Friendship

Josh: The Daily Talk Show, episode 68. Tommy Jackett.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: And I'm Josh Janson. I feel like I, when I do the intros, I say your name and never make it clear that I'm talking.

Tommy: True. Well, if you've just tuned in, this is my voice. My name's Tommy.

Josh: And I'm, uh, I'm Josh. And together we're The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's not rehearsed.

Josh: Um, it wasn't. I think you can tell. Hey, I saw a tweet before and it got me thinking.

Tommy: It's how all good conversations with your best mates start out.

Josh: It said, this guy says he's a minimalist YouTuber.

Tommy: All right, what does that mean?

Josh: It's just like a fucking does videos and he pushes the whole minimalism thing.

Tommy: Okay, sorry, I thought you meant he makes minimal videos.

Josh: It's a bit of that vibe.

Tommy: He's very tidy as a YouTuber.

Josh: He says. He tweeted, making a strong effort to not feel guilty if I don't follow my friend's work on social media. Just because we're friends, it doesn't always mean I have the time or interest to consume your content. Less distractions online and more value placed on in-person friendships. Smile.

Tommy: Fair enough. I know some best mates that haven't listened to this podcast. Yeah, and I couldn't care. If I cared, I fucking wouldn't start.

Josh: So I guess the question is, what makes a good friend? Someone tweeted and they said, if you can't count on your friends to consume your content, who can you count on?

Tommy: Okay, that's not The Minimalist.

Josh: No, he's the other guy. I'm not looking at your shit. Yeah, so, um, yeah, no, what do you— what's your take on friendship? What do you value?

Tommy: I've got a best friend who is possibly the flakiest of friends. Yeah, but he's my best friend and he's one of my longest flends.

Josh: Flaky flends. He's a flaky flend.

Tommy: And I could imagine he's not listening to this, so yeah, sure, it's okay. I don't need it, and I'm not even outing him. I just, I, I understand what I get from him. Yeah, and it's, it's enough.

Josh: Have you had a conversation about like, man, you're flaky? No.

Tommy: I think he knows it. I think he totally knows it. And it's almost— I think when a person can really be seen to be flaky is when they're trying to be— to give you something that they can't.

Josh: Yeah. And so they're trying to be the best person of themselves.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And they're still falling short.

Tommy: Yeah. So it's almost like, yeah, your expectations of them are too high. They're trying to meet it and fucking it. And it's this— yeah, I don't— and I think that's very very introspective on the situation. I don't know, he wouldn't think that, and I only kind of had that thought then. But I was like, you know, if I was saying, you need to meet me here at this time, you know, like, I know it's just like we, we fit in when we fit in, but if it's my fucking wedding or it's my bucks party or it's my birthday, he's there.

Josh: Celebrations, he likes it. He likes free cake.

Tommy: He leaves straight after cake every time. No, no, but like, and that's what a true friend I think is, right? But I've also no, you know, established— I think now 30, nearly 30 in September. September the 1st.

Josh: I'm gonna be away for your 30.

Tommy: Are you away?

Josh: Fucking hell, that's sad.

Tommy: We can come back for it.

Josh: Yeah, you know, maybe you can just come to Europe. A real friend would come back. Just come to Europe.

Tommy: Um, but where was I going with that? I was, I was saying, um, you're 30, you're going to be 30 soon. Oh yeah, and I think I've found that the friendships that haven't been as strong have kind of fizzled, tapered or fizzled off. But I've had these ones that are like, you know, really enhanced and it's a cool new stage. Yeah, um, it's— yeah, I love, I love, I love friends. I've wanted to make a video about friends, how fucking great friends are.

Josh: Yeah, I have a funny relationship with friendship. As a general idea, I think. Like, I think that I've, um, gone through stages of, uh, like expecting too much, having a, having a flaky friend, not getting what I expected out of the friendship, and just getting fucking annoyed. It's almost like what we talked about with me, where I'm like, I'll say yes, yes, yes. And so it's that thing of like, I'll be flexible, flexible, flexible, and then it gets to a tipping point where it's like, fuck you, you can't even like respond.

Tommy: I think this is without looking at you and your situation, but I always have been cautious of the people who have always had falling outs with people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So it's like their friends are very fleeting.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it just—

Josh: and that's why I definitely have identified that, um, yeah, there's the, um, you— I feel like I have different levels of friendship. So I'd never— I have I am one of extremes. So, I feel like I've had, like you have extreme friends where you like hang out all the time for like a few weeks. And once it goes over that part, I feel like I've got these, you know, maybe 6 or 7 friends that I've had like 2 years of like being really close with here and there. And then you just like move, like geographically it gets harder. But the awesome thing is those relationships still stay strong. You speak on the phone, all that type of thing.

Tommy: Well, I moved away for 2 years, so even though I was 2 hours away, I didn't go home and definitely didn't see people as much as I did. And fuck, you get back and people are the same. It's like you go on your trip, you get back, everyone's living their life.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And they feel like, fuck, where have you been?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And the friendship we'll just pick up from where it left off.

Josh: Yeah, and it's the, um, I think the expectations. I reckon I was someone, I think, who had like, uh, you know, just that, that friend, like those cases that you're talking about where you do, uh, have not even a falling out— falling out is too strong of a word— but you just feel like it's that thing of if you feel this connectedness and then you feel the opposite you feel it in a big way, right? So if you go from having a relationship where you're spending lots of time together or on the phone or whatever it is, when that change happens, it does— like, you do feel it.

Tommy: And when I say it about people having fallout, I've had them. Yeah, but I'm so glad that I had them. Yeah, but I haven't had them in— yeah, in—

Josh: I think you grow out— I think that it's a, it's a thing that you develop. Like, I think everyone has relationship troubles with friendships and all that sort of thing. But with every single one, you learn a few things, and you learn things about yourself and how you react. And, um, yeah, but I just think that I've, um— it has been an area which, for me, for instance, I think that I was— I would fall into the category of being someone who's helpful And because I was helpful, people would— I would allow myself to, you know, be available. So I'd say, hey, if you need anything. And so I felt that I would get into these sort of friendships where I was just fucking doing all of this stuff for them.

Tommy: Um, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. And then they can even become emotionally reliant on you. And so you set these bad boundaries. I've learned a lot about friendships for me personally with women, um, since being with Amy. And it's, you know, come— Amy and I have gone through a lot. Like, I've had a lot of girlfriends, um, in the past, but what I established was that there was some pretty, um, emotionally reliant friendships with girls. And it was so funny because I, like, looking back on them, yeah, I can see it. In the time, I was like, oh, whatever, that's my mate, you know. But then they're like You know, and the people I'm talking about, I've had falling outs with. Yeah, because I shifted the relationship.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And these weren't sexual or fucking anything, it was mates, and I thought it was chummy mates.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But when you start shifting the dynamic of the friendship, they fell apart big time. And, and maybe because I wasn't, you know, I didn't communicate it in the right way. And so there's definitely things to play on my behalf.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I, I really found it, and I've given that advice to some friends around emotional reliance in relationships because a friendship is not just chummy, it's like so many different things. Like I get an emotional exchange from you as a guy, yeah, and you know, and then I miss that. It's like, and so there's a reliance or there's a, you know, I just like it. And so, so it's so layered, like if you break down what friendship actually is.

Josh: And you can spend so much time as well with them, right? And it's like I think that the challenging bit is that there is a big reward to community and friendship and relationships. And I wonder whether there is a shift that— like, the funny thing is, anytime I say anything where there's a shift happening or whatever it is, it's a shift in my reality. Because fuck, as long as there's been people, there's been people problems. And the people problem, there's only a fucking short list of what they could be. Um, and so I think that there's— seeing that tweet, um, there feels like there's an individualistic nature, um, and maybe it's a sort of from American culture, I'm not sure, but, um, this sort of me, me, me, um, yeah, which I don't necessarily— which I, which I struggle to reconcile.

Tommy: I love, as I've got to 30, nearly 30 again, you're away for my birthday, are you?

Josh: Yes, I am.

Tommy: Fuck, that's big plans.

Josh: I know, sorry.

Tommy: Yeah, so I'll livestream it for you. I love friendships that have been there from the start. Like, fuck it, it's one thing I've been loving recently. Like James, my best mate who works here, in my office building. He and I have been friends since we were 12 or 13, known each other for a long time.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But we've grown together, you know, like looking at your friend's achievements and go, fuck, I'm so proud of that.

Josh: Yeah. And then because you saw from the— and that's how I feel with Bree and our relationship. We've been together for over 10 years. And so imagine when we were 17 years old getting together, like we have been through adulthood together.

Tommy: So cool.

Josh: Yeah, so we have been able to live in the reality which was, you know, growing up in fucking— going to Hallam Senior Secondary and, and being in that world, and then, you know, living at my parents' place, to then saying, okay, let's live in another suburb. Where do we want to live? What's our career? Like, big, big, big questions. What do we want to do for the rest of our life. That has all happened in the last 10 years.

Tommy: Who is like a best friend outside of Bree?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Outside of me, 'cause I know I'm fucking number one on Find My Friends.

Josh: It's true.

Tommy: Have you got one from childhood or?

Josh: No one from childhood. I think— They're all cucks. Exactly, they're all cucks. No, I think best friends would be, if I'm just sort of thinking about it, Blaj. So him and I, you know, when I started my first sort of proper business outside of high school, when I finished high school, I was 18 years old, and he was— his business partner was a guy named Aaron Rutley, who funnily enough works at Envato now. He's big in sort of the WordPress space. And I caught up with Aaron, and this Blaj guy was his business partner, and I wanted a website built, and we got along really well., and I just started working out of their office. They let me sort of hot desk from there, and then we just kept a friendship going. He lives out in the suburbs and we speak a couple of times a month. And so that's one of those examples of, yeah, a really good friend. And then, you know, and then there's, uh, um, Naysan, who, you know, I travelled with for, you know, If you totaled up the amount of time we've spent travelling together, it's probably close to 6 months of just traveling, being in a hotel room.

Tommy: Definitely heightens your friendship.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Training with somebody at the gym. I train with Tommy D. Yeah. And I was thinking about, like, I thought about this week he messaged me, mate, we're training. And I was like, he's pursuing me, you know, to get me on board.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: For something that he does and loves. And I was like, fuck it, I feel grateful for that. And like the solid hour that we get together, it's just us. We're just fucking in our, in our world in the gym. Yeah, talking fucking, you know, talking about life, everything. And it's like, though, there's definitely training, exercising with somebody brings you pretty close together with them.

Josh: And I think like building, building things in general, right? So with Blahj, like if I was to break down— and then I've also, uh, got my mate, uh, Cameron Box, him and I connected back in 2007 on a film shoot.

Tommy: This is Fifi Box's—

Josh: yeah, yeah. So I was friend, like, good friends with Cam well, well before I was working, uh, in radio, uh, with, with his sister. And, um, yeah, Cam and I have been friends for longer than the same amount of time that I've known Bree. And that's just been a friendship that's been ongoing and we've always, you know, it's one of those good examples of a friendship that you'll go through moments of seeing each other every single week for, you know, 6 months and then you won't hear from each other for 6 months. Like it's that sort of, and it's good and it's just like picks up, you know, it's sort of that cliché of, you know, just, you know, the thing with friendships is it's about, you know, you could spend 12 months apart, but then when you're in the same room together, it just picks up where it is. Is that Lynn Jansen talking? It's every meme that I felt like the good quote fucking meme voice. But no, I think, and I get different, like I give and get different things from all those different friendships. So for Blahj, it's fucking, we're talking revenue. How much money did you make this month? What are you fucking like? Should I do this or that? Or what are you doing here? Or hey, I've got this prototype. Can you build this thing? I'm wanting to do video. It's that type of conversation. It's around like fucking entrepreneurial type stuff. It's around fucking, you know, fuck the man, fucking, it's about fuck the man, all that sort of thing. And then, yeah, Naysan, it's completely different. It's like a Persian restaurant. Yeah, exactly. It's about like, he's my, yeah, he's my bit of culture, right? He teaches me about like, he, He's lived in 12 countries. He's, uh, religious. His, his faith is Baha'i. He spent his whole job, um, you know, he does part-time work for Envato, but his main job is managing, uh, content for his faith. So doing like, um, and he spent time in Israel, uh, volunteering there, and he provides a completely— he describes himself as a third culture kid, which is someone who's like born somewhere, raised somewhere else, living somewhere. Like, it's like this sort of— and so he lived in Chicago— sorry, was born in Chicago. His dad was a doctor. They moved to Papua New Guinea, which is like a fucking remote area. And, um, and then, you know, uh, was there for a lot of his childhood in an international school. It was very interesting speaking to one of his friends from school days. He's living in the Gold Coast, which is why I was there the other day, and caught up with one of his old friends. And they were saying how I was asking them about PNG, Papua New Guinea, because they— because Nathan's got a bit of fucking post-traumatic stress from it. He can't— he doesn't like, uh, living on the ground floor, always likes being above and all that sort of thing because there was fucking crazy amounts of crime, right? So it's like you just wouldn't— you'd have fucking security and stuff at the ground level, uh, ground, and then you'd be on the first floor. But, um, yeah, his friend, she was— she came with like, you know, a dad who was, um, you know, working for the government and stuff like that. So they had all of these great facilities. They fucking went on, you know, um travelling around PNG, you know, really sort of luxe type of thing. But Naysan's experience was like his dad was, you know, doing service, you know, being a doctor, looking after— so they were going to fucking remote villages and just like, um, uh, yeah. So he's got all of this experience around and just like they would have like guard dog— you'd have to have guard dogs and shit like that. So his, um you know, he saw, you know, dead people, you know, just fucking like dead. He saw his first dead body, you know, before he was a teen and all this sort of thing. So all of those sorts of things, um, well, we're all just—

Tommy: I love thinking about just everybody's just communicating and everyone's got their own perspective on things, and it's just everyone's in their own world in the one world. It's like Yeah, it's great.

Josh: It's recognising everyone's realities. And, um, I think that that's— if I look at all, all of the friends that I do have, it's centred around conversation. And, um, yeah, I think that that's like, you know, uh, Till's a really good friend too, who's a, you know, a filmmaker who, you know, we've— it's all just going on this journey and talking about stuff and That's I think what I've valued. And I think that probably I remember as a kid, you would sort of, I would obsess about it a little bit. I think it was maybe because I was good friends with my teachers. I wasn't necessarily friends with the students, like my peers, like some of the, like, yeah, you've got different types of best friends. You've got ones that like literally I might speak to once a year. But Annette, who was one of my teachers, like, I really think of her as one of my best friends in the sense of—

Tommy: Is this the one that you're walking around the schoolyard with?

Josh: Yeah, seriously, literally, because she, like, we spent, you know, I spent year 7, 8, 9, and 10.

Tommy: Walk in the yard.

Josh: Yeah, walk in the yard. And we would like, you know, would be talking all the time. Her partner, she's got like 3 kids now. Her partner's actually one of the biggest photographers at Getty Images doing all of, so Olympics, Comm Games, AFL Grand Final, he does all of that stuff. But yeah, she's an example of someone who I feel really connected with even though I haven't spoken to her in probably a year.

Tommy: How are you speaking to her?

Josh: Just on like text or whatever.

Tommy: So, at what point, so you've known her for all these years, at what point do you transition out and ask your teacher for their number?

Josh: Do you see how weird that is? Yeah, well, I think like, I have a book, to give you an idea, I've got a book that she gave me in 2003, I think it was, or 2004, on screenwriting. I remember, like, so I was, she was, she took over like the student representative council, like she was the teacher position, and I was the president. And I just remember how much support that she gave me, 'cause I was just a fucking weird, annoying student. I just remember like things like, I remember she said, hey, I got you something. She got me this book and it was on screenwriting. It was 2004, so this is fucking— how many years ago is that? That's 14 years ago. And, um, when, when it was school holidays, I would make these films, parodies of, you know, Steve Irwin or Russell Coates, you know, All Aussie Adventures, you know, these Australian TV shows. I would create these videos and she was the first one to say, "Hey Josh, what have you made?" And she would get, you know how the TVs would be on the trolleys? She'd bring a TV and everyone in the class would watch.

Tommy: Watch your video.

Josh: And they would watch all the stuff.

Tommy: No wonder you loved it. She was doing a screening of your own stuff.

Josh: Yeah, she was my biggest supporter when I didn't get, when I was in year 10, 'cause I went to schools like, you know, prep to grade 6, and then went to another school for year 7 to 10, and then again year 11 and 12. Year 12, I was the school captain. Year 10, I went for school captain at my school and got vice captain. And the funny thing about it was I was known as the leader of the school, right? For the long, like, I was the SRC, the Student Representative Council president, from Year 8. So after 1 year of being at the school, I was in— I was the leader of Year 7, 8, 9, and 10 for the student representative council. So I would run all the meetings and all that sort of thing. So it was a sure bet that when I was getting into Year 10 that I would get school captain.

Tommy: And you fucked it. And so what happened, how about this, I was, um, can I guess Yeah, she taught you a lesson and she didn't give you it because she needs you to know that you don't always fucking come first.

Josh: So, and, and that was, and that was great. She was on my side. But there was a vice principal that basically, um, to give you context, I was picking the school captain. I was on the panel to pick the school captains in previous years, right? And anyway, I, uh I was going for school captain and there was no other people going for it. And the vice principal, before they closed the applications, a vice principal asked one of the kids, why isn't anyone going? And the kid said, because Josh Jansen's just gonna get it. And so they go to someone else because of that. Yeah, so the pricks— so the vice principal said, well, I think you should— like, to another kid, I think you should, um, you know, give it a crack.

Tommy: Who was it?

Josh: Uh, James Trinofilo was the guy's name, and nice guy, trying to fill a president position. Yeah, and so, uh, school captain. So yeah, they, uh, they did the announcement, and I just remember the shock, the absolute— it rocked my fucking world because they, they, um, I just remember, like, it's insane thinking about it. I felt like, um, fuck, um Hillary Clinton, you know, like that's how it felt where I was.

Tommy: Uh, did you cry?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have cried a lot. Uh, I don't know if I cried at school. I just remember my heart beating where they, they, uh, were announcing vice captain first.

Tommy: Do you do any fucking work?

Josh: And they said just focus on— I focus all on leadership, curricular, extracurricular activities.

Tommy: So, you know, I actually, like, I left school in year 11, something like that. And fucking, I cannot remember a thought about— I didn't even know that if there was a school captain. There probably was. Yeah, but 100% never came into my mind.

Josh: Yeah, crazy. So much leadership stuff, mate. We did a lot. So anyway, the, um, and like even things like, uh, the state SRC.

Tommy: You know your problem? You peaked in school.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: You're just spending your fucking adult life trying to top what you did in primary school.

Josh: It's very true. No, well, I would have teachers saying like, oh, um, yeah, Josh, you're gonna, you're gonna be famous, you're gonna be doing big things. And I felt that pressure. I remember I said to myself that by the age I'm of 19, I want to be famous.

Tommy: Isn't it stupid?

Josh: Yeah, what is, what does that even mean? But that was a real, like, when you're a kid, that's like a big— fame seems like the biggest thing, you know.

Tommy: I reckon teachers would be too scared to have the relationships like they did 14 years ago with you.

Josh: Yeah, and that—

Tommy: imagine a woman texting a fucking school kid.

Josh: Yeah, well, I mean, we did—

Tommy: sex pest.

Josh: Yeah, well, we didn't have— we weren't texting then.

Tommy: Yeah, that's what I said. How did it transition?

Josh: So it would have just been like— it would have been like— well, so she actually— when I finished year 10, she finished teaching. So she was, uh, basically, um, she basically saw out our years. So she was our home group teacher from year 7 to 10. And she's like, I'm fucking done. And so how about this? So she went to Beacon Foundation.

Tommy: Oh cool.

Josh: So which is, you know, we created a little video on them a few weeks ago. And so she decided she wanted to change. So she went to Beacon Foundation, which is an organisation that connects young people with employment or industry connections. And yeah, we were just on the email. I look at some of the emails that I wrote and they're hilarious, just shitcanning other students, just being like, you wouldn't believe how fat Sophie is now.

Tommy: Oh no.

Josh: And like, Annette was so good about it because she was just like, she knew that I was a weird unit. But, um, so that was the thing, like, we, uh, you know, I remember going to Chadstone Shopping Centre and, you know, meeting her at the food court and she would just cheque in and she assumed a mentor. Yeah, absolutely.

Tommy: I can't stop thinking about those shows I see about the teachers running after their kids. Yeah, but it's a problem, right? This fucking— they like trivialise or like make entertainment out of these stories.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then I can't stop thinking about it when I think about you.

Josh: But the thing— and the thing is, it was so, um, it was a friendship. It's always like— it was such—

Tommy: and it's an older friendship, and I've got lots of older friends now. Yeah. And I love it because it's different perspective. It's a different—

Josh: it was just like, it was one of those things of just being able to talk I just remember like school camp, any opportunities just to have a fucking chat, we'd just be talking about shit. Like, but it was all like, I wonder what now, like what it actually was. But it was definitely about like ambitions and what am I going to do next and what should we do. And like, I was terrible at school. And, um, but I remember she was my science teacher as well. And it was like the, uh, I learned my 20 element, first 20 elements because of it. But I think so, I think teachers have such a powerful role.

Tommy: I think a lot of them fucking take that for granted and don't have their shit together. Yeah, not all of you. Yeah, a lot of the ones I dealt with. Yeah, maybe it was because I was a little shit dealt with, but maybe it was me as well. But you've heard the stories, the contrast in stories. Yeah, teacher think I was going to rob her house when she went away.

Josh: It's not ideal, but I had like, you know, but those relationships were across the board with my teachers. So like I had another teacher, Lynn, who she was, you know, the media teacher, and she was like, you know, I was in learning, I was using Premiere Pro back in 2004. Like I was in the rooms. And so the thing was like, it was just this exciting, and they knew people that like went to the VCA and stuff like that, you'd fucking, and so they had these, it was so interesting because they were so, in some regards disconnected from the industry that they were, but they had this one friend who was at— and I got so excited about it. But so many examples of that. I remember also Ian, my teacher in grade 6, and he needed to do a presentation. And basically I stayed back until like 8:30 PM on like, I think it was like a Sunday night, working on a PowerPoint for him. And he like went and got me, uh, Maccas. It was fucking the best.

Tommy: Your dad outsourced his work to you.

Josh: It was fucking great. But I had such— like, thinking about it, even though I was so shit at school, those relationships, like the friendships that I actually genuinely think I had friendships with those teachers, and they really, um, I think that they shaped me in a big way. And they— I got to do things like an exchange programme where I went to a farm and like spent a week on a farm.

Tommy: Is that what they told you?

Josh: Exactly, they told you it was the exchange program.

Tommy: Yeah, get fucking Josh, he's blowing me up on the text and he won't fucking leave me alone. Let's send him somewhere with no reception.

Josh: But I had this connection with a lot of teachers. So for instance, another teacher George, when I was in prep, he would play guitar and he gelled his hair back. So I like gelled my hair back and I couldn't play guitar. But I, um, I could play guitar on your head. Yeah, it was real hard. No, but my, uh, my brother had a guitar, so I'd bring it in and I'd fucking, uh, strum that as he was playing. But I just remember like the, the friendship I felt like I had, like just fucking walking around with him. But also the email, like I remember back in— he left that school, you know, I went— I was in primary school in the '90s I remember like 1997, he left the school and we emailed. Like, how fucking cool is that to think I was emailing in 1997?

Tommy: What was your email?

Josh: I can't remember, but, um, I, uh, no, I can't. The first email I do remember was, uh, coolman10@hotmail.com, but I think I had one like, you know, the teachers had like an education one. And I feel like I had an in-between. Maybe it was my parents' aim at the beginning. I wish I had those.

Tommy: Let's summarise what attributes you look for in a great friend.

Josh: Um, right, so I think that, uh, keep it short. Yeah, uh, ambitious. Yeah, uh, open, uh, adventurous, uh, positive. Enthusiastic. I think those types of traits, like, um, and just have, you know, a hard worker. I want to be around people who are like— and so I've got like really close friends that aren't necessarily that, and it's a different relationship. I go and do like different activities with them. I'm not talking business and fucking revenue with them, and I think it's good to have a mix. What about you?

Tommy: Yeah, what makes up a good friend is someone who's definitely your cheerleader but will challenge you Yeah, and that's James for me. We have the most fucking frustrating conversations. Yeah, but I know he's on my side. Yeah, and then I'm like, fuck, I love that. That was good. You're a fucking asshole and annoying, but I felt like that was awesome. Yeah, and so that's important for me. So, um, someone who can definitely talk. Yeah, and have a conversation, and it's not just surface level. Not for all friendships. I like surface level conversations at some point.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I also like going a bit deep.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And just talking life.

Josh: And that's where our friendship has, you know, landed, is it? And that's why we decided to do this podcast, because it was like two dudes on this similar journey trying to work this stuff out with different skills, and we're able to help each other through all of that. And I think, um, you know, this podcast is, you know, a celebration of friendship. I've said that before, and this is of the audience that we have are like friends that we're, we're starting to interact with, and we're starting to know their names, and we're starting to get emails and talk about them. And maybe if it doesn't matter where the fuck you are in the world, you might have— you might be around a bunch of cunts at your workplace and you fucking hate it, but you can put on your headphones and listen to some like-minded people talking shit for, you know, 35, 40 minutes.

Tommy: Yeah, mutual respect is great. I think that's an underlying tone of a friendship. Like Ryan John, um, who was on this week. Yeah, we just similar paths, mutual respect for each other. I think he's great, he thinks I'm great, I think. Yeah, um, and that creates respect.

Josh: Respect is an important one.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Thanks for listening. Send us an email, please, and your friend applications. Yeah, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Have a good one.