- April 17, 2018
The Daily Talk Show — Tuesday April 17 (Ep 66) – Josh Janssen & Tommy Jackett. –
Going viral, clickbait and giving pushback.
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
Josh’s YouTube Channel – http://youtube.com/joshjanssen
Tommy’s YouTube Channel – http://youtube.com/tommyjackett
It's the daily Talk Show
Episode 66 and who would have thought we would have brought an intro when
I just realized I was trying to create some sort of tone or some sort of melody and we've already got a song playing underneath this right now so it's gonna be it sounds like that will sound like sheet Tell me and Josh
Do you like what I just did there put your name first thanks I think that sounds better than you think Tony and Josh Josh and Tommy yeah
Josh and I like Josh and Tommy and you like Tony and Josh that's nice as never decide anyway, it's called the talk show it is your because you're replaceable matter fact you off at any minute. It's true, it's good to hedge your bets. Just quickly, I like to give some like little updates around how people of marketing in this day and age through LinkedIn had a few personalized emails actually they were personalized all the most templates of emails sent through to me, but this one
so LinkedIn, you get like a request to be a friend or you requested Bray this morning. She said
to me jackets just added me on LinkedIn. I don't know why we weren't together as friends not together in real life. But anyway, so I had to go request me. Dave Yeah. diver. And you know, when you request someone you can put like a note that is based on the facial features they obviously so it's not that impersonal. So you can be like, Hey, dude would love to connect with you. So this guy Dave let me just run you through this. Dave first sent the connection plus a note that said hi Tommy. This year I'm making an effort to expand my personal connections and reach people who share my passion it appears from your profile that we have similar interests I'd love it if we could join each other's networks and get some amazing opportunities as a result dive I didn't I didn't write anything I just accepted because it's it's a it's a interesting guy on LinkedIn I just go hard it's old school Facebook just lock in and follow him just commenting on people's just going hard and so I accepted him and then he sent another one through thanks for the connection Tommy let's make the most of this opportunity and see how we can help each other get opportunities we otherwise wouldn't all the best Cheese Day I don't know if it's your time but he sounds like a fucking pain in the ass.
It's just setting me up to say he's a he's you
know he's he's okay. But what do you think of that? Like it's very not it's not personalized it's copy and paste. It's almost a template. Yeah, and it's he's a filmmaker and amazing coffee drinker. That's what he says. Yeah,
I think that if you're gonna go like going back to actually it also reminds me closing the loop on two things still need to write back to to that person who wrote to me that really nice. A male who I said did a really good job. haven't written back. I can't remember that.
Remember you reminding yourself here
yet? But also another closed loops? It's completely irrelevant to this. Yes. Bray told me that she paid my ambulance cover already. So when I did that episode, and said I need my ambulance. Cover it. She was yelling through the speakers. I fucking You idiot.
No. So yes. emails. Tone sending messages. Dave I think it's okay. But the dots are connecting. I think
he's, I don't like that approach. It's okay. Is it is it better than just connecting blind? Maybe it's know when the the It feels like it's a fucking copy and paste job. It did it. It's actually probably worse in some regards. And just not saying anything at all. Because he's running do these cards. He It sounds like you're in a fucking sales funnel. Yeah, it's in this like, relationship funnel, right? Yeah,
I accepted stage two. Yeah. Like, what's third base? Like, that's,
you know, so, yeah, I don't necessarily like it. I also think,
you know, there's just, there's something about actually, like, if you he's really wanting to connect, actually connect, consume some of the content and have something to say about it.
Because I think that I understand what he's doing. But it's at the very first level, it's like, going to a meetup. He's, he's at the made up, he's saying, Oh, you know, we should connect and, or something like, all of that shit. When people like, Oh, we should connect, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's, that's not being a connected thing. That sort of talking around networking is being a bit too far. He's being meta.
Just outside of that.
That's all I wanted to talk about. Dive. I want to give him any more. Yeah,
but that's fine. I have been getting LinkedIn stuff where it's people saying, though, add me. And then they'll say, I've got this new music royalty free
website. I think it'd be great for filmmakers the same guy because I quizzed him on I said, How is this any better in at least I Oh, oh, yes. Yeah. You said that you said that?
No, I didn't really
know the exact same thing. It was a dude based in Sydney. Yeah. Berlin and Sydney. Yes. Yeah. And it was complicated. Because I, he's like, sign up. And I went on to it. And I was like, I don't listen to this stuff without putting my credit card details. Yeah.
Well, how about this, I saw on LinkedIn. Someone did a post with a screen, grab this conversation on a which was a message a guy said, Hey, blah, blah, blah, like to connect. And then three days later, you don't even have the decency to arrive back.
And so this guy actually sent back like, a really nice message been like, Hey, man, I've actually been a Why didn't send the message, you know, but
do we need to be running back to everyone? No, no. And I was listening to someone talk about going viral. It was on Matt de valence poker shadow
mountain first. Surely, you've
it's good podcast, the ground up show. Yeah, have a listen to it. He He's great. Because he's an amazing filmmaker. And he's bridging that gap in probably the best way that I've seen. I have video and audio content. And every single time I have it up on the TV Bray found fan girls and says I just love I love his color grade. So I really love he's got like rides. Yeah,
you hate that. I'm just like, what's what do you think Mike was good or bad? He's lot. Exactly. That's a lookup table. It's like a color grade setting that you just drop on the footage. If you just wondering. That was a really talking about
that. That was a really good
I should I should know if I can feel
it was like two years ago using these bullshit lot.
Put it as in front, you know what happens? A lot
of the end. That's good. Anyway,
one of these guests was talking about going viral and
braced. Just a quick summary of how she went viral. It wasn't just like making a video. Like what you and I doing it go viral. She organized some event in those fucking all these big celebrities performing in Coachella. No, no, no, no, no. So some guy got like, shamed online on this Facebook page. Yeah. And then she tweeted out, like putting support behind this guy. Because he was like, a bad dancer. And then a lot. Let's get together and dance. And. And they ended up doing this adventure. I think she was on like, fucking Ellen. All these crazy shit. Like, legit viral. Yeah,
she was talking how it was like, a, it's like a full time job. Like, she literally like the amount of inbound that she was getting, once it happened. Took her days to get back to Yeah, and so that's, that's someone who's obviously not a star, or not a celebrity, or doesn't experience this on a daily basis, and then falls into it. And then like, so my point is, if you will be, you wouldn't be getting back to 90% of the people 99% of the people. Yeah, but there
is I think there is something to be said with your the early I think it's picking your mediums, what medium, you can be really good at Seth Godin direct servers, the good with email, they'll get back to that aren't too fucking social media that well, but if you send them an email, they'll get back, unless you if I can request Seth Godin on the daily talk show. He won't necessarily right back, but no. So but interestingly, about that example of going viral, it's almost touching on what will speaking to Ryan john about yesterday, where the
she's gone viral for this thing. And it's like this hockey stick growth, which you know, that startup terminology of just fucking peaks go super big, really quick. And then a couple of things happen, all of that audience is going to be a certain type of audience and if it's disconnected from what you do day to day, so if she's a video person, you know, this guest and they being celebrated for the event, how do you sort of how do you leverage going forward, but also that that vitality will subside will come down? Yeah. And it's interesting. I wonder what the residue ease of that like, what, you know, what do you What's the long lasting effects of going viral? Yeah,
well, look at the Obama thing. There's like a drip effect from that. Yeah, as far as like, an instant hype, and radio interviews and TV stuff, and then it fades. But there's still touch points along the way. Well, there's
still the story, the story always remains. And so I think at the beginning, it becomes about the tattoo
I got still there.
thing is that there's the, I think that through this process, you selling different things. So the beginning, you're selling the entertainment value, the actual thing, and then I feel like a year later, it becomes a retrospective where you're talking about this is how I did the thing, you deconstruct it, and you say, hey, these are the five things that I did to be able to get people talking about it. Yeah,
so I'm thinking yesterday I made this video hasn't done that well, and I thought it would do better. Was this the firewall fake it till you make it, make it? Sure. So let's talk about that. How that premise relates to me, and how I put it to use Yeah, when I was young and naive, and how it sort of worked for me in some respects. But I spent more time on that video than I did on the iRobot video and the video in mad and this hasn't done anything, right. Yeah, but I like I'm more proud of the value the fights the manga video in terms of like, for me to have to tell that story
and reflect and bring all these elements in, it was like, I was challenging myself, it was harder, it was actually harder to shoot and edit that. And it was more simple than the Obi Wan Well, I think that the angle of the game isn't like the, the metric that you're looking at in life isn't just views. And if it is just views you there's heaps of ways of like, you could be a full time fail video guy where you specialize in filming, people getting fucked up, like falling off bikes and stuff. Yeah, being a jacket ass, right? There was an audience, there are so many audiences out there where you could if that was your number one metric. And your only metric. However,
like this is an example of like this. A lot of things at play. And what that reminds me of is I remember doing a video
of this person and was like a little short documentary that I made a few years back. And we decided that before we would release that, Doc, oh, we would do like
why we were while we were there filming them. Or like, let's get a bit of extra content. So we did like a little q&a with them that Q and I had about the same, if not more views than the doc Oh, that took, you know, two days to film a day to wet it versus the q amp A, which was like 20 minutes at the end of filming. And that we just got up that night. Yeah, yeah,
it's totally right. And my metric was, and
for me, personally, I got a lot of satisfaction out of making it and then being able to look back like I for me, that video talking about that fake it till you make it
what it did was like it may it formed it It brought together thoughts that I had on this thing and solidified them and and I was able to articulate it if not account right now. But I articulated the fake it till you make it premise within my life. And I'm proud of being able to create that. And I think creators, it's like the piece of art that the sales for the most might not necessarily be the one you think. Yeah,
it's all about timing as well. Yeah. And leveraging what's happening. So Oh, bike was a hot topic. The media wanted to be covering it. Yeah. And you gave them content, which really fitted perfectly into that. The thing is that if you look at the conversations that you actually have on the mainstream media, it's not necessarily like meaningful conversations, like we spoke about that when
my friends, the minimalists, we're on the project and I had the privilege of going around Australia and New Zealand filming them doing their talks. And then you hear them within the context of a night show where they have five minutes, and it's a quick chat bunch of
goofs interview like, it's lovely, goofs is 00,
but it's a it's a different format. Yeah. And so it's also working out like, what is the what's the goal, and all of this,
and I don't think like is the right approach to actually was speaking to Ryan about this after the show yesterday. It's that thing of
thinking that everything's going to be going viral, like positioning, everything is going viral, and then that heightens everything. So everything has to be super fucking creative, and what sort of thing versus being like, Okay, this is
I'm doing this just because I'm working on my craft. I think it's a good story that is not necessarily going to be a viral piece. And yeah,
you cannot think like that. It's it's it. cripples Yeah,
cripples you thinking. Thinking that everything's going thinking yeah, everything's you
just gotta, you just gotta make Yeah, and I was
talking to a client of mine about they created a bigger piece and it's all sort of related to created like a bigger documentary, nine minute mini documentary style. Yeah, that they want people to look at. And they wanted to sort of cut together this trailer for it. So one video essentially that would promote it and the thinking around that is going the trailer might actually get more views than the actual documentary Yeah, and that's all people will say. So my thought around it was cut the cut the documentary cut five bits of the documentary and put them onto Instagram. That's where they wanted to post it as touch points. Yeah, because it's amazing what people miss. Yeah, and what you think just because you put together one video and put it out there it's like people say it but yeah, you can't you can't
predict where people stop and actually consume this stuff. Yeah,
I think it's that people
have an idea of the destination
and a lot of times they're wrong on way so they're like okay we want to remember the example being when I was working in radio doing digital content for the drive show fee faint angels here in Australia they we would be cutting up these teasers right so it's like say would be doing a video we're doing like a main video and would cut up a teaser and put that out the day before for the problem being that social media doesn't do well with tasers like it's like don't waste our fucking like when the contents there show us the content if I can tasers and I think playing into the algorithm and that type of thing it's like people are there to see the to see the movie not the trailers right so that was one lesson I remember so I think that what I got out of it is that every piece of content needs to on a platform that its own so that means don't fucking pixelate a photo on Facebook to try and get people to click through to see the actual photo on the website which was fucking common practice. Yeah, you need to give them value on the actual This is why I think anyway on the platform. Yeah. Which then will get them to naturally want to explore it. Fucking look at this time this way. If what if that's the only time you've got their attention that
teaser is the only time in that day that they're going to have they're going to be looking at your content and you've just serve them up half baked basic content. Well,
that's why I think clickbait is so hilarious because it's, it's the the premise of clickbait is we are going to have a headline that's probably detached from the actual story to get people to view the story it's like the ultimate oversell under deliver yes which might get people to click through but will it create like a good brand will build a great relationship so I think there is I think that the Han balance ease represents representing things because Clickbank works like if you've got a good story, you want to have a title that works well with the story. So it's like when we're trying to work out what to call Ryan, the podcast with Ryan john yesterday it's okay what can we say that's going to pique someone's interest without them thinking that they gonna get this fucking like crazy story? And what do we do it just an honest looking for a birth mother was. And so by being honest, then you might get less, maybe you get 70% of the clicks that you would have gotten. However, those 70% will appreciate it a lot more was
a trust hasn't been broken to the amount of times I get furious about, I'd say within the first paragraph of what they've clicked linked me to. Yeah, what they've promised and then you get there and then you read through is like, What are you talking about? I heard on on in the car on the way here this morning. The host the radio host hooking. So it's a thing you know, you know, you want to look forward to sell times, Tea Time spent listening to a sale yet. And so you're trying to sort of make the person stick around for longer the he was coming up this person go gave a hook about Drake's got some big news. And we're going to bring it to you in the next 15. Pick up your iPhone and just search for exactly hooking. It's almost irrelevant, like you're in a cab, or if you're in a car, you get someone next to you. Can you search that? Like my thought instantly on the look that up? Yes, right away. I don't want to fucking white 15 minutes. And so yeah, you pointed like, how about dishing up a solid piece of content every 15 minutes or just constantly bringing value? Yeah,
it's it's the equivalent of like, if you're a supermarket and you have three planets of strawberries that each day go for $1 right to fucking bargain. Yeah, we're but there's only fucking three planets of it. And then so you put up the front of the building strawberry $1 upon it. Anyone after those three patents are gone. It can be fucking pissed. Because again, a rock up. And I've noticed that those things that like cafes or things like that, where it's like a I remember I stopped going to applies code in a rush that was next to my old office in the city when I was working in in Bartow because they had this
breakfast special. And so I could get one food item and a coffee for X amount. And then all of a sudden, I would get the span of Kopitar every time and one day. They're like oh, spend a couple is not part of the deal. Oh, fuck off. I was like bro. First, it was a first it was being slow. When you call yourself in a rush. And now you know, give me the span a cough, but you can go fuck yourself. I never went there again.
But that is being honest from the get go. He's going to do and I think that it makes people uncomfortable. Like I remember hearing I was a was in the situation where I was in office. It was sort of like an open plan office. And someone was doing the job interview in the in the office. I could hear everything and was fucking I loved it. Right. Yeah. Because I can now Yeah, because I wasn't in that. Like, I was tweeting, I wasn't in the content. Like I was sort of seeking outside as an outsider hearing it and it was fascinating being like, this person there was being interviewed saying, I love working with teams, that's where I'm best what contains blah, blah, blah, the the interviewer said, Now the reason a lot of work, whether it can be alone time and the interviewees like great because I also love
and so there is on if if the girl had just said, you know, the interviewee had just said,
you know, like, that doesn't seem like it's the right feet. I think that that would have a lot more cutthroat and that's where as service providers, the criticism that that breeze sort of gives me or break questions me on is when I say no to things, or when I give pushback, or I say, you know, your business
is called push back production. Exactly. No, but it hasn't he filmed anything yet, because there's too much
not doing a bra. No, but the thing is, and Bray being in the business more has seen what happens when you don't give that push back. So if you're the person that says Yes, yeah, we'll make it work. And there are alarm bells going off. So you haven't got the correct creative brief that you need to be able to do the best job, it's always hard to say no. And the in the creative process, there is going to be a level of ambiguity that you're that is just naturally going to happen. But you need to have and this is the difference I think between someone who's a seasoned professional and someone who doesn't have as much experience is someone with not as much experience will be quick to set quote for something. So yeah, this is how much it's gonna cost. Yes, I'll do it. Whereas if you haven't worked out how many cameras you need? Or like, yes, how many deliverables and it's being confident in what you're
where those lines are? Because clients naturally don't want friction. They just want someone to do it. Yeah. But it's realizing when you need to have those friction points. So when the tone of the emails like, Oh, no, we don't have those details. Yeah, like, what does it like one that I had the other day was I said, I need to know whether is it going to be you for deliverables point of view? Are you wanting one long video of this or you wanting shorter pieces? And they're like, God, does that really matter? Yes,
we'll get does. It's, it's hot in those moments, because there is that sort of questioning of yourself, which is like, Am I being unreasonable? Fucking why it's, um, I think for people that they, you know, getting videos from people, I'd be skeptical if they're not asking you. Yeah. details and giving you quite some stuff. Yeah, because you don't fact I've become the metaphor guys. Well, now. Yeah. Or can you build me a house is short, 300 grand? What? I didn't tell you what it was. Yeah,
exactly. And that's, I think the,
the thing that's happening a lot at the moment where it's, um, there's a lot, especially if someone's being honest in their pricing. They're going to ask a lot of questions up front, right? If someone says, if someone says, Hey, can you build me a house, I want it and they put some extra scope around it. Like, we want it to be environmentally friendly, want it to be all natural products? And they say, okay, it's going to cost 1.5 million to do right. Yes, they might be completely legit, but they're going to be making a lot more fucking margin because the agreement there, okay, we're going to play in, like, the, the boundary that we're using the boundary line is the budget, whereas if they said, Okay, yeah, environmentally friendly, would you like these types of tiles? Or would you like, you know, this, this type of flooring
all of those questions, then they can say, Okay, well, if we're, if we're going to make this home, you know, with Florida ceiling class, then that's going to cost X amount. But we can make savings in X, Y, and Zed, and you're if you're not the fact and builder and you're working with the builder. The builder does this every fucking day. So they know they've got the contacts and they can find opportunities, they can say, we actually know we have a company that does the pre canned glass, we can get all we're doing this show, it allows for creativity.
The the business that I've experienced this dealing with them is like that. Say yes. And then internally scramble. And you say it is PR agencies? Yeah, I feel like there have to be seen to be putting out Yes, we're doing it's all good. We got this is fucking bringing the vibe. Yeah. And then it's just like this nightmare inside. Yeah. And I've experienced that with quite a few people. Who
in the PR industry? Well, I think agencies in general, right? Because when you're communicating, we're one shop one stop shop. When your one stop shop? How the fuck do you say know what you're selling there is we do everything and you are you are going to attract clients that expect a yes every single time. And so that could work. So there's got to be a lot of margin. And it's got to be like, okay, we're going to get a couple of million dollars off this company every year. And then we're going to use that money to get resources or hire people who are specialized. So if all of a sudden you go from doing their social media, and they say, We want you to do their email, you know, email marketing, then there needs to be a few hundred thousand dollars buffer there that they can just say hi. And then they're an email marketer and the client doesn't have to worry, you know, it's definitely not the business. I'm going to build as in
that vibe, that sort of, because I know what it feels like personally. Yeah, to be going Fuck, we need to work this out. Yeah, problems a great problems that need solving is what we were in the game of solving problems. Videos are just a problem. Yeah. And so I'm quitting of
fucking annoying now. But it is that it is that balance. Because I think that we're both reasonable. We both like a lot like part of the reason or the biggest part of the reason is that I want clients to be happy. And if I think that there's too much sort of ambiguity, there's too much unknown. There's not a focus on defining what successes. It's like, I saw Craig Harper did a Instagram post your mate coach and all around nice guy did his What? lessons, whiteboard lessons, whatever he calls on industry, is that whiteboard less Etsy? Cynthia? Yes, you did want it where it's like, be the person who finishes things, right? And I think the one of the interesting things around that is, if we were to really deconstruct it, why don't why on things done, why don't they finished? And for me, I think it's actually the definition of done defining what done us because the, the loose ends that can happen when you're in a business where it's like, oh, yeah, we want this extra thing, or you want that sort of thing. That's the area where things never really get done. Because there isn't a clear definition. Yeah, so I feel like the Getting Things Done having a complaint actually required a piece of work at the start every single time you say yes, to say to something, have a have a mutual discussion, and have a mutually decided done point. When is this done? When we hand you over this file? This is when it's done. Yeah, I think that that that is really important. And whenever I've felt uncomfortable, it's when you've said yes to all these things. And it's just and we all everyone who's in any creative field knows that and it can be enticing initially, because like, yeah, we're just, we're gonna work on this until you're happy. And that, but that's a fucking hard done point, right? Whereas if you say, okay, version one will be done at this point. And then we're going to go on to version two. And then having those milestones create boundaries. And within those boundaries, you can actually define success. Did we complete it on time to think I hate the most is not having a clear deadline on things any client tells you were fucking easy. Create your own deadline and communicate it. Yeah, if someone says where he was saying, okay, with my
with my timeline, it needs to be completed and done by the end of April. And then because otherwise, you can fall into this trap where it's like, you know, if I can charge 10 grand for a job and you thinking it's going to take two weeks and then the clients easy and you six months later, and they're still like scrambling or finding things not doing work. But that's like cognitive load that
you have to think about. It's always good to offload a load.
great way to finish up again, a lot of metaphor. How many? How many got to daily talk show everyone machine, Michelle emailed us and said that
it was a bit hot on old old mate Ryan's mom with these with these three word hang up. Yeah. Can't hear. It was good gear. And it is funny. It's funny. The dynamics? Like I'm not a blokey blog I've never been a block it. I've never been here for one of the boys but Yeah, I do. I do notice the the dynamic perhaps it's like a hit me hit. start tracking nodding. I grew up it was a few guys, this is like, let's, I think it's you. I don't think I did it too much yesterday. But I was like, there's that desire to have some zingers. Yeah, I can make everyone laugh. Yeah.
So I stopped matching other people because everyone's doing it and then you bring it and if you're one out, man. Yeah,
I'll bring him a it affords it should ask you bring a better one. It's it's the best thing I ever wanted to die talk show. Thanks for listening. See guys.