Storyboarding your video

Josh: It's the Daily Talk Show, everyone, brought to you by fresh—

Tommy: no, not— I'm just drinking a freshly ground coffee from 7-Eleven.

Josh: Hashtag cup rescue. What is it? What does it say?

Tommy: It's probably because they're selling so many fucking cups of coffee that they're now having to do their bit in actually not contributing to landfill. No, I think this is— it's something to do with over 1 billion cups end up in landfill this year because they are not recycled. That's why 7-Eleven is partnering with Simply Cups to establish cup recycling in Australia. So it is. It's funny, I didn't even read that. I saw like a few headlines while I was getting the coffee. The coffee cups have changed green.

Josh: It's episode 58, by the way, and we don't have a sponsor yet.

Tommy: It's definitely not 7-Eleven, but fuck, man, there is a lot of wastage when it comes to coffee cups.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, there is.

Tommy: Um, plastic bags are being— fuck, I was literally walking Um, uh, I just had a vision that you had a plastic bag slapped in your face from the wind.

Josh: No, no, I was, I was walking, uh, today and I had a plastic bags and, um, uh, a coffee cup that I just felt like a bit of a scum. But I'll give you a little bit of an insight. I don't know if this, um, it's, it's like, it's not personal, it's not personal. I had someone, um, I posted a picture of me with a coffee cup.

Tommy: One that you just dump in there.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And the person wrote, like Instagram DM'd me and said, "Stop killing the planet, mate." Oh, fuck. And do you know what the thing was? I didn't respond. Not only that, but it's, you know how you accumulate friends that all of a sudden they don't say that they've got anything, like that they've got any issue with you.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's like, mate, I'm noticing that the only time you fucking reach out is to have a go. So I was like, fuck this guy. Like, I've never seen projecting as hard as that.

Tommy: Block and delete?

Josh: No, not block and delete. Like, be nice to his face. Like, I've got no fucking problem with him, but I was just like, oh, you know what, this probably— like, me posting a nice photo of me having coffee with my girlfriend on the weekend, like, I don't sort of need that negativity. I understand, I understand the rationale behind it, but I think if someone had said it, who, if you said it, I'd know that you're probably being tongue in cheek.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But no, there is that thing where it's like, I think people reveal how they're feeling about someone by sometimes the way, and that I feel like is a common thread.

Tommy: I had a, I think a person delete me.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Posted a photo, I was at the Bondi Markets up in Sydney. Awesome Saturday mornings. They've got like the food and fresh produce. It's fucking awesome. Very hipster, and you get a little coffee and sit down on the grass and then walk around. So I walked around, took a photo of a beehive. This company was selling beautiful honey. Yeah, lovely honey. Took a photo because I thought, fuck, this is cool, this kind of looks— this is funky. I posted on Instagram. That's disgusting, keeping bees in cage like that. She's a vegan. And very feisty. Yeah, I think she deleted me. She's dating one of the, um, Australia's best cricketers.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: Actually, she's married to him now, but I don't think she—

Josh: she—

Tommy: but her tone was like— I— and totally ended it there. Yeah, with me on Instagram.

Josh: But I just think it's also being empathetic. Like, I think that there's empathy to the world and there's empathy to people as well. I just think that That specific one actually had more to do with me sort of framing that and being like, ah, it's just picking the moments that you're communicating. I was just like, ah, bro, I don't need, like, I just don't, like, if you see something, it takes a lot to get me to write something like that.

Tommy: I didn't write back to that girl.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like you didn't to this person, but it, I don't think there's much— there's not much I can say. It's like, well, you're kind of right, they're little bees in a cage.

Josh: That's what I was gonna say. I was like, oh yeah, I probably should not use a cup that's, you know, that's not fucking reusable. But also, you could stop being a cunt and get out of my instant direct messages.

Tommy: They maybe just feel like that's their calling. It's their calling.

Josh: You know what, mate? Do something else. Like, I don't think like, so, but anyway, maybe it worked because when I was walking from the shops this morning, I had plastic bag and a coffee cup, but then the classic pushback of me, I'm like, I don't want to get another fucking KeepCup because fuck this guy. I don't want like, it's that thing of like, I'm definitely, you know what, like if I was gonna get a Cape Cup, if I was gonna go fucking, you know, I'm doing it 2 weeks later because this guy, but then I seriously— He really got you, 2 weeks later he's still thinking about his damn— No, he didn't get to me, but I just thought of the hypocrisy. I was thinking, I was like, oh mate, you drive a car, you do all that, like what annoys me is the hypocrisy in this sort of thing. So people like, ah, 'Ah, it's the cups, it's the cups, it's killing,' like, go fuck yourself. Yeah, the, the reality is that it's probably like you driving a petrol— like, there's so many variables to why the Earth is fucked. He, he eats meat, so it's like the water consumption. Yeah, all of that shit. Not to, not to play the fucking vegan advocate, um, but yeah, I, I just felt that in that moment That's why I didn't, it wasn't a per— I didn't take it personally, but it was like a very obvious thing where it's just like, ah, and I think that you'd probably get it from your personality type too, which is I think is when you get to a certain level of public content creation or when you're just sort of out there, I think that people are way more willing to do impersonal things where they're not actually thinking about you and they're thinking about all the others.

Tommy: I'm the guy that's just pulling bikes from the river, remember that? Oh, Bike Specialist. I had people messaging me going, mate, what you're doing with the environment is so great. And I didn't go into it thinking at all about the environment. I thought it was fun and funny.

Josh: Yeah. And then now you're—

Tommy: I'm now spearheading the movement, Josh.

Josh: Environmental warrior.

Tommy: But just on that thing, just, um, closing, closing the loop, the bags, I think today In Australia, in Melbourne at least, Coles and Woolies, uh, it's— if it's just for one bag, they don't give it to you. If you've got multiple bags that you need to fill, they'll give them to you. So it's like they're just trying to— that one-use bag, fuck off. You don't need to take your chocolate home in a fucking plastic bag. I think it's good.

Josh: Yeah, well, what I was thinking about too is it's like the cafes, right? Like, I know that I was being criticised by having a fucking coffee cup. Go fuck yourself again. But the cafe, I don't care that much if I'm enjoying playing this.

Tommy: We'll visit his home later.

Josh: Exactly, we'll fucking, we'll cup him. We'll do the classic cup. No, but I think cafes, like why do we, you know, all these cafes, it seems like they have a responsibility too to be providing other solutions. Maybe I'm just completely— You could easily—

Tommy: it's like, what battle do you want to start? Because there's multiple areas to attack.

Josh: I just think that it's, it's that thing of— it's that— it's like, um, yeah, I don't know, it's, it's everything.

Tommy: Porn— if you think there's an issue there, yeah, look at the camera dudes filming that fucking— how about camera people? It's your fault. Yeah, you're pressing record on the porn.

Josh: Yeah, I, I like the, the analogy there. Yeah, the, um, I wanted to—

Tommy: I saw the analogy is one of your favorites.

Josh: It's, it's this your book, your new book, Smutty Analogies— Smutty Metaphors by Tommy.

Tommy: Yeah, yesterday was my orgy metaphor.

Josh: Yeah, it was. They're very, very smutty. Don't know what's going on. Um, I saw this article which is something that I would do, and it's almost like doing stuff out of spite, right? So an example would be, um, me buying a bunch more coffee cups and taking a fucking Instagram photo of just like a photo of my The coffee cups in a bin.

Tommy: No, on your desk. Yeah. Damn, my desk is getting so cluttered. There's 7 takeaway coffee cups.

Josh: Um, couldn't fit them all in the bin. Um, just to be clear, I like care about the environment. Yeah.

Tommy: And I'm making steps, but just anyway, don't worry, you're friends with the O-Bike guy, it's fine.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. You're doing your part, uh, the part for both of us. Anyway, the, um I saw this article, girl doing something out of spite. I thought it was quite funny and something that I would 100% do. Yeah. Um, so I don't want to read the headline because— actually, now I've read the headline. A teenager fat-shamed at a bakery spent $73 buying every cupcake in the store to spite the woman who taunted her. Vega Blossom was waiting in line at her favourite bakery in Indiana on Saturday when she overheard heard a woman in her 40s standing behind her say, "Let's hope the fat bitch doesn't buy all the cupcakes." You thought that's funny? The 19-year-old had originally planned on buying only 6 cupcakes, but then decided to purchase the shop's entire stock of 20.

Tommy: That is so good.

Josh: For $73 to teach the rude onlooker a lesson.

Tommy: That is the best. She's awesome. It's a good way to handle it because it makes like, it's, it's not aggressive. Yeah, but she would definitely feel like she got a victory. She might be larger than— yeah, you know, she, she could be, but fuck, that's—

Josh: I enjoyed it.

Tommy: What a legend.

Josh: Can you think of anything that you've done out of spite like that?

Tommy: Fuck, only taking car spots or something like that, but I don't know, that's pretty like— you can't fucking top that.

Josh: Yeah, that's pretty—

Tommy: because it's so personal, like an attack at your weight.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: For her, she would feel like, fuck, and she's there to buy cupcakes, so she's probably feeling like, I probably shouldn't be. Like, at your heaviest, yeah, did you think about like, yeah, that kind of stuff when you're in a shop?

Josh: Or, uh, nah, I think that you'd probably— it depends what stage you are. I think you're in a stage of acceptance or just willingness of like, this is who I am, okay? And you almost have joy in that. So, I like, yeah, I'm gonna get a thick shake. Like, when you— if you're, if you're not being sort of, um, connected to this as an issue, then you don't necessarily think about it. Um, but like, I know a bunch of people who are overweight who you'll fucking hang out with them, they'll eat fuck all. And the thing is, it's like, what's the thing? Like, what you put on your lips goes on your hips. So it's like all the shit that you eat outside, outside.

Tommy: Yeah, I know someone that's just literally only eats— I have hardly ever seen them eat, maybe once a salad, and always rejecting food. But I don't know, I think— have you got something you— in spite you've done though? I think it's a very— it's a you thing. Yeah, which I very much appreciate the storeys that come from it.

Josh: No, I just remember, um, it was actually yesterday I was thinking about it. I remember, uh, I knew, uh, I had some friends that, uh that I went to school with, and, um, they had a band. And for whatever reason, they were like— I'd sort of disconnected from them. And then I decided to Google— like, this would have been, you know, 10 years ago nearly. I decided to, uh, search their domain name for their band, the .com, and it was available, so I bought it. But the weird thing about it was, I don't know why I did this, but I forwarded it to joshjansen.com. Anyway, I forgot about it, and like 8 months later I get an email from their manager being like, hi Josh, I believe you know the band members and you have the domain name.

Tommy: So the forward means that if they go to whatever the band name was, it will take them to joshjansen.com.

Josh: So I was like, what the fuck did I do that anyway? So I sent them an email, I'm like, sorry, I just like I made up this bullshit storey where I said that I, um, I just automate, uh, basically common phrases on Facebook mentions, and I buy domain names that are available around those common phrases that must have come up.

Tommy: That's a business model.

Josh: Yeah, I said happy to give it to you though. So I went from being like, and, um, doing it in spite to that.

Tommy: Yeah, when was that?

Josh: Oh, that was— yeah, that would have been like '09, '08. It was a while ago. And the thing is, it's— Life is this weird thing because even these, even the relationships that we have with people. Example, old café. Well, café that I've been going to for the last probably 3 or 4 months. 2 almond flat whites for Bree and I costs $12 for the 2 of them, $6 each. —and, uh, you're doing well. Yeah, there's a, there's a place down the road, same almond milk, really delicious, $9 for the 2 coffees, same ones, probably a bit bigger. So I've started going to them. Now the problem that I'm facing is this is a fucking classic, uh, radio gear, you know, it happens with hairdressers, PTs, you're always the breaker. However, what I'm trying to work out is it's like you have this moment where you can choose to still be friendly with the other café or be a fucking weird unit. And what I noticed is today, I just like, I saw the girl from the old café like through the window. I just sort of walked past quickly. Where it's like, really what I should do is I should like smile and say, "Hey," and just keep walking. But then the internal voice in my head is like, "Oh, then she's like, 'Look at that fucking smug piece of shit.'" I think they're too busy.

Tommy: From working in cafés, I worked on one that was like a corner, and then on the opposite corner there was like a bakery cafe that did really well. And I'm just trying to think about if I was to see someone over there. I think you actually, if you become friends with people, because I became friends with dudes that came into the coffee shop, one being, um, Andrew O'Keefe. Yeah, Deal or No Deal.

Josh: Yeah, the very hand gesturing.

Tommy: I, yeah, I'd, um I'd interviewed him on radio and I bumped into him around, so we became friends. But like, I would think if I saw him over there, I'd be like, fuck, yeah, I want to talk to him. So it's like a friendship. So there are some of those.

Josh: And might as well be friends with the person who buys coke from the same dealer.

Tommy: Deal or no deal? Fucking no deal on us. Anyway, I think they— we talked about it yesterday, no one cares as much as you do. Yeah. And so unless you've actually got some really close friendship and you're severing it By not going there, it probably doesn't mean much. I did a thing where I wanted to break up with my gym in Shepparton. Yeah, never ended up. Small town. And I talked about on the radio. Yeah. So I was like, I'm having a look at a few others. And I got into the gym and there was a poster up on the wall and it was song lyrics and they'd changed my name. Tommy, please don't go. Tommy, please don't go. It's this song. It was fucking hilarious. And, um, and, and so that— I think a gym is quite, you know, I become friends with a lot of those people. I was a part of the furniture by the end of it. And so I understand that. I think— but still, I left. It's like yesterday we talked about, you think you fucking— people don't get shot at a job and they won't fucking replace me. Yeah, you're gone. A new member walks in, oh fuck, he's nice. Yeah, exactly. He's a better dude than that Tommy guy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or they don't even think about you. Yeah. Yeah, fuck, I love that storey of that girl. Cupcakes. Yeah, she would have gone home and smashed 20 of them.

Josh: Yeah, it's just, you know what, out of spite, just fucking eat them all, shit her pants, have a good day. Um, the— a friend of mine, um, broke some news this morning, uh, to me. Can I guess? Yeah, you'll guess straight away. Pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And, um, it was, um, uh, the interesting thing was she'd been trying to catch up with me in person to tell me and we didn't get around to it. And so, she was, I had called her and she told me, and it was, it got me thinking about breaking news to people. And you know, you've got Bodhi, how was the, what was the process like? What is the social etiquette, the hierarchy? Do you have to say, okay, we need to tell fucking my family or Amy's family, do we need to fucking do it in person?

Tommy: Just without answering those specific questions, we had a very clear understanding that there's a difference between announcing it on social media and announcing it to people you actually fucking love and talk to a lot more. And so we did that. That was first. Telling people we know first was priority to their face. And if we couldn't, it was on the phone, but it's getting to them first because what you don't want with like a pregnancy announcement is going on Facebook and your fucking best mate going, hang on, cunt. Yeah, what the fuck?

Josh: So how long do you have to get— so it probably took you, what, like 4 weeks of fucking telling everyone?

Tommy: We told people at 6 weeks. Yeah, of being pregnant, which is totally—

Josh: I would have known. I think you told me.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's probably way too early, but we couldn't keep a fucking secret. Yeah, and, um, yeah, I do. And so, yeah, you definitely knew that. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so, yeah, then we— then we actually got a video of Amy and I going, um, yeah, so now we're about to do the announcement to our social media followers.

Josh: Did you miss anyone? Did you miss anyone that who popped up on social where you're like, actually probably should have fucking told them?

Tommy: And no, I think, I think we're pretty thorough. And it was— oh, so we knew by our wedding, and so there was so many family and friends. Oh my God, I haven't told you the story. Amy's auntie? No. So Amy's auntie was flying down, she lives in Sydney, to Melbourne for our wedding. She's sitting in row A and she hears these people in row B talking, a couple of guys. Turned out it was the other side of the family, so it was Amy's uncle's kids. Yeah. So this is, you know, Amy's auntie's in the front, that's from her dad's side. Amy's mum's son, mum's brother's kids. So the other— so cousins. She found out that Amy was having a baby because she overheard on the fucking airplane. On the plane? On the plane. So she didn't even— she doesn't know them, and they're sitting behind and talking about, yeah, we're going to a wedding, you know, did you know Amy's pregnant? And fuck, so Amy's auntie found out by fucking overhearing it on an airplane.

Josh: Was she pissed or was she okay? We don't know. Yeah, how did she tell you?

Tommy: She told us that she thought it was a good story, so she saw the word. She just saw it. That's good. Benefit of the story, she's like, would you believe this? I overheard Sean and the guys talking about they were coming to this wedding, and then I worked out, oh, we're going to Amy's wedding, and then drop the fucking she's pregnant.

Josh: Have you ever heard— have you ever overheard people shitcanning you, or have you ever found out that someone was shitcanning you?

Tommy: I found out people— yeah, I told Matt Tilley. Yeah, yeah, she's canning you. She's canning me to other people. Yeah, and so I didn't confront him though.

Josh: Just do it on this podcast.

Tommy: Yeah, I've done it. Well, he was the talent, you know. You don't want to upset the person making a million dollars a year because they're precious.

Josh: I, uh, I have a friend who used to be big in the magician space. In Melbourne, would run events and things like that. And he, um, basically found out that there was like a WhatsApp group of magicians all being fucking assholes to it, like just being like, just like a troll.

Tommy: Have you seen Troy's magic? It's bullshit. It's actually not magic. Yeah, exactly. It's all the fucking Cat in the Hat thing.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: No, he puts the cat in there before he gets there.

Josh: Did you But yeah, so, um, could you imagine that he was like— he, yeah, discovered this, um—

Tommy: Why has it happened to you though? Because I think about why it happened to me with Matt talking.

Josh: Why does it happen? Why do people shitcan? Yeah, oh, like I even— I've been in conversations where I hear people shitcanning other people. I've definitely shitcanned people in my life, but I do it less and less now, and I feel like it's, um I can see when people are trying to test the waters of shit canary. So, they're like, they'll say something about someone.

Tommy: Putting a few drops of poo in the water.

Josh: Yeah, like, "Did you see blah blah's social posts?" And like sometimes, like this just happened the other day. I was like, "Yeah, it's fucking great, isn't it?" I just boom right back at them and then it shuts it down.

Tommy: But yeah, it's So why do you think they do it? Why do you think someone like— why are those other magicians? Yeah, because what I'm, what I'm getting at here is I heard it from Craig Harper, and it's like a— actually, no, I might have seen it on a quote. You'd know. It's like, um, once, you know, you hit— what's the fucking quote? I want to get this right because I did it on the day.

Josh: I, I was— I made a joke about it.

Tommy: Once they're a dickhead, um, twice they're a dickhead, the third time you're the dickhead, or something like that.

Josh: Yeah. I think, yeah, no, there's, there's another quote though that's like, you know, first they, uh, first they make fun of you, then they laugh at you or something, then you win, or something like that. But the point, the point being that, um, I actually think that for the most part it's playing into other people's insecurities. So for instance, it's the, uh, it's the— it's this guy is a hustler and people don't like necessarily seeing hustlers, or they see things in them, you know, or that they don't see in themselves. Jealousy. Yeah, there's— I think threatened. Like, I have a conversation, uh, with a friend who, you know, like, I think that as we get older, we get way better at filtering, filtering these things. Yeah. And I just realized, I'm like, actually, every single time I speak to this person Everything, you know, it's like, oh, um, they'll pick little moment like in the, like the podcast or whatever. They said, I heard you doing a podcast, and then like insert fucking comment about it. It's like, oh, it's, it's funny though because I enable it. I, um, and I think it's like the ultimate thing of showing how insecure they are because I've allowed them to do it for so long. I'm like, oh yeah. I can't believe people listen, you know, but they're actually like believing it and saying it, and there's sort of like this, uh, weird dynamic. But I think it is— insecurities come in lots of different forms.

Tommy: Um, I, I feel like I've had moments, and it must be ego creeping in, and it's seeing somebody that's doing a similar thing to what I'm doing or in the same space And that feeling that just fucking creeps in when you see those numbers on their video. Yeah. And you just think, how the fuck? That bullshit. That, like, you shitcan— I think I shitcan in my own head more than I do to anyone else. Yeah. And I know you do too, because you don't shitcan other people. Yeah. To me much, along with me, you, when we go hard on something. No, but I think it's probably okay. Yeah. And I don't think there's much wrong with shitcanning to your best mate. Yeah. But if you are caught up in it, there's an issue. But understand why. Yeah, for me it's more in my own head. That's the danger, because if you actually believe that, that feeling that comes up and you start going, why this fucking idiot has had any success and I'm over here? Yeah, that's dangerous.

Josh: I think that where my shit cannery has changed is I think that, uh, it maybe used to be looking about. I used to find that looking above me at what I haven't gotten to yet. That was definitely a projection. And I think the one, the one that I actually realise is an okay emotion is just this— I just fucking hate this, um, like followers or people that are that sort of— that are doing the shit cannery. Like, that's the people that I have the least amount of respect for, the people who it's just like the cynical eye rollers that aren't doing anything. Um, or the keyboard warriors, or the people like, um, you know, I saw there was one comment from a guy, and this gives you a bit of insight into sort of— it was half me realising my mistake but also putting it back on him. Yeah, he didn't like— he said, I can't understand what you're saying with that music, um, in the video, because I had that video go semi— hashtag semi-viral. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I said to him, uh, this is Josh's YouTube channel video about, um, being a digital minimalist.

Tommy: Yeah, doing digital minimalism.

Josh: Thank you. Uh, I said to him, because he was sort of— his English was poor. Yeah. So I just wrote back, you know, sorry that you struggled to hear it, I completely understand. What I need to consider in the future is that not everyone that's watching my video understands my accent or uses English as their first language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it was like, it was me being empathetic, but at the same time, it's like I had in my head that like this guy, like that was the disconnection. The disconnection is that 100 out of 104 people liked the video. We had 4 dislikes, 100 people like, so it's a very small audience, but it's funny how people are in their own worlds or get caught up or this dude who's telling me about the cup thing, he thinks he's like, an environmental warrior or whatever it is.

Tommy: But, um, you hit the nail on the head when you're saying looking ahead. That's when the— that's when the danger hits, right? I had the comment on a video that I put on LinkedIn, and this guy said, Tommy, loving this video you posted. I'm doing the same thing you were doing a few years back now. Keep on rocking. And like, fucking, I don't think I'm anywhere. Yeah, in my own head. Yeah, I'm 'Cause I'm looking ahead, I'm looking at these successful thousands, millions of subscribers making lots of money. And this guy is saying he's where I was 2 years ago. I don't know where that was.

Josh: Yeah, well, the thing is that, and that's like the ultimate projection, but it's also that desire to pump yourself up and you fucking see it so much. It's such an ugly trait. What? Him, like he can't give a compliment to someone without having a bit of self-puffery in there.

Tommy: I mean, what he's saying is, maybe I got it wrong. He's saying, um, I'll just read the relevant bit. I'm doing the same thing you were doing a few years back.

Josh: Okay, sure. So, okay, I thought he was saying that he was doing what you are doing now, but he was doing 2 years back.

Tommy: Yeah, no, I would have fucking told him to fuck off. No, but my point was, a realisation for me is I'm somewhere where someone might want to be. Yeah. And I'm over here going, but I'm fucking looking over there, yeah, yeah, 40 steps ahead, yeah, going, I'm nowhere. And I'm still like, in relative terms, nowhere. But it was a nice thing to look at because it ties into what you said about looking forward. This guy's looking forward, yeah, he's obviously gone, this is a 2-year thing, yeah, I'm 2 years behind this guy, yeah, yeah. And then what am I behind the next person that I'm looking at?

Josh: 6 years? And it's, and it's, it's a way of, um, it's a bit of self-talk where it's like, okay, I'm not where I want to be, but I reckon it's 2 years away and then I'll be there. Or it's like, it's people who are like asking what camera you're using, all that sort of thing. It's like, okay, that was me 5 years ago. Yeah, well, to be able to, okay, to be able to do what this guy's doing, I'm obviously going to need the camera that he's got and all that sort of thing.

Tommy: Yeah, it's, uh, it— I'm constantly— I keep— I battle with it constantly.

Josh: I think that A lot of people, I think in the creative, like having a lot of creative friends, it is a common, like, fucking, I just get the sense when you're hanging out with people, they're asking questions and it's, they all have like, they're a bit sort of poking, prodding, okay, how do we position? Similar to what we were talking about yesterday, people like putting you on sort of some sort of hierarchy or ladder. And so, and that happens within the creative industries as well. It's like, okay, You know, what are you up to? What are you doing? Those types of questions.

Tommy: That— I'm really on that documentary at the moment, The Defiant Ones. Have you watched all of them? I watched it, finished it last night. Right. Fuck, it's the most amazing 4 hours of documentary just tying multiple storeys together and finishing. Like, if you're into business, if you're into creativity, you'll just fucking love it because it's so inspirational. These guys have pioneered this space. And Jimmy Irvine— Jimmy Irvine, fucking don't know how to say his name.

Josh: He's a boss. Trying to say Johnny Ive, like the designer, but he's an absolute boss.

Tommy: And he was talking about having— he uses a racehorse analogy. You put blinkers on a racehorse so they can't look right and left at what other horses are doing.

Josh: I thought they were called blinkers. I think they're blinders. Blinders, maybe. Maybe. But why do people say— I said blinkers a while ago and someone's like, do you mean blinders? Okay, is it blinkers?

Tommy: Maybe blinders. Blinkers sounds weird. Blinders probably works. And so their focus is ahead. Yeah, because when they look to the left and right, that's when they're going to fall over. And look, and the metaphor being humans looking at what other people are doing, hence this guy 2 years ahead, me going, that guy's got 10 million subs, I want that. It's a fucking distraction. He says, if you believe, don't listen to fucking other people, just run, look straight ahead and go hard. I think for with me in that advice, I look at it and go, I need to be sure on myself though to be going straight ahead. Because you're— rather than like, we're always sort of chugging along, walking and looking left and right. But it comes to a time where you know your value and you're like, fuck yeah, let's power. And that takes time to get there.

Josh: And you can— I don't think, um, an extension of that too is that whole sort of Austin Kleon talks about it in Steal Like an Artist, is you need to borrow from other people, but don't just look within your industry. If you want to be a vlogger, don't look at other vloggers, look at like— and that's I guess what Casey Neistat talks about, where's his inspiration from? It's Wes Anderson, it's, you know, yeah, it's all these, uh,, you know, directors or, you know, other artists. And I think that's a really important piece, which is like, don't just look— if you're trying to build an amazing website for your company, don't look at your competitors. Look 3 steps in a different industry and the pioneers there and bring it to your industry. Yeah, I think that's a lot more powerful.

Tommy: There, um, something I've heard quite a bit is 'Oh, look, we just don't want to do what everyone else is doing. We want to do something different.' And a lot of those people that bring that advice and that I've been in conversations with don't have the answers. Yeah, it's very simple to say, 'Let's not do what everyone— that's just what everyone else does.' That structure of a video, talking head, B-roll, like, no, let's do— it's, it's the easy way out because the hard bit is actually working out what the fuck that is.

Josh: Yeah, I, I had a conversation with a client, a potential client, yesterday, phone call, and, um, had a— asked them a bunch of questions and then sort of asked them what stage they're at. They said, um, we are at the stage of just getting a bunch of quotes. You want to sort of see the low level, the high level, and see where it's at. I said to them, if you're doing motion graphics, contact this company. I think they're really good. But if it's not— if you're not doing short-form doco as your main thing I'm not the best business for you for this one. But I said, if you have any questions in regards to— if you're working with a company or whatever and you just have— you want to get an independent thought on something, so if you've got a question around how something's being done, always happy to have a chat. And it was so interesting that I don't think they knew how to handle it. Yeah, but, um, this guy doesn't want my business. Yeah. And the, the other thing too, which I'm starting to synthesise what sort of questions we need to ask clients. And I think that the one that I'm going to be starting asking at the very front is, what is it about the work that Fullstack Films does that you like? Because talking about yesterday and the commoditization of what we do, I don't want to be doing any work based on price. If, if it's based on price, there's going to be someone who's cheaper than me always. But, and because I know your price, if people, if people say, uh, from a motion graphic, if, if someone wants a motion graphics video and they're coming to me, they either have not looked at the work that I do on my website, I am not articulating what I'm doing, or thirdly, they love our ethos, what we're about, what sort of story, how we do storytelling, and they want to see how we can inject that into this type of medium. Yeah, but, um, where did you find me?

Tommy: If they've just come through a Google search, yeah, there's a chance that they're just fucking trying to get a bunch of quotes. Yeah, but that question opens it up a lot.

Josh: Yeah, it's just like, yeah, what do you like about our work? Or which one sticks out? What's it— and because it's, it's the equivalent of— I use the architect analogy a lot, right? Which is just like another— imagine. Yeah, but it's that thing of like, um, Yeah, if you see a big fucking, you know, a Eureka Tower or something like that, right? You don't go to them and say, can you build us a cottage out in the country, right? Because there's a disconnect between what they've designed.

Tommy: It will look at the cottage, it will look like a skyscraper. Exactly.

Josh: But that's the thing, right? So why do we do that? Why do people do that? And I think it's people don't currently understand the market. They're just, They're typing, I've, I have marketed myself from a search engine optimization point of view in a sort of generic way, video production. So I'm going to get that huge list.

Tommy: What's the learning in, in that then?

Josh: The learning is just being able to filter very quickly. So I think it's okay to start broad, get people coming in, but you— we need to be efficient in the time that we spend with them. So it's, uh, because what some people don't know, right, they know that they want to tell a storey but they don't know the form, so they might get 3 steps in and say, okay, this is the style that we need to go in. We want to do a stop-motion, or we want to do, you know, this short-form doco. And sometimes they need speaking to someone like us to be able to work that out.

Tommy: The communication, understanding and interpreting what people are saying. I had someone send me something, say, oh, can we do this? The way they wrote it, the way it read, was completely different to by the end. I'd written back and formulated something. They're like, oh no, I just meant that. But you said, yeah, you wanted it blue. Yeah.

Josh: And, and this is red. Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. And I think that it's, uh, that's why it's, uh, interpreting feedback. A lot of people say to me, um, clients will say, oh, we need to put together a storyboard. And I fucking hate storyboards because the problem with storyboards is they, um, they don't always trans— like, if you're dealing with a client and you don't know how to read the storyboard properly, you don't really understand, and you could be disappointed, especially if you're doing sort of short-form doc type stuff. Uh, you could either get hell-bent on a storyboard and matching every shot, which has its purpose within certain types of filmmaking. Yeah, but what I like to do is say, okay, let's get a list of key messages. What are the key messages? What are the themes? Let's break them down into themes. So have themes within the themes, have key messages. Let's sort of build out a narrative and then let's have a mood board around like, you like these wide sort of establishing shots, or you like these sort of macro-esque shots. And then when we're telling the story, we can use that format to be able to inform what we do, rather than we need this establishing shot to look like this and we spend fucking half a day nailing that shot. Is it—

Tommy: were storyboards originally created to translate in a visual style what the shot will be, but also because it cost a fuckload to load the gunpowder into an old film camera. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but to use one take on a film camera, you needed to know exactly what it was going to be.

Josh: Well, I mean, and this is why it's still the case, right? Like, it depends how many stakeholders you have. If you're doing a visual effects heavy shoot, you want a storyboard because you want the post-production team, the production team, the DOP, everyone aligned so that we know, okay, we need them placed in this position. Yeah, we need— we want this sort of depth of field so that when they're doing the fucking tracking in post, they're going to be able to match it. Or it's, uh, if you're dealing with a crew of 70 people, the sound person needs to know whether it's a wide or a close-up, because if it's a close-up, they might change their miking technique. If it's a super wide shot, they might decide to lapel mic it. So there's all these considerations which with the style of filmmaking that I do personally, it doesn't require that. And that is the opportunity. The opportunity is in the fluidness. So it's about, but with that you need structure. I don't think creativity has to be this thing that has no structure. You need structure, you need boundaries. And people default to these things like storyboards. My point is that it doesn't necessarily mean that that's the, that's the way of doing it. I guess an example would be, uh, you know, if you're trying to become a better runner, what you use as your, um, as the metric, or cycling for instance, right? Like, I could cycle for 100 kilometres but I have no elevation, right? But if, if the goal is from a fitness point of view, I'd be much better off doing fucking 50Ks on a steep incline than I, than I would be to do 100Ks. So that's the thing where you can't just take this, you can't take one thing. So you can't take a storyboard and say that applies, same way you can't take a distance and say, fuck, what a huge ride, that was 100Ks. But you were fucking on Beach Road.

Tommy: Yeah, I caught up with a mate over the weekend and he was saying— works for a company, he's like the lead video production person— and he was saying that he, he wants more storyboards. And what I'm actually hearing from what he else he said is your thing about the stakeholders. Yeah, because the format that he's doing is very much doco, run-and-gun structure to the video, but more they can't do recces, they can't see the location to understand where they're going to be shooting, etc. And I think the thing, the reason you want storyboards is because there's so many people involved around him that are putting their fucking two cents into the video and he doesn't know. And it's hard to go, look, we're going to come into this, we don't know. Like, people are scared of that.

Josh: Well, I mean, so yeah, if you want, storyboards will create certainty. Yeah, and what it will do is, from a stakeholder management, it's powerful because what it says is these, these are the shots that we want to get. And so from a, from a measurement point of view, you either tick the shot and have the shot, or you don't have the shot. Um, and I think that that's why— and that's why scripts— so people in non-fiction will still say we need a script for this video. We're telling this personal storey that someone wants to share, and they're like, okay, we need to get the script because we need to know that they're saying everything they need to say exactly the way they want to say it. However, what about if we said, what are the non-negotiables of this story? What, as a tyre company who is wanting to tell the storey of a motorsports enthusiast, what are the elements that you actually care about? So it's like, I can drive in all types of weather. 'Okay, that's one key message.' Or that it's a brand I trust because of how long I've been using this since I was a young person. 'When I was 18, my first car had these tires.' So then once you have those facts, once you've determined from the client these are the themes, these are the key messages, then you start to inform that with questions that are going to align with answers or that will provoke those types of answers. So those answers might be— so the questions might be, tell us about the experience of your first car. What sort of— tell us the details, right? And then if they don't fucking talk about the time, they're already knowing that they're doing this for a fucking tyre company. The subject is normally smart enough to realize, I'm going to make this and tell the storey about the tires. If not, you can start asking questions around the first time you changed your tire, or those types of things. Or, um, what's your favorite— you're talking about sort of the different conditions— what's the optimum weather, or what's your favourite weather to race your car in? And then they can say, fucking, I love when it's been fucking a hot day and it's just got a bit, uh, wet on the road. It's created a bit of a slick. Exactly. Don't say that again. It's got a bit of a slick, and we can just fucking fang it and we're drifting and it's just like I feel like I'm in, you know, this ideal situation. So that's my point is it's the difference between saying, hey, we want you to say this thing, which is I guess aligned with big budgets, actors. That's why you pay actors a lot of money.

Tommy: Yeah, because they can say it like they really mean it. Yeah. But they couldn't give a shit about tyres. Fucking no. Hey, just quick one. Have you changed a tyre before? Never, never. No, I once fucking walked past a person. Poor girl. I was with a friend of mine and I thought I'd be the man. Oh, fuck. Excuse me, do you need a hand? I was with a girl at the time, so I was looking like a fucking legend. Yeah, I'm so annoyed I committed because it took me so long. The car, like, her equipment was fucked, the tyres were fucked.

Josh: Oh no, don't walk past. Yeah. I mean, the closest thing I would ever do is if someone had Wi-Fi issues at a cafe, I'd be like, "Mate, you need a hand? What's the— try turning off and on again." But no, I, uh, that's what RACV is for.

Tommy: If you liked us talking about the film stuff, videos, what we do, we can— I've enjoyed that. It's because I fucking do it for a living and I love it, and so do you. If you like it, let us know, we can do more of it. Hi at thedailytalkshow.com. Yeah, that's it.

Josh: We do like getting messages from people because it's— we know that there's a lot of people listening, but we just want to also hear from you. And also, as an invitation, just email us and tell us a little bit about you, just in a few lines, like what are you up to? What are you interested in? What do you do? When do you listen to us? Where do you get the value? Because, you know, the reason we make this is because we want to give value to you. And also, um, why—

Tommy: what do you like of our work? It's relating back to your things.

Josh: Very, very good.

Tommy: Very good. All right, I'm just quickly, uh, just got an email from BMAC— message from BMAC. Yeah, episode 54. I'm catching up. Best that Jo— uh, it's so good that Josh looked at the time and thought of me. Hahaha. Thanks, BMAC.

Josh: Uh, Daily Talk Show, everyone. Remember, we are on all those podcasting apps, and you can review us on iTunes, and it is appreciated. Have a good one.