#564 – Craig Harper On Happiness & Expectations/
- January 1, 2020
Craig Harper joins us for our first episode of 2020! We chat about how his Ph.D. is going, expectations, happiness and being aware of what you don’t know.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Studying at Monash University
– Good and bad science
– Research papers and accuracy
– Being aware of what you don’t know
– Gurus and tailoring specificity
– Motivation in real-world and academia
– Perpetual happiness
– The Daily Talk Show in 2019
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Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 564
Welcome back to the studio. Craig.
times seven times. Who keeps those records? Is that you Mr. 97? Yeah,
yeah, he's got your dress. He's got everything.
Wow. I'm honoured and flattered to be back. So this is coming out in Jan one New Year 2020. What a year or what a year giddy up Buttercup. It must be some kind of numerology symbolism with 2020. There must be something sure about I don't know, it seems like it should be significant
saves. Can you look at that any significance of 2020? Well, people say we've had a few fights within the gronk squad about end of what does
it end of? If whether it's a new decade or some shit?
Yeah, but it is. Well,
yeah. Yeah. Well, it's 2020 What did they say that the new decade is actually 21?
Yes because 2020 is that the 10th year of this decade? Yeah, I think that's
right. Okay. Well if you go to Yeah Yeah.
Do you remember to the year 2000 i do i do have What did you have in the world was gonna end hat on steel at this time
Gen one yeah
um I was not as concerned as everyone else probably cuz I'll just generally apathetic but only because I own the business and stuff was mildly computerised at that stage, not by me, but so I thought I fucking hope it doesn't crash for that reason. But yeah, now it was. It kind of came and went was a bit nothing nice to 97 How old were you in 2021 2001?
No, I would have been two months old. It probably wasn't a big issue for you.
Like you might be, what's that thing that they have by the bed? What is it a baby monitor?
Not a big issue for you.
Not much time have you been spending studying?
Well, I just came from the thriving metropolis of Monash University, right, new. So I was there this morning at seven ish. I left at 1230. So I did five and a half hours, if I probably do at uni about 25 hours, 30 hours at uni, and then another 1015 on top of that studying, so I'm trying to study 40 hours away.
It's a lot and so I think the last time you on the show, I don't know if he'd started.
It hadn't started talking about it.
Yet, what's your focus like, coming from I knew you spend time thinking and writing anyway, but this is a different skill of actually applying yourself to take on
It's really different when you stay into a certain culture environment situation, academic box corporate box where all of a sudden, you're not in charge. So I've spent, you know, I haven't had a boss since I was 26, which was seven years ago. So, but good. So now all of a sudden, I'm in this environment situation and kind of operating system that I have no control over, which I don't need to have control over. So it's learning to adjust to that. Whereas when I'm writing books, or when I'm working in my office at home versus sitting in my cubicle at Monash, you can be as creative as you want. You don't need ethics approval, you don't need anyone's to. You don't need to meet certain criteria, generally speaking, because you can kind of, you know, I can say on Monday. Hi, Melissa, why don't we run a workshop on x y Zed, and on my we're promoting it. And on Thursday, we've got bums on seats, you know, and then two months later, we might run it. Whereas in everything moves very slowly in academia, and especially at a doctorate level that it needs to be. So particular and precise and sound, obviously, as does little song It's been.
It's just, to me, it's just,
it's, it's hard, and it's uncomfortable, and it's unfamiliar. And this sounds very cliche, but they are all of the places that we grow. So, you know, business is hard and uncomfortable and unpredictable and unfamiliar at the start. And then it's always evolving. And so you're doing things and pot one of the byproducts is that you learn grow and evolve, adapt, and in the middle of the academic or the corporate situation or the getting in shape situation or the, the new marriage that you're in or whatever the shift is in the middle of that you become different. So you become more resilient, more adaptable, and more aware and more empathetic and more whatever you need to be to be able to survive and thrive in that space. So, it's, um, it's for me, it's just been really interesting because I'm the dumbest at Monash I'm the dumbest PhD student I'm the oldest PhD student, but it's good.
It wasn't what you expected.
Yeah, yeah, it is pretty much I mean, the people there are really nice I literally sit in a room as bad as big as this
thousand square square metres.
And I don't know if that jokes like that. A lot.
My This is 100 this whole whole we have at least 200 square metre build as you know, 80 square metres.
Don't get bogged down. But anyway, so the Yeah, so
I sit in a room basically with seven other people in cubicles all doing, you know some of them doing their PhD, some of them doing just research and some of them running different programmes because I'm at a place which is I'm based at a place which is essentially called Brian park or Brian Park is part of where we're at which, so that's part of the neuroscience area that I'm in
and when like Sam Harris does the same today.
Well, he's a neuroscientist, so near. So, neuroscience is really how the brain works with the mind, the brain thing, the physical thing, the mind being the non physical. And it's so with Brian Park, they're doing a lot of work around research around obsessive compulsive behaviours, addictions and the two modalities of treatment that we're using right now. exercise and virtual reality. Wow.
Yeah, the true reality to that third, so compulsive today.
So what that do is, for example, a gambler, they'll take them in, they'll put on VR goggles, they'll they'll in the goggles, they'll walk them into a casino, they'll give them a certain amount of money. And, and once they're in that have done it once you're in the experience, it's really, really real and you get to or it seems real You get to a point where you lose yourself and you forget where you are, especially if you're a gambling addict, and now you're in there. Now you've got this even though it's pretend to money, you lose sight of that. And so it's trying to see what the physiological responses are with people in that environment. So what's happening with their brain with their heart right with the cortisol and adrenaline endocrine system and trying to figure out strategies to help people and treat and manage different compulsive behaviours and so, these people are wired up, stuffs tied to their head more technical than that. And these these people who are addicts or using are these are these are people who have addictive tendencies, if not, people who are will be categorised as addicts. Yeah.
So as a student, you walking into this situation, they're saying, This is what you're learning? How does How did this come about? So that's,
I don't that is part of what's happening where I'm at. I'm not involved in that. There's lots of different research in the behavioural spice the brat so I'm either going to come out depending on my research with a doctorate in neuroscience, a doctorate in neuro psychology or a doctorate in psychology, straight psychology, depending on which way I go with my research and how much whether or not I'm going to do. Like, for example, brain scans and have a look at what's happening in someone's brain when they're doing certain things, which I can do, because we have all that medical imaging stuff. I'm just, I'm still at the very beginning. So I'm a couple of months in and my research is around motivation and exercise programme adherence, which sounds very boring, but he's heard me say 5 million times were have spoken about the limited value of what we call motivation in terms of creating lasting change. And so now I'm putting that to kind of the academic test. So So, you know, for example, everyone who starts an exercise programme at the beginning they're motivated that's why they stopped motivated, they're inspired, they're in this on. And everyone intends to do it consistently very few people end up doing it consistently over time. And it's trying to figure out what are the what are the variables in that, that we can help people with? And what role does motivation play? And what about support and structure and organisation and timeline and accountability and process and all of those kinds of things. So, you know, I, I'm passionate about helping people change and whether or not that's changed the way they do life or business or exercise or food, or conversation or self management. And it's all in that space.
I'm sure you have a different answer than the degree but in terms of when someone says, I feel motivated, it's a visceral in you can have a visceral response when you using that term. I'm feeling motivated and what are Is there a specific feeling? Is it endorphins what is actually going on in the area?
Yeah, so they're often When often there is a physiological accompaniment to that cognitive state that so if you if if, like when a lot of people talk about feeling motivated, even things like blood pressure might be up hot right might be up, they might be producing what we would call happy hormones versus stress hormones. And that there's like motivation in the community sense it's different in the academic sense, but what we would typically call motivation is a multi dimensional experience. It's physical and emotional and cognitive. So you know, and just like when people feel demotivated sometimes what goes with that is depression is lack of drive. is is you know, like an overall physiological and emotional state of blah
technically, technically known as flat as fact
flat is far too flat and that's one of the things is the way that the why research is so fucking Law, right? And everything that happens in an academic space is so slow to get approval for everything, which is good, because it's thorough. But it's frustrating because, you know, like, you guys can go, let's do three podcasts today. And no one's gone. No, you can't you just do three podcast today, if you want. And so for me, that's me who's been the boss of me for 30 years. And I don't want to be the boss of anyone at Monash, but it's just getting used to working in that and realising, you know, you have to follow this protocol on this pathway to, you know, create this or to get this, this information and then to be able to disseminate that in a way which is valuable to people, a lot of PhDs a very, very, very, very tiny focus. So some people might spend 3456 years doing a PhD. And it's not that they shouldn't, but they come out and they've researched something which is relevant 2.4 of the population, whereas I want to do something Which is broadly relevant, like motivation and exercise, why the fact that we stop? And how do we not stop? Because it's nobody's intention to consistently stop and start but then that's what we do.
What about good science versus bad science? And is there a connection or correlation between fast science doing something quickly and it being bad? science?
That's good question. So, okay, so let's start with what is science? So without being too fucking everyone just got enough? Well, really, science is just something that we created a way to analyse and measure things, too. So it makes sense to us. It's like anyone can be scientific. You know, if you write down your food every day for the next 10 days, and you measure your calories, and you figure out your macros and macros and then you put down how much water you drinking, what time you go to bed, and then you kind of report how you feel around. You're being scientific. In fact, Being a scientist. So Sciences is anyone can do science and anyone can be scientific. So it's that for me the, the alarm bells go in science. When people say things like, well, it's been scientifically proven without giving any citations or any references. But even then you've got to be aware that science is all data, all information that's collected is then interpreted by a human. Right. So, and every humans got bias. All scientists have got egos attitudes, beliefs, values, fears, phobias, likes dislikes. So if, for example, the wheat industry sponsor, some research is a fair chance it's not going to say that weight based products are shit, right? So it's trying to I mean, that it's very hard in anything like in religious In research in politics in sport in corporate to find title objectivity
because you need constraints you need like a framework like game changes the doc.
So something like something like that. I think what's potentially interesting is the difference maybe between athletes do you think is a big difference between what athletes need to perform and what their everyday punter needs? That's a good question. So, hundred percent is the answer. And
on a range of levels, so for example, even the same athlete doesn't need the same food every day or the same water intake every day or the same sleep or the same macros or macros, macros being vitamins, minerals, macros being fat protein, carbs, right. So let's say Mr. 20 sevens, a triathlete, and let's say that he's typical day is run for an hour. ride for an hour swim for now. So on a typical day for him, he might need 4000 calories to break even but two days he's off day so today he needs to and today needs half the water he had yesterday and today he needs less sleep than yesterday because he's had a pretty cruisy day and his body doesn't need to recover as much as it did yesterday because there's been less damage in inverted commas done. So individually we know different things every day so that that pose the whole recommended daily intake ID which is our your x tool and x white and x age therefore, you to need this many calories per day. Well that's bullshit because it doesn't take into account muscle mass body composition doesn't take into account the environment. You work in the heat, the temperature, it doesn't take into account your energy expenditure through the day. Like if Tommy sitting here doing podcasts all day, but he's twin brother, he's genetically twin brother is out cutting down trees All day, they have totally different requirements. So and then I'm still pretty tired but still be pretty tired. And then on top of that, yeah, when you talk about athletes in general, who, you know that there's genetic variability, some most athletes, elite athletes have pretty good genetics. And some people just because different people have a different kind of metabolic reality, or a different metabolism, like I am what loosely gets pigeonholed as endomorphic, which means I gain fat easily. So whereas let's say Tommy's more mesomorphic or ectomorphic, or somewhere in between, he could naturally have more calories than me. And that's about genetics that's not about working out or that's not about any other variable. Yeah. So it's the I think when it comes to food and exercise and recovery and how you look feel function performance, I think the thing that we missed is, well the thing that we've fought copies, we think there's an arbitrary formula, there isn't. There isn't a best diet, there isn't the best training programme, there isn't the best amount of sleep there isn't the best, you know, number of calories but what there is, is a best eating plan, exercise plan, sleeping plan for you, but it won't be the same for him or him or me. So, what we've done over time is, you know, you think about the vast majority of let's say, we've been around as relatively functional creatures for, I don't know, 50,000 years. And you Google how long with been mucking around. I don't mean as I've split as thinking, functioning, although I might back myself into gona, but what I mean is for the vast majority of humanity as we know it, we've been instinctive like, we haven't lived like this. We live in fucking camps and we aren't and and we grow and we do all these things, and we pay attention to body. But now because everything's so ridiculously, which is good and bad, but everything is so convenient. I just get on my phone and I'm going to Emirates, is there five minutes slider? We kind of have disconnected from the biofeedback system. That is our body.
Yeah, I feel like the Paleo thing. All that stuff is interesting. I had a moment the other day where I'm like, couldn't we have evolved like the things that were saying that we should do this because this is the thing that we did X amount of years ago. Versus like, but we're we actually that's smart then like halfway like, haven't we evolved? Yeah, I don't quite equality. Good question. I think
some ways we've devolved in some ways. We've I think that obviously we're perhaps more obviously, we're more academic and we're more technological, and maybe we're more intellectual. Maybe not but think how fucking creative and resourceful and amazing and intuitive And adaptive paperwork. 2000 How the fuck did I do the pyramids? It's
easy at an island. It's Yeah, definitely. It's easy now to just see it through life cruising than it was 2000 years ago, just the tough had to survive. That's right, that they could only survive that it was a tough, tough existence. Where does truth come into this? So scientific? You're pulling on a bunch of data to see that it requires to some answer. And that answer is usually this is Yeah, true. For this. This is what grows. Yeah. Well, this is what this means. Yeah, that's the truth. And then truth can be subjective. Not that you're pushing back on pushing back on science. I mean, there's,
there's not a single truth. If there's multiple. There's multiple ways that we can look at a single thing, then there's going to be multiple truths. I guess, if we're all independent for all individuals who were as you were talking about Harper having different experiences. is then that single truth of Tommy needs to eat x, y. And Zed doesn't negate the fact that there's a different truth over here or someone else needs.
Correct. And that's like, true for who? Yeah, true for who is biggest for Tommy. That's true. x, y, z, his needs for me. But then what you got to do too is when you look at, I looked at a research paper last week, because that's my last name.
How long have I
been long? But anyway, I was reading this, I can long. Let me tell you, I'll come back to that. So I was reading this right says, This is fucking amazing. And how many people were in this study? So first study to be valid, you'd want rock bottom a few hundred. Preferably thousands. not written this that how many people in the study 17 all men, and oh, between 35 and 55. I'm like, well, that's not representative of anyone except blokes in that group. And there was only saying contain you have to dig to find that or Yeah,
well, I didn't I just started reading.
Not too carefully. And then I'm thinking this is right. And then I went back to go back and go how many people in this study? Because this is like the amazing if this is and then I went
seven, eight blocks. So do you then have a filter system? Now when you get a bit of research paper of like, highlight, highlight,
highlight, you've got to figure out who did who did the research how many people are and I'm no expert in this place. By the newbie, I've got to apply time. But how many people were involved? Who did the research? What was the environment? What were the conditions? It's like, if you go, I will we only tested, we tested 100 people, anyone that's not a bad sample size. But by the way that are all triathletes, well, that doesn't help Yeah, because only 2% of the population of triathletes. So that doesn't apply to non absolutive. So you want as broad a demographic as possible in all ways and as many people as possible so socially, emotionally feel physiologically, culturally, so you can get a really broad snapshot of humans, not just these particular humans who do this thing.
So how do these things get through to the cable like the daily intake? How does that pass? Any kind of knowledge tests of like,
some recommend the daily anti? Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. Because some people have done some testing. And it's not that it's flawed. It's just that what they do is they, they might say, track Josh over, you know, for example, 100 days and go well, you know, they get his total calorie consumption for 100 days. And you go, oh, how do you feel yet he's not fat. He didn't gain weight. He didn't lose weight. He's healthy, right hundred days, they get his calorie total. They added up, they divide it by 100. And guy, that's how many calories you need per day. And in a way, that's right. But then what they do that they extrapolate that out to the population because we had 100 subjects and thought it and then They've called normative data where you just go, Okay, so we've got these guys who are this height at this way tend to need this many calories, and it becomes a guideline. And it's not that it's terrible. It's just that and then you look at things like other indicators, or what we would call scientific norms or recommendations, like BMI body mass index. So on the BMI scale, if your score is between 20 and 25, you're in the right white range. If you're between 25 and 30, on the BMI body mass index scale, you are overweight, if you're up towards 30, and very overweight, I'm 29. So I'm very overweight, right? I was going to tell you, yeah, let myself go. And then if you 30 to 35 in your result, then you are morbidly obese. I know your base and 35 plus your mobile app base. So according to the BMR Which is scientifically accepted measure. I'm really unhealthy, but what it doesn't factor in is muscle mass. What is body composition? What
is popular culture due to all of this because I think like I remember speaking to my dieticians or nutritionist after the Four Hour Body came out, which was Tim Ferriss book, and my brother's an exercise scientist, and he there was a lot of I rolling Yeah, yeah, he lives in the US. And he's assistant coach of a women's college basketball team. yet but he would always I role because I would sort of write a book and say, you'd be the name. Yeah, I'm the expert on the all these things. Yeah. What is I guess like there was a friction at the moment that's happening where it's like popular culture is taking the latest science and putting It into netflix documentaries and putting it into box. And people are then using or acting upon that science. Whereas within the space that I guess you're in, or academia, there's all these other checks that go on before they even start implementing and what does that do to the academic side of things? And do they need to speed up? Is there a way that they can sort of match popular culture? Yeah,
that's a good question, too. I think one of the problems with the dissemination of information broadly, and when you get Chris kresser on Joe Rogan poopoo in game changes, which was on Netflix, and then James, whatever his name is the mixed martial artist who came back on Joe Rogan and Pooh poohed Chris kresser and they both got data and they're both got to do what the robot will
three hours of IQ
Yeah, it's just a fucking to hide it. I turned it off. I was doing my head in I could feel myself getting anxious
100% to smart guys arguing is I
guess the thing is everything is in isolation. So if you prove if someone says something and then you prove that wrong, it doesn't then a cool that you're right or that this is it or it doesn't necessarily answer.
A lot of this shit is just not
that clear. And one of the problems is that when now and this this is the same with politics, this is the same with religion. This is the same with science or alleged science, is that when you believe that that you are 100% right, then what you believe is that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. I mean, that's a byproduct so anyone who doesn't think like me, or eight like me, or believe what I believe or support what I support is wrong. So nobody's open minded. Yeah. Whereas I often go don't fucking know. And I'm pretty educated and reasonably smart. I think on it. There's heaps of shit I don't know. And, you know, even with, like, I had a, I had an I'm digressing, but it's not really about religion as much as is about belief and thinking and metacognition is I had a coffee the other day with a mate of mine who is a pastor of the church, shout out to pastor Phil. And we were talking about all this stuff. And I said, one of my problems with Christianity, and I was raised in a Christian environment, and I have nothing against you know, that's, that's my background, right? So that's where I grew up. But one of my issues is and not just Christianity but any dogmatic belief. Whether or not that's being a vegan or being an atheist or being a Christian or being a liberal voter, or whatever it is, is that when you believe especially in the religious world, that that your religion is the one true religion, therefore everyone else is wrong. Therefore, everyone who doesn't think like you will have your values are below Sol philosophy or theology is wrong, then now you are shut down to learning now, now you have put yourself here and everyone else except those who support you or think like us and for me that's fucking terrifying
when you're protecting your position,
especially when we're talking about shit no one can prove Yeah, like science, you know, fucking we can prove gravity I can drop that shit gravity is real. Yeah, you know, we can we can measure energy expenditure and we can, but when it comes to things like faith, God, nothing wrong with having faith, nothing wrong with being spiritual, and nothing wrong with being religious. I believe if it's coming from place of love, but is it when you talk about religious stuff you really talking about believing in stuff you can't prove? Right? Because the whole notion of God is is to have faith. And faith is believing in something you can't prove. You can't prove it. Because if You could prove it, then you'd have knowledge, then faith would be redundant. But I know this exists. So I don't need faith. Because I can fucking see it, touch it, measure it, hold it, feel it. Prove it right there it is. I can't believe God exists. Neither can anyone and then not all that's not true. Look at the wind moving the ladies back off. I me seriously. And I grew up being a believer, and I still think there's something bigger and more powerful than us and whether that is called either, but that's what I believe. And that's my faith, but I can't prove it.
And that's being honest. A question I asked me was because she was in Bible College. I said, I was just trying to get my head around sort of the small beliefs of the history that has been laid out in the Bible. Did someone actually part the CS, and I'll say, Did people within the church here in actually believe that like the beach down here at Port Melbourne, someone just positive them. I'll try to get just like
Is this a symbol? Is it a symbolism which it
becomes but at from the outside, it's like, well, if you believe all the other stuff,
if you believe in a micro level fundamental Christians believe 100% Moses went and went,
yeah. And so then I try and relate it to now not that I'm saying, I don't believe any of this stuff, because I think it's more symbolism which that's what Amy was. Yeah, that's that's her understanding of it. That actually is it maintains the story behind it for which is it's quite handy, but the stories that are threaded through religion are handy, necessarily. Are they true? I don't know. I can't say that they were I didn't have me vlogging camera their clothes carry on. I would have loved to
is it harder, living life without a faith?
hole that is we'll come up with all the questions I reckon for most people. Yes. Because I think the idea of Okay, so you die That's it, and you become worm food. That's fucking terrifying. So I would rather not that option so Jesus or whatever. And I'm not saying Jesus wasn't the Son of God I'm not saying he was I'm not saying not saying anything other than when you think about what chewed pick your religion, it there's an there's a big element of belief and thinking and culture and programming. You know when if you grow up in a certain mindset or a certain theology or philosophy you become that first seven years of a child's life, they are like little sponges, and they essentially become a byproduct of of what they're programmed with. So, you if a kid grows up in a family that speaks three languages, guess what? speaks three languages. If the kid grows up where now and it's made, guess what? Not a mate. If a kid grows up in a Catholic family as a Catholic, and, you know, you talk to Catholics who haven't been to church like my mates who are 55, who haven't been to church for 30 Because I just grew up with me and went to a Catholic school like me, you ask them what they are, despite the fact that they never go to church never read the Bible never pray. I'm a Catholic. What does that mean? Yeah, that's, you know, it's just like you are that you become that. And so, I think the challenge with all of this stuff with science, with faith, with, with religion, with building a brand and business is to be able to think for yourself and choose for yourself and figure out and I mean, you might do go on a big exploration and come back to the same place and go, No, this is what I believe. But I think, you know, we just adopt, we get programmed, unconsciously, and then we wake up and way whatever 30 however old you guys are, but you wake up or in his case, 12 the fucking homework, Stop looking at me. You know, and you might happen you go. Now I'm this person with all these beliefs, who sees the world the way I see the world and I have all these values in This awareness and this understanding and these limitations and this idea about how shit works. But what if there's another way to think and see and function and believe and explore?
It feels like older people tend to become become more and more conservative.
you're generally Yeah. And you know, you're one of our older mates, but I feel like you're also open and wanting to test yourself. What does that what does that do to the to life in regards to looking back because I guess if you will conservative, you sort of get to put your blinkers on and get into dogma and get into not really interested. Yes. Being open minded at your age. Yes. How do you reconcile your past beliefs? Hmm.
So I'm less dogmatic than I've ever been. And unless I'm more open, and I'm more humble and aware It sounds I'm humble saying that but but in that humility in that I'm more aware of what I don't know than ever. I don't think I'm an awesome person or anything like that but what I mean is the older I get the more I got didn't really know that I just thought I knew that you know i fact that I've sparked up so many things and I I mean, I went through a period I think you know this I don't know if you know this where I was as churches fuck evangelical Christian reading the Bible every day for years in my early 20s where I'm like getting higher on the Messiah fi you know, fill up the Lord's wrong I don't want to be right come on that brothers and sisters and and I was very fixed in my thinking and and and i still as you inferred I still think a lot of what is in the Bible more than New Testament than the old but is amazing and beautiful and and even if it's just kind of a handbook fell off a lot of it. Not all of it is amazing, because it comes from our trust come from a place of love, and a place of kindness and service and caring. But then at the same time, you know that the likelihood of that being written 2000 or so years ago, well, the Old Testament before that, but and that being translated to this thing we have in 2020 on January one, and that being the literal Word of God, I don't think so.
Do you think it serves us for time to think that we know but he said, there was a time where you weren't as not consider but you you weren't thinking I don't know this stuff. You knew it. And so I'm thinking relating this to Korea, and to be certain on what it is that you know, the thing that you're doing versus more of an open like, there is so much that I don't know. And so, stepping up as a leader, or someone who is, you know, like an expert or someone just like leading the pack doesn't doesn't serve you to be like, I don't have I don't know much. But I do like you actually don't know a fuckload. But then you just actually
facing the railing and ambiguity by saying, hey, guys come on this journey with me. But hang on. I also don't know all the answers.
Yeah, I reckon if you don't do that you're being disingenuous, because who the fuck knows all the answers? Yeah. And so because, I mean, one of the first things I do when I'm talking to a big audience, or even if I'm on my podcast, or whatever, is when I'm talking about something, I always talk about my lack of knowledge, my fuck ups, my flaws, but at the same time, I'm a lifelong learner, which is why I'm doing a PhD in my 50s. And I'm curious, and I'm aware of what I don't know and I'm happy to put up my hand. I think the more I don't know if I'm a later but I guess I'm kind of a leader in some ways to coach, mentor all that stuff. But the more real I am and the more I share my fellow ability and my flaws and my fuck ups with people, the more they relate. If I'm this, you know, this high watermark of human behaviour and integrity and intelligence and perfection and execution, then people go fuck yeah, I get why He does it because he's these frake but when you got Nah, I've written whatever I've written books and have worked and Telly and radio and have had a successful company, and I've employed 500 people and I've done all this shit. And and I made 1000 mistakes. And every step of the way, I felt insecure and I felt like a fraud. And I didn't know what I was doing and I was making shit up and it's like, especially in the early days, and I this, this feeling I have at uni right now where I'm sitting with all these highly intelligent, highly academic, highly successful in this space people where I'm at the bottom of the ladder, and I'm totally okay with it, because I've been at the bottom of the ladder every time. And so you can't sorry, you can't become I love this idea that I've been sharing with people lately is that you can't become a black belt without being a white belt. So when you start a podcast here is what as fuck your white belt.
We can't lose that either. You know, and you
have to get to the point where, you know, I'm just going to do I'm going to show up at the dojo, I'm just going to get my ass kicked. I'm just going to get smashed. I'm going to learn shit. I'm going to play with people fought with people, train with people, learn with people live with people, communicate and connect with people who are better at it than me, because I get dragged up. I'm not interested at any level in being the smartest in the room. Yeah, I definitely want the moment I'm the smartest in the room. I'm going to another room.
I feel like is quite involved to be meta or have conversations that are medicine. You talking about something that you know a lot about, but then talking about how you don't know much about the thing that you're talking about, because it's so broad. And as Do you think it's been different in the past? Do you think there was a time where it didn't add as much value to sort of point out all the stuff that you don't know? And to lead it from a marketing? I think a lot of I think
it's shifted I think people some people are becoming there's still a lot of cheesy bullshit, you know, that annoys me. But I think one of the smartest things that Tony Robbins did in the last five years is release a doc called I'm not your guru, like which was while the same time acting like a fucking guru the whole time. But I like that, hey, and not that he ever positioned himself verbally anyway as as a guru, but I think it's wise for people just to go I'm just another block and I'm in a different position or just another girl. I'm in a different position of Got a bit more attention than you but you know, like you think about, think about successful people, if we could get, say 1000 high profile people versus 1000 of the general population, and then compare, for example, drug use, and drug addiction, alcohol abuse and depression and anxiety, it's in both groups, but it's misrepresented. Like it's, it's disproportionately higher in people who you would think have a successful life.
And I think it's important to understand that
what's happening externally, like some people look like they had the shiny life, that tickled the house, the car, the brand, the body, the partner, the bank balance, the you know, there's this representation of success and whatever, but so many times Inside that picture is this broken human that has got low self esteem that has got terrible body image that that feels like a fraud that lacks confidence that is insecure. That really what they need is not more shit externally, what they need is a fucking hug. What I need is somebody who just loves them, for them, not for what they can do for them. Like there are people in my life. And I don't care if I hear this because they know who they are. But there are people in my life that I only ever hear from when they want something. And then there are other people where I say the fine, I'll go, I'll cool because I know this person just loves me. And they're a friend. You know. And so I think that it's really prudent to be careful about managing the external that what's going on out here but also which you're doing now with your meditation and I don't know about you big fella, but where you kind of taking care of your mental and emotional and spiritual, whatever that means for you space, and being fully cognizant that you can have the best life but in the middle of that life, you're a fucking train wreck. So therefore, life's actually shit.
I think we want people to have the answer is like, if you think about the course of the exercise courses that aren't specific or tailored to you, but they have thousands of people signing up monthly. Yes, it's because they, you either feel like there's an answer. This is the answer. I remember, like I've spoken to you and ask you questions. And your answer has been, you know, this is not specific to you know, like, you always give that caveat. Because it is so it needs to be so specific to an individual to for it to make sense. The reason I asked you say could be around fitness like what what do you think of paleo diet? We want to hear that there is an answer. Yeah, and Hannah and the hard answer to the question is, what's not specific we need to get into it. And it's like, that's not sexy. And so I think you look to these people like gurus, we want to ask a question them to have the answer not to tell them that tell us, it's going to be a journey. And we'll do
it. either go on my podcast called professor in broad hope, who's a genius, you should get him on. He started the first into I think he started the first integrative medicine clinic in the world, definitely in Australia. And we'll talk about and he before he became a doctor, and then like an integrative medicine specialist and advocate for medical marijuana analyst. Before he did his medical training. He did agricultural science. So he did a whole degree in that at university, so he's an expert in soil as well as and he's very fucking smart. Anyway, I had him on the show, and we were talking and I said, What are you taking? He said, I take mega doses of vitamin C and I'm like, pen and paper. How much exactly this milligrammes a day? And I'm like, which one they wouldn't tell me on the podcast because he didn't want to promote it so you know so I literally once we got into it which one how much I'm talking strike them they lock a little robot getting Well, if the professor can do it, he's a professor and he looks really good and he 70 odd I'm like, I'm the world assign.
Well think about 90s TV, like Good morning, Australia or whatever. It's like, we've got a Craig Harper on the show. You've got fucking two minutes. Yeah. And give us every answer. Yeah, it's like if you think about Dr. Rawls, or any of these old school media was, was a one dimensional key message,
approach kind of bullshit. Really, really. I mean, you know, this is beautiful. This is the new this is. This is why podcasts are so awesome because I have no agenda. I don't care what people do. I'm not pushing a product to programme. A brand. Don't care. Like all of us. to do is share from my heart what I think and know. And and people are going to you know, and there are no soundbites, there are no,
it's hard to produce, right? I feel like they could even be having done like a little bit of talk back where I was the tech person, you need to come up with fast bits, the bit of advice, it's going to work. But
here's the three pieces of tech you need to put in the bin. But then here's the others.
The funny thing is that if you listen to it, like 99% of the time, people who are actual experts will say, leave your number with the producer, I'll call you back because everyone's fucking different everyone. I don't know what phone you're using, I need to get all these details. Whereas within, I guess, the old school media, it was encouraged to have the answer. And I guess maybe things like low fat diets and all the sort of things got across the line in a much sort of bigger way because of that one dimensional And that's a really good, that low fat thing is a really interesting speaking of science, that's a really interesting conversation because
so low fat diets came out in the 70s and proliferated in the 80s. And but if you look at a there's a quite a few graphs on the internet where you look at the proliferate proliferation of low fat diets and the incidence of obesity. And it just goes, it's a parallel. Yeah, so you know, low fat eating equated to high fat humans, because we replaced the fat with sugar. So which creates an insulin response, which creates this whole metabolic state that predisposes people to gain weight and be fatter. But that that speaking of science is one for you. You might have heard it you'll fucking love it. So this is my best recollection. That's about right, which is terrible coming from a scientist but but the studies real so there, there was a guy called me So keys who conducted a study, Mr. 90 sevens on it is fuckin googling it already. And so case i in SEO case, and he was commissioned to do research, I think by the American government to look at different countries and different cultures around the way that they ate. So their typical eating behaviours, dots and the correlation to our base D levels. So they did a 28 state 28 country study. So he's, his agenda was low fat diets are good. So what he was trying to prove was that low fat diets are the way to go. So all the data came back took a very long time. It's like a meta study, and 21 of the 28 countries refuted his or contradicted his hypothesis. So what they did was they cut out those 21 cut countries from the study, and they rocked up, presented their findings and went okay, so we looked at 700 countries and here our results and shit like that happens all the time where people have an agenda and they they will find a way now I might have fucked up a bit of that story but bear with me but but that happens all the time where researchers or companies perhaps who employed people to research funded by the company they of course they have an agenda it's like there was I don't know I won't even say because I want to get in trouble but um I heard on pretty good advice that there was a phone company that did a whole lot of research around whether or not pressing a phone again, she could create neurological problems brain damage, in other words, because they wanted to, they wanted everyone to take a fucking breath and go look, we did all this and it's so good. And it came back the opposite.
And so they went
put it in they spent millions and when are you researchers fuck off and pie them and went and just crushed it.
What about the food period? It had to end up with that bloody doozy. It wasn't aliens. Well, that was that was
that was probably around well, and that's one of the things that I think this is important that if you really are a student and you really want to just share positive, real, truthful messages, then you also need to recognise when you've been saying stuff that's wrong and acknowledge it and I grew up when I grew up, I started working in gyms in 1992 and 1980s. And 90s. The food pyramid was it wasn't even the right age, it was just like science. This is the best way to eight This was in textbooks. This is in university courses. Here in the fundamentals. This was what dietitians were taught. And these are the high watermarks for nutritional advice. dietitians were taught to to base diet diets for their patients and clients on the food pyramid. And then one day week when we found out that's all kind of flawed science. So Remember having decided, well, whole bunch people? Sorry, got it wrong.
What happens to dieticians that do all of this training? Yes. around something that turned out to be bullshit. I mean, do they get their money back?
Well, I mean, not all of its bullshit. But some of its like with exercise science, it's luck with medicine. Everything's evolving. It's luck with which I think, you know, engineering and do everything changes and what used to be common practice or what used to be regarded as legit science, we kind of learn new stuff. So I think that's any professional industry. But
that's why pop culture is having such an impact on all of this because people can point to pivotal moments, like low fat diets and like, you know, the food pyramid and say, hey, these experts were wrong. And so based on that, if you can't, you can't say that this is potentially wrong because your foundational knowledge is flawed. Yeah. Which can Be a bit of a head fact. Like, I guess that's like fake news, any of these things? It's like, Okay, well, it is a lot easier in life to be able to say this is right or this is wrong. I don't know if the general public or tribes of people can work well, when it could be a grey area. Um,
I think, you know, that, that that desire that we have to, to know everything is part of the problem. Like we just we just don't and we never will, you know, so. I think it's just, you know, as you learn new things and unlearn. You know, I always say to people, a big part of becoming a great teacher, student mental coach, is being able to unlearn and I've had to unlearn lots of things, you know, and some of the things that I taught in the 80s I shudder at now, you know, some of the things I said in the 80s and 90s. And even to thousands of Mike, I quoted, I think that and why did I teach that and you go Well, I know better now. So I'll do better now, unlike the way that not so much you teaching, but the way that you guys did podcasts two years ago, or the way that you feel now the way that you know, as you learn more stuff, you drop stuff off, you employ new things, you. And if someone asks you for advice about something now, you'd give them probably different advice to three years ago, but three years ago, you thought that was it, and this is cutting edge. And this is how it works. Now you got, maybe it doesn't exactly work like that.
It feels like given the operating system that society is running on at the moment with kancil culture and all that that type of stuff. There's got to be some form of correction, like when everyone if we, if we can just assume that everyone is flawed. Everyone has problems, like no one is perfect, yes. Then we need to readjust our operating system in the way that we conduct our lives and how we judge people, right? Because I just wonder what point it's going to get worse. Like, I like we actually need to be able to, like live a productive life.
And what about this idea just loving people who don't agree with you, or think like you, or share necessarily your ideology, philosophy, theology, what about just being a good human doesn't mean that you need to love everything that they do or like, I've got friends that they're nearly everything about them is different to me. Like I've had friends gone on, you know, you doing that page to get it? Yeah, that's like I might you don't have to do it. I expect you to do it, you know, it's just, I think being able to,
you know, be okay with
not having to live in an echo chamber like a lot of people feel more comfortable and confident and certain when they surround themselves with people who agree with them. And that's the problem is That's a thing called confirmation bias is when I think that my behaviour or my choice or my lifestyle, or my habit or my philosophy when I 100% think I am right, then I only pay attention to people who sound like me, which means I'm arrogant, which means I've got a superiority complex, which means I'm unteachable. So I go through life knowing that I can. Everything I've said that I could be bullshit.
You know what I mean? It's hard though. Because when if you look at, say, if you have a friend who comes to you and speaks to you about a certain topic, and you just don't agree, and then you bring it up, and then they crack the sheets, and so then you're like, I won't bring anything up to that person because they can't handle any other opinion on this thing. And so, what I'm saying is, I think it you see how it braids. You see how people just gravitate because it's these people who don't want to change? so uncomfortable. Because, you know, half the time you not want to have an argument.
Yeah, but I think also it's Yeah. It's, it's tough, like when you have somebody that that they want, that they get mad or angry or offended because you don't agree with them might be time to reassess that relationship. I'm like, so yeah, yeah, I've got a litmus test for friends and it's this is my life better with this person in it or out of it? And that's, you know, I'm not talking about acquaintances, but in terms of people that I opened the door. Okay, we are friends, you're in my personal life, that many people.
I mean, this is probably a Tommy, you gets complicated with family, because not everyone wants to actually be I wouldn't be friends with their family members, unless they were family.
Blood. And I think often that's just about trying to manage that relationship. You know, I got I love my dad. My dad's a good dude, but we're kind of sim dessima with some things. And not that we've ever had. We've probably had to blues in my whole life but because we're quite different, like I had problems with not problems, but I would often be frustrated or disappointed, because my dad wouldn't behave the way he I thought he should. Like how dare you not be like me Dad? And my advice is right dad, and I love you and some coming from a good place so therefore, it's just ridiculous. So now I expect my dad to be like my dad, and I'm not disappointed anymore. And I'm not frustrated. So frustration we actually we say this thing off, Aki frustrate me, the person doesn't frustrate you, you get frustrated as a byproduct of your own expectations of how they should be. So I don't mean this to sound bad. But if I expect, say someone who's addicted to drugs, to behave like they're addicted to drugs, and then Not being having no faith in them or being disappointed or being discriminatory or judgmental, but because that's what that they behaviour has taught me the last hundred encounters, probably what's going to happen this taught. Or maybe a better example is somebody who, last time hundred times we had a conversation that went down a particular route, that's probably going to go down that route again today, and that's not good or bad. That's just understanding what to expect from people. You know, when you expect people to be like you and think like you, you set yourself up for frustration, which is not to say if somebody thinks in a destructive way that you're supporting it or advocating it. It's just understanding. It's like, I hate addiction, but I love addicts because I work with drug addicts. I hate alcoholism, but I love alcoholics because I care about them, because I want to help them and I understand the disease of addiction and alcoholism is I understand people who might be diametrically opposed to my philosophy. But I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can still have a friendship with him. Do you get reflective this time of year? Looking back and then looking? What's going on now? 2020? Not, not really. I could be But no, not really. I think I think I'm very grateful my whole life. I feel very blessed. What about
achieving? So the difference from now? You as a human now to 15 years ago when you try to build what you have now? Yes. What are the learnings for the next 15 years looking forward and how you achieve some greater thing or whatever you're looking to
For a long time in business anyway, it's really about more physical, measurable, you know, KPIs, how many people are watching the podcast, how much What's our sponsorship or you know, how many bumps Getting on states to workshops or how many members do I have? Or how many clients do I have at my gym? Whereas now for me it's more about it's more value driven than money driven or business driven. So, for me, it's more about the which sounds Nath and probably predictable, but it is truly about the amount of people I can help. Because you get to I get to a point, I got to a point where I went, Okay, so on. I'm not rich, but on a financial level. I'm okay. I got a chance I got a house. I got some stuff. I don't have any debt. How much money does the bloke who doesn't drink or smoke or do drugs? Or have a wife or have kids? How much money does that guy need? And the answer is not much.
See, so 6 million.
So for me to earn x, say my my bottom line is x to survive. I probably own five x. So why would I need 10 X or 15 X on 20 x You know, domain. And so for me, it's more about and again, as cheesy as this might sound, building men, emotional and spiritual wealth so that I just like who I am, I'm more interested in who I'm becoming and who I am and how I'm serving then I then I am with what I drive or where I live.
What What if you took that approach 15 years ago
I always had a bit of that in me, which was why I went on that spiritual journey when I was young with my tambourine and my caftan at church, but I like when you in the middle of a practical reality, like a business that is a gym with lots of moving parts. You've still got a landlord and you've still got, you know, mouths to feed and people to pay and, and I think when I got out of the situation, like when I got out of my last gym five years ago, a lot of the practical expectations and pretty That were they obviously were instantly gone. So there was an element of freedom that came with that, that just let me now there's a lot of things that I don't have to worry about anymore. And I'm very aware of that. And I'm very aware that, that my life compared to a lot of people's lives is very easy. So I don't I don't pretend that I'm killing the guy or, you know, there. And I talked to people all the time, who are just, you know, like john, that, you know, that got blown up, Johnny, who got blown up in an industrial accident, and, you know, it was meant to die, and then he was going to be a quadriplegic and impaired and anyway, I see him three days, days a week, so just seeing someone like him, keeps me just so grateful and humble and aware that I'm spoiled. I always say to my friends, if I complain about my life, punch me in the face, because my last definitely not the problem.
Five years ago with the last gym, was there any baggage that remained That you were expecting I guess we all have the transitional point of when this happens then I will arrive at a place of calm and accepting of what I have. Did you have to do any work of cutting the last bit of baggage?
Yeah, I think because I was so used to being in so used to being our boss and having lots of moving even though it was quite stressful towards the end. I was used to having a 10,000 square foot building with my name across the front of it on the peon Highway in Brighton and going and people knowing where Harper's is and and then part of me my ego, I guess, was like Well, once I get out of that people are going to think I'm a loser now because I you know, I said there was lots of shit because I got a sense of self and self esteem and confidence from me being Craig Harper. You know, fitness industry leader, pioneer and all that stuff.
Did you fear it before it came on? Was it only I didn't really
fear it. was, it was so messy towards the end just in terms of taking care get getting out of the building and landlord was just an interesting chap. And there was a bit of bits and pieces going on there that we won't go into. But once I got out of it, there was a relief. And then there was a bit of, you know, like maybe a month later where I started to go. How will I be busy every day? Now? What will I do? Even though I didn't know I already had enough Work and Income to be more than fine. But yeah, for me, I need I need to learn and I need to be stimula. If you said to me, perhaps we're going to give you $2 million in 2020. But you can't do any work. You can't coach anyone. You can't do a presentation. You can't write an article. You can't share anything online. You have to you can't you can't write down your ideas. You can't write a book. You've got to do fucking nothing. If you want to jail you've got you've got to watch Telly You can't do anything productive, but will give you I wouldn't take I 100% wouldn't take it 100% because it would, it would kill me. And it's just like, I think also you get to a point where, you know, I forget what the figure is maybe you know, Tommy, but I think it's like 80 or 100 grand where money really makes a difference, but depends on the contract 75,000 bucks or something. And then above that, there's no correlation with happiness. So I'm sure that numbers going up all the time, then. You know, you go and you think it does. You think and if that was true, then all the wealthy people would have the least problems that as we said before, that's not the case.
What about like a lot of people can relate to the idea of having some form of messy thing happen in their life in regards to relationships, whether it's a business partnership gone wrong, or family issues or whatever it is, how have you if we're constantly changing and evolving and Looking back and and cringing at the things that we have done. How do you? do you reconcile your actions in the hard times to be able to let it go and move on?
What do you mean reconcile?
Well, I guess like if you like, say if you leave a job, right, and it's like, not that nice. You're not feeling great about it. Yep. Is there a? Yeah, I just I just wonder what the the, the feeling is, as we are constantly evolving, and we cringe at all the things like I probably shouldn't have.
So, if there's something I can undo or fix, I'll undo it or fix it. If I can't. I'll do my best to let go of it. And this is very, you know, Eckhart Tolle, the power of now is being present. And I'm always trying to be like being with you here right now. I'm not thinking of anything I've got to do later. There's nothing I'm not thinking about what happened this morning. I'm trying to be present. Actually,
I saw a guy the other day walking along reading the power of now. It was a little bit while I wasn't looking where he's going, Yeah,
And, and I think just
controlling my controllables and going well, like I've done dumb shit and and I've apologise to people and I've heard people and I've been a decade I've done some good stuff I've done have helped people. And for me, it's always about trying to have this is maybe the hardest thing for humans to do. Other than all the practical survival things but on an emotional and and communication and relationship level is to have self awareness. Because in other words, what's the experience like? What's the Tommy experience like? What's the Joshua Mr. 97 experience like, What's it like being around me? Because I thought It's been interesting for me going to uni where all of a sudden, I'm, well, I'm nobody anyway, but I'm definitely nobody there. I'm just an older guy who's doing a PhD. And then I give a fuck that. They're lovely, but they don't. There's no, like when I go to an event to Craig hopper event, I'm Craig hopper at a Craig hopper event. It's a different dynamic, and there's lots of energy and fun and respect and interaction. And, you know, in that moment, like you're being that person playing that role and not playing that role, but you're you and then you go to uni and you're like,
I'm actually it's, it's awesome, because you go I'm just another as Nicole says about jail. I'm just another beer bam, in the shower. I'm just another fucking dude. I'm just, you know, I am nobody. It's just the story. I've told myself that, on that all that so I get a couple of times. I'd have to go to a few classes before you realise you don't have to actually stand at the front
will tell you they're not good. classes,
No idea. No, there's no exams, there's no essays to write. There's no no that you just write academic research papers and then you hand them in, you get them. We don't hand them in hopefully I'll write for academic research papers and get them published in academic journals. That's and so
day to day so you go in using Word, putting it up,
Microsoft Word, what's the deal Google Scholar, okay. And another thing called PubMed. There's a bunch of Academic Search engines. And I'm like, right now I'm, I don't want to bore people, but I'm just coming up with the overall look and feel of my what I'm the questions I'm asking the research I'm doing. What what I'm suggesting. So what I'm suggesting is, I think people find this a bit interesting is that the way that motivation is defined and discussed and Understood in an academic setting is different generally, to the way that motivation is understood in the general community. So in, in academia when they talk or when we talk about, see how it doesn't include myself in academia, to be academics, in academia, when they talk about motivation, essentially, they're using that word interchangeably with the word reason. So, Joshua's motivation for getting out of bed was to go to work to make some money to support his family, or whatever. Joshua's reason for getting out of bed was to go to work to make some money, right? It's the same, it's analogous, right? But in the general community for the last 35 years, when I talk to people about motivation, they're talking about how they feel that token about their emotional state, I'm pumped, I'm excited, I'm in the zone. I'm motivated. So they're talking about something different to having an underlying reason. So for example, somebody who smokes, intellectually knows it's bad for them, and they would like to give up. So they have a consistent reason, right to give up smoking, but they might not have the accompanying level of motivation to get the wheels turning. So in other words, I'm talking about motivation from the point of view of that state, that excited emotional, psychological state that we get into where something happens. We're motivated, we're in the zone, we're pumped, we joined the gym, we're fuckin running around with our hands on our head for three weeks training, and then we drop off then we drop off then it's three months later, we're not motivated. The reasons still there Monday to be healthy, but the motivation as has disappeared and so what happens with most people or a lot of people is they get motivated they make a decision they change your behaviour, they get a result. Eventually they get d motivated then the choices stop the behaviour of stopping the result. Stop. So the challenges How do I keep doing what works? Like you guys are fully committed to this. I know you talk about your 10 years, and there will be times when you go on and feel like a fucking podcast. On fucking I'm having a shit day I'm normal. I'm human. I'm a bit worried about stuff. I'm stressed and anxious. Hi, everyone, Welcome to the daily Talk Show episode.
You know what is the noun? It is not,
because that's life, because you're going to go through peaks and troughs, and I watch lots of what you do and listen to lots of what you do. And almost 100% of the time and probably just because I know you sometimes maybe where I can go someone's not that anything's bad, but you might be having a bad day because you're human. But But you turn up you show up and it's not because you're motivated. It's because you are fully fucking committed to this process. And so the challenge is, how do I build an amazing podcast or how do I lose 30 kilos or how do I Whatever fill in the blank, whatever the goal is, how do I stay doing those things that create that result when I copy fact, right? And so the real challenge is how do I stay productive, productive and effective when I'm not motivated. And so that's what I'm looking at. That's my PhD that around exercise
is a bunch of stuff around artists and the idea of genius and genius is something that's not within but something that visits I could almost see like parallels there with motivation, which is like, you know, a lot of the you know, the best poets or philosophers it's like, the gene like, they sit down and they've got a you know, a pen and pad or whatever it is. And they're, the genius arrives, they write, but then it can go away and by detaching the genius from the character from the person. You're actually allowed to visit more often because it's something that's not attached necessarily to your identity. These people into crystals to charging charging crystals
always, at the end of sorry, told me at the end of the workshop, I often ask this question and I go put up your hand if you're a bit motivated and inspired, more motivated and inspired than you were at the start, pretty much every hand goes up, and I go, that's going to pass. I go, it's Sunday, that'll be gone by Tuesday. Because it is it's what it's what we get excited, then we get unexcited. So that's the challenge. My job is not to inspire or motivate people. My job is to help people to help themselves. So I always say I care about what you're doing when you can't be fact because what you do when you can't be fact, what you do when you don't want to what you do when it's uncomfortable, unfamiliar, uncertain, messy. That's what matters.
Do you think maybe it's because we also communicate as a culture that like, things always need to be fun and that you're enjoying it? And it's
another good it's such a fucking stupid idea because it's completely unhealthy. Yeah, like even the goal of us listen to something on the way here. Lewis how who's got the School of greatness or something? It's not a bad podcast. To be honest. Pay annoys me a bit sometimes. Shout out to Lewis. Now he's all right. But I was listening to he's told me this dude. Can you check the lightest podcast the name of the gods singer won't be the lightest baton this comes up but that would told him about this idea of and he asked this question. It was something like, you know, because the goal is is you know, that we're happy that the talking about like this idea of perpetual happiness. Some Dan Reynolds Yeah, Imagine Dragons. Thank you that Anyway, good conversation. And I like Lewis and I lock. What's his name, Dan? Yeah, he's cool. But I was thinking it's actually a dumb idea, the pursuit of perpetual happiness because it's not realistic. It's like, I'm spending my life trying to find a fucking unicorn that don't exist. There aren't Know that it's a nice idea, but they're not real. And perpetual happiness is not real. So I think a better goal is like happiness is awesome and when it's there and if we can create it for sure. But a better goal, perhaps is to be able to just self manage in the middle of sadness, and anxiety and depression and happiness and joy and good dies and shit dies. Because if you're if you're waiting on this perpetually happy life, you're going to be
So the challenges Go on, I'm having a shit day. All right, well done, turn the volume up on it and make it a catastrophe. Just go. It's a shit day. I'm going to have shit dies. This is one.
Yeah. So let's shift if it's reframing it into this as part of the journey and to expect it and to embrace it. And it's like, I remember hearing it's like, without friction, there isn't traction. And I always constantly think of that, like when it's hard. It's like the hard thing trying to talk work out how to get cash flow right or things like that. That is friction to be able to say, okay, like you've actually got an opportunity to dive all this in where if it's easy all the time if it all just works. Yeah, you never actually fucking learning. Yeah, what you're
doing with their signals is just reef reframing what the signal is telling us so the sadness is telling you something. I've got a question.
You're ready. We're gonna fuckin throw the podcast into turmoil. Ready? Yeah. Tommy. Yes. What's going on with you? What's going on with me? it tell me what's going on with you because I'm sensing something. I know. I love you. I'm pretty
good at orokin This is the closest I've ever felt to being burnt out. And
so lets you and I are going to help him a little bit. Miss 97 Feel free to chip in. So what so physically, emotionally, mentally,
yeah, I haven't been able to have it. I haven't been able to get 100% Well, in my book I don't think I think it's just mentally and physically haven't had been able to sleep sleep enough. We've been working a lot. And I think it's just a cumulation of doing it for a long time before we have a break, which I think if anything, I've listened to my body more than I ever have this year. And I and this is important, so I can have some sleep. It's like, I fucking want to listen to my body. I go to bed pretty early, but it's still not enough. I don't and so it's like at that point, so I kinda have to push through some level of pain to get there. And I feel like that's that point for me.
What's the feel free not to answer this and feel free to edit this? What's, what's the underlying anxiety
is back. He's Benghazi. Stein. Yeah. What's the underlying anxiety Id
like what are you? What are you scared of at the moment? And by the way, we're all scared of shit. And they included but what are you scared of? At the moment?
I think there's been a bunch of unknown like stuff in our business podcast. I think it just feels like the thing is you can you can feel you can feel severely ungrateful for where we've got to when you just feeling a bit fucking numb to the whole experience. I don't feel sad. I tend to feel sad. Yeah, I'm pretty grateful for that. But it just is like he kind of just would you just saying
it through. I think it's tough because you guys and I've said this many times that I talked to power talk two to three people a week about your podcast and use you as an example and it's, you can get to the point we go back We're grinding we're grinding and the efforts are nine and a half and the returns are one. Sometimes no disrespect to the Bronx we lovely but in terms of Like it's great to put this thing out into the world but you still got to pay for this joint you got to pay for that blog and you've got a you've got a you know it's it's sometimes the return and the investment disproportionate you know and so it's just it is it is but but what you both doing is or what you're all doing I should say it's it's, it's it's amazing like it and I know and that's not me trying to make you feel good like it's just it is really really fucking amazing the quality that you turn out every day and I know you have episodes that are nine and episodes that are a seven as Do I have done podcasts? I don't I in fact, I've done podcasts that I didn't even hear you know, but it's it's just in the middle of that like I think for you You're both gonna you know you're gonna both look back in a couple of years and go thank fuck we personally
Well, I think if you can see like understanding what Josh is saying. It's like the the hard times are actually the ones that get you to the next Good time Yeah, when you can actually fathom that and I think I've understood that more than ever this year is like when you don't feel great doesn't mean that it's in the fucking world it's actually a part of the process. It's a hard pill to swallow for for a lot of people because it's annoying times a fucking in
sadness, especially living in the present. And so they feel all you've got is the present moment and the present moment feels fact. But I think that there is that there's the faith element to Ryan, which is like, Okay, if we tell the story of this is a Seth Godin talks about it's not about not being tied, it's knowing what to do with the tide. And so part of it is that which is like which, with the platform we have, it's actually fucking harder to hide the tide because the white people show that their tide is what you
have to hide the tide she had taught I don't think you need to come on every day. Go Hey, guys. Hi guys. Hey, got on Fox. If you get off, you know, I'm fucked. I'm tired, but I'm here. Yeah. And I'm normal. And it's okay.
The funny thing is, though, I think that like, we've talked about the physiological change that we can have through doing the show, so the show can actually, we can feel a certain way before the show, and be changed. Yeah, through the process of doing it. And so there's a part of it too, which is, which is a fine balance of authenticity, doing all of that sort of stuff, and also showing up and then at the end of the Yes, you know,
but I think it's, you do want to bring your best self and you don't want to go Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm having a shit die. But you can also, you know, like, it's okay. It's like people because you are generally high energy and inspirational and fun and so are you. You
just find them Yeah,
What I was going to ask to is, how do you
how do you two
Feel free to edit any of this but this is something I've been
nice without an editor is really
how do you to manage because you spend so much time together man you are similar but different to you assim By the way, I reckon this is going to be like for me before I answer that question. I reckon you've really grown this year, because you've kind of gone to me You seem like from a kid to a grown up, because you always had a lot of that kid energy. And I think you should still try and hang on to that but you're you've kind of matured a lot, which is good. How do you manage to keep your or do you have a strategy around keeping your relationship healthy?
I reckon. Like I've been like, especially December and for me, it's been like radical ownership, specifically on what I'm doing right so it's actually tight like from perspective saying, What can I be and this is something I have to work on. I think that within partnerships, the big mistake that people can make is to always try and seek equal. So it's like okay, we all thought we were all performing at the highest thing where there's times that I'm not performing there's times when Tommy's not performing and that's fine. And so part of it I think, from a culture point of view, making sure that we're operating as a team isn't almost siloing some of that which is like and so for me, the biggest thing has been when i when i frame things as fuck I mean this situation or, or things like that, I can easily if I can give myself an out. I will if I can blame someone else I will. And so if I just don't make that an options, okay, yes, no one else. Yeah, we've picked with with made all of these decisions. And so then it's saying I can I'm just showing up doing as much as you can, and then figuring it out realising that it's temporary as well. I think that I used to think that if I do this thing now, it's going to have to be the thing that happens forever. Whereas It can also be like, you know, temporary like things and temporary things are constantly changing. And so yeah, I think that's what like even I guess within the podcast format, I think that there's there's a thing of say, say seeking that equal thing around the conversations that we've gotten comfortable in the last week is like the adult bit that you're talking about with Tommy is his ability to be like, I'm actually fucking exhausted. So if I don't have anything that I think that I want to ask, I'm not just gonna fucking blurt out Yeah, we
don't need to go how many questions have you asked me back? I need three more. Yeah. And
so I think that like that's,
that's just authentic done. I can tell he's a bit taught. That's just being human. It's good. It's good. Um, you know, there are days where I'm fucking so tight. Like, I'm starting to think about bed at 5pm. Like, I'm so excited about bed. Yeah. And other days where I'm an idiot numbers to get out of my skin. Can I ask you a question? Miss 97? Yeah, go for it. So I want to ask you what I feel like I'm running the show now. Sorry, I'm just getting it.
So you've been full time with the boys For how long?
Maybe like 910 months. Okay. So,
apart from all the technical stuff, but what have what have you learned? I mean, you've learned how to, you know, do all the stuff you do from a technical point of view, but just from a growing up point of view and travelling with the boys overseas and being around to really interesting creative cats and meeting fucking a multitude of people on the podcast. Like, have you changed and what have you learned
this day? more of an openness to learning and taking on different perspectives. So there's, I've definitely become more empathetic, I'd usually have these, I guess like preconceived ideas of things and then being able to look at it from Joshua's perspective or Tommy's perspective or if we have a guest on their perspective. It's definitely broaden my horizon in that regard. I think the other thing is also, all the the showing up stuff has been massive. Yeah. Realising that you, you don't have to be perfect in everything you do. And everything you show up in is massive. So I think
those two things yeah, confidence. Yeah, confidence is our social confidence. Yeah, I met so many people this year, the people that we've wanted to, we've put in, you know, 10 years of effort to get here and the He's making these great people. And so it's like, he doesn't understand that but he just is been embracing it and yes sucking that.
Right. I think it's I think that's also the perfection thing. It's like, I probably had an idea that I need to activate perfect in this way in this conversation or in this interaction. And so realising that you can, you don't have to be this perfect figure when you go into an interaction, you can just be more of yourself, I guess.
And the more you are yourself, the more you're going to connect and you know, have fun and people are going to connect with you and but also which Tommy kind of said exactly what I was going to say is like, you probably don't realise it because you're in the middle of it and but you and I'm in this sound, I'm not blowing smoke up their asses, but he like this is such a fuckin awesome incubator for growth and creativity, and meeting awesome people. Like, I wish Where are you? 19 or 2020 I wish when I was 20 I got to meet all the people that you're meeting. And and like just listening to the conversations and being able to ask people questions and so awesome, like you're going to learn so much more than someone who's sitting at uni free.
Yeah. Well, I think even like David Epstein with range, that book that you recommended, and I think that like 97 is a great example of what that is words like, by the end of 10 years, he'll be the best CEO that a company could have, because he'll have the emotional intelligence, the financial understanding, you'll be able to tick all those box boxes and I think that's what's exciting, too, is that he's leaned into I think at the beginning you sort of as sort of leaders you can shield or whatever, but then you see the benefits in if we're not seeking perfect within anything. It's a different way. Not if we can't tackle this thing right now, giving 97 that job, and then being able to lead him through that. Within, like, there's been so many important like such huge amounts of growth in regards to like, even how we show up from like a social media perspective, like we used to struggle to get a post up every day and out consistent share Jordan very easily defined what success looks like and used to take him half an hour to work out a caption. Yeah, now he's doing, you know, six captions in you know, 15 minutes, you know, yeah. So, but I think it's also it's the benefit of that daily thing of showing up, and also being able to, if you are tired, being able to understand how you respond if you're super exhausted and you almost like lose your filter or you lose your ability to fucking have to have a mask. Yes, it becomes a lot clearer what mask it is that we're wearing. So then when we Feeling better, we might actually show up in a different way.
And it must have been tough for you to at the start to because there are some things and this was hard for me in business where you go, Well, I know I can wash this glass at a 10 out of 10. But I've got to give it to him to wash and it's only going to be a two hour because he's never washed a glass and I'm a fucking expert glass washer. So I'm gonna have to watch him stumble and hand it back to me and I'll walk you know, so you have to you start doing things that both you could have done much quicker and much better. Yeah, but that's the whole white belt black belt you got Well, he can't become a black belt unless he first learns how to roll and fall and get punched in the head. And you know, that's and then eventually you grow this other human that works with you, not for you. So it's now part of the team rather than your the team and there's this should kick and I think that's, you know, are you still shaking? We love it. I get ahead of yourself.
there's a there's a called Caden's by a guy named Pete Williams, who's a entrepreneur here in Melbourne. And he talks about the you gotta make $1 before you can make 10 bucks and 10 bucks before you can make 101 hundred before 1000. And I think that that's like even, that's very much how we've we're trying to do things across the board. Now exciting thing is that, even though we might be in the realm of being able to sell 10 grand jobs, yes, really easily. That's not 97 shtick, but the exciting thing is that, in that sort of goal of diversification of revenue, we can say, Okay, what are the hundred or $200 transactions or the thousand dollar transactions that 97 can own? So he can start, you know, getting that cadence? And so, yeah, I think it's, there's so much benefit in having a team and being able to play into strengths and know that like I'm when I'm not feeling good. Or I'm shithouse with a deadline that there's accountability is one.
And also, I think going, and I've started to do this with Melissa, who, for those of you who don't know, runs my life and is my business partner, and is way smarter than me, literally, like just gone. Hi, Mike, what do you think? What's your idea? Have you got an idea? Because, you know, he won't have as many great ideas at this point as YouTube, but he'll have ideas and some of them might be great and more will come as he's given more freedom. Like we were sitting Melissa and I finished a podcast two months ago, and she goes, I've got an idea. I go, go, she goes, let's do a you project conference. I go
how that work, and she goes,
I go. Great idea. So that went from her idea, not my idea. conversation. within six weeks we're promoting it and it's 670 seat room and the first night we have filled it like in the first night and that's not me just putting a bit of mayo on it. It's now about three quarters full fat man nowadays yeah and and it's but but all of that kind because I see myself generally as the creative one the ideas man and then a bit of con have gone without be a fuckin at you don't have a monopoly on that. Yeah. And I go What are your ideas because you got another one because that was a fucking Delta.
It's actually less stressful when you look at things like that.
And it's very arrogant to think that you two are the only ones that might have a good idea or I'm the only one that and then you open you give people permission. And whether or not it's a great idea or a terrible idea or in the middle, it's okay.
But we can also get hung up on that our ideas of the better ideas definitely, which they aren't
You are you are you are Open for ticket sales at all, or have you closed that off?
No, we're still gone. So,
but yeah, so
just go to Craig hopper.net go into events. So what it is, it's a whole day at. It's a whole day at Deakin University in Melbourne. And we've got 10 speakers and each speaker speaking for might be nine, nine or 10. Speaking for 40 minutes, I'm emceeing so I'm talking for whole bunch of five minute instalments as well as I'm going to present at the end of the day. And the whole dies hundred 47 bucks so that's pretty cheap paid shipping.
Yeah, I'm very wrong. He's going
yet paycheck it's going to be there and
speaking not just
you gotta get Paul Tyler on here your guys would you two would love him. Yeah, I know you have 97 you have some amazing guests. Chatfield. cetis Steph prim, who is Olympic snowboarder and entrepreneur and yoga guru. mccole who's got a really interesting, fascinating backstory at him?
Yeah. Who else can't remember, but a whole bunch. Yeah, Greg. I know.
What's his name? Sorry. Jake read from channel 10. Brad McEwen. Turn the money God Jason Cunningham, channel 10. should get Brad on here. He would come on here Brad McEwen. He's like, so he did 25 years of the sports guy and channel 10 now and he was always bit deep and philosophical. He used to try and it might join good human being. Just a fucking nice fella, storyteller, deep thinker. I'll give you his number.
Thank you. Okay, okay, good.
What day she's
February 23. Deakin University. That's right. Build that so that Sunday kicks off registration night 15 onwards. No eight o'clock. Hops fuckin takes the market. 945 batten down the hatches Hold on. It's going to be a wall rock. Should people bring like
a pen and paper? That's why actually that's one thing. 90 sevens gotten very good at. He has a book, he writes down everything he needs to do if I can work out, he's non negotiables. I want to go and steal that book and mess it up and srpt
to organise, to organise.
Should people bring a pen and
bring a pen and paper or a tablet or a phone or whatever you want to write in but some sandwich bring a sandwich is going to be open. Okay, good. So this is the cafe coffee.
Yes, before we go, can you so you were the guy who would normally have paper cups coffee like you would go to let's let's throw us under the bus just as we wind up now. I've been criticised Goldy guts actually is really slammed me because I said that the amount of Cape cups that I've lost, I'm better off now. Just having the throwaway cups because of the amount that I I get rid of But anyway, you have been known to be a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to the coffee cup thing, but you now have this beautiful purple ISIS
I call it move but
it's violet smoke a card and I did cop a little bit of shit because I had been known to use some
force destroying cups
across the wall I've had this for the best part of a year haven't lost it. Good. And it's funny because people now I'm on the kid cup and a few people have bought me cake cups for like birthdays and stuff now got 13 so if you need one
run of the
Yeah, the cake cup
is a French lady who works where I get my coffee and she goes, you put your kid cup.
You put your kid
I say here's market cup for you. So,
guys, is that
That is that's a large that's a large but let me tell you what if you if you're a 711 which tell me know if you get the 711 and you fill it up then you can't put this with a large so I just get the standard and it just
fits in perfectly
it's fucking life gets no better 711 coffees not even sponsored actually 711 2020
it's been good thank you much love you guys love your guts you little fucker Thank you my and thanks feel locker Bates super bad posture. Yeah, like a human question mark.
Here on top. How many episodes awake you doing in 2020?
We're doing three awake in 2020 we did last night number 149. Tomorrow I do number 150 with a friend of yours whose name starts with Jules Lund. who apparently doesn't do podcasts anymore but city yes to hop So thanks, Jules. Don't change your mind or look like
And so he's number 150. Right?
all things being equal the next year should be 300 ish. So but we certainly not the daily talk show
pace. But you know doing a PhD Yeah.
And also you don't do sevens we do. From a range point of view. We
do get magic on sevens, the seven out of 10 Yeah, he was he was very generous when he said sometimes. Sometimes you got seven. Yeah,
I've done record too many nines. Generally. Do you listen to this or you wouldn't have time and sometimes I listen to myself
even 97 knows that when he's around me. He has the audio quite low when he's playing back snippets. Because that just makes me cringe. Anyway. Happy 2020 everyone will say tomorrow. Thank you, Craig. capa
love you got love you got the new year everybody gonna be amazing. No pressure you fuckers. Say guys. See ya