Reading body language

Mason: It's the Daily Talk Show, Episode 44.

Josh: Tommy, Jack, yeah, yeah, yeah, boy.

Tommy: Ah, it's nice sometimes just to fall, like, lie back into a chair. Yeah, and just do a big breath.

Josh: I do anxious breathing. Bree knows when I'm stressed because I'll do a half yawn.

Tommy: I, I think I almost feel like I have these moments where I'm shocked into the fact that I haven't been been sucking enough oxygen into me. Yeah, I feel like I've been short, doing really shallow short breaths.

Josh: Well, you even do it, right? Like, I always say, what are you worried about? Because you'll go, fuck off, you piss.

Tommy: You're analysing me too hard.

Josh: Yeah, I do love, um, I do love reading people's body language and shit. I'm, I know I'm no smart fucker or anything, but it's fun seeing, fun seeing if people have read like How to Win Friends and Influence People and stuff.

Tommy: I was, um, doing an interview with Craig Harper.

Josh: Yeah, coach and— yeah, motivation, one of the first PTs ever in Australia.

Tommy: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Um, but we're sitting together on a couch. Look at me right now, look at my body position. Oh, you literally mirrored you and I didn't even mean that. And my point of saying this with Craig is I was mirroring him. We were sitting just in complete opposite. Yeah, his knee out to the left, my knee out to the right, and just And it's, and it makes it comfortable. It opens up this connection.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But then I've also thought like challenging that, right? Cause there's a lot of natural that this stuff all happens really naturally without you trying to be a creep and connect through copying body language and doing NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, anchoring. It takes a lot of thinking, right? And, um, fuck, I lost my thought. What was I saying?

Josh: Um, NLP, all of these things.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. To Craig on the knee and fuck.

Josh: So, look, I'll pick it up.

Tommy: It was around the— Oh, and you know how they say closed-off body language is when you have your arms crossed? Sometimes I like to do it and smile. And so, it's like emitting the conflicting body language signs. So, crossed arms, closed off, legs over, and then a smile.

Josh: Well, there's all these other things, right? Like eyebrows, what your eyebrows are doing. Things like that. Yeah, there's a bunch, but I think that you can spend way too much time thinking about all of these things that you just can't have this genuine experience, like trying to be in a job interview and just like copying.

Mason: Like, I've spoken to friends who have said they've noticed it where it's like the person is trying to emulate whatever.

Josh: So, it's a fun game if you're doing interviews for people, like of people. And you just start doing some crazy movements and seeing if they match.

Tommy: Sort of read some body language book before they got in and they're fucking— that would piss me off. Just be normal. Just be normal.

Josh: That would be a good podcast.

Tommy: But even be normal is actually be weird, but unapologetically weird about it. Because if you're weird, I'll think you're a fucking kooky mofo. But I'll love it if you're just like into it.

Josh: What were you like job interviews?

Tommy: I didn't do any job interviews. I've done maybe one in my life, but I've had a lot of catch-ups with people in positions that will hire me.

Josh: I would always go outrageous. I don't know if that was like a good tactic.

Tommy: Like what?

Josh: Oh, like I would just— it was always like I'd always end up like having a story. Like it would be, um, like when I arrived somewhere, if something's happened, like I remember, um, going for the Envato job and I saw Byron Cook, my mate who I was working with at the time at the radio station.

Tommy: Is that Byron from the number one breakfast show in Melbourne?

Josh: Yeah, that's him. Oh, brother. Old Byron, he's on the billboards now. And he— I was on the tram going into the city and the radio station was in South Melbourne and I lived in Port Melbourne. He's like, mate, what are you doing? What are you doing here? And I had to like think, I'm like real quick and I just said, ah, I dropped Bree off, but she wasn't like, she worked in the city. I was like, and she wasn't feeling comfortable driving her car. So, I drove the car, dropped the car and now I'm going to go into work soon. But then I remember, I think I made that a whole storey within my interview and shit like that.

Tommy: And did it go down well, or was it just another flat episode of the Daily Talk Show? No, it was good.

Josh: I, um, that one was an interesting job interview because they're like, we want you to come back. I was going for the community manager role. This is when I was like wanting to shift away from doing just straight video stuff. They got me to come back for a second interview, and before I got there, they called me and they said, um, 'cause community manager role wasn't gonna be managing anyone, it was just gonna be like doing all the strategy stuff. And they're like, oh, Josh, we've realised it's gonna require a bunch more people management than we expected. You just don't have the experience in that.

Tommy: Finally, funny enough, you say that on the way here, I— You told them a storey about how you managed a bunch of people on the way to the interview. I'm joking.

Josh: It sort of went over my head. I was breathing while you were saying it.

Tommy: Anxious breathing?

Josh: A little bit of anxious breathing. No, that was great. Do more jokes.

Tommy: Thanks. Yeah, I will. Thanks.

Josh: The, um, no, I, um, oh no, I get what you're saying now. That's quite good. It took me a while, guys. The, no, they, um, so I said, uh, but they said, well, we'll get you to come in, interview you, and find a role that might be suited to you.

Tommy: That's nice.

Josh: And literally, like, that's the best fucking position to be in. It's like let's chat, work out what you want to do, and like create a role. And literally that's what happened. It was the best fucking job. Like, I was able to create it into something that I wanted, and then I just sort of grew out of it and realised that for me the next stage was going back out on my own.

Tommy: Um, I was speaking to a friend yesterday about, um, finding the right people to bring into your business.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: And he was just saying, it's like, if you want someone to be motivated and can work, who's someone who can work autonomously, it's like, those are the things you're looking for in the very early stages of the interview.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like, and that's, I hadn't just thought about that because it's like, of course you want someone motivated.

Josh: And how do you emulate it? How do you, because job interviews, I feel like, are shit at working that out.

Tommy: Um, you've been for a few more jobs than I have. Have you been like— I remember, here's an example, um, Fox FM for the street team. They got them to like make like some vision board in half an hour. And I was like, God, the job that you're actually like— I'm not taking away— I handed out icy cold cans of Coke, but it's like, it is just handing out cans of Coke and you probably tell, determine what kind of person they are just from a quick chat.

Josh: That's so funny.

Tommy: But that was— they tasked them out. So have you been tasked out, like, come up with something?

Josh: I'm trying to think. I, um, I think the, in the most interesting, uh, interview probably would have been Fox because, um, at the beginning when I was going for it, um, I got contacted by a recruiter via LinkedIn and they said there's a radio show that, um, wants a digital content producer. And I basically had told myself at the time that if it was anything with Hamish and Andy in it, or if it was like Austereo, if it was Fee-Fan Jules, then I would, um, consider it. And, um, yes, sure enough, it was Fee-Fan Jules. And, um, I was actually already friends with, uh, Fee's brother. I worked on a film with him years and years ago. Cam's an actor and a good friend of mine. And yeah, so that was interesting because it was like, I'm trying to describe the interview. It was like a suss out thing, like they, because you were spending so much time with talent. They were literally, it would, the whole interview was just them working out if they liked me. The weird thing is that in that job I had a couple of managers and With Fefe and Jules, it was like awesome. But then there was a whole digital team who also got 50% of my time, who had really no interaction with me beforehand. Yeah. So, there's this weird thing of sort of like being interviewed by some people and they really— you connect and all that sort of thing. And then you've got another team that you suddenly need to gel with. Yeah. And I sort of made the decision early on to prioritise the show. Overwriting shit celebrity gossip.

Mason: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Uh, articles.

Tommy: What do you think about making— I mean, I was gonna say, what do you think about making money on YouTube? Of course you fucking think it's awesome if you can do it. But that space of— it's like almost the ultimate for a creator. Like, I see that now as like, I'm con— like, I was thinking, who are the companies out there, the brands that have lots of money to spend, that will give me money to make cool content? It's like there's, there's few and far between. There is a big market out there for that if you are good enough at making content, but that's basically YouTube. It's like you make content that resonates with your audience and you get paid for it.

Josh: I think there's definitely, there's more and more companies that are wanting it. I think that, like, I'll tell you what my defined perfect lifestyle is at the moment. I've been thinking about it heaps. I want to minimise all the shit that I have. That's the first thing. Maybe this is from fucking spending time with the Minimalists, which can turn into a bit of a cult feeling at times where people get real fucking into it. And I feel like I, I vibe with them and I enjoy what they have to say. But it's like I want to get rid— like, so because I've been doing this for 10 years, I have a Rode microphone that I bought 7 years ago that's fucked. It's literally like in a box. Yeah, it's like what it's got, like the rubber stopper type things rather than the newer one that I have, which is sort of like all self-contained. But I've just got so much. I've got this 5D that I haven't used.

Tommy: So you want to get rid of stuff?

Josh: Yes, I want to get rid of stuff. That's the first thing. And then I want to actually say, what are the storeys that I want to tell? Like the longer, like, and think about it from an impact point of view. So, I did a little bit of this with, I started that One Story Up series, which I did a total of one episode.

Tommy: Well, it was One Story Up, so technically—

Josh: Exactly. I nailed it. It was the whole season and finale all in one, but with Christian Hull. And that was great. For me, that was about giving the positive message that he's this gay, flamboyant, fat dude. That is fucking loves himself and that is like happy and that is everything that you like that I'd want to be. Yeah, I just like the weird thing is that if I like, I can't come to grips with my own weight and all these things and here's someone who, and I speak to, and you know, the funny thing is my whole, my interview was like, so like, are you really happy? And he was like, this is the thing, like people, People want to project their own things around this, but like he was actually really genuinely liking what he was doing. I just thought he was an amazing fucking role model. And so, that was why I wanted to create that video. And I was really proud of that video because I think a lot of people saw it and they could see, "Oh, fucker, I lived in this small town too and I could do this and I don't have to fucking do all the traditional stuff." So for me, it's about doing that on a bigger scale. So I look at like the Louis Theroux of the world and things like that and say, what is the new version of this? What is the— as a filmmaker, how can I be making these documentaries and actually like really committing to it and putting out time? Because I think that you and I have spoken about a bunch of doco ideas, but it's always been secondary to making money.

Tommy: Well, yes, because we need to live, right? And so how do you do— and that's how do you do it?

Josh: So what it means is it's like the two— I believe they're two separate things, two separate goals that are clashing. There's one goal to make money now, and there's another goal to create meaningful things that are going to move you forward.. And so, for me at the moment, I'm very close to being at the state where I'm like, I don't need to— If you create a runway, because the thing is, I believe that if you do shit that you love and do shit that's adding value to people, money will come. The problem is it's fucking slow to hit your bank account because you're not going to see it.

Tommy: And rent is $600 a week.

Josh: Exactly. And so, the thing is, if only. 6:30, remember? So, the— you think about it. So, it's like you can never do anything that doesn't have a reward of, say, less than 3— more than 3 months away. You're always— like, if you think about it, we can do things that are small that adds to a bigger thing. But I've never felt that I've been able to actually say, I'm working on this thing. And I'm only focusing on this thing and it's not going to give me an actual reward for a few months. And so, that's the area that I'm interested in is it's like doing that. And because I think that that's the— that's something students get. But the thing is that when you have that, you don't necessarily have the life experience or the skills to do anything with it. Either have time or you have money. And the funny thing is that like if you're a student right now, if you're like living at home, that is the time where you can just fucking do these things.

Tommy: Yeah, it's nice perspective from an adult.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because I feel the same as like all that time I had, the safety net I had, the fucking— I could have put in more effort.

Josh: You can risk like— Yeah, because there's nothing to fucking lose.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But then the bigger the empire you build, If you suddenly start having a business that's actually doing quite well, how do you turn your back to that?

Tommy: But then it really diving into what it is that actually you want to achieve. And so for you, that is for me, you're talking about then how do you make that work?

Josh: So it's longer form stuff. So it's actually realising that, um, there's lots of things that we can do that can be these part-time things.

Mason: Right.

Josh: Probably 80% of the things that people want to be doing, they can just be doing right now as their side hustle and they'll do a great job of it. But I think that I'm now at this transitioning point, hashtag transitioning, where I say, actually, for me to be able to do this, I need to go all in, commit to it and make it. And the thing is that 3 months isn't a big fucking deal.

Tommy: Yeah. It's nothing.

Mason: No.

Tommy: And did you see Casey Neistat's latest video?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Where he's like talking about the biggest thing he's committing to of his life, which he can't announce until fucking April 1st or something. Is that what it was? April?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What's the date now? Yeah. Okay. So it's another couple of weeks away. That's annoying. Fucking good hook though. I'm interested.

Josh: But see, this is the thing, right? It's, uh, I think that I've got that lean mentality, which is like fucking, iterate smaller things, but I think that bigger, riskier investments can have bigger rewards.

Tommy: Yeah, they definitely do.

Josh: I think that for the most, most people, they're not there yet because what happens is, say if, say if you've got $1,000 of free money that you can use to invest, right? I think some people have the mentality that they're like, to make any real impact, I need to have $100,000, so I'm going to do nothing with my $1,000. And that's like, consider that with time, connect that with time. It's like, I've only got like a few hours a day, so I can't do anything. Whereas like, what I think I can do is it's like, no, I can actually, like, I've given it enough goes at investing at this $100,000 mark that I can actually now invest and say, I'm going to fucking put all my eggs into this just for 3 months.

Tommy: So what's it going to be for you? Because I feel like this, it's so easy and we both do it. It's like, yeah, you talk about these things, talk about the process of going, it's just the committing bit. It's like, but then it's, you know, to actually stop, do it and tell people that you've got this huge thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Internally actually feel it though, right? Because that's, that's where all, when it will actually work.

Josh: I mean, what do you notice it from the outside when you see me? Are you seeing any change? Because I feel like there is.

Tommy: I feel like you're on the precipice of a change and whatever that, and that's the thing, right?

Josh: So I think that for these things to happen, it's that whole thing of what is it like, fucking being crazy is, you know, um, or the definition of being crazy is like doing the same, doing the same thing, expecting different results. And it's this thing where it's like, I'm actually— Bree and I are both putting in place these things which will radically change our life no matter what. Like, we are, we are going away, definitely going away. We've got the date. We know that we're not going to have our apartment, all of these things, right?

Mason: And so Um, you know, Bree.

Josh: And so it puts us in this position where we're not— I feel like we tie ourselves to all of these things, whereas like you remove them all, then what?

Tommy: This is the thing, right? It's like the conversations you were having, there will become— there's a come a time where you're cutting the rope and you're falling away from the current life that you're in and changing it up rapidly. This is why YouTube channels that are of people that go and quit life and go and live in a caravan and drive down the coast of California are so popular. It's because I watch those and I feel like, fuck, if only for me. Amy and I walked past yesterday in St. Kilda a couple of backpackers, just this, you know, they look like a Swedish couple. They had the boot of their caravan open, a glass of wine, like a little, you cooktop going, and we were just like, fuck, let's— I'd love to just go with Bodhi. Yeah. And us and just drive around Australia or go overseas and do this.

Josh: And the thing is, this is that $1,000 or $100,000 mentality, right? Where it's like you think about what they're doing and you bring it to the essence. What's stopping you from getting in the car, going to St. Kilda Beach getting the fucking little barbecue or packing a cheap picnic and do it and doing that now. And that's what I feel like once you've actually, and this is what's happening with Bri and I, once you've made the decision that we're fucking doing this, all of a sudden when you're like, we know that we're going to be investing hugely in 3 months' time, your ability to make these smaller investments, if you've, if If you've worked at businesses where you're writing million-dollar checks, you're not gonna wince at writing a $100,000 check. If you're always counting your dollars or your cents, writing a cheque for $100,000 is gonna be a big deal. So it's about, fuck, there's this, I need to remember the phrase, but there's basically that phrase of like, that brain elasticity, like our ability to like stretch.

Tommy: It's called neuroplasticity.

Josh: Yeah, neuroplasticity. But it's like this hyperbolic something, which talks about how we adapt. Maybe it's like hyperbolic adaptation or something, but it's essentially, I want to fucking look it up.

Mason: It's essentially the, as we, it's like that thing of like you start flying first class or you start living a certain life and then all of a sudden all these expectations change around you and say, Hang on, I used to be fine. Like, I used to just be excited about doing X, Y, and Z. It was like you talking about you having a beer in Santorini or whatever with a sunset. All of a sudden, will the sunset from Santorini without a beer be as enjoyable?

Tommy: I don't know.

Mason: And so, that's what—

Tommy: It'd be nice. Yeah, it'd be fucking lovely. It'd be better than the sunset in St. Kilda. Where I live, because the sunset in Santorini goes down over the water. So, you actually just are seeing the sun disappear behind water, which is like not everywhere in the world has that.

Josh: Where does that though, you're saying?

Tommy: In Santorini, you can see it going down. And it doesn't happen in Gibraltar? At some spots you see it going— No, because you're in the bay. And then, in Sydney, the sun comes up from the other side. Maybe Perth. You could say it, but it's like, that's a magical thing. No, it doesn't sound— yeah, it sounds a bit weird. But anyway, I think for you, I, I see it as like there is a time where it is— maybe it is the trip for you that's that big severing moment from your current life. But I also— you and I have literally been fucking trying to navigate the thing that we are then going to commit to wholeheartedly, or, you know, go all in on. And as much as we talk about doing our businesses, you start floating through and taking work, but then it's like, at what point is like, got it? Yeah, it took me fucking 2 years of feeling uncomfortable making money, but just having all these headaches to go, no, I've crafted it, and now I've— now I truly know what it is. And it came with all the pain before.

Josh: And it's also, you're, um, talking about that adaptation being able to adapt. When I started my business, the first month it was like, I just need to make $5,500 this month. That's what I told myself. And so when you start talking that game, then that's obviously, that's just a thing that you need right now, but it's bet, it's a, it's a small bet. You're playing a smaller game. But like when you start to shift, you know, that What did you talk about the last episode? What was the, um, the self-fulfilling prophecy? Yeah, if all of a sudden you start talking about bigger projects and making that a thing, that's what I'm finding fucking fascinating. Just saying, just talking about projects and saying this is like the minimum that we're gonna enter into, it's so powerful. All of a sudden you only start hearing from fuckers who have that money, and if they don't, they go somewhere else.

Tommy: I've literally had so many of these over the last 2 weeks where I've noticed myself talking differently. It's like I've pulled myself out of a certain area of my business and now assumed a position that will make it grow in another— in this way that I want it to, right? And so I feel like I'm even talking— and that's why it's nice having a mate like you that I talk to about this shit and verbalise it.

Josh: Yeah, because—

Tommy: and Amy, who I talk to about everything, it's like, fuck it, you really a shaping and joining the dots when you verbalise something to somebody and writing it down.

Josh: And you can also see your value. It's also that value thing, right? It's been like, actually, like, this is an unreasonable— like when you just talk it out and say, okay, well, this is, you know, the one of the biggest suggestions I have for anyone who has a client-facing, like, as a business that's a service business. Yeah. Is, um, The first question, I heard this, um, Sherpa Studio Sherpas, they had like a fucking, um, content, like an ad that was, uh, that I watched. They're guys selling the video production studio dream, but they have something which I've been doing for a while and it just popped up in my feed and it was interesting because it articulated something that I'd been doing that I didn't even really realize. First question they ask clients is 'What's your budget?' Yeah, I've been doing a lot more of that. And if you don't ask what's— if they don't answer that, say, 'What's your budget range?' Great.

Tommy: And then what?

Josh: And then it's like, go fuck yourself. Because the thing is that, like, the thing is that clients— like, we have spent so much— like, I have spent so much of my life guessing what's, what's a fair amount. And there's been times where I've gone to be like, I think $2,000 is all they're going to do, and they've come back and said, we've got $12,000 to spend. Genius. If you didn't fucking ask the question, you would judge it.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. So asking that, because it's not fucking rude, it's not— it's setting expectations. It's like, we can make a video for you that's $1,000 in cost. We can make something that costs $500,000.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: So what we need to understand is Understanding your budget and then aligning that with what we can produce for you.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. And it 100% is around the type of client because you find— I think you would have found this consistency in small businesses. They're a bit more— they don't want to spend much. So the spend— I don't want to spend much is I don't really have a budget because I'm fucking going out of my way to make this happen. Whereas big businesses, yeah. The $12,000 job that you thought was $2,000. It's like, clearly they've just defined their marketing spend.

Josh: Well, I think the other thing too is it's a— it's— I don't think it's actually got anything to do with size of business and everything to do with value, right? So I'll give you an example. If they're doing— if the reason I love playing in the recruitment video space, employer brand videos, culture videos, is because you just have to do a basic equation, which is like, how much does it cost to recruit one person? If, if a recruiter is charging whatever percent it is for, like, they could be making $15,000, $20,000 off hiring an executive for a company.

Tommy: Yeah, right, they charge.

Josh: And so then all you got to do is the math and say, okay, we'll create a story, we're going to spend a week creating a storey for your business, which is going to be able to be used for the next 12 to 18 months to promote on every single job you have. How many roles are you hiring for this year? 20 roles? Okay, if you were to pay, say, $10,000 per fucking recruitment, that's $200,000. How about this? How about you spend $15,000 with us and we'll create an employer brand video. And for some it might be like, you know what, they're hiring a workforce of 400 people, then they're going to be— obviously that's where bigger business, that becomes a factor. It's like you're playing with different values, but the consideration is it's like you need to connect— where I think it gets lost is when someone's like, I know that I need to do it. People are telling me I need to do it, so I want to do it. And that's not enough of a— you haven't connected in the value. They're never going to have that. Only they're only going to ever say, I've got a couple of grand to spend because like they're just throwing it out there for a hope. But when someone can do the math and say, actually, if I do this job, that's going to connect to these sales.

Tommy: Yeah. And you know, maybe what it is also, small businesses don't know their true value.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so even in themselves not making enough money, they're sort of in this new space. And so how can they place value on something that's more expensive than what their stock costs to fill their store for a week?

Josh: And that's the thing, when you're talking about businesses that have small margins, then they might not have the money to be able to do it. But, um, no, I think that always thinking— and we talk about value, I'm sure we've spoken about it on a previous episode It all comes down to tying it into value and saying, okay, well, what's the— you having this piece of content, what is it actually worth to you? And so for one client, it's like who's in sort of the medical profession, he will have— he only gets paid when he's in a surgery, when he's doing surgery, and he'll get— he'll have 40 conversations a week of people asking questions about the surgery. He can spend a bunch of cash because he knows that if he can save having to take that 40 conversations and bring it down to 10, yeah, and 30 people are getting the answers through his video content, he's scaling his, his fucking energy. Yeah, in a huge way. Know your value.

Tommy: Yeah, it's good.

Josh: I mean, what's the, um, where are you going with everything? What's your, uh, I mean, we've definitely— I feel like I've sort of spoken a lot about my path because I think that I am very, you know, you're experiencing it, you're seeing it. I'm fucking close to this. I'm at the point they talk about, the point of, say, the cliffs and water, right? It's actually more living things. So like plants and shit like that. When the ocean meets the land, it's because there's all the— you've got these two fucking environments connecting. And so that's what happens with us when we've got this friction, we've got these two worlds colliding. All of a sudden these new things grow. That's why having different networks, different people bringing them together, getting someone who's from overseas and bringing them to another place and all of those things, you end up fucking growing other things out of them. And that's where I feel like I'm at at the moment. I'm just all this friction sort of—

Tommy: You jump, you gotta jump off the cliff into the water.

Josh: Exactly. And the water is going to be fucking turquoise and it's going to fucking feel amazing.

Tommy: Are you in Italy? Because that sounds like Italy.

Josh: It's got that vibe, absolutely. And I've just had a whole— the thing is, I'll be jumping in it, but I'm going to feel fucking real blobby because I'm going to have just had like a whole fucking margherita pizza on my own.

Tommy: Fuck, I just felt like a big carb ball when I was in Italy.

Mason: Carb ball.

Tommy: Well, because you can't like, you know, here we're so fortunate that we can escape the fatty food and get like a nice salad from somewhere.

Josh: I was like, but if you want to—

Tommy: yeah, if you want to. But in Italy, it's pizzas and pastas and arancini balls.

Josh: Arancini balls?

Tommy: Is that arancini? Risottos, club sandwiches.

Josh: You're describing everything that's at the Virgin Lounge. They're all fucking carb— you know, I had scones yesterday. With fucking cream and jam.

Tommy: Mate, I was talking to my mate yesterday about the, um, food pyramid and how fucked it is, or how much it's changed since '82, I think, when it came out to 2018. It's like they have legitimately removed bread from the bottom. Bread was in the bottom. Yeah, like came up into the middle, and then they've totally removed bread, and it now just seems like dairy and stuff. Yeah, dairy's still in there. It says grains. I might have it on here. It says, great. Yeah, I do. It says, um, so I'm just showing Josh right now.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: This is the old food pyramid. Uh, hang on. Here's the food pyramid for 1982. The very top was sugar.

Mason: So the smallest one, the smallest part of the pyramid is the shit that you should have the least of.

Tommy: Yes. Which is the top, top third.

Mason: Yeah. So you got the sugar. So it goes sort of going top to bottom, sugar, Butter, margarine, oil, oil, reduced fat spreads, and then into your more lean meat, nuts, lean meat, fish, and then milk, eggs, and cheese. And then stuff that you should eat most is like vegetables, dried, dried peas, dried peas, lentils, fruits, bread, cereals.

Tommy: So that's 82.

Mason: Cereals is fucking high on that.

Tommy: That's 82. Now this is it. Healthy eating pyramid. Healthy fats is at the top. They've taken sugar out of the pyramid off to the left.

Mason: I'm fucking confused. Why is— They're saying that you should have healthy fats the least.

Tommy: Yes. This is why I don't think that's right. So, this is— This is— Mate, they've totally gone against bread, which is out of the bottom. The bottom is literally just lentils and all vegetables and some fruits.

Mason: Oh, so they've literally taken out, yeah. Salt, sugar, like, because they're like, you don't actually need that to survive, so we're going to take it out. So then the very top is still good for you technically.

Josh: Yeah, that's interesting.

Tommy: It's, it's interesting about, um, the how science— I mean, is just studies into something that can potentially be proven wrong at some point, right?

Mason: That's why all this fucking shit's so hard.

Tommy: What, like self-help?

Josh: Well, just trying to work out what to fucking do because like coconut oil, there was that whole thing that came out where it's like coconut oil is actually bad for you.

Tommy: And also they, you know how like egg white omelettes were very big at one point? They've come out now saying it's useless. It's actually useless having the egg whites.

Josh: The only thing egg whites are good for is fucking meringues.

Tommy: Do you get into the meringue mix before you put it in the oven?

Mason: No. Have you ever done that?

Tommy: Have you ever? Got egg whites, beat them, put sugar into it, and then just eaten that? Yes.

Josh: No, I've just— no, I've always just gone straight in to the, uh, meringue.

Tommy: Anyway, guys, it's been going 35 minutes.

Josh: 35 minutes. I've got to fucking go.

Tommy: All right, 44, done.

Josh: Daily Talk Show, everyone. Remember, our email address is hi@thedailytalkshow.com, and we do accept any snail mail, which is PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067. And if you have a chance, why don't you leave us a review on iTunes or through the podcast app on the iPhone, iPad, all those iOS devices.

Tommy: Love you.

Mason: Bye.