#727 – Michelle Andrews & Zara McDonald On Anxiety & Perception/
- May 12, 2020
Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald from Shameless Podcast are back!
We chat about Michelle’s new pup, Mich and Zara’s upcoming book, growing outside your arena, mentors, isolation and anxiety, when busyness serves you, a Shameless dating update from Mr. 97 and what we’re currently consuming.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– A Shameless dating update
– Michelle’s new pup, Benji
– Children and parenting
– Writing the book
– Podcast perception
– Growing outside your frequency and mentors
– Isolation and anxiety
– Busyness, being hypercritical and managing mental health
– Consumption and over hype
Michelle Andrews: https://www.instagram.com/michelleandrews1/
Zara McDonald: https://www.instagram.com/zamcdonald/
Shameless Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/shamelesspodcast/
Email us: firstname.lastname@example.org
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 727. Back on the show Michelle Andrews. Donald's Welcome. Hello. Sorry, boys. So many episodes. How are we hanging in? You know, so I see visually, Michelle, I did I say you're giving away a bed, because I'm pretty sure I can see some kind of a bed. We're giving away a bit on Facebook. I wasn't giving away a bed. I was recommending a bed because this week you also gave one away on Facebook yesterday. Yeah, you know, Facebook marketplace where he literally just talking about like, buy swap sounds is what's going on? No, I was the world's worst.
I really did forget that. Um, I was free. To be honest. I just got you on to ask, can I have you you bedframe that you will give you why
Oh, so we really like it. I mean, we were going to take it to the tip because we were like I don't know if we want to ask for money for this I feel bad. I don't know if this is just me. I felt bad asking for money for things that I'm not going to use anyway and I don't need like I'm gonna give it away like when we moved out of our apartment in Jatin Oh, fib we gave away everything. We didn't want money for the couch or for the fridge or for anything. I just feel awkward asking for money when I don't need it. And I don't need the thing. I just want it to be gone. That's just me. No, I agree. no benefit to you if it's gone. So isn't the value in getting it gone rather than the money? Yeah, totally. It's like I don't need this bed frame. I don't want money for it. I just want it to be out of my life and out of the spare bedroom. You can clearly see it in the background. Well, I say the appeal of getting it going quicker. So free is the better option, which you can there's so many things but it looks like nobody even wanted it for free. So I'm a bit suspicious that bed prime anyways. hot bed frame.
Yeah look it is pretty dodgy I'm like keen to get rid of it I'm pretty sure we're gonna put it on air Tasker so not just giving it away for free we pay someone to get rid
of the whole the tip thing but then you have the opposite stuff which is all the gronk that leaves stuff outside the salvos I just shocking shifts like why with all that yeah and at the moment like we've got a um, a salvos up the road from us and they've got all these signs around the place saying we're not accepting donations like clearly people aren't working there right now. The number of people dropping off garbage bags, who definitely like giving themselves a pat on the back. I'm like you're making more work for so many people. So like we would take it to a charity shop of charity shops and still open but they're not really so I was thinking I
was thinking yesterday about dropping stuff off because I did a T shirt call yesterday and I need to go and drop some off into one of the bins. I don't even know if we can at the moment but I was thinking Have you girls ever said have you ever dropped something off and ever seen somebody with
That you've dropped off like I want to know that person that seems someone wearing their t shirt that is you know like
you and sort of unlock
what like say walking down the street saying someone in my pink data
the closest thing will be and it won't happen to you girls your merchandise. I'm sure someone will see someone who's giving away our merchandise. Because
we do sometimes see girls wearing a women sorry saying the way the shameless match around Woollies and calls in my area and I feel bad for them because it's almost like they feel embarrassed to wear it. Like no i love it like I feel embarrassed that people yeah it's cute though I love saying that but the other side to that is actually the concern that they don't know what they're wearing like they've been given it or they've borrowed it from someone and like they don't know what they're wearing. So I would just kind of ignore the situation just for feeling awkward. Yeah, the I mean the admin stuff of selling shit. Zahra, how you with admin during ISI
Bad bad. I'm bad at admin generally. So I says no good for anything. What kind of bad demons just like just general getting your life together. Like, I feel like I've got this long list like I've gotten to the point of putting together the list of the things I'm going to do. But I reckon I'm gonna run out of time before we all have to sort of get back to business as usual. I don't think I've done one good thing for my life since isolation started in terms of admin, like I don't think I've done anything. I was brushing my teeth today, and I thought I really it's time to go to the dentist. Because you can go in the next couple of months. No, absolutely not. I thought that was like the first time you'd brushed your teeth in a while.
I'm actually big teeth brush or I don't mind the tape. How many times Yeah, it makes it Whoo. Now actually interesting. Now that I'm working from home I find myself doing it every couple of hours because it gives me a little reboot. Yeah.
That would be bad for you. Gently he just went deadly.
Do you don't manually or do you have like an electric electronic setup? Just Just
the soft, soft toothbrush it is the softest kind. I just give it a little spur. I just want a little like refresher. No, I mean it's if you feeling like a bit dehydrated or something you can sort of give you a mouth that today just have a glass of water. Have you know, breath mints you've heard of like Eclipse me? Yeah, yeah. The same thing. We sibs let's let's bring it bring in sip. So the first time you've got a water floss machine how often you're using that looks like a law Look, I probably I pretty. I probably haven't used it in maybe three months.
I haven't actually I mean, I've lost more than I've used the actual Water Flosser. But it is great. Like it's, I would recommend it. What can you really recommend something if you're not using it?
Maybe it's crying but it's really it's fun to use. That's That's the best part about like, just the water. It's real high pressure. It's grant.
Money. We need to address the elephant in the room. Zahra and Michelle not know not you. You're not
liable after that. I mean, Mr. 97
he's confidence his newfound confidence is the elephant and it's as big as a bloody elephant. Look at the smile. The hair cat look at the Pepin Easter if he can't see him walking but you should say it's very peppy. A bit of swagger. Yeah, girls. Do you know that he now has a girlfriend? Can you girlfriend this to me 90 said
I mean, I feel like we were responsible for like the first couple of people you ever dated? What happened since then? This is Yeah, this is 100% because of you. One One of one of our one of our listeners. She She found us through the shameless dieting thing.
And we we started messaging and talking and then yeah now a daddy and she's only been dating for
I would be just over a month I reckon. 30 days yeah 31 day we need to do like a daily talk show and shameless like event and you can just be sitting on throne, middle of the stage. Like not speaking or anything just there is like out props because we brought you guys together
for us mesh in terms of that's
over a year
to a date 96 and look at us. And it wasn't you it was all him. He was the problem.
It could have been much quicker. He had a lot of options thanks to
the ISO So, sibs has never met his girlfriend in real life. She is based in Perth. And so this is this
is like the the modern day love if I've ever heard
you know when tomato what's gonna happen?
Yeah, yeah wait was soon as everything sort of come calms down and the restrictions are lifted Yeah, absolutely we I mean we want to try that over and over i'd trip Oh we'll see what happens
in relationship anyway because no one can kind of catch up. Yeah so you might as well just for one intersect. I hate to farm with you 90 sibs, but a couple of weeks ago we literally did a coal lap for our loved etc podcast the final episode we did which went up on Friday was about pandemic love and we want to love stories from the pandemic. I am personally a
lovely girlfriend did not reach out considering we set you up. Well to be a
talk show exclusive on it.
Mom stories on the daily talk show. Here we go.
Exclusive banner which will
run the banner. Why don't we get stuff this cool Michelle it's
the dumb shit we just we just don't want to bring the crowds you know you need you need
gimmicks so Zahra, you're not an admin gal. No, not. Michelle. You've been thrown a whole bunch of new admin based on having a dog a pet. Buying a buying a child. How is how is the little pup he is so good. We had a really scary incident on Saturday before I tell you about it. He's the best like he's such an adorable puppy. He's self affectionate and like maybe which is just me in a nutshell so it's perfect. And
he's been so great to have in the midst of everything because he keeps us so busy and now hands full basically all the time with him. But on Saturday, I got him up in the morning he wakes up at like 630 in the morning, which
is also a new new thing for me. And he was doing zoomies around the apartment and I had the door halfway open to outside to a little courtyard area. Just because I've put him out or whatever he's doing zoomies and instead of running zoom calls for dogs What's azumi? Is her dog.
Okay, really is fine. You know what when I tell you I don't know have you not had dogs as pets? I have a cocker spaniel that I wish I looked after more it was when I was young but gone. All right. So when a
particularly young dogs and they have too much energy, they do zoomies, so they don't know how to expend energy. So this is normally when they wake up when they go to sleep at night. They just start sprinting laps around your house or around your garden or whatever, like sprinting for no reason just in circles, trying to get rid of excess energy. And so Benji was doing azumi where he's going full pelt around the backyard. And when he circled round come back into the apartment through the open door. He missed the open door
Went smack bang into the gloss. Also, he gave himself a concussion. It sounds like he now should look like for a dog. Like is he scary? Yeah, really
he was like, very opposite, like crying. This is no funny when you see
an eight week old puppy dressing. Um, he was very upset. So he was kind of like sleeping the entire night so we had to call the emergency vet.
And yet he's okay. Now he was very, very sore and like, feeling pretty sorry for himself all of Saturday in a bit of Sunday, but he's okay. Now. Maybe I should go get him for one of these shots so you can see him? Yeah, definitely. That would be good. I just want to quickly can you give me five things that he's done that he's really really annoying. And I don't want you to use the term dog and I want to have people think that they could be talking about my son Bodie, because I reckon they're probably pretty close. I don't know if I've got five feet because he's a dog. So he's one
range isn't that high.
weighing on our bedroom floor at none is a big deal. But yeah, he's done that by
hiding under the very back of the couch. So underneath the couch but against the back wall, so to the point where we can't lean in and scoop him out like he's to davion he just hides under that. I don't think it would fit under you. Okay, well, he's Whoa, what are you saying about od
these fat, no one stuck underneath something. I had to like, yank him and he got stuck behind these caught I walked in and it was lodged down there and
he's figured out he's figured out what he's traits are. They're in like a little wicker basket where we keep all of his stuff and so he um, he climbs up on the traits basket and tries to pull it over. This is a staple, right? I caught in the cupboard with a chair, getting down the chocolate and he began easter eggs is exactly the site. It's not it's beautiful stuff.
Zahra, you mean, you've never been a dog person is that I know that you sort of like your um, which I think is fine. I think that like I I'm just I remember when I told people I'm like, I don't love dogs. You stop saying it in public because people really like, take it as a judgement call that you're a psychopath or something. But
what's your relationship with, with dogs nowadays?
Not not much change. If I didn't have to get it off my whole life. I don't think I would. My brother, my younger brother has never had a pet in his life. So he realised that I'm at an age now where I could get a dog and he sends me dog photos all day, every day thinking that I'm going to be the one to get a dog and that he can just take it and my boyfriend really wants a dog and thinks we're getting a dog before Christmas. I'm I'm just not sure. Like, I'm happy to indulge and say, Sure, let's get this dog. But then I think about the reality of having a dog the 630 way cups, the training it, it being around all the time, having to look after it and I just
I'm not gonna lie Zahra. I don't think you'd want a dog. I think you'd get one I do. adore dogs. I absolutely adore them. A puppy is so much work. Like I think people really underestimate it's probably why so many puppies get returned after Christmas and like why there's all those awareness campaigns. They are so intense in the first couple of weeks that if you are not like if you don't fully want that dog with all your heart, you're gonna fucking hate it. Yeah.
to hire someone to train it, not not definitely not this is the whole thing. It's like my theory on the dog stuff is like you get a dog when you've sort of, you've got enough time that you want to feed something else and like deal with something else. But like the idea of then outsourcing it seems Nasara you need
You need to adopt a dog who's like maybe two years old and is already trying Yeah, I don't the audit actually added as a non dog lover as a non dog lover. You don't have it in you to do the first year.
month because it's it's hard and we're home all the time. I can't imagine right raising Benji and being at work eight hours a day. I don't know how it'd be possible. He destroyed the house. Yeah. Aren't you guys have dogs Josh and Tommy.
TJ us? Well, we opted for the child over the dog.
Classic a human not had dogs growing up but though it's you can't tell you can't genuinely say you had a dog. Oh, you did have one but you can't it's not like your experience right show you. My dad did all the hard work. He took it for walks. I just got to chill. Chill with him for 17 years in the backyard. And so I got the best bit of it. But no, I wouldn't the future my mom classic story. We have a Dalmatian. And the mom got it when I was born, I think yeah. Yeah, almost the same time. What a nightmare. three boys. A baby. Bang may mom left the front door open hoping it would just go she got to that point.
She got to that point now and she and you're on a
on a Down to Earth Yogi meditator that she'd had enough, you know for everybody Brian broke in the dog Braga. Well, okay, but my sister, my sister tried to raise a husky when she was heavily pregnant. And that was interesting to watch as well. It's not easy. Yeah, I just feel like things like travel and stuff. I think it's the extra cost in like, like I remember driving past like, somewhere in Port Melbourne and he like the dogs barking. We're like everyone's hanging like the dogs are hanging out waiting for their owners. And I'm just like daycare. Yeah, South Melbourne. Yeah, it just doesn't. doesn't feel right. Well, I mean, it begs the question, I guess no, I was thinking in hindsight after having a child how it's already been selfish because I don't think you just living your life right without that part of the responsibility or that taking up your
Your time What do you for the non non dog or parent owners? I can't remember thinking in that time no one probably asked me back then. Like all the time that you have is that is is it a Is there a Can you even get to the selfishness thinking in that time like not selfishness like me it's more for your sit like it's about all the thing of like okay if you if you don't have if you don't want to have kids, you're somehow like a selfish asshole where it's like well they all I'm saying I'm not saying it's it's what you are but but there is that narrative. But then isn't that also the narrative that allows a bunch of people who don't want to have kids or dogs to have kids? Kids and don't be a Why do you want kids Josh? Nah, not brain I brain I decided pretty early like we started
dating when we were like 1617. And so when we spoke about it, then we're like it's interesting.
Yeah, because it's changed this entire time. No, no. And so it's commendable. I
actually my brother doesn't want kids. But you're the You're my first friend that has said that. And it's and I think probably when I first met you was like, you know, you go through all those come on might you know it might happen
if I remember when you said Micah, you're too selfish to have a kid.
When people do you get annoyed when people insinuate that you don't know for yourself yet and that you're going to change your mind. Yeah, I mean, I think that but also being the pushback guy. I feel like anyone telling me to do anything like it's like Brian, I, I've got I'm not opposed to marriage at all. I want to get married to break just so we have that like, not even for the wedding. I can't be fucked with people and working out like I did my first photo board for
Brady's 30th 30th birthday today and I was like,
Yeah, she's a youthful looking Angel. I know. It's outrageous, though. But yeah, so she's 30.
And so I made the photo board. And I was like, This reminds me of weddings, because all of a sudden, I took a photo for Instagram. I was like, Ah, fuck, I didn't consider at all who were in the photos. I just picked just good photos. And so I liked the idea of marriage in regards to like, being connected, but the raw raw of the whole thing I'm not for and so I think from a pushback perspective, when people say, Oh, you need to do this, or you need to do that. Even if I had the thought in my head. I'm normally like, okay, reset. Like, I need to push them like I'm moving this around because I don't want to fucking do anything. That's society's telling me not empowering. Is it like that's such an A way to look at it, man. I'm not the rah rah. I think I want the rah rah. You like it.
Give the rah rah, I just want a big party. Like that's all I want. And I like excuse me, like, you don't give a fuck you just No, no, the person is important. But also it's always the party like having people. I think I think this is why I've always liked birthdays, right? Not because I like attention. I kind of gotta get embarrassed if I'm at the centre of it. But the idea that people can't really say no to you, like if you want to get people together and you're an extrovert people can't really say no, they're busy especially. So you can't plan out you can't like wedding so therefore you've got forcing everyone into the same space.
It sounds horrendous and I I don't really care for like a huge wedding. But I definitely want a wedding. Like it's not the most important thing for me, like I think a lot more about married than I do about one day of my life. But I don't know just being able to like look nice and be around my family and friends like that and do that on a Sunday. You know that.
Like how often do you get everyone you love in one room and like I'd be
Certain that both of mine and Mitch has families, they wouldn't have that whole like, every second cousin has to be there or anything like that. Like we'd have no pressure on ourselves as far as guest lists go. How often would you have everyone you love between you as a couple in one room? You would never have that I actually don't think there's really any other occasion where everyone comes because it's a wedding. Everything else birthday parties, people can flake. It is special and but it is hard hard work like on the day it's I enjoy going to a party more than I enjoy hosting throwing it. Oh yeah, that's it. I love you on the other kids parties with my son. We had one absolute nightmare. There was so many children it's it's a kid you
know i mean that's that's that's his that's reliable for me at the moment. So that's all the pies I've been going to the last one a lot. But no, I think it's
it does like bringing family together. It is Hey, I'm just reminded me on the
So my wife's from Sydney or all the family are up there. And you're right when would they ever fly down to Melbourne just to hang out with us all on the same weekend it would never happen unless it's you know, got something to do with a wedding or a divorce.
No, but I'm he was pregnant at our wedding, which was we don't recommend, absolutely don't recommend a pregnancy. We're talking 12 weeks so we're talking nine months, six, six weeks, and
six and sick. It was getting so annoying for her.
We had started telling people which is probably not the best idea. Telling people early and thankfully it all went went our way.
But Amy's Auntie was on the plane and she heard to be heard the people sitting behind her talking about how they go into the wedding and Amy, the bride is pregnant. And Amy zante found out from sitting on the plane hearing a call centre
binder that time he was pregnant. Chances are I know she's not showing very much. How was it not abundant? That she was pregnant at six months? Well, six weeks.
Little little pay not six months. Six months. I'm like, Wow, really friggin small when she was six months pregnant. It was just a little little pain in the tummy but she was Yeah, sick so
Josh is muted himself.
He'll come back
while Josh is muted, I love your bookshelf. Oh, bookcases. Oh, yeah, very colourful, very artistic or shakalaka. Well, it's colour coded but you know what's not meticulous? It looks like they were kind of just like that. It's not it's not to try hard. Like it's not like I've crafted this bookshelf for the purpose of it being in my background, although I feel the need to compliment your bookshelf. Now. Tell me and what's behind you because you just got a couple of
wardrobes. I will bring it to you. That's a wallpaper behind Josh. The wallpaper. It's a green screen.
pull out a book Josh. I want to say. Not stoked. Yeah, he was about to ask do you think that was a brave job or a Josh job and I was about to back bright wallpaper that I know it's not a wallpaper. I'm gonna say it real books. And he does have a
I was gonna say problem. But I guess if you've reading them in Yeah, you being educated, it's far from a problem buying books. He read them all, or does he accumulate them to look like he's well read?
I mean, I'd love to answer for it. It's a great question. Oh, he's nodding. He's nodding. I think he's accumulating them to make him
back. This was like, This is the biggest technical clusterfuck that we've had so far. I think something happened. We must be the bad the bad omen. You're fine. I think it's all good. YouTube's still working. No. So no, I don't read the books to answer your question.
have time for no i. I like the idea of books I love like, I enjoy the aesthetic of books. Even love talking about that. I'm going to read the book. I like to have the fireplace on on the TV, put it on put some comfy on have the book there you've been doing, basically Yeah. I enjoy everything about the book, but my eyes get tired. So I'm more of an audiobook guy. That's an experience of books I've not yet heard. I love everything about the book except the words and
well, it might be selling just need to know substance appears to me. I know. I know. But no, there is something.
I read an article that talked about the fact that
you can become smarter by buying the book and not even reading it.
I think I got that one. I think it's the same that if you smell healthy food, this is good. I'm gonna put
You get some health benefits as well just by surrounding yourself with healthy produce not eating it. What? medical misinformation on digital flashcards This is one where I signed up I've ever heard it
live in Google while I say that I'm pretty sure that's correct. But Sam's can polish I'd love to hear that. I'd love to get the thought process behind this article Who wrote it? I didn't read it I just read the headlines are
have a bad habit and find the literature to back it up with that literature is BuzzFeed it I mean, it's still worth backing. Yeah, have you found something? I have something. Health Benefits of smelling strong smelling foods. Research indicate where the right or wrong no sulphur compounds in alliums may slow or prevent the formation of cancer in the colon, oesophagus, lungs, mammary gland and stomach. Just wait for that thing. So
Bob All right. Yeah.
ragazze American Association Yeah, I'm Piedmont health something.
This sounds real looks very legit.
Um, could you smell onions guys roll onions.
I actually am. I realised the other day because Brian and I have been doing a lot of like food delivery like just just getting all of the like we're doing chinchin tonight for Brees birthday or whatever but just working our way through all the sort of fancy places on the weekends. But I realised that I'm not only doing that, but we got a lamp so it's really dark in our apartment. And so we've just got sort of like a single warm lamp to sort of create a bit of vibe. But I remember reading somewhere that if you have low amounts of lighting, you eat more. So I feel like I've created this perfect
Bubble where I've got like no light we're basically eating in the dark and just having like deliveries constantly like candles. Yeah. A bit of this is on the rating stuff at Zara. Have you seen those? Blue the blue light removing glasses I've seen heaps of ads going around. I just feel like I feel like you've been my phone. I have been messaging Michelle these so much I've been telling her that reading from a screen is giving me headaches and I'm getting blurry eyes and then my eyesight is going my eyesight is not going I'm just desperate for it to go so I can get glasses and I feel like I feel like my solution is blue light glasses like I don't even mind if they're a false. I just want to look like a box. Is this not too dissimilar? Like wanting to wear glasses when you don't have a prescription? Isn't that the same vein of me owning all these books and not reading them? Yes, exactly. No, hold on. Mines Wayne. I mean this vanity this the thread is vanity for sure.
I'm in a bit I feel like it's a case you know like people crack the shits because like hot actors were getting ugly rolls. I feel like this is the equivalent where it's you don't have permission to wear gloves like unless you need them Zara, you can't be you can't be increasing your look based on auto. We did do a few unofficial eyesight tests in the office. Zahra was saying this for a long time so I was just getting like bits of paper with letters on them and going across the opposite getting her to read them and you got 100% I don't think you guys have a problem. We have very productive days in the office if you can't tell. I was also I was also sitting on like a spec I think Specsavers website and they do. They do like virtual I trans. Josh Have you tried this and what happens is you can pick the glasses and they take a photo of your face and you just try on all these glasses virtually and I was like picking the ones that I wanted. I just made I just made worse. I thought now was just a hobby.
In fact, right now, I think it's such a good, like fashion accessory.
Do you think it gives him depth? Um, as in eyesight wise or personality?
No image wise, brand wise, image wise. Yeah, I think it's like
yeah, what is it? TJ? What do you think my glasses about me? Maybe not for you, but FFO intelligence. It's like the person who has all the books. They're not they're not. You know, one smile is you know, they're not the smart person that read them all and has the depth of knowledge there but visually, right? It's not. Yeah, it's, it's the same thing with people with British accents. I think if you have a British accent, you instantly sound 10% more sophisticated and more well read. British people just instantly think they're smarter than people with other accents, including American sorry, American. I'm more likely to listen to a doctor with a British accent. But then you hear what happened with COVID-19 in your
Like what the old days accents and would have could have
Yeah. To be honest, I haven't. I haven't enjoyed English accent movies. I mean, it's not a genre at all, but it's just English people.
Grant is a john rrah of his own. Yeah, I can I know. Yes. But I haven't so I hate I hate period dramas. I'm just gonna I know that the crown and all this stuff is great. People love it.
Do you like Notting Hill? Yeah, I did like the film but at least had said was it Sandra Bullock in it? Who was the no Julia? Sorry, Julie.
Dean, Notting Hill. There's something about the American as we grow up on it, right. Like, have you have you both been to America ever? No.
Don't you feel like when you're there, I think we were trained when we're young watching Hollywood films.
American accents like it feels so, like. It's like this is where the stars are. You know what I mean? Like it's holiday branding based on American accents across the globe. Now they have and because I reckon I had more American accents watching pop culture when I was younger in Australia and it feels like the default almost like the number one, when in reality that's true. Maybe it's because my dad's British, my dad moved over from England when he was a boy and both my grandparents English so maybe I was just immersed in more British stuff than American stuff, because my default is not American. My defaults British. Did you watch the bill as a kid? You?
To be honest, that was one that I liked the bill. It was a great police police drama
guy. Yeah, it was actually Love Actually the film. Yeah. Do you keep saying that? Nothing was Notting Hill. No. Did I say the film? Yeah, but for both times, you said a film
I'm trying to buy me. Time. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's a good way it's makes you sound more intellectual because
study. Yeah, yeah, the book, the book. I mean, if I said enough, I will get it right that there was a series and I have been the one that has read them all. And I needed to decipher which one were specifically speaking to. But I mean, speaking of books, I mean, and also, like, things that make you feel good announcements. I remember months and months ago, you announced that you're writing a book of your own. Yes. How's the process been versus the announcement? What felt better?
Oh, it's such an interesting one, because we've been working on it for so long. We signed the book deal in a food court in April of 2019. So
it was a high point court which I we had never been there in our entire lives. We just happened to be
While doing some work there. Yeah, we were having the chips that crinkly chips from one of the burrito sauces. tells us yeah, I mean you just
jerky no more historian to I was hot desking was getting some lunch at the time.
love this story. It's great. It was very us like we seem to be eating chips in all of our big moments with China. So I think they're not fitting that the book is not glamorous moments. Are they Michelle? Oh no, not even a little bit. Food Court is very on brand for us. Um, it's been weird. It's It's interesting. The book is entirely done basically. Like it's in proof editing mode right now. And in the mode kind of like the awkward phase of reaching out to people and be like, Can you read this and give us an endorsement or like a little quote to put on the book cover if you like it. So that's an uncomfortable but important thing to do as well. So I don't know. It's weird. Like, it feels like forever ago that we wrote the thing so I just can't wait for it to be out and maybe
Read it because it feels like we wrote most of it what czar like nine months ago?
Yeah, I reckon we started really writing it and we will give more detail on it in the next two weeks. We're not even trying to be deliberately evasive. Actually, no, we are deliberately vague. But it is coming like
can you get a
comma? Wait, Michelle, what kind of the word VA, isn't it? Oh, yeah.
titles three words bigger. Yeah, well, that's lots of clothes. Yeah. I reckon we started writing in in June last year. And so I think what I find so strong range is that I was most we smashed it out in about a lot of the book riding we did in like the first eight weeks and I was 24 at the time, and I will be 26 when it's out and it feels like quite a gap in maturity. And sometimes you're reading back and you like, oh, would I say this differently or would I do this differently, but I think
If that's the case with any work, especially on such a long timeline, but it's pretty hard God I wouldn't recommend writing a book if you've got a if you struggle with self
Yeah, just you just feel like the world shooters person and like, like so stupid. I know that sounds so dramatic, but you just feel like you can't get your words out you're not articulating anything well
because like, I feel like I pretend like I'm like I'm gonna write a book I'm gonna start and I'll stop I'm like, this is gold by never bring it to any any person. So it feels quite safe Nicole's bullshit.
Place. I think it happens in the writing phase. It happened to me probably more than it did for Zahra. I think in the actual writing bit before anyone put eyes on it. I think I was self guessing myself all the time. And I would start writing one part of the book and then look at the idea and be like, I don't even like that idea. I'm gonna start all over again. So I think I'm golden czar in the writing phase had a huge crisis of confidence and like was looking at some of my work being like, this is
Just not yet. And then I'd scrap it and start again. And then the editing phase, we probably like oscillated a little bit between who found it more difficult. But there were definitely moments for both of us where we were like fucking hell, I'm the worst writer ever, this will never be good. There were such huge moments of calm, like, depleted confidence, we will like this book is just not as good as we want it to be. But we've finally got to the point now, after working on it for so long, we're genuinely really happy. Like after we finish this chat, I'm going to sit down with the final manuscript and go through in mock any proof edits that I can spot. So it's been an interesting process and to kind of see it in like physical form has been really exciting.
I don't think people warn you enough about that slump, though, I think for I know it's I don't even think it's just
a case of grinding, but I think any project you worked on for a really long time, those slumps was so big, like I would genuinely go to bed the night before knowing that I had to do a whole day of like looking at edits and rearranging stuff and kind of re crafting ideas.
Not being able to sleep because that was so filled with dread, because you're literally facing all of this work that you've put in for months and it potentially being wrong or needing to change or not being smart enough or not making sense. And that's kind of hard. But missions, right? Like there's a lot in there and we've done everything we can to get it to a point where it's at least readable, but that we were talking yesterday. It's the permanency of the thing like we've always worked in digital and in podcasting, I feel like you guys would be similar. The idea that something's in print forever is is can I swear? Yeah. I've been swearing the entire, like, the impact on terrifying.
Yeah, it's, um, it's a good one. It's been fun though. Like, I think the process has made us better writers visual, having such talented editors and copy editors work with us on it has been so great because we're working with people who are far smarter, and yeah, far more educated about the industry than we are. So it's been great for our development, I think. I mean, we're in the mid 20s. So it's been just awesome to have like mentors or
Amanda's showing us the ropes. Well, I guess it's the first time you're going through it wasn't even like, started releasing a video a day. To be fair, I've done one. Today I'll do another I saw it looks awesome. But I last night I was editing and I was like, Oh, hello, old friend. I wasn't talking. I was thinking I was not on I wasn't anyone in my house. I was the old friend is that voice in your head? Just going this is shit. Look at you, you're gonna fucking line in your forehead, like you just start criticising, like the most stupid shit that no one thinks about. But like, I've I've done so many videos in my life. And I'm still getting that. So I think that like the only certainty is that there will be that lizard brain at some point along the creative process. But I guess it's like, how you deal with
it's just Hey, how you deal with
it is it the bed thing that I brought up earlier is that
I'm gonna cut you off every time. I'll be your Yeah, I'm actually how much do you want to how much you want to pay for the task? Because I'm having to do it. I'll be honest.
All right, I'll come pick it up. He's on job paper. So we do it for
I'll make you a hot meal.
meal. Oh, yeah. No, no 10 bucks. She doesn't want to pay the 10 bucks. 10 bucks, but it depends what is the hot meal? Okay, do you want what's worth more than $10? I'll make your I'll make your roast.
Shell. Have you ever cooked to roast in Yola? No, no, you're doing the doing that lamb thing that you had, you might helping with the note like, oh, have you been cooking? Raising the pole? Yeah. Yeah. What have I done? I've done lamb. I'm rigour. I mean, I say I have I actually can't cook I'm a bit of a
fraud. My boyfriend is the cook
No, I appreciate
Look behind the books, the books. Of course I get it now. Wow, that sounds good cuz Well, I know
the whole thing around like writing a book and then having like a year and a half or whatever and getting older. How much from a growth perspective is there like with the podcast and like, I feel like we go we oscillate between it being fun for what we're doing. But then there's definitely moments of like, Oh, this is actually this is work right now. How has the relationship changed in regards to how you view the podcast? Ah, that's so interesting whether it became more like work in the time that we were writing. Yeah, even when you're writing just in general, like, how has your perception of the podcast changed? Yeah, I think it's, um, it's gone from being I mean, it's
Got it, it was a thing that I used to look for to make. And it's it's not probably the thing I look forward to most in the week. And that's not because I don't love it anymore. I'd like i'd love it a lot. But because it becomes the central part of your business and your work day, you think of it very, very differently to when it was some random kind of project that you and your friend would just sitting down talking smack about. So it's definitely I think, I think because also the job just gets harder as time goes on. Like because it gets bigger and it gets harder, you take it so much more seriously, and the fun. We try so hard now that we've realised that it's it's work to bring the fun into it and make sure that there are really fun aspects so that we continue to feel that sense that we felt at the very start, because it's always going to end up feeling like work. It's never always just going to be your hobby, but to have those elements of fun has been really important for us to put it in there. So it does sometimes just feel like two friends jumping on the mic. Yeah, totally. And it's still fun, but it definitely changes because the bigger something gets the more you realise like in the early days, we would have had what 50 listeners an episode.
And it was for us like the majority of why we did the podcast was for our and enjoyment, but the bigger something gets in, the bigger the audience gets, it becomes more for them than it is for you. So it's a matter of balancing what you genuinely find interesting and what you want to talk about with what the listeners want to hear. And I think the bigger podcast gets doesn't always neatly aligned. So it's kind of like finding a happy medium, what desire and I genuinely enjoy talking about and what does that audience want. And I think that's been a really good learning curve for us to try and find balance between those two things. Because if we only listen to what we want, or we only listen to what they want, it won't be a good product in the end, because we're not genuinely enjoying and we're not genuinely invested in what we're doing. So it's like we love the podcast. We love it so much. It's such a joy to bring it out. I definitely find at the moment I think the Thursday episodes where we interview influential people, those are like my favourite things to do. I always get nervous before we sit down and do them but I feel like I take so much away from them and I feel like I genuinely love sitting down with people who experience
in their fields and so insightful because I it's so rare that I walk away from an episode and not feel like I've learned something or have a new perspective or a new mantra on life or approach to work or approach to relationships that I didn't have beforehand. So yeah, I think the the more the podcast has gone on, the more I genuinely really love the Thursday episodes, and how much I really like relish that time with people because you don't get to sit down with incredible people that often like there's so time pour so to be given that privilege is just such a joy. Yeah, did you guys find that when you were recording twice a day, that kind of the the joy was harder to find because you're pushing out so much stuff and you became like on a bit of a hamster wheel or not.
I think like, for me, I enjoy I enjoy the
like the doing, like I love I love this part of it. I love the tech, I love all that sort of thing. I think that the part that I find the hardest to reconcile is the relationship with the listener and so on.
Understanding Okay, like, I don't have a huge Friendship Circle or whatever, like I have a few tight friends. And that's really years. And so what thinking about like, okay, what's the empathy for the listener? What do I like? What am I saying right now? And how does that like, what does that how does that impact them or what's interesting right now. And so I think that why what I find so interesting about your successes you've been able to, I think it's such a different world that you're in, because when you get to a scale, all of a sudden that relationship can change where it's like you just hearing from it, like the the amount of noise that would be hitting you. I don't know if I could do like, it's a conversation that TJ and I have all the time, which is like, we're always like half pushing our stuff out there because I'm like, there's that worry that if you go outside of your circle, if you go outside of your frequency, you're going to find people who it's not
And then you have to be prepared for whatever. You know, they have to say about it. I think Yeah, really good anything though. Yeah, like I'm with. I was talking to her about this last week like with normal people, it's something that I genuinely love, like normal people by Sally Rooney is my favourite book. And the television series is one of my favourite television series of all time, but it's not gonna be for everyone. And that's definitely something that you just have to accept, like, it's not gonna be for everyone. And we're really lucky because what we've managed to do in the last couple of years is find some pretty good mentors who can talk to us about how, how things grow, and what how normal it is, for people to find a product they don't really like or to find a product they really, really invested in. And it goes both ways. And for us to be able to have people to bounce off has been like completely invaluable, because for so long, we've been driving blind, just the two of us and we're kind of too young and like without the maturity to really understand how this industry works. Like we're just in many ways to grains.
So to be able to have people to bounce off keeps you completely sane, like so saying, Yeah, and we find them so helpful. Like, particularly in times like this, where we're all in our homes, jumping on a call with a mentor, who can kind of give us a bit of perspective, it's been so wonderful. I think there's also the version of how you would coping and dealing with any feedback or creative project and what the internal monologue is for yourself. Because, you know, some people could have the exact same situation but dealing in the exact opposite, you know, way of handling it. And so, the audience thing at the start, like you create something in the beginning in you, and it's very hard to understand and put a face to or, you know, persona to the audience and really embody that and then you start having people starting to listen and then it's like, Ah, it makes it that much easier to turn on the microphone because I know that I'm talking to the our friends, the gronk squad and you start releasing
sort of saying that, but I guess, Jay, you're talking about that step up from that, which is, when there's a, you know, a hole full of noisy people, and, you know, every there's every version of every person there. Well, because like, if you've got 100 people, there's got to be like at least five bad apples or whatever, right, like surely like it. And so when you think about from a scale perspective, it's like, yeah, I think that that's a, an interesting challenge around listening to feedback and knowing Okay, this is stuff that, you know, because the other thing too, is I think that feedback is normally like, there's truth to feedback, but it's normally the thing that actually like makes you different. So it's that weird thing of being like, Okay, this piece of feedback Yeah, they're right I am this or I am that but that's sort of like a superpower or something that I want to focus on. When do on the mentor stuff, Mitch, like when do you
Reach, reach out to them like, is it through times where it's tough for? Do you sort of have regular calls? I think we try to do it regularly. I think it's definitely more regular when life is normal, we probably hadn't done it as regularly in isolation, just because we haven't seen people we haven't had the meetings that we generally tend to have. So it's mostly on a regular basis that I think that's important for anyone in the industry. I mean, it's an odd industry that we're in, but we also have a responsibility. I think that if you do have an audience, it's your responsibility to listen to them and be open minded and everything. So yeah, I think for anyone listening, if you don't have a mentor in any industry, that is very public, I would be my number one recommendation. Like I very much hope that one day, Zahra and I individually or as a pair could be mentors to the same way that people have been mentors to us in the last 12 months because I think it's been one of the key things that have helped us had have perspective on it. What do they say then? What what's what's some of the
things that stand out. Do you know what it's, sometimes it's the stuff that you kind of know to be true. But you just want someone who you think is smart and empathetic to say it back to you. And it's just sort of like confirmation bias of something you think is true, but you really are desperate for them to say yep.
And I think for us, it's been mainly around growth, like, as you say, growth has been so good, but there's also a lot of noise and the whole and hospice Kool Aid and all that God's done. For us. It's probably it's more important for us to take breaks from it, I think more important for us to take holidays just to sort of like get out of that for a bit and get back into our own heads in our own lives for a couple of weeks at a time. I also kind of think that a job like this one has made me more introverted rather than extroverted. Like I was quite an extrovert before I started this podcast, but I think because you're interacting with people all the time, and you're having conversations about things all the time and that's where your work energy is going in my private life and finding myself like kind of wanting to live a much quieter existence.
than I ever have. And that's probably why I've loved this period of isolation so much, much. To my surprise, I wonder if you're the same mesh. I don't like isolation purely because of mental illness stuff. Like I don't think it's good for my mind to ever be idle. And I said that you can probably hear me by the way, I'm playing with a puppy in the background.
I it's not good for my mind to not be busy. And that is kind of backwards. And I probably need to get to a place where it's fine for me to be quiet and to be in solitude, or like have peacefulness and not be anxious, but that's just not where I am at the moment. And I know lots of anxious people are very similar that the busier you are, the better you are. So I don't enjoy isolation. Not because I don't like spending quality time with my partner like it's been wonderful to wake up and work with Mitch every day but I want to be busy I want to be commuting again every day I want to be coming. What about in terms of like
the job in terms of like whether it's made you moral, I mean, I guess maybe I kind of was a time like wanted to go out more of me.
twinkled the time like for dinner and got my energy there and that's kind of cut back way back. I don't know if it's changed for you based on how the job has changed. Um, I mean as far as am I more introvert or extrovert? Is that what you mean?
Hmm? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's definitely the feeling of wanting to fold into myself and I sold a Pandora socks. She's a podcaster out of the UK she hosts she's the co host of the halo show for anyone.
This is a nightmare. I've got a fire alarm test. Yes.
I'm gonna mute myself. So um, well while you
it's about the timing.
You know, I tweeted, she said that, um, she wants to be like human origami that right now she feels like the noise of the internet is very, very loud and she wants to kind of hide away and just be quiet and I definitely feel like but like I've definitely in the last book.
NPC Killa kind of wanted to spend less and less time on my foreign because I just feel like it can be quite confronting or like invasive sometimes to have a lot of noise so I definitely feel like that but as far as being introverted extroverted in person I don't know I think I'm mostly the same but I have noticed are probably become more introverted, but we're probably on the same level now. I think you were probably more extroverted than I was before all this. Yeah. Now just vaguely similar.
Yeah, love it.
did have a question. I don't know if it's to distract
you or anything but are you
really well, the eye contact two things at once, but I just wanted to know the
In regards to the feedback,
push push through.
This is an amazing indication of how it is to record.
This it worked working from home scribe. Now, the
Be able to come into my house in about half an hour. Hopefully social media stuff like so the busy thing I find interesting, Mischka. That's like there's different types of busy there can be the busy way you can be scrolling through and writing back to people and doing all of that what is the busy that serves versus the busyness that adds to the anxiety. The more time I'm off my phone the better so if I'm busy in terms of like, commuting around and being in the office and being around Darren Annabel and not being left for my orange thoughts to go wild. That's better for me being in the office with other people. I feel like I'm such an over thinker, that if I say something or I don't know I feel like when I cuz I'm such an over thinker, and if I'm not busy, it's like all my walls of insulation. It is totally toned down. So something that would normally not get through and I wouldn't even think about now does or doesn't early penetrate it like consumes me. So I've definitely noticed that like
Going into isolation of how to like triple the amount of psychologists appointments. I'm going to I'm now going every fortnight instead of every six weeks, and I haven't done that since 2017 when I began going so yeah, just the nature of being by myself or stuck with my own mind is not ideal. But I mean, the hard bit is, that is the human experience. We own like, we are we, I mean, this is Sam Harris, who has a meditation app called waking up, has a awesome awesome talk about meditation in the middle of chaos, and it's about being in isolation and essentially what you're talking about, it's an opportunity where we are all needing to have time to ourselves quiet time where we are confronted with our mind, I mean, how do you reconcile between
creating enough noise that you distracted from your own mind and then the the reality of you
You know, you will have quiet time where you have to confront that stuff I am a masking is someone who, you know, you've mentioned you have anxiety and this is not an ideal time for you. How do you how do you reconcile that? Well, I mean, in an ideal world, it would be different. Like in an ideal world, I'd be out of court without needing noise. And I understand that that would absolutely absolutely be a long term goal. But I think for now, I'm just trying to get through like, I'm just trying to be okay at the end of everything where I'm not an emotional, anxious wreck. So I know that like best case scenario, I'd be able to spend long patches of time by myself and be blissful, internally happy. And hopefully one day that is the case. All I know is that right now, it's not the case and I don't think it's helpful for anxious people to beat themselves up over that. I think like if you're in the middle of a pandemic, it's fine to get through however you want to get through and However, you can, not survives a bit hyperbolic, but however you can
maintain some kind of life.
balance and calmness. So, I mean, yeah, ideally, I would be able to just do this on my own and be okay. It just isn't the case right now. So
I'm not on medication at the moment. So I would prefer to stay off it just for personal reasons, because I'm already on so much medication for my asthma. So I think it's just a matter of finding new coping mechanisms, and figuring out what will work because so many different people with anxiety and mental illness have so many different ways of coping and kind of like having a strategy or a game plan around tackling it. So it might be a matter of going back to the drawing board with my psychologists and figuring it out. But right now, I'm just trying to get through a day without like, bursting into tears, because I'm so overwhelmed, is the overwhelm. Because I feel like I get very overwhelmed when there's like a lot of people involved because it feels like I'm a storyteller. And so the more people the more potential stories are the more small interactions that I could then be
misinterpret or create a story about it like that person writing that, they definitely mean this, how much of it for you is
triggered by that sort of interaction with other people.
Ah, as far as people in person very, very little like I don't think I spend time with people and then go away and fret over what I did, like my anxiety is not very socially entwined at all. I think my anxiety Actually, I'm, like we've written I've written about this before, and it'll come up in future projects, but my anxiety is very much related to myself. Like it's not how I relate to other people. It's how I relate to me. And like my, I'm hyper hyper critical of myself, which I think serves me well in some contexts and that I think it makes me good at my job, often, not all the time, but most of the time,
but when you're only left with your work, and you're only left with
Either noise on the internet or whatever and you don't have the people that you love around you as much like my girlfriend's mitches friends, our family, Zahra even just having her as a sounding board every day or Annabel in person, then I am left with my own hypercritical thoughts. And it's very difficult to get through a day when you're constantly being told by yourself that you're not good enough. So that's my anxiety. My anxiety is not related to other people, my anxiety is entirely related to my relationship with myself. And so then that doesn't project on like so. So if you feel a certain way about yourself, like I feel like this with my wife, where it's like, if I'm feeling heavier, I feel like people are thinking thinking that how much of it then projects back or is it all like contained?
I mean, occasionally. It's an interesting question, because you would think that if that's the way I think about myself, and if I am if I do get into spirals of like self hatred, that I would then assume that everyone else hates me and sometimes I do
Think that way. But it's not like a day to day I come home and I have all these little instances of moments where I think I've upset someone or I've said the wrong thing, or I've annoyed someone.
I don't know. Sorry. You know me, Well, what do you think?
Well, in what context? What's what kind of sets you off? What do you think triggers my anxiety?
And it's really, I think, auto time. I don't think that they're at sometimes. Sometimes I think this is so weird to try to psychoanalyse you in front of other people. But it's kind of interesting to me. Because sometimes you'll think something is the trigger, like whether it be a situation at work, or maybe it might be for example, like book writing got really intense me like, well, it must be that. And I kind of try and sit there with you. And I'm like, Well, I don't feel like our situation has changed that much, or our scenario has changed that much. So is there something else going on? Do you know what I mean? Like Yeah, it's interesting. I remember, um, to give an example to everyone listening who's like, What the fuck are they talking about? I remember a couple weeks ago, we had to reach out to a few people to ask them to raid.
And I found that so intensely anxiety inducing, I had to like turn off my phone. And like sit by myself because I couldn't grapple with the thought of me sending something to someone and then them realising that I don't know because I think it's not good enough, or I think I'm not good enough, giving it to someone else. And then dealing with the fact that they might turn around be like, yeah, like validate my feet. That was me because I was so anxious. And I was like, What are you like, what's going on? Like, I can't hit send on these emails. I'm throwing my phone across the room. And I remember calling you saying that. Okay. Worst case scenario right now is no one replies. And that is not yet like, indication that people hate the book, it's more of an indication that people are too fucking busy to read our entire book and give us an endorsement. Like, that's all it is. And that is totally fair. Like if someone sent us something, what's the guarantee that we would have the time or energy outside of our own work and projects to dedicate to that, like that's, that's not personal in the slightest, but it is that kind of sense of like, I guess in those kind of moments, sometimes logic doesn't really matter.
I think when most of you know, logic doesn't matter, and many of the feelings that we have married to logic or rational at all, and it's just, it's probably seems very self indulgent. I'm having people psychoanalyse me. But I genuinely do believe that it's helpful for anyone to talk about anxiety and depression on it. public speaker like platform, wherever that is like not to say that my anxiety is special that we should all sit around and pick it apart. But just to say that it's helpful for anyone to talk about anxiety because I don't I think we have conversation around anxiety that is quite surfacey and kind of downplayed how serious it is. I think anyone who knows me very well for that Zahra or Mitch or my family know that it's quite intense at times and I think public discourse around what anxiety looks like can be quite silly and downplay like the severity of what it can look like today. I feel like cheek, TJ like I feel like we talk a lot about like,
I feel like I'm true. If I'm in a spiral, someone trying
To speak logically, to me, I feel like only triggers me more. Because it feels like in that moment, it's like, no, like, you've got your reality. I've got my reality you're not speak it. Like, we both think that we're speaking from a place of logic who's right or who's wrong? I mean, I think that
you TJ what's what's your thoughts? I feel like you've had a different you have a different journey in regards to anxiety that it's there, but it's not necessarily. It doesn't come out the same way as I what mine does. Well, I guess, just on your point, Michelle, around the conversation of anxiety, I think, you know, like me as a, you know, 12 year old or 15 year old or 18 year old or 23 year old. I don't think I was thinking that I was an anxious person I didn't identify I don't think the conversation was definitely there. But it's not like it is today where, you know, everyone is reflecting
And reflective of their internal dialogue and what state they're in. And it's nothing but positive, I think. But yeah, there's there's differing levels of anxiety and like you said, You have severe or you have small amount. It's like, it is worth understanding and, and knowing what that feeling is and acknowledging and it's, I mean, JJ, is it. I think it's a, our versions of what, you know what anxiety we have.
I think I am one that goes to that logic place. It's probably you know, it, maybe it is I feel like Zara, you mentioned about the email stuff and those things. Do you find that reassuring? Michelle, when you hear that from Zara that sort of Steve was just about to ask No, of course, I'm not sure is though, is that I put too much value. I know that my value
Was misplaced. Like, I know that my priorities or my value system is out of whack. Like I pay, I place far too much emphasis on what other people think of me, compared to the average person, like, I think I'm hyper critical and I place too much value in everyone's opinions of me.
So but when Zahra does say, what's the worst thing that can happen is that they don't reply. And the reasons that they might not reply extend beyond you sock like raisins, or they've got young kids at home. they're asked to do this every second week by authors and if they said yes, to ask that have that feel pressure to say yes to everyone else. They just might miss it in the inbox and it might be totally innocent, like saying those things genuinely Does, does help me and does put into perspective. It's, it's an interesting thing with my anxiety. I feel like if I vocalise something, though I'm already kind of like the horses bolted, like as soon as I've had thought, and then got into the stage of voicing it out loud. It's too late, like the anxiety is already there. I'm already spying
about it. I have so many thoughts all the time that often I push them down, but if I vocalise one, it's kind of like, Oh, fuck, I'm having a bad day. Does anything serve you in your anxiety? Because I feel like part of the thing is like, I'm very obsessive. And so if it's on the wrong thing, it's destructive. But then if it's on the right thing, it could be extremely productive. Does your anxiety serve you at all ish? I think my anxieties have made in a career sense, because I think it makes me care a lot about what I do. I think it has also made me a more empathetic and sensitive person. I think we can often talk about like sensitive people as being weak. But I think there is a certain strength in caring and caring deeply about the people and the things around you. And I genuinely do care a lot about a lot of things. And I'm not sure I would be caring and be empathetic without my anxiety not to glamorise it because it's still an illness, but I think the the parts of my personality that are anxious parts are
Definitely parts of me that kid deeply about family and friends like I'm fiercely fiercely loyal to my family in particular. And like my partner in everything, so I think I am extremely affectionate, extremely loving, as a person. So those are the positive aspects. I mean, the negative aspects of probably I'm also hyper emotional all the time. Like, I have very emotional responses to things because I play so much self worth in otherwise meaningless, everyday things.
Yeah, it's a it's an interesting one because yeah, if it serves you or if it's if it feels like it's really part of you. I think that that's the hard thing is it's like, I think that a lot of I spend a lot of time in trying to work out the fixing of these things like okay, what can I do, like fix this or fix that or, and it feels so intertwined with everything that you do. That seems quite hard to separate? the good and the bad? Yeah, I've done
It'll, yeah, there's the stuff that I've done about this as well. I'm excited to share. But I definitely feel like I've always been an anxious person. So figuring out where that line is between Okay, I was anxious when I was a toddler. And I was anxious when I was 13 and 18 and 25. Now 26, when did it become an anxiety disorder? And where is the line between the two? Like, what do I look like with that anxiety, I would look like a completely different person. So it's not like I want to remove the anxious parts of myself because they make me who I am. I want to remove the parts of myself that make it extremely difficult to function sometimes. And this is the first time my anxiety has been mismanaged or out of control in years, like, the last couple of years, it's been really quite well managed. I just want to be honest about it not being managed at the moment, because I think that's important. I think so often we hear conversations around mental illness when someone's doing really well, like they've gone through it. They've gotten help, and now they're okay. And I don't think mental illness is ever that linear. I don't think you
manage them like how do you miss it like, you're mad?
Because you're I think you're implying fault that? Well, it's not that I'm saying it's tricky, like, because they use some fault in that I'm not exercise. Exercise is a huge part of managing my anxiety. I'm not exercising and many are enough. So it's, yeah, you're right, it's probably is putting blame on myself again. But I do think there's a problem with conversations around mental illness only happening when someone's reached a resolution. And I think in reality, you're going to have hurdles and need to find resolutions again and again and again. So it's helpful to talk about it when you're like, this is a dip and I'm not doing great, but I'm gonna do something about it. Well, I can't like I can't remember a stint of more than two days where I felt amazing. And whether it be just some version of anxiety or stress that comes in so that that is the promise of the human experience is that it will be up and down and every version of your emotion across
Awake or a couple of days or even a day itself? And so I mean, that's, I mean that all the all this stuff is right, like us understanding and accepting what what is the human experience? And then it's the way forward. Yeah, I don't know if there's a version of fixed, which, you know, medication will keep you at like high high levels of medication could keep you at a exact version. But I mean, that that's not the existence that you want. And I wonder if there's like a lifestyle that like so being in the spotlight, being in the public eye having a big audience, I mean, like, do you think Mitch about like, oh, if I was, if I was doing like a regular job where I wasn't, didn't have so many sort of, because there's if you if you've got the self critical part of you in you, and then you enter into a world that is critical, and that allows for people to give that sort of feedback. Do you ever think about
What your life or what you'd be like as a person if you weren't exposed to that? Yeah, all the time. I mean, Zahra and I both have siblings who are in completely non public careers. Like it's very like traditional career paths. I think it would be natural for both of us to even consider what I lost would be like if we weren't in the media and doing what we were doing. I have considered and I thought about it, I think about it all the time. Like is my work too public to be mentally happy. But ultimately, I keep arriving at the same
belief in that I love what I do. Like I genuinely love work, I find so much enjoyment and fulfilment, more importantly, out of what we do and what we put out into the world. So I think it's more a case of learning to cope with the noise. And I don't just because I'm not doing that right now, doesn't mean I normally do it. Like I've done it for two years. And I'm fine. Like I don't want to take these pocket of a pandemic.
can be like, oh, all of a sudden my career is I'm on the wrong career. I'm, I need to change everything. And I can't cope with the feedback that comes with being in the public eye because normally life looks nothing like what it does right now. So I think that's why I'm trying not to extrapolate too much from like six weeks of existing because I did this for 24 months, or particularly the last 12 months before things got really, really big. And I've been mostly fine like, sorry, I would say I've had little blips where I haven't been well, but we've we've had that for each other. Like we've both had moments where we've struggled, but we were definitely coping perfectly fine before the pandemic.
What job would you do outside like, you can't do any of the jobs you've previously done? You had to start a new life. I like to think I'd be a great cop
to that, but
in the times where I've been like, is this for me, like, Can I handle like I said to me, as if we stay in this line of work forever. Any kind of work we ever do will be public, and that's kind of a weird thing to put out.
But nothing you can kind of do. Nothing you can ever do to earn money can be private in the kind of specific sphere that we found ourselves in. So in the times that I've thought about, like, other work, and then like, I don't think I could do anything else, like, I don't know, what in the world I would be good at or what I could possibly do. Like, I just have no idea.
I think it would have to be like, I've always wanted to be a psychologist. I was always like toying with that before. And I mean, so ironic because we've just spent all this time talking about mental illness. Probably psychology, I think I've had my family has a history of mental illness. I've always had an interest in it. So yeah, I would love to be a psychologist if I wasn't a writer and a podcaster.
Yeah, maybe like I would
give it all fans a crack. Is that the thing?
Yeah, you don't have to get naked and
I feel like it couldn't be good in between for you if you don't want to go public. But you'd still need sort of the some of the public eye you could create a bit of a community.
I love it. Yes, but what is the deal? No, that's not what I'm implying only fans can anything from Oh, I mean, TJ, you know more about the only fencing what is the actual deal? who's like, can you search on it? disclaimer have never paid for a
Just Google, you know, leaked only fans, and that's what is the deal with only fans. So it is fascinating. And I predict in the next two months, you'll talk about only fans on your podcast.
Seamus, who's come he was talking to
people before Miss design guy.
That's you to TJ Yeah, I mean, if people want to get shamed
before it hits shameless Listen,
I could bring on TJ I watched an interesting conversation between Logan Paul of all people and you know, a couple of other people on his podcast where they were they were talking about a so what was tic Tock before tic Tock it was musically I think and there was the biggest musically stop this young girl who has now gone on to only fans. And you know, it was surprising to a bunch of people and you know very young and and and then I was reading a few articles of people talking about this is the modern version of when people made the decision to start doing porn back in the day. And the sort of you know, the the Korea damaging can't work again, is only fans is that new version, and I've watched a couple of guys who I followed years ago on Instagram they just used
Do prank channels and then they've all gone on twit I know who you're talking about and then you no one's gonna go friend they do what he's doing on the fans.
I mean if they're being truthful these people are making so much money like yeah 50 grand a month from doing some are we gonna get over we're gonna get over sort of the taboo nature and we're all gonna just be be honest rather base podcasts on only sexy content it's like the the seal section of the Dali thing Make sure to do 60 episodes of shameless and only fat and and then there is like other girls on you know big influencers on Instagram that are refusing to collaborate with any girl who has done only fans or has an only fans and so it is this sort of big circle of people going you know only fans is tarnishing anime fans is making people will have anyone that may come on when an open show what
happens Oh, yeah, absolutely don't discriminate, but yeah, we it will be interesting to see like
what people like
Aaron Carter, we got a message when we're talking about only fans. He He's I think he's got a fiance. He does hardcore gay porn on only fans. That's what really told us. Yeah. And so there's all this stuff we don't you don't know unless you subscribe. So
the main way I came across it was actually those prank channels that you were just talking about. Mitch and I have watched a few of those videos and stuff just like dumb stuff on the internet's really kind of kills the brain cells, but it's fun to watch. Yeah. And I'm been really surprised by how many of that that group have gone into porn. Literally.
It's for you. Well, yeah, I mean,
judgement assignee, these, the weed step that I don't even know if these people technology has created the entrance into porn in a in a seamless way where people I'm sure would have, you know, a year ago, never thought they'd be doing that. The onboarding. I wonder what the onboarding process is to get into porn nowadays. It's like
It starts with just showing some snapchats. And
surely this has got something to do with like it being direct to consumer and then making far more money without other people taking a cut, which is a great thing. I think at the end of the day if people are able to make like genuine good cash from something that they want to, then maybe it's better that there aren't big companies out there taking the cut their cut from
headlines last year, I can't remember the name of her ever, the Mia Khalifa, the number one porn star on the world, revealing that she and she made like $10,000 for those videos, and absolutely nothing for these videos that was streamed millions of millions of times. So you could even say that, Tommy, you've brought us a great segment, Nadia, thank you. So this is actually democracy. It's like it's a feminist.
Doing porn being paid for it. There is another porn star that is the biggest in the world. She did porn for teachers loving this now you want to know he's
only fan right?
months, three months, and hasn't done it in three years. But she's still the number one doesn't do porn hazardous run using Khan as a partner but has an only fans and has a private snap account where she makes something like $300,000 a month. But I mean, if anything like I mean, the the sad bit of that Mayor story is that she couldn't make any money and she put herself out there and you know, but you know what I think she says it's sort of ruined her for a long time. But it's like, yeah, it's a time where they end up raping the money right on Ronson who didn't say been publicly shamed. He did the audible original thing. It's called the butterfly effect, which is all on like the porn industry and it covers all that sort of stuff. But it's, it's interesting. It's interesting, like I definitely care a lot more now that I've thought about it from the fact that like women and men who are doing it will at least be making the money you know, these huge
kind of coolness.
But I guess like
A general look at it but I guess, less likely to be taken advantage of because of that, like direct to consumer avenue that they've got. So I'm probably like Tommy jacket this maybe? Yeah, yeah. porn on my terms maybe
at least the way Yeah, yeah. Entrepreneur line on what's everyone watching or listening or consuming? It doesn't it's a weird transition.
It's quiet. And what am i watching listening? I haven't been doing I'm looking for a television series so if anyone's got any really good recommendations of something I'm going to get stuck into please come at me. But I just finished normal people like every second person in the world. And like since is just been deep diving me Sally Rooney interview ever. I just think we're overcook anything. Like if I like something, I'll either ate it in excess or listen to it in access. So all I do is just go through iTunes and find interviews with Sally Rooney, which I am loved.
Right, your internet cooked a little bit but I heard all of that the
way so iTunes you're not using like the Sally Rooney stuff like YouTube would be a good resource. Like I feel like I've got YouTube on the TV, and I just YouTube people's names like that sort of how I get into my rabbit. Ah, I'm not a watcher. I'm a listener. I'm a I'm a doula, as I'm listening. So I just happened into the the old iTunes account. just too busy to watch things. Now, I guess if you have YouTube, pretty dangerous. Now you've got YouTube premium, where I reckon the future is it's like you'll just sometimes you'll watch, you'll have it on the TV and then you'll like, go to your car and it will like pass on to you. And so yes, seamless. You have video first and then audio amongst at all. But I'm going to go live, I think. No, I think it's a good idea to with listening, you can actually walk and do things. I've done less than 1000 steps a day for the past six weeks. Miche
What do you hear me? mentioned I've been watching the last dance or last dance however you pronounce it with the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix loving it. Like I love sports. So
combining like the drama, and the, I don't know, just like looking back like there's a bit of nostalgia factor. Obviously I'm not from the US and I don't really give a crap about basketball. But I think there are elements of Michael Jordan's career that have nostalgic for everyone. So looking back on that has been really good. Like I'm finding myself every night wanting to watch a new episode of that series. And then I'm also enjoying terrorists house I kind of had like a hiatus from terraced house if you haven't watched that. It's a reality television show on Netflix that has it's from Japan. So it's got subtitles English subtitles. I'm watching the Hawaii
season of that show. And I just love it so much. It's just like the most calming thing to have on the television. It means I have to put my phone down otherwise I have no frickin idea what's going on because I'm not reading the screen.
So yeah, I've been like training Benji to sit and stay and all those good things while watching terrorists house and Michael Jordan. Feels like that is that is awesome. There's a lot of hype. But do you think that hype is at the extreme at the moment like, say with Tiger king or the all the different things it's like, everything is overhyped. It's like the UN I get, I get tricked every time and I end up like trying to buy into the hype. I tried to watch the one where it's like the people in the boxes and they they're doing the dates, but I can't see each other.
So I did love his mind. And then I did the one where the they go on the island and they can't have sex or keys or whatever. Yeah, too hard to handle.
Josh, there's this article that I read recently, and I'm also gonna butcher this because I can't remember the title, but it was from a year ago, and it was on long rates, but it was basically like when did we all have to become like pop culture experts and it's this idea that we're in like this hype era where things have like, the fastest
High, like the fastest high and a really quick crash. And it's almost like if you don't watch something or consume something that's really popular in that week or two that everybody else's, it almost becomes irrelevant. And I find it very interesting for like pieces of content to be like, we all feel so much pressure now to consume something at a certain time when in reality, they seem to kind of timeless, it's just that if you want to be part of the conversation, you've got to do it now or forever be out of it. I think as well, like people are connecting over pop culture and television and film now more than ever, we don't have sport to do that for us at the moment. So if there's going to be a public conversation, it's going to be about one show in particular, and people get FOMO if they're not watching it. I also think I don't think it's just priced and I don't think it's just hot. I think things are overhyped. And I think they're over criticised at the moment. I think everyone has too much time to be thinking really intensely about everything. And I think that brings out commentary from both sides. So I don't think people are just being too glowing. I think they're also being too harsh about things that they're not loving. So it's kind of like both sides of the coin present themselves. That
Same time. Yeah, but let's be honest when when someone comes to you and we've all got a mate who has said have you heard serial, the podcast? It's like come on it's it's fun to have a Kim Kardashian does that a lot? Can you?
I don't know. I reckon there's something in that way she knows that it's gonna have that effect. Like I think they get quite in tune Is it is it okay to hype something and recommend it before it's even come out and you haven't seen it? Is that a no no. Because total nine so I've seen the trailer and it looks epic and its reviews are great. And it's called becoming the king of Staten Island. It looks so so good. And it's gonna stay until you've watched it Pete Davidson, who I want you to watch the trailer and you'll be on my side Pete Davidson, who's on Saturday Night Live used to go with Ariana Grande day. He his dad died as a firefighter in September 11. fighting the fires at the Twin Towers.
And it's about him it's like a biopic written it kind of by a picket like it's it plays a guy who lost his dad in the fires and so it's it looks ridiculous it looks ridiculous so I'm it comes out on June I mean it sounds interesting
just watch it it's funny we can get behind the hype when we've watched it well TJ TJ three months ahead of ahead of you he needs to be recommending shit that's not out yet see anyways I had you know you recommend enough something will land in Gary Vee method you just talk enough shit you cut it up into bits then you're like look, I said I was gonna be big.
We get a tile on Gemma Watts's Instagram got it, you know asking you shall receive girls. Can we get a tile on?
Like a main
Yeah, Mike, I actually I actually think sabes got the tile. Yeah, I actually
Do you think
Mr. Confidence? dairy is looking at him? That looks like a face of the towel on the shine? lis. Instagram, he's got he's got the shot for it. Haven't we done enough?
We got to go. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's tapes.
Saves any any any questions you've been sort of off off screen today, but anything you wanted to bring up any admin? No.
Well, I mean, I just think around the whole anxiety conversation like, I mean, I'm just echoing what everyone's mentioned in the comments, but I think it's just being able to have the conversation.
And and normalise and sort of remove the stigma around it is is one of the best things we can do. so grateful for that.
So back to the tie
back to the
Do you even know?
To lie? You got the Instagram towel that was talking about?
I love when you have to over justify a joke. Oh, definitely. That's sort of my shtick. That's, you know, it's all just
just double down. Yeah. Thank you for having on the show. Anything.
Thank you for having us. I mean, you're I'm very, I'm sorry, Michelle. This I know why you've got anxiety. It's got something to do with that.
Why would it give everyone else more anxiety than me? I'm the one that live with it. No, no, we're living.
Can I just say there's nothing more triggering than saying you off screen while Mitch is talking. plugging your computer into power? What do you mean you didn't have power plugged in?
For the whole thing. I had to wait I had 100% I didn't need power. Also, I would like to say now that we're finishing this. I recommend ct 50% of anything.
This means that I've held well so I love how you guys think that you've had the issue just like our the stuff like the power it is good to have everything plugged in so when you when you go to super low energy on the laptop, everything starts to shit the bed
everything Josh I put it I plugged it in before I love how you sold that to me very subtle because Michelle was talking about herself very well.
You got to do it way before 20% anyway, well, lovely being here. Yeah. And also Ethernet like, can you How close are you to your router?
Well, God, we can. There's no there's no it's definitely not a lecture, but I'm just I'd love to help. There's just a few things, getting an ethernet cable so you're not worrying about like even NBN I heard on the radio, they're doing ads, where they're like Hey, where
Adding 40% more bandwidth for ISP is at no cost and things like that. But they're also saying that hey, it could be your Wi Fi. And so my guess is that your internet might be better than you think. And you could just run a cable and so if you if you did not
I don't know and I also can't really hear anything anymore. So I'm
sorry, before we go, I'm gonna play one of the the 10 seconds of admin.
And here we got 10 seconds of admin. Take a screen grab right now if you listening to the show posted on Instagram as a story and we'll regram it what a deal