Living someone else's dream

Tommy: It is 11:50 in the morning here. It's Tommy and Josh with the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: No one gives a shit what time it is because they're listening to it the time they want on demand.

Tommy: The thing is, this, this is the type of podcast where I think people are going to listen to them on the day or the day after. Yeah, because this shit's going to be— there's going to be so many, unless I guess people are drawn to the, um, the title. Yeah, but, uh, Tommy and Josh here, and it's a Thursday. Here in Melbourne.

Josh: Episode what?

Tommy: Episode— fuck if I know— 13. 13. Lucky 13.

Josh: Are you, um, superstitious? Uh, around numbers?

Tommy: I don't think so.

Josh: No.

Tommy: What about the big moon? The big fuck-off moon that was— what was that all about?

Josh: I was asleep. So last night there was meant to be some super moon.

Tommy: I don't understand it. What does it mean?

Josh: I have no idea. Like, you're gonna be so into that shit. I mean, I lived in a street in St. Kilda That didn't have a number.

Tommy: Did you say I did or I do?

Josh: Yeah, I did. I've lived in St Kilda a couple of times.

Tommy: Okay. Yeah, sure.

Josh: I've moved away and come back. Anyway, there was, there's a street that doesn't have number 13.

Tommy: Really? For that reason?

Josh: Yeah, well, I think so. The real estate agent told me that. Could have been a good storey that they were just wrapping up.

Tommy: Isn't it the 13, like a lot of lifts, like elevators and stuff?

Josh: Casinos just will not have those. I think it's 13, the one that is a part, like there's some, some, so, so there's a lot, you know, in the gambling world when you go to casinos, they have a lot of expats from Asian countries coming in and they just do not put those levels there because they know that it's like, I won't go to the hotel that has that.

Tommy: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Josh: And so Vegas, there's, half, there's floors missing.

Tommy: I remember the, when my parents sold their house, I think 4 is a lucky Chinese number and they're number 4. So, make an extra 10% on whatever. It's amazing, isn't it? When you think about it.

Josh: Well, is it attaching? I mean, you're forming a belief around something and then you're attaching it to that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then that it's as good as true for you. Like if you believe it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Embody it, it's—

Tommy: That's why maybe the whole like, um, The Secret and the power of like positive thinking like this, I guess there's something to it.

Josh: 100%. It's, it's like my car park one. Have I told you that one?

Tommy: No.

Josh: So like, so, and I've done this across the years and I know it's just true for me, so you could try it, probably won't. But when I go to get a car park, yeah, I visualize. So whatever Whatever route comes into my mind first of what streets to take to get there, if I follow that and I stick to it, I usually get a car park.

Tommy: Okay. Yeah. And you criticise me for overthinking and you'll create this bullshit narrative around how you're going to get a car park.

Josh: I actually have started going against it and forming the belief around it doesn't matter for that. I'll go this way. It's weird. Like, it's just a hidden game that I play with myself.

Tommy: I haven't done it in a while, but I'll do things where I'm like, if I can cross the road now, Without any cars coming, I'm going to have a good day. But I think that what we do psychologically maybe is position ourselves so we know we're going to succeed. I know there's no cars coming.

Josh: So, you said that. If that is the secret, then that's the easiest thing to apply.

Tommy: 100%.

Josh: Just say something and then believe it.

Tommy: I listened back to the very first, like, listened back to our episode yesterday. Haven't listened back to any of our apps, just post them.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You said something profound.

Josh: Did I?

Tommy: Yeah. I thought that you saying the whole negativity and positivity thing and being like a selflessness versus selfishness.

Josh: Can't coexist.

Tommy: Yeah, it can't coexist. I think that that's a really good point.

Josh: Well, you can't be selfless and selfish at the same time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I think old mate Robbins, Tony Robbins, someone says the around the positive and negative. They cannot exist together. So you're either one or the other. And which one do you want to be?

Tommy: Makes a lot of sense.

Josh: It's a, um, it's a good place to live in. I talked to Amy about that around being— this was all sort of relating to being a parent. And that's what made me think about selfless and selfishness. Cause with a baby, you can be selfish. Like, I think you're always sort of like, tapping the wall, right? The baby starts crying at night. You're selfish for a few minutes because you're like, I cannot be fucked getting up.

Tommy: And it's so tired.

Josh: And you, so you sort of, you're just playing in that space and then you're like, okay, but you always come back to it if you want the kids to survive. And I mean, what can you relate this to in your life around the selfish and selflessness?

Tommy: I think maybe, um, Like with my relationship with Bri, it's constantly like, obviously, it's that constant, what would Bri, what does Bri want to do? And you need to be able to, I think that the key is that if you're going to do that, you need to be able to move forward and have action because you shouldn't use that as a reason not to do something. Like, it's like, oh, what do you want to do for dinner? Like, How fucking hard is it when you're in a relationship to work out what you're going to eat? So far, like, I've read a strategy on a meme. Anytime you're using a meme as like a strategy for life, you're probably a bit fucked. But it was, if you're struggling to work out what to have to eat, say to your partner, guess what I think we should have? Well, guess what I think we should have to eat? And then, They'll say fonda and you go, yep, let's have it.

Josh: And so, they almost feel like it's their idea. Yeah. They've given you a suggestion.

Tommy: And then they've only had one. It's not like, what do you feel like? Or what do you like? It's they have one answer and it's like, yeah, perfect. Let's do that.

Josh: It's a good idea. It's a good idea to sort of fast-track that process.

Tommy: Are you good at those micro decisions? Like working out what to—

Josh: I actually like Amy making a lot of them for me.

Tommy: But this is, this was the thing though. So, I did that. A fair bit with Bri, where I'd be like, if we had a trip, it's that thing of if this person cares more than I do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, Bri cares about what we're going to have for dinner way more than I do. So, I'll let her make the decision. And then it's been a number of years and it's only now that I'm starting to work out that even though she does it, she doesn't necessarily enjoy it. She's just doing it out of necessity. So, I try and take that now and say, okay, well, I can organise, like, okay, within this trip, I'm going to organise this bit, which is interesting.

Josh: Sometimes you need to go against yourself.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Whatever rule you've put in place.

Tommy: What does that mean?

Josh: So, testing out, right? So, you could be like, okay, Bree, I care more about this, but because I end up caring a lot about the accommodation that we're staying in if we're going away and I'm like, and it's just an initial reaction. But sometimes I throw that out and it feels uncomfortable to say, you, you deal with that and I will accept whatever it is because I get stuck in my ways and we all get stuck in our ways. But it's like if you live outside of the way that you normally do, you don't know what will happen. And you could, and if you go, I think if you don't go into it with a mindset of whatever it be, I'm going to enjoy it and not be a fucking, Like, so, are you talking a bit about expectations?

Tommy: So, you constantly apply expectations around what something's going to be like.

Josh: But even, okay, so it's like I drive the car more than Amy.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I feel like I'm safer at driving. It's like, you know, it's all based around my bullshit, probably.

Tommy: Yeah. Did your parents, was your dad always the driver? Mum drove a lot.

Josh: Dad was working, you know, during the day.

Tommy: My mum's got this weird mix of being quite sort of like out there and just like, you know, I can drop the C-bomb with mum. Sup, cunt. And it's no big deal.

Josh: You said you weren't saying the C-bomb.

Tommy: Yeah, I know. I thought of everything since yesterday's episode of us just getting into fucking dark areas. I'm like, if saying cunt's what's going to bring me down, then let it happen. But the— Yeah, I can say it to like, I can say that to Mum and we have a bit of a laugh in saying that she's like conservative and she's— I don't know the last time she's filled up petrol. She wouldn't have done it.

Josh: Because your dad does it.

Tommy: Yeah, that's Dad's job.

Josh: Interesting.

Tommy: And she won't fill up the car.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, I find that interesting. Or she's really funny about like driving into the city. And actually, that's why I remember, I thought of it because As a kid, my family was definitely— Mum thought it was weird if one of her friends who was a woman was like doing the driving. If the woman was driving, the guy in our household, there was the assumption that he was probably an alcoholic. Like, that was the only rationale for the woman driving, which is sort of really sexist, isn't it? Yeah.

Josh: It's very old school.

Tommy: Yeah. So old school.

Josh: This is so around that kind of throwing yourself outside your comfort zone or doing something that you wouldn't normally do.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: There's a friend of mine, Sam Cav. I remember him. He's, he was the executive producer of the Hamish and Andy show. He'd probably have a few fucking criticisms on this show.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Too bad I haven't told him about it. So Sam, you can't criticise it anyway.

Tommy: Is it the 40-minute talk break?

Josh: It's the C-bomb, mate.

Tommy: It's the C-bomb, really? No, no, I don't know.

Josh: Anyway, Sam, I saw him do this talk and he was talking about creativity and how do you kind of explore that creative muscle. And one of the things to do is, you know, at an airport, pick up a magazine you've never— you would never read hunting, or it might make you a bit uncomfortable seeing photos. But what it does is opens you up to this new world that isn't yours.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And you're playing in a new field and things.

Tommy: So for him, it would be ordering a steak at the airport. Because he's a vegetarian. Was that too far?

Josh: Yeah, I think it's too far. One of the other ones is, you know that—

Tommy: Well, how about this, Sam? I'll read the fucking hunting magazine while you eat a steak, or you can fuck off and just let me enjoy whatever it is that I want to.

Josh: But say you drive away to work every day.

Tommy: I get the idea. It's about being—

Josh: And you drive a different one. Yeah. Because you might see somebody—

Tommy: Creating— What are they like creating new fucking loops in your brain or, you know, neuro— new fucking whatever it is.

Josh: It's— I mean, that's how I come up with most of my video ideas. It's like going exploring, and exploring doesn't mean looking, walking through the jungle of the bush. It's like sometimes I just skate and have my eyes open and curiosity on. It's like I see some dude.

Tommy: Curiosity and confidence. Together are an amazing thing. I made a video with Jack Post, who used to be the producer for Hamish and Andy. We did a little YouTube video with me, but then we went out and created a video for him for his Instagram. We just shot it on my phone really simply. Yeah. We— He wanted— He's like, oh, in this, I want to get a shot of me at a bar with a bunch of people and having a conversation. And I'm just sort of looking out into the distance.

Josh: So, let me guess, your head is I don't go to bars, I don't drink, people we don't know.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: We can't fucking annoy them.

Tommy: Yeah. I was just like, well, I was like, okay, like I sort of laughed and like, oh yeah, that would have been good. And then was like, all right, let's go home. He's like, well, can't we go to the pub? Can we do it? I'm like, I guess. Yeah, we can do it. And so, no joke, because like I've known Jack for 6 or so years. He's come out of his shell. He just went up like he got a beer, went into like the outside area, straight away went up and said, "Hey guys, I'm making a little Instagram video. Is it okay if you're in it?" And that wasn't the bit that scares me. The bit that gave me peak anxiety is he did 5 fucking takes with them and just like, "Nah, can we do it? Can you just, I'll come in and you just need to be a little bit more animated." He's telling these fucking people who who's not paying, who was just trying to relax on a fucking Wednesday, how to do it. And they did it.

Josh: Man, people like to be led in a part of something. 'Cause if I was sitting there, some dude was making, I'd be kind of, this is cool.

Tommy: Yeah, so I couldn't, I took something away from that, which is—

Josh: You now drink beer?

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. It's the curiosity bit. Yeah. It's also great to film at fucking pubs on at like, you know, 3 PM on a Wednesday because there's fuck all people in there. They probably are pretty chill if they're doing it. But I just thought that that was an interesting experiment because the other thing is it's like I would only— I was telling Bri the storey and she said, did you buy them all beers? I was like, nah. She's like, and like, but it's okay. And so, that I said to Jack afterwards, I was like, oh, geez, that was cool that you did that. He said, yeah, you just got to sort of, you got to care less about their time. Like you actually do. You have to accept the fact of, hey, I'm doing this thing and you sort of forget the fact that you're potentially wasting their time because they'll say no. Like they have the ability to say no.

Josh: Yeah. That little video you guys made, I guess the essence of it is like, have the idea and then get to work and see what happens. Oh, let's go to the pub. Let's go there. It's like Casey Neistat. The American YouTuber dude, if you don't know him, he had that deal where his company got bought for whatever amount, $20 million, $25 mil, by CNN. And worked with CNN. And so, his creative team is working within this new construct of a business where they have all these restrictions and processes and they can't just make anything. And he's come out recently talking about how he had to like escape because there was— he was felt so stressed or whatever it was about, you know, having to sort of get these things right and tell these people where he's like—

Tommy: It's a different reality. It's like the equivalent of getting something. It's like you were walking, waking up one day, walking outside and then someone saying, now how much air do you want to breathe today? Because it's a per dollar per litre type. It's not the reality that you're used to. So, all of a sudden you're like, well, hang on, why do I need to, like, I've been doing it this way my whole life. Why do we need— This seems like an unnecessary thing. Maybe that's a terrible analogy. Yeah.

Josh: And so, I guess the point I'm making is like his style is very much get to work and you will figure it out.

Tommy: But there's limitations to that, too. There is, too.

Josh: But I think there is a massive ceiling as far as how far, how high you can reach using that method.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's like talking about clients getting out of the way. It's like, well, if we're the professionals in the video space and we know what works, yeah, then if you just let us go, we'll create something else.

Tommy: I think it's a balance. I think that just like that's other people's crutch, our crutch is our inability to do a long-term planning. Be like, if, if we were told we You need to plan it out. We need the pre-production. You need all of that. That would, I think, be a big struggle. It's like even, you know, my mate Ryan Shelton and doing the video stuff with him. He's come from a more traditional background. He's, you know, worked in TV.

Josh: Everything's shot listed, planned.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Scheduled, timed.

Tommy: So, him and I collaborating, it's like, oh yeah, so we'll launch this project that we're doing in February. Like, fucking great. It's next month. 2019. So, there's this huge— And there's a schedule and it's sort of all planned out. And that's not the right— You know what? That is a good muscle to be able to flex.

Josh: And so, what's— What do you think about it, though? Like in terms of— So, you're saying if you're one, try the other.

Tommy: Yeah, I think that the thing that works with all of these things is the hybrid. It's the zigging and the zagging. It's being able to work. So, It's, um, I was listening to, uh, Matt D'Avella. Uh, he's getting some fucking great, um— This is literally turned into a podcast that just recommends podcasts. Recommends podcasts.

Josh: All it shows really is that you listen to too much.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: You consume too much.

Tommy: I'm consuming too much. But they were talking about, um, the difference between producing short-form content versus long-form content. He'd produce hundreds of little videos and then was like, Fuck, I've made, you know, 200 short videos. I can make a feature-length documentary. And then he gets there, he's like, fuck, it's a different type of storytelling.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Which, you know, I can see on your face, you're sort of like, it's an annoying realization. I think that there is definitely, there's areas that translate, but if you were making 7 feature films a year versus 200 short films, even though you're producing heaps more short films, you'll be able to create, if you were doing the feature films, you'd be able to create better feature films.

Josh: I think the hard bit for people is, like Casey, is when you have these wins. So when you're doing a certain method and winning, then trying the other one—

Tommy: It works.

Josh: Why do the other one if you're winning?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so it's only you do the other one when you either get bored of doing doing it your way and you want to push and, you know, expand your head and your ability, then you go the other way.

Tommy: Well, I think it's about growing. So I think that everything has its ceiling. And for Casey, Casey can produce first-person videos, whether it's capturing his day, an event, subject. He might be able to work okay with one assistant, an editor, but him being able to lead a team to have that produced is a very different thing. It's the difference between being an athlete and being a coach. There are athletes who know how to serve and fucking win Australian Opens. Doesn't mean that they, they have any clue on on how to communicate or how to mentor or to pass that knowledge on. It's a different muscle.

Josh: I mean, but then it's like, so people in the business world that haven't built million-dollar businesses but are offering business advice. Yeah, they've lost a bit of credibility in my eyes. I think in a lot of people's eyes where it's like, stop flogging your product that talks about scaling a business when you've never scaled a business. But I think that's the same, the coach, like if you've served, if you've been the tennis player, the Lleyton Hewitt, who's won a Grand Slam, Australian Open, and then you're coaching as well, doesn't that dude have more credibility in telling you how it is because he's actually embodied and experienced? 'Cause then you're, 'cause you said the opposite, just because you know how to win a Grand Slam doesn't mean you know how to coach.

Tommy: But do you know what I would say? Lleyton Hewitt, if I had to pick between an ath— If I was an athlete and I needed a coach and I had the option between having an athlete who had won 20 Grand Slams, or if I had the option of the coach that helped an athlete win 20 Grand Slams, I'd be choosing the coach because the athlete doesn't necessarily know how to synthesise what they're doing. They're able to do it through an internal process. They're able to work out the exact speed and the ball and all of those fucking sporting shit that you need to know. Doesn't mean that they know how to be able to get the most out of other people. They've worked out how to get the most out of them. And just in that same regard, I think that when it comes to what advice that we listen to, I think that sometimes we can go too fucking blue sky. We read Elon Musk, we read fucking what they do in Disney or Pixar, and that's really good for this like very overarching sort of requirement or understanding. The thing to keep in mind, though, is the real advice that's going to be beneficial is from the person who is 2 steps ahead rather than 100 steps ahead. I would, and it's just like asking for advice about being like doing, being an entertainer or being successful. We've got friends like Jules Lund who did it at a different time. Like his version of doing it is you go on a radio show, you do 15 Minutes of Fame. It's a different fucking time. And while some of those core things remain the same, hustle, ambition, fucking putting in the work remains networking. All of those things are these universal things. But there are the nuances. And I've even said that to mates like Ryan who have Radio Karate, the real Radio Karate, the production company that produces all of, you know, Hamish and Andy's TV type stuff. The next Radio Karate isn't going to look like Radio Karate. It's probably going to look like collect— fucking Collective Noun or whatever, the guys in Queensland doing the fucking great skits on YouTube or stuff like that.

Josh: So, then it's not glossy or it's not as sexy, the dude who hasn't won the 20 Grand Slams and is now a coach versus the coach who has trained people to win Grand Slams. That's not as sexy to sell. It's like the business stuff. It's like you got no chops if you haven't built a fucking business yourself because you really don't know what it is like on the ground. So then, I mean, this— so take it from the sporting world to the business world.

Tommy: Yeah, it's—

Josh: what do you think about that? Because I don't know if it applies.

Tommy: Because what's the example? So, so, um, so what I think—

Josh: what you're saying by Richard Branson versus getting trained by a guy that you don't know his business.

Tommy: Exactly. So, but the difference is—

Josh: He's trained 20 Richard Bransons, which one are you going to go with?

Tommy: So, what I was saying is you, the person who is a few steps ahead of you is in a better position to inform you on those steps than Richard Branson. It's the equivalent of imagine you're taking 1,000 steps. Richard Branson has finished the race, right? He's hit the 1,000 steps.

Josh: You are— 1,000 million billion. Yeah, exactly. He's hit the billion.

Tommy: Exactly. So, he's hit the 1,000 steps. He's done the course, right? You have the option to radio into someone. You're at the 200th step, right? You have the option. You need to find out what the next 50 steps are like. You have the option of asking Richard Branson, who is at the fucking, at the top, the 1,000th.. Or you have the option of someone who's at step 280, what the, what the 50 steps after 200 is like. Richard Branson has done so many other steps that they've all fucking merged into one. And while he will have some fucking great advice around how to do the 1,000 steps, how to do all of them, the mindset that you need, all of those important things. But for that next 50 steps, the best person to ask is the person who who has just fucking done it, because it's going to be in their mind, it's in the conditions. When Richard Branson might have been doing those steps, it was fucking raining. So he would say, make sure you watch out for the slippery steps. Whereas the guy who's just done it, the weather is sunny and shining, it's like, stay hydrated. Which in case it's like, it's only fucking—

Josh: Richard Branson's the stair master and the other bloke's the stair analyst.

Tommy: Does that make sense?

Josh: Yeah, I get it, but I But I still, like, if you relate it now, yeah, your analogy to LinkedIn, we could look on right now and find 50 blokes standing in front of a whiteboard talking about how to 10x your business, and then they've got no chops to speak of. Yeah, they haven't built the—

Tommy: and that's not what I'm talking about—

Josh: business.

Tommy: People are, people are becoming coaches before they've become practitioners.

Josh: There's value in Any of them?

Tommy: No, for the most part, I think that for you to be a coach, having some sort of— being a practitioner first will make you a lot more powerful. So, for instance—

Josh: Does that go against your analogy though?

Tommy: No, it doesn't, because what I'm saying is it's the difference between being a practitioner. So, say for instance, if you want to make it in the world of filmmaking today and you have the option of asking someone who did it in 1975 versus someone that did it in 2012. What you could say is the guy that did it all those years ago has had a much bigger career. He's won Academy Awards and all that sort of thing, but his context isn't relevant to what your context is. You're much better asking the guy in fucking 2012 how he did it. So, the caveat is it's not about like going for the lesser one. It's the one who's done it within the world that we're currently living in.

Josh: Yeah, I get it. I've said to you about, um, thinking whether or not to say this, but it's like Jules Lund. He's been the mentor that has got me to where I am. But there comes a point where you've almost exhausted all of the knowledge in that specific area. And because I live and breathe it now, I'm into this space where he asked me for advice and it's a really cool thing. And I think it's like your mentor now isn't necessarily your mentor in 10 years.

Tommy: And I think you have different types of mentors.

Josh: 100%.

Tommy: And it's that overarching one. So what Jules is amazing at is, is the longer— Jules Lund.

Josh: Did I say Jules Lund?

Tommy: Jules Lund, yeah. He's good at the, the bigger picture type of stuff and he's done it and he's been able to— and there's something to be said about the person who's been mainstream and that's going into the digital world, whereas you speak to someone who's only ever been in the digital world, they can't give you that context. So there is power in being in both, in the zigging and the zagging, in being in the fucking, the corporate world. Like, so asking Jules 10 years ago about like how to fucking work within a business and being an employee doesn't make— He's being super successful, but he wasn't successful doing that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that that's— So, what sometimes happens is people will pitch really high with the types of mentors that they want when the thing is that you can look around you and being like, if you want to create a successful agency, for instance, you don't necessarily need to go to the president of an agency that's got 40 years of experience. Going to the person who has built their agency in the last 5 years within the market context that they're working in is really powerful.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I don't know if that makes sense.

Josh: 100%. I mean, for me, Jules now is a different type of mentor.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: We've got complete different discussions to what it once was.

Tommy: How do you feel about giving advice to people?

Josh: Oh, it depends on what it's for. But I think when you start giving, I think it's like you, you actually start enjoying it because you start realising what you know.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And when you actually articulate what you know, it's like, fuck, I actually put in a lot of work to get to there.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's, and it is nice giving advice, I think, or when someone comes unsolicited and they're saying, hey, can you help me? So you feel like there is a bit of a tap on the ego as well. Cause it's like they're looking at you and with esteem and it's like you appreciate that because you're like, ah, now I'm being recognised for what I'm doing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I think it's like, and I know you've done this and I have too, I'm guilty, is Offering up advice when no one's asked.

Tommy: 100%.

Josh: And that's, I think, where you start playing into those feelings of what I'm describing.

Tommy: And I think it's also people project, like, you know, there's that saying that advice is just things that you're trying to tell yourself. Yeah.

Josh: You've actually said that to me in the same sentence. It's like, maybe I'm giving this advice to myself, but blah, blah, blah.

Tommy: Yeah. I think like prefacing it is is all good. I think that it's— One of the things is I feel like what I'm good at is seeing someone and being able to look at them and seeing what the opportunities are. I think that the big— One of the things that I've thought about a lot is, I don't know who said it, but I read it somewhere where it was like, people don't think the way that you do, and that's fine. Everyone thinks differently. I think that I'd been living my career for a long time thinking that this makes so much fucking sense. Like, you know, like all they need to do is have this Instagram account and there's like all of this, you know, X, Y and Z. But realising that everyone is thinking way differently. Everyone's got different goals.

Josh: Subjective reality. 5 people experiencing 5 different things in the same room.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: You know, like, I'm a bit sweaty, so I'm feeling uncomfortable. I want to get the fuck out of here. You're like, this is the best climate on earth.

Tommy: Yeah, I love this.

Josh: This chair is really comfy. I really like what this guy's saying.

Tommy: It's—

Josh: stick around. I'm going off a bit topic, but it's a funny storey I haven't told you. Yesterday I, um, left here, went to the office.

Tommy: I can't believe you did anything yesterday outside of us doing the fucking podcast.

Josh: I was exhausted after that fucking conversation. It stretches— stretched me. Just my little brain. My little brain.

Tommy: Is it okay?

Josh: So I'm sitting in my office yesterday and I see this kid kind of wandering around. And I work in this space where there's a bunch of different businesses in the area. And so I thought he was just wandering around trying to find something else.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And he walks into my office and I'm like, this kid's young. Who's this? I said, g'day mate, can I help you? He says, hi. Direct? Yeah, yeah, because I like that. I do, because a lot of the time they're not there for me. I'm not being rude. I'm like, hey mate, can I help you?

Tommy: Okay, that was friendly. And the second one, okay, so it was the more friendly version. Okay.

Josh: Hey mate, can I help you out? That became more serious. Anyway, I did that. I communicated to him and he said, yeah, I'm, um, just looking for work experience. And so amazingly, my head— and I think everyone does this— I had like 4 thoughts in the one moment. I was like, is this kid just randomly looking and walking around businesses asking, do you have work experience? He's obviously 15. So he's, this kid's young. He looked a bit older than I thought.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: He looked younger than I thought. And—

Tommy: Wait, he looked younger than you thought?

Josh: I thought he was like 18. Okay, sure.

Tommy: Maybe he was.

Josh: People look different at 18.

Tommy: No, he was 15.

Josh: He was in year 10, just gone into year 10. So I said to him, um, okay, so how have you all in this town here? What are you— yeah, I was kind of— maybe I was a bit abrupt. I wasn't being mean, but I was like, what's going on? How have you come here? Like, I was confused, dude. How often does someone walk in, go, I'm looking for work experience? Yeah, because that's not how it works.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, bro, but it's— I actually respect that more than the fucking emails.

Josh: So I said to him, so have you got here, you know, 'Who do you know?' He said, 'Oh, I know, um, I know Owen.' Did you just make that name up? And I, and I thought, Owen, Owen's the kid that was meant to do work experience for me but broke his leg the week before he came. So it's like, 'Oh, Owen, how do you know Owen?' He's like, 'Oh yeah, I go to school with him.' I was like, 'Ah, so you got your details off Owen.' And I said, uh, 'Where, where are you from?' He said, 'Oh, out Broadmeadows way,' or whatever. And I said, 'Okay, how'd you get here?' He said, oh, mum dropped me off. And I said, so you've just rocked up here? And he said, yeah. I said, good hustle, sit down. And so we had a bit of a chat and he'd literally rocked up out of the blue, walked into my office. I might not have been there. Yeah, his mum dropped him off.

Tommy: Fucking Owen is at home cursing, being like, he was my mentor. That's hilarious.

Josh: So what are you looking to do? He's like, oh, I want to do a bit of editing. I like that stuff. And if I just got an email of him saying, I like editing, I want to do some stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Probably been like, ah, but the fact he rocked up, I appreciated him rocking up. It was a good hustle.

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. You literally got no fucking work done that day. Like yesterday, like another distraction. Robbed my time again. But that's fine.

Josh: And so he wanted me to sign this piece of paper right there in the moment.

Tommy: Really? That's so funny.

Josh: 'Cause he had these pieces of paper in his hand. I said, what's that? What's in your hand?

Tommy: He's like, look, I need to do 20 hours. Just fucking write that I've done it. Sign it. You have to put an amount that you're going to pay them. How much did you say?

Josh: I didn't sign it. So I said to him, I said to him, hang on, so like, this is what we're saying that now, when's your, uh, when's this meant to, when do you, when do you have to do work experience? He said June. And I said, when do you have to submit the form by? March. I said, ah, we've got plenty of time.

Tommy: Yeah, mate, I'm a creative, come back to me 2 days beforehand and we can rush it out.

Josh: I said to him, so here's what we can do, you can, you can send me a digital copy of that form and in a couple of weeks' time. And I gave him my business card. I felt like it was a bit of a test also. It was like, if you're willing to do this and he's done it, you're willing, you should follow me up on an email and send it through and I'll sign it digitally and send it back to you. And he's like, oh, okay, cool. And he was nervous and I appreciated his nervousness, but I also like your fucking assume confidence, aggressive.

Tommy: I like that. But the thing is, you know what, he's a mini Tommy Jacket.

Josh: I would have done that, bro. Rocked up because I was like, this is a better option. He's gonna get to see me in the flesh. And I liked it, dude.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Should I get him on?

Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. Is his, um, I've got to work out the legal stuff around it.

Josh: I think, you know, he's a work experience kid. You pay him a minimum of $50, so you don't—

Tommy: Okay, you'll be fine because you've got— because you're an employee, you have your work cover. You need work cover.

Josh: Yeah, I got work cover.

Tommy: So you got— yeah, you're fine.

Josh: So, I can, yeah, I'll get him on.

Tommy: That'd be sick. So funny. And was his mum like going to do some shopping? She was probably on Smith Street doing the factory outlet.

Josh: 50, 30, 40 minutes away. That's not close. Like Broadmeadow.

Tommy: Literally, I reckon she's gone to the factory outlet. She's at Bonds. In Collingwood. Yeah, in Collingwood. And that's, yeah.

Josh: It's actually gone. Bonds is closed down.

Tommy: No, it's just up the road.

Josh: It moved.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, yeah, yeah. It just moved up near the bank, near Westpac.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Fuck, man, retail struggling. You see so many— where is it? Fitzroy Street. So many businesses.

Tommy: Prahran, I saw, um, uh, our mate Rob Ward from Quad Lock did a post where it was like 4 retail shops next to each other all up for lease.

Josh: It's interesting. What's happening? You know, I feel like having a business where you're waiting for people to walk in the door would be the most anxiety-ridden business for me, having a cafe. Like, I feel anxious walking past cafes that aren't doing well and there's one next door doing well.

Tommy: My guess is that especially in these areas like Collingwood, Fitzroy, Abbotsford, there's a mixture of like retail and like manufacturing type stuff going on or like subleasing. So, they're like, oh, they've got a sick house and they've just got this commercial space at the bottom. So, they're one of the fucking, their hippie partners doing some sort of bead selling. Because, you know, you always see like some dude selling beads and he's got his own store and you're like, mate, that's $70,000 a year in fucking lease. In beads. In beads. You're going to sell them before you get any cash. But then you realise that it's like, okay, they've got, they're actually subleasing, they've got someone living upstairs, out the back they've got 10 artists, you know. So I guess that's the way of, um, doing it. Yeah. But, um, what was the biggest learning of you getting a space?

Josh: Having my own office space?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: That I actually have someone to store shit because my house wouldn't take all the stuff I have. Didn't realise how much stuff I have.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: No, it's— I love it. I love a creative environment that I am comfortable in, that I can just go in and do what I want.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: For me, like, you could— I could work out of cafes, but I think there's a point of productiveness that you'd have of just working from them. And for me, it's like having a, a place that I can just get creative and do what I need to do. It's like a workshop. It's almost like a man space for me.

Tommy: I think, and man cave, the, the lesson for me with mine was off like open plan doesn't fucking give you that, right? It doesn't give you your own space. It feels, even if you're like on the lease and you're doing that, you feel like you're still, you've gotta, you know, be quiet or you need to be wearing headphones or it's like the thing I love about your office and it's something that I'm looking at for when Full Stack Films decides to move, 'cause our lease is up in, you know, 7 months time or whatever, is around that. Small contained space where I can close the door and I can like make a fucking mess creatively. I can set up cameras, I can be noisy, I can have, I can air condition the place. I guess that's what the co-working spaces don't have going for it is it's great socially, it's great to be able to meet other creatives. But at the end of the day, it's also nice to be able to close the door. And just get your head down and work.

Josh: And I think a big learning is people. People are the only thing that will make your business bigger.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Even someone who stumbles across a good product and the product's hot so they can sell millions of dollars worth of it, there's still a point where unless you bring people into the fold, you ain't gonna—

Tommy: You need audience, you need customers. I think that YouTube is providing this new thing, which is What I love about YouTube and I even love about this podcast is we can be doing this from anywhere and it's not going to affect the audience experience. So, I could be filming, you and I could record this right now in Italy and people like wherever you are, if you're in your car, if you're like going to bed listening to this or you're doing some work, you can be doing it anywhere. And that doesn't change depending on where I'm going. And that's the one hard thing with the sort of traditional production, you know, video production work within a local space. So that sort of traditional thing, which is Melbourne video production company servicing the Melbourne area, you are fucking stuck in that one space. How do you feel about geography in your work?

Josh: I've been on your end and your thoughts a lot more. I think the thing that changes is when you have a lot more responsibilities.

Tommy: Yeah, well, you've got it, you've cemented, you've got a kid. So, it's like you naturally think about geography a lot more in settling down. So, you can be a bit of a top dog in Melbourne and say, well, Bodhi's going to go to this school. We've got at least 11 years or whatever the fuck it is, and I can just dominate. I can go on a long-term lease, blah, blah, blah. Versus one of my points of difference, it feels like, is in the agility to say, You know what, like, let's see where all of this stuff is headed.

Josh: I think they're limiting beliefs though, within your head, right? Because I now have the belief of having a studio that I pay monthly rent and my house that I pay monthly rent in Melbourne.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Why can't my business be one that I fly around the world and then come back to this place? It's like you need to have a base and there's something about not maturity, but there's something in the people that commit to something.

Tommy: I think that the problem though that's happening at the moment is very similar to what we were talking about yesterday. It's the having it all type of thing. So, if you're running a business, what I find can sometimes happen is it's like we create these expectations of what a business needs to be. So, a business needs to be, I need to have, I can't work from home, working from home is amateur. I need to have a space where my clients can come. I need this, I need a big server, I need all these, I need this certain camera, I need to be able to—

Josh: You're talking about limiting beliefs, right? Well, because—

Tommy: For instance, they are the beliefs where it's like you're saying, okay, these are some of the things that I think makes up a business. And then as well as that, I think that I should be able, we should be able to travel around and do all that sort of thing.

Josh: Okay, so—

Tommy: And what I'm saying is that Yes, there are components of those things that you could take that might bring you forward. But there's also something to be said where it's like from a business point of view, looking at revenue, like looking at a profit and loss and saying, okay, well, and mate, we talk about this all the time with other agencies where it's like they've got these crazy fucking overheads. So, you've got to spend 6 figures with them before you're in the door. And what—

Josh: don't go too far on the thought though, because when you're bringing all these things into the fold, you're talking about is it limiting to have a business that's geo-located?

Tommy: And so what I'm saying, you can only answer that if it's lifestyle-driven.

Josh: So the thing is, if I have a printing business that requires big machines to be located in a specific area, that's a geo-grounded business.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. If you—

Josh: there's not the one that allows you to do what you like in life, and so what's travel for you?

Tommy: And so what I'm saying is that Sometimes we think, we think about what success looks like and we see the office space and we're seeing that as a very, as a, as an important element in what we do, or that that's going to be the next level of progression. Whereas I think that there's the opportunity within this sort of disruptive space that we're currently in to say, okay, well, what does And that's why, like, my limiting belief, I think, was that I'm a filmmaker, I do video, I don't do photos, right? And the limiting belief— and so some would call it niching, right? So I'm saying, like, I'm drawing a line in the sand. I'm saying I'm getting really good at one thing. I'm going to sell that one thing. But the limiting belief around that was, okay, so when a client asks if they can do photos, I need to outsource it where it's something that I can actually do. So, I think that there's heaps of different ways of doing it.

Josh: But I think the headache you're having, maybe you're not having it, but the confusion is you haven't actually worked a few steps ahead about what it is you want. And if you don't know that and you're worried about becoming the business that someone else has because you see that as the next obvious progression.

Tommy: What I'm— No. So, what I'm saying is, like we spoke yesterday about the people who are buying a house but have ambitions to travel the world. These things can be conflicting and they can hurt. I think it comes from a minimalist mindset, right? Which is, it's not about— there is a limiting factor in you under-committing or under-investing, right? So, it's saying, "I don't think I can make enough money, so I'm not going to buy this camera. I'm not going to have this gear." So, you end up always playing in this sort of scale, right? Small-scale shit. But I think that For me, and I think for you too, you put your filters on, you say, okay, well, what do I want? So if I want to be able to explore and I want to be able to travel and I want to be able to create those stories, there's a number of ways that you can do it. For me at the moment, it's like I want to create like a location, I want to try and be as location agnostic as possible. And what that means is how can I work anywhere doing the things that I love? And I think that for a lot of people, and you also have to think about what is your competitive advantage. So there's young people who would see bigger businesses and they're freelancer and they're saying, okay, well, for me to get those bigger jobs, I'm gonna need this, this, this, and this. And the problem, and there is something to be said in, I'm gonna spend more money on the office, which is then gonna bring in more money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think that sometimes we do that prematurely and it sets in stone a bunch of things so that we can't actually have the lifestyle. So you turn around and you say, hang on, I don't actually wanna be working with the fuck, I don't wanna be managing people and I've just built a business that has 15 employees.

Josh: Mate, it's the, it's, so my friend Craig Harper, he tells a storey about owning 3 gyms, 100 staff, like a bunch of different things going on, making shitload of money, severely unhappy.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Not living in alignment with the person he wants to be. Goes away for 10 days, shuts off from the world, and reassesses what the fuck he actually wants. But it took that stress, anxiety, waking up in the middle of the night writing down all the things he has to do the next day.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Constantly exhausted. It took that for him to then make the shift. And what you're saying is, and the, and the thing about that, I needed to get the offer. And so this is the thing I said to Craig, the office, I said to Craig, does that need to happen?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Because I feel like, think about all these great success storeys that's happened to so many people, the burnout, the reestablishing.

Tommy: Now I travel the world doing it.

Josh: And so yeah, it's like this life's hard because that is sometimes a reality. You need to get the office and realise That's not the fucking thing I should do. That was a waste of money.

Tommy: Absolutely.

Josh: You need to bring on the staff member and your business fall apart to go, that was stupid. Now I've learnt.

Tommy: I think that's a really important sort of distinction is a lot of these things that you need to learn yourself and you have to go through them. You have to go through the pain, you have to go through the learnings. Where do you position buying a house in priority list?

Josh: I think it's super important, but I think what's more important is creating something that allows you to do that. So, Amy, my wife, she's talking a lot about— it's one of her main things that she wants to do. It's something from when she was young. It's something now. She loves home. She loves creating something. It's important to me, but I really don't care.

Tommy: And so, I think some people romanticise these things and forget that is this a practical or an emotional decision? I was watching a video by this Nomad capitalist dude who talks about citizenship in different countries. And he says that what people will do is they want citizenship in another country in regards to for tax purposes or whatever it is. And then they merge up all these other things and they say, okay, so they end up living there and they fucking hate it. Where it's like they mix up the lifestyle, they attach the citizenship with the lifestyle and being there where there's other options where you don't have to live in that place and doing that. And you can forget if you— you know, if you're hell-bent on something, you can sometimes forget. It's like, what do I actually want?

Josh: And I've pushed Amy on that a lot. You just wanting the dream, you wanting the security of a house? Because the security of a house, having a million dollar mortgage and needing to pay $5,000 a month, that's not security.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Security is owning your house outright. But what's going to allow you to own the house outright?

Tommy: But don't you think that we're, we're in a world at the moment And I talk as if that this world hasn't existed prior, but I'm sure it fucking has. We're just only hitting these things now, you know, with the age that we are. But so, people are being sold those dreams under terrible circumstances. So, it's like you can buy a house now and you only need to have like a fucking 5% deposit or whatever, like low amount it is.

Josh: You can have $2,000 and you get the First Home Buyers Grant and you can pay a minimum of $1,700 a month and you own a house in Woop Woop.

Tommy: And is that— And so, what I think happens to that point is people merge these things so that—

Josh: It's preying on the dreamers. It's preying on the, "I want that picket fence." Essentially, it's like that American dream of owning a house. It's that same. I get that. And that's— And I'm— And I think you need it.

Tommy: Because you're not going to fucking die. Like, this to bring up our last episode talking about being a parent and having a kid. Probably changes your mindset on what's important. At the end of the day, I don't need to fucking leave a house to anyone. I'm good. Like, I can— if I die with zero fucking dollars, but I've given to the world, I've lived a great life, that's all that matters. We don't fucking die with our money. And that's not being anti-money. Like, I fucking like money. I like being able to enable it, use that as an enabler. But, you know, I think that there is something to be said with, you know, and there's the cliché around experiences over things. The minimalists say—

Josh: We both could have bought a house with a substantial deposit with the amount of money we spent on travel.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: We could buy a holiday house together with that money.

Tommy: Do you know what? It's a little side note. The minimalists have a saying which is love people and use things, because doing it the other way around doesn't work. So using people and loving things doesn't work. And, um, yeah, I think that there is a movement that's happening at the moment around things. This idea that you're going to buy this thing and it's going to make you happy, and the Australian, you know, the Australian dream of owning your own home. They're all nice things, and I think that there is— there are a bunch of people, and it plays into FOMO as well, right? Because you're like, fuck, look at, look at those people, they're doing all right, they've got a house, I need to get onto this. Like, I feel like it's a, um, comparison. All that sort of stuff is a, is a dangerous game.

Josh: But then that's what you said, it's like bringing it back to yourself and working out what you actually want.

Tommy: Yeah. And what is it you want?

Josh: You're asking me that question now? I mean, I want a house, but I like, I think I want it for security. I want to not— more so though, I want, I want to not have to think about that stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I don't want the stress of where are we going to live and that stuff to me. And I want a business. I like doing, I like creating and creating, meaning creating opportunities for myself and seeing me grow. Like I almost like the pain a bit of struggling through the business.

Tommy: And I was saying that to Bray. Just today, I was like, I purposefully didn't put much in the calendar for January in regards to client stuff and just to do personal stuff. And it's fucking great. It's not having cash flow, I find really accelerating in the sense of being able to creatively go out and start generating leads and talking to people and Finding value and sometimes stepping off the treadmill is the exact thing that you need and reassessing, okay, how much? And I think that some of my hippie sort of fucking outlandish thoughts or, you know, non-status quo or whatever the fuck you would say thoughts are coming from being consuming a bunch of content around nomadic lifestyle, around, you know, podcasts like Zero to Travel, which is like, you know, how to travel the world.. And the thing that they're talking about is it's about minimising your expenses. It's about saying that what are the things that are holding, like the reason that you need to make, you know, $10,000 or $15,000 or whatever it is a month is because that you have $5,000, $6,000 in expenses. But there are like poor people who have fuck-all expenses that can live from, you know, $1,000 a month. So, the realisation is that rather than this, I've constantly had this idea that I just need to make more, make more, make more. Whereas if you actually like plug in a few of the holes of like where you're fucking wasting money, you can actually like travel the world. And if you are making $2,500 a month, you can actually pay for accommodation or you can pay for—

Josh: That's the Barefoot Investor's book. It's analysing what you're doing and where it's going. Yeah, because you don't need $150,000 to eat out a couple of days a week and go on a holiday twice a year. You can do it on a $50,000 salary and it sounds stupid, but there is method to it and that's what it is. It's following this thing and it's the hardest thing. I don't fucking know it. And I, but it's like the baby. Yeah. Like the business that I've got, like the, um, the stresses that I have makes you get pretty fucking clear on it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I am, and I, and it's something, you know, getting your finances in order.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's don't buy that extra coffee.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And it's to a point where it's like, oh, but you could live a lifestyle where you're thinking, yeah, I don't want to have that fucking thing where I don't think about the coffee.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's like, Sometimes there is a period of time where you will have to be that person. And what's pushing you enough? And is the failure enough to push you along and make the decision not to buy that shit or do this thing?

Tommy: You know, I think it's hard because I agree with that. I believe in sort of essentialism and being able to say, okay, well, these are things that are essential. I don't actually need this sort of stuff. It's like eating. I watched an old— I did a YouTube search of Craig Harper when I was posting our podcast with, uh, that you had with Craig, and, uh, I saw this video around like rules around eating, and it's like, you know, I will not eat emotionally, I will not eat unless it's like, you know, giving me value and all that sort of thing, I won't eat for pleasure, which is all really interesting ideas, and I think that bringing, applying that to I will not buy these things, you know, emotionally and stuff like that, you can save a lot of money um, in that regard and doing that.

Josh: I think you could listen to this conversation and almost have paralysis because there's so many thoughts going on here. But it is, it's like, take a big deep breath. This is advice to myself.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But then it's like, all right, get back to life and start applying some of these things. And the worst thing is when I read self-help books and then I listen to people and I think, fuck, how do I apply that all to me right now? Because I need, like, I want it right now.

Tommy: Well, I think tomorrow. I think that the other thing too, which you said probably 6 months ago, is I remember having a conversation and you said, I've actually realised that I've been mistaking your thoughts for mine.

Josh: Yeah, massively. And I, because it's the way you talk.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Because I feel like you were projecting about what you're—

Tommy: Because we're, and that's, it's all projecting, right? It's me saying, it's me consuming the content that I'm consuming in the world that I'm living in and my context and the fact that I don't have a I don't have these responsibilities. And it's the same way that like speaking to our mate like Jez Khan or whatever, you can be like, this is all fucking too, like super spiritual and all that sort of thing. Because he's in a different context. He's thinking about different things. His brain's working differently. And all of our brain, and that it comes down to just like your, my thoughts aren't your thoughts. You don't think the way that I think. And that's okay. And the interesting thing is, that what we're experiencing is we are very similar in some regards. We have this zigzag approach where it's like we are very aligned on other things, but we have these little nuances that are very different and it's identifying them because that's actually what makes us us. Yeah.

Josh: It's take everything with a grain of salt, every piece of advice someone gives you, but apply what you think fits. But I think there's people who are probably more vulnerable to this followers, they're 100% like listening and then parroting or applying it, then feeling absolutely depressed because they haven't realised that that's not them, that's not who they are.

Tommy: I mean, there's so many sheeple. There's so many people who do not like travel, who have huge plans of travelling because they think that that's what they need to do. Right. Oh, God. Yeah. What do you think of that?

Josh: That makes me feel tired.

Tommy: But it's true, isn't it? Travelling's tiring. There's people who it's like, Success is, and the thing is, and we've discussed this, there are people who are fucking atrocious at creating content or talking or being in front of the camera, creating YouTube videos, and they're not doing it because they love it. They're doing it because they think it's what they need to do.

Josh: See everyone else doing it.

Tommy: And that is the last reason to do it because there's not enough fucking willpower or internal energy to be able to sustain a thing that you're not fucking interested in or care about.

Josh: Dude, it's scary to work out what the fuck you actually want.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: That's a scary thing. I struggle writing goals about what I want because so much bullshit comes up in my head. Can't do it. Like, not all things change constantly. And then, yeah. And then you're like, I don't want to stick to something because maybe it's not what I want.

Tommy: There's, I mean, there's no, there's no clear, there's no clear-cut approach to this. Yeah. These types of things.

Josh: But for $59.95, you can buy Josh and Mai's ebook and it gives you the Secret to life.

Tommy: The funny thing is that we're all— everyone's trying to sell fucking answers. That's what marketing seems to be, right? It's like, and that's what the reason I think that we're so sort of consumer-driven is because the answers are in this book or you need this fucking Pilates reformer because it's going to get rid of the pain that you have. And there's also this idea that we need to be fixed. That we're broken, that there's these little things that, that aren't right with us that everyone else has together and that we need to sort it, sort it out. And as soon as you come to the understanding that you don't need to fix shit and you're fucking fine and you just need to find what you love and find the focus and focus on that.

Josh: Tweak life a bit.

Tommy: Yeah, that's the fucking, that's the life. The life isn't trying to find fucking fixes to things because fixes aren't at fucking Bunnings and they're not at IKEA and they're not at like buying a new fucking TV. Because I know heaps of people who are not very interesting and they have big fucking houses and they have like lots, lots of money. But that's not what I consider an interesting life.

Josh: And if that is what you consider an interesting life and you're listening to this, go for it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: If you're in your big house, you gotta assess that shit.

Tommy: Can we come over and swim in your pool?

Josh: Do you own a jet ski? Because I want to ride it.

Tommy: This is our longest fucking episode. We've done over an hour. Can you believe it?

Josh: I'm sweating.

Tommy: Is it too long? Should we, should we go?

Josh: Yeah, we'll definitely taper it back tomorrow. Friday fun one.

Tommy: We said, we said yesterday that we're going to do a short one today. We actually said that because of the long one. But, uh, I don't know, an hour is too fucking long for people to listen to, I think. But, um, have a good one, guys.

Josh: We love you.

Tommy: Bye.