A long uncomfortable discussion

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show, Ep 12.

Josh: It is, uh, what are we, Wednesday? It's Wednesday. It is the 31st of January. This is the last day of the month.

Tommy: This is not a paid sponsor. Um, 7-Eleven was there today and they've got $2 Sandwich Wednesday.

Josh: Oh, they buy it? Every Wednesday.

Tommy: $2 sandwich and sushi. I don't know how much I want to be eating sushi from 7-Eleven.

Josh: I don't— yeah, or sandwiches for that matter.

Tommy: Sandwiches look all right. I've actually eaten one. They're $5 normally.

Josh: I reckon I've probably only had less than half a dozen sandwiches from those like shops like that in my life. It's just so far on my list. Probably Pret. Do you know Pret in the UK?

Tommy: No.

Josh: Pret a Manger or whatever it's fucking called. It's like a— How would you describe it? It's just like a 7-Eleven-y type thing, but it's a bit sort of Like one step above. They do like sandwiches. They do these really nice brownies and shit. Cheap, cheap lunches. And when I was there, like in London for the Olympics, that's all I was like eating was Pret.

Tommy: Pret.

Josh: And there's ones in like New York and shit now.

Tommy: There's a million ingredients on the back of these sandwiches. So, you know, like I think they— Yeah, there's shit in them, but $2, like it's not bad.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Anyway, this is not endorsed.

Josh: Yeah. But also, I don't think sandwiches are as healthy as What people— Don't you think that when we were kids, sandwich was a healthy option?

Tommy: Salad sandwich.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, when it's on white bread, it's bullshit. It's sugar and it depends on what's in it. If it's peanut butter and jelly.

Josh: How did— Being the 31st, how do you remember what— How many days are in a month?

Tommy: I don't. I've got a calendar to do so. There's this thing on your knuckles.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That you can do. But I forget it. I don't— There's like the 30-day years.

Josh: September, April, June, and November. All the rest have 31. And then it's like, except for February that has 28 days on, which is where— that's where it loses me.

Tommy: But it's like me going, what month is the 6th month of the year? I have to go January, February, March, April, May, June. June. Ah. Or like, what's the 4th? What's the 8th? 9th is my birthday. So, it's like these things that I don't store in my head. You learn these little songs which are catchy at school. But it's a good way of learning. Yeah, but then I've never stored them because I still have to go, what month is—

Josh: How do you remember like north, north, south, east, west?

Tommy: Never eat soggy Weet-Bix.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Or there was like never eat—

Tommy: But I still have to go through the never eat soggy Weet-Bix to get to it, which it's like there's some people and maybe you're thinking I'm a dumbass.

Josh: No, I think that makes sense.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: The— I've been thinking about minimalism a bit.. And what it's made me realise is what do you do when you do have shit that you need to get rid of? Are you a good seller of secondhand, like your secondhand shit?

Tommy: It's time consuming. So, before, and I know there's a movement around like hustle, sell your shit, make the $20K.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you can, there's a lot of money you can make from selling your stuff, but you got to be up for Dumb conversations. Use Facebook Marketplace.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Someone asked me, I used it. I said, I can't remember what Amy and I sold. They asked me where St Kilda was. Are you fucking kidding me? You've got Google, you're on the internet. You could easily look at where St Kilda is.

Josh: Where were they coming from?

Tommy: Somewhere in Melbourne.

Josh: What were you selling?

Tommy: Fuck, what did we sell? Oh, I cannot remember. We've sold like chests of drawers on there. Oh, I sold it. Yes, this is what it was, a cabinet. That was a TV cabinet. And someone asked me, where's St Kilda?

Josh: Oh, fuck. Did we talk on air about your storey about your remote, the TV in Sydney and the remote control?

Tommy: Pissed. See, that was selling online. I sold a TV that I got. It was actually a TV I got for my 18th birthday. Still going strong on my 26th birthday. Like a Panasonic? No, it was like a, um—

Josh: Panasonic?

Tommy: No, it was a random brand. I can't—

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, I sold it, and because I was living in Sydney at the time with the TV, I left the remote back in Melbourne. And so here it is up online. This guy comes and buys it, $20 for a working television, 32-inch LCD. And then he's chasing me up for 4 months after, hey mate, just wondering if I could grab the remote.

Josh: Hate that shit. And that's, and that's why that— what— that's what puts me off selling shit because it's like, hang on, there's a, you know, there's the movement around saying no and all that sort of thing. Like, why allow all these people in? Like, it's so in the nitty-gritty, isn't it?

Tommy: That's what you're going to be up for if you're going to sell stuff online.

Josh: And Bree's done it a few times where she's actually just using Airtasker or something, trying to get someone to do a task constantly, like on the text, like, what are you doing? Just had a guy text about the van. He can do it for X amount. Like, it's just ongoing.

Tommy: I was chatting to a windscreen wiper. What's his name?

Josh: At the Lions?

Tommy: Yeah, at the Lions. What do you call him? What would you call that as a profession?

Josh: Fucking... Professional windscreen... Unemployed. Literally, like, it's not there. They're not paying shit to the ATO, that's for sure.

Tommy: He came over to me and he's like, you want? And I was like, nah. And then he squirted some water. And he committed. He's like, I'll do a free one for you. And so he starts wiping, he starts washing, and then he comes around to me and I wind down the window and I said, how are you, mate? Yeah, good, mate. It was hot yesterday. Just talked about the weather as you do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I said, were you out? He said, nah, I didn't, it was too hot. But then I said, oh, I don't have any money, mate. He's like, nah, that's all right. It's all a part of the job. I don't know where I was going with this, but I was thinking—

Josh: Well, did you say it's not a fucking job?

Tommy: First of all, I appreciate anybody who's trying to exchange something for money.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So these guys, girls at the headlight, at the lights, they do, they're actually doing something. So I like rewarding that.

Josh: I mean, versus being, say, having the cardboard and having a sob storey or whatever. I, I saw this stuff.

Tommy: It's on a different league. They're probably mentally a bit more capable if they're at their lights to be doing that. There's a reason you're sitting on a piece of cardboard.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: There's many reasons. But in terms of just people who are trying to make money, they say to themselves, "I can't get a fucking job." But then they'll go and do that. So, it's like a mini entrepreneur where they're doing something.

Josh: Didn't you have a guy in Bondi who you, who did quite well? I feel like there was, I remember you telling me a storey about.

Tommy: No, I told you at Viva Cool City, this ahead of its time documentary show.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That was just an online show. They did a piece on a guy who worked at the headlights, at the lights on Victoria Street.

Josh: Okay. Yeah.

Tommy: $500 in a day he once made.

Josh: Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? I was thinking about that being an interesting experiment, being like, I like the idea of doing shit jobs as a way of getting out of my comfort zone, because I think about the reaction that I have with those, like, those types of people. I try and be as empathetic as possible. But yeah, at the same time, it's like you'll say no and they'll do it anyway.

Tommy: Or the beggars, I mean, they're not really beggars. Yeah, I guess they're beggars in Italy. You'll experience this when you go. They've worked out that people probably just won't give them money. But if you go and steal a bunch of lighters, you can sell the lighters for €1 each. So, they're all trying to sell something, a notepad. A pen, a lighter. And I thought about it, it's like it's a good in. They've worked it out. They've adapted it.

Josh: They've worked out that they need to give some sort of value. Yes. So, there's a value exchange going on.

Tommy: And that's what the guys at Lights are doing.

Josh: And that's what like especially artists or buskers, that's what they're doing. That's just a transaction and saying, I'm going to perform for you and you're going to pay or something like that. But I just, this, I've got so many old cameras and things that I don't use. That I just struggle with letting go of, not because I need it. And this is where I guess I'm going to have to work through from a minimalist point of view, but just because it's too fucking hard to get rid of it.

Tommy: Well, I think there's a time where you throw stuff out or you give it away or you go and not giving it away online because people still ask questions. What happened with that guy?

Josh: Oh, we had it. We did an IKEA. We put an IKEA shelf up for free.. And it was missing a screw. And then he was like following up saying, hey, have you got the screw? And then Bri found the screw and was like, oh yeah, okay. And then trying to fucking organise for it. I'm like, I wouldn't even do this for myself. Like, I wouldn't. Why are we spending so much time on this? But the— I even think about books. Like, I went through a stage where I'm like, you know what? I'm going to get rid of all my books. I don't need books. And Bri—

Tommy: We're looking at Josh's bookshelf right now.

Josh: There'd be 100 books.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Bri was pushing back on it saying like, no, they're nice. It's sort of— They look like aesthetically, aesthetically they look great and they mean something, blah, blah, blah.

Tommy: You've got fuck all in this house. Like if you're thinking about being a minimalist, you'll have nothing in this house after. Because you guys have run a tight ship here. My place, Amy's got so much stuff.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And we're getting rid of it, but it's like you do accumulate stuff.

Josh: I just, I love getting rid of stuff, but it's just the process. I think I just want to get way better. It's just things that are like, say I've got like a camera that I bought, you know, 8 or 9 years ago for $5,500 and being like, I don't really want to give it away. I probably could sell it for like $700, but I also don't want the conversation around like, I don't have the char— I can't find the fucking charger for it.

Tommy: No charger. No. Like, you got to stipulate.

Josh: Yeah. What is eBay? Have you done eBay before?

Tommy: I've never sold on eBay.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It becomes a world, like you need to learn about that stuff.

Josh: Well, it's like I bought all those fucking books. I bought like dozens of the same book and they just still sit at my office because it just put it like— I ask people on social media, hey, do you want a book?

Tommy: Speaking of books, I've got a mate who I recommended the— what's it, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I recommended that he got the audiobook and then his brother bought him the hard copy.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I saw him the other day and he said to me, I said, oh, he said, I listened to, I've been listening to that book and my brother bought it for me. I fucking hate it. And he was so passionate about hating this thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I was thinking, this dude is polarized. Is that right? Yeah, he's polarised on this one thing. He's got so much hate for this one thing.

Josh: Yeah, what was it? For the book.

Tommy: Oh yeah, and for the message in it. And, and so my thinking was just like, fuck, I'm not— I don't have anything that I'm that hatey against. But there's a lot of people that are polarised by topics or things. Is there— have you got anything that you're just like, I don't think I hate?

Josh: I This is what I've always struggled with is I don't necessarily get too political, like nothing, like I feel, and maybe that's my own privilege coming in, but I see— Or a safety mechanism because you know the rabbit hole that you can go down. But I just don't like it. I don't, I feel like I don't know enough to be able to have an informed opinion on these things.

Tommy: So, then that's an awareness that you don't know enough because I don't think these people, the far left, the far right, I don't think they know enough. Yeah. Because there is another side.

Josh: There's so many people fucking talking shit about things. And they just like, yeah, you're taking what you've read and you're regurgitating it, but it's— you're not, um, like, you, you are still the result of what you consume. And you only— you, you don't have infinite amounts of time to consume everything. You haven't had infinite amounts of time to be able to speak to everyone, get everywhere, every perspective, like Be in the White House, do all that sort of stuff. So, like, even though I think Donald Trump is a bit of a— He's a twat. I also think about it, I'm like, I think about like YouTube commenters. I'm like, well, he's fucking done it. And you got like, there is something in that, like everyone can be like, he's fucking dumb. He's this or that. He's president of the United States.

Tommy: The most powerful country in the world.

Josh: It'd be— And so, that's a thing. I mean, I don't think that— I don't necessarily put huge amounts of respect or weight onto people who have money or things like that. I don't think that they're some sort of special breed. But I think that that is the interesting thing. So, like, we can look at Donald Trump and say, okay, well, he's— He's so outrageous. And I'll occasionally, if I find something that's just funny that he's done, I'll post about it. Like him sipping water or something, looking like a goof.

Tommy: Everything other than the role that he's meant to be doing is what you find entertainment in.

Josh: But the thing is that he's there.

Tommy: He's polarising as a character.

Josh: And the system has allowed it, which is fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. What about Australia Day?

Tommy: Australia Day is a good example because I made a video for a company, I think it was only a year ago, that was Australia Day focused. And in the span of 12 months, this year, I thought about me making that video. I was like, I would never do that again. And it's been 12 months, this shift, there's a real focus on—

Josh: Definitely, like, I mean, I'm, I don't know, like from just the little bits of seeing what, like in WA and seeing the, The history, it's so fucked up what happened to the Aboriginal people. And it's, it seems like it's very black and white in some regards, and it's also extremely complex. But I think that they were, you know, what is— What there's no doubting is that there was all this mistreatment and trying to sort of wipe them out and all this fucking gross stuff. And I'm— I feel like. I'm not educated enough to believe anything. Like, so people come out and they would say, no, you shouldn't change the date. Like, I haven't heard a good enough argument to state why the date should remain the same. And the only thing people will say is we've gone too fucking PC. What are we going to do next? And I think that that's like the argument for all these things. It's like, Same-sex marriage, they say that, right? It's like, well, if we fucking let, if we let the gays get married, then we're going to be, people are going to be able to marry their fucking pets, which is just bullshit. But the shift, right? So, I, you know, 5 years ago, change the date, all that sort of thing wasn't even in my mind. Like, Australia Day was a thing to be celebrated. And on Australia Day, I didn't engage in anything. I didn't have a barbecue, didn't sort of, because I just didn't feel like, yeah, I'm not, because I am a supporter of being like fucking doing the right thing and it feels, just feels like the right thing is to, you know, support the move to make things better.

Tommy: So, there's a few things here. From my time in radio, we were encouraged, told, whatever it be, to have a side, to pick a side. Because when there's a conversation, you and I talking, if we're both just up in the air about something, it makes for a pretty bland conversation. There's no—

Josh: But the problem is, right, it forces dumb fucking people to have a side.

Tommy: Exactly. And then there's also the people that don't think about it like that. They're triggered. And they're on that side.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, I've got friends who are in radio who would do breakfast radio or things like that, and they'll be talking about things. I'm like, I've spoken to you. I know you don't care enough about this, so just don't play. And that's a very specific FM space world that you're living in. But I think this is what's great about these types of things where we can sort of talk. And I'm saying, I don't know. And I hope that the things I say aren't offensive because I realise that like I'm only getting one viewpoint. I'm only getting like— I grew up in the southeast suburbs where, you know, Australia Day would have been a celebration. I'm sure the school would have done stuff and it would have been a big thing. But I've got to say, on Australia Day evening when there's the Australia Day celebrations in Sydney and Grant Denyer's, you know, happy Australia Day and doing all that sort of stuff, it did— It did feel a bit odd. I was like, I don't know if I would.

Tommy: How much influence has the media outlets had on that, do you think? Like, if you were to internalise going, you know, the headline of the date needs to change in a newspaper, on TV, is going to get people thinking.

Josh: And I think it hasn't. I haven't consumed, I didn't consume any mainstream media. All mainstream media was pro-Australia Day as far as I was aware. The only, like, Channel 9, and that's even, you know, like, you know, people who I respect who are journalists, you know, and they're doing Instagram storeys about Australia Day and happy Australia Day, everyone. So, maybe we are in a tiny bit of a bubble, but at the same time, the stuff that I'm— We're in Yarra Council, right? And Yarra Council was like the first council to say we are not recognising this this date now. Like, we're not doing— Like, we're changing direction on Australia Day.

Tommy: And so, that's a collective decision for a council.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, there's not an individual behind it, but the people that work there think that this is the best to save face or to show that we're supporting something.

Josh: It's not even saving. It's not— I don't think saving face is the right word because I think that it would I think that implies that you just sort of going, like, I think.

Tommy: But there's no individual behind it. So, it's not one person because there could be 10 people making this decision. 6 people don't think it's worth changing and don't think it's worth talking about that we're changing this thing that we're doing. We're not celebrating. And then the other people, it's more polarising. So, they go with the lower Well, I think that they— I mean, we're speculating here. We don't know.

Josh: Yeah, this is the thing is I think that it comes down to what is the argument for keeping the date? And I can't think of one. I can't think of a reason to say—

Tommy: Exactly. It could have been May 8th.

Josh: I mean, yeah. So, I think that that's a big part of it. But it's interesting because I've always felt like I didn't want to— I saw a Nev from Catfish did a post about sort of, it was like a remembrance sort of thing around the Holocaust. And he was talking, I'm going to do that thing that you were saying never works out, which is trying to reference something, you know, I tried to reference the book because it takes too long and all that sort of thing. But what he was basically saying is if you don't If you don't help minorities, if you don't support, you know, the different things that— So, say the feminist movement that's happening. If you're not supporting all of these different things, one day you'll be the minority and no one will be fucking there. So, his thing was, first they came for the socialists and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me. And I think that, I mean, it's got a selfish connotation, which is like the only reason that we should be supporting any minority is because one day we might be fucked and need some help, which I think is probably the wrong attitude. But yeah, I just think I rarely, if you look at my social media, I don't fucking post anything that's too sort of political. And I love like looking at politics and all that sort of thing, but I don't necessarily— Like what I enjoy is the observation of the— So, for instance, it's like sport. I will— I like— I don't necessarily have a team. I like watching a game and saying, okay, and seeing how that dynamic goes. And that's what I think that I'm— interested in. But people think that that's a cow— like, is that a cowardly thing to do?

Tommy: I think it's the safest route to play is you not having a side.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I'm not saying— but I don't also think that you have to have a side, because if you are honestly feeling the way you do, which is, I don't really have feelings on this, I don't know all the facts, I'd like to know them. But there comes a point where it's like, if you were pushed on something, which one are you?

Josh: Are you a feminist?

Tommy: Which side are you? Well, I think it's, I think that's a polarising question now because no one knows. Am I a new wave feminist? Do I believe in equal rights for women? Fucking oath I do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: My wife, my mum, it's like I've got women close to me. So, of course, like the thought of women years ago not being able to vote. What? How? Like, I'm so glad I wasn't in that time. I feel privileged to be in a time now where so much shift has happened. But then there's this whole feminine movement. Yeah, that if you look into, there's some stuff going on that I don't agree with.

Josh: It's interesting, isn't it? Because yeah, I've always—

Tommy: like, the topic's too big to have an answer like yes or no. Yeah, because it doesn't deserve a yes or no answer. Are you a feminist? Yes or no? Well, you know, it's like saying the gender pay gap. Is it true that women earn 80 cents to the dollar across men. It's a too big of a complex topic.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I think— For me to say that's true or not.

Josh: But I think that what we can do, like, I think always default, like what feminism is about, like from my understanding, being a feminist is about equal rights, is about females being seen as— So, I think that while people might try and polarise, By, you know, through making it about other things or doing other stuff. Like, for instance, I'm a— I see myself 100% as a feminist. And then these little things will happen, say with Aziz Ansari and how all of that stuff played out, where he sort of goes on a date with some— someone, things happen, they get intimate, it's all consensual. And then afterwards, the girl sort of comes out, you know, in an article talking about I didn't really feel comfortable. I was sort of hinting to this or that. And I think that that is a dangerous fucking area that we're playing in, uh, because I think— but I think at the same time we need to, um, it's so difficult because we need to create a safe space for everyone.

Tommy: And, um, but you feel what the energy is even just having this conversation about what happens.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So you, you tiptoeing around, which I'm doing because I don't know all the facts.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And if I was to say I'm not a feminist, imagine that answer to people is—

Josh: I feel like they need an answer now. I think nowadays, like, because the media is making you—

Tommy: because what about the guy that says, I'm not a feminist, and they say, what do you mean? And you say, well, the new wave feminists, I don't agree with what they do, but I agree with equality within men and women.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: On all levels.

Josh: Yeah..

Tommy: But I don't want to use the label as a feminist.

Josh: But so, this— and I think this is the thing, right? It's like, I don't fucking like left and right. Like, I was having a conversation with a really smart lady scientist. She's a— she would count herself as being sort of a left, sort of leftist sort of thing. And to be honest, this is how fucking dumb I am. I didn't even know left and right was it. This is only really, I've only really started to grasp these things at a very basic level in the last like 3 years. And it was like, I couldn't have even told you a year and a half ago. So, I reckon September of 2016, I couldn't have told you the Democrats and Republicans, say, in the US, whether they were right or left or what like what all of this means. I didn't even. I, you know, going back not that far, I thought news was news. And obviously—

Tommy: News was true or news was news?

Josh: No, news was news as in I didn't realise that there was agendas behind it. Fucking all of this. Like, I understood that there was obviously you, when you report, you're, you've got to have a focus and all that sort of thing. But I didn't realise that it was seen so systemically in you have some people watching conservative, right sort of wing and then left wing. So, are you listening? Are you watching Fox News? Are you watching CNN and things like that? All of this stuff, like, I think that the worst thing about this is for people like me being an overthinker, I just don't know where, like—

Tommy: So, maybe you end up in that I'm sort of in the middle, I don't know enough because it's The— you're confused.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I think it's a turbulent time, right? I think that like we even looking at things like North Korea. Yes. You know, there's a horrible regime happening and all of this stuff, but we don't want to see millions of people die from being in a situation, a regime that they can't control. They're stuck in this place. And because we're sort of feeling threatened that we nuke them. I mean, that's a horrendous solution.

Tommy: I think you— It's a pretty safe place to live in where whatever you're polarised by, ask yourself the question, what is the other side's point of view? And just take— And just looking at it, hearing it, because I think if you're looking at left-leaning media or right-leaning media in that fact, what they're saying is their side, but there is also this other discussion. Radio these days, how, how much of a discussion can you have? And it's not a discussion if it's a 3-minute talk break.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because there is another side and some people change their mind in conversations. I could be convinced of something that I'm truly passionate about after a conversation with somebody who's truly passionate about the other side. So it's like we owe it to ourselves to look have that middle ground and going, okay, wait.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Do I need to know a few more things?

Josh: I think the one thing that I've always struggled to understand or, and I reach out to my friends who are in these situations and stuff to better understand. I wonder if as a dad you've been able to sort of, it's fucking pissing down now. It's hitting 11:00 AM here in Melbourne.

Tommy: Thanks weather guy, Josh.

Josh: No worries. Having a kid. Yeah. Right. And the impact that that has on women in the workplace. Yeah. How have you found, how has Amy found that experience? And do you think, one of the things I find interesting is the companies that have really amazing maternity or what's the—

Tommy: The company Amy works for now.

Josh: Great programmes and things like that, right?

Tommy: $5,000 once you have had a baby, they'll give you $5,000. If you've been with them for a year.

Josh: What I find interesting is it's like, I'm not necessarily planning on having kids. And I wonder like how much flexibility, like one thing—

Tommy: What's your question to me?

Josh: So, my question is, are people trying to have it all? Is it okay to say that, you have to pick having a career or being a parent or like, I feel like we're putting so much pressure on people now to have that amazing career, to be able to, like, if you think about it, fuck, people, we saw someone the other day, one of your friends who it's like, they're just settling on a house and they're like, oh, we want to be able to travel the world. It's like we are living in this paradox, whereas people are planning these, they're wanting to be a parent, but they're wanting to work full-time.

Tommy: You need to ask a question to me as a parent because I can give the side of—

Josh: Yeah. So, I mean, what's been your, what's your experience? How has your experience changed? Do you think that it is okay and fair to try and have that career? And because I think that that ties into that sort of gender piece as well, right? Where it's like, how can women develop their careers if they're fucking spending, you know, all of these months online.

Tommy: So, your life completely changes once you've had a kid. And there's a period of maybe 3 months where the mother, in most cases, is the sole person that's there that can keep that kid alive. And if Amy wasn't there and Bodhi was born and I had to do it, there is ways you can feed them. You know, there's plenty of ways and of course you can do it. But I, in Amy's case, she was wiped out. There was no going back to work quickly. She had things come up and it is this complete shift and it would rattle your mindset. And there's also the case of if you were a career-driven woman.

Josh: Because these are priorities, right? We think about like, so I was just talking to you about this earlier. Apparently, I was listening to The Minimalists talk about the word priority and it's only been in the last couple of centuries that the words changed to a plural, priorities. So, priority used to be the first thing, the one thing that you're going to work on. And now we talk about priorities. You right there itching your nuts?

Tommy: I put my hand down my pants. I was reassessing, realigning.

Josh: The— It's all the feminist talks made you— No, but the— Yeah. So, now we're expected to have multiple priorities. So, I guess, you know, is— How is handling that as a parent to have those different priorities? Because I guess that you've— Your priority, I guess, can solely be on Bodhi and the family. And based on that, you need to work hard to be able to do that. But do you have any more thoughts on sort of that parenthood and I think for a lot of women, and it's massive generalization, but it is difficult. Yeah.

Tommy: It is totally diff— it is massively difficult to be that career— like, you see the people that are dedicated to their careers and it's what they focus on. And all of a sudden your priority becomes a child and keeping it alive. And it then depends on your priority as a parent. Where are you placing your time? So for instance, we see, uh, there's some kids, like we've been to these daycares, right. And there's kids that are getting put into daycare at 6 weeks old. And for our situation, Amy and I and little Bodhi, 6 weeks, I could not think of anything worse than putting my kid into daycare at 6 weeks and us going back to doing the thing that we want. Because it would conflict with our priorities, right?

Josh: Yeah. And also I think with this like daycare and like, are we, have we got everything out of whack? Have we got every— Like, why do we have this desire to do that? Like, handball, like it feels like we—

Tommy: What did Amy say to me? She said this morning, you know, there's a lot of things that don't come naturally to me as a mother, changing nappies and that kind of stuff. She's felt like there's a disconnect there. The connection love-wise and caring for somebody that's not her is so natural to her. But she says there's a lot of things and she thought she would be that mother that she was thinking that she's not. She's the best mum, but there's also stuff where she's like, it's not there for me in that way.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Like her not being around Bodhi because he's in daycare, she's a better mum.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, she feels—

Josh: It's really interesting. I think that this is—

Tommy: Recharging this emotional battery.

Josh: I think that you're hitting the nail on the head here, because I think that there's, you know, I've got friends who, You know, start businesses or do something because it's like, if I don't do this, I just have to be the stay-at-home mum and I don't want to be that. And I think that that's a very— It's an interesting realisation that it doesn't feel like it's spoken about enough, maybe.

Tommy: So, to summarise my thoughts, it's like an exercise program. You can't assign one to everybody.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And also, another thing is from not having a kid to having a kid, there is shit that goes on within you that is so— what's the word— natural. So, um, instinctual.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That you don't know what— you don't know that feeling, or you don't know that you even possess that until you have the kid. It's like the woman who thinks she's maternal has a baby. It's the furthest thing from what she thinks she wanted.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And, and there's some aspects of that for Amy. For me, I'd never thought about wanting to change a nappy or doing anything, but when I had a kid, I assume this thing, like I see my dad and I look at him as a dad and I used to think about him working, coming home, playing with us and like, how the fuck did he have that energy?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Dude, you find it. And that's it. That's instinctual. That's internal. It's just a switch that goes on and it might not go on for everybody because everyone's different.

Josh: Where do you think the desire to have a family comes from, from your point of view?

Tommy: I haven't had a desire to have a family. I've never been one to—

Josh: You just wanted to fuck and then it happened, basically. Is that what you're saying?

Tommy: We didn't plan our son.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But he's the best thing that's happened.

Josh: You say that, but it wasn't— You planned it in the sense of it's like, okay, Amy's going to go off contraception.

Tommy: She wasn't on contraception.

Josh: Yeah. That's okay.

Tommy: So she wasn't on the pill.

Josh: Ever.

Tommy: It made her crazy. She would agree with that. She couldn't do it. And I was like, for your head. Please, please don't take that. And she was—

Josh: What happens when you— I mean, this is quite common, right?

Tommy: People go, yeah, so you try a couple of types.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And mate, imagine me, I fucking wouldn't take a pill that's gonna change my head.

Josh: It's a big, um, I mean, I feel like we're way out of our depth talking about fucking women's contraception and all that sort of thing, but it's—

Tommy: I think you're out of your depth when you're saying you expect a woman to take it and I fucking wouldn't take that.

Josh: Yeah, 100%.

Tommy: But if you wouldn't take it yourself, how can you expect?

Josh: Exactly. And I think that's a big— I think from a health point of view, like, there does seem to be a lot of risk. Like, if we could— if there is a— Yeah, I think that it's going to be an interesting— I feel like the next 20, 30 years is going to be maybe an interesting time. Like, when, you know, if males— if there was a contraception that males could take Then I think, um, I wouldn't take it. You wouldn't take it.

Tommy: And then, I mean, what is it doing? The other side is I don't expect the woman to use protection if you don't want that to happen. And I'm—

Josh: So you know the consequence.

Tommy: I know the fucking consequence and I'm so grateful for having a baby and it wasn't the time that we wanted, but whenever, when is the right time for anything?

Josh: Yeah. But the thing is, exactly. There's never a right time for anything. But I think that the thing is that you wear a dinger if you really don't want, like—

Tommy: Are you in grade 3?

Josh: Do you not say dinger? Dinger is like an old school term. Yeah, 7, that's what I mean. No, but it's an old school, like beyond, like I never called it a dinger. Like I use dinger as like a bit, being a bit ironic.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: Like I never said dinger in school. Like dinger was like, I'm guessing what my dad would have called it.

Tommy: But... Big term in school was you're a skinner.

Josh: Skinner.

Tommy: It's a real deep fucking burn.

Josh: A skinner as in someone who doesn't use it?

Tommy: Nah, a little skinner. You're a skinner.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: Small, like skinny penis. I don't know. It was just, I just remember it from primary school. You're such a skinner, says the kid with no broken voice. You're a skinner, ma.

Josh: I think that the, it's, um, yeah, all of this shit's interesting.

Tommy: Uh, there is, if you're becoming a parent, shit's going to change and it's so natural and it is what it is. So if you're not maternal, like I think about me, if I, so you would have had the biggest priority shift ever.

Josh: When you found out or no? Or had you made the— Do you make the priority?

Tommy: You know me, though, it's like I could— I'm not one to dwell on the negative or something. I assume the positive angle, which sometimes is against me because I don't, I don't feel, I don't feel the negatives and go through that, which is— It can be dangerous. So, for me, it was like assuming this new position of, okay, this— Sure, there's a bit of nerves.. But it's like we moved on to the life's going to be different.

Josh: My mate Simon Taylor, and I can see, I can actually say this because he's, there's a promo going at the moment for his comedy show. He had a fling with a chick, then he moved to New York and got a message being like, hey, I'm pregnant and you're the dad. It turns out that he wasn't the dad, but it went along.

Tommy: 100% not the dad.

Josh: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think so. But it turns out. It was a big clusterfuck, but he was the— How much that fucks people is crazy. And he, yeah, he's doing his whole show on it.

Tommy: So, dude, I think about relationships that are that, the flings, or they're just like trying to get together and that happens. It is so much pressure.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It is for a couple like Amy and I, we love each other.

Josh: Well, yeah, you've got that bond like you and Amy, just like Bri and I, like we, you have the, You have the buy-in.

Tommy: It is testing. It is exposing emotionally.

Josh: Where it's like some people like sleep with people just because it's a bit crazy or stuff like that. Like imagine people who sleep with someone just because they're a bit out there and a bit crazy and it ends up like that they're the partner that you're going to live with and have that.

Tommy: Plenty, plenty of, plenty of kids out there.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's okay, but it's like, it's hard. Like if you were wanting to like, okay, I'm going to try and see this through, it's like, Wow. You're up for a lot of challenges. Cause if Amy and I weren't—

Josh: What was the reaction? What was the, is it crying of happiness? Of crying of like, what the fuck?

Tommy: Yeah, we both cried. Amy was, oh, I've got, it's on video. I watched it and it's fucking emotional.

Josh: Are you going to put it? Cause it's Bodhi turns 1 on the 14th of Feb. Yeah.

Tommy: I've—

Josh: Is it 14th?

Tommy: 14th of Feb. Valentine's Day. His middle name's Valentine.

Josh: Yeah. That's cute.

Tommy: Bodhi Valentine. Um, yeah, it's one thing that I, I don't know. I've, I think having a family, I've thought more about releasing personal moments more than I ever have.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Cause they're so special to me and it's like, I love capturing any moment I can. I'm at a point now where I, people might think, oh, you're ruining the moment by capturing the moment because you're probably thinking about capturing the moment. I've got to a point where it's a, extension of my left arm is my camera.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I don't even think, like, I can be in the moment and capture something.

Josh: It's funny how, um, and I guess we should finish up very soon because it's only been 45 minutes, the, um, catching up with Till, whose, uh, little baby James was born the same day, 14th.

Tommy: Oh, he's—

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And, um, this is Josh's mate.

Josh: Yeah. And, uh, Till, like, it's funny because I don't have kids and all that sort of thing, I could go a whole conversation without really making it a thing. And then I was just like, oh, how's James going? Like near the end. And he like, fuck it, I haven't seen someone grab their phone so quickly and be like, oh, look at all these photos. I'm like, man, I've— You've got to remember, you've got to remember that context which people are living in. And it's like, because I enjoy it. It's not like I'm like, fucking, it's super cute. But it's amazing how much it becomes part of your life because you make big decisions about where you're going to live, where you're going to move, how are you going to feed, like all of these things. Are heightened. I remember early, like you and I have our fair amount of biffos. We had a biff, very low level biffos before we came on about coming up with content and stuff like that. But I remember, fuck, I think Amy was pregnant at the time. I think when we were driving, I don't know if you remember, I think we're on like St. George's Road or something. I think we must have been going to one of our DFO shoots. And I remember talking about like trying to understand having a kid. I remember you saying, mate, like, having a kid would be good for you because you wouldn't be so fucking self-absorbed. It would be true. I still agree. I didn't even have a kid then. And what do you think? And has that been—

Tommy: Because it means you just— How many hours am I looking after my son or being a dad to my son of a week?

Josh: But I think that my point around that was, and I'll leave you with this, is it's, um, I wonder with like And this isn't me being fucking high and mighty, but you go like, and it's, these are fucking hard conversations, but you go to the Philippines, you go to all these places and you see all these kids that don't have families or, you know, that could use loving parents or even in Australia, like, fuck, like not even looking outside of our borders, but just within Australia, how many people don't have The loving families and parents. And my— I remember saying at the time, and I just still don't know where I stand with it, where it's like, how many people have kids because they want a mini me? How many people want to see like a little, like seeing what it's like? And that's what my mum's fucking obsessed with, is she's like, you and Bri would have the cutest kid. Like, imagine their eyes and their thing.

Tommy: I remember you saying this, it's like you want that extension of yourself. Here's the thing. If you're fucking thinking like that, if you are consciously aware enough to acknowledge those thoughts in your head, don't fucking have a kid.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But if you're not and you're loving it—

Josh: But isn't that not an okay? Isn't that like primal? Isn't a primal thing that we want to see that you want to spread your fucking genes far and wide?

Tommy: Then I'm— But if you were then to wrap a conscious thought around like, so I want to have a little me, Well, so the thing is that it's, I guess it's the exact same thing as like when—

Josh: Actually, the amazing thing about—

Tommy: I think you've taken it too far in terms of, I don't think people think that consciously around that.

Josh: I don't think it's conscious at all, but I think that it's the, that point on the selfish side of it, which is—

Tommy: You go in being selfish, you'll come out the other side being selfless or you'll be an asshole of a father and leave. Kid.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You've got, cause you can't muscle to be selfish and selfless. You can't do those two things at the same time.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So you've got to pick one or the other. I think, would that be true?

Josh: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Tommy: You can't be negative and positive at the same time. You can't be selfless and selfish at the same time. And instinctually I resort to being selfless in terms of the baby and I'd drop anything for him and You know, what does it do to the dynamic?

Josh: How does it change the dynamic of like a relationship? So when it's you and Amy, it's super dangerous.

Tommy: We've disconnected on a lot of levels and we have to reconnect. And we are aware we're pretty a conscious couple, but we work, we have to work on it. And that is, that's why I think also around the, if you're not in love with your partner before you go into it, it's a challenge and it's scarier. That would scare the shit out of me. So it is, it's like sleep deprivation is the closest thing I've ever felt to being depressed.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Cause I'm not a person who gets depression, but I definitely feel things and tiredness and the lack of sleep along with the pressure of having to fucking keep working and fronting up and building something like a business. It's full on, dude.

Josh: Yeah. And it's all my own doing, but there's all, and there's also there's there's no one way of doing things, right? So what you think is best for Bodhi might be different to what Amy— So it's not as easy as just do the best thing for our kid, because the best thing could be, are we say, is the best thing to send him to private school or public? And then that's the difference between a lot of cash, that sort of thing.

Tommy: I've definitely become a dad. I said to my mate, the one who was polarised by the book, I said to him, the what I said, the, The biggest stress in relationships is money.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Bring a kid into that fold as well. Like when you have a stress of money and a stress of a baby, that's, that's the concoction of a disaster waiting to happen.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because the easier bits fucking falling apart.

Josh: You got no fucking money to see counseling.

Tommy: Oh man. And I, and I think about families with no money, like I'm fortunate enough that I'm driven to chase the, you know, business and do all that, and Amy work. Like, but if you have nothing, man, yeah, I— that fucking hurts my heart. Like, for families that don't have anything.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I've— and I never felt like that before, but it's like something you, you don't truly understand until you're in it. And it's like, what's that empathy?

Josh: You can't— it's the easiest way to build empathy is like fucking being there, right? Um, and, uh Yeah, experiencing it. And there's probably some people who are disconnected from that. And that's where, like, that's what I find really interesting is I don't think— I think I maybe have a lack, like not enough empathy for parents at the moment.

Tommy: And I don't know how you're going to get it unless you become one.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's okay. And I think it's okay too, right? It's the difference between what is it empathy and—

Tommy: Sympathy. Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Empathy is feeling what someone else feels.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And understanding that feeling. And you can't, and it's 100%, you cannot feel. That's what I was saying about my dad. It's like, I now know what he was going through in terms of being—

Josh: Have you gotten closer to your parents, do you think, since you've had a kid, or what's that done?

Tommy: My dad, my dad loves Bodhi and so does my mum. But I, and I, it's nice seeing them. It's like this reward for them that, I don't know. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think—

Josh: Does your brother's got—

Tommy: I've got a close relationship with my family anyway. My bro's got one.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: My middle bro and then my older brother has a dog.

Josh: Within the family, within family dynamics, I feel like with my, like, is there a sense, is there a closer sense of not competition but comparison with family, do you think, around like how are they doing there? Like an expectation of—

Tommy: I haven't live there, but maybe some other families like mine do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But I haven't. Yeah.

Josh: I could see how it could happen. 100%. Yeah. Because I guess there's so many different ways to sort of chop the cheese. That's saying something.

Tommy: Love cheese.

Josh: Fucking love cheese.

Tommy: You prefer to eat cheese than look after your baby.

Josh: I mean, this was a bit of a different, like, just as a quick retrospective, a different episode.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: How do you feel? Like, in all seriousness, how do you feel? Do you like this sort of format? Went fast.

Tommy: We talked a lot. I mean, when you talk about something that's close to you, it's pretty easy to continue.

Josh: Do you think this sort of shit is more like, do you think this is too— the one thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about it is I don't like, it's not an area that I'm playing in that I know. And I feel like I could look ignorant. Maybe.

Tommy: The thing about this podcast is honesty.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I don't, you know, so if you can be honest and share, The thing, it's like the videos that have done well for me, I felt a bit uncomfortable about sharing.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And they're topics that you're exploring and you can put caveats on everything you say to save your ass.

Josh: I think the one caveat I would say is like, there's no judge, like I've got no judgement on it. Like, just like you, even though you—

Tommy: Josh is on the fence on everything. So, don't think he feels a certain way to a minority group.

Josh: But in the sense of like any of this stuff is from trying to understand versus a place of like negative judgement. I just don't actually fucking know. Like if I can't understand, if I can't relate to a certain thing, it's hard for me to build understanding.

Tommy: I think if your heart's in the right place in life, your words can be taken out of context. But when you truly feel something like, that's not me.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Whatever they, whatever they've listened to in that chunk.

Josh: It's the art of not giving a fuck.

Tommy: That they are thinking. They didn't listen on, which gave them context to what I was saying. So.

Josh: And people are just constantly, I think that, I think I said it last ep, I feel like it's the theme of the year. But people will fucking project out their ass and it's... Project out their ass. Project out their ass.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: After a bit of bad talk. Yeah, a bit of spitty bum. But no, thanks, guys. So, I feel like these sorts of conversations allow for people to reach out and give us their thoughts. So, we do have an email address.

Tommy: Have you been polarised by anything we've said?

Josh: Yeah. I mean, have you? Maybe you haven't even gotten this far, but we've got an email address which is hi@ thedailytalkshow.com. And we also have the PO box if you want to send us something, which is PO Box 400, Abbotsford, Victoria 3067. We're on the socials as well, just our names. And on YouTube, Tommy's youtube.com/tommyjackett and I am youtube.com/joshjanson. I hope you have a great Wednesday. On the work. Yeah, this week's nearly lunch.

Tommy: How long's it gone?

Josh: It's gone for 51 minutes.

Tommy: All right, tomorrow won't be this long.

Josh: No, shorter.

Tommy: Thanks, guys.

Josh: Bye.