Authenticity & Integrity With Pete Shepherd

Tommy: It's a very low barrier to get into the Gronk Squad.

Josh: That's crazy! We've committed to do The Daily Talk Show for 10 years.

Tommy: Hi guys!

Peter: Hi guys!

Josh: Put it in the calendar. I'd just like to cheque the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.

Tommy: It is outrageous.

Josh: Come on, let's go. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 967.

Tommy: And we got Pete Sheppard.

Peter: Hey, Tim. Back in the building.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, we're clipping it in.

Tommy: Back in the actual building.

Peter: This is great.

Tommy: Thanks for having me. None of this fake internet stuff.

Josh: I'm just checking my framing.

Tommy: Yeah, you're not bad, mate.

Peter: We're appropriately distanced too, I think.

Tommy: Yes. Yeah. So, this is first guest back in the studio. You're not even a guest.

Josh: You're family.

Peter: I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult.

Josh: You're staying.

Peter: Get out. Why are you here?

Tommy: Mate, get out. I'm serious.

Peter: Fuck off.

Tommy: No, no, no. Great to have you in the building, mate. I always love your energy. And I feel like it's at a time where, if you've listened to the last couple of days, Josh's energy has been a little bit flat and negative. Bit negative, which you're— I've never been around you and been negative.

Peter: We expended a bit of emotional labour earlier in the week explaining what's happening in the business and sharing pretty vulnerably for what, an hour and a half or so?

Josh: It was a long— we weren't even planning on doing it on that, like it We literally said, oh, maybe we should mention it, and then we do a 20-minute rip.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, it just happened 90 minutes later.

Josh: What have you been up to? What's going on?

Peter: Just, you know, working still from home, contemplating the co-working space. We were just talking about this before, whether I need to go back.

Josh: Zooming a lot.

Peter: Still lots of Zoom, still lots of podcasting, still lots of conferences and workshops and speaking and coaching and all that. So much the same, really. I've realised the other day that it's been basically 12 months of us doing this from home. Well, for me, from home.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: And previously I told myself a storey there was no way I could work from home. I tried it for a week about 3 years ago. I was like, I could just work from home. Tried it for a week and I was like, absolutely not, there's no way I could ever do that. And I went to a co-working space. That was almost 4 years ago. And so it's wild to think that we've been doing it. I've been doing it for a year. My partner Tracy's been working for a giant company at home for a year. And I mean, everyone's doing this, so it's, it's, it's crazy.

Tommy: It can be done.

Peter: Yeah, it can be.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, there's It's all about the story, right? Because there's probably some big business that are telling the storey of, "We can't. This is fucked." Yeah. And how much are you listening to your own stories, Peter Shepherd?

Peter: Oh, quite a lot, I think. But I'm always trying to—

Tommy: Like, probably, I mean, we all listen to it. We all tell it. If you're telling yourself a story, you're embodying it. But how much are you stopping and identifying Ah, this is just a storyteller, Peter.

Peter: All the time. Yeah. I think that's why, you know, you practise mindfulness with the Sam Harris app. I do the same thing. But like, often you find, I don't know if you find this, but you'll catch yourself saying something or coming up with an excuse for something like I just did, like, oh, I couldn't possibly have worked from home. And then you go, wait a minute, is that true or is it just a storey I'm telling myself? And in that case, clearly a storey I'm telling myself. And so, the latest one that I'm trying to figure out and trying to unpack for myself is tofu is better than tuna. What's better? What's quicker?

Tommy: That was some pre-show banter.

Josh: Was it quicker?

Peter: To just quickly fry tofu, 4 minutes each side, or tuna. The problem with tuna, I find, firstly the smell, secondly you need a couple of tins and then you've got the tins and it's a whole situation.

Tommy: True.

Josh: Yeah, why do you need a couple of tins?

Peter: Oh, because I eat quite a bit, I'm quite a—

Josh: so you need 2 tins per session to get enough protein.

Peter: TJ, you would know, to get enough protein.

Josh: I know a lot about protein. Sorry, I don't know, it's true. I don't know.

Peter: So I would need— I would need 2 tins. Yeah, it was accurate.

Josh: And so, um, Do you have to watch how much metals or whatever? You know how they say that it's got something in it?

Peter: Yeah, I've heard that about tuna, but I've not—

Tommy: Usually people who eat tuna aren't thinking like that. It's usually the guys that never eat tuna.

Josh: And so, what were you contemplating or was that really what you were going to say?

Peter: No, the contemplation was the co-working space. It's been the storey I now can tell myself is, oh, I can work from home full-time. I think everyone has sort of proven that over the last 12 months. But it's just because you can, does that mean you should? And so, now I'm looking at what's the benefit of going into an office twice a week or 3 times a week or back to full time. And I think everyone's going through this like questioning of what's working and what's not and what benefit is there to all in or half in or— So I'm just trying to get some clarity in that for myself.

Tommy: When do you think it's okay to call out someone else's storey that you're obviously seeing as, you know, it's not working for them? Like if I was to call out Josh or you to call out me, Josh, I mean, you're a coach, so it's like a coach is usually asking questions versus telling advice, but as if you don't wanna—

Peter: Yeah, I think you just don't want to say totally—

Tommy: I think that's bullshit.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Is that a storey you're telling yourself?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Which with the right client, you— I think you could just ask that. Do you think that's a storey you're telling yourself, or is that a storey you're telling yourself? But I think with coaching in particular, it's can I get them to realise that without telling them that? Because it's more powerful, more memorable if they realize, oh, I'm telling myself a storey versus if I tell them. I think that the example I always draw on just for my own sanity and mental model is I used to really like math or maths. Spend too much time with Americans. Math or maths.

Tommy: Or it's not maths, which Josh loves.

Josh: Married at first sight.

Peter: Married at first sight. No, no, the subject at school.

Josh: Yeah. Mathematics. Yeah. It's clearing up. Maths is good though.

Peter: I'm like—

Tommy: Me, tuna and maths. Yeah.

Peter: My tuna and maths. I'm really revealing all my quirks here, aren't I?

Tommy: Tuna and maths and tofu.

Peter: What a catch. And so, I used to enjoy like a really solid algebra equation where you spend all this time trying to figure out next step, next step, next step. And sometimes you spend half a page trying to figure out the answer to this problem and then you get the answer and you flick to the back of the textbook and you look at the answer and you go, oh, yes, I got it right. And it's like quite satisfying versus if someone next to you just said, oh, TJ, the answer is 12. We're like, oh, I mean, thanks, but I didn't learn anything. Nothing's memorable. I didn't practise the process of figuring that out.. And I think coaching is the same. I think the conversation we're having at the moment is the same where it's more empowering to the individual, it's more memorable, it's more helpful if they figure that out themselves, that, oh, I'm telling myself a story.

Josh: Algebra.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Are you using it at all now?

Peter: Only in this metaphor. It's been super useful for this metaphor.

Josh: Because I would love to, like, I did well with algebra, like, at your age. That's the only time, like, I think that's when algebra skills peak. Yeah. I think that was when they maybe introduced it. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, yeah. I got a— There was one test I got 100% with maths. That's outrageous. Yeah.

Peter: Well done.

Josh: Thank you. Never forget. But I can't imagine. So, the idea being, how would you explain algebra to someone? If a kid asks, hey, Pete, what's algebra?

Peter: I guess it's— I mean, it's a mathematical way to solve a problem would be.

Josh: And so, you would have letters and stuff.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: That represent things.

Peter: Solve for x was often what it was.

Josh: Yeah. And so it would be like if x plus y, and so then all you'd have to do, right? Am I getting this right? You just have to work out what x was worth.

Peter: Exactly. So it was often the— there was an equation, but one of the numbers was represented by the letter x, and you had to figure out what that x was. And the way you did that was by following the method and putting this here and dividing here and timesing by that.

Josh: Some brackets involved.

Peter: Brackets were involved for sure.

Tommy: So you were genuinely stimulated by that?

Peter: I love problem solving. Yeah, I really like problem solving.

Tommy: Well, I mean, working out how many pubs you can get to in one night is also a very helpful problem solving.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: But it's interesting because I didn't even know what that was, what algebra was. I didn't do Year 8, but it's—

Josh: You did Year 8.

Tommy: I did Year 8. I'm just being silly.

Josh: Didn't really do anything in Year 8. But you didn't do it.

Tommy: You were there. I did it. You were present.

Peter: I did do it. Yeah, you were present.

Tommy: Present. Love presents. No, but the you understanding that you like that or connecting that to coaching. Is it— what are some other examples of life where you're problem solving that you don't like? Because problems can be fucking annoying. Or is that a story? Do you just see it as like, like, why is a kid stimulated by algebra?

Peter: Yeah. Then I think there's something in figuring it out. I don't know if you see this with Bodhi, but like him figuring out how to walk for the first time or figuring out how to open the fridge for the first time, there's something in like I'm curious about how things work and I want to figure out how they work. And there's a, like, a reward mechanism in our brain that rewards us when we figure that thing out. So, I think it's probably as simple as that. Algebra is one example of it, but really it's being curious enough to try and understand how things work. And then the dopamine hit, we get rewarded for that and say, oh, I want to do that again.

Tommy: God, how many adults are not seeking that because it's painful, right? Problem solving is painful.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: But then they're just avoiding problems.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: Doesn't mean you don't experience problems. It just means that you aren't willing to stimulate your mind in a way that's going to solve them.

Peter: Well, and I wonder too, like, if the way to get better at solving problems is to practise solving problems, I wonder if you avoid them for so long when they come up that it just becomes harder and harder for you to even be able to cope with that because you've not practised because you've avoided—

Tommy: It's like your bicep being stronger than your tricep.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: Your bicep being—

Peter: You got this problem?

Tommy: The procrastination.

Josh: Do you?

Tommy: No, I don't.

Peter: It's great looking biceps.

Tommy: Yeah, but my triceps are stronger, I reckon. Well, because I can do heavy bench.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: But I can't like the—

Peter: Curler?

Tommy: No, I don't curl too much. Chins, like it's all, you know.

Josh: But what about finding problems. Like, one thing that TJ and I have spoken about is that I have found that I'll go from problem to problem.

Peter: Ah yeah, the problem guy.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's like, oh, like, so the thing is you'll get something sorted and then you're like, okay, I've sorted that out. Yeah, now I'm getting— TJ's sipping out of the straw.

Peter: Also, thank you for the 1.2 litre cup.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, the Wendy's cup. Thank you. Uh, yeah, so Yeah, I guess problem solving, like, that's a criticism of men a lot, which is like we want to solve every single problem.

Tommy: Our own, others.

Josh: Yeah, every—

Tommy: Yeah, definitely others.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mainly others.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's more fun, you know, just— You can actually just go home.

Josh: But it's not necessarily— But it's not the best thing. Like, of course, like, trying to solve every problem isn't necessarily your job.

Peter: Not at all. And in fact, it's I think back to that example, it's not helpful to solve other people's problems. I mean, it can be if someone comes to you and says, hey, JJ, could you help me solve this problem or whiteboard some solutions to this problem? That's like a creative brainstorming exercise. That's helpful. But if someone's just sharing something they're working on or something they're struggling with and we just default to problem-solving mode, they might just be like, I don't want your problem solving. I'm just here. I just want to share. Yeah. So there's definitely a danger in it.

Tommy: There's a muscle in act— it's constantly being activated in trying to solve problems. Because there is a version of dropping it in Sam Harris's app, Waking Up. There is a moment where he often says, and I've done this outside of the practice, um, drop everything right now. Yeah. So you drop your big cup. No, but you just— there's nothing to solve in the next 10 minutes. And when you're fucking in a headspace of solving, yeah, and problem, you know, it's liberating.

Peter: How good is it when he says that?

Tommy: Because it is. It's just a moment where you can—

Peter: you're like, oh my God.

Tommy: Yeah, I even find in bed when your mind's racing, when I just like imagine if nothing's an issue.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then you're like, well, there it is. Yeah, it's there. It's there for us to access.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: But we just— the muscle is so— and our biceps are so big.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: In the problem-solving space.

Peter: I love that. And then he often follows it up by saying, and what if this is enough? Yeah, just this. And you sort of like Oh yeah, everything's okay for that, like, for that moment at least, until you start thinking of the, the next thing that you're worried about.

Josh: You're working with a bunch of artists. Yeah, you know, that are in New York. What, what is it like at the moment?

Peter: Pretty brutal. Yeah, I mean, still even 12 months later. So they don't— so theatre artists in particular, they don't have stages to perform on, so they've been innovating and figuring things out for the last 12 months. Many of them have quite geniusly figured out how to leverage their skills, i.e., creativity and empathy and storytelling, to transition into full-time work or into freelancing. So, a lot of them are, you know, making lemonade. But underneath all of that is this like anxiety and kind of existential tension that you can feel, which is like, when are we going to be able to do the thing that we actually want to do?

Josh: So, if they're an actor that's, you know, gotten paid to do a musical or something.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Are they getting paid anything at the moment?

Peter: Overnight, they got taken back to nothing except for their equivalent of JobKeeper, which—

Josh: What is that?

Peter: In comparison to ours was terrible. And then prior to the election, there was a period of time where it had ended and Trump decided not to reinstate it until after the election. And so, there was a period of time where they would literally getting nothing for, for— Yeah. And then they'd lost their entire career.

Josh: Have they moved back to family? Like, are they like, what is it? What does it look like? I can imagine a lot of people losing their like leases because like they can't afford it.

Peter: Yeah. I think most of the friends that I have in New York in this industry have left New York, which is weird. And many of them are living back with their parents, which they'll gladly admit is like weird and uncomfortable and not where they want to be. And, you know, they'd be kind of our age. And yeah, I just often think, wow, imagine if that happened to us. What happened to you? You just couldn't do the thing that you wanted to do, and so you went and lived with your parents, hopped on Zoom with a bunch of other artists, and tried to figure it out together, which they're doing, and they're innovating, and it's incredible. Like, the work that my, my good friend and co-host Jen Waldman is doing is amazing. And I also know it's, it's not necessarily what they want to be doing. They don't want to be living in this world where their industry doesn't exist. So it's It's brutal. Yeah, it's brutal. I imagine that travel, hospitality, those kind of industries, like, it's been a brutal 12 months.

Tommy: Well, New York especially, it's thousands and thousands of dollars a month to live.

Peter: Well, this is the thing. You start doing the maths and you're like, why am I bothering to fly?

Tommy: A little algebra.

Peter: Doing some algebra. This is where algebra comes in, TJ.

Tommy: Super handy.

Peter: Where you solve for X, which is how much I need to live and isolate in a tiny shoebox. Why wouldn't you go home and save some money and live at your parents'?

Josh: Yeah. I mean, even travel, all of those sorts of things completely out of the window.

Peter: Well, that's the weird thing about America, though, is a lot of people were still travelling around.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Well, not a lot. I don't know that for sure.

Josh: Domestically.

Peter: But domestically, like in order to get from New York, for example, to your family home, many of them had to get on a plane. Yeah. And the prospect of getting on a plane for us here in Australia, we just physically haven't been able to do it. So, it's sort of this weird dichotomy or this weird other other world almost where things are worse for them. And domestically, they kind of had more free— have more freedoms than we have had. So, it's—

Tommy: Well, we don't even have— So, you come from a small country town and you go to one of our big cities. It's doable. Maybe not for everybody, but you can go and earn an okay wage and get an okay rental. Whereas those places, okay rental is fucking expensive.

Peter: Outrageous.

Tommy: A shitty rental is expensive and shit.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And then, So, it's like the opportunity was all in the city where we don't have a place like that. There's a lot of opportunities in the big cities.

Peter: Yeah. That's why a lot of those people love going there because it's the place where no one's there to just be stagnant.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Everyone goes there to progress their career or their project or the thing they're working on, which is awesome if that's what you're doing. But if you're just there and no one's doing that, you do come to that point where you're like, what's the point in this? Why are we paying for this?

Josh: And so, then on that ambition, there's obviously a lot of ambition. If you're going to go to New York City and give it a crack, you need to be really ambitious.

Peter: Totally.

Josh: What have you noticed about ambitious people during this time? Are there people who do a bunch of things, and but what's the opposite? Is there anyone that's like, nah, I'm fucking done?

Peter: Totally. I think I've observed some take that ambition and just put it somewhere else. So Jen told— turned her entire business into a virtual studio where she is now expanding her audience to be helping people, artists from right around the world, as opposed to just those in New York City. So her ambition just changed direction slightly. But then you get some that are like, well, I'm out, I'm tapping out, I'm just going to wait 12 months. Some of them have either just gone back home and are living with their parents and are maybe doing some freelancing on the side. Others have just gone, I'll just take a 12-month pause and go and live in a different state and work a full-time job. And they're just a you know, working in an office and have like entirely tapped out of that industry for now. But I suspect if and when it comes back, they'll start to re-engage with it.

Josh: So who's the happiest out of those sort of lots? Have you noticed any sort of—

Tommy: What he's fishing for is if Josh taps out, is he going to be real happy?

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: I don't think there's a clear answer either way. I think I've witnessed people that have flipped their ambition get so overwhelmed by the fact that they've had to flip their ambition. And like, why do I have to do this to just do the thing I want to do? And like, get so overwhelmed and burnt out. And I've witnessed people who, uh, back in— they found, oh, corporate's kind of interesting for a few months, and now they're like, oh my God, like, I'm a creative person, I do not want to be in corporate. And then, you know, borderline miserable. So it's— yeah, there's no— I don't think there's any real winner.

Tommy: When the going gets tough, tough get going. My mum used to say that.

Josh: Did she?

Tommy: But I was like, Mum, the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Josh: That's a story, Mum.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: No, it's a convenient story.

Tommy: It is. If you've got something hard you're facing, that's when you ramp up.

Peter: Take action.

Tommy: Yeah. I don't think it's necessarily true because when the going gets tough, it can also be horrible and you don't like that.

Josh: Doesn't roll off the tongue.

Tommy: Not even.

Josh: When the going gets tough, it can get very, very horrible.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And you just want to quit. Yeah, you know, but that's— and so what are the storeys of the people who have switched it up? Like, what are you identifying? What is the— what's the— because we do storeys to make ourselves feel comfortable or get through tough stuff. What is, um, the storey that is getting people through, do you think?

Peter: I think the, like, short-term experiment storey has been very common and very helpful, is, okay, I'm going to try this on for 12 months, or now maybe 18 months, and frame that as an experiment for myself, learn a bit about the corporate world, maybe save some money because I'm getting a full-time salary, and, and kind of just frame it as an experiment. That's been probably the most helpful and productive storey I've seen. But even within that, you still have moments, of course, where you're like, well, I'm sick of this experiment, this experiment sucks.

Josh: So what does future thinking look like? So I can imagine with coaching, people are talking about their ambitions, what they're going to do next, where they're wanting to head. How do you goal set for a world where we don't know what the future necessarily looks like?

Peter: What's a great question. Super tricky. I think the most important part of goal setting is to accept the given circumstances, accept our reality, and our reality at the moment is we don't know. So, it's like this weird non-answer to your question, which is you have to set a goal or set goals with the acknowledgement that you can't necessarily be sure if they're even possible. So it's like, I don't know if that's—

Josh: So what are your goals? Because when we, you know, a year or so ago, uh, you were talking about, you know, you had your TEDx. Yeah, talk.

Peter: Yeah, I was going to New York for 5 weeks, remember that?

Josh: That's right.

Tommy: Oh, you had it booked in and everything.

Josh: And so like, there's huge amounts of change in that regard, even the idea of doing, you know, speaking events. What does a goal look like for you in this present moment?

Peter: I think I try and frame goals more through the lens of something that is more of a process or a practise or unaffected by the environment. So my goal really at the moment is to do meaningful work with interesting people, which is vague enough and not reliant enough on an environmental circumstance or of coronavirus that I think I could be able to do that regardless of what happens. And that I've, I've found personally quite helpful. So for me, meaningful work with interesting people at the moment, that looks like coaching and teaching and speaking and podcasting and talking to you guys. But in a year's time, if none of that's possible, then I have to be able to hopefully figure out what that means for me in that moment. So it gives me a little bit of an out, which I actually think is a good thing because I'm not— my identity isn't caught up in coaching. My identity isn't caught up in podcasting or speaking or all— it's sort of like my identity is to try and do meaningful work with interesting people, and that at the moment looks like these things.

Josh: What do you do when you wake up and you don't feel good?

Peter: I try and go for a— I think, when in doubt, get fresh air has been something I've written down a few times in the last few weeks, in the last few months.

Josh: And is that instinctive? Like, so when you're feeling that way, do you want to go outside?

Peter: Oh, no. No. I just know— I try and remember that I'll feel better as a result of it, which is sometimes true, but sometimes I just feel crap. Like, I'm a human being like the rest of us. Some days you just don't feel good. And My mum always used the word melancholy growing up. I really quite like that word where some days I just have a melancholy day and go back to problem solving. Usually what I try and do is like, okay, I have to solve this problem. I feel myself being melancholy. I need to go for a walk. I need to go for a swim. I need to get fresh air. And then often it'll make it to lunchtime or whatever, and I don't feel that much better. And I'm like, you know what, maybe today is just a melancholy day. Maybe that's just what today is.

Josh: And so, do you then communicate that to the people around you? So, are you aware that if you're having— So, I feel like sometimes I come at it with it like, I've got a sh— I'm not feeling well. So, I'm going, but I'm— So, I need to add an extra 10% of positive energy to every interaction just to maybe have some sort of normal. But then there's the other one, which is like, there's been the last couple of days, which is like, I'm not in a good mood. And so, I'm going to fuck everyone's day.

Tommy: What a monster.

Peter: What a monster. No, I think so.

Tommy: Which one are you doing though? No, I don't think you do.

Josh: I think, I think the— I, I try to do the 10%, but I, I see the, I see the appeal. I see the appeal in— I, I see looking at the negative in everything. So just seeing the— and so it's, it's maybe not even It's not being a— like, yeah, I should clarify because there are fuckwits that actually live their life just doing that and not being aware and all that. So yeah, but there's an element which is like, I think, like talking to Bray, I'll go to the extreme end of like, I'm done, I'm fucked. Like, I just like, I feel like I need to get out the doomsday. Like, not even that there's truth to everything. Yeah, but it's just like, oh, what happened if I go really, really negative? Yeah, what is every— like, I need to be lifted up. Yeah, so maybe if I go just say everything that's on my mind, then there can be a good solution.

Peter: I think, like, personally, I would confide in certain people. I've done this with you when you and I walk. I might just say, I'm feeling like shit today. I'll happily have that conversation with you. I'll happily talk to Tracey, my partner, about how I'm feeling a bit melancholy today, and we might talk it out a little bit. The line I draw for me is in client work, they don't need to know. Is that's how I've approached it, is I think that, you know, Seth Godin talks really interestingly about the distinction between authenticity and integrity. And, and as a client that's paying you good money, asking you to be authentic in that moment, to be like, I feel like shit, I'm not really sure I want to coach you today— probably not. They want you to be consistent and act with integrity with the relationship that you have. So for me, I'm, I'm pretty good at being able to park it for the client call and the client interaction. And the things that I have to do. Or I might even try and move some of the meetings, recognising I'm not in a great headspace. I'll try and push them back and then confide in the people that I'm close enough to where it doesn't necessarily impact the work or the relationship. So, and so you are off to my punching bag, Josh.

Josh: I'm happy to be, um, it's an honor. The— but so on that, Seth, you know, using that example, talks about the authentic pilot. The, uh, you don't want a pilot to feel like, I don't want to fly the plane today, and that they fucking—

Peter: well, he can feel like like that, but he doesn't need to authentically share that.

Josh: Exactly.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: So, uh, but then this is where I think it's a little bit different, like with the podcast. And this is, I think, what I— this is what the struggle— I know that when we're on a client shoot, right, you can get— I'm showing a certain, like, I've, you know, you're acting as if you're acting as if you are the director. No, like, that's one thing I've worked out is everyone has their own storey around, you know, their own insecurities about that, you know, how they do things. But, you know, we are all acting as these different things in the context of the podcast. I don't think it is our job to not reveal that. So for instance, that chat that we had on Monday, yeah, we wouldn't have had within the context of a client, of a client. Yeah. And so this is the fucked up thing too. We have clients that listen to the podcast.

Peter: Super.

Josh: And so I'm very confused.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Coach him through it, please. Can you give him a bit of coaching?

Peter: I mean, it's a really unique—

Josh: Are you cold, TJ? Your fucking posture's pissing me off.

Peter: No, he's got like his biceps and his triceps. Look at him.

Tommy: I said that in another episode this week.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Posture isn't always a sign of—

Josh: You might just enjoy it.

Tommy: I actually am really comfy right now.

Peter: Okay.

Tommy: I've got my arms crossed.

Josh: It's nice. Okay.

Peter: You look pretty content.

Tommy: Yeah, mate, I've just got a good elbow lean and I like listening to Pete's voice and your problems.

Peter: Switch myself, I'll bring you down.

Tommy: Coach him a bit on that.

Peter: Well, no, I think that—

Josh: I mean, I love this.

Tommy: I love a big cup over here.

Peter: Saying to someone, Tommy, coach someone on like that is like, you know, saying to someone, can you be funny?

Josh: Yeah, it's like, oh my gosh, what?

Tommy: If you could, I would ask. Exactly.

Peter: Let me see if it comes out naturally.

Josh: Why can't you be funny?

Tommy: Funny because he's the algebra guy.

Peter: That's funny though.

Josh: That's funny. We could actually— yeah, the algebra guy, that could be a new nickname.

Peter: The sad thing is I'm sure there's people listening that are far better at algebra than me. I just had a pretty rudimentary understanding of it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: So you're— I think your dilemma is a really real and interesting one, which is what happens when who you are in the podcast requires a level of sharing the shit, sharing the hard part, sharing the melancholy. Whereas in the client relationships, that built into that agreement is that you show up in a certain way as the director. And so it doesn't require you to share that necessarily. However, the commitment you've made to the audience and each other to do a podcast every single day and to replicate from what you've told me, and this is why I love it, to replicate almost a friendship and the conversations you have as friends trying to figure stuff out, built into that is the humanity of when you have a shit day. So it's almost like, yeah, it's consistent for you in this environment to share that, whereas in a client circumstance it doesn't quite fit the context.

Tommy: Yeah, but maybe some of the confusion is, is it appropriate? Or some of the questions around why you even said that.

Josh: Is, you know, or like, I guess reality stars had this issue, which it like, it seems like it's sort of changed now where I feel like in the early 2000s it was reality stars feeling like they're, you know, showing everything. And then social media came around and said, oh, you think that's showing everything here? Like, we'll just give everyone the ability to livestream everything. Yeah, but now reality shows have become so ridiculous in their style. Yeah, they're like edited together in such a way that you're not like the feedback from the stars or, you know, the talent within the reality show is, well, this isn't reality. So how is my— how am I going to be represented from a character perspective?

Peter: Yeah, I think there's like an interesting thing of the— it's almost like the Josh the podcaster is probably different to Josh the director, who is, I still think, probably different to Josh who walks with Pete. I think there are probably things that we talk about that you wouldn't necessarily bring on the podcast, but that's not you being inauthentic. That's you just— It's almost like recognising the context. What am I— What's consistent for me to share? And I think the business, the podcast you did the other day was amazing.

Josh: Did you wince, though? Did you have moments of like, I wouldn't have said that?

Peter: No, I actually had moments of I respect and admire your ability to articulate that out loud. Knowing it's going to be heard by many others. I have no doubt those conversations are being had between you two. Nah, didn't think it was the first time.

Tommy: Yeah, now that you say it like that, fuck.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I thought that when people listened— yeah, yeah, I thought the loan was 10, not 20.

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And we have paid it back, if you're wondering about paying back my parents.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. And based on that, are you saying that to your parents?

Josh: Like, when are we getting that cash? No, we transferred it on Monday.

Tommy: We did it.

Peter: But it takes a bit to admit that. I think they're Plenty of listeners out there that have probably been through a version of that of, oh man, maybe I have to go back home and live with my parents, like the people we've been talking about. Or maybe I have to take a loan off my parents. Now, wouldn't tell anyone.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: No, definitely wouldn't tell anyone. The bit for us, I think, is like people's storeys around what it means to be reckless. And so, for us, like you listen to Elon Musk, well, I was his mate telling the story. What's his name?

Josh: Jason Calacanis.

Tommy: Jason Calacanis. Best mates with Elon Musk, have been for many, many years before he was the famous Elon Musk. They used to go out together and Jason would get recognized. Who's this guy?

Peter: He's the This Week in Startups guy.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a real—

Tommy: He tells this amazing storey about Tesla about to go under, like, and he's like, man, Elon, I heard that it's like a couple of weeks of payroll you've got left. It's like, nah, it's like a couple of days. Yeah. Like, that's reckless for a publicly listed company. Of that scale. And so that's where I—

Peter: Did he share that publicly or just to Jason?

Tommy: That's public. It's a public story. He has gone on to say, because it was right at the moment of releasing the Type S, I think it was, or—

Josh: Yeah, I think the stock, it was 2008, like it was, you know, financial crisis. Yeah, the stock was getting shorted.

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And they said 5 weeks, they were saying, you know, 5 weeks runway. He's like, it's actually 2 weeks. But where the storey is really interesting is they're talking about the Model S, saw clay versions of it.

Tommy: Life-size clay version of the Type S.

Josh: And on Elon's BlackBerry and Jason Calacanis said, oh, you know, do you need, do you need some money? Like, like I can probably give you $2 mil, but that's really like the max. And it was only going to extend the runway for an extra couple of days.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: He said, nah, it's all fine. Jason goes home, says to his wife, this is what's happening. And he had asked Elon, how much do you think the Model S will cost? He said, I think I can do it for $50 grand. He's like, if you can do it for $50 grand, you know, you will change the game.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Anyway, so Jason gets his checkbook, writes out a $50,000 check, does another one, sends it to Tesla.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: A few weeks later, gets cashed, the check. And when the Model S came out, he gets an email notification saying, you are order number 000001.

Peter: Wow.

Josh: Which is— that's cool.

Tommy: And he's got a much cooler storey than any of ours. He's got a number 1 in his garage. But then Elon has massively turned it around. But I think that's the top. That's talking about the richest, one of the richest guys in the world. But then, so that is ultimately reckless, like, yeah, of a company that size getting so low.

Josh: Well, I think the other thing too is we we put entrepreneurs on pedestals, we do all of this sort of stuff, but then for some reason we have different standards around the friends and family. So if, if a friend or family member did something, an entrepreneur, it would be, you know, you would be pushed down and said, you know, you're reckless. An entrepreneur doesn't— it's exciting and innovative and all of those things.

Peter: I've had this conversation with so many people in the last few weeks. Of I've been asked, you know, by some of these people that we've talked about that have lost their jobs and they're trying to freelance, and they've asked me, how do you think about it? How do you go about it? Things for you seem to— like, you seem to have a really good balance of it. I'm like, oh, it's like, it's really hard. This is not— I'm not coasting at all. Like, I've borrowed money before. Like, this is not something that is super safe, super secure, super easy. Yes, I do some work with Seth Godin and his team, and yes, I have a bunch of clients in America, But there are months and weeks and days where I'm like, what the— what am I doing? None of this works. None of this makes any sense.

Josh: And that's what I get into with Bree. Like, that's the— I need to in those moments be able to say, and she's seen it enough times that she's like, ah, you don't mean that. Like, I fucking do this time.

Peter: I feel like we've had this conversation.

Josh: Yeah, it's just like, and you need to do it because if like, for me, that's the coping mechanism.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: So, for me, how I operate is break everything down and then rebuild it in my head with my own.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: So by breaking it down and rebuilding my head, I need to make the decision right then and there. So, so for instance, think about if you feel like feeling shit on a, on a day, right? The reason I feel shit is because I don't feel like I'm in control of the situation.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And the reason I don't feel like in control is not because other people are controlling me It's because I've made decisions previous that I'm not happy about. Yeah. And so, what I've worked out, I think, is that what I need to do is make the opposite decision and say, break it all down, say it out loud, and then say, okay, I'm going to choose to do this. I'm going to choose to do that. And, and so, everyone's fine.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: It's all good. Yeah. But you build it back up to a point where I'm like doing it. The exact same thing, but I'm now doing it within my terms, right?

Peter: Well, I mean, that's why people go to therapists. That's why people hire coaches. That's why people have support networks like you and I talk about this sort of stuff. It's, it's so underrated to say this stuff out loud. Yeah, even in a confined, like, private setting. And again, what I admired about that podcast you guys did was not only did you say it out loud to one another, but you said it so that other people could hear and learn and benefit from that. That this is not— it's not, it's not easy at all. It would be easier for us to all go and work in a corporate job and get a paycheck and superannuation and not have to worry about paying ourselves that. But that's not the path that we chose. And you're right, I think we totally put entrepreneurs and freelancers on pedestals. Think, wow, that's such an easy lifestyle. You can take a Friday afternoon off. I wish I could do that. Yeah, well, the sacrifice of that is, yeah, I'm going to work all day Saturday because it's my business, or I'm not going to have annual leave for 4 years because I don't feel like I've earned it because it's my business. Like, it's, it's hard.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, sick days.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Do you take those? I don't really think, no. Like, but you just, the funny thing is when you have a business, you just, when you feel sick, you say, I'm not sick. Like, I'm not sick enough to, like the thing that—

Tommy: You get sick Friday night and recover by Monday morning.

Josh: And that's the whole thing. It's like, I—

Tommy: It's happened so many times.

Peter: So true.

Josh: Like, I don't think there's been times where TJ and I have been sick enough to say, oh no, we can't, can't work.

Tommy: Well, because you can't just say I'm sick. Therefore, I can forget about it all.

Josh: It still sits with you.

Peter: In fact, you feel worse because you're sitting at home feeling sick and you're just thinking about it and you're thinking about it and thinking about it.

Tommy: It's not that nothing's removed.

Josh: It's not. It's because I remember a time where it's like if you're working for someone, I mean, there's even job, like certain jobs where you still, like radio was always that for me, which like you couldn't take a sick day because people were, you knew that you fucked everything for everyone, right?

Peter: Like it was a, it was a domino effect.

Josh: Yeah. It's just.

Tommy: Jules Land Effect.

Josh: Yeah, you just couldn't do it. But even, um, uh, today Toni announced that she was stopping doing her show for a while.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And that happened organically through a conversation that we had before recording it where she's like, fucking burnt out. And working in radio, it is that thing of like, it doesn't— like, the expectation is that you're working on the weekends and you're doing stuff and you're doing these big Like, I think we have a bit of balance here around that. Like, we're really good at like, not— if we were doing something on the weekend, there's time in lieu, there's all those sorts of things. Whereas you work in radio, that doesn't exist. Yeah, you do, you know, you do your weekend like you work on the weekends.

Tommy: And one in my head, what I say is if I'm not feeling well and I'd say, fuck, if I was working for someone, I'd take today off.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then I just go, then I have to do the day. But it makes me feel a bit better thinking that I definitely phoned it in today. Yeah, yeah, absolutely not.

Peter: But it's a choice. Yeah, we chose, we chose.

Tommy: Exactly, exactly. Ah, you feeling hydrated?

Peter: I am. I think I've— it feels like I've drank a liter, but I've— looks like I've only drank about 100ml.

Josh: It's great. It's a, it's a really—

Peter: you get through one of these per episode. Like, it's a lot of water.

Tommy: That's a good idea.

Josh: Yeah. Now, well, I'm definitely— I'm probably having 3 to 4 a day. Uh, so yeah, that's at least 3 to 4 litres a day, which is very good. I, I don't know, do you have reflux at all?

Peter: Oh, acid reflux? Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: So I, I get indigestion. Is that the same thing? Yeah, sometimes, where I'll wake up in the middle of the night with heartburn.

Josh: Do you think you've got a bigger oesophagus than the average person?

Peter: I don't know. I have no idea. How do I find that out?

Josh: I don't know. I just feel like it. Have you got a big torso?

Peter: I'm pretty tall, yeah.

Josh: Yeah, but is it in the torso or the legs?

Peter: I think it might be in the legs. I have pretty long femurs, I've been told.

Josh: Femurs, what are they?

Peter: Femurs being legs.

Tommy: Thigh bone.

Peter: A leg bone. A thigh bone. Yeah.

Josh: Mate, you're very poetic between the melancholy and the fucking femurs. I mean, the melancholy thing is funny. Yeah, no, but the melancholy thing, if you said to me, I'm feeling a bit melancholy, I'll say, oh yeah. Are you, baby boy?

Peter: Are you a bit melancholy? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: What is melancholy?

Peter: Melancholy. Sort of like flat, sad, emo.

Tommy: It's sort of like— Yeah, no, I know. I know.

Peter: When I think of it, I think like black and white, you know, like black and white, a bit dull, a bit grey, a bit sad, a bit flat, a bit low.

Tommy: No, yeah, I get the meaning, but I'm still just the word.

Josh: It's a great word. Funny word, melancholy. I think it's very poetic. It feels like origins.

Peter: Yeah, my mum is like very good with words. She's quite a guru. English teacher. English language. Yeah, she was an English teacher. So, I grew up with these words in my head that I I really like.

Josh: Your dad's a maths teacher?

Peter: He's a maths teacher. So, shout out to my dad. Maths and English.

Tommy: Chubby over algebra. It's in the genes.

Peter: Yeah, it was.

Josh: It's in the genes. It is in the genes. And so, like, what are you excited about at the moment? Like, what do you actually wake up and get pumped about?

Peter: In this moment, I'm excited about this crazy notion that Tracey and I are going to be away for 5 days. From Saturday till Thursday, we're going camping at Mallacoota.

Josh: Where is Mallacoota?

Peter: Pending anything changing in the next 4 days.

Tommy: Mallacoota had some fires.

Peter: Mallacoota is right on the east coast of Victoria.

Tommy: It's beautiful.

Peter: Yeah, it's meant to be incredible. I've never been. Tracey used to go there every year for a family holiday. So, we've booked a campsite for 5 nights. Nice. Toilets. Camping. I'm sure there's toilets.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: And swim, camp. I'll take my laptop, but the plan is to not work. Yeah. And that feels like such a novelty.

Josh: Bringing like a battery for phone charging or that has power?

Peter: I think there's power. Well, Tracey's mum and stepdad have got a house, like an Airbnb they're renting nearby.

Josh: Okay.

Peter: Which is great. So, we're in a campsite, but we can walk and use power and shower and all that sort of stuff.

Josh: Oh, great.

Peter: That's nice. That was a good rhyme, power and shower.

Josh: Sounds like a Triple M special, doesn't it?

Peter: The Power and Shower.

Josh: The Power and Shower. It's your news in under 4 minutes. Power and shower.

Peter: Jump in the shower. It's an hour of power. Yeah, something like that.

Tommy: We believe in 4-minute showers here at Triple M.

Peter: One thing, yeah, I'm excited about that.

Josh: One thing the radio stations are doing now is they're putting the podcasts up as the shows are going. So, I'm subscribed to Marty Sheargold on Triple M. And by 6:30 in the morning, they've already uploaded, like they start the show at 6, they've already uploaded their first segment that's like the top news story.

Peter: So, they're recording 20 minutes behind us?

Josh: No, no. So, they're— Nah, they're just like, I guess, I don't know how they— I guess if it's a 5-minute bit, the very first talk break or whatever within the show, they're just cutting it up and bringing in. I was just impressed. And I've noticed that a bunch of shows are doing that now.

Peter: That's outrageous.

Josh: Yeah. What's your consumption like? What are you listening to? Are you on the audiobook or podcast realm at the moment.

Peter: Yeah. So, you're right. I oscillate between the two depending on what mood I'm in. There's another good word for you. Oscillate.

Josh: I do like oscillate.

Peter: I am podcast listening at the moment and doing a lot of reading. Tracey and I have replaced watching. Well, we don't watch Netflix or TV. Instead, we'll read, which has been really good. Oh, that's awesome.

Josh: How long have you been doing that for?

Peter: A little while now. I've been living at her place since December and we do it pretty much every night since then, which has been, that's been a great habit.

Josh: That's huge. How much are you, that's—

Peter: I'm reading so much more. Than I used to. Yeah, it's incredible.

Josh: Are you blown away by that, TJ?

Peter: I think I've read— I think I'm up to 9 books for the year so far.

Josh: He's got no kids.

Peter: Consumed. Yeah, well, I've got that luxury choice. I do.

Tommy: You have the choice too, Josh. I know, but just watch The City.

Josh: Yeah. And now fucking Bree loves maths, but I—

Tommy: Bree's...

Peter: Wait, was that maths or math?

Tommy: Maths.

Peter: Doing maths out there.

Josh: Math sounds stupid doesn't it?

Peter: So reading.

Tommy: There's something really stupid about You know, turning things into a little nickname like Matt.

Peter: Yeah, it's dumb.

Josh: But can I just say that Bree, she works so hard. Her thing is like she works so hard during the day that she— That's very loud, TJ. That by the end of the day, she's like, let me just unwind. We don't need to watch a storey or anything.

Peter: Great story.

Josh: Yeah, it is a great story.

Tommy: Which I also say, that's why Matt is the one.

Josh: But everyone works differently, don't they? Because I feel like, you know, I use the time, watch something. But even sleeping, I said to, um, uh, when I was having my blow-up, I said to Bree, I was like, ah, you know, like, I don't even— like, when I go to bed early, you get upset. And so it's like, I can't— I don't even control my bedtime. I don't even— I don't control anything anymore.

Tommy: And then she said, open up, Joshy, you have to feed him a little bit of food.

Peter: Here comes the airplane.

Tommy: No, I want the track. I want the track tonight.

Josh: Oh, shut Is someone feeling melancholy?

Peter: So, lots of reading.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So, reading's good.

Peter: And listening-wise, podcasts. I've been getting right around Armchair Expert. I think I'm late to the party. I only discovered it this year.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: And so, I've been bingeing all sorts of episodes of that podcast, which I think is— It's such a good podcast. And I've been dabbling here and there listening to some Clubhouse rooms, which is I find it's like either extreme. Either you're like, circle jerk, how awesome is this that you get to listen to like the person who wrote that book or started that business do a live Q&A, or you go into a room and go, this is so horrendous, I don't want to be fucking these people. Yeah, so I've been dabbling a little bit in audio Clubhouse, but mainly Armchair Expert is awesome. Yeah, I'm right into it. And of course, The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: Thank you. Um, there's a, there's a podcast, uh, have you heard of Fresh Air?

Peter: No.

Josh: So, it's an NPR. It's been around for years and years and years. Terry Gross, I think is her name. Terry Gross. Terry Gross. I can't remember. But she has an episode with Sacha Baron Cohen.

Peter: Oh, wow.

Josh: On the latest episode. It's very good.

Peter: That'd be epic.

Josh: Yeah. Just hearing about in the— Have you seen the Borat, the latest Borat film?

Peter: No.

Josh: So, you know about the Giuliani scene though?

Peter: I heard about it. It's just the lawyer and they were in the hotel room.

Josh: Because Terry says to Sasha, it's like, I heard that your, your release forms are quite convoluted and all that sort of thing. That's how you do it. And I thought straight away, I thought it's like from a legal perspective, I remember working at Envato, like a tech company. They spent so much time, the lawyers, about simplifying language because if you want any contract to hold up in court, it needs to be easily understood, easily interpreted. Yeah. So you can't, you can't just fucking hide shit and make it hard. He's like, yeah, no, like, it's not convoluted at all. Also with the Giuliani thing, so there's hidden cameras and stuff. He had to sign a release form that said that— in the actual release form it said that they would be using hidden cameras.

Peter: Wow. And he just didn't read it. Just didn't read it. That's not—

Josh: I mean, and also Sacha Baron Cohen talks about there's a scene where he goes to an anti-mask/pro-gun rally event.

Peter: It was a combo.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And he— it was hectic, but he was saying how they found out who he was. He was doing— he was sort of, you know, playing his Borat character and people started chasing him. And the— a guy actually pulled out— was— reached for his gun and Sasha's bodyguard grabbed the guy's hand and said, he's not worth it. And they didn't shoot at him or whatever, but he ended up— Sasha ended up in an ambulance, like, with his legs up against the door to hold it shut. Wow. As people were trying to fucking get in.

Peter: Oh my God.

Josh: It's very full on.

Peter: That's nuts.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Peter: Speaking of contracts.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: Force majeure.

Tommy: What's that?

Peter: Force majeure. Force majeure.

Tommy: I haven't heard of it.

Peter: Well, it's this clause I used to do a bit of contracting when I was working in corporates and force majeure was this clause that made you go for French food on Fridays. Basically, force majeure. Basically, you include, pretty much included in most contracts is my understanding.

Josh: It's a French word.

Peter: And it protects against, it's like a literal definition I think is it protects against acts of God, which is essentially like catastrophes and pandemics. And so, in the last 12 months, it's been like the clause that everyone is now being like, oh, this is actually super handy. We are protected because of force majeure.

Josh: Oh, no. You could imagine, yeah, insurance companies just trying to get out of a bunch of stuff.

Tommy: They already do for everything.

Peter: Isn't that their business model?

Tommy: They don't want to have claims put through. That's upsetting. Yeah. You know, the hundredth, you know, one in 100 years. Every 100 years is something like a pandemic. Yeah.

Josh: Is there like, what's been the biggest thing that's changed in your mind during all this pandemic? Like, what's the— The thing that, like, I feel like this has revealed a bunch of blind spots for people. What was the—

Tommy: You think they know, though? Do you think they know?

Josh: I think that— So, there's obviously like the gratitude piece on like how good things were.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: Like, that's an obvious one.

Tommy: Is a blind spot living in New York, can't actually afford it, and as soon as you can't make any money, you're done?

Josh: No, no. Blind spot, my interpretation would almost be like, Um, not realising how good it is, like, being on stage and performing for people, and then just being like, how much you rely on that stuff or rely on your castmates or those types of things.

Peter: Yeah, I feel it's almost like missed gratitude for what we had. Yeah, I think there's the realisation of how thick good things were and the realisation of how good things are for us in Australia. I feel like we're just so lucky that we're in Australia. In the last 12 months. And then just little things like I lived a life that was probably more chaotic than it needed to be. And not like in a crazy chaotic way, but in a— I did this exercise with Jen where we went back and looked at our calendars from January last year. And it was like, you know, one day I was in Collingwood and then in the city and then South Melbourne and then back to Elwood. And then the next day I had like 12 hours of meetings. And then the next day— and it was— I looked at that calendar, I was like, That is so anxiety-inducing. Now you're lucky if you, you know, well, for a while you weren't allowed to leave the 5K radius.

Josh: I mean, calendars are a tricky subject with us.

Peter: Oh, okay. Just because you scratch a wound.

Tommy: Sorry, what are we, Feb 2021?

Peter: So, go back to January 2020.

Josh: So, the 25th, the 26th of Jan, just looking wild, wild exercise.

Tommy: So, Jan. Oh my God, I've got all of Josh's. I've got your calendar in my fucking—

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: Bree FFG, Guzman Gomez, uh, walk Pete Shepherd.

Peter: Oh, here we go. There I am.

Josh: This is mine.

Tommy: I've got your calendar. I'm gonna turn it off.

Josh: Here we go. January.

Tommy: So, uh, I've got Mason's in there too. I'm just gonna turn off everything.

Josh: Hang on.

Peter: Sure, this is good.

Tommy: May.

Josh: Probably should just do the big calendar view. Here you go. I can swipe back. Right, so Jan— What the fuck?

Tommy: Do I have all yours?

Josh: Jan 2020.

Peter: Is there lots in there? Does it make you kind of anxious and overwhelmed?

Josh: Hiking with Luke.

Tommy: Who's Luke? The Beach House filming.

Peter: Shout out, Luke.

Josh: Yeah, I think, yeah, Luke. Oh no, I know Luke. Went hiking with Luke. My muscle.

Tommy: I watch calendarizing stuff. Selects for Country Road edit going on.

Josh: Um, production office tour where we did the, the video of the studio tour. That was on, uh, January 8th, um, walk with Periscope. There's me, um, 7:30.

Peter: Yeah, we did early morning.

Josh: Yeah, on the night, Thursday the 9th.

Peter: That was a good walk, that one. I remember that.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that day I, um, had— we had Simon Taylor on the, on the show.

Peter: Yeah, so I think like the realisation I had was I was filling my calendar with so much stuff because I, I don't know, I, I thought I had to, or I didn't even— I was doing it unconsciously. I was telling myself a storey I needed to. And I think the simplification that has happened over the last 12 months for everyone's life has been really hard. And the opportunity I've seen is, okay, so what, like, what does it look like to craft your calendar a bit more intentionally now? You don't have to go all of these different places.

Josh: I mean, I was, um, reading an article in the Philippines Kids under 14 have not left their house for a year because of COVID Yeah, they're basically— So, they're brutal. They— Because there's a lot of intergenerational living. So, a huge amount of kids live with grandparents who are in the high risk. Yeah. In the high. And so, the high— But imagine that. Imagine being— Imagine being under 14 And the actual law. So no malls, no anything. You actually, you have to stay at your home.

Peter: That's brutal.

Josh: For the entire time. If you are under the age of 14.

Tommy: It's almost dangerous. Like the schools send kids away at that age to, you know, like some private school and like recognise these kids are going to be fucking wild in year 9.

Peter: They send them on camps.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: They're like 8 weeks. It's like nothing like school.

Peter: In the bush.

Tommy: Yeah. It's more just like life skills, like Like, mate, I was naughty at 14.

Peter: That's outrageous.

Josh: Yeah. You just wonder about the, yeah, the COVID generation or whatever. Like, what is, what's all this going to look like? What's the, you see, like, I think that even the mental health thing, when you hear talking about the mental health thing, I think that I almost like didn't connect with it as much. Like, you almost like, ah, yeah, like as in, ah, the mental health ramifications. Like, it's a little like For whatever reason, I didn't really connect with it. But you actually see now every person I speak to are having— Even if you're doing better, like, this is the common thing that everyone's saying. It's like, you know, there's two camps, people who did remarkably worse, you know, and that's lower socioeconomic. Unfortunately, that's what's happening. It's like if you're poor, you become poorer, and if you are well off, you become richer. But the thing is that even that aside, it feels like there's a huge amount of people who are struggling. Um, and so, and, and this is just the beginning. Yeah, I don't think that it's us opening up. It's like you can have a great weekend, you can be all open up and get to do whatever you want on the weekend. Yeah, but you can fucking guarantee that the Monday, Monday is going to be a big shock to the system. If you haven't fucking been social.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: For months.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: And then you're having all these social interactions.

Peter: Yeah.

Josh: It fucks with you.

Peter: Yeah. I was talking, I actually was talking to my therapist about this where I, I was sharing with her that I was surprised how tired and anxious I became when we got out of lockdown because I was like, this is the thing we all wanted, wasn't it? Like, I don't understand. We've gone back to what we're used to.. And, you know, she sort of helped me unpack a little bit of like, it's not even, it's not that you've gone back, it's actually, it's all new again. So, it's like going, it's like that first couple of weeks where we went into lockdown when it was like anxieties were high, what is going on, uncertainty. You just went through that again to come out of lockdown and then you go into a snap 5-day lockdown and you kind of go through a mini version of again and then we come out of the snap 5 and you're into it again. So, it's like, it's, yeah, I think the cost of mental, the cost on our mental health even those of us who are privileged enough to be doing okay, it's still huge. Yeah.

Tommy: Well, there's still rich people that have got serious fucking mental health problems.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: There's happy people that experience severe mental health, you know, like, doesn't discriminate.

Peter: No.

Tommy: Melancholy.

Peter: It's real.

Tommy: It's fucking melancholy.

Peter: Melancholy.

Josh: Yeah. We would call the episode Melancholy, but it's—

Tommy: It's a bit melancholy.

Peter: It's been a pretty upbeat episode, too, hasn't it?

Tommy: It's been good, mate. It's been good to have you back in.

Josh: Thank you for coming in. And How's the podcast going?

Peter: Going well. We're up to, I think, 126, 127.

Tommy: It's great.

Peter: We had our first interview ever with Seth, which was fun.

Josh: That's great.

Peter: Yeah. And other than that, we're just chipping away one a week still.

Tommy: Any plans to stop?

Peter: No, none.

Tommy: Any plans to keep it going?

Peter: No, we love it. Yeah. I mean, the— we love doing it even if no one was listening. And I feel like that's a really important part of a process or a practise or creative endeavour is you do— we decided to do it once a week regardless of what would happen. I'd be like you guys, once a day. And, and so the decision has already been made. You just keep showing up and doing it each week.

Josh: And we're still here.

Peter: We're still here.

Tommy: Yeah, 967 episodes later.

Peter: What's the plan for 1,000?

Tommy: I haven't worked it out, mate. Don't put that pressure on us.

Josh: Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Tommy: What do you think we should do? That's a good point. I, I'm not married to anything.

Josh: So Ryan Shelton's got to be involved in something.

Tommy: I'd like Ryan to be part of it. Okay.

Josh: You should be a part of it.

Tommy: That'd be nice.

Peter: You've got Ryan by the sound of it.

Josh: No, but I think that we could do one idea that I had on the drive in.

Tommy: Can we drive? Yeah, go, go. Sorry.

Josh: 1,000 minutes.

Peter: How long is that?

Josh: Divide it by 60.

Peter: 1 hour.

Tommy: Can you work it out?

Josh: It's around. Yeah. Use some algebra.

Peter: Is it 10 hours and 400 minutes? Like 1 hour 40 would be 60 minutes. You just add a zero to that.

Josh: So, if you do 400, then what's 400 minutes?

Peter: I don't think that's right.

Josh: It's like 12 hours. Yeah, it's probably long, but if we—

Tommy: 1,000 divided by 60, 16.66.

Josh: 16 hours. So it's— I mean, it's— but it's nowhere near 24 hours. And so it could be a nicer— yeah, I did think about like, you could do 1,000 seconds.

Tommy: We had to take annual leave after the—

Peter: yeah, what about 1,000 seconds?

Josh: Oh yeah, what is 1,000 seconds? So that would be 16—

Peter: 1.6 hours, wouldn't it?

Josh: Oh, yeah.

Tommy: That's nice.

Josh: This is a long app. No, but I think the— So, the appeal, I think that part of it is with all of the— I don't know if I'm mentally ready to go on stage and do some performance.

Peter: I don't know.

Josh: I don't know.

Peter: We might not be allowed to. When is it? It's going to be in a month or so.

Tommy: April.

Peter: Okay.

Tommy: April, March, April 7th, I think.

Josh: It'd be nice to do something, but if we could do it live, I'd love to still have Gronks watching live or whatever. So if there was like a live stream, this setup's comfy.

Peter: This is a great—

Josh: if we, you know, we could have every hour just having guests on, we could do a bunch of remote stuff and just have fun with it. And I feel like this could work.

Tommy: It's a Tuesday, I think.

Peter: Yep. Um, good day, Tuesday.

Tommy: Yeah, we'll knock out the week.

Josh: Chewy Tuesday. Yeah, one every hour until we shit ourselves.

Peter: A thousand pieces of Chewy.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: What about— yeah, yeah, there's something in the number.

Josh: What about 1,000 calories every hour?

Tommy: 1K. 1,000 calories.

Peter: 1,000 steps.

Tommy: Oh, there's 1,000. You gotta eat 1,000. That's all you get.

Peter: Easy. Too easy. Yeah, 1,000 steps.

Josh: 1,000, um, 1,000 guests.

Tommy: Everything.

Peter: What if you spoke to 1,000 people on the show?

Tommy: That's a lot. That's a fucking lot of people.

Josh: 1,000.

Tommy: You can only do— you can only get food from 1,000 metres away.

Josh: Oh yeah, $1,000 worth of food.

Tommy: No, $1,000. Yeah, we thought—

Peter: we thought we were going to do that for an episode Episode 500.

Tommy: So here's then the challenge. Uh, it's grandiose, it's a big number. Uh, most people will never do 1,000 podcasts. I'll probably do what, hardly anything that other people do in my life. It's a weird one that why we've even done that.

Josh: To be honest, probably lots of people will do 1,000 podcasts now.

Tommy: Like, not just everyone's gonna have a podcast, but so that can they stick with it. Yeah, so that is the point. We haven't stopped, they had a few little breaks, but Never thought. No.

Peter: Wasn't there? There was some research. It was a few years ago now. It was like the average number of episodes per podcast in the library was something like 8.

Josh: Yeah.

Peter: So, you got all these podcasts that start and don't get past episode 8.

Josh: Josh Speaking got to 11.

Tommy: Yeah. It's over the average. Yeah. That 10, that 10 break, that 10, son. But there's also like in the last little while, this Monday's episode, even what? What, you know, the transition from a month or so of just us talking shit because we were going through some stuff and we didn't really want to go there. But it's also like you see how you just can't— like, not stopping is the thing that you need to do.

Peter: Yeah.

Tommy: And so if it's— I don't know, but then you want to celebrate.

Josh: It's like a—

Tommy: it's like the bloke that doesn't want to fucking celebrate his birthday, but he kind of loves it. Oh no, we love it.

Josh: No, I think we could definitely—

Peter: don't make a big deal, but seriously, make a big deal about it. Yeah.

Josh: I think we could do something fun in the studio, live streamed. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Peter Shepherd, thank you for coming on the show.

Peter: Thanks for having me. Good to be here again, guys.

Josh: Thanks, mate. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.

Peter: See you, team.