Tommy Jackett: [00:00:00] Very low barrier to get into the wrong spot.
Josh Janssen: [00:00:07] We've committed to do the daily talk show for 10 years. I had guys
Tommy Jackett: [00:00:10] put it in the calendar.
Josh Janssen: [00:00:12] Just like to check the temperature in the room. I told you my squeegee story.
Yeah, it's the daily talk show episode 962 is happening. What is going on? Everybody just getting comfy bang back. Yeah.
Tommy Jackett: [00:00:27] Yeah. We're um, I feel like we're at a we're Kings at a table. Yeah. Boardroom we're quite far away from each other. Just slightly different setup in the studio. I mean, it's good to be back.
Maybe just feels like that. Cause we're out of the lockdown here in Melbourne, which is good.
Josh Janssen: [00:00:43] Real good. Yeah. Uh, I had a telemarketer call me yesterday. Did you
Tommy Jackett: [00:00:47] have any, if you do, they
Josh Janssen: [00:00:49] said, uh, is that Josh. I said, uh, no, I think you've got the wrong number. You said I know it. Oh yeah. I said, uh, no, he said, uh, your emails, Jansen dot josh@gmail.com.
He said your details are everywhere. It's straight to the point. I said my name's Sam and then I hung up.
Tommy Jackett: [00:01:13] I knew it was you Josh. Yeah. I mean, I, I took a different tact the other day. It wasn't yesterday. It was probably same guy actually. Was it about investment? Yeah. They're all about investment. Maybe it's something to do with our business.
Like people seeing, uh, and numbers on sites or something. Anyway, this guy said to me, um, hello, Tommy, you know, this it's all chummy. And I said, Johnny, Oh mate, how are ya? I just said of led into, well, what are you up to mate? Do you hear about Doris? Yeah, my bad wasn't it. And he kind of played into it for a bit, but by the end, I just, I wouldn't let him have really a word.
And he just started saying to me, you need rest, mate, you need rest. Get some rest. I was like, how's that?
Josh Janssen: [00:02:01] Yeah. I mean, I feel it a L a, a lot of people need a rest. From a lockdown. Like, I feel like the sense is that everyone's feeling tired, even though they're not leaving the house or they haven't left the
Tommy Jackett: [00:02:12] house, haven't done your two hours a day of exercise that you're only allowed to do, but somehow you feel like you're fucking done for, I tell you what, we've got a rest from.
Um, Facebook displaying news that is coming out of Australia. They've just put their foot down and said, absolutely not. You know, a lot of post, any news, uh, linking off to some sites. So news.com day you there Facebook's gone like completely gone. They're going 1000001.4 million. Uh, followers or subscribers, whatever it is, no posts they've even removed the images.
What's your
Josh Janssen: [00:02:47] gauge on it for a punter? Just seeing this news. W they made me who side do you go
Tommy Jackett: [00:02:53] on? I was made by news.com today. Pedestrian TV, uh, Oh, bike at seven 11. Uh, what else was there a thousand steps? This is how I'm here, Matt, Matt and I. And so there is a, all the radio stations we worked for and we worked Tyler, Tyler tirelessly on those, those pages.
Yeah. Jules LUN hangs his hat on building one of the biggest and Holly in highest engaged page in Australia gone. Well, my, my, my consensus, or I don't know, I don't, I don't feel for them at all. I feel like. They demand like the, the Australian government, um, pastor bill on Wednesday, which meant that it was enforcing the, uh, basically these sites like Facebook and Google, which Google have agreed to the terms laid out that they will pay media outlets.
So Google are handing over $30 million cash every single year to nine. Channel nine. I was going to say nine West, but nine who I'm the age and a bunch of other media outlets for being able to use their news articles within things like apps and, um, Google news display. Like there's a bunch of stuff, which kind of makes sense, but I don't really feel for these.
Media outlets at all, pedestrian, like they're crying poor. It is their business model. They will take a massive hit. Yeah. But you see, they, they, they did. So there's a few things they're threatening. They were threatening one of the largest platforms, one of the largest businesses on the planet with Facebook that were threatening Facebook, we just said, all right.
Absolutely not.
Josh Janssen: [00:04:37] Yeah. I mean, as guys who like the underdog, it seems a bit difficult because it is hard. It seems like from the media side of things, it's like, you know, you know what you're signing up for, you know, what the deal is. And so, um, If I was Facebook, I would do the same
Tommy Jackett: [00:04:58] thing. Yeah, fuck. Yeah. And if I was news.com w I'd be crying, I'd be pissed off.
I'd be annoyed. I'd be publishing articles about where their algorithms have fucked up and taken down, you know, pages that are charity pages. Um,
Josh Janssen: [00:05:14] it doesn't matter. It doesn't help a bunch of things. What it doesn't help is Facebook with the, all of the antitrust lawsuits that are happening in the States at the moment, because.
Uh, they're not looking like some sort of open platform that anyone can use at this point. They're highly editorializing things because they're basically saying yes or no on what can be on the platform.
Tommy Jackett: [00:05:39] It's a hard one, because think about, I think about my conservative friends. Um, that would be that the height, the thought that these big tech giants have the power that they do and they can change people's lives for the worst.
They can ruin people. They can, you know, take down an individual's business by Facebook, could just delete your page and you've lost all of your revenue. Um, but at the same time, they also don't like the news, uh, outlets based on their, you know, their stance, their political stance and how they, you know, their, um, opinions are swayed or they're pushing an agenda in a certain direction.
So it's a hard one. Where do they. Where did they see it? I haven't spoken to them today. The other thing too, how many, five conservatives,
Josh Janssen: [00:06:27] how
Tommy Jackett: [00:06:27] many actually, that would make me a conservative based on you are the product of the five users. Fuck. I'm conservative. I'm
Josh Janssen: [00:06:36] joking. I mean, that's okay.
Tommy Jackett: [00:06:39] George do not insert the snippet where I said, um, I'll go full right-wing at this time.
Josh Janssen: [00:06:45] Um, no, but I think the, the thing that I find difficult is. Or the people who are complaining about this, are they using the power they have, which is to get off these platforms? Are they doing that? This is the problem. There's a lot of convenience in using Google and using Facebook in even things like Google Chrome, like at the start of the year, I said, I'm going to just use Safari and within.
A week of being back at the office, I went so hard.
Tommy Jackett: [00:07:20] He went back. He was so annoyed that your one password password manager
Josh Janssen: [00:07:25] wasn't connected to safaris. You can use the password managers, but Safari where it falls over is with extensions. And so this is the problem. I was listening to Seth Goden on a podcast called cool tools, which was created by Kevin Kelly.
Uh, who, uh, founded wired magazine and, um, he's he created a physical book called call tools. He's the guy who, uh, wrote that great article called 1000 true fans. Oh yeah. Kevin Katz. Yes. Anyway, um, Kevin Kelly had, uh, Seth,
Tommy Jackett: [00:07:58] you said 1000, which even put, you, pulled yourself up and
Josh Janssen: [00:08:04] well, I think it's called a thousand true fans.
Yeah, it is true fans, true fans. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, like Seth was talking about, uh, not using Google, but then went on to say he uses crime. Like he ends up having to use these things. Yeah.
Tommy Jackett: [00:08:24] B I would be more effected. I think if it was, uh, Google being removed from Australia. You mentioned that that's a slightly different Facebook, I feel is a different breed.
You're on there. You're a different breed. If you're on Facebook, to be honest, I mean, I'm, I'm on there. I like it is, there is boomers on there. There is people of our generation. I mean, we're in the, in their thirties, but like young kids aren't getting around the book anymore. Like, like at once was,
Josh Janssen: [00:08:57] yeah. I mean, I even, this is coming from two guys who don't know that much about, like, we haven't been this isn't a news podcast.
So if you're expecting that go somewhere else. But, um, I find it interesting that there's all the talk about Facebook, but what's happening with Instagram. Yeah.
Tommy Jackett: [00:09:13] So, uh, this, the issue that people are floating is that what, what, what classes a news outlet. So, but tutor advocate. They're a calmer satirical.
Josh Janssen: [00:09:29] Very funny. Definitely not news.
Tommy Jackett: [00:09:31] Well, they reflect the current topics in a humorous way, which kind of is giving you information about what's going on at the moment, you know, so it could be something about Dan Andrews about Victoria. Have they been taken down, uh, from what I can see on their Facebook page, checking in at about 2:00 PM today, there was, it was still there and they had put out this thing saying.
Uh, sign signup to our newsletter, our email newsletter.
Josh Janssen: [00:10:00] Um, and the reason I like it is because it forces innovation. So when Facebook, so the thing is Facebook has been doing the shit already. Facebook. If you have a hundred thousand likes on Facebook, when you go post something, you're not reaching a hundred thousand people, you're, you are reaching a very, very, very small portion of the audience that you have.
So in, in that regard, Facebook's already not showing your shit to the people who like, or follow you. And so what this does I feel is creates a very clear line in the sand where people cool we'll have to innovate. They'll have to get their shit together. They'll have to say the thing that we've been renting the space on Facebook, isn't really serving us.
And so hopefully over the last, you know, 10 years, These organizations have been working towards a strategy that doesn't rely on another private company, you know, to keep them, um,
Tommy Jackett: [00:11:01] uh, going, I mean, you think they've actually done that you think. The problem is when you just get a little bit, you know, you get a little taste and so news.com that are you or pedestrian, which have built their business model around posting their news links to platforms like social Facebook that have built up huge followings.
And I consumed a lot of it. I mean, I was a bit agitated by half the shit that's posted anyway, that clickbait headlines and, and I didn't get rid of it. It's been, it's been done for me, which, which I'm not that I'm not that worried about it. It's great. But do you think they, when they, um, so they're spending, they might spend a bit of money to push some of these links that get high traffic to their site, then they're charging advertisers on their website, you know, a premium based on the amount of click-throughs do you think.
Do you think that those businesses were thinking let's do it another way? Like it's like we're making money this way.
Josh Janssen: [00:11:57] Yeah, I think that there's, um, I guess there's always a push to build brand equity so that people will go to news.com. Do they, you versus going to Facebook, but the idea is, I guess, that you need to build a habit that there's going to be.
There's obviously media companies that have a, um, An app. That's why I've been looking at the economist a lot because they do have a completely different business model around how they, they're not relying on the advertising and all that sort of thing. They're relying on a substance option model. Do you, do you,
Tommy Jackett: [00:12:31] I'm sorry, you finished?
Yeah. Do you, do you, do you sign up to any sub stacks, uh, or pay for any substitute for any substance? No. I mean, there's a bunch of journalists making quite a bit of coin. Mm, American ones that, uh, rod has for big, big, big, um, news outlets that are charging a subscription fader to get some of their personal articles, which is more of a sustainable business model than what w what's what's just being smashed down.
What if you were news.com w what would you do? I mean, you are rubbing. Yeah. That's what he calls
Josh Janssen: [00:13:09] it in the news. I mean, uh, So who on the sub stack thing, we're always going to hear stories at the start of the people who were, who were making a bunch of cash sub stack, uh, got a bunch of journalists onto the platform by saying, we'll give you a hundred grand a year.
Upfront and advanced essentially. And, um, that means that you can make money, build your audience and you just basically pay us back through the subscriptions, if that makes sense. Um, and so the problem with all of this stuff is, uh, how long can that tail Bay, how many journalists. Through subscriptions, can we actually have happening simultaneously?
And I think that if we learned from anything from podcasting, our experiences at this stage is that there are a 1% podcasts used, you know, Joe Rogan's, the Spotify deals, all of those types of things that are making huge amounts of money. And then there's the 99. Are the percent, which aren't necessarily making a great deal.
And so I think that that's where this stuff is hard. I don't know what the economics are. Long-term of. How many subscriptions are you willing to have? How many sub stacks are you willing to subscribe to? I mean,
Tommy Jackett: [00:14:34] I don't know, personally anyone who subscribes to a sub stack. I mean, half the, if I told my mum would have sub stack was she'd be on it, she'd be on it, but she'd probably create her own.
Yeah. She's a real entrepreneur,
Josh Janssen: [00:14:44] but the, um, Yeah, on the, the substance thing. I think in certain industries, there can be serious money to give you an example, uh, imagine, uh, say crypto is a, is a good example where people can make real money. If you can make thousands of dollars a month. Or if that can, if that great information can completely change your financial situation or if your day trading or whatever it is spending $50 a month.
To have it have a sub stack is nothing because when you compare it to the amount that you can make, it makes complete sense, but then things like entertainment. How much are people willing to
Tommy Jackett: [00:15:27] spend on that? What do you think the future is for, uh, journalists? Because these, these outlets like news.com w I mean, we just keep using that.
Um, but it's, uh, any TV station, 10, nine, seven. They all have Facebook pages. They all, all the journalists contribute in some way. They pull snippets from live television, post them, which all of that's done pedestrian sports. Think about any sport like news sport, all done. And so there is the flow on effect.
Which is where you can start empathizing for these companies, because they'll start saying, well, what about the young journos that don't have a shot anymore? There's no career for them. The shepherd of news, a local, you know, the radio station I worked for in chip gone.
Josh Janssen: [00:16:16] Well, this is the whole finite and infinite games thing.
So the finite game is what Facebook has offered and a bunch of news outlets. All of them. Decided to play that game. That's not a game that's guaranteed. It's not forever, but this is the exact same thing's happening with Instagram. With reels people don't like reels more than they like posts or videos.
Instagram is actively prioritizing these things. This is completely. Uh, thanks to the algorithm. This isn't everyone saying what I like if they use few seconds. Yeah. And so what we need to do as a whole community, this is more than just a single business thing. Uh, the unfortunate position is that it is too enticing to play the finite game, because if you're told as a business, which we are, you can have access to customers, you can have access to your audience.
However, we need you to play this game. We need you to do real snappy content. We need you to dance. And when you dance, you need a point at the high acid. Yeah, yeah. And fucking
Tommy Jackett: [00:17:34] stupid haircut. Exactly where
Josh Janssen: [00:17:36] a little midriff. So you have to play that game. If you play that game, you will get rewarded with people.
Seeing. That content, which will then mean that you're relevant. And then by being relevant, you can then sell. And this is, this is even the problem with clubhouse. All of these social media, I think, especially in 2021 is demonstrating exactly what is wrong, because everyone who, who is actively playing on that, those platforms applying.
That finite game. And by playing that finite game, you have to sometimes go against your values. If you believe in deep conversations is the best place to have a deep conversation on Instagram, in a rail that's Twitter. This is the thing. If, if it is, uh, if you're a company or a brand, that's trying to have deep conversations, you have two choices.
You can go on social media, like Instagram and try and siphon some of that audience, try and get some attention, try and switch, do sort of a switcheroo start with offering this quick stuff and then trying to, you know, move people along. But the problem is how often does the transition happen? Facebook has been around for a very long time.
Yeah, it's great. Every fucking brand has, this is the thing that brands don't have these huge email lists. So we're incentivized to stay on to keep going and play the finite game. And this is what's up. And so
Tommy Jackett: [00:19:22] you think w how, how has it, I mean, we don't know, but how, how is Facebook thinking? This is a good idea.
Well, if they, if their goal is play our game, The finite game. Cause we can change it up whenever we want. Most likely we'll keep you addicted and keep you coming back. But now I've said absolutely not. I mean, you said to me today that 4% of their revenue comes from, from news, from news. So meaning a news outlet spending money on
Josh Janssen: [00:19:55] I'm guessing it wasn't against news.
So against news content, I guess that's how they came
Tommy Jackett: [00:20:00] into that revenue coming through. Which then they're saying we will turn that 4% off winning and
Josh Janssen: [00:20:05] shit. And this is because they've been put in a position where they're being told, Hey, uh, you have to pay us. And so this is the, this is the problem. Uh, there's no real winners.
The main winner is the audience who can now make a decision and say, okay, do I like what's happening here? Um,
Tommy Jackett: [00:20:30] well, there's, you know, one of the polls on one of the new sites that you had to source out by going directly there said, um, it was like, will you boycott Facebook? Yes or no. It
Josh Janssen: [00:20:41] was like, but we don't like w we actually, as a community, I don't think we're very good at doing this.
I think that the that's, what's the funniest thing about things like cancel culture and trying to keep people accountable. Is we turn a blind eye to the most obvious injustices, obvious, uh, inconsistencies in what we do. This is what's so ironic about the whole thing is it's like, we're on Facebook, we're on Instagram.
And this is, this is the decision that even activists have to make. It's like, okay, we've got to be where everyone else is. But at the same time, they're doing the same before, you know, it they're, they're pointing and dancing so they can do it just
Tommy Jackett: [00:21:31] trying to get it, to get my message out there. Yeah. And then you justify why you start playing that.
And so, I mean, what our relationship I've always said to you, like, do you really think people are actually fucking thinking in the sense of I'm playing the game? Like a lot of people get sucked in mixed me that they're fucking. You know, doing the Tik TOK dance and they're like, Whoa, like they might not even acknowledge that they've had to play it in that way, or because they've been drip fed bitter cocaine, bit of that, you know, that hit and they're like, this is the best, next minute.
They're F they're all in on it. But you see half the creators on YouTube that have been around for 10 years or five, you know, five years even. Uh, saying this they're like, don't get the new, the new up and coming a pro psych ha how many YouTubers with 10 million subscribers have pulled the pin? It's because they've all realized that even at that level, you're playing a certain game.
So if you
Josh Janssen: [00:22:27] get told, okay, if your thumbnail looks a certain way, if you start your content in this way, if you do this and you do that for one. We've essentially homogenized creativity. So rather than it being, Oh, sizes, shapes, colors, different styles of content, they all start the fucking same. They're also like being on YouTube, if you want to be successful on YouTube.
And this is the thing like when Casey Neistat, the vlogger, he did a daily vlog for how long was it? A couple of hundred. Yeah. Over a year of doing daily content. And at that time, The algorithm was all about daily content. Didn't matter what it was just posting every single day. Um, and so it's hard. It is hard, even though we play a bunch of these games, it's hard to have any sympathy for bigger media companies, uh, that have benefited from this.
Knowing exactly what the, um, like it's, it's all very clear. Like we've known about that. And this is, I guess this is the problem with Uber as well. This is the problem with, uh, paying for food, doing delivery in that way. And knowing that if we do a delivery, uh, if, if we get something delivered that 30%. Of what that cafe is, you know, charging 30% of it is going to Uber.
Isn't that crazy. But then our habits, like we have completely traded convenience for our values for what's important.
Tommy Jackett: [00:24:14] Mm Hmm. Yeah. Cause most people would say, I want the restaurant to have, you know, they've put in a hundred percent of the effort. All my, yeah. And on the guy riding the bike,
Josh Janssen: [00:24:24] but the thing is they charge a delivery fee on top of that, and this is the thing it always starts off.
Um, and this is why it's also dark. You look at the big tech, it always ends up going in one direction. So if you look at where, if I switch it, and if you look away for the shareholders, if you look at where Facebook started, It was a free for all. You would G every single person would say it, but then there's a time where that doesn't make business sense anymore.
It's the same thing that's happened with Uber. When Uber started Uber eats, it was super low price, free delivery, uh, for a bunch of time on the bus. And then, yeah, and then all of these things started happening. Then it's like, hang on. This is what pisses me off about Uber eats. They'll ha that say, okay, um, you're paying three bucks for delivery, but what they'll also do, so you're paying full price for delivery.
Then they tell some other ground, Kay, do you want to get in on this person's delivery? But then sometimes they'll fucking deal. Many times they'll deliver the food to the F the other person first. And so it's like, It's not helping the restaurants. Yeah. It's purely helping Uber and it's fucking the customer experience.
And so
Tommy Jackett: [00:25:46] I can tell you that much. It is. I mean, I think about all the social media gurus yelling, your business has to be on Facebook or you have to like, Oh, you have to be on social media. Like, that's just one part of Facebook's plan that can have paper, people echoing that. And then all the people that do, you know, sit there, just scrolling and then the money that's being made.
It is a mess. I wonder if it will, if people will. I mean, if another option comes up, people will just take that the easier option. The thing is they they're so addictive.
Josh Janssen: [00:26:25] Do you do to, like, what would it look like for you to completely give up social media?
Tommy Jackett: [00:26:30] Um, I mean, just delay. I mean, how many times have we talked about this?
It's almost like it's been decided upon for a lot of people and maybe that's what it ends up needing. Like, so back to the game, playing element of all of this, and I think where we haven't done well is play the game to some degree. Get real slimy with it all, you know, get real click baity. Like you see the people who have won just creating content.
Not because, I mean, you can tell yourself the story that you like creating and making videos and doing fun video, like photos and shit. But some of these people have convinced themselves that like what you all, all that you've said is, and so they've just embodied the, the process of. How can I get attention?
How can I get, you know, into people's feeds? And so that's where I don't think we've played that game well, because
Josh Janssen: [00:27:32] if you look at the winners, do you aspire to be the winners of those games? And I don't know, I look at it. I look at, and this is, and everything's a story, but. Uh,
Tommy Jackett: [00:27:44] you're saying, because when you look at winners, you like, you're not there.
So you're telling yourself a story because you haven't been able to do what they've been able
Josh Janssen: [00:27:51] to do. Yeah. Like I think that's, that's probably part of it, but I think that also people who are winning at these things have created a different story to justify. So the thing is that it could be with it completely within their values.
So you could tell a story of, I believe in deep and meaningful conversations, but what I also recognize. Is that the best way for me to change minds is to be where the people who need changing are,
Tommy Jackett: [00:28:20] um, will you see the impact you can have on a small amount of people? Uh, like real impact life-changing shit.
Think about counselors thinking about psychologists that work one-on-one probably can only do what, like five appointments a day at max. Like that seems like a lot. Very draining 25 appointments a week, but they can change 25 people's lives. And the difference in how you feel when you get the stimulation from a post that gets heaps of attention, heaps of comments, heaps of stimulus, not saying it's good, because I do think that the changing someone's life over at an individual level is more powerful, but it doesn't feel as.
Maybe doesn't feel as rewarding. I can't speak for that industry, but like I know when I've probably helped an individual over a bunch of stimulus, that's come through from something I've posted, I'm more effect. I'm more, something is going on from the social media hit, then this individual, like I can feel, Oh, that was nice.
But then when you can be at home to fucking looking at like, Oh, this person's saying this, it's like, It's not good. I didn't think, but it's highly stimulating.
Josh Janssen: [00:29:43] I think like, uh, Cal Newport who wrote, uh, deep work calls it, um, shallow work. I th I think that it's like so easy to spend a lot of time in shallow work and because it can feel.
Like you're making progress, like swiping, like where were wanting to see something new to think about, like, you know, it's just this sort of constant thing. And just speaking to my own experience, I think that especially the reels, like I think that there's, um, we're going to demo reels, not like, I think the, the conversation having, having, having had conversations.
With marketers from people in this space, like you're sort of, um, I think that there's going to be a lot of people who decide that that's not what they're willing to do. So if, if like, because it's all same disease, it is like, if you watch it, it has a certain style, a certain way of speaking. There's a cadence to how.
You know, it's like the, um, the classic one is like, here's how the, this is how I made fucking, how many videos have you watched of that fucking Fetter pasta where they, you know, the one and then people are like, Oh, you know what? Like, uh, I don't like Farrah, so I've made a new one and like it's yeah, that's the thing.
So now it's not just reels. It's like, if you want to do well, Make your own Fetter, pastor video, how many fucking videos do we need of making Fetter pasta in all seriousness? Do you think it's outrageous like, Oh, you know what? Um, that stomach, if I see one more fucking case, a DIA where it's cut with the wrap with the fucking avocado on one side chicken, and then you put it in the grill.
Fuck. How many of those do we need? How many this is the 2021 social media is Donald's direct if it was funding user generated content. Except what we're saying is the transaction is you make the fed Pascal and you are irrelevant. If you like it is the most absurd. Yeah. Who who's it for? What's her, for who we connecting with?
It is the biggest, like, I haven't thought about it that much. This is fucking bullshit.
Tommy Jackett: [00:32:25] I'm done throw socially fans into the works, thinking about the people that started just fucking doing fucking next minute. They're fucking like legitimate swaying of values. Not saying everyone, maybe people are just like, yeah, I want to do porn.
Can't wait. Some people started dancing, ended up. Doing porn. And so like that's only, that's another conversation.
Josh Janssen: [00:32:53] The equivalent of you start with LGTV and now you're on reels, like
Tommy Jackett: [00:32:59] optimize, optimize, optimize, it's all to make money. What is it? So the thing
Josh Janssen: [00:33:04] is that it chemists can come across as a little bit sort of, um, Airy fairy, maybe.
So w what we risk in this conversation is it coming across as the starving artists, the, and there's many having gone to the VCA film and TV, seeing those departments, seeing how artists operate. There are 70% of people. This is going back 10 years, 70% of people in the class that I went to. That w uh, didn't want to play the commercial game.
They, they didn't want to do corporate work. They didn't want to, you know, just feel that sort of sound clips, low budgets,
Tommy Jackett: [00:33:46] all basic, all budget goes to the
Josh Janssen: [00:33:49] film, to the lenses. You know, all we want is we just want to be able to afford the lenses. And so I don't want us to come across as like this isn't about anti, uh, commercialism or anti-capitalism.
This is about. Anti sameness, anti, uh, anti doing. Yeah, just doing like we're essentially. This is you, you, you think about, um, uh, the idea of, uh, you know, it's the CII stuff of putting in a chip. No. It's like the, um, the vaccine, you know, if I can, bill Gates is, is putting something special in there so we can track, she
Tommy Jackett: [00:34:34] read that from Facebook on
Josh Janssen: [00:34:35] a seven news.
It's exactly. I think you told me about, um, uh, conspiracy, Jimmy. Yeah. But the thing is that, um, the, the glaring obvious thing, the thing that is actually happening. The control that these social media networks have on us around, if you just do this, then you'll be, and look at thumbnails, look how long it was, where we were like, fuck it.
We're not doing the thumbnail, but then you start saying, well, maybe if we do Photoshop this thing onto this thing, it will. And then before, you know it, like, if you look straight, if you watch a YouTube video, if you watch, um, a video on how to be successful on YouTube in 2021, there'll be mostly videos that will tell you that you should spend as much time on the thumbnail and the title as you do on the video.
They'll even say, don't come, don't start making a video until you have the thumbnail. And so I, I just think, uh, we just need to be very wary of what it's doing. We need to, we need to feel that gut instinct that we have where it's like, uh, this, this doesn't necessarily feel right. Or this feels like I'm just doing the status quo war trying to beat, like, you cannot.
Separate brands on social media anymore. It's just, there's just too many. And the other thing too, is the democratization of tools like Canva, which are great. Also creates this same homogenization, which is template. Y like guys. Just template. There's only like five different options. It's template it. And so this is what ends up happening is it's just, we've become this templated world where we were all, we're all essentially doing the same thing and we're all like best practices on all of these social networks to the point where we're winning.
It feels like we're winning. And then we look around, am I like a talk like an Instagrammer? My, my content looks like a tree. Look at fucking travel. Look at Instagram, like travel content you can scroll on and you'll see. And we've spoken about this. You'll look at someone who's got like drone footage used to be a thing.
Remember like, you know, you'd be able to stand out. You can go onto an Instagram account now that has 150 followers and they have the content that would have gained you a million followers. Six or seven years ago, wrong timing, but it's also, it's just the, it becomes really easy. It's got like, there is going to be a point, even with this stuff that we do where it's just like, as things get more accessible, things get easier.
And so you have to be up for changing. Yeah.
Tommy Jackett: [00:37:48] You think people are thinking about the audience before themselves. Like if you were to put. The audience. And when people, when I say audience, you could have 150 Facebook followers and view that as your audience, which it kind of is, but you also, it also could be the audience you think you want in the future, or it could just be complete construction of in your head.
I mean, the audience could just be who's on the receiving end of what you're creating or are they going to think? And so that is your audience. And so I'm thinking, I see where there could be just some misalignment between. The values of an individual and then some audience that they're manufacturing with thought, and then they're creating for that.
Josh Janssen: [00:38:34] I think that it actually is more about needs basic needs. Like, I don't think we need likes, but somehow we've attached having a safe place to live shelter food with these things, because what we say is like, Oh, you know what? Um, We need to be relevant. We need to have a successful business. We need to have customers, we need to bring in revenue.
And so then all of the things that connect up, become that social network. And then, so unfortunately the problem is that when we don't get many likes, I believe that the same fucking part in our brain that tells us. We're going to staff starts to be triggered and that's fucking scary position. And the thing is that in the nineties, in the eighties and the seventies, all the times before social media existed, now parents survived and had food and they didn't have it saying that they had the yellow pages.
Tommy Jackett: [00:39:39] Yeah. So I took out an ad in the yellow pages. Fuck. That makes me feel like maybe we
Josh Janssen: [00:39:43] should, maybe let's. Just
Tommy Jackett: [00:39:46] get some old school advertising going
Josh Janssen: [00:39:48] on this. This could be a PR opportunity. What about if we said podcast removes itself from all social media to focus on yellow pages, they don't need to be narrow minded.
Tommy Jackett: [00:39:59] Can I get a physical one? I don't know if they're doing physical anymore. Not sure it's worth their money. I, I legitimate I'll vocalize this. I don't know how to. Completely articulate. Um, the thought that I did have, which was like, you know, moments where you have like a realization, you feel it, you feel in your body, but I was like, I was thinking about the things I've created in the sort of mission I've been on my part in the previous 10 years of my life.
And it's all been very centered around stimulating my ego and I, and I that's, as best as I can come up with. But the feeling is just like, it was like shock in the moment I've been doing a lot of meditation on self and, you know, um, the experience of self and consciousness and all that. And I've just, and I was like, fuck, like all of that shit is such stimulation and food, energy for your ego.
And that part of me that just desires that and wants that and fucking gets a motive about it is like that is your ego that he's in my ego. I feel it. And so it's, and the, I don't know where I land yet based on what, what do you do on the other side of it?
Josh Janssen: [00:41:19] It also, if that's been your operating system, You've surrounded yourself with people who think like you do.
And so then having that conversation and saying, Oh, I've decided I'm not going to be on social media, or I'm going to decide this. You're going to have a bunch of people who will encourage you to continue on the path that you're already on. That's been the thing that's the big learning is, um, as, as I've made big decisions in my life.
Uh, you need to realize that the people around you that are giving you fade back, or they're giving you advice, giving you advice based on everything that you projected out into the world. And so this is, this is what we've, you know, you and I have spoken about. It's like the amount of people who want to give us advice in regards to business decisions we make yet.
Have no concept of what our profit and loss is, what our balance sheet looks like. And so if someone's willing to give you some really solid advice about how to run your business and then not your accountant and they, or they, they don't know the inner workings, take it with a grain of salt. You got to.
But many people don't like, it is very tempting. It's easy. Not to, it's very easy to say.
Tommy Jackett: [00:42:51] It's easy not to. Yeah, because yeah, you w you want it half the time. Intentions for most people are somewhat right. Or they think they're doing you a favor, and sometimes it feels good to be told something that isn't your current situation.
What do you mean by that? Um, He's what you need to do X, Y, and Z, or I'm not fucking doing that. That's and then you convince yourself that that is kind of what I need to be doing only because it's just different from what you are doing. It's not that it's right, because it, all it is is, uh, uh, thoughts coming into this.
Person's head them, verbalizing, whatever they're thinking. And next minute, it's fucking it's.
Josh Janssen: [00:43:35] It's like scripture. Well, it's, it's tempting to follow the advice around things that you're not good at. I think like Jason Fox has done a great job around this, where things like productivity, uh, he pushes back on these concepts.
And so if you're a creative person and you feel like you're not that great at productivity, you're going to be willing to take people's advice. Think about sales. If you feel like you're not great at sales, you'll listen to people talking about sales and it might not be great advice, but because it is the opposite of what you do, you might take it, take it on.
Tommy Jackett: [00:44:20] Yeah. I mean, I don't know the answer and I haven't heard very smart people talk about anyone having the answer as to why something connects with them. And so it's like, why do I connect with a certain author in a moment in my
Josh Janssen: [00:44:35] life? Do you connect with reels?
Tommy Jackett: [00:44:39] You really you're on the reels. Um, do I connect with reels?
I, in, in the sense that I get sucked in to the way you
Josh Janssen: [00:44:51] connect with cake,
Tommy Jackett: [00:44:53] Yeah, I get sucked into cake. Just if a slice is there and I know it's going to taste good and I visually see it, I'm like, Ooh, Dan, that fucking cake's going to taste good. And then I have a bite and I feel sick after it. I could watch five reels sucked in.
Here's what I did for breakfast. I woke up and I went in, I've had this dream and I fucking saw Amanda. I got ahead today. I'm having a coffee, the end. Thanks man. I'm like, ah, yeah, I feel fucking, I've eaten five pieces of cake.
Josh Janssen: [00:45:21] What about when you go bed? And there's like an urgency to quickly scroll through the rest of the internet before you're like, ah, you know, walking, maybe someone did post something that I need to know.
It's not there. No, that's because I'm on Instagram. I need to check LinkedIn. There is a notification that's just telling me someone said it's fucked, dude.
Tommy Jackett: [00:45:42] I think about sometimes when I'm trapped in a. Scrawl hall trapped in a scrawl hall. And my son is in the room. My wife, the two people I love the most, but I mean a scrawl hall, worse than a K hole.
Dude. Can't get out of Bo either.
Josh Janssen: [00:46:01] It's a
Tommy Jackett: [00:46:01] K hole. K's a drug horse, tranquilizer, and make you feel quite nice. And K is, uh, uh, so it's like answer to them and you can, um, it's bizarre. You can literally feel like you've disconnected from your body. Mm. I was stuck in a K hole and they can't get out. It could be like 30 minutes.
It feels like a long time. Anyway, scroll hall. Similar.
Josh Janssen: [00:46:29] I was watching a document that mentioned Amazon. I remembered you've told me about that. Yeah. They call it angel.
Tommy Jackett: [00:46:37] Yeah. Maybe.
Josh Janssen: [00:46:39] I don't know. I can't remember a high@thedailytalkto.com if you remember that documentary. But he said, yeah, he said that he w he went to a club
Tommy Jackett: [00:46:50] called anal.
And
Josh Janssen: [00:46:53] so do you think it is Imal or
Tommy Jackett: [00:46:54] Amel?
Josh Janssen: [00:46:57] Oh, that's right. It got into how this guy started selling drugs. I think it was on that, uh, McDonald's DACA or just an update on the McDonald's taco should have been to it. It's six. And so it gets one real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um,
Tommy Jackett: [00:47:17] with icons McDonald's you could put it into a real, maybe you could start doing binge
Josh Janssen: [00:47:22] video, like binge in a real
Tommy Jackett: [00:47:25] 32nd recap.
Josh Janssen: [00:47:26] This is not what
Tommy Jackett: [00:47:29] you see the appeal. Josh. You could have it all mate. You can have followers money.
Josh Janssen: [00:47:34] Do you remember Instagram? Like I've created so many Instagram accounts. I have, um, uh, the flat lie, I think, like I had the flat lie.com and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm just gonna take photos of flat lays what a boring, boring life.
That's right. The, um, uh, fake, famous. Uh, by Nick Bilton. Doco. Yes. Yep. It's on bench. It is. I can't help with this. Yeah. It's on a HBR, right? I think anyway, uh, Fake famous. They take a five or so four or five people, average people who want to become famous and they turn them into, uh, uh, Insta celebrities basically, but they just buy followers.
Okay. Um, and a couple of Melbourne.
Tommy Jackett: [00:48:29] Yeah,
Josh Janssen: [00:48:30] exactly. And it's just a bit pathetic. And, uh, but the, I think that that's just an interesting, um, they, they talk about sort of setting up photo shoots. You having to feel relevant, you know, trying to like going to a gym, taking photos at a gym so that then you can try and sell yourself to try and get like private PT sessions, but you have to pay for the fit, like, you know, the, the shoot first, but, um, yeah, it was, it was directed by Nick Bilton.
Who did the, um, wrote the book, had a hatching Twitter. He's like an ex, uh, New York times technology reporter. So to the early two thousands, like mid two thousands when all the sort of social networks are coming up, um, uh, it's, it's good
Tommy Jackett: [00:49:17] to, um, I reckon there is some way, I mean, there is a life without all these things that we're talking about.
Yeah. And so,
Josh Janssen: [00:49:28] yeah, it, it seems very appealing, but I think that this is like, as we've sort of discussed, there's lots of change. In the air, people are moving. They're sort of realizing, I think 2020 was a good indication, um, to people around like, Oh, Yolo. Um, yeah. And also that this, um, uh, you know, we were all playing a version of a finite game and COVID has fucked a lot of those games.
And so then when you realize that, now hang on, Mike. I stopped doing this and life continues on. I think it's given permission for a lot of people to say on. Now I'm going to rebrand. I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to, I'm going to do that. And actually don't need social media, but the pushback is, uh, then what,
Tommy Jackett: [00:50:28] then what
Josh Janssen: [00:50:29] then what? So you get off social media. It's not going to fix your problems. You're fucked.
Tommy Jackett: [00:50:35] Are you better with it? Are you
Josh Janssen: [00:50:42] I think the thing is that the, all of these things, aren't your problem. And like how we respond, how we react. Like we, uh, Instagram, isn't telling us to do these things. We're telling it like, wait, we are giving it that white. And so the problem is that unless we fully reconcile the empty bit, that we're trying to fill, whether it be through an ego or whatever it is through these things, until we fix that, wait, we're still going to have an issue.
We're just, we're going to get off social media, but we'll do it. But
Tommy Jackett: [00:51:20] even the term fix is like maybe the. So we're assuming that something broken reconciling. Yeah. Because then, then they might not even be a place for this stuff, which has just meant that there's no, you place no energy in that area.
Therefore has no life in your life, which is, yeah. It's just another way to look at it. Cause then it will still continue to be what it is. And maybe there's less weight put on when, when people say like, Um, Facebook, isn't your problem. You, something going on internally to you, it's like it is an addictive, um, thing that is available to us.
And so is heroin is heroin. Heroin is not the problem. The person taking the heroin is a problem. Now I'm fucking say that heroin is a real problem. Yeah. Facebook just based on what it is and how accessible and it's, it's a serious. Drug it's a serious addiction that people have social media, not just Facebook.
And so they're yeah, it's, it's complex.
Josh Janssen: [00:52:29] It's very hard. And then we try and, uh, meet the complexity by saying you just need balance. You know, the, the
Tommy Jackett: [00:52:40] amount of time is JTV real few here and, you know, go between. Yeah.
Josh Janssen: [00:52:45] But, um, yeah, it's not as simple as balance and it's, um, Yeah. I mean, this is part, like, I think that this is part of like the whole self discovery thing.
Like I'm sure, like, think about even, um, older people think about our parents. Thank you for fuck. Like they just like social media, like just screw up. Like my parents have dinner with their fucking iPads up. I've got iPad holders and just fucking scrolling. Just, you know what I mean? Like it's just fucking Oh yeah.
Just saying and just like, Oh, you wouldn't believe like
Tommy Jackett: [00:53:21] Josh is doing reels again.
Josh Janssen: [00:53:24] Um, It's a, it's a weird thing. And so if you
Tommy Jackett: [00:53:29] not, if this conversation seems completely foreign, which I think it would to a bunch of people, it probably isn't an invitation that you're well, okay. I'll pose it as a question.
Is it an indication of being completely sucked into their game that they want you to play? Um, or is it just. It's not really giving, someone's not giving you as much thought as they as way up. Well, so it doesn't
Josh Janssen: [00:54:01] in the same way. I guess that's the, like, we all have how things, and I think that for us, the sort of world of, if you're a content creator,
Tommy Jackett: [00:54:15] this is
Josh Janssen: [00:54:17] like whether we liked it or not, we've sort of subscribed to play this game.
Because, unless you're in sort of the luxurious position of making long form pieces or you're, you're a hermit and you've got, you know, food and, Oh, I know it sounds good. But if
Tommy Jackett: [00:54:39] you, I think when we're looking at, so Barefoot's an example of a guy who has worked in the media for many years, wrote a book that became Uber successful.
The one of the, probably the most famous financial education book in Australia. And we've had conversations with him, actually get, if I can have a faci get a face, like you're not doing that content moment. It's like you look at a guy like that, who wasn't posting to Facebook, wasn't doing Instagram, any Twitter and you see such.
You see that he could just start and have audience, which is the obvious, right? But th these people will resist, resist, resist, and do an email list and a subscription model and, and then pulls the pin completely on all of it. And so he doesn't do the subscription model anymore. I mean, he probably just made good money out of doing it and offering heaps and heaps of value.
That's why something like his product was successful because it was of value to people. But. That if you're looking at him is the 0.1% of people that, that
Josh Janssen: [00:55:51] make it think of it. We spend a lot of time, um, comparing ourselves to massive outliers. And I think that we're an outlier for sure. Uh, I sent you a, I'm just trying to find the, uh, a real, it was it wasn't a real, uh, No.
When I was watching, um, real talk with Josh dads, I think it was, uh, Oh, that's
Tommy Jackett: [00:56:13] why that's why Louis Spears. Louis spiels. Does Louis Spears, comedian absolute fucking legend. Go follow Instagram. He makes a lot of reels, but he has a thing called real talk. I didn't even what tone did it again? Real,
Josh Janssen: [00:56:33] real talk.
Now I was, I can't find the message, but I think it was something like. A million accounts on Instagram
Tommy Jackett: [00:56:42] have already
Josh Janssen: [00:56:44] over a million followers.
Tommy Jackett: [00:56:47] Yeah. Fun fact. Over 40 million people have over
Josh Janssen: [00:56:51] a million, 570 million. That's ridiculous. A 40 million. And then how many, how many over over
Tommy Jackett: [00:56:58] 100 million people you have over a hundred thousand
Josh Janssen: [00:57:02] followers.
Yeah. So what does that tell you? I think about this with houses and shit. Look at all the it's not many people sad. You fucking kidding
Tommy Jackett: [00:57:12] in terms of the population. So the pop, I mean, not all the population is on these platforms. It'd be better to look at. So 40 million people have over a hundred million followers.
How many users do Instagram have
Josh Janssen: [00:57:30] 500 million or now it's over. Yeah.
Tommy Jackett: [00:57:33] Okay. I didn't, I didn't ask the question the right way, but if you look at that and then look at 40 million people, all of that number, what is it? I don't know if there's billions of people on the planet. And so, I mean, it is a lot of people.
Yeah. We know a handful of people that have over a million and so it's like it, that's where it's more, it's, it's more attainable than being cruise. Yeah. Anyway,
Josh Janssen: [00:57:59] well, it's a, the daily talk show. If you've got any thoughts on it. Hi, the daily talk show.com is the email address.
Tommy Jackett: [00:58:07] You can tell that we're not necessarily rammed to one side of the debate.
It is something that we constantly talk about. Social media. You've probably heard us talking ad nauseum.
Josh Janssen: [00:58:20] What about Apple reviews? It doesn't no one gives a fuck about the algorithm. Stop talking about it. It's boring.
Tommy Jackett: [00:58:26] Well, I think. Uh, everybody who just got cut from Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. But also I think
Josh Janssen: [00:58:34] that businesses, yeah.
I think so many people care. I think the thing is that it's one I know you
Tommy Jackett: [00:58:39] care about. Yeah. But when you're furious about why you're getting Sean Lee, you know, less fucking,
Josh Janssen: [00:58:46] I think that's literally, literally the person who also says. A bunch of other things I show. So it's not, it's not the algorithm.
It's them. Exactly. Enjoy your day, guys. We'll see. Say tomorrow, have a good one.