Information Diets

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 935.

Tommy: It's weekend, Bats, and we've got Whip Jess Lucas here and Mr. 97. Are you there, Mr. 97?

Mason: I'm here, I'm here.

Josh: Good.

Tommy: Just, uh, just double-checking. Yeah, Jess, you here?

Josh: You here?

Jess: I'm here.

Josh: What are you doing, Jess? You really love— like, one observation is that you do multiple things at a given time. Bree said that she even picked up on it before hump day where you looked like you were doing something else and she—

Jess: I was.

Josh: Called you out on it.

Jess: She did.

Tommy: Are you one, Jess?

Jess: I just hate doing— I hate not finishing something. So, like, I need to get things done before I start my next thing. And so, if I have the opportunity to do it, I will do it. And so, when I was on hump day, I was finishing an email just so I knew that that was ticked off my list and then I could focus on hump day and then move on to the next.

Tommy: I mean, the problem is there's always another email to send or one to read. And so it is, I mean, do you, have you ever, that's like you're sending one long, you've got one long task because they're overlapping and so you're never doing it. You want to think you can multitask, Jessica?

Jess: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jess: I don't know if I'm very good at it, but I do. I have to do like 2 things at once all the time.

Tommy: You have to do 2 things at once?

Jess: Yeah. Walking and like watching something or listening to something or used to iron, just chuck the ironing board on the washing machine.

Josh: Do you not iron anymore?

Jess: No, I don't iron at all anymore. Do you guys iron? When was the last time you ironed something? Nah.

Tommy: I mean, what's the use of an iron these days? I mean, I don't have anything good enough to iron. I was watching a TikTok, viral TikTok that was posted on news.com.au, and it was of this guy who's a chef that's in hotel quarantine. And he's flipped the iron upside down, used it as a hot plate, put over like heatproof paper or baking paper, and then made tacos with chicken. It looks so good.

Josh: I can imagine Hayden Dibb doing that. I wonder if he's done that before.

Tommy: Well, there's, there's also, um, have you seen that TikTokers in jail are going viral? And so you're not allowed mobile phones in jail, but this is what happens. The guards bring them in, or they're smuggled, you know, smuggled in somehow. But there has been people who have become famous while incarcerated.

Jess: Yeah.

Tommy: And you see Harlem Shake. Oh yeah, quite old school.

Mason: Good vibe.

Tommy: Good old reference vibe.

Mason: It's not good having people in prison on a platform that's primarily built for kids, is it?

Josh: No, it's not good.

Tommy: No, it's not a good look. Like, I know what you mean, because the— this is the problem. This is why the rules that they don't— aren't allowed. So you're not wrong in thinking it's not, not, not on. But the ones that are doing well are actually being quite, uh, you know, quite entertaining, or sharing a side that No, it's like how to, how to make, um, a cake in prison or how to cook. Like, they've got shit like they, um, how to light a cigarette or, um, underneath the bed. So my top 5 favourite murderer TikTokers, half of them are like low-level, low-level crimes. Um, tax fraud. There was a— yeah, you're allowed on TikTok if you've done tax fraud. It's okay. Underneath the mattress is this hard metal metal surface. This is like fucking whatever it is, steel. And that you can see an area where they light a thing underneath it, and they've created a hot plate underneath their bed on this specific spot. And so some of them just want coffee, some of them just want to heat the water to have a, you know, dirty little instant coffee. But it's, um, they're not even allowed that. So I mean, that's why they're in jail, right? They've had all privileges taken. But humans are very resourceful. Very resourceful.

Jess: I watched something where a lady, they would put makeup on, but they would use coffee granules as their eyeshadow and as their mascara and things like that. Eyebrows.

Tommy: Animals. And then—

Jess: I know.

Josh: Doesn't look good.

Tommy: And then they'd—

Jess: No. Wouldn't it wipe off?

Tommy: Like, it'd go off on your clothes, wouldn't it?

Jess: They can't blend it properly, can they?

Tommy: Yeah, Blend 43, Blend whatever it is. Um, Jess, have you at all got into— I mean, you did a boxing match, famously knocked a woman's eyelashes out. They were fakes, it wasn't somehow you knocked out her actual eyes. Have you been watching any of the, the buzz around the celebrity boxing scene at the moment?

Jess: No, not really, to be honest.

Tommy: I mean, um, nah.

Josh: Where are you consuming— like, where— I haven't seen any of this. I haven't seen a single TikToker in jail, like, um, jail TikToker. I haven't seen any of the boxing stuff. Where do you— like, what is the concert?

Tommy: If you just went on news.com, literally they've got it all. They've got it all there. It's— I mean, this is not a paid ad, but, um, sometimes it's got it all. Very hit and miss, uh, you know, Lewis Hamilton Biden has coronavirus and Trump has got something else. You know, Trump's doing something else. It's got everything, mate. And so, that's where I'm—

Jess: So, there's stuff around— China's released a new picture.

Josh: What was that, Jess?

Jess: China's released a new picture.

Josh: Oh, yeah.

Mason: That's not good.

Jess: Of us, of Australia.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, I wasn't going to go there, but yeah.

Josh: I mean, yeah. So, on the celebrity boxing stuff, what's happening?

Tommy: Oh, so you've got Mike Tyson, one of the greatest heavy heavyweight champions of the world, you know, he's 50-something fighting someone else who is the champion in their own right, similar league, bit younger, but then they're going head-to-head. But what they— what he's doing is creating a company that's bringing retired people in different sports together to play off against each other. So you could get, you know, Pat Rafter— this is a local— like Pat Rafter versus Leighton Hewitt.

Josh: Yeah, but that's not Craig Parry the golfer just fucking belting. Have you seen it?

Tommy: No, I haven't seen that. The, um, or what's a better example? Someone over in the States, like a big— boxing's very simple because there's, you know, it's Andrew Gaze versus— well, these are all Australian references. Um, okay, Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan up against, uh, Larry Bird., and so they go head-to-head or something. And so these are all— it's becoming like a spectacle sport where there's a lot of money to be made, but a lot of people want to watch it too. But where, where the other side of it is happening is YouTubers, uh, versing other YouTubers, or, you know, Instagram people are fighting other Instagram people. It's happening. Like Kieran Scott, uh, who you had on, um, Too Much Telly, Jess, is doing a boxing match next year. But it's huge, and I just want to put you forward, Jess, as a producer against another podcast producer. If we can find one, would you take that? Would you take—

Jess: Oh, what about Kelly and I?

Josh: What about, um, you versus She's on the Money producer Ryan John?

Jess: I mean, yeah, sure. I feel like we would, you know, the male-female issue. Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Tommy: Okay.

Jess: I feel like we're same height and that's why I went.

Josh: Okay, perfect. So, Ryan John.

Tommy: Ryan John's 6'2".

Josh: Jess, can you put out a message to Ryan John? He's currently arguing.

Tommy: This is calling out, Jess.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, sorry, calling out. You need to call out Ryan John now. What do you want to say to Ryan?

Jess: Ryan John, I'm the greatest fighter of all time. I'm undefeated. And I want to see you in the ring.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Um, would you, would you fight again, Jess?

Josh: She's fine with Ryan.

Jess: Um, would I? I think I would, to be honest, now that I'm— yeah, I probably would.

Tommy: Well, it makes sense.

Jess: Well, I just know what to expect now, and I think if it was still an amateur fight, like, I I couldn't be bothered actually doing it seriously kind of thing. Yeah. Even though it is serious, like you still get punched, but it's, it's just, it's still amateur, so it feels like it's not, it's not the real thing. Serious, maybe? I don't know.

Tommy: Well, these, so these YouTubers, these YouTubers are actually getting their pro card, which means that they can fight and get, like, get their numbers up within the pro arena, so they could fight very experienced boxers and they, and they get class and that means that they can, they don't have to wear headgear and there's a whole bunch of stuff. Lucky for you, no headgear.

Jess: I didn't wear headgear.

Tommy: You didn't? No, no, you, yeah.

Josh: And so, you're all good.

Tommy: Did you think you would, when you fought, where can people find your fight? Can we, can we find, like, how do we, we'll just put it in the description of show notes.

Jess: It's embarrassing there.

Josh: Um, Mason, can we actually do a blog post on the Daily Talk Show with the embedded video so people can find it with a time?

Jess: I don't know if people actually care, to be honest.

Josh: I think some people really enjoy it.

Tommy: Ryan, I mean, when the title is Ryan John, you're next, I think people will care. But it's, it's worth saying. But did you think you were going to win it when you, when when you were in the— when you— when the bell went for the final round?

Jess: Can I tell you, I— if I didn't think I was going to win, I wouldn't have gone through with it. Like, I knew who I was fighting, like, halfway through. I probably would have pulled out if I knew who— if there was— if I was matched up against some of the other girls. Yeah, I don't know if I could have gone through. I just knew. I don't know.

Josh: You're an absolute coward.

Jess: If you look at the lady that I fought, um, I was like, I surely— I can— I'm fitter than her. Yeah. Smaller than her. She actually threw a really good punch, like she was good when she got in there. But I just knew that I could do it. And I think that's what I need to do in life. As long as I know that I can achieve something, I'll do it.

Josh: But you basically punched her into a retirement home. Is that true?

Jess: It is true. Yeah.

Tommy: She's—

Josh: I mean, the interesting thing, the boxing thing, I feel like this is the equivalent of when I talk about Rick Steves, you sort of glaze over. Boxing doesn't interest me. Fighting, UFC, I just can't.

Tommy: I'm safe to say that there's more people interested in boxing and UFC than there is Rick Steves. Oh, I don't know, actually.

Josh: Yeah.

Jess: Josh, if Tommy and I went in a fight, would you come and watch?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. I would get like, Sevs and I went and supported PJ when she had a fight. Yeah, I think we would come, but it's definitely in those moments. I definitely don't feel like it is my scene and it's never— Sometimes, you know, you go somewhere and you're like, this could be my scene, or I could see myself like getting to learn more about this and getting to know the people and becoming friends with people. But it's definitely when I go to something like a boxing match.

Mason: I mean, you nearly had a punch on with the person behind us.

Josh: Yeah, that's true. Someone asked us to— Yeah, because we sort of went in front of them and he was sort of at a stool and a seat area type of thing, and then he was just expecting no one to stand between the stool and the seat, like the, um, table. And it was like fucking 5 metres between that and the ring. And so we just stood in between him and the ring and he's like, mate, you're completely blocking our view. And I think I pushed back a little bit.

Mason: Yeah, you push back.

Tommy: Yeah. But what did you say?

Josh: I think I was just like a bit bemused because I just sort of turn around. I'm like, oh, you, the guy that's all over there, you're worried about where I'm standing here? You fucking idiot. If you want it, if you want front row seats, come to the front row.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: So someone complaining that the fucking—

Mason: Yeah, just stand up.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, going to like, look at that.

Josh: He cared more than I did though. That was the whole thing. I realised in this moment, I'm like, oh, this guy. Really cares. And so I was like, actually, you know, if I don't see every punch, I'm gonna be okay.

Tommy: Yeah, I think what you could get out— it could— you don't even need to be into the boxing. It's the fanfare around it. It's the savagery. It's the online, um, sort of, uh, taunting. Not even— it's not even trolling. It's like it's almost controlled to the fact that they are going to— it's, it's hype. It is marketing. And so when you have someone like Shameless talking about someone like Jake Paul, he's one at the point of like, he's stirring the pot. He's a— he's the guy that boxed recently on the Tyson card.

Josh: But what was Shameless saying about it?

Tommy: About him? Uh, they were referencing his interview where he was asked about coronavirus and whether it was a hoax.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: And the kid doesn't give a fuck. He's, he's a kid with fucking $20 million and he's at the centre of boxing at the moment. And he's just—

Josh: Do you find it aspirational? Do you find this stuff aspirational?

Tommy: What aspirational?

Josh: Just like that lifestyle that they have, like the Jake— like the Pauls and stuff like that.

Tommy: Oh, not, not— I, I not— So I— what I do like is the thought of— not that I'm going to do it, but like they are doing a single thing. They're getting— they're making good money and they're just not— they're not— it's this weird thing where it's like an athlete, someone who is an NBA player, is like offseason doing their training. There's like this thing that people are dropping into the world of an athlete and getting paid serious money to do it, but they're not necessarily coming in the avenues like, uh, you're doing amateur boxing from young kid, you get into, you know, higher level, you're starting doing competitions. These people are dropping in and acting like athletes and being able to compete and make money through a different way. So I don't mind that. I don't— his lifestyle, what he's a, you know, young kid who's fucking working it all out, but it's like, that's not what's appealing. But I do like— Josh, um, just think about when you were training and you were serious about it. Imagine if you got to do that and that was your only focus for 6 months and it came up to this time, like you got to train, you got to eat That's what I kind of like the thought of.

Josh: Like, what about the rah-rah? So then in that regard, wouldn't it be more appealing to have the professional athlete who it's just like they're not doing the big sort of trolling stuff and all that sort of thing and just focused and meditating on the process and showing up every day and working on that?

Tommy: Yeah, but that doesn't sell tickets, mate.

Jess: Not that they should do that as well. They all do, like the trolling. Yeah.

Tommy: Conor McGregor, think about him. Do you know him? Do you know who he is? How entertaining is that guy?

Josh: I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't like it. Yeah, I don't, I don't really, um, I don't get into it.

Tommy: But so, I mean, his gloves are more entertaining than Rick, Rick Steves or whatever that guy's name is. What's his name?

Josh: Well, I mean, Rick, is it Rick Steves? Because it's like his going— he's getting to go around the world and he's exploring stuff and he's learning. He's doing something he loves and he's learning, and he's, he's also making bank as well.

Tommy: It's literally— that is just replace Rick Steves to Conor McGregor, and that's other than some of the other bullshit that comes with it.

Mason: The only way Rick Steves is going to get concussion is slipping downstairs, you know, just slipping down on the air.

Josh: That's very true. So what's the— if we look at our information diet 2021, there's a, there's a whole book, I think it's called The Information Diet, that talks about how important it is to think about what we're consuming. And I definitely know the things that I'll consume where I'm not necessarily being productive, and then the stuff where I'm feeling good. Has anyone got any thoughts on— Jess, maybe start with you— what you currently consume from a content and information perspective, and what you want 2021 to be like?

Jess: You're gonna hate what I say.

Josh: No, there's no—

Jess: sorry, I—

Josh: okay, it's a personal choice.

Jess: I read books. I read more self-help books, I suppose, is the category. Um, this is not what you're gonna hate. You'll probably appreciate this. So like your Brené Browns, um, Glennon Doyles, those types of people.

Josh: I was a joke. No, I just said I hate—

Jess: better not hate Brené.

Josh: I was joking. I love Brené.

Mason: Uh, yeah, go on.

Jess: And then I also read into a lot of astrology and psychic readings and that kind of stuff, so I still consume that once a month.

Josh: So what does that look like?

Mason: Is that co-star?

Jess: Sorry, it's YouTube. Um, okay. I mean, the one guy that I love and I do watch religiously every month is Nicholas Ashbaugh, and he, he does— he pulls cards for your star sign.. And so I, I listen to that. I mean, you can take it and leave it. It's more so just like, it's that whole, um, it's kind of like manifestation, I suppose. And you can read into it as much as you want to, or just have a— take that lens and apply it to your life if you believe in that stuff. Um, and then what else? I mean, I do do a lot of, um, YouTube holes and then social media and that kind of stuff, so I wouldn't mind cutting back on that.

Josh: So what's the, um, what in the ideal scenario, what's the 3 top apps and 3 websites that 2020, if you look to look at your screen time for 2021, what does it look like?

Jess: I mean, I think Messages and Instagram are always going to be up there, but Mindfulness, the Mindfulness app by Sam Harris, um, that Tommy got me onto, been using that. Would like to see that increase a little bit more. Um, is this the Wake, Waking Up?

Tommy: Yeah, no waking up.

Jess: There's not really any other apps that like I use or would need for what I use.

Josh: How often are you checking news sites?

Jess: I cheque that all the time, like probably every hour, just in case something breaks.

Tommy: Is that the old PR sort of, you know, gal coming out? Just need to check.

Jess: I think there's always going to be a new sound. Like, I just like being on top of what's happening in the world.

Josh: I mean, there used to be— I remember there was a, there was a search service which ended up shutting down. It was called Breaking News, and they had an iOS app, and it would send you push notifications on all breaking news all around the world. And you would get— you get a notification at least every hour of something that's happening. It's very full-on. But they ended up closing down. But it was a— it's a different— my mate Naysan got me onto it, who has a sort of a news background, but it's very sort of, um, It could be pretty toxic.

Tommy: I think the problem with breaking news is someone's decided if it's breaking news. If it's not fucking a natural disaster, an economic fucking downturn, or something big that's happening, it's breaking news. What's a piece of breaking news, Jess, in the last week that you've actually seen? What's it— and what do you classify as breaking news?

Jess: Um, I mean, it's not— I'm not even after breaking news. It's more so just like, yeah, what the news of the day is, I suppose. I mean, if, you know, the planes crash like the MH7, whatever it was like that, remember when that was all happening, like keeping up with that, or even like the latest in like, um, you know, the China-Australia, um, fight that's probably gonna happen. Um, just keeping up to date with that.

Tommy: He thinks it's a celebrity YouTube boxing match. That's how I come at it. Oh, this is fun. That's me with a celebrity boxing glove.

Josh: Oh my God.

Tommy: Oh no. A newshound is a newspaper reporter. So, you are the newshound to us. So, you're a reporter of the newspaper to us. That can be a new segment. Do you read the actual physical newspaper?

Jess: Okay, here we go.

Tommy: Do you buy it?

Jess: What about, so I wouldn't mind being a little bit more like Chris or Andrews, Where I— because I just skim stuff, so I know about stuff, but I don't dig into it and maybe understand it to the full extent. So maybe that could be my New Year's resolution of actually understanding both sides and forming an opinion on something.

Josh: So what about like slow news? Like, this is the thing, this is the aspirational thing that I've tried to do for so many years, I'm yet to actually properly implement it. It's like if you start reading stuff— this is why I got all the fucking Iran You know, Gronkh, Jake dropped off a bunch of books on Iran. The thing is, I read these articles and you see the breaking news on, you know, an assassination in Iran or whatever it is, and you're reading that. But the thing is, you realise it's like, how can I possibly read this with any form of critical thinking if I don't understand the history of it? And so, it almost feels like you're just reading some random some stranger off the street, you're just reading a breaking news based on them. It's like, and so, that's for me, that slow news of like if there's an article that interests me or even say the stuff that's happening with China, it's like, okay, like what is this whole South China Sea thing? How long has it been happening? Like what is that actual region? Who's involved?

Tommy: It's the sugar, though. Like the news headlines that you get into, Jess, and the short articles is the sugar. It's the hit. If you, Josh, read every book behind you, like it would take you years and years. And if you read— if you consume nothing else, how much smarter would you be based on all of those books behind you versus a daily diet of sugar, i.e., headline media?

Josh: Yeah, and that's the thing, right? That's what, um, I think that the— that's the aspirate. I think that I want to hold on to that as an— as the aspiration of the thing that I want to do. I can see the appeal of, you know, this social media stuff or going to the news sites or things like that. But it's like, if you can— I think I got— there was a moment, must have been, there was a time, I don't know if it was before, no, after I— when I came back from my trip where when I had my social media retirement and I actually read books from start to finish and I read like 2 or 3 in a summer and I was like, that was ridiculous for me. And so, I think there's a little bit from an information perspective I'd like to get to that.

Tommy: But then are you feeling like you're missing out? Because there is something about—

Josh: Not at all.

Tommy: Like, so, us doing this show. Then why do you do it? I think it's like it's either an addiction that you do 100%—

Josh: Well, this is the sugar thing, right? It's like, do you feel better or do you gain anything from scrolling on social media? And the answer that I keep landing on is no. But we still do it.

Tommy: But then, so if— yeah, I guess there— what if the answer is no? I believe you, but I'm like, if the answer is no, then why do you keep doing it? Because you could also build the argument for that you do, you know, end up sort of for, for this, for what we do. Like, if you were a university professor that was just needing to write papers about, you know, chlamydia— I don't know why that came to mind— but, and so you're researching those topics, you're not getting anything out of reading the newspaper, whereas sometimes you bring up some gems of shit that you've found or seen online that it— so what I'm saying is your— our role of what we do here, or Jess, you know, you've been in PR and under needing to understand trends, or it's like social media, you're doing content for people.

Josh: But there's a difference between— there's a difference between doing a celebrity show where you have to do that versus some depth. Like, I think about like the, um, the Lost Connections book and thinking about that. Like, I think every time I read a book, I actually end up connecting with the writing in a bigger way. Think about like the Messy Middle or, um, It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work. These things—

Tommy: the barrier to buy those books behind you has been very high, and so you need interest.

Josh: But also, not only that, think about the barrier to entry in creating a book. You need an editor. There needs to be so much extra thought that goes into it, where it's like the stuff that goes out online, the social media stuff, the new stuff, it is like— there is a lot of trash out there. And so the hit rate, like, for finding a good piece of content that actually moves you forward or is positive is way lower, I think, than a book. Because think about like the barrier of like Think about if every time we followed someone on Instagram, we took the approach that we did with a bookshop where like buying a book. Think about how much time we give to thinking about the book, like looking at the blurb. Oh, do I want to spend $35 on this? Is okay, is this interest? Am I going to consume it? Like we fucking just tapping away following people randomly.

Mason: Well, imagine if you had to pay $5 to follow someone.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mason: What would happen then?

Tommy: You would be— I'd be deleting you for sure.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's a good point.

Tommy: They're great.

Josh: That the, um, I would stop.

Tommy: I'm a tight-ass.

Josh: I wouldn't—

Tommy: it's not worth it. But you're right, Josh. It's like, imagine paying to look at the free news site. So I've got to— I don't pay for any news site, but even imagine if I had to pay for the free ones, it wouldn't make sense because you're like, I only look at it it makes you even reassess the thought of I only look at it because it's free. It's like, no, I probably— why do I look at it? It probably has just become some silly habit of, you know, a sugar hit or a crutch, a behavioural crutch.

Jess: And so then what are the reasons why you don't want to use Instagram? Like, in an ideal world, yeah, what are the reasons? If— because obviously you did retire from social, you're kind of back on now dabbling, but what are the main reasons for getting rid of it?

Tommy: 8 hours of that.

Josh: No, so I think, um, it is— so, yeah, tapping.

Jess: Not to be confused with that.

Josh: I think, um, it has to do with, uh, you're getting your, um— if you think about how the content is created, it is in these micro moments. So if you think about the action of a scroll, think of how much scrolling you could do in a minute and then think about how many different ideas, thoughts, people, places you end up consuming all of this stuff. But it's actually— there's not— I don't believe that with the content that we're consuming on Instagram, there's enough time for us to have a critical moment and to think about it in a way that's positive. I also think that I've got a thought.

Tommy: I need to bring it.

Josh: Oh yeah, uh, I think that also there's, there's the fact of like, if we think about the world of, you know, we're all just, uh, you know, triggered by different things. Social media is this huge opportunity just to be unnecessarily, uh, mentally impacted every single day because it's like, okay, so I'm And the other, the other thing is we're constantly getting sold to on Instagram. Think about how many ads there are. And so we're scrolling through and it's like, you know, you, you look online for, for some sort of product and then that product appears on your— it starts following you around. And so the different— all of a sudden you can't escape your own thinking or being manipulated in that way versus Okay, I'm going to have a single— So, books obviously are still designed to design a narrative. They're trying to convince you of something, but it is a single focus approach which allows you to put your critical thinking and then connecting dots in interesting ways. Whereas with social media, who is connecting that? Who is saying that this post goes underneath this post and then this post. And so, all of a sudden, we're creating this just random traffic of information that has actual— actually no through line, no narrative. And I think that that's like super overwhelming.

Tommy: Do you think that looking at what you create versus what you want to consume— not maybe what you are consuming, but say it is more of that thoughtful, mindful content, do you think you need to be in alignment as a creator with what you consume and what you create? Because if you are creating something that maybe— yeah, do you think— what do you think about that?

Josh: So I think that the— if you look at reach and you look at impact, to have reach and impact, you need to go where people are. And so the thing is that most people won't be— like, the other thing is, like, people don't all think the same. So the fact that it impacts me, not even like mentally, but just my ability to get things done and all that sort of thing, it doesn't have that same impact for other people. And so this idea that everyone should be off social media or this or that, like, I don't believe that. And so I think that there's the, the opportunity to be present and to provide a voice on these platforms, which then promotes longer listening, like podcasts, which I think gives people the opportunity to get out of that sort of, you know, these sharp hits of information.

Jess: Do you think though that maybe you look at Instagram in a different lens? Because you're talking about Instagram now as a platform for content, whereas I think I perceive the Instagram and Facebook as a way to stay in touch with friends, and I don't look at it as content kind of thing. Like, it's more so just like, oh, someone's got engaged, or this person's just had a baby, or Josh is doing this this weekend.

Josh: And so, how do you then— So, if you think about it in that regards, how— When do you think about someone? When do you think about a friend? When do you engage or interact with them? It's when an algorithm serves you up content that tells you. So, for instance, if I don't post, all of a sudden within the context of relevancy, I'm not necessarily—

Jess: For example, I think about you every day.

Josh: Thank you. I appreciate it. But think about— The— think about how the different versions or— Yeah, I think that that's part of the problem. I think that this idea of relying on a computer system or an algorithm to determine, okay, like there's so many people where I think about it, I'm like, if I wasn't on Instagram, I would never think about this person. But like, think about the random people that you met 7 years ago who you actually know everything about them, you know, every one of their milestones. You've never actually, like, you met them once, twice, maybe 3 times, but you still are connected. That never used to happen. And so—

Tommy: It's a weird new phenomenon.

Jess: Yeah.

Josh: And so, the thing is, then we end up with this huge, huge section of people that we end up connected with that all have varying opinions and ideas. And then all of a sudden, like, it's so overwhelming. Like, how much can we— Like, if I'm following, you know, 900 people or whatever it is I'm following, can I really keep up to date with 900 people and what they're doing? And so, I think, yeah, I think that it's a terrible way to stay connected with people. And I think that for the most part, the other thing is, if you look at what Instagram I think does pretty well, is it does emulate what we're doing in the real world anyway. So if you look at it, it's like we're always seeing each other's content. If you look at like the automated close friends group that they create, it's actually people that you are interacting with day to day and all of that sort of thing.. And so, if that's the case, I would just prefer to have the extra level, which is, you know, actually making an active effort to connect the dots myself. And I feel like then I'm going to create stronger, deeper connections with a few, which I would prefer rather than weak connections of many.

Tommy: I think that the hard bit is one thing actually takes effort. So you wanting to connect with small amounts of people, like, uh, think about calendarizing when you're going to touch base with somebody, or like, whereas the, the sugar hit approach of social media is you're on there. It's like, it's like walking into a room when there's 50 people in there. You're more likely to spark up convo with a few people and remember a few things versus the other way, which I think what I agree with you, it's just harder. I think it's harder, but generates a deeper level of connection if you are able to do it the other way.

Josh: Yeah.

Jess: What about just mindful, mindful doing nothing? So, sometimes I get in these moods where I don't feel like reading or consuming that kind of content, but I can just look at my screen because it's something to do. Otherwise, I'm just sitting there with my thoughts. Kind of thing.

Tommy: But what about just sitting there with your thoughts? I think that's the biggest— that's the deeper challenge for all of us, that it is a stimulation device. It gets your mind thinking. You're thinking about some bloke you met 7 years ago, don't give a shit about, but know every kid that he's had and his favourite color. But the challenge is, it's like boredom. Boredom's the inability to be alone with your own thoughts.

Jess: It's like sometimes you just don't want to. That's what I like.

Josh: That's the resistance, Jess, I think, to progress in a lot of ways. Like, I think that, that— because I don't think that using external sources to remedy the internal things that are going on is just putting off the thing that you need to do. That's how I feel anyway. And I like, I definitely do it. I think that like, that's where like overworking comes in or going from one, uh, problem to another problem. But there is, yeah, I think that there's something exciting about simplifying and saying, okay, yeah, I'm just going to be like, how do you— talking to Pete Shepherd about this the other day, like, how do you just make sure that you're bored on your break. And that was to your point, TJ, the other day where it's like Christmas, you go from one thing to another thing. Like, I want to make sure that I have huge opportunities just to be bored and then be a little bit antsy, but then sit in it, not doing anything crazy, go for a walk. Because normally the tool is it's like feeling a bit antsy, get out my computer, start doing some things. What could I work on? What can I do with this energy? But like, what if you use the energy in a different way? What if you, you know, did a 20K walk or, you know, things like that? Like, what would happen in that regard? Sebs, what do you think about— like, I think that you've had a different experience because you're not that active personally on social media.

Mason: Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think if I didn't if I wasn't in like on the Daily Talk Show's social, like day-to-day or whatever, uploading, I think I would completely eliminate it. Like, I don't have, I don't have any Facebook or anything like that that I'm actively on. Um, but like, I, I think one of my things over the holidays I want to do is, um, like I've set up like the RSS feeds for the news sites that I want to be getting stuff from, and so I've at the moment it's just like The Verge and then I've got Pete's blog noodle-scratches.com and then also Seth's blog as well. And so, and like this scientific one and then I've got a few tweets of people sort of like compiling information and doing all that work of getting it all, figuring it out and then delivering it in a, you know, a simple piece that I can then interpret. So I've got that, but then I think the next step is like having— yeah, thinking about the sort of broader global stuff. So like I've, I've dabbled in like ABC, but I'd love to get into like the slow news of like ZFeed and what Crystal does, because I think that's really like thought-provoking. So having, having that, um, set up in Ear and RSS app is what I want to, you know, I want to do over the holidays. But yeah, just, I, I think I'm probably similar to you, Josh. Like, I just much prefer have the actual connection with someone rather than like, like, because you get into the whole thing of like comparing yourself. What are they doing? I'm not doing that. Like, I just, I don't— for me personally, I don't see a heap of value in being on social media. Like, it just— like, I love talking to people and I love texting with them, but it's just like Having that and then like, you know, Facebook Messenger, all that's like, I just don't need any of that.

Tommy: I mean, there's, there's a version of, uh, these platforms need a whole bunch of people, uh, who are unaware of the, the things we're talking about. Not in a like, oh, you don't know what, you know, what we're just—

Josh: the majority of people on the platforms.

Tommy: Exactly. And so until you start articulating these things and having realisations there is no under— like, someone might totally just be like, Josh, fucking turn your phone off. Or like, until you look at yourself and understand where, where a moment of, um, you know, comparison comes in and when you are triggered. Or the person who's probably triggered by everything on social media might not be aware that that is a— that is how it's all happening. They're just responsive. And so that's where it is. It's like people who are plugged in, you know, people who not aren't awake but aren't aware for this in some areas. I think I like— it's a trap though because it's so— the way it's designed is perfectly and beautifully to make you less aware.

Josh: But isn't that like— I think like food is a good example where it's like if you're hungry um, then you can make a case that you need to eat something. And so social media is like chocolate cake. It will give you a sense of certain things. So say if we look at connectedness, if we think of social media as like that's providing a connection, and so if we're seeking, if we've got sort of this emptiness and we're like, okay, I need to feel connected What we're doing at the moment is we have fucking only chocolate cake in the fridge, and that's what it's like. Okay, I'm feeling hungry, I need to have something, I'm having the chocolate cake. And the problem is if you're having chocolate cake all the time, the first time you have a salad, it's not going to taste that good. And it's like reading a book. The first time you fucking read a book in 6 months, you're only going to get through 2 or 3 pages and be like this isn't fucking feeling good. It's because you've had this crazy— like, the, the previous version, the chocolate cake, is going to give you a thing, like a much bigger response quickly, which you're going to be able to feel and that will impact you. And so your body becomes acclimatised to that, and that's what it suddenly expects. And so there is a version which is like the, um— if we think about social media, we think about information as just like we're seeking to be seeking to connect with people, it does require weeks and weeks of not having social media as the option. And I feel like, using the analogy of food, it's like there's some people who say it's a balance. You can have chocolate cake sometimes, but then just make sure that you're having a lot of plant-based food, all that sort of thing. But then there's other people where it's like, if I have chocolate cake in the fucking house I will eat it. And so for me, what I've learned is if I have it in the fucking house, I'll eat it. And just like with the apps, if I have the app, like, I'll eat the most amount of chocolate cake possible. And just like social media, I'll fucking scroll for hours on Instagram.

Tommy: Is that why I get to the end of everyone's stories?

Josh: Exactly. I'll get to the end of the internet. And so for me, it's like, that doesn't mean the feeling that I have in regards to the social media, the chocolate cake, the problem is that there's so much identity to it, right? It's like in some regards, like the problem is not only am I using social media, I was like chocolate cake lead at a company. Like for my job, I've specialised in chocolate cake. I've been the chocolate cake guy. I talk about chocolate cake at work.

Mason: Head of chocolate cake.

Josh: Head of chocolate cake.

Tommy: Is this currently?

Josh: So, well, I mean, From a social media perspective, I think that they're like, I especially, uh, I was gonna say young people, yeah, fuck, I keep saying that, like people who are just coming up in their career, social media is a great and enticing communications tool that you can latch onto because you, if you're a digital native, you can get in there and you can leapfrog other people, or you can get really far in your career, you can get to senior roles Because like it's all fairly new, but the risk is depth. And so, that's what I'm trying, like, and the thing is that like I've, I try this every single year. I get a little bit better, a little bit more, like I learn a little bit more. I think that sometimes it can feel like, oh, there's no progress. Then I think about it, it's like, no, I am learning stuff, I am doing stuff. And so, it's different for everyone. For, I think for me too. Having the podcast makes the whole social media thing actually a lot more, a lot easier for me because I'm like, this is the creative expression. For a lot of people, the people who want to make a feature film or they want to do something like their version, their creative itch, rather than doing that, rather than writing a book, they're writing a, they're doing a tweet. And so I think that, you know, that, yeah, it's hard to scratch it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jess: I think what we all need to do is just have the sugar-free, gluten-free chocolate cake.

Mason: Oh my God. Oh no.

Tommy: What's in it then?

Jess: That's what I'm trying to do. I feel like I've got a healthy relationship with social media.

Tommy: Well, you know, I guess it then is like, what's your goal though? Because you—

Josh: that's the whole thing, isn't it?

Tommy: If you say I've got a healthy relationship, but you've only just cracked the 1,000 mark of your followers and you posted 7 months ago for the first time.

Mason: Oh, ouch.

Tommy: But that That would sting if your goal was, I wanna be a social media influencer, I wanna grow things. So I don't think that is you, but have you thought about it, Jess? Have you thought, I mean, you've only just opened up your Facebook, Instagram this year, thanks to the guy who loves chocolate cake.

Josh: Chocolate cake guy.

Tommy: He actually wanted you to, he loves watching you eat chocolate cake. That's how much he loves fucking you. And so what are your goals, Jess? Which I, I think I asked that, it's like some people who aren't wanting to be, you know, content creators online, it seems like a silly question. But I think that's where if you were to ask yourself, what's your goal with social media? Even if your goal isn't create a large following and make money out of it, there's still something that you're— if you did frame it around, what do I want out of this? What's the goal? What am I going to get? It wouldn't make you question it in a different way, which I don't think a lot of people would think about what's my goal with social media. That's a silly question. I've got no fucking goal.

Mason: But then what's—

Josh: I mean, what's the goal of eating the chocolate cake? But seriously, like, that's what it— like, this is why it's the reason why the social media thing seems silly is because that for 99% of the people that are on there, it's like a decision of what am I going to have for breakfast. It's not this existential crisis. But the thing is that you do it for a bunch of time and then you're like, oh, hang on, this is actually affecting who I am and impacting who I could potentially be in the future.

Mason: I think, I think there's also like somewhat of a responsibility on creators as well, because like you hear like everything— what is your social media strategy? Like, when are you hearing what's your website strategy? What's your email strategy? Like, those other forms of communication, like the amount of time that's put into, you know, snippets and stuff for us. Like, what about an email every week with an update from everyone on the team? Like, just things like that where, where there, there is that offering that is outside of, you know, social media where we can actually communicate with people.

Josh: Yeah, I think that they're more far-reaching, I suppose. What was that, Jess?

Jess: It's probably just not as far-reaching.

Mason: Yeah, I think, well, I mean, think about like if so snippets or whatever might get 30, 50 views. If you've got an email list with, you know, 200, 300 people on it and 30 people open it and read through the whole thing, like I think that connection with what we're doing and people reading that has way more cut-through than just, you know, a post on Instagram.

Tommy: But the chocolate cake versus the, uh, you know, the raw slice that you've made, you may stay leaner off the raw slice. It's going to take you a long time. That chocolate cake which you're talking about, Seb's 50 people watching you eat chocolate cake, it's like, it's You know what I mean? Like, it's— it is the toughest thing. And so the decision— and the worst thing is, it's like, Josh, the decision— you were the guy off social media. It's like, you've obviously come back on. Chocolate cake was too addictive for you. What is that? If you— if you are to make a decision, it's— there's too— this is the thing. People are fearful that it will impact my career, my business, my life, my friendships. That's fucked, that there is a fear in people, whether you identify the fear or not.

Josh: It completely will. But what if it does it in a positive way? Yeah, what if the relationships that you have have more value? What if the, you know, like, what about if that time that, like, what about if anxiety for a large majority of people were created based on the thing that they, they hold every single day. And so the thing is that we consume stuff, we spend all of the time on the phone, and then we go to the fucking psychologists and we, you know, take medication, we do all this sort of stuff. It's like, hang on, like, what about like, surely if we think about how impactful a phone is, if we think, if we actually think about, it's like, okay, well, why don't we address the biggest impactor in our life, which I think is the phone? For a lot of people. Yeah, speaking of social media, yeah, yeah, uh, JB's just slacked saying I think it's time for a blue tick.

Tommy: Us to get a blue tick on social media. Yeah, this is how you, how you get one.

Josh: Uh, great. But I mean, where do you go from here?

Tommy: Where do you go from here?

Josh: Well, so the— it's the information stuff. So I think like, um, it's It's identifying, like you are, just like you are what you eat, you are what you consume from an information perspective.

Mason: Yeah, order what you're eating.

Josh: Yeah, and so yeah, I think that it's like going through and say—

Tommy: But what about the 80/20 rule? Like if there is a 20% of chocolate cake, shit that you do eat, are you the 20% of shit that you eat? Technically, I mean, in the moment that you're having it, you are that, but it is affecting how you weigh the world.

Josh: How many people are doing that? And so the thing is that it feels radical. I feel like at the moment that doing that 20% version would feel radical for anyone if they were doing it. So I think that, that doing that 80/20 sort of rule, if you were doing 20% social media, I think that most people would feel it in a big way in regards to like, oh, I don't have the— like if you say, okay, I'm going to only do a day a week, which is something that I was like doing for a bit. But it's just so, you have to, like, you have to constantly, you have to constantly push back. Like, society, our jobs, everything is pushing for us to be there because it seems like, it's like you're in a room and next door you're hearing noise constantly, you're hearing moment. And so, you're hearing laughter, you're hearing all of this sort of stuff, and it's very tempting to go out and see what's happening. And so, I think that there's a—

Tommy: It's very true. But you said this week that, which was great, it was like the pain is the signal of progress.

Josh: And that's exactly it. And so, this is the thing is it's like if we're seeking Instagram or like I'm using Instagram as the example, but this could be anything that you do where you end up not feeling good. How many things in your life are there, like, are there that are things that you constantly do and you always feel worse off based on it? It's like, well, how do you, how do you replace that? How do you say, okay, like, in this moment, like, it's only going to last a few seconds, that like twitch to go and download Instagram or get it back on and just quickly cheque something? Or for me, for so long, it was like the Uh, podcast analytics. Like, I would cheque podcast analytics every half an hour. I'd be just like, really? Just refresh.

Tommy: What have you been doing this week? As in, what's— if there's a—

Josh: so the goal is there, it's like, uh, going— so I don't have Twitter on my phone, but I'll go into Chrome, I'll go into Twitter. I don't follow Trump, but I'll search Trump and I'll click on his profile and I'll just see what he's doing. Ozbargain is a big one.

Tommy: Well, he's your uncle, so it's nice that you're checking on your uncle. Ozbargain.

Josh: Yeah, so Ozbargain is one that I'm sort of like, you know, just scrolling, just like, what's the shit that I don't need that you want to buy? Yeah, yeah, what could I buy, right? And so there's that. I nearly bought fucking Voss bottles in bulk. I didn't, but I thought about it. Yeah, just like, and this is the thing, like if I look at the The Chrome tab, like I've got so many things in Chrome and I, this is me actively every couple of days I go through, I'm like, fuck, I've got all these tabs. I close, close, close, close, close. Like I've got, I was going to sign up to The New Yorker. I was looking at the tote bags. I'm on New York Times, iHerb, which is the cod liver oil. I'm looking at 4G routers. I'm looking at Audio-Technica gooseneck microphones. I've got Twitter open. I've got our podcast analytics. I've got the article of the death of the former CEO of Zappos, which is very sad.

Tommy: So you're looking at articles? Is your point there?

Josh: No, not just articles. There's fucking like—

Tommy: No, but you're in Chrome. You're in Chrome.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so the point being is not— it's not TikTok is the advice at the moment or Instagram. Have you deleted Instagram or something?

Josh: No, I still like— I— if I look at my, um, settings, I look at the time. I don't think I spend as much time on Instagram. Let's have a look. So, a quick screen time audit if everyone can grab their screen time. All right, so screen time daily average is 4 hours and 31 minutes. I'm down 26% from last week.

Tommy: It's not bad. Um, daily average activity So 3 hours 55 minutes daily, that's daily average.

Mason: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on 2 hours 18 is average daily average, down 11%. My most used is Safari with 3 hours and 2 minutes, and Instagram with an hour 34, and then messages, and then my—

Josh: is this week? Is this looking at your weight for the week? Yeah, so the week, yeah, weekly for me is 4 hours and 46 minutes on Chrome. For the week. 4 hours and 42 minutes on Instagram, 1 hour 38 minutes on Messages, 1 hour 5 minutes on Google Maps, 51 minutes on CommBank. That can't be fucking right. I haven't spent— You left it right on 51 minutes on CommBank. Doing some DB transactions. A lot of just fucking looking at the bank account.

Tommy: All right, top 4 apps, go around. Jess, top 4 apps for your week. Do you know how to get that? Are you in there?

Jess: Yep.

Tommy: Just go see more, swipe through.

Jess: So Instagram, messages, Safari, real estate, Spotify.

Josh: What's your daily average for the week?

Jess: 4 hours and 17 minutes. Okay.

Tommy: Coming in second, Jessica Lucas.

Josh: And what are you, TJ?

Tommy: It was 3:55, not far behind. Trailing behind Jessica Lucas, Tommy Jackett.

Josh: And come in Instagram, YouTube, Safari, WhatsApp. How many notifications do you guys get a day?

Tommy: Where do you see that?

Josh: Scroll down to the bottom.

Mason: A day or for the week?

Josh: Oh yeah, you can do it. How do you do a week?

Tommy: Well, it's a daily average. Oh yeah, daily average.

Jess: Daily average is 170.

Tommy: Whoa, that's big.

Mason: 134 for me.

Josh: Mine's 125.

Tommy: 106.

Mason: 426 from messages.

Josh: Yeah, 373 from—

Jess: I've got 334 for messages. That's crazy.

Tommy: Are you texting Mason?

Mason: Ah, just being on the text, you know, replace Instagram, you're texting instead.

Tommy: Love it, love it.

Josh: Good one, guys. Um, yeah, it's interesting. Just a little— the annoying thing is they feel like really big things, but you can only do very small things every day.

Mason: It's like, yeah, well, one, one day a week uninstall Instagram. Yeah, that's a small step. I see how you feel. No one's gonna miss you for one day. You're not gonna miss anything.

Josh: I mean, the thing is, I could— this is what— where I get caught up is I'm like, but I could delete it just for ages. The good thing is I will delete it over Christmas and New Year's. I've got no reason to have it up for that.

Tommy: How much do you trust yourself though at that point?

Josh: Like, I do—

Tommy: how many times have you deleted it and got it back?

Josh: So the thing is The thing is, it's not like I'm like, oh, like, it's not this like big thing where it's like all of a sudden it's fucking like midnight one night, it's like, I'm gonna have the fucking chocolate cake, and you just fucking smash the chocolate cake. For me, it's like just doing it like a daily thing, and you go into the fridge and you've got a fork and you like take off a little bit of the cake and you start eating it, and then before you know it, you're fucking back to eating cake. Like, it's a— the funny thing is it's not like this off or on thing. For me, it's just— I think that part of it is recognising that the small moment of re-downloading it is actually a big moment. And so when it's— when you can justify it in your head where it's like, oh, I need to check, um, One Trick Tony's Instagram, I'll just quickly like download it. It's like, oh, and then like fucking there's notifications. It's like, oh, we've got— you know, like I even think about the, um Yeah, part of it's being a bit detached. Like for me, it's like looking at notifications and being like, oh fuck, we've got a bunch of people @ing us on the Daily Talk Show, or there's, um, all these people are mentioning us for the Spotify rap thing. It's like, ah, better, like this is a good thing to— and then so you go in and do all that sort of shit. Um, but I guess you've got to understand there's an addiction there.

Tommy: And so that's where it's like people who decide I can't have cake in my house, they've actually worked it out.

Josh: Like, yeah, and it's being okay with the outcomes or whatever, I think, as well. Like, it's the, um, they're all small. I think it's actually easier in a lot of ways to just say, hey, I'm not doing it.

Jess: Would it be best if we all put a time limit on our apps, on our Instagram?

Josh: Have you ever done that before? But then I just like fucking click next. Yeah, you've used it 15 minutes, next. Yeah, um, no, I, I just like the idea of like, I actually— this was the one of the first One of the first times with the Apple announcements with the 5G phones, I was like, I don't need a new phone. Which is like, I really don't feel the, um, this sort of gear lust when it comes specifically phones.

Mason: The laptops though, yeah, the laptops are quite nice.

Josh: But the, um, the, yeah, the phones, I'm just like, I don't know, I don't really like it. AirPods are pissing me off. AirPods are annoying. Like, I'm fucking talking to people and Derek's like, yeah, I can hear you. Good for 2 seconds and they're not good for the next 2. It's like fucking switching.

Jess: It's like, what's with that?

Josh: Yeah, is that happening with you as well?

Mason: I think yours are just crap.

Josh: Is that happening with mine?

Jess: I just bought new ones as well and I feel like mine are still not connecting. I can't hear you properly.

Tommy: As much as it's annoying, those fucking cords, I still have gone back to the cord headphones every now and then. It's really, it's fucking, it's very annoying. But, um, yeah, I don't know, there could be something like a, um, uh a, uh, a break challenge. So we're taking time off. It's like, if there's ever a time, like you're saying, Josh, you're gonna disconnect, you only truly know once it's been removed completely what the— what— yeah.

Josh: Otherwise, well, think about like 2020 has been the year that we can see that when you remove things, when you radically change your life, you can actually completely change your mind on things. Think about people like, if you know gronks who thought that they had to be in the office every day. Yeah, like, I can work from home.

Mason: Yeah, definitely.

Josh: All right, uh, it's a daily talk show. I hope you enjoy your Sunday. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one. See you guys.