Hamish Blake Co-Hosts The Podcast

Hamish: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 884.

Hamish: Hey, what's going on? How is everyone? I'm Tommy Jaggett. English Blake. I thought— How are you? What's going on?

Josh: No, that's very good.

Hamish: Is that the catchphrase?

Josh: He says, what's happening, guys? What's going on?

Hamish: What's happening, guys? What's going on? What's happening, guys? Yeah, that wasn't— I knew I'd— that wasn't a bit that came naturally.

Josh: No, that's okay. There's— YouTubers tend to do that. They have these catch cries that they say. Do you let the kids watch YouTube and have they fallen in love with certain YouTubers?

Hamish: No, I don't. I mean, not— I'm not anti it. I'm just like, I know it's going to happen, so I'm just not racing to do it. Speaking of kids, do you want me to keep up the construct that I'm Tommy still?

Josh: No, no. Unless you love the Ooshies, because he's obsessed with— Is it Ooshies or Ooshies or whatever? Like the boating YouTube.

Hamish: I don't know. I call them Ooshies. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm— I resist that as well. But you know, you're going to hear Hamish Blake's daughter screaming in the background from time to time today for some reason at Tommy's house. So, that's just a thing that's going to happen today from Tommy's house. No, the YouTube stuff, luckily, like, we haven't unlocked that Pandora's box yet. But you know, you can't get the genie back in the lamp or Pandora's underpants back in her box or back in the— Well, that doesn't sound great either. But, you know, once it happens, like my— I know other kids have got it. Like one of my nieces, she really likes these unboxing videos and she has her favourite people that do it. And at first I was like, oh, this is strange. And then I watched it and I was like, I do get it. I totally— I think toy companies should be annoyed at unboxing videos because remember, I think it taps into that whole— It's that fantasy. Remember when we were kids and you'd get like the Toy World catalogue or the Toys R Us catalogue? That's all you could see of the toy. Like, what the marketing people showed you was like, that is it. You had to just imagine what could possibly be in the box. Like, that was the whole trick of toys, was to convince you. And like, Hot Wheels ads and Transformers ads and stuff, the whole trick of the ad was to convince you that having this toy would be way better than it actually is. Then you get the toy, then it's kind of a letdown. And but it's like that rush of opening the box and seeing what's in there. And now kids just get that dopamine hit for any toy they want and they just sit there and watch someone.

Josh: So, do kids not have to, like, is this the minimalist approach to parenting where it's like, no, you can't have the toy, but yes, you can watch someone get it.

Hamish: And I reckon it takes like 90% of the thrill of owning the toy out of it and they kind of move on to the next one. So, like watching this unboxing, you're like, they unbox it, then they build it. So, it's like they unbox a Lego set, then they like time-lapse speed build it and they like play with the little bits and she's just glued to it. And I'm sitting there going, I'm gonna hand it to this YouTuber, she's pretty good at this. She's got like pretty nails and she does, she like highlights the interesting bits of the Lego and I got sucked in for like an hour watching these builds.

Josh: Yeah, I find that I can watch the weirdest stuff on YouTube, like just like a day in the life stuff, just watching someone making coffee.

Hamish: I know, I mean, this is not a wild observation either, but the greatest wrong scoff, I suppose, of our generation was when YouTube came out as an idea and they're like, oh, you know, Google's bought it for $3 billion, whatever. We're like, no way, man, they're the worst, the videos are the worst. Like, you've gotta— because we were just starting out in TV at the time, we're like, good luck, internet idiots, you have to make something great with like heaps of graphics and editing, and that's the only way you can make things. Wrong scoff.

Josh: Have you ever had a brand that's come to you and said, hey, would you do a vlog? Like, have you ever been requested to do something that is that very— I can't imagine you doing a TikTok. You don't seem like the TikTok type.

Hamish: I never— I haven't got into TikTok, and I'm fine with that. I know people are into it, and it seems like fun for them, and that's fine. But I'm definitely like, I left Twitter a while, like, you know, years ago, and I'm just— I'm just go, well, it's great, and I get that people like it. But I'm so glad that I don't feel like I need to be there every day, like participating in that. I love Instagram and I'm happy dipping into Instagram maybe. I take days off, but—

Josh: Do you delete the app or do you just—

Hamish: Yep. I sometimes just go, well, I just go, okay, well, I've had some fun there for a while and I'm going to delete it just to know that I can for 5 or 6 days and then jump back on. So, I haven't had anyone come and ask me to do a vlog as yet. I don't even know what I would respon— This is where I'm beginning to feel old. Like, I'm not 100% sure I would know what they're talking about if they said vlog. Like, what do you mean?

Josh: It was like the holding the ca— Have you ever gone around with a camera? I guess you sort of did it with the Expedia stuff. That was sort of like a vlog where it's like you're holding a camera and it's like very one-to-one with the audience.

Hamish: Okay. Yep, yep. Expedia was fun because they were just like, look, you know, would you do something for Expedia? I said, well, If we could, if I could like pick a thing to do and I just had an idea about like pretending to be like a travel photographer or like an amazing travel photographer. That was fun because I was just like, yeah, sure, we'll, you know, we'll pay for your accommodation on your holiday and you do that and then everyone wins. Nah, just kidding. If the tax office is listening, there was no transfer of benefits.

Josh: Traveling, you're doing this, the— you're an ambassador for Australia. What does it take to end up doing something like that? Like an ambassador of any type, where it's for an entire country?

Hamish: Yeah, big, big, big, big deal for the country. I guess, you know, the fun side of things is that, you know, I mean, my wife and I would love travelling anywhere, like Zoe and I love getting out there and going on holidays and that's of course, saying that, you know, it's not a difficult one to go, okay, I'll do this, um, uh, and let's officiate this partnership. That's the fun side of it. Being an ambassador is obviously the other side of it, which is, you know, like going to the UN, talking to other countries, like stopping wars, um, making alliances. Like, I hope—

Josh: I'm guessing you're not like in the tourism bit, you're not covering that sort of stuff.

Hamish: I don't— Yeah, I— Well, I don't tell them I'm a tourism Australia ambassador at the UN. I just say, I sort of like mumble the tourism bit and I— Australia ambassador, so let's talk. And I've, I am, I have, I've had a few calls from ScoMo. I've had a couple of tellings off because I've made a few soft alliances with countries that I thought could just be a bit edgier and like could give us a couple of, you know, could be a fun, fun person to bring to the table. And he's like sort of telling me, oh, like, you know, there's a process to this stuff, we have to go softly, you don't upset China and all that. So I'm learning. I'm learning. You know, we'll refund the tanks to Venezuela. I made a mistake. I'm sorry. It's my first week doing this. I'm trying to encourage people to have holidays and then trying to sort of organise a stronger military presence in the South China Sea. I mean, it's a big job, man. It's a big job being Ambassador.

Josh: There's a lot going on. Have you seen that there used to be a hotel? It was in sort of like the northern part of Australia where it was like, I think it was like sort of like Queensland, like up sort of like top of Queensland where it was a floating hotel. Have you seen that?

Hamish: No, I've never seen that. Like an old, like a steamboat?

Josh: No, so it was actually, it was a hotel that was, I think it was right next to the Great Barrier Reef, potentially.

Hamish: And you hope it was built at a time where they understood like the ecological importance.

Josh: I'm sure David Attenborough's not happy about it.

Hamish: Toilets flushing straight under the reef and stuff.

Josh: Well, I think it had that vibe because it ended up, they ended up shipping it across to North Korea. But I just ended up on this rabbit hole of watching this doco.

Hamish: You went to North Korea?

Josh: Yeah. And they like set it up there. Oh, geez. I mean, it's one of, this is one of those storeys where I don't know enough. So, I probably should have brought it up.

Hamish: I mean, I should know as the ambassador now for Tourism Australia, I should know about the history of all hotels. I'm going to chase that up. I'm going to chase that up. See if we can get it back. See if we can get it back. Obviously not on the reef anymore. I think we need to protect the reef a little bit more than we have. But let's just see if we can cheque out somewhere else. Check out the Murray.

Josh: There was the David Attenborough doco. Have you seen The Social Dilemma? Have you seen this doco?

Hamish: I have, yes.

Josh: Yes. So, everything feels a bit dark at the moment. It feels like—

Hamish: It does, doesn't it? I watched both of those, you know, 2 nights apart, 3 nights apart. So, just, you were just like, I think if you watch those close together, you basically go, uh-oh, I've spent so much time looking at this thing, cue phone, that I forgot about this thing, cue Earth.

Josh: Yeah, it's so annoying. And the only thing stopping me stress eating is watching like one of their documentaries on health, like, because I feel like that was a big thing. Remember Netflix? Everything was, it was like the sugar film, it was the Game Changers. Yeah, yeah, there was all that stuff as well.

Hamish: Here's what I did like. I mean, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on the Edinburgh Docker. I mean, I loved it and I love, I just love him. He's like, you know, thank— it's just one of those ones where he's so sort of ubiquitous. You're like, well, we don't have to have a David Attenborough. Like, you realise you're lucky to have someone like that that like represents the brand of the wild, like of nature, that even at, you know, there's footage of him at UN conferences and stuff and like really going, hey, this is, you know, this isn't a drill. And we're in a tiny window now to, to save humanity. And you are just grateful that there's someone that, that people care enough about to get that audience, because there's, you know, there's probably hundreds of thousands of scientists that could, that know the same detail and could say the same thing, but they're just not holding a crowd. And the hard thing about in today's society is it is a bit of a marketing game. It's like a, it's a you're competing with for attention and for people to care about this stuff. You're competing with weird other forces like of just churn and burn clickbaity news and stuff. And that's the kind of the real tragedy is that I think the hardest thing— so A, you're grateful, you know, you like this, we're so lucky to have an Amber, and then you have that, it's a 90-minute doco, and I felt for that first 60 minutes you just feel that not building in your stomach, just going, "Oh, we're dead, man. We've blown it." Like, we find this, and what it takes to get out of this is just such a big— It's basically saying to people, "Hey, don't be greedy and think long term." And there's probably two trends that have increased over the last 100 years. It's be greedy and think short term. And that's the real— That's the kind of the sinking pit feeling you have in your stomach. But I think they wouldn't— they knew that making that doco, and they do spend, I think, a good bunch of that last 20 or 30 minutes going, all is not lost. It's a tough balance. They must know, like, it's no good making a complete doomsday documentary, even though that's probably what you feel like doing because that's the facts. But at the same time, you can't give people false hope to be like, but you know what, if you just use 50% less plastic, try and eat vegan once a week, we'll be fine, because that's not the truth, unfortunately. So they— I think they do a good job of like, of, of going, here's some broad things, some trends that we need to make, um, habit for humanity that can arrest it, and it's possible.

Josh: How do you, how do you reconcile it in regards to you being of influence within Australia? And then I feel like there'd be a bunch of people who would say Oh, hey, I could imagine in a given day you'd be having people constantly saying, hey, this is the, the next thing that we need, we need people to know about this, and you're sort of the gatekeeper for all of these, uh, eyes and ears and all this sort of thing. How do you reconcile your influence and then working out what you do personally versus what, what you want to do or think you should do at sort of a more public level?

Hamish: Well, it is definitely— I mean, the, the environmental side of things, and specifically, yeah, the environmental side of things I care deeply about, I think a lot about. I have the same massive level of anxiety as I suppose the rest of our generation, just going, you know, it's, it's— that's such a big problem, and of course the only solution is, is action. And then, but, but I think There's also a part of me that goes, but I have, you know, you have 20 years experience in the public domain of knowing, you know, how people's attention works, when you can, when you're going to lose it, when it's going to be, when a message is going to be received. Like, you can just yell about something, but you will lose, like, you know, you will, people will drift away and you don't get that chance again. So, to be honest, right now, this is the snapshot right now where I'm at is like, I do care deeply about this and I'm thinking about ways that we can do this properly. Because I think the real goal is to have people who weren't thinking about this think about it. It's great, you can stand up at the UN Forum for Climate Change. I'm not having you go, David, I'm pretty used to it. But I'm saying, you know, you can pick a, you know, you can stand up in a room full of people that understand climate change and understand it's an emergency and talk to them about it, and that's fine. But it's like, it's the people that we all know that are like 'Oh, I heard that, you know, it was being fixed,' or 'It was being blown up,' or, you know, 'Oh, Australia's only 2% of emissions,' or whatever. Like, the people that have rationalised it and moved on, that's probably the people that is more effective to reach. So, you think about that and then you just go, that's what weighs on my mind, because of course, and this goes for any cause, all causes are good causes. There's no bad cause. And so, you know, when people are in the public eye, I do think you've got an opportunity to help and educate people, but you also have to pick your moments because it can— that, that sort of, that contract with your audience who are there for one thing, like, you can't get too carried away just going, everyone will love everything I have to say. Um, you don't want to snap that just because you watch a documentary. So I think it requires sort of like a measured response. But having said that, the environment, the future of humanity, is something I care about deeply. I love humans. I'm very fond of the ones that live in my house. I would love them and their children to be growing up on a planet that is taken care of. And the one thing I really liked about the documentary too, which is I think a slight change to the message, which is— and, and it's the thing that I get frustrated with when you talk to people who are quick to write off climate change activism as just being, you know, too, uh, you know, too hysterically green or whatever. Where it's not about— it's actually not about saving the planet, because the planet Earth will be fine. Like, well, it won't be fine, but it won't be fine by our definition of fine, but it will be here for another 10 billion years. It's been here for 4 billion, it will be here for another 10. But like, it used to be covered in lava. It doesn't care how hot it gets. It's immune to heat. It's the animals that live on the planet that need it to be a very, very, very like insanely specific temperature. And that's the difference between saving the planet versus saving the plants and animals that live on the planet and in the oceans.

Josh: Having Zoe and seeing like what she does in regard from a business perspective, like being like day to day watching how she operates and runs a business that is not just like a from a brand perspective, but it's like actual consumer products and things like that. Yeah, yeah. What have you learned or taken away, or can you give some insights into what it's like at the back end of a business where— with 2020?

Hamish: Yeah, the back end of a business is, you know, I just don't think there's any accidental successes. I mean, so is like anyone, I suppose, in business is working flat out. Then on top of that, there's a layer of— you're in the hands of the public, like you're in the hands of your consumers. And, and, um, luck is the wrong word, but then there's a layer of random chance that goes on top of that. But I don't think there's anyone that's successful that is just like not really paying attention on the back end and kind of is accidentally successful. I'm sure there's a lot of people that work flat out and, and aren't achieving the kind of, you know, the market penetration they would hope to be achieving. And that's that layer of chance that's on top. But, you know, Zoe's obviously running a super successful and loved business. And but she, I think it's a real, it is the real, people see the tip of the iceberg. Like she's, she's, I've got, I'm so, I'm extremely in awe of the way she goes about it because I also know, I mean, she said publicly a lot that she didn't set out to be in business. She said it to make— she's a great writer, she's an excellent communicator, she loves people, she loves women. She wanted to make skincare great and fun, and it was that creative side that drew her into wanting to start the business. But the reality is like once a business starts to grow and you've got customers and you've got, you know, warehouses and supply chains and regulations and 55 different versions of a formulation coming in and and the—

Josh: And then social impact stuff, right? Like if you think about—

Hamish: Social impact, a huge amount of social impact stuff that I'm really proud of. Zoë for stepping up and going, I want to understand and lead and learn more and set a great example to the women that look up to her and the young girls that look up to her, I think is incredibly admirable. And all of those things have nothing to do with writing funny stuff on the side of a moisturiser, which is what she got into it for to do. So, I've seen her go through a massive learning curve. And then on top of that though, there's a real difference between going through the learning curve at a company. Like if you just were like, oh, I don't know, I just like scammed this job in finance, but I had to learn on my feet and I learned a lot. There's a huge difference between going, I think, going through a learning curve when you just work for a company versus when you are the founder. And so you're learning a lot all the time, but you're always in the position where ultimately the buck stops with you and you're making the call on things. And For anyone that's at the top of a business or an organization, I think, and we've even, you know, even people I've spoken to in government, you have this perception that there's like a right way and a wrong way, a playbook, a set of advisors who are like, do this, we can't lose. But it's just not the way the world works. You're just always making the best.

Josh: Like as if there's this single truth. Like the thing is, there's no single truth. Yeah. I think like the other part of it is it's like Not only is there no single truth, it's your— the truth from 2019 is not the truth from 2020. You're working on, uh, the Remembering Project at the moment, going back into the archives. How cancelable are you from all the shit that you've done? Like doing 2000s concerts?

Hamish: So far nothing.

Josh: Is there things where it's like, let's bury the lead, like let's let's bury this idea looking at the run sheet, you know.

Hamish: I mean, I get, we haven't come across anything that we would, that so far is just gone, okay, that was a very different time. I actually maybe, I mean, I do actually, something popped up the other day, but I can't remember what it was, which I'm sure if we dig, it'll be there. Same for anyone. What we have realised is In terms of what was true of yesterday and what's true today, of course those things shift, but it's more of the quality matrix, I suppose, of going, oh, we thought that was great at the time, and it's just not the kind of thing you would do today. But I'm glad we're finding that too, because like when our show was— when our radio show was big, like it's getting to the stage now where we're pretty old guys talking about the heyday. Like I think we're right at that point. We're talking 12 years ago. That's That's enough water under the bridge now to, like, if you're in Year 12 talking about prep, that time has passed and you have become a different person. So, it's fun. It's really fun to look back on, but I— That's why we built this podcast. I mean, for people that don't know, this is just me and Andy. We kind of select a random day from the past and one talk break from the show, and we have all the run sheets from our old shows. And so, and all the audio. So, we look at the run sheet and try and remember what would have been going through our minds that day. Then we listen to the audio. The reason we did it like that rather than just doing a highlight, I mean, not that I think it would stand up, but just rather than going like, hey, here's the best bits or whatever. It was like, we know it's not gonna be great by today's standards. There's like, that would just be embarrassing to be going, hey guys, this was funny in 2007 and it's bloody funny now. So, laugh.

Josh: What's the context? Like Louis Theroux's got a series at the moment where he's going back to the archives and he's at home or whatever he's going through. And it's awesome. It's like the same, like so much of the stuff is things I've already seen, but he's bringing it into a context. Yes.

Hamish: I saw an article about him talking about that, and I would love to see that. Yeah. He also wrote a book, I think, where he goes back and meets some of the people that he's met on the journey. I was surprised in the interview I read with him about that, show was how many people he stays in contact with too. Like, he stays in contact with a bunch of the people he's interviewed.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it is— it feels like his type of role, like, it's a bit of a moment in time around, like, it's very specific. Like, it's sort of interesting to think of, like, this— that writer, documentarian, like, he sort of follows that sort of BBC path. I just, I wonder what that would look like. Like, I wonder what the next versions of, of the Louis Theroux in the world will be like.

Hamish: Yeah, I mean, but at the time, I suppose, like 15 years ago, like, to, to, to just be gonzo, like to do rather than to talk about. And that, that was his, his early stuff, remember, was really that notion of like, all right, well, I'll get— I think there was like, you know, the plastic surgery one where he's like, yeah, I'll get you know, lip fillers. I think he was going to get lipo.

Josh: That was the whole porn one where he did like a full nude shoot and things.

Hamish: Yeah. And the swingers party where he's like, I'm going to jump in the pool nude. And I think early on that was the hook, I guess, to be like, look, this guy actually does it. I remember the hunting one where he was just so clearly not down with hunting and he was in like a game reserve in Africa and he was in a hide and sort of had the crossbow set up and I was just like, I was like, oh my God, he's gonna— as someone that was in TV myself, like starting out in television myself, and you sort of think, you go, oh well, what would, you know, if I was making this show, what would I be doing now? I was like, oh my God, I think he's gonna kill this animal for just because he's like painted himself into a corner. And what are you doing, man? And then he just, he, you know, whether it was planned or not, he backs down. I remember, and he's like, I, I just don't feel comfortable doing this, which at the time I loved watching because I was like, oh, Yeah, I guess like being young and like not probably less secure about, you know, what you can't, realising you can and can't make your own choice. You can make your own choices even if you're on camera. Like that's good TV is watching someone be authentic. I just had that dumb idea in my head that, well, once you've said you're doing something on camera, you have to do it. Because that's basically what all our stuff was, just like peer pressuring each other into like jumping out of planes and doing, eating weird shit and stuff. Like there was no option of backing out. Down in the stuff me and Andy were doing. So, I kind of loved what— I remember that stuck with me that he was like, I'm not going to do this. And that's now part of the doco.

Josh: Well, I think that he gets a lot of people talking about sort of like a faux naivety with things, like he's coming to this thing, acting a little bit dumb or—

Hamish: Well, he was kind of bore-adding it a little bit.

Josh: Yeah. And so, what I—

Hamish: Like that to get you on side, like to— But no, I mean, Very, very Borat-lite. Like, he's— I don't— I think he— I mean, it would be up to him to make the call, but I think he does a great job of— He would never— He will never lie to get someone on the track. He will allow them to run their own race. You know, he's not going to— He doesn't stop people that are saying things that we know watching are like bigoted or, you know, homophobic and things like that. But he will never start that conversation, I suppose. That's, that was his art.

Josh: And I think that he's had sort of a transition from, if you look at The Weird Weekend, the early days, it was very much more sort of like an English guy in the US playing up that sort of caricature. Do you find with Hamish and Andy, the Hamish that you play on air, like, I think it's a version of you, but I think at the same time there's And I was even speaking to Jack about sort of the one-dimensional nature that you can sort of fall into with if you're doing a show all the time. Cackling Jack, right? Like Cackling Jack, can he, you know, we see what he's doing with, you know, Jackie Rhodes Studios and all that sort of thing, and it's so good. And you see, but you see how a format can force you to say, okay, you've got to stay in your lane because that's what you're really good at. But it's also a little bit of a mindfuck because, so for instance, you, I feel like your character is sort of a little bit loose, a little bit lazy, you know, sort of probably not even like, don't have any sort of athletic prowess, all of these things, which like is actually not the case. And so like, what is interesting is it's like, oh, oh, hey, like, how are you going to go going up that hill or whatever? It's like, you'll fucking destroy it. You've been up since 5 goggins, this thing. And so how do you reconcile you as an individual, which you are a bit, you are, even though you are Hamish fast and loose, you also have these like Type A qualities. And so how do you reconcile?

Hamish: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think there's, so there's a difference probably between like definitely going back in time. You're like, okay, that's that's, you know, when I was 24, that's probably a pretty accurate snapshot. So, maybe a little bit of that character or that little bit of that version of me was more truthful at 24, like I was a pretty chubby, sloppy, you know, unorganised dude. And—

Josh: You and Zoe's blow-up are the only thing that's keeping Bri and I sane at the moment. It's like, well, at 30, Heym was pretty sloppy. Remember he came back and he was— He was probably my weight now. Like, I'm still goggins. I can still goggins this.

Hamish: Post-New York, I was— That's—

Josh: You haven't shaved your head, which is what I did. Like, there's a point where it's like, you're just so sad.

Hamish: Do you know what? You shave your head because you go, I'm going to look like Travis Fimmel. You look like a fat baby. And so, how do you transition or like, do you—

Josh: Like, how do you— It's not even transitioning. How do you reconcile that people know you for something, but you are changing as a person?

Hamish: I'm fine with it. You just go, well, that's, you know, you know that when you get into this world of going, you know, my name's Hamish, that's my friend Andy. Together we do a show called Hamish and Andy, which is exactly us, right? And it's not, it's not that we, you know, we, and we, we have tried to, you know, you try to keep that on air part of you as authentic as possible. But you do grow over time. So, you're right. So, there becomes a bit of it like, well, we've learnt how to do this dance, right? Like we've totally learnt how to fill 40 minutes of space with, like, we can keep a rally going for 40 minutes. But there are some shots that we know are preferred, right? Like you just, it's, you're right. Like it's a, it's almost like a labor-saving thing. Like, you just know the areas to play. And not that you want— you never want to get sort of stagnant and boring, but you're always, I suppose, you just are constantly evolving that chemistry and that routine. Now, there's a chance that personally outside of the show, you're evolving at a different rate or in different directions. And then you are finding ways to go, well, you make sure that when you're back on the mic, and it happens slowly. It's like turning an oil tanker. You are like, you know, there's, you know, I'm like quite clearly not the guy I was when I was 25. Like, I'm 38 and I'm a dad and I'm interested in different stuff. But at its essence, I think the thing that me and Andy have still is interesting. There's still kind of a fun friction between us that's like, that generates sparks somehow, that— But we're different people now. And Ando's obviously really different, too. So, we're different people now that are generating like different kind of sparks. So, that's why, yeah, you can't be those guys forever. Like things do evolve and do change.

Josh: Because the funny, I feel like there's funny has a bit of truth to it. And so, if I use my own example, it's like I'll say I'm going to do things. I take these massive you know, I'm going to do a million steps in a month and I get injured or whatever it is. And so, the character that I've built is the guy that doesn't, like, says he's going to do something and doesn't do it. And so, that's funny. But then there's the thing that's also true is sometimes the most painful thing, the thing that like we know to be true about ourselves are the things that we want to change or that we don't like. I feel like there's definitely been times where, you know, TJ and I have said, oh, like, I don't really want to, like, I don't want to do that bit anymore, or I don't like— that's actually not me now. Or like, that's like, I don't find it— even if it's funny from an audience perspective, there's this idea where it's like you feel like there's a disconnect between the joke and you as a person.

Hamish: Yeah.

Josh: Have you had those scenarios where you're like, hang on, like, I don't want to be this. And is that coming from ego? I don't know.

Hamish: Like, maybe, maybe, maybe it is, but in a pretty normal way. I suppose we're all, we all have an attachment to our identity. We think about, we all think about our identities a lot, and that's driven by ego.

Josh: Yeah.

Hamish: Um, maybe I would say that honestly, the way that I've always viewed it is, you know, you want what, what we like doing is creating funny stuff.. And so, if it's getting to the point where it's like, well, it's now not funny because— Now, there's a lot of reasons it could not be funny. One person could just be really uncomfortable and then that stops something being funny. Genuinely uncomfortable, like just going, well, I'm really not interested in, you know, pursuing this. What about caring something?

Josh: What about like caring? So, for instance, it's like for 99% of things with Tommy and I, it's like from a business perspective, I'm driving that and I'm like happy to do it and I love it. There are obviously the moments where it's like TJ's like, actually, this specific business thing, I've got a different opinion on it. And then sometimes there can be friction because you're saying, okay, well, that's not normally the— that's not the place that you're normally playing in. True. So being in a team, but that's being— exactly. And so it's like, how do you, um, how do you play your character or play like work out the best role that you play within a team, but then also understand that like we're all, we're all constantly evolving and fluctuating, saying, oh, like the thing I didn't care about, I know I said that I didn't care about this, but now I actually want to do this or this.

Hamish: True. I guess it's like you got the on-air switch, the off-air switch kind of thing, like, and we have a, we just have a tonne of fun on air, like especially with the podcast, like it's a great playground.. And I'm a firm believer in, you know, funny wins, not at the cost of hurting someone, but like, hey, I got no, you know, there's no vanity in comedy. I got no need to go, by the way, you know, what, like if something, if I, you know, if like, if it was something about, ah, I bet you couldn't do 10 push-ups. And if that was funny, if that, The joke required a slight suspension of disbelief for me to be the guy that couldn't do 10 push-ups and we were having a laugh about it. I think any part of me that stepped in to be like, well, actually, fuck you, man, watch this. And here's 10 of the crispest push-ups you've ever seen. That is just ego. That's just someone wanting to—

Josh: Failing is funny. Failing of—

Hamish: That's not funny. But by the same token, it doesn't mean you have to deliberately pretend that you're an idiot to keep things funny. You just— I think what happens is as you grow personally, we've probably seen the show and our relationship evolve and grow into other areas too. And there are some things, you know, since we're talking really, really honestly here about the mechanics of comedy, there are some things that are just flat out lies about Andy, like me running the rumour that he smokes. Which is, to the people that get the joke, is just funny because it upsets him. Now, this goes back to the realm of like, it's not all about not upsetting people because it doesn't actually upset him. It's more just like, if you really want to dig down on that joke, what we're doing there, I suppose, is laughing at the audacity of one person to make up a bold-faced lie about the other and the other being forced to deny it, or it being like a tacit admission on something that's so ridiculous to us because Ando, you know, has He's a— well, I don't know, actually. I can't watch him all the time. I can't resist. But you know what I mean? Like, it's like, that's, you know, if Andy did turn to me and was like, I find this really, really upsetting.

Josh: What about off air?

Hamish: Like, because I feel like I think if he did that off air, I'd go, oh, great, man.

Josh: Well, not even about like on air stuff. Like, I feel like from a— because the funny thing, using a filter of funny is great. And it's because it becomes very easy, but not at all cost.

Hamish: Not at all cost. It's like Yeah, exactly.

Josh: But, but so from an off— from an off-air perspective, how do you— how do you reconcile roles in that space? So for instance, what you wanted— the reason I bring it up is because I wonder, it's like we're constantly evolving, we're constantly— like everyone within a team is constantly on their own journey. And so the thing that you wanted at 25 is different to the thing you want at 35. And so I had a great saying about that the other day.

Hamish: I think it was, it was a saying, I'm, I don't know if this is, I've attributed this correctly, but I think it was Jung. Um, it was, what's true in the morning of your life is a lie in the afternoon, meaning, you know, you change.

Josh: I like that. And so how do you work out changing people within the context of, not so much from a content perspective, but relationships within business and roles and how it all fits together?

Hamish: Good question. I mean, I've never really thought about it before, but my initial gut as an answer is I think it comes down to your priorities. So, and a balance of priorities too. So, one of the priorities that Andy and I have always had is, well, we obviously like making stuff and that the priority is we want it to be good, but one of the prerequisites for that being good is we have to be having fun. So, if we're not having fun, we've got a problem because both people having fun is a pretty key ingredient to the kind of thing we like making. So, we know that's a priority. So, we're like, okay, well, as we change and— but the other thing that we have a lot of value on is like, well, we want people to be having fun, but there's also a friendship side of things that we give priority to here as well. So if we're then on the personal side of things, we're changing, we're evolving, things are happening. If it begins to grate against the friendship, or against— if one of those things begins to grate against each other, that's probably where you stop and go, well, what— we need to make some changes here to maintain some of the priorities. And maybe if the show has— if this idea of making stuff has got in the way of us being friends, you know, and we have prioritised being friends above the show, that's— we're going to have to make a choice. We're going to have to dial some things down and turn some things up. And I suppose it's just how you— that's the path you navigate the whole time. That would be my— that's probably in my mind how you rationalise changing people against an evolving relationship.

Josh: Is there a go-to mechanism if you're feeling that way where it's like, oh, we're going to take a break or we're going to like, let's not chat before the show. Like, are there certain things where mechanisms that help?

Hamish: I mean, I guess unconsciously we've had them over the years, whether it's just catching up for a beer or a walk or it's a spontaneous chat in a hot tub overseas somewhere. I suppose different. I mean, we're a 2-man team and this, I'm sure the same rules would apply, but be different for say a 3-person team or a 4-teenager team or a team of 8 old women. You know, it's, I suppose it just comes down to checking in and each team's going to have their different dynamics of how they cheque in and how they listen to each other. And then, you know, I suppose it's what I was saying about Zoe before, it's like there is no playbook. You're on your own. You've got to try and just make the best choices you can and, and track on.

Josh: And then so Radio Karate, where it's, there's 4 of you, there's Ryan, Tim, and then you and Andy. What's the— are you a business guy? Do you like business? Is that something like you talk about Zoe, you know, she likes writing funny shit on the side of, you know, products, and then it becomes this thing. Is it something that you learn to love, the business side of it?

Hamish: I think everybody probably has their different attractions to different parts of it. I'm aware of business, like I'm, you know, I was studying commerce and stuff at uni. I'm interested in business. I'm fascinated with, I suppose, like, you know, I am interested in businesses and I understand the I'm interested in the fact that you could, that we've been able to, I mean, the real reward for us, I suppose, at the bottom line is here's the thing that we've had fun doing and we got to turn it into our job. And I suppose the process of turning into our job was business. And there is a business element to that because then you've got money in the mix. And I suppose that's sort of what Zoe's gone through. It's like, here's the thing I thought would be really fun and I love doing, but to turn it into, but to get to keep doing it, I had to make it a business. Yeah, or that was the choice that was made. And so the reward is you get to keep doing your fun thing, and the cost is you have to be good at business to some extent. So, but, you know, in terms of, in terms of me personally, do I love the business side of things? I, I'm, uh, you know, if I, if it had to be a binary yes or no, I'd say I'm, you know, if it is— and I don't think it ever should be business versus creative, but I am, my, my My brain is just drawn towards the creative side of things, the making of things. And, but I'm happy to intellectually think about the business side of things too when it's required. But Ando has a real knack. He has a, you know, just like a, it's in him. He has, you know, we sometimes, we laugh about business shark or business snake, but he's not a shark or a snake, but he's just, it's his, like, but it's in him. That's how he thinks. And strategically, he's just got a very good strategic mind and he just, I don't think he can turn it off. And I don't think he should. Like, that's one of his superpowers.

Josh: It feels like at 2020, and it's been happening for the last few years, businesses talking about failure and talking about like, there is a real move. Like, I think when the Daily Talk Show started and with big media company, this has all come at a time where the format, the format of our show is the highs, the lows. We have like, you know, blowups on the show, but then like, but we, you see every light and shit. Like it's like, okay, let's just communicate. Let's try and be as honest as possible when the mic turns on. What's the worst that could happen?

Hamish: I like that.

Josh: And so, but Hamish and Andy was created in a time where that really isn't like, that's not an expectation.

Hamish: It's an expectation for us, and it was never a—

Josh: it wasn't just a gig. And so, but that's content. But so that's a content thing. But what I'm wondering is, it's like, you see, like, look at, uh, you know, your best mate Ry and how much he's evolved over the last couple of years in regards to like creative fulfilment and just really sort of understanding what he wants. And, and just, you can see, you can see it in the work. And so there's a huge amount of evolution. And it feels like if I listen to the way that he speaks, it's of that slightly more transparent vulnerability.

Hamish: Sure.

Josh: More sort of talking about—

Hamish: He's friends with Brené Brown.

Josh: Exactly. And so how do you— like, I'm just fascinated with, say, even like Working Dog or like, you know, Radio Karate, any of these businesses where it's like how— obviously it's not all of a sudden going to be this thing where it's a switch and it's like, okay, we're having these more sort of vulnerable meetings where we're all talking about our feelings and really deconstructing and working out. Like, do you think that that's a thing? Is that like it from a business perspective? Even—

Hamish: You mean doing it publicly or just doing it at all?

Josh: No, not even publicly. Like, I think that it's— we're in a unique situation with our show where it's like we do do it publicly, but taking that off the table, taking off like any form of like narrow narrative building or shtick that's on air, the actual idea of emotional conversations or going through and like, this is how this made me feel, or how's everyone going? Like being really tapped in on that. And you might have some examples from like Zoe's work. Like, do you find it feels like business in general? Bri works at HeyTiger. They're always like always talking about their feelings. It's all like everyone like, and I feel like especially in COVID, it's like that's the question everyone's asking. It's like, how are you going? I feel like there was a time in business where it's like we don't really want to know, like we care about everyone, but at the end of the day, like, we're not using a whip.

Hamish: Yeah, we want you to be happy so you can keep performing your job.

Josh: Exactly. And so how, how do you, um, how do you sort of perceive this sort of movement into opening up as you—

Hamish: I, I think it's terrific. Yeah, I, I think, I think the whole Look, I mean, I'm a big proponent for, you know, happiness first. And I think a big part of that happiness is understanding essentially how you feel and what you want, like, and where you're going. And to— but also if you're in a team, to have empathy for your team and for what they are caring about too. And so I think those conversations are like a critical, not just for business but for life, to go, if you've got someone on your team that's feeling something, you know, and you genuinely care about your team, you want to hear where they're at and you want to hear their thoughts. And, you know, the more people can express their vulnerabilities or their hopes, their fears, then in an ideal situation, if you're working with people that you'd love and there's an element of love in the team, That's how, you know, I think that love for each other is the engine with which you evolve.

Josh: So then if you look at, say, how Ryze changed over the last few years, how does that then change business? Like, and how much, how much sports—

Hamish: Well, I suppose it's like, what do you want? What do you want from your business? I mean, I'd say that what Ryze is doing is the exact Um, is a great personification of somebody, somebody following their heart and their gift to be happy. He's making things and that's what makes him happy. The, you know, a flip side of that would be making, um, would be inserting a word before things like making profitable things or making, you know, mass appeal things that are therefore like, you know, could, could earn money or whatever it is, but that's not what he's doing. I think that's— So, you know, you're always going to have that conflict, I suppose, between going— If you— Sometimes, you know, if you want to— If making money is the thing that we're talking about in terms of business and that's the thing that makes you happy, I'm sure that there's lots of ways that people can make money if that is what they've decided is the thing that is their calling. I don't think for many people that's genuinely the answer. I think I think we're talking about like, what do you want to do for your work? Which is what do you want to put in the world that you're proud of, that you feel that you've got a sense of direction or stewardship over, and then any success that comes from that you feel like you've earned. I think that's a more satisfying place to come from for putting work into the world.

Josh: Do you feel the pressure in regards to having a team? Like, do you feel the weight of hang on, like me deciding whether I have another year of podcast in me or I have a year of this or that, it like, it has a big, big impact on like a bunch of people's lives.

Hamish: It does. But also, I always just view all this stuff we're doing as like a bit of a bonus. And I think if you think about the flip side of that, just to go, well, am I really working with a team? Like if I was like, no, no, no, I can't do the podcast next year. I just can't do it. Do I really think the team I'm working with would be like, well, bad luck. That's what we need it. So, you're doing it and we don't care how you feel. And no one I work with, I mean, most of all Andy would have that perception.

Josh: Yeah. And so, on the hard times, so when things get tough, so obviously like fun is the goal. But as you can see with Zoe, it's like it's not always fun. It's like stressful. It's painful. It's people problems. It's like, it's everything, right, across the whole spectrum in business. So then what's the, what's the filter? Because I like, I think that you are the epitome of fun. Like, that's like your brand value. That's what you're all about. That's what you communicate. But there's probably like a lot of people who are in the creative process where it's like, I think I'm having fun, but I'm also depressed, or I feel like I'd like, I hate working with people, or like all of these struggles. How do you sort of deal with where fun sits, where hard work and pain sit? Like, does that make sense?

Hamish: Well, I guess we're talking about fun. There's fun and then there's happiness. So, they're not the same thing. So, you can have people like, yeah, okay, I have fun at work, but that same person could be like, but I'm not happy. And so what's the distinction for you? I don't know, what's the distinction for you? I guess everyone brings to it their own, um, I'd say that probably for me, the example where you're having fun but you're not— well, I would say happiness is a state, right? Happiness is a state that requires that— I mean, there's lots of people that do research on this stuff, and there's a lot of, you know, conventionally held wisdom.

Josh: And I've got all the books, I haven't read them, but I do—

Hamish: got all the books. The Dalai Lama's had a few things to say on it. But it's a state, right? And I mean, generally, like, the— I would say if you could boil down the wisdom on it from what I can gather, it's, you know, happiness is— it's an internal state. Like, it's not relying on external factors. I mean, the Dalai Lama seems like a pretty happy guy, but, you know, it's not externally based. And then, but then there's having fun. And I would say like, to me, having fun is a fun thing to do, but it's an action, you know, it's a verb, it's a way to spend your time and your life. But they're two things that require different work, you know. Happiness is a thing that requires work. I mean, in the best possible sense, it's sort of like, well, you know, you're happy when you being a good husband and a good father and a good friend. And, you know, you're doing the work that you feel is worthwhile and you're being a good community member and you're thinking about others. And like, I think those are the general— I mean, I'm massive— like, I don't think being happy is that easy, but it's, you know, that's generally the things that feed into happiness. And then fun is, you know, going on a Seabiscuit with your mates because that's a fun thing to do behind a speedboat. So, You know, they're— I just, I think that they're two different things, but that's my own take on it. So, as someone that has fun or champions fun—

Josh: Fun's almost fulfillment, I think. Like, I think in a broader perspective, maybe it's like, because if you take out the comedy part of it or that sort of thing, like there's—

Hamish: It can be fun to make people laugh, but that's not the only type of fun. I mean, I very much enjoy that, but there's other ways to have fun for people.

Josh: And so, the fulfilment bit versus the happy bit.

Hamish: But that's a great point, actually. That's a really, that's probably a really good way to put it in terms of fulfilment, because if people just love birdwatching and they go out and they nail a Spotted Warbler, they're having fun because they're fulfilled. They've, they had a goal or a need and they fulfilled it and they're having fun and, you know, it's not hurting anyone. "Don't get too close to that warbler. Just watch it. Look, but don't touch." I mean, it might be hurting the warbler to feel— I mean, it is a bit perverse when you think about birdwatching, but as long as the warbler doesn't know they're being spied upon. But, you know, then for someone like me, like, I like making people laugh. So, you go about your day and you do something that makes people laugh. And I feel fulfilled because that's something I enjoy doing. And we're probably, me and the birdwatcher, are both having the same amount of fun.

Josh: Just finally, like on an awareness piece of like how you're feeling, how do you know if you're in a rut and how do you then sort of flip it around?

Hamish: Do you think I'm in a rut?

Josh: No. Well, I think that like, no, what I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the audience.

Hamish: I'm thinking about the audience.

Josh: No, no, no. I think I'm thinking about the audience, right? I'm thinking about like so many people are in a certain state right now. So, so like I'm thinking about like, what is, what is the— if I was to— if you were to do a temperature check, uh, around, you know, uh, not actual temperature, and we probably will eventually be checking temperatures, but if, if we were—

Hamish: If you want a temperature check, go try, go shopping at a Chemist Warehouse. They'll get you as you walk in the door.

Josh: Well, no, I think that it's, um, what I seek definitely, like what I love about podcasts, what I love about all of these different things is it's like I enjoy, it was like, um, Steen was on Resilience Project and you hear like the storey or whatever of like, you know, just people struggling and you can see, okay, you can have this, you can have a lot of things right.

Hamish: Yeah. You can be the funniest guy in the world, like Steen is, I think, easily one of the funniest guys in the world.

Josh: And so, that's the thing. Like, I feel like you can, and so many, you listen to sort of Mark Maron or you listen to, you know, those types of podcasts, you hear And for me, it gives me comfort because I'm like, I feel fulfilled, but heaps of things, like, I don't feel good all the time. And so what I'm always trying to reconcile is it's like, okay, like, what is the— what's the goal here? As you've described, happiness isn't necessarily the thing. It's about like fun or fulfilled. It's like, yeah, it's serving.

Hamish: Happiness isn't about being— having fun. I don't think solely. I think what, to me, there's a giant distinction between being funny and being happy.

Josh: Yeah.

Hamish: I like to think that I am both a lot of the time, but I put more weight for, I put more personal investment into the happy side of things rather than the funny side of things.

Josh: Well, yeah. And I think that like, I guess the reason I bring up the Rupp stuff is it's like, You're someone who loves to travel. You like, you know, during wintertime or whatever, you go away, all that sort of thing. Obviously now Australia is— There's a lot of great places in Australia.

Hamish: Well, there's over 10 million, I assume.

Josh: 10 million.

Hamish: 10 million spots in Australia.

Josh: To travel.

Hamish: Over 10 million.

Josh: Is that suburbs or what's that actual?

Hamish: I guess it's just spots. So, you can't really tie me down to my statistic there. I mean, you could just be like, There's the car park at Ryback Beach. There's obviously the in the water at Ryback Beach. There's sort of halfway up the sand. These are all different spots and you can travel to all of them.

Josh: You definitely, yeah, you've got that UN vibe there. So, on the, yeah, so I guess the question is it's like there's the disruption that we've all felt. And I don't want this, like I don't want the conversation, I guess, to be that sort of COVID thing, but it's definitely, I feel like highlighted what's been important to us and listening to ourselves and being like, oh, why do I feel agitated? Or hang on, actually going to the beach.

Hamish: This week, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Hamish: In Melbourne. This week where we're like, you know, days and we're coming to the end of whatever week it is of lockdown, which is— Will be— We will look back on this, I hope, as like a very unique— I hope it's unique in the sense that we don't have a third one. But we'll be like, wow, it's darkest before dawn right now. Like, you know, there's 2 cases today, but we're still locked down. And everyone's like, their batteries are at We've been in power saving mode for a long time, I think.

Josh: But I think— So, what does that look like for you, I guess? Because I think you're a really optimistic person. I think that that's what— I think that you probably, which makes a lot of sense. It's like you've got this platform. It's like, well, let's like, let's be careful about the words that you use and the way that like falling into that trap of being negative. But it feels like at the moment there is this opportunity of oscillation where it's like if the guy who has the perceived most fun in Australia has the best job, the best family, the bet, like all of these things, like I feel like it's such an opportunity for it's like, okay, like what's— Where is the—

Hamish: What am I thinking?

Josh: Yeah. What is the— Yeah. What's the—

Hamish: There's no doubt that it's been a strange time for everyone. No doubt. I mean, but my personal mindset day to day is not, I would say not, I mean, I'll come back to optimistic in a second, but my personal mindset has been there's still so many opportunities for good things to happen today. Little good things, little, I mean, I know we're super lucky because we've, this week my little boy's gone back to school, but we've had both kids at home, you're wrestling on the couch, you're doing silly things. Like, life has slowed down, but it hasn't lost its chance. Just because you can't travel to the spots you want to travel to, you've still got opportunities to do things. And I, look, I'm not being glib about it too. I get they're harder, and we're extremely— I preface this by going, we don't have— We're not small business owners. We don't have anyone in the family that's sick. There are people that have You know, we're not healthcare workers who just faced an unbelievable burden. We are part of the society, we're part of the extremely lucky part of society that went unburdened, but just inconvenienced. So, I do understand the— It's a trying one because you don't want to minimise the mental health impact of that time. But I'm also, at the same time, I hold the gratitude of going, but we still had so much. That we're able to do and to enjoy and to love. And we'll never, like, like it or not, it is happening and we'll never get, you know, again, I'll never get my little girl being 3 years old after this year. So, now's the time to enjoy it. Like, like it or not, it's not 3 years old on a beach, but it's 3 years old anyway. And she's still her and being silly and funny.

Josh: So, an example, I guess, would be, say, I feel like this happens a lot in relationships where Bree will say, ah, like, I'm not feeling great, I'm pissed off, or like, or it might be something like a personal issue with a person, right? So, it's like, ah, this person's pissing me off at the moment, or this happened at work, or whatever it is, playing the positive role, which is like, oh, you know, like it's all good, like we've got this, or it's like, or that person might be going through things, like playing the sort of like higher optimistic thing is a way to get kicked in the head, right? Like, 'cause like what Bri wants is it's like, fuck that person. Yes, this is shit.

Hamish: As like a solution to stop feeling bad. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so the thing is—

Hamish: I think this is men and women stuff. Well, you've just done what, like, that's just Marriage 101.

Josh: So what do you do then? So when Zoe's saying like, this is shit, you go, well, it's very lucky, like, we get to fight on the couch.

Hamish: Like, you don't say it then, you idiot. You just get in a relationship. You say, I know. And then you stop because the next thing you want to do is solve it. And that's not what That's not what wives and girlfriends want.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Hamish: They just want it. They just want an "I know." And then later on, you try and find a way to go, "But hey, isn't this terrific? Because look at how cute Rudy was in this video I took of her this afternoon." And then go, they'll go, "Hey, they just went to bed. Show me later." Okay. Wrong time again. And then later you show them something. But it's, you know, that's—

Josh: What do you need? Like when you're feeling, when you're like, oh, this person's— like, I'm not happy about this. Or when you have a moment of not this perspective, which is in, this is how I'm feeling right now. I wanted to go for a fucking bike ride and it's pissing down with rain. This was my only chance this week.

Hamish: It's like— I've got— Yeah, you get— I do think you come up with strategies and everyone's different, hey? Like, luckily for me, I do have exercises, a way that I'm a fan of. Like, I've got an exercise bike. You love riding the bike.

Josh: You love cycling.

Hamish: Well, I also don't mind riding in the rain too, because I've sort of got a bit of a theory of going, well, I I like training for bike rides. I like sort of having a big bike ride to train for. And then I'm sort of like, well, if it's raining on the day and you never rode in the rain, you'd be in trouble.

Josh: It's like learners, you need to be driving in the rain.

Hamish: You got to do your hours at night and stuff. But honestly, I do like bike riding and I destroy myself on— I've got a Wattbike at home and I probably deliberately, yeah, I like bury myself on that thing because there's like a level— I've found for me personally, like mentally, I like the benefit too of going to a level on a workout where You know, in the same way that meditation just forces you to be present, or that's the goal of meditation, when you are in a hole of pain of your making, like no one cares that you're in the basement covered, just completely killing yourself, but when you've made yourself suffer to that extent, there's just nothing, you know, it's a very honest place. Like there's nothing else you're thinking about than trying to mentally get through to the end of, you know, the next minute or whatever it is. So, that has been a helpful thing for me I found in lockdown, just skunking off to the basement and sweating it out.

Josh: Optimism, you talked about that.

Hamish: Yeah, right. So, interesting. I mean, this whole thing that we're going through, which is an unknown end to a situation we weren't expecting. There was a famous dude, I'm paraphrasing here the article, and I'll preface this by saying, I, to all, um, members of the military, I understand that what we're going through is not the same as being in a prisoner of war camp. But in the analogy of it being an unknown ending to a scenario, um, there was a dude that was extremely famous. I'm sure it's easily Googleable. I think he was held by the Viet Cong for 7 years, right? And so got like pretty much from the start of Vietnam War to almost to the end, door to the end. And, and he was, you know, he was interviewed about, well, obviously, like, you know, how did you go— everyone else you were captured with over time, they died in the prisoner of war camps. And like, how did you, how did you mentally make it to, to stay, to stay, um, to keep going? Was it optimism? Like, you know, you must be such an optimistic guy. He's like, no, no, no, those were the guys— the optimists were the guys that I knew were gonna— would die. Early because it was the guys going, alright, by Christmas we're going home, like definitely by Christmas. Then Christmas would come and go and they would give up. Like they had set all their hopes onto something. And that, I suppose, is optimism. Like they'd clung tightly to the goal. And when that goal didn't happen, it broke them. So, he was like, I just had faith that one day eventually this would end. And I would be a better person for it. And so, I was, you know, I really admire that in the sense that he, for him, it was much more about a state of being right now rather than it needing to be a concrete solution at a certain date or a certain time that would make him happy. And that's a tough thing to do mentally, but I thought it was a pretty interesting perspective on going, well, that's kind of what it comes down to in anything in life because like, You know, everyone's like, oh, 2020, we never saw that coming. But what year do you see coming? No one sees anything coming. Like, every year is insane.

Josh: So we're such narrative builders.

Hamish: And so the thing is, it's like, think about it and pretend that like every year from 2000, like from post-September 11th, like that was the last surprise we had, and then everything else has been predictable and worked out perfectly. And then 2020 came along, and it's just not true. Like, life is— tomorrow's promised to no one. Life's not a guarantee for anyone. So I think, you know, I'm not the first person to say this, and I'm certainly not the most qualified by any stretch of the imagination. But for me, I try to just go, well, you know, it's the here and now is all you can really look after.

Josh: Yeah, it's— I think, yeah, it's interesting talking about this stuff because I think that it's like, it's not necessarily like— Why I love speaking to you about it is because you're someone who's smart, you read stuff. But I think that the optimism side, like, I think you're one of the most optimistic people that I speak to. Like, I think that it's—

Hamish: and, and so then that's probably just faith, isn't it? That's just faith. I believe in good at some point, in some way, shape, or form. But I, but I, but I know it's a fool's errand.

Josh: I'm not implying that you're gonna die because you're too optimistic.

Hamish: No, no, no. But I suppose it's a fool's errand to go, here's what good is going to look like, and it's going to happen in this way on this day. Yeah, that's the bit you don't know about. But, but I think you can, if you look around, you can find a way to cultivate enough faith in good anyway, somewhere, somehow.

Josh: So, do you look forward? Are you excited about anything coming up?

Hamish: Yeah, totally. What are you excited about? Well, I'm excited. I'm honestly, I like, I get excited about circumstances rather than I suppose specific things. So, yeah, we'll probably be opening up soon, you know, in Melbourne. You hope that restrictions are eased and then that means more randomness and chance and excitement and options will start flowing back into people's lives. And I think that will buoy people. And honestly, this thing that Joe and I are doing with Tourism Australia is super, like, it's a dream gig for both of us because we are going to get to go on these crazy holidays and adventures under the guise of ambassadorship. So, honestly, like, you know, that's one thing that I'm a big believer in the 80/20 rule of holidays, which is like 80% of the fun is the anticipation and the planning. And that's the stuff we've been doing at the moment. So, even though I might not end up going on the 25 different trips that I'm planning online, it's still been a fun pastime to plan my life.

Josh: How are you planning it? Are you using certain apps or how do you keep it?

Hamish: I started Pinterest. I'm bad. Honestly, it is a Word doc where it's probably the least— There will be people out there that have put their whole lives into inventing these apps that are meant to be for exactly this mission. And then they'll see me like on Notes just typing in manually, must visit, you know, must visit Bay of Fires. Like, no, make a Pinterest board. That's why we invented the app.

Josh: It's Fat Fridays. And so, we like, could you, I know we haven't eaten, but if you could eat something that's a little bit indulgent today, that'd be good. Have you got anything on the list?

Hamish: I know what I'll be doing. Well, Usually on a Friday night, Zoe and I, you know, we'll have a martini and we'll go through this silly dance of me going, "I'm going to do some chips in the air fryer," and her going, "No, no, no, I don't need them tonight." And then going, "Come on, I'll just do a few." Then I do a few. Then she's like, "Why do you make such a little bowl of chips?" And then I have to do more. And so, I already know we've got chips on the horizon tonight. But the other thing I'm loving about it— Do you cut the potato?

Josh: What sort of potatoes do you—?

Hamish: No, no, no. Like, you know, either— I don't mind a Coles— Like, you just get like a Coles beer-battered, like frozen chips.

Josh: Yeah, that was it, mate. This is a new thing that I've discovered. You don't have to get them delivered, like, because delivered chips, they're always soggy and all that sort of thing.

Hamish: That's the thing. It's very difficult to get a chip to your door.

Josh: But frozen chips are pretty inexpensive. So, like, it is the biggest joke. They're like $2.50 for like a kilogramme of chips.

Hamish: And so, this is—

Josh: I think that there is something. I haven't— Executed on this yet, but the idea of never, like if I was really organised, always having drinks in the fridge and having the chips and putting, doing the order, putting the chips on, you're only ordering the burger. You have the, you're getting your drink, so you don't have to, you're not paying sort of $4 for a drink.

Hamish: Yeah. It's temperature. It is a temperature trade-off because Like unpaid, but Schnitz make a great chip, right? They do. If you're eating it in store, it's like you can't beat it. It's cooked. I mean, there are two different tastes, the air fryer and the oil. The air fryer is like a 97% perfect situation. But an oil chip is still an oil chip, and I will grant that. But you've got to eat it at the source. Like a restaurant fry is going to be great. But you're right, for home, I think the air— I've got to a stage where I'm confident the air fryer wins with the right brand of chip, the right time, the right temp in the air fryer.

Josh: You're just using baked. For instance, we just, we don't have an air fryer yet. And so, like we have, we have like a lot of random bits and pieces, like we've, you know, we've had the juicers, we've had the sandwich— I went through a stage of—

Hamish: Air fryer is so much more important in the kitchen than a juicer, by the way.

Josh: So, the thing with an air fryer, is it deemed, is this a— I'm trying to make health-conscious decisions. Is this a health-conscious decision?

Hamish: I think some people, I think people, yeah, it has to be healthier than deep frying a chip because— because there's no oil. So, there's a spoon of oil or something. Yeah. Well, yeah. When you, well, even with just frozen chips, you literally just chuck them in the basket, close it up. They come pre-battered, but you're not putting them in oil and like, so what are they doing?

Josh: It's just doing something. No one knows.

Hamish: It's magic, Josh. All right. No, I think they're literally, they're just in a box of hot wind, which is what the, I think the air fryer is. Isn't that an oven?

Josh: Are we not just—

Hamish: No, but it's, I think the wind factor is what I think, because it's like so fast, the wind is like a Dyson in there.

Josh: It's a fan force.

Hamish: And it's like a tornado.

Josh: I remember— That's fan— Yeah.

Hamish: It's fan force, but it's tornado fan force. I think because it's like a little box, they can really concentrate the wind. And that seems to be the magic. But it— I mean, I don't know how they do it, but it's essentially like anything that would benefit from crispiness, that is what your air fryer is for. So, I'm putting frozen apple pies in at the moment. Super crispy crust and juicy on the inside. Fried chicken we'll be doing in the air fryer. Do you make your own fried chicken? So, you marinate the chicken pieces like in a buttermilk throughout the day and then literally just dip them, just then put them in flour and then put them in the air fryer. And you do, I do, you do give that like a light spray of oil. If you've got like a canola oil or something, you spray that. But that's it. And then it just crisps up.

Josh: So, you'll have chips tonight?

Hamish: I will have chips tonight, but I will also have an apple pie. Okay.

Josh: And then Friday's ice cream. Any nugget brand? Like, are you eating nuggets outside of like your—

Hamish: No, I mean, I'll still hit a Macca's. I'll still hit a Macca's. I hit a Macca's nugget yesterday or the day before, but I will— I'm not air frying nugs at the moment. Not for any reason, but I feel like McDonald's is a— I feel like it's much harder to replicate the quality of a McDonald's nugget at home. Right. Yeah. Right. That's my honest opinion. So, basically, fun and happiness are different things. And they're a lifelong quest to find happiness, and a McDonald's nugget is hard to replicate at home.

Josh: And I'm projecting. And I'm projecting. In regards to a rut. I must be in a rut. Do you think, was I too negative?

Hamish: Oh no, no, you're not too negative. I was just sort of like, you know, it— maybe it's me projecting from you going, ah, but you know, surely you just can't do the same old Hamish forever. And do you feel like you're in a rut?

Josh: Okay, but it's fun. Like, there is something fun. There is something fun. Like, yeah, it is. I didn't even get to ask you what your biggest challenge is, which is the coaching question. What's your biggest challenge?

Hamish: Yeah, but I, but, but I I have read, I'm reading the same book at the moment, so I feel like I'm too, I'm too ready for this. Well, this is the problem, because then I know you're gonna go, and what else? And what else?

Josh: Thank you, Hamish Blake. Uh, total pleasure. Have you got LEGO Masters? Are you working on that? Is that coming?

Hamish: Oh yeah, I mean, we actually do start filming in a couple of weeks, but long, this is long tail promo for season 3, which I think will air probably, you know, May or something next year. Can I just say quickly on the, um, Audio Technica? Yeah, well, I just said to Josh before we started recording, I was like, wow, these mics are really good, which I genuinely mean. I've been doing a bit of podcast stuff from home and I'm on a shitty mic. The Audio Technica ones are incredible. And then Josh said, you can keep it. Yeah. And I was like, I feel like I'm gonna do a huge ad for these guys because, well, they're an audio partner.

Josh: They are people— I'll give you a tip with microphones. For whatever reason, USB microphones, condenser microphones for the most part, a condenser microphone is an always-on thing. So it's like listening, right? Whereas a dynamic microphone, it is activated by noise. And so the thing is dynamic mics, which you're using, being nice and close, this is what all the, like most broadcast like, um, yeah, yeah, that's what you want. It's like the dynamic type of thing. There's some like, yeah, so I would highly recommend that one's the, the dynamic mic. It's like the AT something. What do you have? You got—

Hamish: it comes with a little mini stand. Yeah, which I'm— when you're like, hey, you can keep it. And can I keep the headphones? Because they look like they're brand new. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah, because I tore the bag— I tore the box in the bag on the headphones. It's like, oh no, they've— because I was like, Josh, You know, you dropped these at my house last night and I was like, he's gone to so much effort boxing this up. I was, as I was unpacking them, I was like, man, he really cares about his gear. These look like mint condition. Like I was feeling ashamed at the state that I keep my like headphones or cameras and stuff in. I don't have boxes. As I was unpacking it and then I was unpacking the mic box going, look at all the cables. He's like done them perfectly. But it's brand new.

Josh: Yeah, you can get them like Officeworks and stuff. Like it's that microphone is only a $150 microphone. Kind of.

Hamish: Yeah, it's really solid. It's really solid. I mean, RØDE do good stuff too.

Josh: Yeah, so RØDE, can I just say what RØDE do great? They have their RØDECaster. So if you want to—

Hamish: Yeah, we use the RØDECaster at Andy's house.

Josh: It's unbelievable. So if you want to plug in multiple microphones, so if you're doing— And your phone.

Hamish: And you can just Bluetooth your phone to the RØDECaster. It's unreal.

Josh: Yeah, RØDE's great for the RØDECaster stuff. The USB microphone. The Audio Technica dynamic mic. I've said Rode should do a dynamic mic. It's the problem. They don't do a dynamic USB.

Hamish: This could be a separate podcast. You want to make this a separate podcast?

Josh: The one thing that I would say, there's no— I don't like the Yeti. The Yeti's the real big one that looks like a pill, and people don't know where to point it, and they end up pointing it the wrong way. But the the stands, there isn't a good USB mic stand. And so that there, that's actually—

Hamish: you've given me this solid hot stand.

Josh: So that, that, that is a—

Hamish: I understand it's a Rode. It doesn't quite fit the top.

Josh: Exactly. So what I've done is I've taken a Rode mic, their desk mount stand, Frankenstand, and then I couldn't get the, the, the Audio Technica stand or whatever. I couldn't get the, um, I couldn't rip off the holder. And so then I had to find just a mic holder. So it is a Frankenstein solution.

Hamish: But the thing is, I don't know if you heard me before, I said Frankenstein. Yes, exactly.

Josh: And I missed it. The— no, it's great. I think there's, um, the one other tip I'll give people is a solid internet connection. You've been great. You've been tethering. Use USB if you've got data on your phone and you don't have—

Hamish: Oh no, I don't. Is this going to cost me money?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, this is going to cost—

Hamish: Oh no, I only have 1 meg. I have 1 meg complimentary emergency use. You're on Fiji.

Josh: This is going to cost you a fortune.

Hamish: Yeah, I put my VB in, I'm going to put myself in Alaska.

Josh: Um, and that, and the other thing is you want to have the microphone nice and close to you. Any microphone— Two-finger rule. Yeah, the— any microphone where it's like, oh, I can place it on my desk and it's going to sound good. There's a thing called a signal-to-noise ratio. And so if you imagine if you've got a computer fan and the computer fan's making noise and you've got the microphone not close to your mouth.

Hamish: There's so many they sell with you just chucking on your desk for gamers and stuff to like do Twitch stuff. I'm like, this is going to be a terrible listening experience because you're going to hear the kitchen as well as you're going to hear what's happening in your bedroom or whatever.

Josh: There's been a huge shortage though of microphones, just so you know, across the board. No doubt.

Hamish: Every single person in the world has a podcast now, so they've become like face masks. Like we all need 2 or 3 of them on the go at one time. Well, sure.

Josh: Yeah, they're going to be able to—

Hamish: I broke the stand. Here's my only negative for Audio-Technica. Not their fault at all, but the little desk stand that this mic came with, because yeah, you gave me this big Frankenstand. Very funny way of describing the thing that you've given me. I thought the— so the attachment on the little stand clips onto this mic, and so I went to screw it off. I was like, so that's exactly—

Josh: so that's what I was trying to do.

Hamish: Snapped it. Yeah, I'll show you.

Josh: And so that's what I was trying to— does it actually come off so you could use it? Or no? Yeah, so that's what I was hoping. I think a tip for any of these brands would be to give you a mic holder that you can then put on your own stand. So you can have a desk stand or whatever it is.

Hamish: Because it looks— I don't know if you can see that— like it looks like it's going to turn.

Josh: Yes, it's going to turn.

Hamish: Yeah. And it just completely snapped the plastic.

Josh: It's, it's, that's the one area that though, but podcasting, all of this, all the tech is going a long way. We've got a website called makingpodcasts.com. We do like free training. Like we've got like all these blog posts on the best USB microphone. How do I—

Hamish: let me ask you this. How soon until— because the one thing you notice about podcasting is just like there's just cables everywhere, right? Yeah, what's the cable solution? Is it either a mic that has like a vacuum cleaner style retractable cable in it, and— or is it— and it's just, just cables galore. Or are we going to get to a stage where we're like good enough to have wireless microphones and wireless headphones?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, is 5G going to solve that?

Hamish: Is this the Internet of Things? No, you tell me, Josh, you're younger, you understand this stuff.

Josh: No, I don't think so. I think that what will The problem is that— so what— so with the RODECaster specifically, why that's such a good product is because it's all built in. It's all built in, right? Whereas like with what we do, the Frankenstein stuff, this is the business we're in where it's like taking random bits and putting it together. Yeah.

Hamish: And so to be like, it's like an episode of Robot Wars.

Josh: Well, this is what I— this is the next thing that I was talking to Mr. 97 about our Producer is getting a Pelican case. And so I want to get to a point where I can drop you off a Pelican case, you open it up, you plug in the power, and it's got lights. So it's got lights, it's got the camera, it's got a microphone, it's got a 5G modem. And so I don't have to say, hey, plug in your internet, do all that. You open it up and you are remote, and we connect straight into it. We have remote desktop so we can control at all. That's where I think that— because the thing is, like, radio, like, they're pretty slow. Like, when it comes to, like, outside broadcast stuff, they use these really expensive— and it's all in-house made.

Hamish: Like, you see so much of the stuff. Like, maybe, yeah, anything you want to do that's like, yeah, roaming around. Like, in the early days, early days, I did a thing on the Fox Breakfast Show where I was controlled. This is a bit of You know, this is a bit of stuff that wouldn't fly these days. I was controlled, it was called Street Bitch, and I just had to do whatever. I had to wear an earpiece. I think it was loosely based off, you know, The Man Show had the kid that they would like control. Yes. Yes. To like say stuff to. So, I wasn't that young, but I was like 19 or 20 or something. And I had an earpiece in and I had to like get in a cab or like go in a lingerie store and say weird stuff.. And the actual, like, physics of how that worked, like the telemetry of how the system worked, was I had a mobile phone, like an old, like these, those, that was like a Nokia that had a Nokia jack coming out of it into this massive box that split it because they wanted good audio too. Well, they wanted better audio because it would have still just been coming through the phone line. I wasn't recording it locally. So, they— this massive box split it into like an XLR for a microphone that I had to like put up my shirt to like clip on to have a— clearly wearing a lapel mic. And then they would like hope that it was just not noticed. And then an earpiece that ran into my ear because they didn't want it on a hands-free. They wanted it like on a better system than a hands-free. And then wear a backpack to like house the whole thing. And so, everywhere I went, I had to have the backpack on.

Josh: So, why don't you just take your backpack? Pack it back off. You're in a—

Hamish: like getting into a cab just with a backpack on, squashing it down on the seat. The guy's like, don't put it in the boot. Nah, nah, nah, I'm all good. And just like the electronics just digging into my back. And, but you know, that was— they were like, there's no other way to do this, that's how we have to do it. So they were like soldering it. Like Andrea, the technician at Foxit, she was just like, like soldering it in the workshop there to make it work. So radio does have— everywhere you look there's like those made-up in-house solutions because they're very clever people, but they're just— the technology doesn't exist. Yeah. And there's a—

Josh: and obviously there's just not scale. But now that everyone's doing a podcast, you can see the companies doing all of this sort of stuff. Like internet, for instance. Like you talk about where you live and not having great internet. We have in our office. So, there's an ISP that would— like an internet service provider. What they'll do is they'll take a fibre connection that's in those apartment blocks. So, here I get at home 400 megabits up and down, like ridiculous speed, right? Um, and thank you, that's all I wanted to say really, but I'll finish the storey anyway. So, thank you for having me, it's been great. The, uh, what they do is they take the, the buildings where there's fibre and, uh, they, they provide point-to-point internet. So, at our office in Abbotsford, uh, we couldn't get NBN, and so what we have is a small little tower that is point-to-point with an apartment block that's 400 metres away that gets fibre to them for their internet. Yeah, so we get 100 megabits up and down, uh, at our studio, which is good. But the problem is the thing that we're all talking about now— well, not everyone, probably just me— but, uh, latency. So it's like when you do a speed test, if you go to speedtest.net, is that the ping? Yes, the ping. You want the ping to be low. And if the ping's— so for instance, like, we can have this great conversation. This is what always annoys me about podcasters, where it's like they don't spend the time to work out the tech, and so they're clenching their asshole the whole show because they're worried that their internet's gonna die or whatever it is.

Hamish: And then you often notice the latency blows out the longer the connection is. So towards the end of the conversation, you're more out of sync than you are at the start.

Josh: Well, so here's one other final tip, which I think you'll find interesting. So, if you're recording video and audio, there's— if you try and sync the audio that you've recorded locally, like say on your computer with a camera, a lot of people have this issue where it's like you actually need to make sure that you set the sample rate right. You know, it's like 48 or 44.1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So most people in radio or whatever, they record at 44.1. If you record 44.1, which like GarageBand, all these different, uh, software will do that as a standard. That's what they use in like sort of— they used with CDs back in the day. But what that means is 44,000 times a second it's sampling the audio. 48k is 48,000, right? And so what happens is video uses 48. And so if you try and sync video from an audio file that's sampling 44.1, you start to— yeah, you basically end up drifting out. And so you'll sync it at the start like, perfect, we're in sync. Yeah. And then you're an hour in, you're like, oh, oh no, we're out of sync. Minutes out. Exactly. And so the, the big thing— this is something as, as people are doing more and more video— make sure if you are filming and you're using a camera that whatever you're recording on audio-wise, you set it to 48 because it's—

Hamish: I did find that interesting, but I'll be honest with you, while you were telling me, there was a part of my brain that I was just like, and this is why I've got Tim, or whatever. This is why— this is, this is the bit where I turned to Tim and be like, did you know about this, mate? Make sure— I'm not responsible for this, you just set it so it's— it's very easy.

Josh: It's very, it's very easy.

Hamish: I don't even care that it's very easy. I just don't want it to be my responsibility.

Josh: Just on your Zoom, on your Zoom recorder or whatever you're using, your portable recorder, just from now on switch it to 48 because it would just mean that you have less, less issues.

Hamish: And I won't, but I will get someone to do it for me. See, see how this is— I'm not completely not that Hamish anymore.

Josh: Yeah, it was really— the engineers are loving it. The, um, the, uh, This Week in Radio Tech, one of my favourite podcasts where they have Engineers from radio talking about like, uh, the technical stuff. Wow.

Hamish: I mean, I know we've gone really, really long for today, which I've loved, but I wonder if anyone sees the length of this podcast and goes, oh wow, I mean, it's gone long, I should jump to the end to see if like that's where all the good stuff is, and then they just get this bit.

Josh: Well, you would— you probably want, uh, you might remember the first time we ever did a podcast, we'd only just really met, and I was so excited to have you on Josh Speaking. It was a pod— it was— this was 2013 or whatever. And I was just crapping on, as I am now, and I said, oh, I'm just gonna go piss and then I'll come back and let's finish this. And you're like, oh man, like, I think my car's actually— like, I've got to— I've got to go. And so it went from me being like, hey man, I'm just— I need to piss, can I be back? To, that's the end of Josh speaking. Thanks for listening. So if you can at least give me the honours to say, uh, you've got it. I'm out of time.

Hamish: I've got shit to do. You have to wrap it.

Josh: I've got to wrap it. Thank you for wearing the Daily Talk Show hoodie as well. Um, that's yours. That's yours to, uh, keep. I mean, you must get some nice praise.

Hamish: It's actually a very good hoodie.

Josh: Yeah, it is. It's ANS color, good, um, good quality. That is true.

Hamish: And I'm not— and I'm like, you know, I'm trying to just not I'm trying to like purge my wardrobe, but I will wear this and I will wear it. But there are some where people are like, I mean, this is a bit of a speech up because he'll know who he is if he mentions this, but I like ran into a dude that we used to, I know, sorry, you're trying to wrap me up, but quick last storey about a jumper.

Josh: Yeah, I've really got to go, but thank you.

Hamish: Sorry, I don't know, you've got to pee a second. So there was a guy that we all like years ago, I would say the thing that started that transitioned me from being like kind of 10 years of just doughiness, like not fatness, but doughy unfitness, just no concept of fitness. There was a bunch of like about 8 of us that started boxing at this gym in Richmond, which is sadly not there anymore. It was like this real old school gym called Leo Barry's, and we loved it. Like, we were just like, it was like floorboards and it was like an exercise museum sort of thing. Like, it had those dumbbells that are like solid steel with the round ball on the end, like iron, you know, strong bone, like the strongman sort of thing. Yeah, very, just kind of like just lift up a cinder block kind of thing. And it was just old-school boxing stuff. So, it was just like flip tyres, hit them with sledgehammers, punch a heavy bag. That's it. Like, you know, it was just full of like sayings like, you know, there is a cost to like, you know, achieving greatness. It's 100 barrels of sweat. Like, pay now. It's like Gold's Gym in the States.

Josh: What's the one? What's the big one?

Hamish: Yeah, that's like Arnie's sort of one. But so, we love this place. It was just like super dusty and like the mats, because it was floorboards and stuff. Like when you had to do like sit-ups and ab work and stuff, the mats that they had were like the ones you remember from primary school that are all like stacked up in a pile, those slippery vinyl mats and stuff. So anyway, loved it. Like there's a trainer there that would sort of take us, and he— it was good, it was fine. But the thing that drew us together was like the group, and we loved the group, and we loved how old school the gym was, sort of thing. And so when it, when it kind of ended, like we all fled off, we all, we all put in like a good kind of 4 years there. We'll float off. Anyway, ran into the trainer the other day and he's like, mate, how's it going? You know, you know, I'm doing— he was training someone in the park and he was like, do you want, do you want to do a session? It's like, oh man, I'm— thank you, but I'm, you know, honestly, like, I just sort of exercise when I can. Like, it doesn't work for me to have a trainer because I got kids and it's really about just going, I've got 45 minutes right now, I can do it. Like, going next Thursday at 10 just doesn't work. Oh, he goes, mate, I've got a jumper for you. I've got a jumper. I finally got merch made. And I was like, oh, that's— I don't— thank you, man, but I don't— and he goes, hey mate, wait here. What size are you? I'll get one for Zoe too. Like, yeah, but mate, we don't need one. I'm not trying to—

Josh: Every business has— I like to think that a podcast is in the merch, like it's an easy sort of stretch to say.

Hamish: And there's a reason to wear this jumper. It's like you've been on the show. And as I'm sure there's a reason to wear that particular fitness brand's jumper because it's like, I train with this person and I'm happy to be an ambassador. But, but the framing of being like, I've finally got them done, man, come on, come to the car, I've got a bunch for you, like, you've got it, like, and, and he was like, and it's taken me ages to get him, but I've finally got him. I think it's not the sell I'm looking for here. I'm not gonna wear the jumper. It's a real—

Josh: I just had to be honest and go, in general, I feel like I fall into it where it's just like like you'll notice that I put 2 stickers into the box. Is it because you went to so much effort to get it?

Hamish: You're like, now I've put all that effort in, I want to share it.

Josh: The thank you card, you know, the thing that I wrote on that says the Daily Talk Show. Like we spent so much on that. I didn't even, I was going to put it in an envelope. Like if we've got the Daily Talk Show envelope.

Hamish: That's a great touch. But just saying to someone who has no association with the show. Hey, I want you to wear the jumper. And I just had to say to him, man, I'll be honest, I have a lot of jumpers. I have a lot of jumpers. I'm not trying to show off. And we're getting into something. It's a low-level flex, but I have a lot of jumpers and this, I would just give this to charity. So if you want them to have it, you should just give it to charity.

Josh: I think that's really good that you, because I feel like I'm, I'm very bad at sort of like that, the decline, like being able, I guess you would have to have gotten good at that? Because I could imagine a bunch of businesses being like, mate, we've just given this thing for you. Like, it's funny, uh, you know, like PR people that, you know, they'll send you something. It's like, I didn't want it. Yeah, yeah, you got this thing for like, we're gonna give you this thing for free. And then it's also like, just any sense that you should have to post, like, oh, that—

Hamish: we're very clear on that from long ago. We're like, in fact, we went through, Zoe and I, because it's, it's usually handled by— and sorry, I know you have to piss. It was usually—

Josh: I actually don't need to, I'm dehydrated. I've already absorbed it.

Hamish: It's usually handed by like—

Josh: Can I just quickly, no, before you say this, you know how like I was saying how good the Mount Franklin fizzy— Oh, you love that.

Hamish: Love that Mount Franklin.

Josh: So, this is a mango one. The problem is this is just because you're on, you've got more clout. So, maybe who owns, who owns Mount Franklin? Whoever owns Mount Franklin. Coke, I think. Coke. Guys, can you make a bigger can for the mango? Because at the moment this is, this is 250ml. I can't stay hydrated on a 250ml can. This is silly.

Hamish: We've done some stuff. We've done ads for those guys on radio.

Josh: So, I think 3, they have the bigger ones. They have the raspberry ones have got like a 330. But yeah, my point is I definitely don't need to piss because I'm— Oh, so there's raspberry?

Hamish: So, there's raspberry. And mango gets a 250. Yeah.

Josh: So, this is the whole thing. I think that what they must do is it's like we're trialling this specific flavour and Bree— She was rationed. Yeah. So, Bree rations it. So, because I went through 10 cans yesterday, which is way too— David Attenborough. Is pissed and I'm pissed at myself. Like, that's too many cans.

Hamish: Just in your pants.

Josh: That's like litres of fizzy water. And so anyway, what were you going to say?

Hamish: Oh, oh no, just on the PR stuff. There's like 10 kind of companies that I guess manage it for people to just like send them stuff to go, you know, whatever. Like, hey, you know, these are some new shoes. Like, oh, we're a boutique wallet line. Or, you know, like, hey, we're doing soap. And it like, there's a lot of reasons you get sick of it, but I mean, you don't want to— you get sick of it because like you didn't ask for this stuff and you didn't want this stuff. If you want to be a minimalist, there's like a lot of junk. And it's like, and it just, your whole house is like full of a giant box with straw packing and a card from them going, we thought you'd really be into these, you know, these like 3 packs of dried sauces. It's revolutionising pasta. You're like, If I want, like, you know, there's probably $8 of value in these sauces here. There's a massive box, like we're doing like 5 or 6 shoeboxes worth of packing to send you this with the, and some cellophane over the top and the hype of like, look at these new pasta sauces. And it's just so, it's like there's tonnes of waste. It's so pointless. You're like, when have you ever seen us be like, oh my God, thanks for the sauces, I'm loving them. Like, so we went through a thing a few years ago where we were like, had to just go to— tried to say to all the PR agencies, like, I don't know, we're obviously on the list, please take us off the list. Like, we're just chucking this stuff out and we just got to get— like, we just want to be off the list. So thankfully we're kind of off the list. So a few things sneak through sometimes, but yeah, we're off the list. And it's any good free thing, anything where you're like, that was— and that's the other thing too. So often though, we're sent to our management and then we'd like go and, you know, they'll be like, hey, you got a bunch of stuff here, and you go, there isn't— there's like nothing here that I would have voluntarily gone, I want that thing. There's stuff where you're like, well, I can't throw it out because it obviously has a use. So, someone's like, here's some boots. You're like, well, they work as boots.

Josh: Lockpicking thing could be good. Can you pick the lock within 30 seconds or is it going to take you too long?

Hamish: No, I haven't learned that yet, but that's a great example. That's something that I wanted, so I bought it. That's the other way this can work. We're like, hey, if we want something, we'll probably just buy it. So, please don't try and guess. Out of the 10 trillion things that you can possibly buy on Earth, please don't try and guess the few that we might want. If we want them, we'll buy them.

Josh: What also must be hard around like, uh, people who it's like, oh, you don't need to pay us for this, like just the day-to-day shit.

Hamish: Like, I could imagine like, uh, not that much, but our policy is always happy to pay. Yeah, it's easy if someone— it's always a weird thing, but if someone's like, you know, and No need to, um, because it's just always like, mate, it's, you know, if it's sort of like, well, I'm just trying to think of an example, but like a restaurant I did, like, so the one and only time this has ever happened where it was like, no, where like a PR is like, hey, will you come to this restaurant?

Josh: It was so clearly, I also knew that the influence that I have, uh, isn't there for this, like even for this meal like that I was getting, but just this weird thing of like They're bringing food and then you finish up and then it's like there's no bill. Like, like, ah, see, like a part of the transition is you need to like pay and then you leave. There's something very weird about having this experience and then going.

Hamish: And I agree. I agree. And me and Rye had that. We made a— We did a video for— There's a pizza place we love in Carlton called Capitano, and we know the guys. So good. It's the best. Like the square thing? Like the grandma's pie. And it's honestly the best pizza. I think the best Italian place in Melbourne. Love it. Just, you know, it's a go-to place. Anyway, they're like, well, we're stunned we didn't do delivery. This is pre-corona. This is like last year. They're like, we're going to do delivery. We're going to pick up pizzas and stuff. We're like, you know, and they're like, we know that, like, you know, because we know you guys, would you be interested in doing something? We're like, yeah. So we thought of this sketch to film and we had a lot of fun making it. And we're like, please don't pay us. And they're like, well, you can just have free pizza if you guys do that. And I was like, that to me seems like worth, you know, more than— way more than money. The idea that we could go to Capitano and eat for free would be incredible. And in that moment, I got so excited because it's like, this is my favourite restaurant. I can't believe we get to go here and eat for free. This is all I've ever dreamed of is— and then you own it. So then we did the thing, then we start going to the restaurant, then I feel terrible at the end of the meal. Everything you order, it looks like you're being an asshole. Like, as soon as like, actually, we will get a pizza and it just looks like you're being a jerk because, you know, you're eating for free. It's not a fucking pizza. It's like, can you believe this guy? And so, I was like, honey, this is— This has backfired because now I don't want to go because I don't want them thinking I'm an asshole who's going here because it's for free. And so, then I rang the owner. I said, can I make a deal with you? I'm having a birthday party. Can I just get Could I please just get, you know, like 20 pizzas? Yeah. Yeah. And that's so much pasta.

Josh: Well, that's how we fixed it.

Hamish: And then I'm done. And then can I go back to paying? Because I don't like this awkwardness of just wandering out at the end of a meal. And we did it and it was an amazing, great party. Everyone loved the pizzas. Perfectly timed. It was great.

Josh: Well, yeah, we'll convert. Converts from that. Like, it is delicious. The square, like just the actual, it's almost like a bread. Like, it feels like it's almost like a bread. Sort of thing, right?

Hamish: And they bake it in the cheese and stuff. I mean, there's probably somehow there was probably 2 kilogrammes of cheese on an 800-gram pizza. It's terrific. Yeah, it's very good.

Josh: Yeah, they do delivery. It's definitely worth it.

Hamish: Yeah, they do. And their cocktails are great too. I mean, I'm off the system now, so you know this is a genuine endorsement. This is not just me trying to get more followers.

Josh: Influencing is a weird space. I wonder what, like, surely influencers won't feel like— Surely influencing will change in regards to like with everything that's happened with COVID like, hospo, surely we just all need to agree that like, let's just post about businesses.

Hamish: Oh, that's what we mean, those policies like, and Zoe's a huge advocate of this, is like, if something's good, I will post, I will pay and I'll post. Because she's like, I'm in the position where I can, I don't need it to be this weird exchange to get like free shoes or whatever. I will just I think she has a great policy and does a great job of like actively going, these are good.

Josh: It's like Hey Tiger. Like, Bree's the marketing director of Hey Tiger. It's like people are like, oh, how did Zoe post? It's like, oh, like there's no— There's no deal. She just likes it. Yeah.

Hamish: Yeah. And that's what you should use social media for, to be like, hey, I assume that if you're following me or you're aware of me, you'd be— there's a chance you'd be interested to know what I think. And here's something I think. I think it's great. Having said that, with something like a Tourism Australia, like that is a commercial deal, but it's But the reason you would do something like that, or for us is to go, yeah, but this is a thing that can only, you know, if we just started going, hey, out of nowhere, we've decided we'll be ambassadors for tourism. People will be like, who told you you could be the ambassadors for tourism? So, it felt more natural for us to be like, well, this is, that's why you'd take a deal like that, as opposed to, you know, all the other ones that come across the desk to be like, well, this is something we love and you would do so. So, I guess that kind of cheques that box in that way.

Josh: Did you do the ad pre-COVID or was that a pain in the ass to do? How did that happen?

Hamish: We filmed an ad with me and Zoe just as COVID was hitting. So, it was like people were wearing masks and stuff on set. Because initially the ad is and will be again one day is us like in the Kimberley or like, you know, in all these cool places around Australia. That's what we're so excited to do. We were meant to be filming that like in July and then it all slowed down. So, then they sort of reached out to go, okay, would actually it feels a bit more appropriate to do an ad where we're, you know, like at home working. And then I feel— then there's like another ad that's like a voiceover, just me doing a voiceover, um, that I recorded in my bedroom under my doona, um, to go with their ad. So yeah, we were doing that now. And then as stuff opens up, we can actually get out there and keep making some stuff where we're actually in the cool places that you can go.

Josh: Great. Thank you, Hamish Blake. For people who are listening on the podcast, we record video for all of these, so they're all up on YouTube. But if you're watching on YouTube, you can subscribe The Daily Talk Show on all the podcast apps. What podcast app do you have? A specific one that you use?

Hamish: Well, we're with PodcastOne, our podcast. But sure. You don't have to answer. Well, I am— Can answer truthfully, and I use the Apple Apple Podcast.

Josh: Yeah, sure, yeah, it's easy, it's easier. And the thing is, all the, all the PodcastOne podcasts are on Apple Podcasts. You don't have to use—

Hamish: and they're cool with that— wherever you get your podcasts.

Josh: Exactly right. It's a daily talk show. Thank you, Hamish Blake, subbing in for, for Tommy Jackett. And, uh, yeah, hopefully, uh, you get out of that real soon.