Daniel Flynn On Thankyou's No Small Plan

Daniel: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show episode 881.

Josh: And today we've got a special guest, the co-founder of Thankyou, Daniel Flynn. Welcome to the show, mate.

Daniel: Hey, thank you so much. I feel to be number 881, that's incredible.

Tommy: I mean, we've been following everything that you've been doing for ages. You came back from New Zealand. How long did you spend in New Zealand?

Daniel: We were there for about a year and a half. So it's really, yeah, it was a well-needed break/launch and rethink of the whole Thankyou model.

Tommy: Yeah, Tommy and I always talk about living abroad, what it's going to do for us. It's, you know, if we were to live somewhere else, we would change our life and, you know, be better humans. What's the reality of actually moving? What sort of perspective did you gain?

Daniel: Well, look, I think your hypothesis is it's real. Like we did, Did we become better humans? Maybe. We definitely rethought things. I think there's something about when you physically, I don't know about you guys, but like when I fly, if I get in a plane, which is a distant memory now, but you just have a different perspective. Moving country or city, you just, you get out of what was comfortable and then you start to reanalyze, you know? And I think for myself and co-founder Justine, who's my wife, like we had a real rethink of us as individuals, as leaders, as a family, the whole company. And yeah, you know what, the fruit was really good. And it was good to enjoy some time over in New Zealand.

Josh: Well, as much as, I mean, there are ideas that you're having. A friend of mine, he's a motivational guy and a motivational speaker, and he says it's not a geographical problem, it's a you problem. And so I don't listen to that. I like to think that travelling does bring something out of me. But just on the idea thing, that is a concept. I'll move overseas and things will be different. You guys have had a pretty large-scale idea of late that you're currently in the middle of. Um, run us through what, what idea you've had and where you're up to to date.

Daniel: Yeah, cool. Well, look, and a lot of this came from New Zealand. We looked at what are we good at, what are we not good at, and we've really—

Josh: my mate doesn't know anything.

Tommy: If he does not know anything, I'll send him this after it.

Daniel: Um, so, so the Look, we've launched a bold idea, it's called No Small Plan, and essentially it's a call out to the world to say, hey, could you help get Thankyou, this social enterprise model, to the world? We've invited two groups of people. One of those groups just happens to be the biggest product companies on the planet. So P&G, Unilever, we sent them literally a 2 by 1 metre invitation, it's a giant crate by a 24-foot truck, at their head offices saying, hey, this is an invitation to change the world, and we're inviting them to help make and distribute Thankyou products. Globally. We've also invited 9 of their nearest competitors. We just need one, one partner to help. And then we've called out to consumers to say, hey, would you use your voice in this moment? Post 4 words, I mean are you, tag P&G, tag Unilever. The hashtag is #thankyoutotheworld. And it's this whole idea of us as consumers using our voice, big business using what they have, global manufacturing capabilities, and together taking a social idea to global scale and we hope taking us humanity one giant step closer to the end of extreme poverty.

Tommy: You guys are a leader in social enterprises. What have you learned about the social enterprise model since you began the journey?

Daniel: Yeah, look, I think it's, we've learned that it's important. You know, the world needs it. COVID has shown us even more so that fact, you know, right now charity donations are down. So, you know, honestly charities are in a tailspin. People aren't giving and in the sector we're in, focused on extreme poverty, it's gone from bad to worse. So there are 250 million people on the brink of famine. And if you think about that reality, plus charities who, they're there to kind of help solve that, they're down on donations. At the same time, Thankyou's up. I mean, we're up, we're at an all-time high in sales because we sell hand sanitizer and hand wash and consumers are still consuming. We just released some numbers on that, that we've just given a further $10 million to our impact partners from a few months sales. Industry during the pandemic. Wow. And that, that to us is like, hey, at a time when the world's in a tough spot, here's a model that works. Um, and it's not easy, I'll be honest. I mean, going to New Zealand, we sat back and we went, flip, we're going for over a decade now and we're nearly at burnout. Justine, um, she ended up having 3 months off. Doctors said to her, yeah, your health's not in a good spot, you need to have a break or your body will stop. And she had a break and her body stopped. So she had 3 months in bed and then like a 9-month recovery journey. I was pretty close, you know, I ended up having a few months off and we just went, man, what's going on? And we realised that social enterprise is a cool concept, but in our case, we're head to head with the biggest companies on the planet and it is tough. And so whilst the model's important and needed, you know, it is a really tough battle out there. Against some pretty big machines. And so we, we got to work rethinking, uh, how we'll get to market. Not changing the mission, but kind of flipping the game on its head. And there enters No Small Plan.

Josh: How, you know, getting to a flat spot, especially when it translates in your body's health, how do you— how did you guys pick yourselves back up and actually say this is worth continuing doing what we're doing?

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think there was some pretty deep soul searching, you know. I think there was, you know, anyone who's started anything or worked to make an idea a reality knows it is not easy. I mean, it just, it always— you think it will, how hard could it be? And then you basically live out how hard it could be. And we did, and, and we got smashed. Like, we're pretty open about it. We, we— the bigger we got, it's like the harder we got hit. Um, which in part is almost flattering. You know, I bumped into a kind of a CEO of a very big competitor, and I made kind of a joke. I was like, so it's getting a bit harder to launch these days? And he's like, yeah, well, you know, when Thankyou first started, no one probably took it too seriously, but now, you know, it works and people back it, and the industry probably handles it different. And in one sense, it was a compliment, but In other sense, it's hard to live through that. You know, we launched into the baby category a couple of years ago in Australia. You think nappies or diapers, depending on what part of the world you're listening from, you think that's a fun category. I mean, it is, it's all-out war and it really was. And we went up against some pretty big business and how do you rethink? Well, we saw the results, what worked, we saw what didn't. And then we analyse what didn't work. And we ask the question, is there another way? And yeah, there are other ways. And so I think, I mean, for Justine and I, we are moved by two things. One is the mission, the purpose, and that's deep and it drives us. So that helps. And then also vision, like being able to see a future that could work. And I think once we had a bit of rest, we really went back to why did we start this? And then we had this vision of there is a way we could pull it off. And we met industry experts and we told them the plan, here's what we're gonna do. And they're like, "That'll never work. Like, you are asking the biggest companies on the planet to basically make a new box, a new box of partnership that they don't currently do." And that was true. You know, big companies that we're approaching usually acquire brands. Thank U, Can't Be Owned, it would take away from the entire model we have of all for our impact. But I think when you are led by a mission and purpose and you've got a vision, I don't know, we're kind of the people that can't unsee that. And so we just go, we'll go all in. And that's, that's what we're doing currently.

Tommy: When did you come up with the idea of No Small Plan? And did it take much to build the confidence to have another crack?

Daniel: Yeah, look, it did. The plan has been worked and reworked for at least 2 and a half years. Um, you know, that in fact it was planned to launch next year, and then COVID happened, and at first we thought delay the plan, and then we saw extreme poverty go from bad to worse and sales go from good to great. So like, bring the plan forward. Like, we just— this— the world needs it now. But, but for the last 2 and a half years, we've been looking at, um, what wasn't working, what was working. We discovered that as a brand, we were able to over-index and get results that literally are market-leading, but the easiest way I could put it is it's like we could launch ideas, uh, and get buy-in to those ideas like few other brands could, but sustaining those ideas against some of the biggest machines out there, that's where we would continue to kind of hit a ceiling. And so we thought, well, imagine if we did what we're kind of best in class at and we partnered with a global manufacturer who's really good at what they do. Together Actually together, there's no model like that currently in the market. And then we started to play that forward and think, this could change everything. So a couple of years ago, we were like, we're there. And then we spent time shopping around, getting advice, trying to think through how do we approach this? How would we do it privately, publicly, all of the things in between? And then we built a plan and spent time refining it. And to be honest, we would have liked another year, but we, you know, COVID changed the world in a bad way and maybe in a good way, and we just decided to go all in now.

Josh: Uh, you've got an epic promo video describing what mission you guys are on. I mean, it's, it's quite warm in my house and I was shivering. I was fucking moved, mate.

Daniel: It was, it was awesome.

Josh: At the end, you, you, the, you say this awesome line. You say, uh, you, you're probably asking, what if it doesn't work? And then you ask the question back, what if it does? I just love that because it's— everything in this world has started with a concept in your mind. I mean, is that a question though that you ask yourself, what if it doesn't work, at the start? And how, how, how have you translated it to get the action and moving forward that you have got at the moment.

Daniel: Yeah, look, it's a really, it's a powerful question, what if it does work? It's also a frustrating question for some people because, you know, you're the kid that's like, well, they ask the other, they ask a different question.

Josh: Answer my bloody question, mate.

Tommy: Yeah.

Daniel: And like, I think at Thankyou, we will think through an idea and play out the what if it doesn't work, as in how do you remove risk and how do we think of that. So, so you can't, like, naivety and beginner's mindset is part of the secret and the other part is learning and just being like relentless on learning. And by learning, I mean like we've entered a new type of business partnership model and this is what we're proposing. It's licensing, it's brand licensing. For those who are familiar with brand licensing, we've discovered that we've basically, we're creating a new category. We're just gonna call it the Thankyou license, which is like brand licensing, but a little outside of that box. But the only reason we can even create that, what we would propose as a bit of a new box, is because we learned about the other one. We learned how it would work for us and how it wouldn't. We thought through, is this possible? How do we remove risk for partners? And then we, we started to create it. Now, this is not a complete story. We'll find out in a few weeks if it worked or not. But part of the optimism and the focus on how could this work That's the Thankyou approach. I mean, you know, the world doesn't change until someone imagines it different and then goes all in on that. And that has been what's built Thankyou so far. And to be honest, it's the only way forward because we don't, you know, people are like, "Oh, is there another thank you out there that you're just trying to replicate?" There isn't. And I don't mean that in a proud way. There just isn't. There are so many organisations we borrow from, like love how they're doing this. Love how they're doing that. But we just don't see what we see in our mind in the market yet. And so that means we think we're going to have to take some pretty creative approaches and continue and ask that question, but what if it does work? And then the follow-up is like, but how could we? How could we make it work? And, you know, a good brainstorm, I think, begins with infinite possibility, not, you know, well, if it doesn't work risk, reputation, money, wasted time, investment. Like, that is— that leads to the most uninspiring brainstorm session you'll ever have.

Tommy: There's, um, there's a bunch of people in Melbourne— we're obviously in lockdown at the moment, but they'll be starting hopefully soon to transition into, you know, a new version of normal where they're going into their office again, having been, you know, hermits at home. I guess you've had a version of this being remote in New Zealand, away from your team? What were some of the coping mechanisms or tools that you used when coming back into the workplace to make sure that the team was comfortable and you were comfortable and that you were sort of optimized?

Daniel: Yeah, like, I think that there's two things that are really important. One is space. So when you get away, you create space, space to think. Space for ideas, space to discover, and that is so critical. So I think coming back in, one of the challenges with the office and the kind of this idea of the hustle and like, let's go, go, go, is you can become very much reaction-based or busy-based, and you're kind of addicted to this drug of like, if I'm just always busy and I get back to every email in time, then surely this thing will like drop. That's actually not the case. You can answer every single email that ever comes to you, turn up to every meeting and completely fail in all of your actual KPIs, like your real success. And so I think space is critical. So when you come back in, it's like, well, how do I keep the space that I got when I was away, when I was working from home? That's part one. But the second part, which almost contradicts it, but it's again, it's a balance, is like proximity. So being in New Zealand was great because we got space, but we also got disconnected. And unity, particularly as a team, unity is a very, very, very powerful thing. Like disunity, or like two visions, uh, which I think a good example right now without getting too political might be America, right? Two very different views on how the country should be and run. And, you know, and that, that's human nature. But what we're all kind of witnessing is this sort of like so divided that you can't even have a conversation, no one can move forward, and it's, it's kind of like a horror show that we're all watching in on. And hopefully there's a good resolve soon. But, um, I think when that happens in a business, in a startup, it's death. You're paralyzed, you can't move. And so there's something about when you, when you're together— and we've actually found this as a team, we're not in the office right now, we've been remote since March but we're meeting more regularly than ever on Zoom, 3 times a week. We feel more unified, more connected. Unity isn't like same thinking, it's actually diverse thinking, but you're together in that diverse thinking. And so I think sometimes when you create space, you can actually put at risk that incredible, like, feeling of unity you get as a particularly a smaller startup. Um, and so I think when people come back to the new normal, if you can get the balance between space but also, um, that feeling of, hey, we're united in this vision, mission. That's when you have a really, like, a well-thought-through, powerful team.

Josh: How's your relationship been with, uh, you know, what may happen in the future and where you are now? And, and how do you sort of— I mean, COVID for everybody has been that version of, I was planning something, but that's out the window. So yeah, how do you reconcile the sort of the future and, and where you want to get to?

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think that this disruption that the world's just had and is still going through is— I mean, we're seeing a very dark side of it, extreme poverty. There is a dark side in mental health. There is a dark side in the economic flow and effects and the health flow and effects from this pandemic. And it is— the more you look into that, it is dark and it is heavy, but I think there is also light and there is hope. And it's the hope that we all just discovered you can meet on Zoom. Small, small realization, but I have never in my life— if you said you'd be doing some kind of global campaign call-out thing from your house in a suburb in Melbourne, I would say no. You know, I, I have way too much status points with too many airlines, and I'll be flying around every minute, and I'll be like But no, no, the world just changed. And then we discovered that, you know, you can do things differently, um, and, and we're all going to have to. And I think that for me is the big realization, is we're going to have to do things different. Partnership, I think, is a big part of the future, in part because not everyone can travel as freely. But then I think also, does the world need heaps of replicated businesses or replicated charities or replicated ideas? No, I think the world needs every single one of us to figure out what are we uniquely good at and what have we got to bring and how do we work with others who've got something to bring too and through partnership solve the economic crisis and the health crisis and all of the flow-on effects, the mental health crisis, um, from, yeah, from this, this disruption.

Tommy: What about internal buy-in from your team when you have these big, you know, crazy ideas? I can imagine that there's a bit of selling in that you have to do. Do you have any tips or thoughts on the best way of approaching that?

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think this is where proximity is really critical, you know. I've fallen apart on this before, kind of flying in with a big idea and it's like And I can feel it and I'm like, oh, hang on a second. I really think it's critical for any point leaders or visionaries to like, yes, you have to be 30,000 feet as you think through your idea, but I think you've also got to be on the front line and connected to that, that real finger on the pulse with where the day-to-day is at. And if you do that, then I think a team member would have buy-in because you're not just some kind of, you haven't got some lofty future thought, you found a way to connect it to today's problems. And then someone who's like more focused on today can almost join your tomorrow thinking. So that's part of it. I think the other part too is just don't share everything at once. If you've got a big idea, you know, like bring it in bit by bit. You know, I often get asked, you know, oh, have you got a, what's your 10-year plan? I'm not sure if you guys are planning to ask what's our next 5, 10 years, but my answer is like, look, we've got some big dreams and hopes, but we really focus on today. Like, I've kind of got this like cut and paste answer, which is basically me not saying, yeah, we got so many ideas and I'm gonna freak you out because I'm just gonna share them all and then you're gonna be like, nah, this is nuts.

Tommy: Was there a time though that you did that? Like, I guess if you look at, um, Thank you was founded on water bottles and obviously that you've had a big change in regards to approaching that. How do you reconcile? 'Cause I even feel it's like things are constantly changing. Like COVID especially means that, as you said, you might be saying, we're doing it next year. And then all of a sudden you're saying, actually, I think it makes sense to be moving this forward. Um, how do you reconcile and sort of communicate your change in mind?

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think so, so big vision's incredibly compelling because it's big, and I think people buy into like, I love a big lofty dream. But then I think being able to show the incremental like steps to get there is critical. Often I've fell apart on that. Justine's been better, others in our team, and We've got a great team now to kind of balance that, but I think people need to see the incremental steps, uh, A, so you know what to do next, B, if a pivot comes, and our normal is pivoting, the true north doesn't change. So the, the big plan and where we're heading and why we're going there, that doesn't change, but how we get there and the steps we take does. And I, I think how— it's about overcommunication. So when something comes in, um, you, you have to dig down to your true north, and then the change you're about to make, how does that better serve the true north? And I think if there's a strong link between the two, I think people will be like, yeah, it's kind of crazy to move a launch forward at a time when the whole world is so disrupted, and who knows how it's all going to work. But actually, I can see the logic behind it, and I can see it's important, and I can see it's better. Therefore, I'm in. And I think once someone's in you know, you know, the feeling stuff.

Josh: Yeah, the feelings you had when you set out to start Thank U versus the feeling in this idea that you're currently in, is there any similarities there?

Daniel: Uh, yeah, there isn't a sense of scale, you know. I think when we first started out, we were 19 years old, 21 years old, we had these huge global dreams From day one, if you met us, we're like, this is global product for global consumers, gonna make a global impact. Give us like 12 months, this thing will be everywhere. And then life kind of just got us, you know. And when I say life, reality, true reality of starting anything. It was slower, it was harder, it was— I mean, to be honest, all important lessons that we wouldn't go back and skip. They were critical, that led to who we are today and how we even think and operate today. But I think the similarities back to 2008, 12 years ago, was that kind of bright-eyed ambition of let's go. The difference now is after 12 years of learning a lot of things through failure and through pain, of— I think it's better positioned us so that yes, this is a call out, and yes, we are asking two of the biggest companies of which we only need one of them. But you might have also seen the video, we sent the same invitation to 9 of their nearest competitors because at the end of the day, we're not naive to kind of hope that someone has a goodwill moment and joins the movement. We hope that exists, but also, you know, we've learned about competition and the power of it, and we need one, one of 11, to which has been a few weeks of very interesting Zoom calls early morning, late at night, and it's kind of working now. We don't have a result yet, but I think we've learned, we've learned about big vision and ideas, but then also how do you apply them in ways that will actually equal an outcome, you know, impact or dollars or growth or whatever it is you're aiming for.

Tommy: So when you're going into one of these Zoom meetings, what's the first one? What are you expecting? What's a— what's— what does success look like on meeting number 1?

Daniel: Uh, look, I think success is the partner that we're meeting, or potential partner that we're meeting, seeing what we see. Um, I have no doubt at what they may be thinking, um, watching the campaign go down and thinking, man, who are these kids? And they're just trying to bully us in the public. And I, like, I, I can think of all the things that they're thinking. Well, at least a few of them. But the hope is that they walk away seeing what this truly is, and it's a really unique moment in history, and they see the logic behind why we've done it the way we've done it. And I hope they can actually see it's the only way it could work at a time like this. And then I hope they walk away genuinely, you know, considering what this partnership could be and not too caught up on maybe the campaign that has been.

Josh: You mentioned charitable donations. Down of current times. I feel like it seems— that seems bizarre. I mean, I'm not in the world in that space like you are, really consuming all those numbers. I think about the empathetic and sort of, um, you know, the causes people are getting behind, and visually you're seeing through social media. In my mind, it would seem to go the other way. What is— do you know the reasons as to why people aren't getting behind these charities like they may have used to?

Daniel: Uh, I mean, I think anytime uncertainty is introduced to humans, we all freeze up, um, and, and some for longer than others. So I think the economic kind of flow and effect from the pandemic to Australia, to the US, UK, everywhere— I think that is people starting to wonder, what does the future look like? When's this all going to go back to normal? I think a younger generation just woke up to the fact that you should probably have 6 months to a year's money in the bank. You know, not— that's something that our parents' generation are like, it's a non-negotiable, whereas the younger generation's like, but credit cards, you know. And, and now, and now people are going to wake up to the world can stop without any notice for, for quite a long time. And, and I think so that we're going to see a change in consumer behavior, certainly in giving. And giving is often the first thing to stop when economic uncertainty kicks in. And obviously our lens is through extreme poverty, but you know, there are charities like, you know, Oxfam's very well known globally. They've pulled out of 18 countries, dropped I think 1,400 staff. Charities are pulling out of countries they can't fund them, where the data is basically saying that upwards of 100 million people will go back into extreme poverty off the back of the economic crisis. Bill and Melinda Gates just released a study that's real, so it's not a prediction, but to date 37 million people have gone back in, um, to what's known as less than $1.90 a day. So it's like— and governments are pulling out funding from aid and development and putting into like a pandemic or COVID response, which it's short-term responsible, but it's leaving the world's poor Some are saying one, others are saying two decades.

Tommy: We're gonna—

Daniel: we're about to go back two decades in all of the work we collectively did. So like, in a thank you context, we sit here going, man, the world is not in a great spot. Everyone knows that. But I'll be honest, just plugging my power in because my computer's not in a great spot. Uh, but, but like, this is not in our newsfeed, you know. I'm not turning on the news, I'm not getting a lot about what's happening in developing nations, I'm getting a lot about what's happening here in Melbourne, Australia.

Josh: Did Dan Andrews actually botch the whole, you know, quarantine? That's what—

Daniel: Totally.

Josh: That's all the news is.

Daniel: That and a Trump tweet, you know, like it's sort of everything.

Tommy: How have you changed as a person due to the pandemic?

Daniel: I feel like the change started You know, if we go back to New Zealand and then even before, just before the pandemic at Thankyou, we went through our own little crisis. We had a whole bunch of supply chain issues and, you know, a customer put in a claim for a huge amount of money that they said we owed them and we're like, we don't owe them that. And then we checked, we did. An accounting error. Wasn't huge, but we missed it and it added up over time. And so in February, we were in our own mini crisis and I think straight away, For Justine and I, we went straight down to values, right? Straight back to like, why are we here? Why are we doing this? And we were looking down the barrel of Thankyou's by far worst financial year ever. We were looking off the edge of a cliff that was scary. But what I love about vision, mission, and a united team is you'll do whatever it takes to get it done. And so we got through that issue. And JobKeeper, that helps as well. Well, JobKeeper helps. Now I thought, You know, when JobKeeper first was announced, I'm like, we're gonna need that to even stay afloat. But then our team worked with suppliers and customers, we ended up literally making, what, 12 years profit in a few months. And we didn't register for JobKeeper.

Tommy: How does the supply work for that? 'Cause I was thinking about that, like the huge increase. Do you just turn on a tap, like because you've got the supply chain around hand sanitizer and all that sort of thing, do you get first dibs from a factory perspective where you're like, okay guys, yeah, just triple our order? How does that work?

Daniel: Um, we would love to have thought it would work like that. And so when sales went up, we, we said to our suppliers, we need more product, and we couldn't get it. Yeah, in fact, supply chain fell apart locally and globally in many parts. There was a— I think in March we were at 50% of our normal sales production So we were in dire straits and obviously everyone's needing sanitizer, we couldn't make it. But I would put credit down to a team that, one of our values we talk about is solutions-focused and we found new suppliers in new countries and new supply channels and we moved mountains and processes that would be 6 months, we pushed them out in a couple of days. We found ways and If it honestly could have been a movie over that month, like, I— stuff that happened and, you know, it was nuts, but we got through it. And, uh, nuts in a good way, like the stress being good.

Josh: Yeah, good nuts. Well, cashews or macadamia.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like a good macadamia. Yeah. Oh, but, but I think— so what I mean by nuts is like we sold more product and made it and distributed it at a time when local and global supply chains were falling apart. But through finding good partners, through very unconventional ways, through taking some risk— we took risk, we took some pretty significant risks. We felt they were measured. Some people would be like, that's big risk, but it was. But then also the biggest profit to impact we've ever made.

Josh: And yeah, I mean, they're probably the people that are asking, uh, what if it doesn't work? Just say people, um, in terms of that, you living and breathing an experience, you're in the trenches of seeing your profits, you know, grow so rapidly. What's— what are the learnings from that? Because from the outs, I don't think I even can fathom that as a, as a business and as a person to— so what unique perspective on the situation has that given you?

Daniel: Yeah, I think, I think with great, um, with great upside there comes an even greater responsibility. Um, I, I think that we sat back going, this is incredible. At the same time, I watched friends' businesses falling off cliffs and other great organisations that were like, man, that's— what do you mean Virgin Australia is going into— like, what? Like, like, we saw these establishments just collapsing and changing. Meanwhile, we are going through the best growth ever. Um, and I mean, it's not just us. The sanitizer thing was like a gold rush. I think we said in the video, it was like— and we saw the best and worst of humanity in that gold rush. Um, you know, special mention to some people we won't mention, but like, it's just like people, when, when money is on the table, people go all in. Um, but then there's some good too, and we saw a lot of that. I think The thank you context is we sat back going, this is incredible. And look, we could have gone, let's just keep the balance sheet strong, we'll give a bit, let's ride out this pandemic. On the other side of it, you know, we'll get bold then. But I think for us, every single day as the dollars went up, uh, and the world's falling apart, we felt this sense of responsibility that We need to go all in. And that's what No Small Plan is. So my perspective, and I think Justine's, we just felt a sense of responsibility that when you have something that works at a time the world needs it, you know, let's not block it. Let's not block it going further.

Tommy: I remember you talking about some of the challenges of social enterprises around Thankyou having to create a phenomenal product to stand out because of sort of the brand perception of something that's, you know, social enterprise. How do you create a social enterprise that retains really amazing people? Obviously, there's the, the side of it which is you're doing good, but what's your perspective on things like salaries within the social enterprise sector, and how can we encourage the best people to come and work at companies like Thankyou?

Daniel: Big topic, important one, because I think that to make, to make social enterprise work, I, I genuinely think we almost have to remove social for a moment, think enterprise, and just go, right, so thank you. You know, there's two rules on our website. Rule one, make great product. Rule two, never break rule one. And we have an asterisk on rule two that says never use a good cause to sell an average product. Now we got these rules from a great book called Do Purpose: Why Brands with Purpose matter, I think. Anyway, Do Purpose is the title. But these rules, like, to make good product you need good people and you need good retention and you need good culture and all of the things. And I think one of the great challenges with social charity in particular, but then anything social, is we think, well, because of the cause, you know, people should do it for less money. Um, in fact, if they need to get paid well, they're in it for the wrong reasons. And some of this stuff sort of, when you filter it through through some people have really screwed it up for everyone by stealing money, by absolute charity rorts, and that sucks. So when you filter it through that, the logic's there. But when you filter it through, how do we live in a world in 2020 where we're all happy to pay someone at Instagram or Facebook, a developer, you know, a very, very, very handsome salary to make the app more addictive so that we're more addicted. How are we comfortable with that? And then we're not comfortable to pay that same amount to someone who might be trying to solve the complexities of extreme poverty or a social issue. So as a society, we're like, we're okay with that, we're not okay with this. And like, we face this every day. I had an interesting exchange with a Netherlands journalist, um, who was having a good rip into us, and I just thought, ah, this is so ironic because he's from a publication that publishes the top 100 rich list and the cars, the boats, the houses, and they are front page. We get sort of the back page. These, are they really in it for the right reasons, blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, classic. But this is how we are as a society, and it has to change.

Tommy: How does it change, do you think? Is there, there ways? And where does Australia fit, do you think, in regards to dealing with this?

Daniel: Look, I think that, uh, Australia is doing well in social enterprise. We have some really strong examples here. I used to think we were 10 years behind the UK. Head of social enterprise in the UK is like, you guys are not 10 years behind, it's amazing. So I think we're doing well. I think that we just need to keep pushing the boundaries and pushing the boundaries of social enterprise, um, and I think we'll continue to do that at Thankyou because we are really interested in really good talent making really good products and campaigns to make a bigger social impact. And yes, we'll never be the highest paid at Thankyou compared to corporate, but we don't want to be too far off it, um, you know. And there are some measures in that, uh, we base off the kind of the 25th percentile, which is the, the lowest. But yeah, I don't know how I feel about that long term, you know. I kind of wonder, is that really the model? It's certainly today, but I think we should keep pushing it, um, because, you know, Good people make good products, and that's what we need.

Tommy: Uh, man, no small plan.

Josh: Timing. That's the timing of all of this. I mean, you mentioned that it was next year that you were thinking about it, and I mean, are you the type to look and go, wow, this is serendipitous, this is all meant to be?

Daniel: Hmm, I am. Like, I am. I think, you know, Jussy and I personally, like, faith has played a big part of our story, and we do think that we're doing this for something bigger than us and more important than us. And the timing of this, uh, it does feel like that. It feels like maybe this is meant to be. I mean, there are some days we wake up and we're like, was this even meant to be? Are we even meant to be doing this? You wrestle.

Josh: When you wrestle, when you're in, um, New Zealand, you know, suffering a bit of pain internally, are you— do you think that too? Are you thinking this was meant to be? This is part of the journey that we have to go through?

Daniel: Yeah, um, our reflection on it is, is that, you know, like that this whole concept of the wilderness and kind of, you know, you look at the greatest storeys ever written, leaders, you know, of, of old. You think of, you know, not that we're trying to compare at all, but, you know, Mandela is locked up in prison. Like, like you look at these sort of histories of people and, um, you know Ah, it's inspiring when you hear the storey because you're like, man, you went on a long down before that up. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was like Mother Teresa. Yeah, yeah, but cool, look at Mother Teresa's like whole life story. It's like pretty, it's epic, but it's— there's a lot of that before there's that. And I think the valley is not often talked about. It's not heroed enough. We all talk about the mountaintop moments and look at them, they did this or won that or achieved that. But most great storeys are here. And so I think for Justin and I, we ended up going oh, we're here. And that helped us because we're like, we're not— we're definitely not there, but we're here. Let's just— let's go on that journey and be okay with that.

Tommy: You hear about, um, founders or CEOs and how it can be lonely in those roles. Have you felt lonely through the process?

Daniel: Ah, yeah, like, yes. Um, I definitely am grateful for co-founder, um, and not just founder. I think a founder is credit to them. That may be an even lonelier journey than the one I walked. Having co-founders, Justine, Jared. Jared finished up about 2 years ago and walked with him for 10 years in this. That was really helpful because you're encouraging each other. The amount of times I've quit or Justine's quit, but then we, it wasn't on the same days. We kind of got each other back. It wasn't on paper. Just made them out.

Josh: Does email count?

Daniel: There's been a couple of email exchanges. But, you know, no one needs to know about that. But I think—

Josh: I mean, a bit weird emailing your wife that you're quitting, to be honest.

Daniel: Well, you know, you gotta put it somewhere, mate. There's gotta be a paper trail for the lawyers. So I think we— yeah, I would just say we don't do it alone. That would be my message to everyone because I think it is lonely, but we have to reach out and you have to get help and get support. Because point leading anything, it is, it is the loneliest job in the world, they say.

Tommy: Yeah, it's, uh, it's so exciting what you're doing. And can I also say you've got some of the best hair in the business as well. I've been following your hair journey, and, uh, I think the, uh, the curls are great. Uh, yeah, I think that you're really repping it. The massive product you're using.

Daniel: Yeah, what sort of— I can't give away the secrets, but I can tell you one thing. To any kid out there who thinks at the age of 17 or 16, I'll start straightening my hair and no one needs to know about my curls. Like, if you— if that's you, stop. Don't try and hide it, because at 29, when it all came out, my son had curly hair.

Tommy: This is chapter 2. You're giving us what chapter 2 is going to be.

Daniel: Yeah, so, so just be you, you know, be you.

Tommy: Awesome. Well, yeah, good luck. And so for For people that want to support No Small Plan, obviously you're in the sort of final stages in some regards in having the meetings, but is there other ways that people can help out?

Daniel: Yeah, look, I'd say over the next couple of weeks, if people haven't seen the video, watch it, share it. The more awareness, the better. Because when the product has a partner, I mean, we're gonna need to roll it out. And so that's where, you know, thank you works off people and people telling people. So I'd say right now that's a big call to action. 4 weeks out, 3 weeks out from announcing who's in. We have booked one of the largest digital billboards in the world. It's found in Times Square, New York City. It's not small. I think it's the size of an American football field. And the founder loves our storey and he's like, I mean, so we've got a discounted rate, but we're sitting there going, hope it's not empty. You know what I mean? Like, that's awkward. So look, Follow the journey, get the popcorn out. And either way, it's gonna be a case study. I think the good thing about Thankyou, someone's like, but what if this fails? I'm like, how we work at Thankyou is it can't fail. And that's as in, even if everything didn't go to our plan, we're gonna learn from it, pivot, and then it'll work and we'll find a way to make it work. And so, you know, come on the journey with us.

Josh: It's so exciting, man.

Daniel: Congratulations.

Tommy: It's really awesome.

Daniel: I'm just— thank you for the interview. I'm just glad we've got black shirts matching. Yeah, yeah, such a good call.

Tommy: It's a daily talk show. Uh, make sure you cheque out No Small Plan at Thankyou's website. Uh, otherwise, we'll see tomorrow, everyone. Have a good one.

Josh: See you guys.