How To Make A Podcast

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 848.

Tommy: Happy Thursday, Gronks. What's happening? What's going on? How are we?

Josh: Uh, before we get started, wanted to say thank you to BK for his Insta story. He took a photo of the squeegee keyring. Good throwback. Uh, if you send an Insta storey after the daily talk show, we reshare it and things like that, don't we?

Tommy: That's very nice. I mean, while we're sort of thanking people, I was just thinking this morning, I was listening to Hump Day Replay, One Trick Tony. I was just thinking, very thankful for young Mr. 97.

Josh: Yeah, well done, Sebs.

Tommy: Just, he's the kid's on, he's on 3 steroids, different. Yeah, yeah, 3 different types of steroids. No, he's on 3 different podcasts a week. He's really been thrown into the deep end. And just a bit of an Appreciation Thursday.

Josh: I like that.

Tommy: You know, for Sev's.

Josh: Better than Blame Monday.

Tommy: Yeah, look, he may be blamed on the Monday. He may be blamed next week. I don't know yet, but don't—

Josh: What else are you thankful for? Anything else, Andy, on the YouTube chat is asking?

Tommy: Very thankful for, oh, you know what? This morning, tell me, let me see if you can guess what's been different about my morning. Wake up, cheque the news in bed, went back to sleep for 10, 20 minutes, got back up, got back up, decided to go downstairs. I was like, mate, I'm gonna go get a coffee. Went, got a coffee, the coffee shop wasn't open. Went for a walk, I was like listening to Hump Day Replay, just walking along, forgot my headphones, but luckily my phone has loudspeaker, so I was just pumping Hump Day Replay as I'm walking.

Josh: Okay, where is Bodhi?

Tommy: Good one, I knew you'd pick it up. He said, um, he's at my mum and dad's place, had a sleepover.

Josh: Oh, great.

Tommy: So, so it's a little cheeky midweeker. And I mean, that's not even what I'm thankful about. I'm thankful for it, but it's about the things that you realise when you're not with your child.

Josh: Would you ever consider sort of an Everybody Loves Raymond sit show? Wasn't the parents across the road?

Tommy: Oh, were they?

Josh: Maybe.

Tommy: No.

Josh: Or they weren't. Who was across the road in Everybody Loves Raymond?

Tommy: Well, Raymond was an adult. He wasn't a child, but he's like, yeah, I thought they had kids in the house, but maybe, I mean, I probably should use a reference of a sitcom that I watched. No, but I was sitting. So then my morning continued. I went to the park. I almost didn't, like my mind's like, no, don't do it, don't do it. But then I was like, I did it and I went and I did some stretching in the sun and then a meditation. With the sun beaming on my face. It was lovely, but I just had this moment, right? Full circle to what I'm thankful about. And thanks for asking. We're moving into a new place next week and we're just so happy about it.

Josh: You got the all clear?

Tommy: Well, it's, yeah, seems to be. It seems to be. The handover's done. I don't ask questions when the, well, the real estate agent's like, yep, you can move in on this day, and I'm like, fuck yeah. So we're just going with it. We've got the, uh, removalist booked, but it's not about that. It's about how it's just happened. It's stars have aligned. You could easily see it as like, you know, any place you move into, you can have that feeling. But I've really made a decision in life where it's, if I'm moving, I want it to be a better place than the last. And, and that's just like a sign of I'm, you know, putting, uh, you know, the thought first of, you know, I want to live somewhere really comfortable. And so it's— I'm lucky that we can. I'm very thankful that this next place is better, and I just fucking love it. I'm just so pumped, so pumped. And I was very grateful as the sun was beaming on my face, just feeling happy about it.

Josh: Now, not to, um, not to quash this— quash, is that what you say? Squash or quash?

Tommy: Whatever you want, mate.

Josh: What's the difference between a squash and a quash?

Tommy: Um, just what you think about it, to be honest. Well, what's the difference between any word? Just what you even believe the word means.

Josh: No, I love it. Really, what it is, there's definitely something beautiful in something representing either a new chapter or what it's going to do in regards to mood and relaxation and the ability to sort of live your best life. Uh, Matt D'Avella talks about, you know, when I get— it's the, when I get the 50mm lens, I will then be happy, or when I get this, I'll then be happy. Yeah. What is your take on calling you bullshit on like, oh, like, did you say this about the other place, or does this feel like a different experience?

Tommy: Definitely felt this, felt like that about this place that I'm in currently, and it's definitely— so the, the similarity to what Matt DiVella is talking to is me thinking about the exercise area that I've got at the new place and how it's going to change my life. That's more than— I'm just really content with the fact that we landed a place, we saw it. Like, I didn't really have, you know, I wasn't hung up on if we got it or not.

Josh: And you only saw one place, right?

Tommy: Yeah, mate, we just literally, it was the only application we put in. And so when that, it's hard, like maybe I'm older and I've, you know, but I've got a kid, you know, there's a family moving in, it's a bit different than just a snotty-nosed 21-year-old that I was. That I, you know, wormed my way into a property through a, you know, family friend. You know, the privilege of going to a private school and having family friends in the real estate game. They just gave me the property, but no, I just, yeah, it's definitely the exercise area where I've even caught myself like, mate, I'll start then, I'll start when I move into that place. But I've caught myself and I'm starting to do some stuff at home, like I'm starting to introduce workouts.

Josh: I think you said like, I've caught myself like, nah, Tommy, you're the same piece of shit wherever you move.

Tommy: But no, no, no.

Josh: That's good.

Tommy: Yeah, so, I do see the trap of thinking things will be different when I have, you know, cue cards or when I get my new bike. My new bike.

Josh: Or your fire pit. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: No, well, life has changed a bit.

Josh: The spa. The spa, man. Do you have a spa in the new place?

Tommy: Absolutely not. And I'm very thankful. I'm replacing the spa with chickens. Another problem. It is the same. It's something. Yeah. I mean, that's— it seems like—

Josh: Remember how big you were at the spa? It was like—

Tommy: Huge.

Josh: This is the thing.

Tommy: So, I've worked at— You know, you learn as you grow older, Josh. You know, I was younger. It was a year ago.

Josh: Younger and dumber.

Tommy: And what I've realised is that to have a spa, you need to be rich because then you get other people to fucking look after the thing for you.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: It's, you don't wanna have to do that.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And so it's—

Tommy: Literally the spa boy comes every week.

Josh: Yeah. You don't wanna be the spa boy.

Tommy: I wanna spa boy.

Josh: Yeah, no, I get it.

Tommy: I don't wanna be spa boy. I didn't mind it, but here's the thing, even around the rich thing, we started complaining about how much we had to spend on chemicals.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: That's not a problem you want. It's like buying a Ferrari and thinking, fuck, I don't like buying premium 98. Yeah, yeah. It's too expensive.

Josh: Waiting until Tuesday to go fill up 'cause it's cheaper at the local Shell, you know? It's so cheap. You don't wanna be worrying about that, do you?

Tommy: Not at all.

Josh: So are you going to have these issues with the chicken? Like you sort of alluded to, the chickens are going to cost money. Like, I've got to be careful with my eggs. I can't just be fucking handing them out.

Tommy: You know what? Amy's very keen on it. She's thinking a lot about it. I'm into it. So at least we're spreading the load. Bodhi, it's a beautiful thing for him to grow up. You know, you're thinking like even the nice photos we got in the spa, maybe he remembers having a spa as he grows up. So you do things for the kids as well. It's not always for yourself, but there's a lot of nostalgia in chickens for me. But you know, here's the thing, JJ, fucking mum and dad were over last week and they were talking to us about the chickens and they said, you know, we got rid of the chickens. I was like, what do you mean? Like, I can't remember when they left. I just remember having chicken coop in the backyard and I used to throw them in the air and eat their eggs.

Josh: Well, this is a thing with you specifically, is that you definitely you always have rose-colored glasses looking back on things. Like when we did New York, like you were sick during New York. Like when we went to New York for Seth Godin, you're like, mate, can't, just gotta fucking get back to New York. I'm like, mate, you were sick.

Tommy: I know, but so this is the thing. Mum said those chickens were, we were prisoner in our own house. She said they were shitting on the deck, and I was spraying it off, and then I started having memories of me stepping in chicken shit, like squishy, and on the back deck with no shoes on. I'm like, oh, I didn't clean any of that. And so you start remembering this stuff, and— but it's not— so I, I think the memories for me are strong enough of Bodhi in the spa that override the negative ones of fuck it, I can't be bothered cleaning it.

Josh: It's a good way of doing things, isn't it? Because like, you can't really regret anything because everything you look back on is like, oh, that was fucking great.

Tommy: And I guess there's stuff that hasn't gone well. It's like the ultimate optimist has negative— there's some negativity in that. There's like, there is some qualities of that that might not be productive. Like you're not willing to work on yourself because you're just seeing silver lining.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Mate, you know, I lost that friend for a reason. Like that's, you know, but I was a cunt to them. It's like, it was all me.

Josh: But, you know, does she say, hey, like— because the thing is, it's only a problem if then, you know, it's like, um, you know, history. You look at history, otherwise it will just repeat itself, or whatever that fucking saying is. Do you think that there are times where you look fondly on something and you have to be reminded by Amy, if I— hang on, you actually didn't like that? Like, I know you want to go to Gumbaya Park again, but last time you chucked a tantrum.

Tommy: Nah, I don't think I've got nothing too serious, nothing too serious. But you forget stuff. Like last night, somehow we just started chatting about Skype. I was like, who, who uses Skype? How much is that worth? I can't even remember last time you Skype. A few answers, Skype sold for like $7 billion to Microsoft. The original owners sold it for $2 billion, but they've still got 40 million monthly— sorry, daily users. You jump over to Zoom, 300 million daily users. Amy said, we used to use Skype when we were in, you know, early days of our relationship. I was like, no. And then she sung the tune, doo doo doo, and I was like, the memory came back. I was like, oh my God, we did. I remember that. It's, uh, yeah, so you, you— it's, it's a funny— isn't the mind funny, the way you look back on stuff? It's bizarre. Bizarre. Yeah, yeah. There has to be something, a trait in what you do that is the thread, so you love that enough. And so, yeah, this, this pleasure in pain.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, and so Yeah, I mean, you're the well-traveled guy. Well-traveled doesn't come without headaches and blowups and just like—

Josh: and but also the other thing is it's fucked up, but I feel like for so many times I'm travelling or whatever, I'm like, there's so many times where it's like, this will be a great story. The storey is better than the thing that's happening. So, when Naysan and I are in KL and there's a 24-hour delay, or then we're on the— on a flight that needs to have an emergency landing. Like all of those things, like you think, I could die, but then always in the back of my mind, I'm like, this is a good story.

Tommy: Oh yeah, bungee jumping for me, very— I don't think I'd annoy— like annoying. No, no, I would never do it again. I don't think so. Um, but look at like the people, like, uh, so like goal setting, you land a goal and then you land a bigger one. You think it will be better when you're looking towards that bigger goal. Look at Joe Rogan. Lands, you know, $100 million plus deal, moves into his new studio in Texas and gets trolled for how shit it looks and sounds. And at that point, we were speaking about it last night on the phone, we're like, the money doesn't solve all the problems.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And I love your— you said growth is never linear.

Josh: Well, you're going for— when you go forward, you also go back. It's like when we go to the— like when we went from our remote setup to the office, there are a bunch of things like our mate Hayden Dibb came in, goes, this two-shot, I don't like this two-shot. And the thing is, it's like we know that. It's like, you know, this is, this is what happens is it's like you can't just always— as much as you just want to be growing, growing, growing, growing, growing, or like, um, improving, improving, improving. Using the Joe Rogan example, he had that studio for a bunch of time where he got comfy. They worked out exactly where the cameras were. They got the new ones. They got, uh, you know, set up to a point where— and you can't, you can't hack that. The only way to get to that is time in the seat. And the thing is, then when you change the seat, when you change all of the different things, when you're having to worry about different tech, you have to relearn it all again. And that's, that's like with us with Going from audio only to video to then going remote to streaming to having guests, like all of these things become doing 2 days, uh, 2 episodes a day. All of these things challenge you and it's like starting again. But I think that that is, yeah, that's like the growth bit. Yeah.

Tommy: And then it's, yeah, just like I, I see it. So Theo Von There's a couple of big podcasters that have moved out of LA. They're big comedians, you know, got profiles and shit, and they, and they're all seeing the fucking writing on the wall and escaping. So Theo Vaughn's gone to Nashville, and you watch his podcast and it's hilarious. He's got, he's got cardboard on the windows behind him taped, and then you see he's got little, uh, sound things like, um, sound acoustic panels taped to the wall, and then he's got some kid that he doesn't know. It's, it is hilarious. Like, he's using it as gear. And it's like, as gear, but like, you just see even him, he had a studio, he had this fucking amazing murals on the wall. And the winners push through, the winners continue and, and take a hit to their ego, or, you know, like, put themselves in the firing line for criticism. You see the comments, no, no, no, sound quality this, like, fuck off your 36-subscriber YouTube channel loser.

Josh: Yeah, we're a 12,000 sub loser.

Tommy: But no, I appreciate, because the pain doesn't change. I think the pain we feel is probably a pain that Joe Rogan's feeling right now. Not comparing ourselves, but pain is comparable. The financial situation and audience is not comparable, but so what changes? Experience can feel the same for people of all different levels.

Josh: I think that part of like even the coaching and support that we've been doing with our network, so other podcasters like, uh, One Trick Tony and Too Much Tully go, uh, One Trick Tony's new episode landed today. Too Much Tully, her episodes come out every Tuesday. Uh, great episode next week as well, uh, that you just recorded with her. Uh, the the coaching that we have to do around, um, uh, people getting into podcasting is realising that you'll have this spike of interest, you know, on social media. Everyone, everyone loves a launch. Like, launches are sexy. Launches— that, like, it's like— that's why I love saying put it in the calendar, because putting it in the count— like, put in the calendar, you get fucking fired up. And then when it's, when it's the date that you said, it's like you get fired up. And so What happens though with 99.9% of podcasters is you'll launch, you'll get a big, you know, um, bit of noise on social media, and then it sort of dies down. The reality— you'll see the, the downloads will be going up, or they might be sort of staying the same, and there's people listening, but it's, it's not, it's not this thing where every single week you're going to be getting the same amount of noise that you get in week 1. And so, that's always a massive learning for people is it's like you need to be willing to do this for a long time whilst not that many people are responding or reacting.

Tommy: Definitely. And then there's the— that's so the external noise and internal noise. You can have the cheerleaders internally saying, mate, fucker, what? You're a champion. You've done this. You said you couldn't do it. Now you've done it. But then And then you're like, you, you love your show, you love what you're doing, that guest was great. But then it gets to a point where you can even— like my brother speaking to me last night, and he's got a podcast, and we, we've chatted to him on this show before he started, probably 300 episodes ago, about how he should— how— what he's facing, what challenges, you know, in the creative process. And into doing like 10 episodes, he's feeling the feelings of 'What am I doing? Like, what is— what's the meaning of it? Like, what—

Josh: why—

Tommy: what kind of guests should I have?' And I was, you know, he, he comes full circle and he realises that it's about keep going. When I say to him, 'Mate, just keep going. Look at all the things you've learned since even speaking to all these different types of people.' And so that's the, the trap, is that the noise can be too great in those times that you don't even listen to the advice of yourself, which you know the truth is if I just keep going, I'll learn more. Like, if you just sort of do a brain dump, um, you would realise the things you've learned. And, and it is just about the keep on going. And so I feel like there is, um, not, not everyone wants to hear that though. Like, I, I find moments where we're beating the drum of longevity, you know, see this as a future play, and, and good things come to those who stick at— like, all truths. But some people might not want to hear that, and so they're not— we're not for them.

Josh: But it's also, I think, that part of it too is that, uh, that is a value system or something that's bigger than just this small idea. This is like avoiding, like, listening to external forces or noises and for a lot of people, because podcasting is shiny and sexy and all of those things now, it's, um, it's, it's going to encourage a certain type of person who actually doesn't fit the mould of longevity. So if you're wanting quick wins and going viral and being famous and— sorry, Tony, um, any of that— I do believe you're going to be famous though, Tony.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, any of those types of things, it is going to be a hard journey. If you see it as a development tool and say, okay, this is the new— you know, in radio they called it, SEA called it the talent pipeline. And it's, uh, you know, you go to a regional town and you, and you're there for a few years, and then you go to another place. Another— like, this is— you can create the show that you could be doing in 10 years, but it just requires first that you put in 7, 8, 9 years of just showing up every day, learning a little bit more, building upon your ideas versus this sort of quick thing. Because what's going to happen when you get the quick thing? If you get— if, if all of a sudden it does do well, all of a sudden you do have people, you know, sharing shit on Instagram or like What does that actually mean?

Tommy: Yeah, it doesn't mean much when you get into it. But also you will forget wherever you were at, you'll forget the early days because you're so focused on how you're feeling now. So you progress and then you feel a bit yucky in the moment, even though you have progressed, but you've forgotten the times. Like, I remember working, like, getting up at 4 AM to go into, uh, Channel 31 where I would do this segment, uh, sitting on a couch, you know, talking on camera. And oh my God, like thinking back to then now, like I remember feeling that pain of like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing, like all of that. But it doesn't change a great deal moving forward, it just shifts where the focus is. So I'm not thinking about 'Oh, I can't talk to a microphone.' Now, like, it's just a different thing. 'Oh, it can't be big as big as this,' or like, 'Oh, we're not like—' The problem just shifts. Yeah, but it's dealing how we process it. And so it kind of has a link to that looking back on memories with fondness. I look back on that with fondness versus the pain, you know, because it's like it— I don't know, maybe some people hold the pain like that. It is tough, don't do it. But it's like, yeah, I don't think it helps people's journey of, you know, confronting that pain.

Josh: I was talking to Mr. 97 because I found some audio, uh, from when one of the first times he was on the podcast. And it's just, he was sort of, he's just talking in his chest the whole time. Yeah, it's just like a little bit like this. And I said to him like, what is that? And it's like he was talking about, uh, the, the uncomfortability in himself, not just like, not just on a show perspective, but when you're 19 years old, you're like still trying to work things out. Like, there's just a— and the thing is, you don't necessarily realise it, you don't know it at the time because you live in it, but it's not until you then see the progress. Like, the thing is, it doesn't feel like— I don't feel like I'm necessarily improving day to day when it comes to this podcast. Like, I feel The storey that I've told is that I'm talking the exact same way that I spoke in episode 1, 2, 3. Like, that's really how I feel. I don't feel like that. Like, you listen and, you know, there's a difference there, but the actual, like, the psychology of it or the, um, remains the same. Like, I think that we're not necessarily— like, I don't feel like I'm necessarily in tune with am I comfortable, am I uncomfortable. I'm just sort of doing it and having a crack. Does that make sense?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's like, you, you lift a certain weight, like getting to 100 kilogramme bench press was a mental thing as well. I was probably strong enough to do it, but then now that I've done it, I'm like, mate, fucking, I'll do that. And so Then it's about— it's not easy, it's still hard, but you don't have that mental thought of, can we do this? And so the equivalent for, I don't know, doing a podcast, you're 50 episodes in, you're like, I can do this. Probably more so now that I feel like I don't even think about, can I do this ever? I'm just like, great, this time I'm going to talk about this. Or, you know, takes me much less time to work out what I'm going to talk about today. And so, but that's, that's just repetition. And so repetition in anything in life means that you lose some cognitive load and you can focus it elsewhere.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I, I, uh, last week when I was on Insta, I asked, um, what, uh, who, who wants to— who's thought about, uh, starting a podcast? Just send me back a fire emoji, just because I wanted to see who and what and just get a sense of where the space is at. There were 30 people that, that sent me back the fire emoji that want— have been thinking about starting a podcast.

Tommy: And like, what kind of, um, individuals surprised you? Don't you— don't say that.

Josh: Yeah, I just think like, um, it's, it's, it's not necessarily— it wasn't skewed to like ex-broadcast people or anything like that. It's Yeah, it's just people with normal jobs, normal, like not necessarily experience in entertainment that want to do it. And I think that like there is an exciting—

Tommy: it's not fucking peacock Tommy Jack and putting his hand up.

Josh: There were definitely some peacocks, but the, um, but yeah, I just, I just thought that that was interesting. And then I was thinking, how many people will do it? How many people will transition? Because it's— if you look back at sort of old-school media, you had to audition, you had to be picked, you had to be all of these things. Whereas now you go to a, you know, podcast host, you know, like a place where you start your podcast, put in your credit card details, and you're— and you've got a podcast. And so it's very confronting, I think, for a lot of people because, uh, yes, you can do it. And so if you're not doing it the thing that's holding you back right now is you. And I think that for a lot of people, that's really confronting. I'll just make one caveat there.

Tommy: It's either you or it's Osher Ginsberg. Yeah, exactly.

Josh: Because he told you not to do it. Yeah, he did. He did. Never forget. But it's also, it's even a— it's not necessarily you, it's the storeys that you've told or someone in your life has told you where it's— but it's not true. And so I think that that's the other thing.

Tommy: You are capable. You are capable is the point, which doesn't mean that you won't have any of the experiences that people who feel like a fraud or an imposter get when they do something, because you most likely will.

Josh: I mean, that's the whole point is it's like, yes, you can do it. Will you be great day one? Probably not. But that's like, that's the only option you have. And I don't know many people who were great day one. And so that's like the, the other thing. So it's a— there's a willingness to fail and be shit. And I think that potentially it's harder for people who have existing audiences. So if you're an influencer, someone like Tully It was like day one, she's got a, uh, a big audience, and it's like it would be hard, uh, going into a situation where it's like she's having to do her training, she has to develop and learn in those early days in front of a bunch of people.

Tommy: Oh yeah, and you could see it as, you know, being harder or being more scary based on you know there's going to be feedback and you know you're in the raw moments of doing it. It's, um, yeah, yes, but then, so what, so you could relate this to like, why do you do anything? Why do you end up doing something? For you, why do you think you ended up doing this, like actually sticking at it? I know I'm a part of the equation, but I think it's just realizing—

Josh: it's like having a, um, you realise you've got a view on your future version of yourself, and then you realise that the only way that you can get to the future version that you want for yourself is to do something now. And so, uh, for me it was, you know, like, especially with, you know, being in employee somewhere, or just like, for a long time, I feel like from, you know, the— my early 20s to sort of my mid-20s until I started my production company in a more serious way, there was a sense of building. I, I never felt that I could be the full leader that I wanted to be. I was always like defined by the role that I was in. And so I realised that if I wanted to, it wasn't going to be a ladder for me. I wasn't going to climb up some sort of ladder, and I was never going to fit. If I got to the top of the ladder in regards to, um, sort of entertainment or whatever it is in that sort of traditional media, I still would have felt out of place. And so for me, it was realising of like, oh, I don't like what is currently out there. I know what I want to do, I know what I think other people should do. And so then it becomes this choice of like, okay, I've just got to do it, build it, put in the work without the sexiness of— I don't think that we're like, we're not trying to build the next Facebook or the next— and so that's, I think that the, the problem at the moment is that we look at the billionaires, we look at Amazon, we look at Jeff Bezos, we look at all these things And it's completely fucked with people's perspective of what success is and should be. And so I think that what we've been good at is the narrow, like a narrow focus in just, you know, not, not being attached to previous stories. So that guy who's like, you've got 12K subs and you've got, you know, a $40,000 studio that doesn't connect, that doesn't connect for him. Right. But like, yeah, the beauty of it, or what I loved, is it's like, yeah, like it's not meant to make sense. Like if it makes sense, we're probably following an old narrative that's not relevant right now.

Tommy: Do you think it has to make sense to you who's doing it?

Josh: Yeah, I think so. Like, I think that someone along the— I mean, it depends. Is it a, yeah, old storeys versus new stories, but then also the fact that things are going to change as well as you go. So, for instance, the storey that we told at the start is very different to the storey where we're telling now, don't you think?

Tommy: Oh, 100%. Like, what we're necessarily— There's a different belief in even what you're looking to in the future. There's things you realise from doing the thing. So you get a year in, then you, you have— you see things differently. And so we didn't see it like this at that beginning point.

Josh: And also, I think it's testing and learning. Like, we— I think what we have done better at is as we go saying, oh, this is something, you know, like we've said previously. Like, we've had conversations 2 years ago where we're like uh, let's, let's do the daily talk show, let's focus on that, let's not have any other podcasts. And then we evolve and we realise the opportunity, not just from a market perspective, but we can— I think that we underestimated the value that we can bring to people as well. And so what has been great is it does feel like at the start there was just a serving of Gronks, the community you listening right now, and now it's expanded beyond that where it's like we can do that and then we can help other creators do that, find their audience. And there's no— I don't feel any ego around needing to be the biggest, if that makes sense too. Like, if we can help a creator find a bigger audience than what we have, that's a, that's a massive win. Definitely. You're like, absolutely not.

Tommy: Absolutely not. No, no, I 100% agree. I feel the same. I feel the same because it's, um, you end up— it like, that's aligning with your values or where— what you're wanting to do. So it could be value, could be community. And working with great people. And so as a result of that being a focus, we, we can help someone else build a big community and audience. And so it's still, yeah, it's like, mate, it's having kids. Have kids, you're pretty proud of what they do.

Josh: Yeah, I think the other thing too, like we were talking the other, other day, um, with a creator around, um, the start, the difference between the start of your podcast journey and then as you go on. And so when you start doing a podcast, the podcast is attached to you, you are the podcast. And then it's almost like a bubble, like imagine like a bubble that is attached to you through soap or whatever. So you've created this bubble and it's attached to you, but then you start putting in the work and you put in sort of Uh, you know, whether it's segments or ideas or guests, and it starts— the bubble starts to get heavier and heavier, and before you know it, the, the bubble ends up detaching from you and it becomes this entity that sits outside of you. You built it, you helped create it, but what it means is— and that bubble can become bigger than you as well— but the beauty of that bubble is that there is a detachment between you and the bubble now. And so when you get feedback and thoughts and all that sort of thing, I think anyway, from our perspective, we can look at it and say, uh, no, uh, yep, completely understand where that person's coming from, completely. And it doesn't, it doesn't feel personal because there's enough that's gone into it that it's become something that's not just us, it's not attached to us. So any critical feedback doesn't feel personal.

Tommy: Um, yeah, it's important because then you have an objective or removed, less emotive response to, to it.

Josh: Yeah. Uh, Richard in the YouTube chat said, how long was it before you guys felt like you started to get your groove? What do you think your answer is?

Tommy: I reckon, um, Oh, like, you literally could say this year, really. I feel this year, to be honest. And like, even at 500, think about the feeling of doing that live show and the nerves. And like, I feel like that's weird. I feel like I would— maybe I feel like I wouldn't feel like that because I hadn't experienced it yet. So there was a new experience of something we hadn't done, weren't sure if would work.

Josh: And doing this this year, I mean, we were like, the ESPY will fucking like hanging at the green room like, I can't be like, fuck, you gotta go out there. Like, where it's like, yeah, I think like right now it's— there is a comfortability to all of these things where it's— yeah, I definitely think coming off those two, like, so doing two live shows, I think that the distinction between the live shows, episode 500, that was our crew, that was, you know, 75 Gronks who all came to listen to the Daily Talk Show, sort of an intimate sort of scenario. And then you had the ESPY, which was a fundraiser, um, around the fires, and that had other people, that had other communities, other podcasters' communities at the, at the venue watching, listening. And so there was a pressure there, whereas I feel like now we've done those two extremes that you can, you can see that it's like I would feel comfortable on stage doing our thing and not having the same level, like definitely still butterflies and all that sort of thing, but not the anxiety of, ah, fuck, this could, this could go real bad.

Tommy: Um, 800 episodes is, is a good sort of finding your groove after 800 episodes. No, but to be honest, it's like because it's not— what is finding your groove? It's like a lot of things like aligning together so that you're in the groove, right? So you've— and so that can be everything from the team around you, the space, your ability in doing, you know, um, different tasks and how long it takes you. Like, there's so many things that need to find alignment. You can feel confident that you're going to talk to a guest and be able to ask questions. But then like further beyond that, there's something in helping other people do something that helps you upskill yourself. Learning by learning, learning by teaching. Yeah, definitely. And so teachers out there, yeah, sure, they're not the most knowledgeable, like they're not, you know, they don't know everything, but they also have a unique perspective about the thing that they're doing based on doing it plus also teaching it. So when I was PTing, I felt like I knew more about— I trained a lot, so I felt like I knew. But then when I started teaching, I was like, ah, that's fucking what's going on. Like, I'm seeing what I'm missing when I'm doing it. And so, so there's a bit of that too, which is happening. Analytical.

Josh: It's the analytical element, isn't it? It's trying to— okay, how do I, how do I take this complex idea that I've— that maybe I've sat with And so there's a mindfulness element, and then there's also the element of seeing, uh, podcasters going through the same things. And the other thing too is the meetings, the conversations that we're having. We're having a bunch of conversations with individual creators, and what we're always surprised by is how even very different creators are all having the same issues. They're all having the same tension, the same friction. And it's sort of weird at the start. At the start, it's like, are we projecting this onto them? And then you just be quiet. Then you just say like, what's your biggest challenge? And you just, you don't sort of elaborate or say anything else. And you realise it's like, oh, fuck. Like it's, there's only 3 or 4 things that are stopping every single person. And it's, you know, do I have anything to say? Why would people listen to me? What if it doesn't work? All of these things are universal and it doesn't really change. It doesn't matter whether you're one of the biggest shows in the world— Oh, you're right there, little burp. Yeah, yeah, sorry. That's fine. Or I just wanted people to know it wasn't me mid-sentence. Or, you know, someone starting out for the very first time.

Tommy: Mm, yeah, it's a journey. But then it's, um, yeah, the ultimate question is how do you end up being up for going on the journey? Like, is it— it's not as clear as getting in a car door and closing it and putting your foot down to drive. It's, um, it is unique to every person. There's a different answer for everybody. As to why you end up doing it.

Josh: And I think too, like, yeah, everyone's path is different. So for us, we do have our production company, we have our video production, which is— I feel very grateful that we've had that, because if we were just trying to make a podcast work at the start, it would have imploded. Because it's just like, how do you make— it's unicorns that can get that working. And I think also that quick growth and the success, there's a bunch of learning that you'd never have to do. It's a different type of learning, but it's a bunch of learning you don't have to do. Whereas with what, with what we've created over time, is it, it has been this evolution of it started off, you know, so we started off with our video production offering because that was very easy for us. And 2 years ago, when a client would come to us and say, hey, can we do— can you do a podcast for us? We'd say no because we were still like, we've got 10 years experience in video production, but podcasting we've had 2 and a half. Like, we— in the grand scheme of things, at the time, our podcast stuff, we had a lot to learn. And it's only, uh, you know, June, July that we've actually been like, hang on, we've now uncovered all of these processes and systems and ways of working that we can actually benefit people who want to start these things. And so it's just like, it's amazing to see how I can see the difficulty for people who starting a business day one and being clear and saying, this is what I'm going to do, and then doing that without thinking about the reality that 2 years is a very long time in regards to growth and personal growth, and your business could be in a completely different area in, you know, from, from where it began. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And so if you are getting started, how far along do you think you think— do you think you visualise or scheme on?

Josh: Um, I think that like it's definitely one— it's the one foot in front of the other mentality, I believe. I think it's the speaking to Georgie boy with Hump Day Replay. It's like, wow, I can't believe I'm at, you know, X amount of reps or this or that. And so you— but you have to, you have to do that. If you look too far ahead, you will get frustrated and you will get annoyed because you, you will see the gap you'll see the huge, the huge leap that still needs to, to happen. Whereas if you just look, uh, step by step by step, episode by episode, making a promise to the audience and making it happen every single week or whatever that schedule is, it— the, you know, you'll get to a year or 2 years and you'll look back and you won't know how it's happened.. And to me, that is a much more palatable, much more sort of, it's easier. It's, but also I think it's got a higher success rate than trying to go for some big fucking launch. You know, this big, like there's, you can get to a certain point, but then everything you do after that to try and make it better is going to have a very small impact. So once you get to like 80%, like there's only so much— like getting a better design of your— if you're, if you're like stressing about your podcast artwork, we've changed our podcast artwork 3 times over the course of our journey, and it's not like we've spent the least amount of time on it. Like, it— and the thing is, if you're obsessing over, I can't launch until I fucking hire an age design agency who's going to you know, do it. Like, it's, it's all, it's all the distraction from getting it out, doing it, iterating, changing. Um, so I think, yeah, it's, it's the, um, it's re-looking at the launch. I think that there's so much, and you can see, you can see online how that becomes the thing that's sold into— it's like marketing, right? Like, it's, um, how to how to launch, like how to do the perfect launch, right? And people will bullshit and they'll scheme and they'll say it's got to be at this certain time and 3 weeks before you need to do this and then you need to fucking do it. It's all made up. Like the thing that is, uh, that we can promise you is required to have a successful podcast is show up on day one and release a podcast, and then do it the next time you promised it. And you keep doing that and doing that until you look back and say, wow, I've climbed this massive mountain. But there's no, there's no, there's no way of helicoptering, you know, getting in a helicopter, helicoptering into the mountain and gaining the sort of growth you would going through the actual steps required.

Tommy: Yeah, you still feel fit as— unfit as fuck. Exactly. Yeah, he's like, mate, that was a good climb. Yeah, good climb in the copter. Uh, love it.

Josh: Yeah, but if you want to send us an email, um, we're sort of— we're, we're working on some, um— we've obviously— we're building out other podcasts for the network, but we're also helping businesses as well. So hi@makingpodcasts.com. It's the early days of the website, but we're sort of building a resource where people can learn to podcast. But then also we're working with some great brands now to sort of take some of this stuff that we're doing and helping them do the same. So if you have any questions or whatever, happy to like elaborate on that stuff as well.

Tommy: I'm going to put it up, that, um, send me a fire emoji too, see how many I get shot back to me on Instagram. Alrighty.

Josh: Enjoy the rest of your day. If you are enjoying the show, please share it on Instagram. Uh, that's much appreciated. Also, go cheque out, uh, One Trick Tony. Her episode landed today. It's a great one. And also, uh, Too Much Telly as well. Hump Day Replay, of course, that was, uh, yesterday with Reece Mitchell. Uh, that's it. That's, that's, that's all we got. Enjoy the rest. Love you guys. Bye. See ya.