Choice, Willpower & Feedback

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 821.

Tommy: Happy Fat Friday, Gronks. What's happening? What's going on?

Josh: So, uh, the premise was I was ordering you what I wanted to eat for Fat Fridays, and you were ordering me what you wanted to eat for Fat Fridays. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So it is Fat Friday, so you gotta— we had to sort of indulge. Your food is here, Josh. Do you want to go get it?

Josh: Yeah, okay. I'm gonna go.

Tommy: Okay, I'll sit. Okay, so today's Fat Friday, guys. I had the idea that Josh could look through the Uber Eats app and find something that he really wants for himself. So it's his, it's what he wants. And then he has to send that to me. And then I do the same. I have to look through the app and find what I really want to eat and then send that to Josh. So he's already got his food. Mine's not here yet. I'm pissed.

Josh: Okay, I'm very happy. Thank you. You're happy?

Tommy: Yeah. Can you see it already?

Josh: Yep. Yeah, it's coming in the bag. It's coming in the bag. Funnily enough, would it disturb you to know that I've actually, what you've ordered me, I've had this week? Well, can I explain?

Tommy: Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. Explain, explain, because I really feel like eating this right now, but I'm not eating it right now.

Josh: Thanks, Tommy, it says on the side. Enjoy the Bergs. Give feedback, grilled.com.au/feedback. What you've gotten me is the trio sliders. Brie chick, classic, zen chick, Pepsi Max.

Tommy: And this is Jessica Lucas inspired. Yeah, producer Jess. It's her. She's the— they call her the slider, or they call her trio, or they call her Yeah. So, that's it.

Josh: Sliders.

Tommy: This is her go-to. Sliders. The trio of sliders from Grilled. Have you had it before? I mean, never, never had it. I saw it. I thought I want that. And I had to give what I wanted to you.

Josh: So, what do you think that I've gotten you?

Tommy: Oh, mate. See, you're sort of more central to the— closer to the city. There's more options, I feel. There is only a handful of things you can get me in the suburb that I'm in, Bulleen. So, most likely it's a kebab or a pizza or— I reckon that's it. That's all that is around here.

Josh: You could be on to something. How far off is— Actually, I can tell you how far off yours is. Hopefully nothing's happened in the meantime. Let's see. I'm just having a look at the Uber Eats app. I've actually used the business function, you know, like I put in the card. It's the first order I've done on the business expense because I normally leave that to you. And there's a whole section on Uber Eats where you put in your business. Is that what, is that what you do?

Tommy: Well, I did see that, and then you can assign other people to be able to use it. It seems quite— I mean, it's— yeah, it seems pretty thought through.

Josh: Arrival for you is in 4 minutes.

Tommy: Oh, great. I just need— Amy and I have— it was one of these things where she's like, I said, oh, I can't wait to share this with Josh on the show. She said, don't you dare put it on the show. And then she goes, have you heard what he said about Bree? Yes, that makes you— and then she said, that makes you want to do it more, doesn't it? When I say don't put on the show, I was like, yeah, it does. It definitely does. One of the most infuriating— this is silly because it's such a basic question— infuriating Every time she's going outside, she says to me, "Well, what's the weather? Is it cold? Should I put on a jumper?" I actually came to the conclusion that it's pretty safe that in wintertime, always go warm.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Always go warm. It's not like summertime is like you can be— look outside and it looks a bit— and then you go out and it's super hot. Spring, mate, safe to wear a jumper. And then just put it, hold it. And so, there's just this infuriating conversation.

Josh: Where is Amy going? Like, why are you going out? And then what's Amy planning?

Tommy: I'm at home and she's just going to do some shopping. It's always, what's the weather? Is it cold outside? Is it cold enough for a jumper? I'm just like, I can't take it.

Josh: Why don't you just set a rule and just say, look, I'll just tell you if it's hot.

Tommy: That's a good one. That's a good one. That's my relationship rule. I will inform you when the weather is too hot for a jumper, and then that's when you— So other than that, it's always a jumper that you'll be taking.

Josh: I mean, the thing you need to be aware of is when you bring up stuff within your relationship that's very low level, you are opening yourself up for feedback. I got some feedback last night.

Tommy: Have you had some?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Did you?

Josh: Got a text message.

Tommy: Unsolicited or did you—

Josh: Always unsolicited. When am I ever asking people for their opinions? In this sort of context, you know. All right. All right. So, I got this from Ben Fordham at 8:37 PM last night.

Tommy: Mate, you got breakfast radio in about 3 hours' time. What are you doing up messaging Josh?

Josh: So, mate. And it's all written out, like very sort of spread out. He says, mate. Oh, wow. Buy your own fucking coffee. Get up first. Get in the shower first. Buy the fucking coffees. Bree is not your mum or your personal assistant. If it means something to you, take control. Thanks, bro. BF.

Tommy: Best friend or Ben Porter? Best friend.

Josh: I mean, I think, I mean, I don't like being told what to do, so I didn't get the coffee this morning because I felt like I'd be doing it for Ben. And if I'm going to do it, it's for Bree and I.

Tommy: That is funny. That is funny. I'm pumped for this food.

Josh: I'll tell you how it's very hard to concentrate, isn't it, when you're trying to decide?

Tommy: When you get a delivery. Bodhi just got a delivery from his grandparents. He was so excited and he got a brand new transformer.

Josh: I can actually give Bree one of the sliders. Breezy, do you want to— I got sliders. Do you want to— do you want to— you can have, you can have one of them and just put the other two on the plate. You pick the one that you want.

Tommy: Oh, now that is a generous guy. You know, don't listen to Ben Fordham.

Josh: What sort of, what sort of guy is giving out one of these sliders? And it's definitely— I'm not doing this for Optics. I was going to do it anyway. I forgot we were recording, to be honest.

Tommy: Do you know, I actually got it thinking Because I am always considering, what if Bree likes, wants to eat?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Two, it's like a fun time for us. And I thought you could have given her one, so I'm glad that you did and I didn't have to tell you to do it.

Josh: Hopefully she takes one of the chicken ones. If I end up with two chicken, I'll be—

Tommy: Well, Bodhi's favourite food at the moment, I don't know if it's a food, it's definitely not a food, vitamin C tablets that taste like orange. He's obsessed.

Josh: I mean, you're doing that a bit, like you're going in the vitamin C a lot.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's always, always good. I'm feeling a bit under the weather. But I gave him— I crack off half, and so he gets half a tab. But now I've realised that I can't go for a drive with him because sometimes I want him to go to sleep and we have to go for a little hoon around the suburb. I can't give him a vitamin C around the time that we go in the car where he might be sleeping, because this week in the car and I'm tired. When you're trying to get a kid to sleep, it's like usually coincides with you being really tired as well because you're like, oh God, when will this kid sleep so I can just like put my chair back and just have a little nap? Because he won't sleep in a bed during the day, sleeps at night in his bed.

Josh: So, you go into the— You go to a car park or something?

Tommy: I have many, mate. I have been everywhere. Do you hear them in the car parks lurking?

Josh: The guy that got a fine because he was in his car. Do you hear about this?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I'm going—

Josh: Because there was a— His housemate was having loud sex. So, that's why he—

Tommy: That was after curfew, though. It was after curfew. And so, you're a gronk if you're out after curfew. It's just, it's the rule. Don't leave the house after 8. Whereas I'm dry, like it might coincide with getting petrol or I'm just, I'm heading out, right? I'd be so surprised if they actually find you and you're like, mate, I've got a kid.

Josh: Be a good story. I feel like you'd be able to create a video on it.

Tommy: Oh, definitely, definitely. So what's the vitamin C got to do with it? So Bodhi's trying to sleep and he doesn't— it's a bit sour for him to crunch up the vitamin C tablet. And so what he started doing is just, just licking it like a cat licking a salt lick. And so in the back, he's lying, he's falling asleep. And then he drops the vitamin C and wakes up and, where is it? And he's panicking, panicking. Where's my vitamin C gone? Who's stolen it? Oh, grabs it. And then there was a few times where he actually dropped it down onto the ground and I had to pull over and fucking get this thing. No more. No more.

Josh: What about an Everlasting Gobstopper?

Tommy: Oh, remember those things?

Josh: That'd be— No, but you can still get them. If I got— If I sent you guys one as a gift for Bodhi, would you let him have it?

Tommy: No, no, he'd become obsessed with it. It'd be like some sort of weird, weird sort of tick of his. He'd just have it in his pocket and just be just pulling it out every 5 minutes. It's, it's freaky.

Josh: Did you have one as a kid though?

Tommy: Yeah, we went to the— I used to get them from the shops, smaller ones and then the big ones. I got too impatient with them, so I'd like to like break them open and then like you get a different flavour and there's a bit of fizz on the inside. I'm actually surprised. Bodhi is a— he holds stuff. Like he doesn't go necessarily— I would think because he loves chocolate, he would just go like, like stuff his face.

Josh: He like hides it and shit.

Tommy: No, he just, he goes slow at it and he savours it. I was really impressed.

Josh: Is this just on the vitamin C or is this actually chocolate? Because he was smashing through the Easter eggs.

Tommy: Yeah, he was, but they're like a bigger piece of chocolate, um, some desserts.

Josh: Your order's lost, by the way.

Tommy: Is it? Is it? All right, I'm gonna go cheque this.

Josh: Hang on. All right, so everyone, what I've gotten him is some McDonald's. I got him, uh, nuggets, a Big Mac, and something else, and some sauces too. But he can— he will let him do this. Oh, here we go. Are you happy? Are you happy or not?

Tommy: Yeah, well, it depends on what's in it.

Josh: I feel like you're disappointed.

Tommy: No, no, no, no, I— no, um, I'm happy because— no, there's a Big Mac in there. I'm unhappy.

Josh: Well, the Big Mac was free.

Tommy: Was it?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Well, Amy can have the Big Mac. I'm happy. I, I had the rule of not eating, um, beef. Meat. And so, no, this is good. So this is great because it's actually what I would never go and buy. And so it's always nice when you get something.

Josh: Okay, describe what you would never buy.

Tommy: All right, so I've got, uh, Chicken McNuggets, 10 of them.

Josh: Um, wasn't it 20? 10?

Tommy: Oh, hang on, 2 packs of 10.

Josh: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you've got this one.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: All right, got 2 of these. I got a Filet-O-Fish, very, um in theme with this week because we're talking about the filo fish.

Josh: Filo fish, I want to see what it looks like. Oh wow, it looks fake. It literally looks fake. Oh my God, let's get the thumbnail for that. That's ridiculous.

Tommy: Hang on, I'll pull that down. Look at it glistening.

Josh: That's ridiculous. It, it really does look fake. And so you've got a filo, filo fish, filo fish, filo fish, some nugs. The sauces. What sauces have you got?

Tommy: All right, I got, um, oh, I got Big Mac sauce.

Josh: Oh, how much is the Big Mac sauce? I want to say, okay, yeah, it's, it's just a small little serving.

Tommy: No, it seems like normal size. And then I've got, um, what else we got here? We got sweet and sour. Yeah, you're standard, stock standard. And then, um, what else is down here? What's in this? Shaker fries.

Josh: Oh yeah, so do you know what shaker fries are?

Tommy: Dude, old school.

Josh: I don't understand it, so I just, I just added it in, but what is it?

Tommy: So shaker fries, cheeseburger flavoured shaker seasoning for shaker fries.

Josh: Oh, and so is it like Peri Peri? Is that the idea? Like it's like a Peri Peri chips?

Tommy: Yeah, so it's like, yeah, it's so, it feels like a salty, you know, salt.

Josh: What does it say to do? Has it got instructions?

Tommy: I'm just going to start eating one of my Oh my God, so it smells like cheeseburger. It smells like the sort of oniony, um, yeah, the onion. Oh, it's just a powder. And so what I'm going to do is mix in some, um, some chips into this bag that they supply you with. I won't go all of them so I can sort of have a few with some other stuff.

Josh: While you do that, I'll show you everyone what the sliders look like. It's a slider from Grilled. Bri ended up giving me all 3 because she felt like a sandwich instead.

Tommy: Oh really? Oh, here we go. Okay, so I've shaken up the Shaker Fries and I've got, um, oh wow, do they taste different? Heaps different.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: So it's giving them a full flavor. Like, Macca's chips are just salty. Now these are like actually adding a flavour to it.

Josh: So Shaker Fries When did they, like, I wonder if you can just buy, because I saw, I nearly got this for you, but I thought it would have been annoying. You can buy milk and bread from Maccas now. You should have got me a Maccas bag and you just got me like groceries from Maccas, but I thought you would have been pissed off.

Tommy: Do you know, in the back of my head today, because I haven't eaten meat from Maccas, like I said, for a couple of years. Meat being beef, um, I literally was like, oh, maybe I'll just get like— because I wanted burgers today. And so you nailed it, you've nailed it. And I was like, maybe I'll just get like a dirty Big Mac or something.

Josh: Like, so will you have the Big Mac? It's been a while. Yeah, I think have it because— so you're having the, the fillet-o-fish? Fillet-o-fish?

Tommy: It's fillet.

Josh: Fillet. O-Fish? It's meant to be.

Tommy: Yeah, is there an O in the middle?

Josh: Yeah, there is. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Tommy: Filet-O-Fish.

Josh: Now, so they put a lot of tartare sauce. A lot.

Tommy: That's good. Mmm.

Josh: Happy?

Tommy: Yeah, I'm happy. And it's actually Amy's favourite burger.

Josh: Really? So you're gonna give that a half? Is it fishy?

Tommy: It definitely tastes like fish. Yeah.

Josh: Like a big, um, finger, a fish finger, we big fish.

Tommy: Tastes like that, but better.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: Yeah, we had them, we had them.

Josh: Amy was a big fish finger kid. Is it a rectangle? Maybe that's why she likes them. Is it? Because I think I remember when I worked at Macca's, they were like small rectangular.

Tommy: It's at the bottom and it's, it's complete, it's just like a, it's completely melted.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: And so I couldn't tell you what shape it is.

Josh: No, that's fine. All right, and so are you gonna have your Big Mac then?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Okay. I feel like this is one of the whole cases of like, oh no, you got me a Big Mac, and then I was like, I'm gonna have to eat it. No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna eat it. It's like, you don't have to. No, no, no, no, it's in my mouth. I didn't say I had to eat it.

Tommy: I've got willpower, but off the alcohol.

Josh: Yeah, but you have a certain amount of willpower.

Tommy: Do you reckon? Yeah.

Josh: Do you reckon it's a good thing to do? So, there is, um, it's a thing called ego depletion. So, look it up. We all have a bucket of willpower and there's only a certain amount, like it's not endless amount. So, if you decide, I'm going to eat well, that uses up a bit of your willpower. Then if you decide, okay, I'm going to get up at 6 AM, that uses some more. And you can get to a point where there's no willpower left, and that's ego depletion. And if you get to that stage, you start doing, uh, shit that you just want to do. So it's just like, ah, fuck it, I'm going to eat the Big Mac, because you've got no— none left in your bucket.

Tommy: Why ego depletion? It's not saying that your ego is driving your— what's, what's the ego driving?

Josh: Yeah, it's interesting. I'll tell you. So ego depletion theory I think I read this in, um, uh, I think Dan Ariely, the organisational psychologist, spoke about it. Ego depletion— this is on Wikipedia— ego depletion refers to the idea that self-control or willpower draws upon a limited pool of mental resources that can be used up, with the word ego used in psychological sense rather than the colloquial sense. When the energy for a mental activity is low self-control typically is impaired, which would be considered a state of ego depletion.

Tommy: So, okay, so it's almost like it's more of a— you, you're vulnerable when you're really tired, you've had a huge day, and so if you're relying on your, your will, like that willpower or that holding off, it can be affected by the times that you are tired or it's all a bit too much, which is where the non-negotiable thing, I guess, becomes a powerful thing. So you're not relying on power or, you know, self-control because it's a, I don't do that.

Josh: Well, I don't drink. So this is the whole thing. So this is the thing. So the, um, where it gets used is when it comes to food and things like that. So if you, um, if you don't want, if you want to lose weight or if you want to control your calories, If you want to avoid ego depletion, one of the senses is you— It's like a language change. So, normally when people are at a party and they're on a diet and they're serving cake, there's two different ways that you can say it and like decline the cake. And depending on how you say it will depend on whether it will potentially use some of your willpower or not. So the first version, uh, is, uh, I can't have that, or I'm not allowed to, I'm not allowed that. And so if you do that, that is using, I think, more willpower because, uh, you are potentially wanting it. Whereas if you change the language to I don't want that, no thank, uh, no thanks, I don't want any, That then is way more powerful because you're actually not entering into that, uh, the bucket of willpower.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I get it. Because then when you're like, oh, I miss it, I wish I could have it, and then you're saying no, then you're— you feel the pain in that because you're longing for it at that moment. It's, um, Amy's getting stuck right into that fillet o' fish.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: And she just said, I fucking love it. Happy, happy girl in this house.

Josh: This is good.

Tommy: For me, the drinking stuff, it's like having such a clear no in my head doesn't— I don't feel like I'm requiring any willpower. I'm required— I don't need anything. There's actually nothing.

Josh: That's because you've reconciled that this is a choice that you want to make. It's not happening to you. Yeah, you are choosing. And that's where, like, if you work somewhere, you have way more likely— like, there's a higher likelihood to succeed if you're at a workplace and you say, this isn't perfect for me right now, but I'm working here because I'm going to— I'm making money to be able to go on to the next thing, or because I'm doing this or that. Versus if you say, I fucking hate my job, I don't want to be here, but I have to be here. All of a sudden you're, um, you're entering into a space where you're a bit of an out of control, and you're going to have to enter into your willpower and then Yeah. All of a sudden, if you're using your willpower for that, then all of a sudden when a Big Mac comes in front of you like it has now, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe needs to eat it. And so, I mean, you can, you can actually see that, like, how many times have you in the last— like, I, I can relate to this anyway. It's like you give yourself a break. How many times are you like, I forgot to give myself a break, like, fuck, I've worked hard all day, I'm just going to order food, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, and I think the reason is, is because if you're in Victoria right now, we're having to enter into willpower because we are not deciding to be stuck at home right now. And so, I think that that's why for me, I was very keen in the early days to be like, we're making the choice of moving early as a way of it not feeling as though it was being forced upon us or it was a decision that was made by us. Because if it's a decision made by us, ownership and all of that sort of stuff is at a higher level. Yeah, anyway, Big Mac.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I, I could— I put my sort of blinkers on. It helps for certain things. And I, and I think about how it can be destructive to be sort of single-focused, like if you are sort of that rigid rule, and then what kind of energy that brings. And the alcohol one requires some level of trade-off about being so just like, no, I— that's not what I do at this moment. Has a whole bunch of ricochet effect, but then there's— it's like weighing up. So there's like some negatives in that sort of, um, really sort of strict thinking about how I don't do it, and that's, you know, but then on the other side is a higher benefit, a higher reward than any of the little negatives that come out of having a really focused mindset. And so, I mean, look at athletes. It's like some of them are so— like what it requires to achieve whatever they're doing, training and not doing all the things. You see how it's like it can be really destructive when they come out the other side because it falls apart because they were able to achieve in a certain area and have all this sort of strict rules around behavior, and then when you release it, what happens there?

Josh: It's like, well, all of a sudden you have choice. And so what happens with— so you deciding not to drink, all of a sudden you don't have to necessarily use the willpower like you had to before. So if it was— if you had the option of, oh yeah, I have a balanced diet and I drink whenever, and it's like I'm just it's all about balance, you're potentially having to use that willpower. And there's a great, there's an old—

Tommy: You know what it avoids though? Sorry, just to say, what you avoid, so for me that approach of I'll just do it sort of, you know, every now and then, blah, blah, blah, nothing specific, it's just I end up might drink fucking 5 days in a row and then have 3 weeks off and then whatever it be, once a week for multiple weeks. What happens is the feelings about myself, and so then it's like how you are looking at yourself, and that's that self-talk of like, oh, you piece of shit, you haven't done this right, or you're not doing— you know, that's where the pain can come from. Whereas the strict no allow it, like you're not entering into those feelings. And so it definitely works for some. It's just about, is it consistent? Can you keep it consistent for the rest of your life or for a long period of time?

Josh: But then there's, I think it's a TED Talk, the paradox of choice. Have you watched that?

Tommy: No.

Josh: I just remember the guy's got really good jeans on, he's like old school sort of.

Tommy: What kind of jeans?

Josh: Subi? Nah, they're like a light blue.

Tommy: Are they Subi jeans?

Josh: Yeah, I don't know, they were cool jeans. But there's, it's what year, 2006. So, it's 14 years old, but the Paradox of Choice, it's even a book. The theory is rather than just reading it, I'll just tell you what I remember of it. It's just the whole thing of why is it that we have Netflix, Stan, and all of this, all these different fucking streaming services, yet we can't work out what fucking movie to watch. And so, I think that this plays into it as well, where it's like, um, more choice doesn't mean that life's easier. It actually gets harder. That's why it's great, like In-N-Out Burger is fucking awesome because it's like you've got only a few things on the menu. And that's where, from, uh, Apple's perspective in the '90s, Apple had so many different products and they were failing. And when Steve Jobs came back, it was all about simplifying. It was giving consumers less rather than more choice, which I think is, um, something that, uh, gets, gets lost because you just want to add so much more.

Tommy: Oh yeah, so there's— it's like an illusion that multiple options gives you. Ah, you feel comfort in, oh, I've got lots of— I've got lots to choose from. So I feel, you know, it's like you can only choose one. So yeah, but then that is the thing. So that's the paradox. Oh, I love having lots to choose from. Then you're like, fuck, I can't even choose one. It definitely happens. Yeah, so often. Yeah. And so then I just let— I always land on watching The World's Toughest Prisons. Let's be honest, that's what everyone lands on. It's like when you're like, you know, there's choices that you make when it's like you're fed up with everything else, and so you've given up at that point and you're watching something just because it's, it's there. You don't, you don't care for it and you're like, whatever. I found that the other night and I was watching World's Toughest Prisons and it was like season 3 or something. And this host, he was awesome. And he was like, I was like, is this guy tough motherfucker or what? Like, I can't tell. He goes in and stays in the prison for 5 days and he's, you know, he's in like South America or he's in—

Josh: this is where there was the German one.

Tommy: German, yeah. So yeah, the German German one where they've got fucking everything. It's a kingdom. No, no.

Josh: Do they have the glass SodaStream? They've got the crystal one.

Tommy: But I was looking this guy up and let me find him. He served 12 years in prison and he was talking because I thought he was just like, you know, a bit of a poser. It'd be like me in there doing presenting. It's like someone's like, oh, how good is this? This guy, anyway, he did 12 years in prison and he was wrongfully convicted. He never committed the crime.

Josh: That's full on.

Tommy: Isn't that horrible?

Josh: Yeah, it's not ideal. Yeah, my go-to one at the moment with that, like just having a fallback, is Schitt's Creek.

Tommy: Schitt's Creek, yep, you've mentioned that.

Josh: Fucking great, yeah. So, Brie and I think like, so easy. When you have a show that you can watch, they only go for like 20 minutes. So you can like punch out two and it's no problem. But just having the— at the end of the day, we know what we're watching. Yeah, is, is so much easier.

Tommy: Yeah, I think so. This guy's name, I think, is, uh, Rafael Rowe. Rafael Rowe. And in prison he learned journalism.

Josh: Oh, that's cool.

Tommy: Yeah, he studied journalism and came out the other side and now lands a TV gig. I mean, imagine those lives where you're just like you know, when people, people that just have gone through, you know, high school, got a job, you know, had it pretty easy, just, you know, life's, you know, it's meant to be where it's meant to be. It's like very easy to say that, but when you have something very tough like being sent to prison when you didn't do the crime, oh, and then your life actually turns out well on the other side, or you get it back on the straight and narrow, and then you, you know, it's a serving, it's a serving belief to think this all happened for a reason. I am here because of X, Y, and Z. And if it didn't, you know, the lessons I learned from those tough times. I mean, what else, what else have we got to really pull on?

Josh: Well, yeah, everyone's got their own unique story. Uh, Ray Mooney, who was my old screenwriting lecturer, he, um, he was the first Australian prisoner to get his degree in prison.

Tommy: Wow, that was Pentridge Prison, wasn't it?

Josh: Uh, yep, it was at H Division there, but it was just interesting. Like, he, um, he started off writing plays and then films. And, um, yes, it's, it's interesting because I remember, um, he's such a, uh, yeah, he was— he had such an impact in regards to how he taught. He was such a, um, he, he's such a great teacher.

Tommy: Um, yeah.

Josh: And yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to think about thing. Like, I think that people go into, oh, what did you— like, what did you do? Or what the whole thing is. But it's interesting with a lot of, um, people who have those experiences, you don't feel— you don't necessarily feel comfortable. Are you eating a Big Mac? Is that what that sound is?

Tommy: No, sorry, this is a nugget.

Josh: Okay.

Tommy: What are you saying? Do you think he had an interesting perspective?

Josh: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. I think that like he, um, he Uh, he's written some interesting books on, on, uh, on sort of the topics of things that he's learned whilst being like— so where he's become friends with inmates and then sort of learned about different things. Yeah, um, yeah, I just remember like because I was younger, like I was 21 when I found out. I was like, oh, he was in fucking prison. And it's just like, it's that whole, um, it's a weird thing like the first time. Like, do you— have you, uh Have you ever become friends with someone and then found out that they've had some crazy past?

Tommy: No, I think it's, I think it's the curiosity around someone that may have a disability, be in a wheelchair, you know, could have had an accident. And it's the curiosity around how it happened. And, you know, because I think everyone's thinking about themselves at that point. It's like, wow, like you're looking at your own life thinking about if you went to prison or if you were in a car accident, all these things. And I've had friends that have been all in all of those situations— prison, paraplegics, you know, it's, it's all of that. Suicide, what happened, you know, you just— it's, you're instantly taken to the place. But, um, no, I mean, we've had Mick Hall on the show who served quite a long time in prison, and now he's, you know, helping people, um, kick, kick the habit, kick drug addiction with a rehab facility, Dayhab. And I mean, that's where it's like, it would feel like a new existence. It would feel like you've had two lives, right? A lot of these people like that have been in prison have had a belief system to survive those places, and then if they're coming out, they're needing to acclimatise to a whole new not just environment, but internal environment, about how to live in this world. And so, yeah, it's a unique perspective that you can't get without having that experience. So, there's definitely something different about the people who've been through it.

Josh: Have you had any friends that have gone to juvie that were able to come out on the other side a better person? Because I don't know what I was reading, but I was reading something the other day around, um, maybe the book The Listening Society, but they were talking about, um, how juvie, uh, basically just fucks with people. Like, it's actually not— yeah, it doesn't serve. Like, there needs to be some sort of intervention that happens at a young age, but it needs to be around education or trying to work out a purpose for the— for these individuals, rather than putting them into a system that, uh, where everyone's committing crime and, and that's where, you know, it sort of becomes a systemic thing.

Tommy: Oh, my friend would call me most nights from juvenile, and he'd— and so he'd call. So what the way he'd do it was, because you can't call like numbers, fucking, um, serial. Yeah, yeah. But so what he did, his mum would call me and then bring me in on the three-way, and then we would just chat. And so we were connected, and then we'd be chatting. But he definitely—

Josh: the—

Tommy: what I heard from him about that environment Imagine being at a school camp. I don't know if you've had the experience with like the boys, which is probably the most negative part of having the boys where you feel like there's stacks on. It's like you don't feel safe. You feel like, yeah, it is like you're fucking— things are getting thrown. You're all staying in one room. You know, I had a bottle, a 2-liter bottle of water thrown in the dark and it fucking hit me on the dick and my balls went up into my chest. And it's just like, I just remember that feeling of, I'm— you're not safe in this moment. He— that's what you're on edge in those places. I don't think there's— I don't think you can just think you're at home. You don't. And so I think he had something to do with a banana, and there was some guys were fucking with him. And like, these are young, young kids, but they're nasty as fuck, a lot of them. That's why they're in there. They're not in there because they're just good good little kids. They're in there because they're fucked.

Josh: So what's the solution, do you think?

Tommy: I don't know. I mean, it could be something around real-world examples with— so real-world, uh, like life lessons. So I don't know, there could be some kind of system that takes young kids and partners them with adults that, you know, uh, know a thing or two, have been through similar experiences and come out the other side, role models. But this is the thing, we're not— we're trying to solve the judicial— what is it called— the judicial system, or the fucking— like, that is such a broad—

Josh: like, it's even broader than that, right? It's the, um, yeah, where does forgiveness— where does, um, environment versus like your fucking genetics— like, where does that all sort of fit? Like, are there people that are born that are just fucking tweaked?

Tommy: Yes, it's mental health. And so I mentioned to Mick Hall, who was in prison for many years, he said, in some of the hardest prisons in Australia, I said, oh, you know, it's for— they're trying to reform you. And he laughed at that point. Like, they're not— they're locking people up. They don't want to— maybe there's a small case of people coming out really reformed and more educated than when they went in, more empathetic and more like whatever. But I think there is the other side where it's like they're locked up. You're caging it, you're caging humans.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And this is without looking at what they've done, because there's many that fucking deserve to be locked away and there's not much coming back for a lot of them. But it's—

Josh: and then you look at their life experience and how fucked up things that they may have experienced, and then Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: I mean, this world's—

Josh: cyclical problem.

Tommy: World's Toughest Prisons is a version of looking at what the system looks like in different countries. And so South America, this one, there was— it's a full hierarchy. Like, there is a market stall within the prison where people are running businesses, and this one guy was running a business that was making more money on the inside than what what he was making on the outside as a drug dealer. And so he lost his house, and now he was the kingpin in this space without being like a— when you say kingpin, it's not like some killer. He was just like a guy that ran this area and literally become a business person and had bought a house since being in there for his family on the outside. Like, it's, it's fascinating. It's worth watching because then you jump over to Germany, it's a different thing, and you jump over to Asia and it's like Fuck me. And if you could be— you don't want to be—

Josh: you see some of these things, it's like, oh man, they're so entrepreneurial. If they could just move it to something that wasn't illegal, they would actually do really well.

Tommy: Mate, I knew a lot of drug dealers when I was young. Good business, like, for what they were selling, they were good operators.

Josh: Good product.

Tommy: Yeah, you know, you know, it's supply and demand, I tell you, bro.

Josh: Can you, um, can you eat the Big Mac?

Tommy: Oh yeah, I've already been eating it. I've already— I've got halfway through it. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's great.

Josh: I mean, on mic, Big Mac bite.

Tommy: Yeah, I'll get on that. Tastes like a Big Mac.

Josh: It's good. And on that note, uh, I'm gonna go. I didn't want to eat on camera, uh, I had a few, but I've got shit in my teeth. It's annoying the fuck out of me. I need some floss.

Tommy: Um, well, I'm gonna go watch World's Toughest Prisons. Perfect.

Josh: You know, I think I'm gonna go watch It's Craig. It's a daily talk show. If you haven't yet, Toni Lodge, the legend, she has her own podcast. It's called One Trick Toni. If you type One Trick Toni, that's Toni with an I, into your favourite podcast app, you can listen. There's 2 episodes.

Tommy: Or Instagram as well.

Josh: Just get a little Insta, One Trick Toni Show. Yeah, don't troll the person that's got One Trick Tony. We did contact her to try and get it. Yeah, and uploaded.

Tommy: And we—

Josh: for a long time you would have thought that we could all get it.

Tommy: We will get it.

Josh: Yeah. All right, cool. Today we talk show. Enjoy the rest of your day. Have a good one. See ya.

Tommy: Love you guys. Bye.