Zach Mander On Content Ownership & Delusion

Zach: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 820.

Tommy: Internets, uh, Zach Manders joining us on today's show. Welcome, Zach.

Zach: Thanks, Tommy and Josh. Pleasure to be here.

Tommy: Uh, the official internets. I, uh, I just went there. I mean, you're across a few different things. You're a bit of a slashy. Hey, what— you, um, you've been sipping at a cup and I haven't been able to see what's on the cup. What have you got there? What is that?

Zach: It's a pretzel. It's a dog pretzel. It's some type of dog pretzel situation.

Tommy: A hot dog?

Zach: I don't know.

Tommy: It's sort of a sausage dog in pretzel shape. That is great.

Josh: I thought you were offending the ABC. I thought it's a little bit like, you know, remember the famous ABC ads with the 3 things or whatever? It's beautiful. Where'd you get it, by the way?

Zach: I could never do that. Did you guys used to watch that and you try to like recreate it? I was never able to do it as a kid. I got this from New York.

Tommy: My wife—

Zach: Yeah, that's right. My wife got it for— as a souvenir from New York. And yeah, so it's a nice mug.

Josh: That's great.

Tommy: I love it. This morning there was a bit of mug chat on a business Zoom call that we had. And Josh, you told us that your mum had a thing where she had to drink from white mugs, otherwise she would flip her lid.

Josh: Yeah, well, I just remember Mother's Day. And I got Mum a mug and there was a little bit of frustration because it wasn't the colour that she drinks out of. I didn't realise that that was a thing. But then we found out from Jess, who works with us, she needs to have a certain— Like, she doesn't have a thick— She can't have a thick mug. It has to be a thin mug. What is your mug preference, Zac?

Zach: Well, I'm going through a bit of a mug dilemma at the moment because we just have a mismatch of mugs. Over the last 10 years that we've collected. And I'm wondering, should I start again with a cohesive idea? Because, you know, you'll get like 3 from a set, then another 3 from a set, and you just collect, uh, just a rubbish amount of mugs. But now, like, those kind of like pottery mugs are coming in, you know, like the ceramic ones.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Zach: And I go to people's houses and they have whole collections of them, and I'm like, don't you have like 3 mugs that you got when you were 18, 3 that you got that your auntie gave you when you moved out of your house? Like, doesn't everyone have that mismatched collection, but I go to people's houses and they have such cool collections. They all have like a collective idea and an identity.

Tommy: Well, it's like an infection on an old computer— not infection, a virus. It just like gets worse and worse. As soon as you've got a rogue mug in your layout, it's just another one will come, another one will come. It's an absolute nightmare. I tell you what, I didn't think I had much to say about mugs. Those pottery ones, You can't put them in the dishwasher. And so, I like, they get less use at my house because I'm like, I go for the one that can be put in the dishwasher. That's how lazy I am.

Zach: Is the pottery, is that the equivalent of our parents' fine china? Remember how you used to have the nice plates that you'd never use? Now we just put these, these myths, you know, because they don't, a lot of them don't even really look that fancy because the whole idea is that they're meant to look rough, isn't it? But now that's our equivalent of the fine things that we never pull out because we can't be bothered cleaning.

Josh: I just remember going to a, like one of those pottery places, like, you know, go 45 minutes out of the CBD and you, and it's all sort of handmade, all that sort of shit. But the fucking, like we brought it home and we realised it's all like, it was made in China anyway. And so like they've created this whole, the whole vibe and you're getting the sense of like, I think that, you know, put a bit of clay around and you get a sort of a few people with aprons with a bunch of clay in.

Zach: It fucking—

Josh: It got me. I could have just got it from eBay.

Zach: I bought a nice teapot from Japan in a back alley. It was like in this marketplace. I got back to Australia and I saw it in a Westfield.

Josh: Turns out the marketplace was Alibaba.

Zach: How annoying.

Tommy: I'll tell you what else was made in China.

Josh: The virus.

Tommy: No, no, I'm not going to do a Trump and say COVID-19. TikTok. And Zach, you, you're, uh, you're pretty big on TikTok, mate. You go hard there. I really enjoy, uh, your, uh, your little tickies, TikToks. I'm so out of the loop, aren't I?

Zach: Thank you, man. I have been making a few TikToks lately. It's, it's been fun. I like TikTok. It's, it's, you know, when social media platforms are young and they're fun and they're still in their original form, so they haven't been diluted yet.

Josh: Audience, are you talking about actual TikTok.

Zach: Well, I, you know, I haven't, you know, everyone says TikTok's for teenagers or whatever. I don't see any teenagers. I think the algorithm kind of like filters it towards what you like.

Josh: Yeah. What are you seeing?

Zach: People my age.

Josh: Okay, that's good.

Zach: Or at least they look my age. I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, they're wearing school uniform, but they look— I mean, the thing, the other thing is, Zach, like kids kids look like they're 30 now. Like, they're not— they don't dress like how we used to dress. Like, what was your style growing up as a kid?

Zach: Uh, it was back when, you know, like Billabong and Rip Curl, you know, you'd get like the huge logo across your, um, across your shirt. I remember like when I first went into high school, I made the decision that I was only going to wear stuff from City Beach. Did you guys have City Beach? Yeah, yeah, down in Melbourne.

Josh: Yeah, City Beach was very cool. Like, that's like the surf shop. Yeah, it's very cool.

Tommy: Yeah. What is that?

Josh: Hot Cheetos?

Tommy: Was that around then? Were they selling piping hot?

Josh: Sorry. Well, piping hot, it was— Is piping hot a Big W brand?

Tommy: How old are you, Zac?

Zach: I'm 30. I'm 30.

Tommy: I feel like you look 14.

Josh: It's the TikTok effect.

Tommy: You look like you're from TikTok.

Josh: It's the denim. I mean, it looks great on you. It really makes your eyes pop.

Zach: Yeah.

Tommy: Fuck, I'm only 32. And if you're saying that I'm off with my references, you age a lot in I'll tell you what happens.

Zach: This is what I think what happens with these surf brands is I think Piping Hot was the top tier for a while, and then they sell them to like big distributors. And then once they start showing up in like Big W and Target, that's when they start slipping away. Because I remember when World Industries, when we were— when I was in year 8 and a skater, World Industries was like the coolest brand in the world. And then all of a sudden it started showing up in Target and it's like, what?

Josh: Yeah, World Industries.

Zach: I was so confused. I'm like, is this cool anymore? I don't know what to do.

Josh: I have spoken about World Industries multiple times. Do you remember this brand, TJ? I feel like it's the yellow— it's the yellow guy. Is that the— is that the one, Zach?

Zach: It's— yeah, there was a—

Josh: there was—

Zach: it was a fire emblem and there was a water emblem.

Tommy: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little devil with a pitchfork.

Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Definitely had stickers, stickers on skateboards. I mean, what, what's your— what's your, um, thoughts on knockoffs and people wearing knockoff branded clothes, Zach?

Zach: Ah, well, I'd be more concerned about where the knockoff's being made. That's probably my big issue with it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, the—

Tommy: takes it political.

Zach: When we were, uh, when we were kids, so what we'd do is like we'd buy— I've never actually executed this plan, but I always had plans to because they would sell the World Industry patches that you could sew onto things. And my friends and I always had a plan to like, we'd buy Target denim shorts, but then we'd put like a name brand patch on it. But none of us could sew, so it never really came to fruition.

Josh: I mean, my mum always said that it was, um, they're all out of the same factory anyway.

Zach: I've been making these TikToks about the Aldi knockoffs because, you know, the cereals, they're all based around the Kellogg's names. And so, they have, my favourite is instead of Sultana Bran, they have Bran and Flakes. And A lot of people on TikTok say they coming— they're coming from the same factory. I don't think that's true, and that's probably going to be something I'm going to investigate this week. I want to find out if they are making them in the same factory because I just— I can't believe that that's true.

Tommy: Well, you'd have to then like either use the, the scraps so it tastes like the bottom of the barrel style. Otherwise you'd think that the people would be on to it like this. I mean, maybe it is. Maybe it's that sort of manipulation by the branding. You're like, just because you paid a bit more, it tastes better. It definitely could be. I'm ready for the full exposé from Zac on your TikTok, please.

Zach: Keep it under a minute. Keep an eye out.

Josh: I mean, nostalgia. I got some— it was called Sparkle. It's sparkling water. Are you a sparkling water guy, Zac?

Zach: No, I hate it. Too fancy.

Josh: No, I get it. I used to be that too when I was your age. Actually, you're older than I am. I'm not 30 yet, but—

Zach: There's never been a clearer division between Melbourne and Brisbane, has there? The fact that you guys are drinking sparkling water and I'm up here drinking tap water like a bogan.

Tommy: Well, technically, it's a hot day beverage. Like, I like sparkling water when it's really hot and I think it's a—

Josh: I actually think it's a post-coffee thing. I think that because we're drinking so much coffee, you can get a bit of dry mouth, a bit dry mouth. And so the, the sparkling water— yeah, the bubbles, even though they're probably not helping with hydration, it feels like it tingles your tongue and it makes you feel a bit better. Can you relate to this?

Zach: No, it tastes like watered down, uh, it tastes like a byproduct of soft drink. It tastes like something that they get out of the vat at the end after they've made Coke, you know what I mean? It just— it's something off about it.

Josh: So, are you a soft drink guy?

Zach: Ah, sure, don't we all drink soft drink?

Tommy: I'm—

Zach: I like the Bundaberg soft drinks, you know, the brewed ones.

Tommy: Well, that's a—

Zach: I hate—

Tommy: it's a Queensland—

Zach: passionate— I passionately— and I'm a proud Queenslander, but I passionately hate diet soft drinks. Why bother? And they're all moving to having like artificial sweeteners now. Hate it.

Josh: Well, this is the problem.

Zach: If you're gonna have soft drink, put sugar in it.

Josh: I know, I get that. I get that. I am a big no sugar guy, mainly for like, don't want diabetes, but I realise that I probably will get cancer from having it anyway. But the, so there was a special on it, I must think Woolies, and my girlfriend Bree, brought home. We have this Mount Franklin sparkling water, which is like raspberry flavoured, and it's all natural. It's got like 2 ingredients. It's carbonated water and natural flavour.

Tommy: And cancer.

Josh: And cancer. No, no, no, natural water. I don't think this is the cancer one. You're not going to get cancer from this. And so then you put it on your label. Then she also brought home a pack of cans that were Cotty's brand. Um, were you a cordial drinker when you were a kid?

Zach: Uh, no, my family didn't really drink too much cordial. What we did have was the, um, Golden Circle factory near our house when we were growing up, and that was where you'd go and you could get a pallet of like cans of different, uh, Golden Circle, uh, beverages. And I remember there was like peach iced tea soft drink like years before Lipton made it, and it was the greatest thing in the world, but they mustn't have sold any because at the factory there was just pallets and pallets of it. We'd buy it in bulk and I'd have that in the fridge for the next, you know, year, year and a half.

Josh: Is this the one that you would actually— TJ, I don't know if this is just a Melbourne thing, but you'd have like, there was the milkman who did his thing. That was obviously before our time. But then the closest thing to that was the soft drink subscriptions where you would get the soft drink in glass bottles and you'd put the glass bottles out and they'd replace them.

Tommy: I mean, I don't know why you threw to the 32-year-old. I'm not 75 that can talk about the olden days, bro. I mean, yeah, I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on.

Josh: Was— but it was that the golden— was that the same brand as what you're talking about, Zach? I don't know. TJ will look at it.

Zach: I don't know. I'll tell you a weird one about the deliveries, though. I was talking to a friend recently. You know how like the garbage man comes around and collects your bin, but before they had the arm A guy would be on the back and they would jump off and they would pull the bin over to the truck. When we were kids, and I grew up thinking this was really normal, the garbage man used to throw us lollies. And so, when we were like 6 years old, we'd run out at 6 in the morning and we'd wait on the footpath and the garbage man who was on the back of the truck would throw us lollies. And we just thought that was like a— We'd run back upstairs with our lolly. We had to put it besides our cereal and then we would eat our cereal and we're allowed to have the lolly afterwards. And I was telling someone recently and they're like, no, that didn't happen at my house. That's really strange.

Josh: Well, that didn't happen to you guys? Well, there was the Christmas time, the firies.

Zach: Yeah.

Josh: They go out with the Santa on the back and they're throwing out lollies. And it was only 3 years ago that Bri and I came back from our overseas trip and were living at my parents' place, and I did catch myself early in the morning without shoes on running out to get my lollies.

Tommy: Hip and shouldering as a 3-year-old. Yeah, yeah. Broke some necks. Speccing a dad. It still happens. It's more in the suburbs. We go up to my wife's mum's house for Christmas. And yeah, where they live, there's a Santa on a fire truck and it is great. These are all traditions. And it's interesting, like what we're talking about is either quirks from our parents or like guidance based on their needs. I mean, think about the stuff that we do. Quirks from the garbo. Quirks from the garbo. This is everything. Like, these are all things that people like as individuals. How do you— my question is, how the fuck do you end up at the point of under— like, not liking something? Like, what's that answer? You know, like, why don't you like the taste of something? Why don't you like soft drink? Why does one really feel strongly about soft drink and someone doesn't care at all? These are the life questions we tackle here, Zach.

Josh: Well, I mean, we should start off by like, what is something, Zach, that you don't eat? And not an allergy thing, but just something that you hate. And can you connect it to a story?

Zach: Well, I'm a vegetarian.

Josh: Okay. Yes, that's a big one.

Zach: No, I didn't know that because I know, uh, Josh You tried vegetarianism?

Josh: Yeah, I did. Yeah, I, in Los Angeles. How long was it for? It was probably 5 weeks. I did down—

Tommy: The burger that broke the camel's back was In-N-Out.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I did a bunch of time, but I, the problem was that I was still eating junk. So, it was like, it was the junk end of the vegetarian stuff. So, it was a lot of the faux meat products that were sort of big. Not like soy necessarily, but it was, yeah, a lot of, uh, a lot of peanut butter and shit like that. So I wasn't, wasn't feeling great. When did you go veggie and why?

Zach: Uh, about 4 years ago, and it was, you know, um, I guess animal welfare, climate, and, um, health.

Josh: Amazing. And when you say climate, you mean climate change, not just because in Brizzy you feel a bit like if you eat meat you feel a Because it's hot.

Zach: The meat sweats. Yeah, well, I hear it's good for the environment. I trust Leonardo DiCaprio's documentary.

Josh: I mean, you're pre-Game Changers, which is a— I've been watching Game Changers. That's a massive flex. I appreciate that. And so, what else aren't you eating?

Zach: I don't really not eat anything out of taste, I don't think.

Josh: What are the—

Zach: You know, because once you— It's hard once you've cut out meat, you can't really be too picky after that. You know what I mean? Like, once you knock out a really big part of it, I mean, if I was— had a— if I had big issues with broccoli, I'd really be running out of things pretty quickly.

Josh: Tomato.

Tommy: Do you think it makes you less fussy? Or— because being a fussy vegan is pretty hard. And so, yeah.

Zach: Yeah, you just have to eat what's presented to you. Love tomato. See, I even— I went to In-N-Out when I was in LA as a vegetarian, Josh. I didn't mind. You know, I don't mind the lettuce, tomato, cheese. What do they call it? They call it like a— a cheesy or something like that.

Josh: I don't know.

Zach: I just thought it was fine.

Josh: It just didn't— The problem I had with it was it was removing something without adding anything else. So, I just feel like—

Zach: Yeah, but see, here's the thing. It's all in your head, man. We've just been conditioned to think that the burgers need to be like that. The flavour is the sauce. That's what's going on. And so, as long as you got the sauce on there, why can't you have lettuce and tomato and cheese on a sandwich? Why do we have to put other things on? That's a fine sandwich.

Josh: Yeah, it is fine. I mean, are you a sandwich guy? Because I like, I find that if you gave me a sandwich in the traditional sense, like I haven't used bread that you would buy at a shop, you know, like you sort of your standard, not Wonder White, but even like any bread that's pre-sliced. I haven't taken that and turned that into a sandwich in probably 15 years.

Zach: The things I can do— we recently went to a cheese toasty place, my wife and I. We travelled halfway across Brisbane for this on a freezing cold day. It was a really bad decision. And after we ate it, I was like, I can do better than that. That was, that was so disappointing. And so things I can— like, that's now I won't buy toasties out because I can do it better at home. And once you start doing— once you start getting to a level where you can do things better at home, it, it's a real coming of age, isn't it? I mean, it's Because I feel like I'm seeing how the sausage is made now, and I'm like looking down the back of these toasty places, and I'm like, all you guys are doing, you just have the same toaster that I have, but you're charging me $15 for it. And so yeah, I love toasties, make a toasty all the time, uh, cheese and tomato, basil, bit of herbs from the backyard.

Tommy: What is it, what's a go-to as a vegetarian? You know, people like, oh, I love this specific steak joint. Do you have a thing that you're sort of, a lot of them are centred around meat. So, do you have one that's a vegetarian?

Josh: Vegetarian, I believe they pronounce it in Queensland.

Zach: You mean takeaway? Come on, that's a low blow.

Tommy: At the moment, at the moment it's probably takeaway, but a go-to place.

Zach: I really, well, there's a place up in Brisbane called Veggie Me in West End. We go there a fair bit, but That's mainly because of like our serving size. You'll get like 4 meals for the price of 1. So, that's like pretty efficient. But I like the Beyond Burger at Grilled. That's the best meat substitute in my opinion. That's pretty good. I get that pretty regularly.

Josh: And the— So, lockdown at the moment in Victoria is pretty full on. Like, we can't leave the house basically unless you're going out and exercising or if you're an essential worker. I've been out once in the past couple of weeks. What's the deal in Queensland? Are you wearing masks or anything like that?

Zach: No, man, no masks. Maybe 1 in 10 people will wear a mask in public.

Josh: We—

Zach: I don't— I haven't bought any masks yet, considering whether I'll need to. I don't know. We've just— I think it's been a week since we've had a case. And so, we're pretty open. We can go anywhere in Queensland. We can You can go outside. It's, it's, yeah, we're pretty okay. But it's sad to see everything happening down there, and we're thinking of you guys.

Josh: Oh, thank you. We're okay.

Tommy: I mean, I watched this, um, yeah, no, but what's funny is though, I watched, uh, he'd be a right-leaning guy, just like the state of, uh, you know, what's going on in Victoria, and he just went into this thing. I'm like, bro, I'm here and it's not that bad. Like, he was talking like we're in World War 3 in Melbourne, and it's like this draconian— I mean, these are all the words that they're using in the media, draconian state. And it's like the, the, the— when you're here and the sun is shining, you're looking outside, it's like, fuck, it's a nice day. And the, you know, when you label it as the 8 PM curfew, bro, I had a guy doing a burnout after 8 PM last night. He's a lunatic, he's edgy. But it's like, it's, it is interesting, it is serious. And like the mask thing, I was thinking I hadn't worn a mask. I was exactly the same feeling as you, Zac. And then you're just told to, and then it's like, ah, now we're here. It's a weird thing.

Zach: Yeah, I've got no problems with it. I don't have any problems. It's just a cultural thing. You know, I was in Japan last year and people just wear masks and it's fine. Like, no one even blinks at it. I don't— Like, there's no— Like, we should normalise it. Normally, there's been anecdotally, like, talking to my friends, I haven't been sick this winter, a lot of my friends haven't been sick and a lot of people are saying that's because of the social distancing. You know, the same precautions that we're using for COVID-19 is also going to prevent other viruses. Why don't, you know, why don't we wear masks all the time? I don't— What's the issue with it? Like, less of us are going to get sick. That's a good thing.

Josh: Yeah, it's just getting used to it, isn't it? Like, I, even though I have no issue with it, it's still at the annoying stage where it's like, if it's not— Well, tell me about it. You're going—

Zach: Are they, are they— See, I'm talking from someone who's never worn one. Like, is it, is it annoying? I can't really figure out how it's annoying.

Josh: So this is the thing. So when— Yeah, so when I, when I, when it was all announced, I was very much like, who gives a fuck? Like, it doesn't matter. And I still believe that, like, people complaining about having to wear it, uh, are being ridiculous, I think, for the most part. The thing, though, is that there is an uncomfortable nature to it because it's like if you go out, like the benefits of going out and walking outside, for me, I realise how much of it is about the fresh air bit. And so, the— like if I'm walking along, like the— on Sunday when I went for a walk, I like just lifted my mask down for a second and went and like took in a breath and then like, and it felt fucking amazing. And so, I think that part of it is you don't realise until these things change. And I think this is like a great gratitude practise in general. It's like you don't realise how good things are until they get taken away.

Tommy: Yeah.

Zach: I'll tell you a funny one on gratitude. Do you guys— Are you guys getting the promoted— The promoted— Well, you wouldn't, Josh, because you're not on Instagram, but, Tommy, you might. The promoted ads in your Instagram storeys for all these like mindfulness apps. I got one the other day. I got one the other day for gratitude, and there's like a guy with a really nice voice, and he's like— there's— I wasn't having a great day, I was feeling a bit low, and there's a guy and he goes like, there's 3— there's 3 billion people in the world that would instantly trade with your spot right now, with the idea of like giving yourself some perspective. But I kind of then just started feeling guilty that, you know, I have this great life and I'm not happy with it. I'm like, it did the total opposite for me. I'm like, great, now I feel bad that I don't feel good.

Josh: I feel like your YouTube videos, there's a level of politics in it, which with when you had your radio show Collective Noun, I feel like there's probably less room for that being on the hip network or being sort of a, you know, top 40 sort of tunes. Have you always been a guy that's into politics or is that something that's just come around given the situation we're in?

Zach: I don't know. I grew up watching The Chaser. Maybe that's a part of it. I don't really like politics that much. I just like anything where it's very serious. It's fun to— You make fun of it. Do you know what I mean? And so, and also they're just funny because they're always contradicting themselves and they have certain rules that they have to upkeep and you can kind of catch them out on it. And So, that's really the— I have the same general interest as everyone in politics, I think. I don't think I have an increased interest, but it's just, it's just, it's, it's, to me, it's a fun area to, to play in. Maybe not for everyone.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think what you could say about politics is that it affects everyone in some way, shape, or form. And so, I mean, people of our age, like, I've never thought or talked about politics more in in the last 2 years than I have in my lifetime.

Josh: Is it affecting you more?

Tommy: It's affecting me more, but I can't tell, is it age? Is it the time we're in? Or I don't know, a third one.

Zach: So, Zac, make that one up for me. He's got nothing. I can't think of one.

Josh: No, I think like—

Tommy: What do you think it is? Do you think it's the timing? Like why are you interested in sort of living yourself?

Zach: Well, we, we used— we— so on our radio show for a lot of years, we did this segment called Out of Context News where we would take politicians and we would change the throw. So it was a news— it was like a new— it was as if it was a news bulletin and we'd see like Donald Trump today was upset that KFC ran out of chicken and then we'd have a grab of him being like, I'm going to stop them. I'm gonna shut them down, you know, we'd get the TikTok grab. And yeah, he'd be like, I'm going to shut them down, it's not good enough, it's un-American, or whatever. And so we did that, that was our take on things. And so it was like taking, uh, the joke was kind of like serious people making comments about non-serious things. So that was always our take. And I remember when we started our radio show, uh, Tony Abbott was the one we were always using as like the punchline because he always said— not only did he say funny things, but it was— he had a funny cadence. He'd say them in funny way, and that made it that you could change the context of what he was saying really easily. And then he got voted out or whatever, just as we started our show full-time, and we thought, oh, well, now it's going to be a lot harder to get crabs. And honestly, it was like a week later Donald Trump got voted in, and we were like, oh my goodness, this guy's like Tony Abbott times 1,000.

Josh: The news cycle, are you Are you consuming news in a big way? Do you sort of control the amount of news you're reading? Uh, not really.

Zach: I, you know, Facebook, Instagram, I'm just the same as usual. I watch all the late night shows in America. I watch Colbert and Seth Meyers every day. And so that's probably where I'm getting most of my American news from. And then I just follow, you know, the normal people in Australia. I think ABC and SBS and stuff like that.

Tommy: Are you, if you're watching the American shows, are you across the drama with Ellen and then the potential of James Corden being the takeover of Ellen's position?

Zach: Well, yeah. I mean, I see that coming up in my feed. From what I can see, they're posting the same storey over and over every couple of days. I'm like, is anything changed here? No one has said anything new.

Josh: I think news.com.au have had an Ellen DeGeneres storey on their home page for probably the last 3 months. But yeah, it's actually, it's non-news. It's just like the same shit. It's just like people still don't like Ellen DeGeneres.

Zach: They're obviously getting clicks on it, and I think, you know, that's maybe a downside of where our media cycles are at the moment, is like it's driven by what gets results, not what is necessarily— I'm not saying no comment on that particular, but just generally what is newsworthy. And so like, you, you know, this is how all, you know, radio works like this as well. Just whatever's successful, they're going to keep doing it. And it's so— they're not, they're not filtering it around filters of like, what do we need to know, or what's the most newsworthy thing today. It's like, what's going to get the most clicks.

Josh: I mean, you were on— yeah, go on, TJ.

Tommy: I was just going to say, as a creator, how do you balance the approach of doing something for clicks versus doing something because you like the content? What's your approach?

Zach: Um, I don't know really, because, uh, because yeah, I guess you've got to balance both. You have to be interested enough in them to want to make it, but then if you ultimately— if no one's watching it, after a while it's not going to be self-sufficient. That's the reality, is like, you have to have an audience or else you're not going to be able to achieve your goals if you want to make a living from it. If you don't, then that's okay. And so I think it's just balancing, um, trying to find your interest in an area that lots of people are going to be interested in.

Josh: You've spent a lot of time and effort into the radio show, but also YouTube and online, like, I think that you guys have done it better than anyone that I've seen in Australia across all the different platforms.

Zach: Thank you.

Josh: Like, making the transition or realizing, hang on, this, you know, putting in all the work that you did from a radio context, 2020, everything that's happening, being at home, creating other things, not having the radio show. Has it given you a different perspective on the journey you're on?

Zach: Yeah, definitely. I— the importance of having an audience has been rammed home to me, and I think that's going to become more and more. I mean, the radio industry and generally broadcast media is not in a good spot, and I think it's going to continue to go that way. And you need— if you have an audience, you're— you have some insurance because you're always going to have a certain number of people people that you can talk to and that you can share your message with. And probably over the last 5 years, the, the perspective shift I've had in the last 6 months is I thought we were making videos, and so I was really determined and like focused on that content. I didn't realise what we were really making was an audience. And that probably would have— if I go back 5 years, that probably would have changed my perspective on some of the things we made, whereas like I was thinking about them as if like, you know, Uh, we were like always so careful that we would use, uh, music that didn't have any copyright infringements on and stuff like that, because I was thinking, you know, it would be a disaster if it was taken down.

Tommy: How—

Zach: and while other people around us, everyone was just using music that they were pulling off YouTube and whatever, thinking about it now, I'm like, well, if it had got taken down 3 days later but you had gained 500 followers, it had actually achieved is something better than it being up 5 years later and, you know, 10 people are watching it every month. That's not really achieving much. And so probably over the last few months I've changed my perspective on that. And we probably didn't participate in like some trends and stuff like that thinking that like, oh, we don't do that. Whereas like, with the idea of gaining an audience, it doesn't really— yeah, I think it has to be within certain parameters. You want to gain an audience that are gonna like what you're doing going forward, or else they're not going to be any use to you. However, we probably could have been a bit more flexible with that, I think. And I think we could have, we could have lowered some of our filters. We had just had ridiculous filters. What we thought we were doing versus what we were actually doing probably wasn't super based in reality.

Josh: What does that mean?

Zach: Oh, well, you think of it, you think there's a certain— you have to be, you have to, you have to have a certain level of delusion And you think you're changing the game. You think you're being like, you're doing stuff that no one's ever done before. But no, you're not. You're doing the bland, you know, the first idea everyone comes up with.

Josh: Yeah.

Zach: And so I think you just need to relax and have some fun. And if we had pumped stuff out at the beginning, we were pumping stuff out pretty quickly. But if you just had more fun with it and we put it through less restrictions, the amount of ideas we didn't do because we had come up with them independently, but we had remembered that Hamish and Andy had made a similar joke 10 years prior. You know, I'm just like, who cares? We didn't copy them. We know we didn't copy them. Yeah, just do it. In 3 days, no one's going to know anyway. We were going to put a different perspective on it.

Josh: I can— yeah, we can relate to that a lot.

Tommy: Well, yeah, I mean, Hamish and Andy aren't the first guys to do a test of how far you can get on an empty tank of petrol. It's like, I love seeing Hamish and Andy do it. Yeah, yeah, there you go. And so, what about, there's a guy, Jackson O'Doherty, I think he's from Queensland. He recently had his 4 million follower Instagram account taken, wiped from Instagram. And so— Why? Oh, dude, he's gone really hard. He probably breached some code, but— or it was— I mean, he posts some edgy shit. He's got an OnlyFans now. He was a prank guy. And he's living in LA. And so, but that was his livelihood. And so he's gone real hard around that. You don't own your content, you don't own what you— your platforms. Um, what has your experience been coming from radio, where it's obviously a brand within a brand, and then your social channels which are yours? Where does it sit for you and, and your creative stuff?

Zach: Oh well, I think with that instance, and that sucks, I know Tommy, you got your Instagram deleted recently, didn't you? I was thinking that would be—

Tommy: I wish I had an OnlyFans. I mean, I would have given a good storey behind it. I've just got nothing.

Zach: I just got—

Tommy: it was a fucking mistake on their end.

Josh: Yeah.

Zach: Okay. I think just diversify. You should have a backup platform, shouldn't you? There's some that aren't owned by Facebook. So that, yeah, that's a good thing about TikTok. It adds some competition that you can have an audience on. In regards to the radio, we were always pretty good because we never— we did 3 years of, uh, national late nights, and there was never a conflict of what we wanted to do and what the radio station wanted to do. Like, they were happy to let us do what we wanted to do, and those Venn diagrams were like just a circle, basically. We didn't have to do anything we didn't want to do, and, and, um, they didn't want us doing anything. And so we got lucky there. I don't know what we would have done if they wanted us you know, to do something that we didn't really do, maybe like a music-based show. Not just because we couldn't do it, um, I guess in that instance it's just not a good fit, do you know what I mean?

Josh: Do you think, um, uh, that perspective that you've got now around the delusion, do you think the delusion was necessary at the time to get—

Zach: Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Tommy: I did—

Zach: we— when I was a teenager, I wanted to be a stand-up, so in my late teenage years I did a bit of, quite a bit of stand-up comedy actually at the time. And, uh, you have to have so much delusion to get on stage. You have to think that you're really funny. And then looking back on the jokes now, like, I wasn't funny at all. But if you don't have that delusion, you'll never start. It's, uh, I heard Malcolm Gladwell talk about it recently, and he was quoting someone else, so this is like a third-hand quote, but it's, uh, he was talking about a helpful level of delusion. And he was saying in relationships that you have, there's a helpful level of delusion. When they compared how a partner reported the positive attributes and the negative attributes of their partner versus reality, they were skewed. But you have to have that, you know, a helpful level of delusion so that, uh, you can get along together, I guess. And it's a similar thing when you're making content. If you don't think that it's important, then you're never going to make it.. But then with a bit of perspective, you realise it was never important.

Tommy: Yeah. Rob Lowe, who's a famous actor, he's probably like mid-50s now. He was saying recently just about acting and how it's almost a similar delusion. He didn't get told by anybody. So, there's no one in his circle early days that said, you're crazy for giving this a crack. And so, the fact that he didn't have the external voices saying, Dude, did you know that 95% of people in the Actors Guild can't support themselves as actors? And so to think you're going to be a small percentage, you're crazy. And so there's almost like not having any of that. And then delusion's almost a point. So to be delusional is usually an unconscious thought, right? And so it's hindsight. You see the delusion in how you talk to somebody. It's like, I can't believe I fucking asked that. That's delusional. And so, yeah, and so how would you find, how would you create delusion when it is conscious? Do you think it's a, I'll just give it a crack or forget the thoughts in my mind as a creator?

Zach: I think the delusion is, I'm good at this. But eventually you do get good at it.

Josh: Yeah.

Zach: Do you know what I mean? And so you're, you kind of, so I think the delusion at the start is people are going to want to hear what I have to say. But then as you get better, people do want to hear what you have to say. Say, or you might develop your ability to tell your story. You might be— you might develop your ability to have a voice. And so I think the delusion gets smaller and smaller as you hone your craft to a point that you get to a level where you're not delusional anymore. You are— or at least the delusion is less. Maybe your abilities versus how you see yourself are a lot closer. And so I think the delusion is more at the start. Like, I'm quite confident now that I— we can do a radio show that's, uh, you know, at least not out of place, you know, is at least of a quality that is as good as a lot of other things that are around. Um, but at the start, man, we made some bad stuff.

Josh: But there is something in the, um, everyone's making it up. And so, yeah, 100%. And so on the writing thing, like, I find it interesting, like There's a level of delusion in writing. Like, I find the process of writing, it's something I've always wanted to do and to lean into. There is definitely a delusion that's needed in the writing process because it's saying, not only do I have good thoughts, but they justify synthesising them into this, onto the page. The—

Zach: So, we don't work in an industry that has any qualification, really. And so if you're a teacher, you do 3 years of uni or 4 years of uni, and then you get a piece of paper that says, I'm a teacher. If you're a doctor, the same type of thing. We are just— it's you say that, you do it, and you do it. Yeah, people can— you can look at a product and have a critique of it, but when you say writing, there's no— there's no barrier to entry at all. You just have to start writing. And then the thing that's actually scary is that the critique of the product probably isn't as objective as you think it is. And so, like, all you need to do is convince one person that it's a good idea, one person, and then, and they then have to convince their people. And so what I've learned from getting into radio, and then also our radio show ending, is like, we benefited significantly from circumstances outside our control to get into radio. And then we were, uh, we were, we faced consequences that were beyond our control, uh, well, loosely beyond our control with the show ending. There was exterior circumstances that we had no control over. And so I reflect on that, I go, well, did we do anything? Did we luck into it and then luck out of it? There is so much to be said about, uh, we think that these people who are making decisions visions are objective, but they're not.

Josh: But don't you think that that's part of the, the system? So for instance, I think that's the pushback that I have in some of these industries, is because it's like, it's all about, um, you know, ranking people or create— or the— even like within the radio context, the, the top content directors or the this or the that. And it's all like, um, it's just— what purpose do you think that those things, you know, look—

Zach: yeah, they, they, the, the reason they're making them is because those websites need content. That's the, the only reason. They just— I wouldn't be surprised if they're just putting names into a hat and pulling them out. They serve no purpose whatsoever. They are not rooted in any reality. They are so far from objective, it's not funny. However, they do hold weight. They do, they do, uh, contribute to how people look at things. And that's the crazy thing. If you, if you were able to manipulate the way that thing— these people are seen, or how your brand is seen. That's, that's, that's the, the big test. The difference between someone looking on you positively and someone looking on you negatively, and your brand or your, or your show, is so minute. It's so minute. And it could be based on a whole lot of different things. My theory is that a lot of these people who are making decisions have certain feelings they can't— they don't know why they have certain feelings about certain talent. And then they look towards those things to justify their decisions. So they look towards data sets about how big their followings are, they look towards how they rank on certain rankings and whatever to justify a decision that's actually already made. And that is based on a feeling that they either like you or don't like you. And that's the same as like market research. Oh, like this, there's so many flaws. In the way that they go about doing that research.

Josh: I mean, there's not much confi— I think that the interesting thing with what you're saying is because you are— I feel like I'm in a similar position around we have a real confidence in how we feel that the system is, but unfortunately, people that are on the top of the system, there's not many, there's not many incentives for them to call out the system as being completely rubbish and made up. And so then what ends up happening is you have young people who, or people who are new to an industry, who look up and they say, oh, this is, this is the ladder, or this is the process. Where the reality is, what makes you successful and what makes Collective Noun and everything that you've done successful is because that you have gone well beyond an industry or a set of rules, and you're creating something that's bigger than that. I just— yeah, I mean, is that something that has, has come to you over the time of being in there? Has there been any pivotal moment where you've realized, hang on, this system's actually full of shit?

Zach: Uh, the pivotal moment probably was that not everyone is working towards the goal of making a good product. And so, you know, in The Big Short, when Steve Carell's character is sitting on top of the roof at the end, and so the whole movie he's been trying to give people a heads up that the stock market's going to crash. And then he realises at the end, he's sitting on top of this roof and he's having a coffee and he has this lightbulb moment where he goes, oh, they know, but they don't care because they're going to benefit from it. I was working under the illusion that everyone in these companies— and it's just, it's just a fact of, of just how companies work. It's like, so they, they purposely do things, for example, on social media that are counterintuitive to their goals. But it's because that person who's making that decision isn't going to be there in 2 years' time. They're going to be in a different social media job in 6 months. And so they have a goal that they need to meet in the immediate next 3 weeks or the next month. They have a KPI, so they're going to use shortcuts to achieve that. And that's counterintuitive to the long-term goals of that brand or that show or that company. And, and so that was a big lightbulb moment for me. I was like very frustrated with, um, how things worked. And then I thought, oh, it's, it's because we don't all have the same goal here. Because that individual, um, their incentive is to artificially inflate numbers so that they can meet their KPIs for the month. Because they're not going to be here in 2 years, they're not going to be here in 5 years, so they don't care if they're screwing over truth seekers.

Josh: And I guess, and but also they've created a new truth that like a lot of them believe their own bullshit because it's like, oh, they know what they know.

Zach: And so is that playing the game?

Tommy: Is that playing the game at that point? If— because yeah, I'm not playing that one, that, that game that you're mentioning.

Zach: Well, because it's gonna like— it's just such a short-term game. It's, it's not going to help you in the long run. And that's why you guys have been— I think the, the most clever thing you guys have done is the 10-year commitment, is because you're slowly building something over a long period of time. You're not going to take shortcuts that are going to screw you over in the long term. Like, remember when everyone was building their social media pages 4 years ago and we were— well, not we, but there was a lot of people, uh, just ripping memes that other people had made and there was no curation towards the type of audience you're trying to build. They now have these massive pages that mean nothing. They can't get 10 likes on their original content. They have half a million likes on the page, they won't get 10 likes on a video. It means nothing. And so they've all screwed themselves over.

Josh: Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I mean, TJ, I feel like I could just keep going.

Tommy: How do you feel like the encouragement within— what does that do to you when you have these realisations about the way it's been? As a creator, it can sting because you're putting your blood, sweat, and creative tears into it. Where do you land?

Zach: I think it's important to have things that you control. And so whether it's personal accounts or in our case, we had, uh, you know, I've got a personal TikTok now, but before that I wasn't really making any content under my own name. But, you know, we had Collective Now known different things. And so therefore you have an avenue despite other people's decisions. And, um, and they can be, it can be mutually beneficial. And ours was really mutually beneficial. With the radio station we worked for, helped our social media, we helped their social media. And so there are ways that it can work well together. It was just why— realising that just helped me, um, in my own head. I was, you know, it wasn't sending myself crazy. I couldn't figure out why people were making decisions that were going to screw themselves over. And then it, you know, that realisation helped me just come to peace with that. I was like, oh, it just come— once you understand it, you're like, oh, I understand what people are trying to do. And that's, that's what I would do also if I was in that situation.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then alignment and having a team— you have these strong feelings and they're constantly evolving. How do you keep aligned within a team?

Zach: Uh, yeah, that's really hard. I remember we spoke to, uh, Tony Martin a few years ago, and he said most groups dissolve, or most comedy teams dissolve, because there's a disagreement over the, the, uh, the distribute, uh, distribution of labor, basically how much everyone's contributing. And so I think you just have to make sure you all have the same goals. I don't know how often you guys cheque in. How often do you cheque in on the 10 years? Are you always like, are we still good for 10 years?

Josh: I think like the, the thing is we use it as like a filter system. And so if we— I think that we are all accountable to— if we were to do something, by having it nice and clear, it's like show filter. Filters where we're saying, oh, is this— is this thing— is— so for instance, for me, it's like the social media stuff. If we're playing a short-term game, if we're like, okay, we want to fucking, uh, have some sort of Joe Rogan purchase, which is like delusion, and where a lot of people fall flat with podcasting, they think that they're going to be able to sell their podcast for millions of dollars. Um, if, if that was the game we're playing, then you would say, okay, Josh, you need to be on social media and we need you posting 6 times to your personal Instagram every single week. The 10-year rule is so— or, you know, the 10-year goal is so ingrained in everything that we do that it takes the pressure out of some of this stuff.

Zach: And what would happen if something changed? And do you guys talk about that? Like, let's say hypothetically hypothetically, I don't know, Tommy, I'm just going to use you as an example here because you have a child now. Let's say you have 2 more children and you go, look guys, I'm— you guys could be raking in $1 million a year. I got no idea how much money you're making, but let's just say hypothetically you're like, I need to make more money. I can't dedicate as much time to building something from the ground up. Do you have like a policy about how you're going to bring that up and stuff? I'm just interested.

Tommy: Well, I think the The reality of someone who would turn it around and say that has probably missed the point, or they're on some journey they haven't realised what they're signing up for. And so the, the 10-year thing is an understanding. It's— it ingrains in you. So I wouldn't turn around and say that because I wouldn't be in this part of it now if that was going to be the case.

Josh: It's a joint responsibility. I think that that's the other thing too. So it's like we, um The filter that we're all using is the betterment of the thing that we're building. The great thing about the Daily Talk Show specifically is it doesn't, it doesn't actually day to day, it doesn't require a huge amount of labor. What we're talking about is an hour and a half a day of our time. And so that 10-year part is the non-negotiable, that showing up and doing that. And that's, it's not a crazy amount of time. The bigger question around Big Media Company and where we take that, that is something that transforms every single week depending on what's happening. And so it goes from being a client services business where we're charging clients to make content for them, to, uh, focusing more on a network style arrangement where we're bringing in other shows. And so Yeah, I think that it's— Tommy and I are very aligned in regards to what that needs. And the daily talk show is probably— The daily talk show is the reason why the business exists. I don't think our business would exist if we didn't have the show.

Zach: And do you guys deal with conflict well? Do you guys have much conflict in the group?

Josh: I think like the start— In the team. In the team, I think that like Tommy and I had conflict, you know, weekly when we were getting started. I think like the first probably 150, 200 episodes, um, there is zero— there's, there's not many much expectation around the first 200. But I'd say, um, you know, I, I went away for 4 months traveling. We did the show every single weekday during that time. And coming back to going from having our separate businesses to having a joint venture, all of a sudden everything was up for conversation, debate, and we put in the time, we lent into it, which is like, voice the concern now, have the conversation now. Let's rather than— and so I think that where Tommy and I have landed, when you have something like COVID and you have stage 4, the learning for us now is distributing the the knowledge, the awareness, the understanding that we have as a partnership, and being able to distribute that across the rest of the business. So that's where we spend our time, is it's like Tommy and I are very aligned, and now it's making sure that we're communicating that to the rest of the team.

Zach: That's good, pulling in the same direction.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And what about you and Dom? Are you, um, do you chat through direction, vision?

Zach: Yeah, well, probably early on, similar to you guys, probably we— when we first got the national radio show, I think that was— we didn't recalibrate because that was a goal for a long time.

Josh: And so you got Michael as well. So there's sort of the 3, but there's the 2 that are mainly— you and Dom are on air. Was that like a decision that had to be made as well in the early days?

Zach: Well, Michael was very— it was very obvious that he was technically minded, so he was never in front of the camera or front of mic, so there was no debate over that. Um, yeah, so that was all, that was all good. I think, um, we, the, the, we, the radio and the video content and the relationship to each other was where there was some conflict and where we had to decide what that relationship was and who was responsible for it. Um, because it was always— I always really liked the video stuff more. Uh, we both liked radio, but Dom was probably less video focused, and that probably still is the, um, the, the breakdown. Any conflict came from unmet expectations, and so we just had to recalibrate what the expectations were. And make sure that we all agreed on them.

Josh: And so if you're working a delusion like you're talking about, so it's already hard when you're working in delusion, then you have a delusion with a team. So you were talking about the, the obsession around the, the format or the, you know, the, the nitty-gritty, which I can very much relate to. It's like, for me, it's like search engine optimization and long tail and how we're going to do all of this sort of stuff, right? Like, it's it's very, very similar. Um, so then when you're working in with Delusions, how do you align Delusion? So Dom potentially putting too much emphasis on radio, you putting too much emphasis, emphasis on video, probably somewhere in between?

Zach: Yeah, it's just making sure that everyone's satisfied with the agreement. I think it's important to have and to constantly update what the working agreement is, how much people are contributing to different different things. And, um, um, right now with that, um, there were probably times in the last 3 and a half years where we weren't happy with how that breakdown had happened. And so it's about having honest conversations. And I, I, you're gonna have conflict working in creative teams together. Teams who say that they don't fight, I'm like, well, I don't know, I would question the content you're making then because is you're not really pushing it too hard. So, it's about how you can resolve that conflict quickly and effectively and in a way that everyone's happy with. And I think we've got much better at that. We've also got older, you know, that helps. You get more experience. Radio is like, it's hard because it's a very— we were alone. There was no one else in the building. So, there's 3 of us, it's 1 in the morning, night after night. And we, we were like, you know, in our 20s. It's, it's, it's a learning curve.

Josh: And so there's something that happens, it seems like, with a lot of these teams. I think, um, uh, The Thinker Girls was sort of in a similar predicament where it's like you sort of— there comes to a natural, uh, ending of something. And then, so for instance, for them it was their radio show, and then I know that they spent a bunch of time developing other things, and there's this hard decision where it's— you've put in all of this effort, there's all of this investment that's happened, and now there's a crossroad. But for, for many, the crossroad isn't determined based on the internal decision of the team, and it's an external force around if a TV network picks this up if this does this, if this— if, if these people pick us, we will then continue as a team. I just, I wonder, I think Tommy, Tommy and I, where we've landed with the daily talk show, I think that a pivotal moment is we can't, we can't make sure— he's gonna have to go very shortly. That's voting. Um, the, uh, we've never had to make a decision that's based on that external factor where it's like, if we don't get these people picking us, we're fucked because we're picking ourselves. How do you reconcile that side of things?

Zach: Uh, you gotta have time, and that's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really hard for them to go, to go show to show to show if you want to stay in the same team. And if you, uh, but if you are happy for there to be some time in between, I think it's, it'll be a bit easier, more achievable. And so, uh, it's an expectation thing again. So if you have the, at the end when it looked like that we're going to wrap up the show last year Um, I had the expectation that we wouldn't do a show together for a while, and then we would pick it up again once we found someone interested. Um, whereas I think, uh, Dom's idea was that we would continue straight away afterwards, which I would, I would have loved to, but I just didn't know how realistic that was.

Josh: And so the realism, like, a bit being realistic— if you're, um, delusional Why choose to be realistic then?

Zach: Or is that going to be bullshit?

Josh: Or is your delusion?

Tommy: Yeah, no, that's fucking real.

Josh: And so, that's what happens, right? Like, I guess that's to your point of what you're talking about, which is like the system, whether it's, you know, buying a place or having kids or whatever it is, those things force us to have what would be perceived as reality based on the system.

Zach: I think the delusion is more around the content, not around their career decisions. And so, particularly when you're trying to be funny or you think of yourself as being funny, that's where the delusion is. That's probably what I'm referring to, is like the idea that this is funny because a lot of the times, even very successful comedians, your hit rate is nowhere near 100%. And so, you constantly have to be— have some level of delusion that this is going to be funny or I have the confidence to try this out. Whereas around the decisions you make for your careers, it's a lot more dangerous to be delusional around that at this stage in my life anyway, because is it not based on delusion though?

Josh: Like, if you are a content person and you're playing in that space and you're making decisions based on what you're doing with content, does it not— is there not a little bit of overlap that's happening?

Zach: So what you can do after a while, and this is where the delusion and reality come closer and closer together is that you have a body of data or you have years of experience that you can compare things to. And so, you can go, well, you know, this was a situation we were in then and we were able to get out of it there. And so, you have things to compare it to, like hard evidence of things that have happened in the past or hard data, like we've made this type of content and it went well, whereas you don't have any of that at the start. And so, you have no hard things that you're comparing to. Whereas as you go along, and so, uh, I, I'm a lot more confident comparing myself and my abilities to the marketplace now, and I have, I have new confidence, uh, and I hope that that's, that, that's based in more of a reality than delusion these days, that I would be able to, you know, do another radio show, for example. Do you know what I mean?

Josh: Yeah, or you could— I guess the other element is the longer you sit in the delusion, the more truths that you find within the delusion. So you're just, you're cementing the initial— like, it's a, it's a version of the cherry picking in that, like, what you, what we're talking about with the, the systems and the industries, you get better and better at, at finding solutions that paint the narrative or the delusion that works. So it feels less and less of a delusion, but you're actually further along in that. Does that make sense?

Zach: Well, I think what the delusion proves as well is the illusion of talent and how important talent is. You know, Jerry Seinfeld talks about the fact that a lot of comedians who are making a lot of money aren't the funniest people. It's just they work the hardest and they stick at it the most. And so, we— there's a delusion that talent is really important. Talent's obviously a factor, but there's significant other factors. And so therefore, if you— if you— the delusion of talent is if you think, 'I'm talented, I have to push on, and that's why I'm successful in the end,' you're going to be successful maybe, but maybe the reality was that you weren't successful because of your talent, you were successful because you kept at it.

Josh: Yeah.

Zach: Do you understand what I mean?

Josh: Yeah.

Zach: So the delusion is, is, is, is misplacing the factors of why you succeeded.

Josh: Um, yeah, TJ, how do you— yeah, what do you, what do you think?

Tommy: No, I— yeah, I agree. I think it's— but then it's always hindsight that you could look back and make a decision and realise that it was delusion or not. And so, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, like Jerry Seinfeld saying the— what, what do you think on Jerry Seinfeld saying that and where he is as a comedian?

Zach: There's no doubt he's great, but is he someone who works super hard on it? Well, it's like we have this idea that if you're a successful comedian, you're the funniest. But there's a lot of, you know, you could be a really good business person and just know how to write jokes, you know what I mean? Like, you have to have a certain level of ability. But if you watch enough stand-up, you know, they're not all great. Like, there's a lot of people making a good living who aren't that good. The same thing in any industry, probably. And the same thing in, like, look at us. We've The last 3 years we made a living and we're not the best radio show, but we were willing to commit to it and work hard at it. And we have a certain level of ability, a certain level of talent.

Josh: So, is that not talent? Is talent then about the doing versus like focusing on the actual thing? Like, is it? Yeah, I wonder if the talent is actually in line with the, how do you put this? So, part of the talent is actually like the doing bit rather than what the content is.

Zach: Yeah, 100%. And so, like, remember in high school where you'd have people, and I did this myself, but you'd go, "I got a C in that test and I didn't even try." But you wouldn't try because you're afraid of failing, right? And so, people would, you know, you hear this said about people, they're like, "Oh, they're really smart, but they didn't try in school." Yeah. And, and you go, well, were they really that smart then? Because wouldn't— if you were smart, wouldn't you try? And so, but what they're saying is they, they have a natural intelligence, but isn't a part of intelligence applying yourself? And so it's— I think it's just how we define those things. So you're saying, Josh, that, you know, maybe being really— maybe I'm a great singer and people think that's for talent, but are you saying that that when we say talent, we should also incorporate, uh, the ability— yeah, getting on stage, the ability to sell yourself, the ability to market yourself, the ability to keep at it night after night when it's really hard to do. Is that what you're saying? We need to broaden the definition of talent?

Josh: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that the talent— that, yeah, the talent comes from— if you are a talented writer but you're not writing, are you— is that like talent is— there's an element of runs on the board, or there's Um, actually, talent, I feel like, only comes to fruition when it's being done. And so unless you are doing it, unless you are— and so that's what, like, the closest thing to become talented is the process of doing.

Zach: We— something I'd say all the time is like, as when you work in teams, and I'm sure you guys do it yourself, is you look at your peers around you and critique their— and whenever there was a negative— whenever there was negative thoughts about people making videos or a radio show around us, "Oh, that wasn't very good," I always used to think, "Well, something's better than nothing. What did we do on that? We didn't do anything." And so, like, instantly, because they made something, it was better than what we did. And so, I think there's something really to be said about just making something and putting it out there and continuously doing it. And to go back to the delusion, the delusion is, you know, when it gets 10 likes, somehow motivating yourself to do it again.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very true.

Tommy: I love it, Zach. Thank you for coming on the show, buddy. It's been great talking to you.

Zach: Pleasure, guys. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Josh: Uh, would love to have you back on as well. And, uh, you're doing your own, uh, videos on YouTube as well if you search Zach Mandra on YouTube, you'll, you'll come up there.

Zach: Oh yeah, I'm probably not ready to promote that publicly. There's a high level of delusion there.

Josh: Perfect, you got it. Awesome. It's a Daily Talk Show. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.