A Life Outside Of Work

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 811.

Tommy: What's happening, guys? What is going on? JJ, you've got your nice beanie on, keeping warm.

Josh: I am. Uh, can I just say, for what was not a great week last week, I was feeling down. I'm feeling good this week. So if anyone's feeling down It can look up. Make yourself a coffee, just fucking ride it out, read a book, you'll be all good. Yep. Yeah, great.

Tommy: I mean, it was last week, very uncertain times. I definitely felt it by the end of the week. It's like, wow, that was like, huh, that was a week, wasn't it?

Josh: But I think for a lot of people, I think for a lot of people, I think that I was potentially getting ready or grieving what was about to come, whereas I think that for a lot of people, maybe they're just realizing, okay, what am I doing? Especially in Victoria, those announcements were made. People are trying to work out, can I work, can't I work? Is my whole industry closed?

Tommy: Yeah, you know what, I do, I did think that about you. I was like, maybe just slightly earlier in that process of feeling it because—

Josh: Early adopter to, you know, fucking depression. I was doing it before everyone else. I was doing it before everyone else.

Tommy: Early adopter. Mental health, early adopter.

Josh: That's why I won't go to see a psych is because unless I can do it early, unless I can say I was one of the the first people doing it. Yeah, I was one of the first people using the Fitbit, by the way, and I, I was very active in saying that it wasn't going to go anywhere.

Tommy: No, I mean, second lockdown, when we were back in the office, there was— and you were on that high of yours. I think if there was no change and we kept on moving forward, I think it would have been, um, you know, probably continued. But so what you're talking about is external changes affecting our internal state, and so the —there's no doubt that external changes to what's happening in Victoria are shifting people's internal states. So, and it's a funny one because usually you're like, don't let your external, you know, shift your internal too much because some stuff you can't control, but there's just a reality. I mean, last night I was feeling— so for me—

Josh: What's your percentage? What are you at the moment?

Tommy: Oh, I make a strong 70, which is like, I think that's good. I think if you were operating at a strong 70 most days rather than going 110 one day, fucking 30 the next, I'd rather— You're talking about me each day.

Josh: Are you saying that I'm a little bit more of a sprint car?

Tommy: I even go, yeah, I even go there. Um, strong 70, but in a whole lot of uncertainty too.

Josh: Is a strong 70 not just a 75?

Tommy: No, no, no, because 75s get giving it too much. Strong 70 is just like—

Josh: I reckon it's just a 70.

Tommy: Yeah, no, it's definitely just a 70.

Josh: Or it's a 71, maybe it's a 71% and then it gives you a little bit more.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a 71. I just don't understand how you can have—

Josh: when you— when we're talking percentages, I'm uncomfortable with having strong versions. So like the idea that one 70 is different to another 70, it confuses me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so what happened last night?

Tommy: It's the number, but then it's your attitude towards that number. That's the only way you get to a strong 70 is if you're just optimistic about being at 70.

Josh: Okay, well, yeah, I think that's a— yeah, that's an 80 move on a 70 feeling.

Tommy: Yeah, true, but it's also I'm— I could be on the up. A low 70 is you saying it's probably 60 by the end of the day. I could be on 40 by the end of the day, but I'm on 70 with the chance of being at 80 by the end of the day. Um, this is—

Josh: that's where we're at. This is like borderline. I remember hearing borderline as a kid. Do you know what borderline— how do you describe— if someone says, oh, they're borderline, what does borderline mean?

Tommy: Borderline, they're at the border of something. So, the border, you know, mental health borderline could be, I'm borderline— fuck, I mean, this is pretty dark— borderline schizophrenic. I could imagine that being a phrase used. So, you're you're struggling severely, but you're not at the stage where it's fallen into psychosis. It could be like, I don't know, that's just a, a non-educated explanation.

Josh: Well, I always thought of borderline because in school they would always say you're borderline failing, you know, um, certain subjects. But I thought scraping in borderline actually meant that you're slightly under at the moment. But I'm just looking because that's what they would say. It's like borderline is, um It was— It's not good, but borderline was sort of, you're tipping it on the side of failing. But I'm just actually looking up, it says the adjective borderline, only just acceptable in quality or as belonging to a category. References may be requested in borderline cases. Yeah. So, I'm not— So, I don't think that it's what the teachers were saying.

Tommy: And now who's schooling them? Idiots. Josh Janson on his podcast. Yeah, exactly. I was thinking about that sort of early adopter of your feeling. So last night for me, what was I feeling? It was uncertainty with Bodhi. Like, I take Bodhi to daycare today and I say to the teachers, what's going on? When is it? Is it closing Wednesday? And they're like, no, no, no, Thursday..

Josh: And they're like, "We don't really know." Which, that actually makes sense based on they're saying what? Everything's changing 11:59 PM on Wednesday.

Tommy: Wednesday, which, yeah. I mean, this is— I was saying to you yesterday before they made the announcements how people love to be first to have the information, whether it be on Facebook, Instagram, or the news outlets. TikTok. I mean, anywhere to distribute information.

Josh: But if you get a dance first, if you get a dance out first of the— Stage 4, that's some serious numbers you can be getting.

Tommy: But it is some badge of like, I knew it first, I heard from blah blah blah first, which it's— it's all that can do is bring confusion because it might not be. It's like unconfirmed reports. It's an unconfirmed report, which means there's going to be a confirmed report that's released. Yeah, it's so— it's so frustrating because that— I mean, that just adds to the the, uh, the confusion when you're hearing all these different things.

Josh: Do you think that also one thing that I've been thinking about, even talking to my parents last night, um, just in general when I'm speaking to people, there's a sense that most people when they get the news, they're always trying to find the out, or it's like the loophole, or why it doesn't— why -based on, like I couldn't believe how many people, 'cause my mum was saying, "Oh, you know, Josh, you and I, we've always been good with rules. You know, we stick to the rules." And she was sort of applauding me for not leaving the house, you know, in 2 weeks or whatever, or going out once. But don't you get that sense that it seems like we are promoting the wrong thing in leadership where you can see the temptation or the badge of honour around how people are weaselling their way to still be able to do their business?

Tommy: Oh yeah, and I mean, so even another thought is, um, this is our second severe lockdown in Victoria and some people push through the first. And so then there could be a thinking of, well, we push through the first, which meant we could keep operating and make money, which means we can survive the second being forced to lock down. And so then the badge of honour is we, we did the wrong thing at the start, or we, we didn't listen to the rules to start with. And so then it gets to this point, you're like, well, if we didn't "If we listened to the rules last time, we wouldn't be able to make it through this time." And so, that's like another school of thinking.

Josh: But you're right, Finn. But I guess that part of it is everyone's context is different. For us, it's like we don't have ridiculous expenses. We have a lease, we have a couple of employees, all of that sort of thing. And so, but if you— the JobKeeper, the things that have come out from the government, it gets us to at least a baseline where we're not like haemorrhaging cash. And then so it means that if we took off 6 weeks or we weren't doing client stuff, then we would be in a similar position than what we are today. Whereas I guess for some people, if they're in the stage of you know, a million plus a year revenue, or, you know, that sort of 6-digit every single month from a revenue perspective, and you've got a bunch of other things moving potentially. And, and also you have, like, we, we rent, we don't have crazy, um, we don't have crazy lifestyles that we need to uphold. But I guess for some people, if you are, if you have a company and you're expecting to take some executive you know, executive salary every single month, and all of a sudden now you can't do that. I guess that's where the pain is for people as well.

Tommy: Yeah, and that's where the mental health crisis comes into play. It's like, it is the people that were flying, that were probably at a strong 90, uh, strong 90, are feeling like a low 30. And so then that's— why do you think that is? Oh, no, no, if you had the rug pulled out from under your corporate, your corporate money, if you're winning the game, if you're winning the system, the system's being fucked.

Josh: And so anyone that was really— but then you got people like Jeff Bezos who it's like, uh, they're making heaps of cash.

Tommy: He's all right, I mean, he's fine. We got a lovely email from Gronk Emma, who— not, not, uh, Emma from Queensland, another Emma. She said, um, just finished listening to, uh, what, 8, 10, and she said, you have really inspired me, JJ. Have called a bunch of— she's culled a bunch of her noisy people on Facebook and Insta that are not helping her mental health at the moment, as well as setting up screen time locks on my phone so I can't be distracted by other noise during the day. My youngest has just started school, and instead of embracing this time that I now have and devoting time to figuring out what the next step is, which is a minefield in itself. As I've just turned 40 and feels like a significantly important decision, I'm wasting the days on social media and I hate myself for it. So cull is done, locks are in place, and I'm now off to Bunnings to get some stuff for projects around the home that I wanted to do for ages. So thank you, Josh, for the inspiration. And that's great. That came off the back of you sort of identifying that, yeah, you probably need to sort of, you know, pull back a bit. It's just simple. You get a 20-hour day.

Josh: 20-hour day on social media. 20-hour day on the phone. But it's just, I reckon part of it is having really low expectations. I think I've got such high expectations of everything, myself, everyone around me. And like, so what about if you like—

Tommy: Where does that come from? If you just— Where does that come from? Like, I know it's a natural reaction or state for you. What is it if you were to sort of dive deep?

Josh: I think that part of it is because I wasn't— I think that there's a few things, like I wasn't great at school, but I was very good at all the other stuff, the extracurricular activities. And so, I think from the age of probably 8 or 9, teachers would say, "Oh, Josh is going to be somewhere." Like, I remember my mum only— Actually, yeah, no, I got a Facebook— This is right. I got a Facebook message about 4 years ago. I had given my grade 3 teacher or grade 3 or grade 4 teacher, my signature, and I like, I signed it and I wrote a note or whatever. I said, oh, you know, I'll be famous one day, here, hold on to this. Anyway, my mum had, was at the shops and saw this teacher that she hadn't seen in 15 years or whatever, and she pulled out of her wallet the signature that I gave her, which is fucking ridiculous, which is ridiculous. And then she'd actually, that would have been probably to like when I was just finishing year 12 or whatever. And then just recent, like probably 3 or 4 years ago, she Facebook messaged me like, still got it. And so I think there is, which is so nice. But I think the thing is, I wasn't— in saying all of that, I was a shit student. As I said, I was like borderline with like schoolwork. But there was that sense that, uh, I was very focused on specific things.. And so, I think that that got applauded. That was a big thing. And so, for me now, I think that so much of what I've done has been against the system or gut instinct that sometimes the gut instinct is in the same part as anxiety or whatever. And so, you're spending so much time thinking, "Oh, fuck. I need to be doing this right now." Or even I think with all the old, like I was blogging in a big way, sort of 2010, 2011. And then I think about if I'd stuck to that, what it would have done. And so, all of these learnings have then brought me to this point where it's like, I know that we just need to keep going, keep going, keep going. But I know that that can be a bit exhausting. So, is it—

Tommy: So, there's proving people right or proving people wrong. A lot of people are out to prove people wrong because they might have been told that you won't amount to something. I know, like for me, teachers were very— Uh, they weren't supportive of me. I was probably a little piece of shit, c-u-n-t. Um, but I definitely had that noise of, oh, you'll be famous, or something like, which is the most, uh, non-productive. It doesn't mean anything at that point. And if anything, uh, the kids that are probably told you're gonna be famous when you're older end up on Bachelor in Paradise or something like that because they're just fucking outrageous. Um, because there's no skill involved in just what's fame? There's no skill involved in fame if that's just what— you're just famous. You'd rather be famous for a skill. Yeah, it doesn't mean, you know, there's— it's nothing. Ivan Milat's famous. And so I reckon I've definitely had the— not the prove you're wrong, but like, you know, you doubted me and I'm going to put in the effort. But it has definitely— for me, it's not my driving force. I'm more out to prove myself right on the things I think I can do. And so then I transfix on the things I think I can do and get good at them. And then, I don't know, there's the contentness that isn't relying on outside noise. But I think early-day driving force, uh, proving people wrong is somewhat powerful to get started, but you soon realise that it's not it's not the fuel. It's not the fuel that keeps the engine burning, you know, the engine firing for a long time.

Josh: Well, I think that even I look at the, you know, people say you're not your work and don't be defined by your work. I think that if I even look back to school days, everything was associated to me making videos. And so the way that I— my friendship group was based on who will be in videos. And yeah, and so I think that that was such a, um, defining thing constantly, um, that yeah, I think I definitely have, have a strong connection with my work. And potentially I think that, um, I'm trying to move away. I don't know what that looks like, but trying to have an identity outside of being a podcast or video or media or creator. I mean, what is the—

Tommy: what is beyond the work? So if we're just to dive into you're not your work, which a lot of people— and, and I think the trap is if someone's working a 70-hour week for a corporate business, their life is consumed by their work, which could be the result feeling like your work is your life because it's taking up a heap of percentage of your time. And so, but then it's like, so for you, so let's just go for creatives at the moment, creatives that live and breathe what they do. They've worked out how to do— find something that they are passionate about, that they can sit for 5 hours and feel like it's 1 hour, feel like it's 30 minutes. Um, how do you not make it your work? And what is If it isn't your work, what is that? Just give me that scenario. What is, what is not your work? If it's not your work, what is, what are you?

Josh: Well, so I think that the 'you are your work' is a common narrative which within society, and so I think that the natural thing is that people would find the other molds. And so for instance, being a family man is another societal mould or a narrative that you could play out. So I think that the the common thing would be to be like, if you're not your work, you are your family. And so for Bri and I not wanting to have kids and being pretty sort of, like, I think that I'm pretty pedantic on not wanting to do whatever the system's telling me to do, or just thinking about like, why, why do I need to do that? Like, what's the point of this? And so For me, it's understanding the curiosity bit. So it's like, okay, as a person, I'm very curious. I like learning different things. Um, uh, I think that for, for a lot of people, it's, um, they go into like exercise or whatever, they go into, you know, F45, or they go to CrossFit, or they do that sort of thing. There's, there's only, I feel like, a few moulds And what I'm wary of is not falling into the one-dimensional mould that's available to me. So by me saying, okay, I'm not going to do this, or I'm not going to make my whole life my work, I'm very wary at the, uh, natural sort of reaction to then look at the other common molds, which doesn't actually fix the problem. Does that make sense?

Tommy: Yeah, no, definitely. And I, I then think you could probably hone in on the, the productive nature or the resistance to not wanting to, you know, the kids thing. It's like everyone has kids, I don't want to have kids. If you look at the, the objection or the resistance to those things, why do you think they come up? Is it— do you think you have forced yourself to have that feeling around those things and that resistance, or is it naturally you're like— because there's people out there that probably don't have that same feeling of, I push back on status quo, I push back on things, and they just feel it, but it doesn't— it's no energy out of them because they're like, yeah, nah, nah.

Josh: And so what you're def— what, what you're trying to define is what, what is actually— if you're pushing back on something you are not in control necessarily. You, if you are the pushback guy, you are just, you are still using the external moulds to shape who you are because it's like, well, yeah, does that make sense?

Tommy: I think, yeah, I think pushback requires an energy for you not to like. So I think about what people who don't like tomatoes haven't really decided that they don't like tomatoes, they just don't like them. How do we decide? We don't decide on any of this stuff. Like, it is there is an unclear nature to the things we do and don't like. And so what I'm saying is, is it, is it a conscious decision on your behalf to not like these things, which requires an energy, and you don't know if you do that you might actually like them?

Josh: No, I think that it's like a sto— like, what are the storeys that we're all telling? I think, and I think that that's the challenging bit right now, is because a lot of the storeys that we've told ourselves about why we do what we do and who we are is based on a system which for a number of reasons is being shifted dramatically across the world. Um, so for me, for me it comes down to, um, so I'm not like a, uh, so I think about like, so using the wedding, getting married type of thing. So deconstructing that— I believe in commitment. I believe in, like, I think there's, there's value in saying, hey, like, we're together forever, that type of thing. There's value in that. The bit that I, um, have sort of pushed back on is the, the, um, the wasting of, uh, of money through doing the big weddings or inviting a bunch of people to, to do that. And then I think that the common thing is, um, people will then turn to another mold. And so they'll say, oh, you could elope, or you could do this, or you could do that. And so you need to then like, okay, so we need to create a trip to do this thing. Or— and so, yeah, what am I, what am I trying to say, or what am I thinking? I think it's like I think that it's beyond the pushback bit for me, and it's very much being in tune with— I think that I'm always looking ahead. So, I'm looking at like, okay, what is this? And I also feel like I put a lot of weight onto the decisions I make. And so, I think about if we were to have a kid, what sort of dad I would want to be. And so, I think that it's, and I don't think that I could give it everything. Like, I think that I'm doing too many other things and I'm like, have to do so much other work to work that out. And I'm not there. So, I think that sometimes it's like, okay, people will say, oh, you're never ready to have a kid. You just have to do it and you'll figure it out. And I understand that, but I think that I'm, I probably look at it at a more sort of simple level of like, I don't imagine it being a thing. I don't sort of like look around and say, "Oh man, I wish I had that." Because I can have that, like the connection I can have through my friend's kids or nieces and nephews and stuff like that. And like, I get the bit, the value that I think potentially people are talking about through those interactions.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess there's pushback. That he's coming from a place of natural feelings towards something, so kids or marriage. And then I guess I was looking at the areas of pushback that may require a level of energy that may not actually be pushback. You're pushing—

Josh: it's like, do you have an example of where you've seen it with me?

Tommy: Oh no, I haven't seen it. It's more just I— and I'm, I'm wondering if pushback filters into other areas of life that ends up being energy served, and you might not necessarily have pushback on that area, but you're giving it pushback because it, it's a default.

Josh: So I think, yes, I think what you're probably describing is if you have pushback across systems or groupthink or these, the, or these, like, you're triggered by that, then I think there is, yeah, there's natural pushback on that. But I think that that's a, um, that's a filter set. That's a— I think that becomes like a belief system at that point. So it's a belief system that, um, like, I think for me it's, it's like talking about politics or stuff like that. Like, I, I've just never been able to enter into it. I think that there are a lot of people who will say everything's political, get political, do all these types of things, but, um I think that I've become more and more, uh, skeptical. But I'm just like, uh, it's, it's not about inaction. I'm not talking about inaction and not doing anything, but I think like picking sides and doing all of that sort of stuff rather than looking at it from afar and thinking about it in sort of a more holistic way. That's what I'm interested in, rather than treating it like it's a footy game.

Tommy: I wonder if, um, work was your life, is your life. And so, I mean, for— it's, it's an interesting one because you're working on yourself in your work. And so even that saying of you aren't your work, I just wonder how that fits for some people that embody their work. So what about is you are—

Josh: what about you aren't your work but your work is you? Like, so, so yeah, what we're doing from the podcast perspective, you are getting a piece of me on here, but that's not my identity. I come in, do that, it's a moment in time, I'm giving myself, but then I don't let the platform, the stickiness of what we're doing, the platform, the bit that sticks to your ego or whatever it is trying to retain that, I think, potentially. Yeah, I mean, that's art.

Tommy: I think people are like— if you look at painters, their work is an expression of them. So are they their work? Their work is a reflection of them as an individual. And so, yeah, it's complex.

Josh: Yeah, and I think that there is a, um, everyone's got a slightly different viewpoint. Everyone's got like a— based on a different experience that they've had. And so I think— I reckon in fucking lockdown I'm getting reflux. Have you noticed that? I go a little bit more. I don't know, maybe it's the coffee. Um, but just like I'm eating, I'm eating laying down a lot. I reckon that that's probably I reckon that's the first thing. You don't really, yeah, you don't need reflux medication. You need to actually just get out of bed when you're gonna have breakfast. That's probably the suggestion.

Tommy: Less acidity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: But it's interesting. I think I'm also very, like you and I have spoken about this on the phone where, you know, I've had a lot of personal rebrands. I've done a lot, made a lot of announcements. I've been the tea guy, I've been the baseball guy, I've been the, Walking guy. The walking guy. There's a lot of guys that I've been. And to be honest, like, I was even thinking about, you know, like the drinking culture stuff. I was like really digging into like, oh, why do I like— What am I doing? Like, why am I saying that? And for me, it's like being a bit facetious. So, I'm trying to be an agitator or like I understand that like drinking alcohol and all of that sort of thing. Is there's a lot of like destructive elements to it. But I feel like when you're in a footy club or you're in any environment where there's a drinking culture, no one sets out and says in the middle of the room, let's create a drinking culture. I know. And so I think that's a funny point. But so I think that part of it is— so it was perfect, like Ian reaching out and being like, Josh, be careful what you wish for, a drinking culture. Like That's part of my point where it's like, if before we go down these routes, if we're actually to call them out and not be unconscious to them and just say, oh, this is what we're doing, would we look at them completely different? So I didn't have really any intention of creating a drinking culture, but I saw that that's in turn what we're doing. And by almost saying it and, and making it a thing it's, um, the— your consciousness falls in, maybe. I don't know. I just— I, I thought that that was interesting because I was like, ah, it was, it was a bit of shtick, but it's also like, it's something that then at its core, if you think about what drinking culture is, and it's this unconscious thing, it's like not listening to yourself. If you were to say, oh, come on guys, let's, um, uh, you know, let's all be alcoholics, or let's all do this thing, or let's all do that like, let's all see, like, for— and like, even, even the whole thing around like food, like, oh, let's, um, let's order an entire cake. Like, um, like talking about it in the actual extreme version in a conscious state.

Tommy: I think that's why conscious— I think that's the pro— I think there's probably a version like of what is conscious. So there's awareness, but then there's awareness of the awareness. And so if your awareness is, I'm doing something hyperbolic to point out the stupidity or the absurdity of something, so then you're getting lost. Definitely. Oh, that's the whole thing. So that's where I— those go over my head when you say shit like the drinking culture thing. I hadn't even really, you know, I just gone over my head because I was like, in regards to like, clearly it's shit being stupid. It being stupid. Yeah, it's like Clearly it's a fucking—

Josh: You say shtick. I want to hear you say shtick.

Tommy: Shtick. Yeah. You know, it's obviously shtick at that point. And so, but why?

Josh: And so, what's the— Because I think that the— Especially when I was a kid, what would get me into trouble is I would think about things of if this happened in a movie, this would be very funny. So, I would do things like I tied a rope So my brother was doing a bike race and he was seeing how quickly he could ride around the street. But the finish line, there was a rope across the finish line, but I actually tied it up at either end of the tree. So he basically clothes hung himself. Like, and so he ended up with like a massive, like he nearly fucking was decapitated. Is that what it's called? Nearly lost his head. He didn't. Um, it's a risk of, of, um, you know, being my brother. But anyway, he ended up with like a welt on his neck, and it was like, it was fucked up. But my thing was that like, yeah, but in my mind I was like, how funny would it be if this happened, right? Like, if, if you fuck it— like, it's like when I played basketball as a kid and we had like an elderly lady who was our coach and we were all sitting on the floor and she tripped over us and we were just in hysterics. We thought it was the funniest thing ever. And like everyone's fucking like, what are you doing? And like picking her up and all that stuff. Like, so there is that thing around, oh, this would be funny in a movie. Am I a psychopath? I guess that's—

Tommy: I mean, I mean, you're, you're referencing shit from childhood and your prefrontal cortex is not fucking developed.

Josh: You're, you're expecting yourself— I was fucking— I was, I was a smart fuck from the age of 2.

Tommy: I mean, you're just dumb. You don't have, you don't have your, like, the part of your brain that recognises danger and fear. Like, it's not developed. Like, you don't get the consequences. And so you referencing childhood and then jumping from 30-year-old Josh to fucking 12-year-old Josh, huge difference. And you definitely don't do shit like that. You're— but as you said, an agitator. You're throwing things out to the ether with maybe a bit more thought than most. And so—

Josh: but I thought it was funny, like when I was a kid, everything I did, I thought like I was doing anything for a laugh.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, there's still comedians that do that, anything for a laugh. There's a lot of shit. I mean, I still do. I think you do it around friends as well, so put yourself out there. It's, um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's all learning. I don't know, I don't know where we take this. But it's good to sort of just dissect your thinking a bit. I've been listening to a lot of meditation stuff around the awareness and, and then what's beyond awareness. So there's a being aware of awareness, and so we can feel like we're— in reference to this, this piece, they were saying, you know, there's a lot of people that think they're self-aware, and this was the example, it's like, uh, people who are noisy about how self-aware they are Yeah, essentially is a new unawareness because— yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then it's like, what's the authenticity?

Josh: That's why we never say that we're fucking— we, we do it like— that's the trope of podcasting. It's like, ah, yes, the difference is that we're authentic. Um, what does that— what does that mean? What is authentic? Like, what does authenticity— like, we are performing. We are Like, I don't even— yeah, it's interesting. Go on, that was interesting.

Tommy: Yeah, so if you land at, I am so self-aware and I can recognise all these things in the moment, but then that becomes its own version of lacking awareness because it doesn't stop. Self-awareness never stops. It's aware of the aware, and then you're sitting back from it. Like, and so deep meditation practise takes you those layers back where it's— yeah, I mean, it goes very fucking— um, so is that virtue signalling then?

Josh: Yeah, well, that's what this—

Tommy: that's what this teacher— I should send you to— I think you'd really like the explanation. He's a, um, a— not a psychologist, uh, what's the one that can prescribe medication? Psychiatrist. Psychiatrist who is also a meditation Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's sort of multi-layered. And so the virtue comes at the point of someone outwardly saying, I'm so self-aware, but it's like they're also to some degree missing the point of self-awareness. But that's what I—

Josh: that's what I think. Even when you spoke, um, a few weeks ago of the guy who, um, was refusing to wear masks, and he was like a fucking— what'd you call him— like a, uh, a yogi. Who was it? Like, it was someone on Facebook and it was like, oh no, he's like a fucking meditate— what's the word?

Tommy: No, no, he's a like— yeah, what do you call it? Meditation. A yogi.

Josh: He's a meditation teacher. And so the thing is that it's like, so yeah, what does it take to be a yogi? Or what? And so if, if he's— if he is actively communicating all of this sort of stuff It's like, it's not like— I think that there's this sense that you become this thing and you are invincible to the human experience or the reality of being emotionally driven or being driven based on, you know, like if you're someone who's come from like a well-off family or an environment or whatever, he's probably not used to being told what to do. And so the uncomfortable feeling that he's feeling has nothing to do with government control and all that sort of thing. It's like he's been able to go to Byron whenever he wants or do whatever the fuck, you know, like that hasn't, like he's had fuck all friction in his life. And what he's experiencing for the first time is a bit of friction. And when he feels that, he thinks that all of his fucking life is under attack where it's just like, No, mate, you just— this is the first time you're actually having to do something you don't want to do. Yeah. I don't know the guy, but I'm just—

Tommy: No, I know, I agree. And a bit like, think about as a kid, you move away. I hated being told what to do. I hated school for that reason. I didn't want to have to learn something I didn't want to fucking learn. And you realise as you grow up that that saying, I don't want to learn what I don't want to learn, is the dumbest thing ever because Sometimes you're required to learn shit that you don't want to learn, but it's necessary to learn. And so the shift in the mind state towards these kind of things has to change at some point. And so, yeah, I mean, it's a— I mean, even the fact that we're having these conversations at the moment, I think is because of the time that we're in. The last week we've been sort of going a little deeper on just like a few layers back from what we normally do because it's what we're all feeling.

Josh: And so if we can't rely on other people's emotional states or for that person to get awareness or to reframe, what can we do? What do you think we can do?

Tommy: The only thing we can do is work out how we're dealing with these people at a personal level. And so I can't, I can't change someone's actions, but I can work on my reaction to their actions, my anger, or, you know, like, just at least observing that, fuck, this energy in my body is anger. What's going on here? And then see where that takes you. I think it's, we're so reactive. And so if we can just observe what the reaction is at a moment, it's like a good start because there's layers beyond that. But it's meditation. This is like the people I'm talking about are literally talking about exactly this at the moment. In my courses.

Josh: Do you think that part of it could be that, um, being frustrated around people's perspective or what they're doing, or what— like, that is a clear piece of work that you need to do as an individual to be detached from other people's actions? Or do you think that there should be, like— so talking about selfish. So I guess it's hard because there's also injustice. And so you can't just have— if I was like, don't worry about anyone else, only worry about your state and how you're responding to it, there is a level of, uh, um, privilege. I can't think of a better word to describe it, to be able to say, oh, I'm not going to worry about, say, people that are being persecuted in Iran, or the like big global issues, or I can't like I'm not a fucking scientist. I'm not going to enter into the climate change stuff. But I think that the hard bit is, is it's like there is a line. You can't, like, if I see a, like, there is a sense of young people being really frustrated and angry and all this sort of thing, and it feels like it's because they're being told that they can change the world. Everything that, that is wrong, they can change. And so, but I don't know what the, the spectrum is because is there, is there ego in— So in one way it's like a selflessness of like, we need to change the world, we need to do all this. But then there's also an extreme level of ego to think that you as an individual can change or impact all of these systems that have been happening for centuries.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, it's a big, uh, problem to come at and try and tackle individually. But I mean, if the world was filled with air quotes, um, enlightened humans, 10% more than what we are, I think it would contribute to some of these issues that people are coming out with anger and, and does it—

Josh: does enlightenment lead to change?

Tommy: Well, it leads to internal change. I think it is. I think it definitely does. Like, there's a version of it that does lead to internal change, and we're going to change this world by the people individually changing, because then you've still got psychopaths. If you're just saying you can't do that, there's still a psychopath that's going to do it.

Josh: Can an enlightened person not use the recycling bin?

Tommy: I think so. I think so. I think we're not talking about enlightened to the point of living in the cave in India, but there's a version of understanding the world that we are all living in and how it functions.

Josh: So then what's the spectrum? That's why I'm not confused. Like, does an enlightened person use a car? Does an enlightened person— like, I don't know— does an enlightened person eat meat?

Tommy: Maybe enlightened is probably throwing, throwing it. It's more just like— it's not even— I was going to say self-awareness, but just living introspectively at a, at a higher percentage, like dialling that up.

Josh: And so, yeah, I just want to—

Tommy: I mean, just have a good result.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, you've got to go. But there is something interesting around the— like, you hear people, it's like, oh, I don't own a car because like I'm looking after the environment. But they're, um, yeah, all of their Instagram posts, they're on a plane. And so you sort of, you wonder, it's like, no, the reason you don't have a car is because you're—

Tommy: That's virtual signalling. Like, if you're doing one thing and then you're doing another like you're clearly trying to virtue over here, but I think you're out of line over here.

Josh: But the thing is, there, it isn't clear, like everything's constantly changing. So, if we think about 15 years ago, what was on our radar as individuals around what to do, like look at even things like Australia Day and how much that has like, how much we've evolved to understand that like it's not on and it's like, it's, disrespectful, and it represents all of this pain. And so there's just so many social issues that then— yeah, I think the enlightened thing is very tricky, and I, and I'm extremely sceptical of anyone that sort of says that they possess that or they've experienced that.

Tommy: Or no, I think— yeah. Okay, so enlightened might be the word that paints the, the perfect person, like, which isn't reality.

Josh: So what's your definition of enlightened? No, I—

Tommy: so I don't think there's necessarily enlightened humans. There's people that are constantly working on— it's self-discovery, it's understanding of where you fit in the world. And what and how as an individual you're interpreting and dealing with the input. And so at that point, it's like, it's, it's, you're constantly aiming for the fucking star and you're trying to move towards it. It's like, so it's like the person that realises they have been consumed by their thoughts and now they're they have an awareness of, fuck, I am thinking about this and I'm getting trapped in that thinking constantly, and now I'm thinking about my thinking. Like, that step for— because there is a huge percentage of people that are just eaten by their thoughts and they've never thought that, hey, maybe I'm thinking this, and, and getting a bit of a different perspective on the internal dialogue. Like, that is a start in the right direction, I think. Don't say it's, it's the end game. It's the start of a new game, because once you realise that you have been trapped in your thoughts and now you realise that there is a, uh, another perspective on it, you can't go back to the old perspective. You can't, you can't stop thinking about how you've been thinking. Like, it's a constant. And so, but then you can get stuck in that. So there's another step of moving towards something, moving And so, but like, do you think that there's two—

Josh: like, I feel like there's two contrasting ideas or perspectives that are both potentially true, which is change yourself and change the world. But then there's the, the other side of it, which is we're all having a collective experience. And so if we all work as individuals to try and work on ourselves we're not necessarily tapping into the global perspective or the like joint experience that we're all having.

Tommy: You know, I like to be black and white, but I don't think it is black and white. I don't think there is choose yourself or choose the world. I think there's the collective experience is only, we only calculate the collective experience at an individual level. There is the collective experience that's— a fire happens, but then it's how is everyone that's attached to the fire interpreting that collective experience? It's going to be different for everybody. And so that's how the change yourself, change the world— it doesn't mean change the fucking world, doesn't mean stop climate change. It means how are you interpreting or coping with or experiencing the collective thing that's happening. And that is the— that's the big— I mean, that's the relief of pain that could come from it. It could be a realization. There's many versions of what will come from changing your internal self. And so, but I think— but that— I think people that are working on themselves in that way, they're going to have a better version of what, what the collective experience is, if how it's affecting them.

Josh: But it's also so personal too, because you don't know yourself and your, um, like it means different things to different people, even like, yeah, depending on your spiritual beliefs, depending, like there's so many different elements. Um, it's interesting, yeah, just because you see that a lot of these things a lot of change at the moment is based on shame, on anger. And so I'm sort of moving away from— I'm like, I'm not going to enter— like, I don't know if this is moving towards a more virtuous position or head-in-the-sand position, which is I'm choosing not to flare up or to enter into the noise. And so there's, there's a bunch of people who say that if you are not entering into it, if you're not in the debate, if you're not— you're doing these things, then you're complicit to all of this other stuff that's happening. You're part of the problem. And so I don't know, like, I feel like there's two conflicting ideas, um, because I'd be fucking real happy just to chill out and not worry about stuff. Um, yeah, I don't know.

Tommy: But then, but then that doesn't change it. Like, you still have interactions with people. And so if, if you look at time as finite and interactions as finite, every, every interaction you have with somebody, one after the other, is getting closer to your last interaction that you were going to have with an individual. And so So what about your version then? There's no infinite version. There is no infinite version of interactions that we're going to have. They're only getting less. And so the— my point being is, how do we treat people? How are we gonna— what taste are we leaving in people's mouths? What's our interactions? And so all it is is a perspective on your interaction with an individual is getting less and less based on it not being an infinite life. And so How can we just fucking be better or give it a— it's, it's the perspective shift in the moment.

Josh: It's like, but is the—

Tommy: when I get shitty with Bodhi, when I get shitty with Bodhi, I know I'm gonna— if I, I know that he's getting older, he won't be 3 next year, he'll be 4. And so that I'm gonna have less interactions with him. I mean, it's just, it's a dark view. Yeah.

Josh: And then so spirituality potentially reframes it into it's not a finite experience, this thing continues on. Or like, you can see how through the perspective of we have a finite life, interactions, all that sort of thing, it becomes very much like, um, systems process driven, or ticking boxes, or leaderboards, or where do I sit, how much money is in my bank. Um, it's an interesting— I mean, I feel like we've asked a lot of questions. I don't know if you've got any thoughts. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Um, if there's any sort of things that we should be reading. I've been listening to, re-listening to Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. It's great.

Tommy: Um, there's a guy named Loch Kelly, L-O-C-H-K-E-L-L-Y, Loch Kelly. What's his— he's a, um, he's the psychiatrist that is also a meditation teacher, and he, um, yeah, yeah, it gets— he gets real deep, real deep on that awareness stuff, the awareness of the awareness. And, and it's— yeah, I just love, love listening to him. He's so good. He's so good. Yeah, go and find him.

Josh: All right everyone, it's, uh, the Daily Talk Show. Enjoy your day, stay safe, and we'll see you tomorrow. Have a good one. Love you guys.