Projecting Emotional States

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 810.

Tommy: Happy Monday, Gronks. What's happening? What's going on?

Josh: How you feeling, TJ, with the— So, yesterday we did the show before there were the announcements in Victoria. How are you feeling post-announcement? Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, one thing I've sort of— I wanted— I was out walking yesterday or Saturday afternoon, went for a beautiful walk. Just an hour. That's the rules. It was lovely though. Afternoon sun. It was one of the best weekends I reckon weather-wise we've had in 4 months.

Josh: It's beautiful.

Tommy: And I really wanted to go and take a photo because there's like, I walk along the highway, but there's like a big wall that sort of is a sound barricade between the houses and the highway. And you can see just over the wall there's one of these signs that it's a digital sign that they give updates for people driving on the highway. And I just thought that sort of the picture of, I was thinking about, think to the future, 40 years from now, a photo of a sign that says, you know, get tested, stay home.

Josh: Have you had your COVID test? Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Get tested, stay home. I thought this like, it's like that would be iconic, like thinking back. The signs have since changed, so I can't get the photo that I wanted, but the new sign says curfew has something like 8 PM curfew, which is the new rule that's come in. 8 PM, you got to be in your house. There's no one out and they've locked it down because stage 4 restrictions have been put into place in Victoria. But I mean, yeah. I mean, not much has changed. We've been home, so.

Josh: Yeah, well, it reminds me that the sign thing reminds me of when I was— when the first wave happened and we went into lockdown, I did Alone Outside, which was a series I did on Instagram. And I woke up early every morning and I took photos. And it was that balance of I wanted to capture people outside on their own. Yeah, that's one of the main things. But then It was very tempting to have the shots of the playgrounds with all of the rope around them and things like that. It does feel, yeah, like when you're in it, it does feel like we'll look back. It almost feels a little bit like 9/11. Remember when 9/11 happened? And it's like, this is a moment that's changed the world forever. Do you get that sense?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. But the photos won't feel like that for 20 years. I think that's when you'd really sort of No. And so if you— it's like the person I'm so impressed that takes a photo of themselves every day for 10 years. I mean, that's just a narcissist, but the ones that do it for doing the stop motion where they're growing, they're like evolving, their face is changing. It's like that's for seeing something in the future. So I mean, that's why Google Photos now, I've just got thousands in there. Hopefully I'll be able to look back in 10, 15 years, be like, oh wow, I remember that time.

Josh: So, it's a— In some ways, it's a very interesting social experiment. It does remind me a little bit of the Netflix documentary that we watched, Three Identical Strangers.

Tommy: Oh, boy.

Josh: Now, I don't know if it— The problem is that I don't know if you can talk about it without revealing a bunch of spoilers.

Tommy: No, you actually can't. It's— You just have to watch it. I mean, it's in the title, obviously, Three Identical Strangers. Yeah, I mean, you watch the trailer, you know, I have a pet peeve, dude. Netflix, you know how there's— they've got trailers. They're not the trailers that were made for the movies, as in for when a film was released in the cinema. It can sometimes be like a trailer that sort of just—

Josh: I don't know, they must have cut it together just like a scene, just like a couple of scenes chucked together.

Tommy: I watched this trailer and I was like, sorry, I don't need to watch the film anymore because you just fucking gave me the whole thing in 2 minutes.

Josh: Yeah, it's like legit play-by-play.

Tommy: And then you watch, you're like, yeah, I knew that. I hate that shit.

Josh: I hate trailers. I mean, the premise—

Tommy: I like the, like, understanding the premise of something. Someone's been taken, they're trying to find that person, whatever. But not describing every— yeah, yeah, it's very easy. Kid got taken, guy went after them, killed everyone. That's all you need to know. And if you love those things, love it.

Josh: And so, um, I watched, uh, I watched Big over the weekend. Uh, which wasn't on Netflix. We're getting into the, um, we've gone into the ISO period where we're like, fuck, we actually need to, um, look beyond Stan, beyond Netflix, beyond all of that other stuff, and just treat yourself. Even though you're paying fucking a lot in subscriptions, you still manage to think about the movie that you want to watch that's not part of any of them.

Tommy: I mean, there's plenty. You were watching Big, Tom Hanks. I said you're gonna watch, um, Sleepless in Seattle, real tearjerker, but sort of makes you feel good as well, sort of love story. But these are some old— these are 32-year-old— Big was made in '88.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Well, the thing with like—

Josh: it's a fucked up film, don't you think?

Tommy: I haven't seen Big. I've seen Slips in Seattle.

Josh: Also, there's like a relationship, like classic. She essentially, um, there's a relationship that goes on and they're making out and she doesn't know that it's the boy, like the, the fucking 13-year-old boy who's grown up. It's a bit, it's a bit perverted.

Tommy: Oh, but anyway, yeah, yes, yesterday one sort of sight that sort of is quite startling is going to something like a Shoppo Doncaster shopping centre, huge, one of the biggest in Melbourne. And you see this absolutely— it's like there's fuck all people there. Really?

Josh: I was expecting there would be big lines or whatever, people preparing, getting their bags at the supermarket.

Tommy: But supermarkets are busy in general. But just seeing the dormant fucking nothing there, the Apple Store, they've removed every product off the shelves. And so it's like a store full of tables and they've literally dismantled all of the phones that were on display. Like they haven't just left it all out.

Josh: Do you know how much those tables cost?

Tommy: The tables at the Apple Stores?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I don't know. They're big bits of— they're big pieces.

Josh: Have a guess.

Tommy: Fucking ginormous. I mean, if I was just to throw a number, I reckon like $4K. A table. You could easily spend $4K on a big table.

Josh: Now you've underbaked it.

Tommy: Um, underbaked it?

Josh: Yeah, really? Yep.

Tommy: Uh, how much are they?

Josh: They're custom made in Canada and, uh, from a special wood and they cost $10 grand apiece.

Tommy: $10 grand a pop?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I reckon there's 3, 6, 9, 12— I reckon there's 15 tables in the one at Doncaster.

Josh: There's a lot of, a lot of cash.

Tommy: $150K tables. I mean They are the most wealthy company in the world.

Josh: Actually, this is— it's a fun thing because now, fuck, depends who you're reading, because now I'm reading another one that says $80,000. So, this is on Reddit and we know that only good things, legit info comes from Reddit. So, the cement bricks that outlined the stores are handcrafted from Germany, each wooden table the ones for Genius Bar and iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad now cost $80,000 per table. Oh, I thought it was— I'd heard $30,000. They're crazy though because they've got all these like, um, special features of like being able to, um, like they've got a cash register built into some of them. Have you seen that where it's like—

Tommy: Yeah, the Genius Bar at the back for sure. Yeah, yeah, like there is a very impressive table. Yeah, wow. So anyway, I went to yesterday— I mean, we're all trying to save a few bucks. We've all sort of taken a hit to the hip pocket in terms of, you know, work and revenue and wages. And so I thought, ah, you know, $15 haircut for Bodhi, I can do it myself. Okay, I can do it myself. And I've got like a shaver. It's not the— it's not the beard trimmer that you used on your head that then you fucked and had to go get a new one. Uh, it's a legit but it's old. It's a legit head shaver, and so I use it for my beard because my beard is the thickness of someone's hair on their head. That's what I need to sort of attack.

Josh: So does it have the little, um, the bottles of oil? Because I never know what to actually do with those little oil bottles.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got the bottle of oil, and you're just meant to, like, when it's off, just run it once across, across the blade, and then turn it on, and it just lubes up the the blades. Anyway, I got Bodhi downstairs, got him onto his little chair, and we put like a little cute sort of throw over him. So it looked like he was at the barbershop and I got stuck into it. He lost his shit. And so I had to give him my phone, which meant he was like, had my phone in his hand with his head looking down. So it's not ideal. It's like you want to, a barber or a hairdresser wants you to look at yourself in the mirror. So you got that nice, you know, They're getting the sort of symmetry, they're trying to sort of cut it all properly. I got into it and I regretted it as I shaved one side of his head off. So, it's like he literally just had like one side was a 2 and it sort of blended back into a mullet at the back.

Josh: I mean, this is not too dissimilar to what happened with me, is it? So, do you have a little bit more empathy for what happened? Like you're trying to— Do the right thing. You don't want to have to go to the hairdresser.

Tommy: Well, I committed, and so I had to keep going. I had the scissors, I had everything going, and I ended up getting as far as shaving the back, the sides, and trying to do a little bit of a, you know, trying to sort of trim the top.

Josh: Fade?

Tommy: I got to a point, it looks like an absolute goose.

Josh: And so what have you done? Have you buzz cut it?

Tommy: Hence why we went to Doncaster Shopping Centre to go to Just Cuts to get it fixed up. Oh, no.

Josh: How much? Did they at least give you a deal? Surely you've done half the work.

Tommy: I mean, it cost $22 in there. Oh, really?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: So annoying. $22.

Josh: Were you pissed off though at the time?

Tommy: Oh, I felt insecure. Did you laugh at him? You know, like I just, I really couldn't.

Josh: Was he wearing a hat or a beanie or something going to the shop?

Tommy: No, this is the thing. You can't just. Me, I just would have whacked a hat on. Yeah, for 6 months. Yeah, he is a child that didn't give a shit about his hair in the first place, literally was more interested in the phone and what that had to offer than what I was doing to his head. And so I felt funny for him, but then I was like, this kid doesn't even feel anything. Yeah, how, how funny is it that we totally identify with what our hair looks like and it's part of our fucking identity?

Josh: I mean, it's very much a Jacket identity thing, right? You've got great hair.

Tommy: Well, when people tell you you have amazing hair. You walk into an office— I walked into the Bastion, who we had, uh, Fergus Watts, who's CEO of Bastion. I was up in Sydney at the head office of Bastion, walked in with Jack, his brother, who's, you know, on, you know, one of the owners. And he's like, Tommy Jackett, best hair in the business, welcome! I mean, that does a lot to your fucking ego. Anyway, we, um, the lady said to me She said, oh, not bad, good try, good try, but I'm glad you've come in to let us fix it up. And so he walked out, he walked out, he walked in as an 8 out of 10, he walked out as a 15 out of 10. That kid, he was an absolute— he looks so good. The sharpest haircut in Bulleen.

Josh: So you didn't fuck it enough, like, so that you left enough for them to be able to fix it?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, what they gave him was what I was trying to do, but I got it. I basically say that I am the guy who dug the hole for the pool, and then the pool builders came and installed the pool.

Josh: Yeah, you're losing the chat. Yeah, I loosen the chat.

Tommy: But, um, no, he's happy as Larry, and he's looking a million bucks.

Josh: Oh, that's good. On, um, I was thinking about experiments, uh, so, you know, if you watch this, uh, three identical strangers, you'll think about, you know, experiments and things like that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And then also everything that's happening at the moment with vaccines, people going into trials with these things. I read a book called Rebel Without a Crew, and it's about a filmmaker and what he does to try and get his films made. And he was— it's Rodriguez, the director, and he was talking about doing all of these medical things like trials to make cash so he could use that money to make films.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: And so what I'm— I've never done it before.

Tommy: Back in the— well, back there is like, do you want to be a part of this study? You can be paid to. And I— yeah, I've always thought, fuck, who are they relying on? Desperate uni students that have no time to work but could sort of dedicate 4 hours on a Saturday to be injected? I don't know what, I don't know personally anyone who's done clinical trials of anything.

Josh: But there's a bunch of people who like, that's their shtick. They just go from clinical trial to clinical trial. Apparently, there's ones around like sleeping, like if there's a bit of sleep deprivation involved. I remember hearing one where it's like you have to sleep at a university and then they wake you up every half an hour or whatever. And that's obviously, you get more cash for that.

Tommy: How many times you get woken up, you get cash.

Josh: Yeah, I don't know, but it's interesting. Like, I wonder what would you, what would you do from a medical trial perspective for a bit of cash, mate?

Tommy: Not much. Not much. No, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, I guess so. What— so the, the people we deem as desperate that help, uh, pave the way for technology and medical research.

Josh: Like, shout out to rats.

Tommy: Shout out to rats. I mean, this is why they do it. Well, you bring it to the first COVID-19 trials, like these are already underway. There's thousands of people being injected with something. How do you know? Like, you could say that the people that are desperate, that need something, are willing to take it.. But there's also people that aren't desperate and they still do it. I mean, absolute hero. They don't— these people don't get enough. There should be some sort of like page where it's like things that have really sort of come off, like heroes. They get awards.

Josh: I wonder the ones that have gone bad. How many people have died through clinical testing? Deaths due to clinical— Do you reckon? Surely, like from an ethical perspective, they can't—

Tommy: they—

Josh: They're only trialing. 88 clinical trial volunteers died in 4 years. Um, here you go. Uh, at least 1,000 people who took, took part in, uh, clinical trials over the past 4 years— at least 1,000 people who took part in the clinical trial over the past 4 years have died, and 88 of these deaths were caused by direct side effects of trials, the Health Ministry told the— I don't even know where this is— Rashaba last week. So this must be— just trying to say where we're about to— in Mumbai. So it was in India. Uh, I mean, that's pretty, uh, anything that has a death rate to it is, is a bit fucked.

Tommy: But I mean, these people are putting themselves forward to hopefully have change. I mean, wouldn't you be like, well, they're just—

Josh: are they just desperate for cash?

Tommy: Yeah, so desperate for cash is one thing, but then I guess if you're only— if there's money involved, I don't think— yeah, maybe not. Maybe they're not all going, this could help change the world. This is like, I need to eat. That's— it's sad, isn't it? I mean, I, I always think about the mindset you'd need to want to go to war, and you see people with families that decide to go over and serve. One side you've got, I mean, this is helping our country, these are the people that are protecting us, all of that. The other side, you've got a family and your wife, your husband is just stressed out of their mind always. I personally, like, I fall into the category of absolutely not. I couldn't do it to myself and my family, but that's not to say that the people that do it are selfish or anything. Anything.

Josh: It's like they have the personal sacrifice stuff, right? Like, that's what, like, I think that the service men and women in the US, it's a big thing. Like, it's a— which, which I think makes, makes sense. I think that for me, yeah, like, it's a hard one to reconcile, but I guess, like, someone has to do it, right? Like, we do need people to be able to do this sort of stuff. Like, what would it look like if we're all like, we're not going to have any military?

Tommy: Of course. And then it is a belief system. Yeah, it's a belief system though that has to be different to someone like me. Like, you know how you hear people— okay, I've seen people just sort of talking about this before. It's like, no, it was their calling, they felt they needed to do it. It's like all of this stuff is your mind and your belief system in play.

Josh: Where maybe part of it is that you are, um, the likelihood of dying in combat or whatever is low. Maybe that's part of it. So it's like, if you knew that, if, if you knew that you were going to die serving your country, I wonder what the likelihood— like, so if you're going like kamikaze or whatever it was, where it's like your job is to fucking die like what the, um, the rate of, you know, people signing up would be.

Tommy: Signups. But I mean, people are still signing up. I've had a bunch of mates in the military.

Josh: But then do you think people see it as like from a lifestyle perspective? Because that's what I wonder, right? Like, it's, um, and that's where maybe I don't connect enough to the personal sacrifice. And I always think of like, yeah, it's like a career. It's like, oh, this is fucking— I get to work out all the time, I get to train, I get to be focused, I get to do all of these sorts of things. And just like working in mines or other dangerous jobs, there's a risk and reward associated with it.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I've got a young— a mate who my age, a year above me, that's, um, that served, and he lost a few friends, like, you know, right next to him. And he told me that he was young and angry when he wanted to get into it. He wanted to fucking get over there and fight. And so, I mean, that, that is a mindset that would serve you coping with it. Not to say it's the right mindset, but yeah, I could imagine that is one that's quite consistent across the board. Young 20-year-olds that just want to get out there and fight, or they just want to, you know, serve their country. I mean, it's also in the family thing. So my grandfather served in World War II, but you hear back in the day, remember when people would fake their age based on wanting to serve. And so that was— that's culturally a different thing back then. I mean, you could look at it now, you could either say we're softer now because there's so many more people like you and I, Josh, than there's iPads. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my finger's just been swiping. Yeah. And then— but then there's the other side of it, that's people want to put their selves in the front line. To protect the country. I mean, patriotism in this country isn't as prominent as the US. You know, this seems like there's, you know, people wanting to sort of protect the US more than this country. Would you say?

Josh: Yeah, I think so. I mean, just definitely, um, we haven't grown up with it.

Tommy: So if anything, now it's like patriotism for Australia is seen as regressive or something. I don't know, it's like Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Well, yeah, it's seen— it's seen as like, um, what is it, like not open-minded potentially?

Tommy: Or—

Josh: yeah, it's interesting. Regressive is like, yeah, an interesting way of describing it because like, what's— because yeah, there are, there are a bunch of— yeah, I mean, that's how it's sorted. Like, it feels like it can be a bit— there's a bit of dogma to it maybe. So it's like you only see these things a certain way, and so you're, um, your life and your experience and your worldview is coloured by patriotism or nationalism or these types of things, which then how can you have empathy for, say, you know, the stuff that's like with Mexico, like it makes a lot of sense to build a wall when you are thinking that you're number one and like you need to protect it at any cost.

Tommy: Keep out.

Josh: Yeah. Um, in something a little bit, uh, more absurd, did you hear the, um, was described as appalling Melbourne person find after driving 320 kilometres for a Big Mac?

Tommy: You reckon they legit got pulled over and said, I'm just on my way to Macca's in fucking Wodonga, or wherever it was, Wangaratta?

Josh: I feel like this is a great marketing ploy. I'm not saying that McDonald's— you can't hypothesise about— you can't hypothesise with anything because everything— everyone takes everything literally. But the— I'm not saying McDonald's did that, but imagine like a Red Rooster. Maybe Red Rooster could potentially set up a situation where they get someone to travel very far So, for instance, it could be going to, or like maybe there's, for instance, what about Rami? What's Rami's restaurant called? Oh, oh, oh, I've gone blank. We had Rami on the show. It was called, it still is called, I'm just trying to have a look, Rashay's.

Tommy: Rashay's, yeah.

Josh: So, I reckon Rami, for instance, being a restaurant owner, like, What about he gets someone like us to go to the border of New South Wales and say that we're just really craving Rochers.

Tommy: Rochers, which is only in New South Wales.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: Up in, yeah. I mean, this is—

Josh: I mean, it's a good marketing technique.

Tommy: Yeah. I guess you, so you, what's the extent of the fine? It's a $10,000 fine or low end $1,650 or they tell you to turn around and go home. Right now it'd be up the $10,000 area. Like, they're over stupid gronks. I mean, this is the thing, the trader— so people who streak, or say Vitaly, who, who is a YouTuber, he actually went to Brazil to the World Cup. He paid for a ticket and he streaked, ran out on the field, because he knew the clout and the fame that would come out of that. But I mean, that's it. That's going, okay, I'm up for a fine and I'm probably making money from this video on YouTube. And so, I'm going to wear the cost of it, which is, I mean, a punt, but it's like, it's just a budget for a video, isn't it? He's just set out the budget, flights, accommodation and fine.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is that so, there'd be people slamming this person and there's been, you know, the I don't agree with what's happening at the moment with like, I went on news.com.au and they had the two girls, the photos of them who went to Queensland or whatever. There is that sense of publicly shaming. Like, I think that we are promoting the publicly shaming of public shaming of people as a mechanism to get people to do the right thing. But I just wonder whether it is extremely destructive to just like the pub. Like, if you think about like mental health, I feel like there's this overarching mental health. So, there's like your individual mental health and then there's like the health of the public as a whole. And I feel like some of these things that are happening right now, the— Yeah, like the anger and the unwillingness, I guess, to understand. Is very strong at the moment because everyone's just seeing their personal situation and they're saying, okay, based on what I have, what I've done, what it— like, the sacrifices that I've made, um, you know, they're judging people based on that where we're not really clear. Like, we don't know everyone's circumstance.

Tommy: Um, I mean, shame is a powerful, powerful emotion and one that I don't think should be just thrown onto people or just used as some leverage against an individual. I mean, there's one thing— I mean, this is just moral. It's a moral dilemma. And watching Three Identical Strangers, I felt this torn moral— it was a moral dilemma. It's the perfect, perfect explanation of it. It's like, when you watch it, you'll know. But for even this, it's like someone doing the wrong thing, clearly breaking the law when they knew it wasn't deceptive. And then the other side of like using them as the example, which is bringing a heap of shame to an individual. And we don't want individual— like, I don't think as a society it's like, what is a go-to? We don't want people to just be walking around feeling shame all the time about—

Josh: Do you think that that's— do you think that there is— shame is the thing? Like, I feel like the, um, the interactions that I've had with people uh, lately there's been so much shame in everything, whether it's like how they're feeling or what they're projecting, or it's like there's a, there's a level of, um, maybe, uh, maybe everyone thinks that everyone should be holding everyone else to account with certain things, or like there is this, this, uh, external looking thing where it's like, let's see what everyone else— like, because everyone's in their cocoon they're then looking outwards and making judgement calls on everyone else. Yeah. Do you feel that? Like, what do you mean? Like, what is the tone, right? Like, if you were to— it's very hard because we're in it, but what is— what's the tone right now specifically in Victoria, do you think?

Tommy: The tone of individuals across the board?

Josh: Yeah. So I think it's like the public sentiment, public tone, but then look at it Like, what sort of conversations— what have you learned from the conversations that you're having with people at the moment?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Anger, blame, um, uh, and out of control, which— I mean, I was just looking at what shame sort of— shame associates with feelings of withdrawal motivations and feelings of distress, exposure, mistrust, powerlessness, worthlessness. Like, powerlessness is one Not that you— like, you could look at your day and having the power to make decisions on how to shape your day. And a lot of these, a lot of these powers have been taken away from us. We can't decide to go out after 8. And so from conversations I've had, there's been anger, there's been all of these things. I mean, we spoke about last week, which is funny because it's probably more relevant this week, and controlling your controllables. I mean, I think we're really going to get a, a good understanding of that now because the benefit of the anger— anger is so disempowering. It does— I don't think power is within anger, especially when you can't channel it to something. You know, you could say a fighter who channels his anger into the ring is when it really is put to good use, but it's still a powerful highly emotive emotion, like it's controlling. And so if— how can you drop back? That's where I'm, you know, that's where I— yeah, I've had some conversations where people are very frustrated. And so there's, there's—

Josh: and so there's that saying where it's like, uh, misery loves company. Where does— if you were to take that misery loves company and apply it to what's happening now Does it resonate or do you think that there's something in that?

Tommy: Oh, I mean, if it's just if you've got something in common, in common could be that you are angry. And so then two people that are angry about the situation.

Josh: But do two people angry, like, because what I wonder is it's like two angry people, it doesn't like cancel it out and mean that it's happy. It just like doubles the anger, doesn't it?

Tommy: No, I know. Yeah. I don't know if it leads anywhere or if it brings any any solution to anything.

Josh: And so, and so then, like, I wonder the part of— for me, I'm like, uh, like, no disrespect to, to anyone, but I don't know if I'm willing to enter into it. Like, I'm not— I don't know. Like, I think I'm past the stage of, um, uh, entering into the anger because, like, I think that it's almost you feel like you need to. So you hear you're hearing someone being distressed about something and you're trying to empathise or trying to understand. But then there's also the reality of like, if you're not feeling that, how do you sort of protect where you're sitting emotionally so that you don't enter into that world?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, anger is a coping mechanism that is, you know, could be produced instantly as a response and you can't— and you couldn't even catch it and you don't even realise it and then you're just in the middle of it. Or it could be like, I've had a lot of anger in my life, I think, when I was younger as a coping mechanism. But then, so if you have someone like— I don't think you're— I don't think you go— you don't get anger in the traditional sense. You blow up, but I don't think anger is your like a a coping mechanism of yours. And so, well, maybe the conversation between someone like you and someone who's angry is not good for either parties. Yeah, the angry person isn't getting anything from you and they're still feeling that feeling, and then you're feeling a different one. And so, yeah, I mean, this is— think about that as a, as a, as a, you know, as a concept of two people with these kind of feelings in this time. These— there's going to be so many clashes. And so people are going to be walking out of their day thinking, fuck, I had the worst interaction with blah blah blah.

Josh: And so what about like if you didn't enter in? So what I'm like, I think that one thing that maybe a lot of people can relate to is it's like, have you had a conversation in the last week where a person came to you with a certain emotion, a certain feeling, and you felt in that moment that it you either needed to enter into it, and you pro— I think that that's like the default, is it's like someone comes to you. So say if you're in a car and someone like holds down their horn, that makes you think they've transferred a feeling that they have over to you, and then you have some sort of response. You have it like an act. Like if someone fucking holding their horn down, I can't help but have a feeling. And so, yeah, yeah. How do we make— how do we have empathy for people but also not allow their emotional situation sort of rub off onto us?

Tommy: Yeah, I think it's a challenge. It's a level of awareness that it's hard to get to, like, because the emotion will arise, it will be the reaction. I think it's very far down the line where you've got to a point where you've removed the emotional response. That's— but because I think we are going to have emotional responses. You fucking break something of your own, you know, drop a glass and it's going to smash and it will instantly give you a reaction. I don't think you get to a point where you're just like, it was what it was.

Josh: Yeah, but—

Tommy: and so once it arises It's what, what you do with it, because you don't need to enter into it. So you could get— you could blow up in the car and then go, okay, there it is. Hello.

Josh: And so then is—

Tommy: thanks for coming.

Josh: So is social media or those, like, every single post and every single caption, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, it is someone projecting an emotional state? So even if we do something like, um, the Daily Talk Show, how we're going, we're celebrating, or we have transferred our happy emotion or our celebration onto everyone else. And so then if you think about like a feed, if you think about a news feed on social media, we are having the equivalent of like hundreds of cars tooting their horns and we're like reacting and responding. It's like when you have it, like you can only have, you know, one car in front of you in a lane, right? Or you can have, there's only like, you can't have that many cars around you that you can actually be taking control of or responsibility for from like how you're feeling. Whereas like, this is like you're zoomed out and all of a sudden you are responsible or you feel the, um, the effect of every single one of these cars and every, like, what every single one of them is doing. Um, oh yeah. And so that's what I wonder with, from a social media perspective, Um, yeah, I think there's like a— there's a piece of work that I've done in starting to reset and identify. It's like the screen time stuff. I haven't worked out exactly what it looks like yet, but it's like, man, there was it. So when I, um, like when I went away or whatever, when I was overseas for 4 months, I actually didn't talk to— like, it was just Bree and I. I was doing the show with you, but it's like you don't actually, uh you don't talk to that many people day to day, and then you come back and not much has changed. And I think for me, it's like a, um, there's definitely a simplification for my own mental health where it's like, I think that potentially, I think that you can feel responsible for— if you follow 1,000 people, all of a sudden, like, how many times do you— like, you've met someone you follow them on Instagram, and now all of a sudden you're entering into how they feel about how Dan Andrews is doing, or how, like, what we should be doing. And so it's like, uh, for me it's nothing personal, but I reckon I, I'm someone who is highly sensitive to, to that stuff. And I probably—

Tommy: and yeah, and thinking about the, uh, operating system So the normal operating system that is manifested based on what you've just said, all the input from every person, whether you're friends with them or not, your social media friends, that becomes a normal. And so it is a challenge to pull yourself out of that because it is requiring a different— what you will know is it is a more positive approach. But the other one, positive or negative, a normal becomes a normal. And so that stimulus and being fucking highly emotive and reactive to what people are saying in your ether is still just the way you've been operating. So it's like, it's so hard because you go one way hard and you're like, oh fuck, getting out is hard as well to the other side. But it'll all still happen. There will be still moments. But if you can just fucking dial that noise down, it's so beneficial.

Josh: And I think that like, you read, as you read, um like I've been reading some autobiography stuff, and then I think about who I respect from like the craft or what they've done or what they've done for an industry or whatever it is, and, um, they don't have the capacity to have that many things going on at once, like that many conversations. And so yeah, the reason I bring it up is I think there's just probably— there's probably a lot of people that feel the same where it's like, hang on, I'm going on social media and I'm consuming this stuff about, you know, from someone who I haven't actually seen in person for 8 years, or every time I speak to this person, it makes me feel a certain way. And I think that this time can teach us that all of these things are optional. Like YOLO. Yeah, it doesn't— there's something so empowering about being like, oh, like, you don't need to enter into this stuff. Like, you can— You don't have to have a strong opinion on everything. And if you don't have a strong opinion on everything, it's probably because you don't know everything. And it's— I think it becomes difficult for people who think they do know everything and they think that they could, you know, run the country better than, you know, any world leader. Yeah. It's an interesting time, but I think that potentially that stuff all of that noise.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I feel like maybe I wish I had identified it earlier because I've definitely done it, right? Like I did the whole going off social media and things like that, but just identifying like, oh, what is it actually? What's that response doing? What is the constant being accessible? Like, I like the idea of being haunted. Hard to—

Tommy: Is it empathy?

Josh: Yeah, go on.

Tommy: Access?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, fuck it. Like, do you think that you're accessible?

Tommy: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: What does accessible mean to you?

Tommy: Well, accessible to friends, I don't know, it's just I ignore some messages that I get sometimes. Not text messages usually, I feel sort of guilty about those, but messages in general. Coming through. But yeah, I don't know, I think we deal with the noise differently, just our own versions of it. Um, the empathy for yourself though is to, uh, to know that it does— like, it is you— so you saying, I, I wish I knew this earlier. I, you know, it's like it takes time to learn something, for, to, for the penny to drop, light bulb moment. Is it is It just has to be the way it is, I think.

Josh: And it's the equivalent, I guess it's like, using a metaphor, it's not too dissimilar to your phone and you've got 100 apps open and you're wondering, why is my battery running out? Why are all these things happening? And then you're like, oh, fuck, I've got every app on this phone open. And so, you like, I'm in the process right now of closing them all down to get to a point where it's like, I actually don't want to be like, and this comes out of like, it doesn't have to be crazy at work. It's like, busyness. Like, how much of this is— how much of the stress, the busyness, the responding quickly, the being accessible, how much of it's actually moving the needle in a positive direction for you in your life?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, I think it's noisy, so it feels pro— like there's progress, but if you reassess what the progress is—

Josh: always on, always available So, if you gave yourself the job, so, for instance, like using like the car or road analogy, like the— You see cars going past, there's an intersection, right? There's not one point where I think that it's my response. If I see cars struggling, it's not like you go into the middle of the road and start directing traffic. But it feels like what can sometimes happen is it's like, that's like a job that could be done. And so, we're just entering, if we see a problem, we think, okay, we'll enter into it and solve it. And so in some ways I feel like I've just been direct, like I've entered up, ended up on a street corner or an intersection. It's like fucking Southeast Asia where there's just fucking someone there just like, and you know, fucking 100,000 motorbikes and stuff. And it's just, it's realising of like, oh, hang on, like I don't need to, this isn't my job. Um, yeah, and it's nothing personal, but I— the, the reason I bring it up is because I feel like I can't be alone. And, um, if you're feeling a certain way, if you're feeling like the weight's on your shoulders, or you feel like people are asking too much of you, or like, there is the other option, which is just like, I'm not, I'm not entering into it. And that's— yeah, and like, and there is something in self-preservation as, as a means to be generous. It's not about self-preservation to be selfish. It's about you're the best— you can be the best version of yourself if you can enable some sort of filter system that works for you.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's a good way to start your Monday. Yep.

Josh: Uh, anything else? Any other bits and pieces?

Tommy: Oh, it's another lovely day in Melbourne, so happy about that.

Josh: Yeah, that's it.

Tommy: Great.

Josh: Okay. All right, well, uh, enjoy the rest of your day. We'll be, um, it's just gonna be you and I for the, for the week. We ended up, uh, yeah, shifting a few guests because we feel during this time it's like, uh, we went to 2 days, 2 episodes a day last time. We're definitely not going to do that. But, um, yeah, we— there's definitely something beneficial in us sussing this out. And as these big extreme things happen, aversions happening anywhere, you know, everywhere in the world right now. And so Hopefully you can get something out of our chats.

Tommy: Things are changing, lots of announcements in Victoria today, so it's, uh, I like it.

Josh: Yeah, look after yourself everyone and enjoy the rest of your day. We'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.