Phoebe Parsons On Anxiety & Growing Confessions of a Train Wreck

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 804.

Tommy: Special guest Phoebe Parsons is joining us. Welcome, mate.

Phoebe: Thank you for having me.

Josh: Uh, so you are from, uh, Confessions of a Trainwreck. Uh, how many episodes have you done now?

Phoebe: Oh, putting me on the spot. I think full episodes, I think we're up to about 123 now. And then I do, you know, drop in some bonus episodes when I feel like it.

Tommy: Half episodes, 1,500.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Phoebe: The limit does not exist.

Tommy: Well, just talking off air, if you're watching this video, Phoebe has a very impressive headset on, and it's what dreams are made of, to be honest. Yeah, we're very impressed with it.

Phoebe: If anyone has a customer service team in their work who's been stood down, I suggest you go and rack their desks now because the things that you find in those drawers It's so good.

Josh: That is a great idea. The podcast, the types of things that you're covering, I could imagine that sometimes you go too far. Have there been any times where you've had to cut something or you've regrettably put something out into the world?

Phoebe: The only time I've had to do that was when my mum became a religious listener and I had told a storey about having a pregnancy scare, as a lot of females do, and then I realised I wasn't pregnant, I was just just fat. Um, and when my mom heard that story, she called me and said, Phoebe, you cannot be putting out this kind of content. What will people think of you? Um, so instead of me reneging my content, I just reneged my mom from subscribing to my podcast.

Tommy: I love that.

Josh: I love that.

Tommy: I mean, I've had blowups with my mom. I've got in full arguments before about the content that I put out. Mostly it's positive, but you know, sometimes your mom doesn't know everything.

Josh: What was it? It was actually about, um, TJ's mom, uh, contacted him about talking about the psychologist. He started going to a— seeing a psy. I remember that one specifically. You talk about mental health stuff. Like, have you found that you've got like a filter, or are there certain things that you still like to keep private?

Phoebe: Well, I think because of podcasting, because you're not doing it in front of an audience, you kind of forget that they're there sometimes until an episode comes out and you start getting messages and you're like, oh God, I did say that, didn't I?

Tommy: Yeah, oh mate, it's, um, it's always the case. And then it's, it's on the internet forever because some jerk, if you actually say something, will screenshot it or rip it off YouTube. It gets real pesky. I mean, look, have you seen some of those clips that have meant to be pulled down that people— who is that person? What sort of stuff?

Josh: I mean, are you that person? What, like, just like, I definitely screen— if I see someone having a meltdown on Facebook and I think it could be taken down, I'm definitely Screen grab.

Tommy: Are you one, are you one, Phoebe, to grab something?

Phoebe: Oh, 100%. 100%. You know what I found it really bad on at the moment is on iTunes, and you can't remove those comments that people write about your podcast on iTunes. What's it, Apple Podcasts now?

Josh: Podcast reviews.

Phoebe: And I find it's like a pile-on culture. So it's one person out of 500 comments are negative, but then the next 10 are just spitballing off this negative person's idea, and you're like, have you even listened, or are you just joining in the conversation because you want to vent something?

Josh: I mean, the best thing about having a podcast podcast for a while is you give people enough time to say, "I used to be a fan, but now I hate the person." It seems to be— It's the favourite thing in Apple Podcasts. You can sort of tie it back to ISO. When everyone's in ISO now, everyone's getting a little bit— Like whether they know it or not, they're getting a bit angrier, they're getting a bit sadder. Where are you in the spectrum right now in the COVID mindset and mental health perspective?

Phoebe: To be honest, not great, but only because of a fault of my own. Last night I thought it was smart to watch Contagion.

Josh: Oh yeah, that's not ideal. And so, this is—

Phoebe: I haven't seen that movie before and it's very closely linked to coronavirus.

Tommy: Yeah, well, it is a movie, so it's not real, but I've heard that it's very, very—

Josh: So, it's fake.

Tommy: No, no, no. I mean, this is, you know— Did I hear you don't watch movies? Usually, Phoebe, is that you?

Phoebe: No, I can't sit still for that long, so it's, it's very hard for me actually to watch a movie. But I was trying to compromise with my boyfriend last night, and he thought it would be a good idea to watch it too. Then neither of us slept, and all I could think about was washing my hands.

Tommy: No, I mean, I just touched— I went to get a coffee before, and I stupidly touched the bin when lifting it. But I would never have thought about that back in the day. Side note though, this is a café, Phoebe, I go to a bit, and I'm just actually going to stop going there later in the day because they're the type that are so generous that they'll give you a doughnut and a muffin as you walk out the door without paying for it. And I just heard him whisper, and I was like, mate, I don't need that, and I don't, I don't need those calories, babe.

Phoebe: It's fucked. And so I said it at the end of the day, and they're just trying to get rid of it. Okay.

Tommy: Yeah, but it's annoying because I didn't— like, yesterday Josh and I spoke at length about not drinking, my issue with drinking, and that sounds— Josh's issue with food, and it links exactly to that. It's like everything's against you when you're trying to stop drinking. Some bloke would be like, mate, you want a fucking beer? I've got 20 for free. And next minute I got muffins.

Josh: And what's the radio industry stuff too? Every single time I remember working at a radio station, any time that MasterChef had a new season out, they're sending cupcakes. It feels like instead, like there are a few of those industries. I mean, is there working at like a health club day to day, are that like, are people really dialled in in regards to the food that's around the place?

Phoebe: You know what, you'd think so, but if someone brings out a healthy cake in the office for your birthday, it's on their face. No one wants a bar of that. We do get sent a lot of, um, like new supplements and stuff, so we get sent a lot of like new pre-workouts and things like that that are going to be, um, sold in the retail section of the clubs, which is sometimes fun to try, but then sometimes you just you're sitting at your desk at 4:00 PM and you've just necked like 2 serves worth of pre-workout and all of a sudden you can hear colours and you're like, whoa, I've never had the pre-workout stuff.

Josh: So like, I feel like it would be a bad idea for me. I could imagine I'm like the kind of guy to be in emergency saying my chest hurts. Like, what's the— what does it actually do to you, Phoebe?

Phoebe: Well, I have it every morning. So I go to the gym every morning at 5 o'clock and it's the first thing that I put in my body when I wake up. Like, as much as I wish I was one of those calm people who wakes up in the morning, has your warm lemon water and writes a gratitude list. I'm not. I get up, I cheque my phone straight away, I have some pre-workout, and I'm in the car on the way to the gym.

Josh: And like, sometimes it does hurt your heart a little bit going through red lights.

Phoebe: Yeah, literally 0 to 100.

Tommy: There's an energy drink that, um, that is— it's almost comical now. It's called Bang, and there is a heap of influencers online flogging it. It's like They've tapped into that sort of female influencer, high amount of followers, just like, I'm drinking a Bang again, but it's just, it's ridiculous. But it's, it's coming up.

Josh: So what is it, caffeine or what are they putting in it?

Tommy: Yeah, high amounts of caffeine, like sugar hit, like a fructose hit or whatever, the glucose hit, whole bunch of stuff. It's prime ingredients for you to shit yourself, to be honest.

Phoebe: Well, it just reminds me too much of Remember when you were first 18 and you drink Pulse, like the energy drink with the vodka in it, and you would be trying to go to sleep when you got home and you'd be having heart palpitations, but you couldn't sit still, you couldn't close your eyes, the room was spinning, you didn't know what was going on?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, that's just for 25-year-olds, it becomes cocaine at that point. This is before you get all that. Yeah, this is the cheapskate version.

Josh: Do you remember, Vik, there was a There was a chocolate bar called the Viking Bar, which I remember as a kid, it looked like a Mars bar, but it had like energy, like it had the stuff that makes you go a bit sort of hyper.

Phoebe: I kind of remember that. I remember the packaging.

Josh: Yeah. I really wanted one as a kid, but it was just like, I was the type of kid who you didn't want to give red cordial to or things like that.

Phoebe: Oh, I mean, right.

Tommy: Some people are super sensitive, like they could never have a pre-workout. Is there anything you're, sensitive to, like your body sensitive to, Phoebe?

Phoebe: Water. I can't drink it. I have pre-workout first, then I neck my coffee, then I've just never liked the taste of water. So if I'm trying to stay hydrated without caffeine, I'll put like cordial or something in it because I just cannot stand the taste of water.

Tommy: I'm glad we've got you here because I've always said that I— anyone who says they don't like the taste of water have missed the point. Um, what is it like as a person that does doesn't like the taste of water. What do you think water was going to do?

Josh: And are you just pissing butter at this point?

Phoebe: Well, it's strange because like I love zucchinis and that's basically like hardened water, you know.

Josh: It's very true.

Phoebe: It just makes no sense to me.

Tommy: I would put it— I put money on— most people I reckon would think zucchini tastes worse than water. Water almost offers zero taste.

Phoebe: What is—

Tommy: what are you tasting when you're drinking water?

Josh: What's the pushback?

Phoebe: I think it's probably the inconvenience of having to pee so regularly, if I'm being completely honest. But also maybe I just don't know what it feels like to be hydrated because I do a lot of exercise in the day and I'm not hydrating myself with anything that's not caffeinated or got sugar in it.

Josh: Did you find that, uh, how long were you in iso? Like, so being in Brisbane, in Victoria here, it's fucked where we're sort of basically, uh, locked down.

Phoebe: I really feel for you.

Josh: Yeah, what is it, what was it like, and then what is it like now?

Phoebe: Oh, in Brisbane we weren't in it for too long. I think it was only about 5 or 6 weeks that we had to stay completely at home for, but we were still allowed to go out and exercise for an hour a day, still go to the supermarket, still go, I think, to the chemist and whatever. But the thing is, shopping centres never closed. Nothing ever actually closed. So, there was still the people who were, you know, going out to, you know, buy your emergency shoes or whatever it was that you needed to buy. I actually didn't find it too bad. I moved in with my boyfriend 4 weeks before lockdown, so, and I got stood down from both of my jobs. So, I thought that it was going to be a lot worse than it was. It was a really good time. I always said 2020 would be my year. So, I, in my head, I was like, well, this is going to make or break us really fast. But luckily for me, he didn't lose his job. He was still going to work in the office every day and we got through it.

Josh: So, are you actually employed now? Are you just in the— You still go to the office?

Phoebe: I'm just swabbing. I can't afford to pay water at my apartment.

Josh: You don't drink it anyway, so you'll be fine.

Phoebe: Exactly.

Josh: Exactly.

Tommy: Touché. Phoebe, I was listening to one of your podcasts about something that happened at your house with your boyfriend, the key issue snapping off in the lock, and then you're not wanting to— I mean, so can you just explain what you did to fix this problem?

Phoebe: Are you talking about the trip to Bunnings?

Tommy: Yeah, the trip. I mean, trip to Bunnings. The whole story. Well, just to get the lock— get to— from what I took from it is you took it upon yourself before actually having to pay big money to have your lock fixed because you snapped the key in. So you tried to get it out yourself, right?

Phoebe: Well, so we live in a very old apartment and the key unlocks both the front and back balcony doors. And one night, after a couple of— I think I'd probably had a couple of wines on a house party call one night, and I slammed the door shut and the key snapped off and got stuck in the door of the apartment. And both the doors were shut, the washing was on the line, everything was outside. So I tried to get it out myself with a pair of tweezers, which didn't work. So then we ended up going to Bunnings, which is somewhere I'd never been in my life before I met my boyfriend, and now I feel like we're there every weekend, and I spent $60 on buying equipment. I bought needlepoint pliers, WD-40, little like wire things to push in there and pull it out. And I was prepared to pay for a locksmith, but luckily needlepoint pliers— cannot recommend them highly enough, mate.

Tommy: When something like happens to me, I immediately go, oh fuck, we're in for big money here. Like, to actually get the real person out to fix it. So, um, I had a garage incident. This is the kind of shit we talk about on our podcast. We, uh, my wife reversed into our garage door, which took it off the hinge and completely buckled it.

Josh: Oh, you didn't say that bit. No, you just said all of a sudden, all of a sudden the garage stopped working. You didn't say that Amy smashed into the garage door.

Tommy: No, no, no, no, that's not why. No, no, two stories, two different stories. It's a big arc. The garage door is a big piece of this podcast. So, we hit— so, Amy reversed into it. Luckily, it didn't smash the back window. The garage door came off worse, and somehow it still worked. But then, Phoebe, a week and a half ago, it— the garage door snapped its spring, so it wouldn't open. I was like, "Oh, no. They're going to see the injury to the door, and then we're going to have to pay even more." Turned out, mate. So lucky the guy came today. He fixed the, the, the rail that had been knocked out from the car, and he fixed the door. So we've got away with not spending a cent trying to fix this door, and now no one knows. So we're going to get out of here with our bond back.

Phoebe: Fucking pumped. That was my next question. I was going to say, do you own that place or you're renting?

Tommy: Oh, absolutely not.

Josh: Yeah, renting. Just renting.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, just renting, which is why I was more worried. If it was mine, I probably would would have been like, "Oh, fuck it. Just, I'll live with it for a few years." Yeah, super chill about it.

Josh: I mean, it's like if you have a scratch on your car, you're sort of secretly hoping someone, like a very small collision, no one gets hurt, but someone hits that bit of the car so you can get that replaced, right?

Phoebe: I was just going to say that, but for me it was the other side. So, with my old car, someone hit one side, but I couldn't even afford my own, like my own insurance claim. So, I just hoped someone would hit the other side, so at least it was symmetrical, and they did. So, then it was fine.

Josh: Did they really?

Phoebe: Yeah.

Josh: Like, do you think that— Because I have a theory that people that have, you know, dents or scratches on their car, like, they're a liability. Like, if I see someone in a car park doing that, I back down because it's almost like—

Phoebe: You don't park next to them.

Josh: Yeah, because you know that they're a bit fucking tweaked. And so, how far between your initial car injury and then getting it to a point where it needs to get fixed? How many months? Was it?

Phoebe: I mean, I just need you to know that this car was so cursed. It had no hubcaps. The glove box had fallen off somewhere, melted off. Like, I think it must have been glued on from whoever owned it previously to why I did. I don't remember ever hearing the hubcaps dropping off, so either someone stole them or my music was up so loud that I didn't hear them falling off when I was driving.

Josh: Was it a green car? Because I've heard that green cars are cursed.

Phoebe: It was blue. It was a little blue Nissan Micra.

Josh: Okay.

Phoebe: But I crashed it the day that I got it. So, the day that I bought it, I moved into a new apartment and the parking space was super tight, and I pulled in and smashed the mirror off and scratched all the panels down the whole right-hand side of the car. So from day one, that car was cursed. And then, to really just put the cherry on top of the end of that car, I decided to grow up one day after driving that car around for 4 years, and it was pretty much deranged from the day that I got it. Obviously, I crashed it the first day. I decided to trade it in and had it valued to only be receiving like $2,500 for the trade-in, and I was like, whatever, I That's more than I thought anyway. And the day that I was going to pick up the new car, I reversed this car out of my garage, which was a different apartment, hit a Ranger, shattered my whole back windscreen out, and the car just decompressed like a tuna can. Wasn't legal to drive it to the dealership. And do you know how much they gave me to still give them my car? And I had to pay for a tow truck. They gave me $100 for it.

Josh: That's so funny.

Tommy: Oh, God.

Josh: I mean, I just can't be trusted. Are you someone who, like, are you a neat person? Like, inside your car, are you someone with heaps of water bottles and stuff? Or not water bottles, you don't drink water. Oh, not water bottles.

Phoebe: Red Bull cans.

Josh: Yeah. Do you run a tight ship inside your car or is it a bit messy?

Phoebe: It's very strange. I run a very tight ship inside my kitchen and my lounge room, and I'm always very on top of the laundry. My bathroom is filthy and so is my car, and I can't figure out what the roadblocks are to me not being able to clean the bathroom or my car, but they're there and they're not going away.

Josh: What do you think if you would— What's the telltale sign of a dirty bathroom? I wonder, is it like a hair thing? Is it like, what's the—

Phoebe: No, it's not. I mean, to me it's not that bad, but other people will disagree when I say that. It's more like The shower has some watermark stains on it because I don't squeegee it down. I don't ever mop the floor, and I use a lot of dry shampoo on the tile, so the floor is kind of like a white matte color. It's not the black shiny tiles anymore. Then with my car, there's like 100 gym towels in there, like 200 different like merchandise water bottles. There's just crap everywhere.

Tommy: You said you moved in with your, your boy 4 weeks before lockdown. What's, um, how's that experience been? I mean, living with someone for the first time?

Phoebe: Yep. It was— it's really good now.

Josh: It was—

Phoebe: no, that's a lie. It was never bad. It was just a confronting experience, I think. And he thought I was going to be a lot messier than I actually turned out to be. I'm the one now who, you know, always does the kitchen and the dishwasher and the laundry and things like that. It's just the bathroom I will not go near. But we've got a place with 2 bathrooms, so we have one each. And I think straight away that just negated you know, or mitigated any kind of fight that could erupt about the state of my bathroom.

Tommy: It legit could save a relationship.

Phoebe: Yeah, it could. And now it's like better than ever.

Tommy: That is great.

Josh: I saw a video where you deconstructed how much peanut butter you're actually allowed to consume in those like recommended intake serving sizes. Serving sizes. Serving sizes.

Tommy: Serving sizes. I don't know if I want to hear this. I don't know.

Josh: Why?

Tommy: Because I eat so much peanut butter and so does my son who's 3. Yeah.

Josh: And so, I mean, are you— during ISO, did those things go out the window? Do you just— because I feel like peanut butter, if you were to eat something, it's not the worst thing in the world. There's worse shit than peanut butter.

Phoebe: No, exactly. It's more in ISO, it's more the drinking that went up. I have a rule that I don't drink during the week. Normally. Uh, lockdown, different story, especially the first 2 weeks when it was kind of like a novelty and you'd just be on a house party call or a Zoom call every single night with a different group of friends. You'd be getting super, super drunk. But I still— I think because my alcohol consumption went up, I was still quite careful about what I was eating.

Tommy: How much peanut butter can you actually— what did it look like just visually?

Phoebe: It very sad visually. So if you, uh, if you weighed the— recommend I eat Mavis peanut butter. It's very similar to like, you know, Peaks, so like the natural peanut butter, 20 grammes is one serve. So if you can imagine, 20 grammes of peanut butter is like probably half a teaspoon of peanut butter. And then you think about how much peanut butter you'd put on two pieces of toast, it's probably 200 grams.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it's not, not ideal. I mean, better than Nutella, I still, still think. The, um, the drinking thing TJ was talking about, so he's completely getting rid of booze. He did it last year, then went hard this year. Uh, how much of your, uh, like, uh, you've spoken a bit about mental health and all that sort of thing. How much of mental health is tied up into the drinking stuff for you?

Phoebe: Um, not a whole heap for me, to be honest, because I think that I do control myself with drinking quite well in that I don't— for me, that's not my kind of escape at the end of the day. I'd rather have ice cream or chocolate or something like that. And I think I, I have alcoholism in family, so I've always been very conscious not to fall back on alcohol unless I'm at a party or something like that. That's always kind of been something in the back of my head, although it's— I've never found it a problem, if that makes sense. For me personally, I've never found myself drinking alone or when I was sad, or, you know, obviously have a stressful day at work, but you come home and you and your partner have like, you know, a beer together or whatever it may be. But for me personally, I have— my history of mental health is more about the eating stuff. Which then probably goes back to the serving sizes and the, you know, the restriction around that stuff.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, ice cream is a big one. It's so easy to, um, to consume a lot. Like, since Uber Eats and getting like ice cream delivered to your house, like, I— it's been so long, but, um, it feels like I'm in the '90s. Like, I remember being a kid and like after dinner I needed something sweet, I needed dessert.. And now I feel like I'm doing that, but it's like, oh, we better Uber Eats some ice cream. It's like, oh, man, it's cheaper if we get the big tub. It's got to do us for a couple of days. It's just like a nightmare. I mean, what was your go-to? Like, are you a big delivery eater? Like, are you getting stuff delivered?

Phoebe: Look, it's again difficult moving in with my boyfriend because I am very fussy when it comes to what I eat. So, we only have two things that we can agree on eating off Uber Eats, and that is Vietnamese food. Or a poke bowl place up the road from us. And Vietnamese food normally wins because it's one of those like Asian fusion places. So there's like Thai food, Chinese food, Vietnamese food on there. I'm not huge on Uber Eats, but also I live very inner city, so there are a lot of places I could just walk to outside of my apartment to get food. Um, but I— once I was so hungover that I got coffee Uber Eats to my house, up into my apartment level, and it was like $14.50. It was the laziest thing I think I'd ever done in my life, but it was worth every dollar.

Josh: So, are you the picky eater then?

Phoebe: God, yeah. Absolutely, yes.

Josh: Do you like Mexican food?

Phoebe: I love Mexican food.

Josh: Love it. So, your boyfriend doesn't like Mexican food then?

Phoebe: No, he loves Mexican food, but he has that a lot. He works in the city, so he doesn't meal prep like I do. So, he often has Guzmán for lunch because that's like, you know, the easy, cheap, semi-healthy Mexican. So, I love Guzman too, but he's usually had it for lunch. So, for dinner— I mean, the other day we got a box of HelloFresh, but I was very fussy about the way that I wanted mine, so the poor guy had to cook 2 separate versions of this one meal. It took him about 4 hours, but also I'm not the cooker. I hate cooking and I'm terrible at it, so that's on him.

Tommy: I think all relationships have like a middle ground for food. You said it's the poke bowls or Vietnamese. For me, it's Thai food. So, like a, what do you call it? Like a curry.

Josh: Thai green curry.

Tommy: Yeah, like a Thai green curry or a, what's the other one?

Josh: The red curry?

Tommy: No, no, no. There's like a— Anang? Nah, it's like a thick one. Fuck, I've gone, it's gone over my head. Beef, like a beef—

Josh: Massaman. I love massaman.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a nice beef massaman.

Josh: Yeah, it really gets in your teeth.

Tommy: But if we're ever getting— if we're ever going to order stuff and I say to my wife, what do you want? And she'll always say that. And so that is like the— for me, I'm probably— I'm going burgers or pizza or something. So she would probably— yeah, but yeah, I know all relationships have it. For you, what, Josh? I don't know what it is because I feel like you probably get the say each time.

Josh: Well, no, no, no, I think Bri and I are just very aligned. I'm not some sort of dictator, but yeah, for us it's a I mean, yeah, Mexican is great. Mexican's great, I think, too, if you want to be healthy because you can get a burrito bowl or do something like that. But yeah, I mean, pizza and Subway.

Tommy: There's always one in the relationship, though, that probably cares more about one thing. Like, I reckon I would push harder for what I wanted in most occasions.

Josh: Sure, sure. What's the deal, Phoebe, with açaí bowls in Queensland? I feel like every time I go to Queensland, it's like the açaí state. How often are you eating açaí bowls?

Phoebe: I was eating them a lot when they were new. It was like my favourite thing to eat in a week. I'd have one for dinner if they were open at dinner time. I was obsessed with them, but they've kind of teetered out. I haven't seen— You know how food goes through these massive, like, cyclical phases? So, for a while there was cupcake stores everywhere.

Josh: Yeah.

Phoebe: Then there was froyo everywhere. Then there was açaí places everywhere, and now it seems to be I see croissant places everywhere. That's like the new thing that I've noticed everywhere.

Tommy: I tell you what, it was— I think it was just a matter of time before people caught on that they aren't good for you.

Josh: What do you mean? Are you sure they're not?

Tommy: Acai bowls are fucking trash, dude. It would—

Phoebe: no, they're made with fruit juice and fro-yo too. Lots of sugar in them.

Josh: Everybody thought that was silly, wasn't it?

Phoebe: Yeah, no, people don't know why it's marketed.

Tommy: Yes, exactly. I mean, you've got a PR background. You're all about that rah-rah. That's what we call PR. What have you learned about working in PR and then starting a podcast where, you know, it's all about comms, isn't it?

Phoebe: Yeah, kind of. Like, should I even say this? I've never told this to anybody in a public platform, but like, I've called the Daily Mail on myself before to get my podcast out there, and it works.

Josh: And then you repost it and you're like, oh, 'Pigs at the Daily Mail.

Phoebe: Look, they'll just take anything.' Little do they know that I made a fake email address and a fake name and acted as my own publicist. But like, you got to do what you got to do.

Josh: That's so good. That's amazing. And what sort of headlines did you give them?

Phoebe: Oh, this was— Yeah, it's a couple of times, actually. The first time was I was actually really bored one weekend and I was home alone for like 3 days. This would have been probably around this time last year. And Cadbury had just released a limited edition pineapple lumps inspired block. And I love pineapple lumps. And I was like, right, this weekend I'm gonna make it my mission. I've got nothing else to do. I'm gonna find this chocolate. If it's, you know, I'm dedicated to it. Went to a couple of Coles, couple of Woolworths, started posting a few casual things about it on my Instagram story. And then people started getting really involved, like, I love pineapple lumps. I saw them here, I saw them here. And I was basically on a rat race around Brisbane trying to find this chocolate. And so I decided I'm just gonna commit to this. I'm gonna start tagging Cadbury in the post. I'm gonna do like polls and just keep this treasure hunt going. Anyway, the Cadbury media team are atrocious. I just— I'm just going to put that on the record. They're horrible on the way they communicate to you. They've obviously just got some stock standard templated response to anybody who contacts them. Um, ended up— what happened then? Drove to a couple of places. Everybody was reposting it. Everyone was on this mission with me. And then I— it turned out they only sold it in England and it never actually came to Australia and it turned into this big hoax. Anyway, called the Daily Mail about that under this fake email address. Then when I woke up the next day, it was on the global news because my sister lives in Amsterdam and she got this notification on her Daily Mail news site that said, Australian woman goes on mammoth hunt to find chocolate that's only available in New Zealand. And it just turned into this like this epic thing. And I ended up doing obviously some like radio content breaks about it and podcast episode about it. And anyway, Cadbury sent me one block in the mail with no note attached to it.

Josh: He gave it to all Christian Hull.

Phoebe: It's so annoying. He lives across the road from me, too.

Josh: Oh, really? Surely. Yeah, surely. I mean, do you see how many he had? The, um, I mean, your podcast Confessions of a Trainwreck, it's had like a huge amount of growth. How do you actually grow a podcast? Like, how have you done it for you?

Phoebe: It's a good question. I wish I knew the answer. No, um, I think when I started my podcast, it was kind of by fluke. So I'm a journalist, like, that's my background, and I love to write. And so before I started my podcast, I had kind of come up with this train wreck concept, but I wanted it to be a book. Um, and then in a classic case of life intimidating art, the USB that it was saved on snapped in half one day, and I hadn't backed it up anywhere.

Josh: Was it in the car? Oh no.

Phoebe: Smash. So I thought, I'll just, you know, say stuff out loud is so much easier. I'm just going to do a podcast about this. And somehow I ended up winning a competition with Nova to do 5 episodes. And I thought that's all it was going to be, just, you know, this prize. I'll do 5 episodes, it's a cool story, then I'll move on with my life. And then somehow it ended up number 23 on iTunes in the second week that it was out, and they ended up re-signing me. And I thought, how did this happen? Like, what is going on. And then you just realise that people love to hear the truth. And I thought that I'd get condemned for finally coming out with like how hard it is to be in your 20s and trying to grow up and things like that. But it turns out that's what people like to hear. So that as it started to get more momentum, you have to, I guess, think a bit more laterally about the kind of guests that you're bringing on. And sometimes you think, you know, do they have a big audience and are they aligned with, you know, what I want to talk about? And then I started doing 2 episodes a week, not 1, and then I had a breakdown, so I went back to 1, and now I'm trying to go back to 2. And it's evolving. And then the live show thing was cool, which is obviously not a thing anymore, but I ended up doing a live podcast show at the Melbourne Comedy Festival last year, and I've done a couple since then as well, which is another really cool way just to do things a bit differently. And it's really cool doing things in front of a live audience because I think when you do a podcast, the only validation that you get from your listeners is when they message you about something, whereas when you do it live and you say something funny and they laugh, you're like, oh, 'Oh, people actually listen to this.' When it comes to the guest stuff, I mean, one thing that we've found challenging is the ask, asking people, 'Hey, can you post?' Like our new general manager, Jess, was like, 'Hey, you've had all these guests, like who's posted about?' It's like, 'Ah, most people don't.

Josh: We don't.' And it's like, 'Oh, do you ask them to?' It's like, 'Oh, we sort of do a very soft sell because we don't want to feel like we're leveraging people and we just want to have great guests on.' Have you worked out the balance? In how to do that ask?

Phoebe: Look, I am a very sensitive person, and oftentimes, even when I ask people to come onto my podcast, for some reason I feel like it's gonna be a burden to them. So I think I'm a bit too sensitive in the other way, but usually I'll just post something about them being on it and just cross my fingers and hope that they reshare it. And if not, that's cool. I'll just cry by myself at my home later that night.

Josh: What's been the biggest win in regards to like what— where you've actually seen the growth of it? Has there been any specific episodes or shares or—

Phoebe: Yeah, I think when your podcast gets featured on the homepage of iTunes, you see these massive, massive spikes in the numbers, and then obviously the subscribe rate goes up from there. And then you see— do you track yours like that? Do you go and look at the analytics of kind of the, the long life of your podcast and you see obviously when you have— breaks, they go right down and then they come back up and things. But I'm a very competitive person, so if I see my numbers dropping, I think, "Right, what can I do? What PR can I get? What episode can I do now? What can I do?" Which is, you know, it's a good and a bad thing, I think. Sometimes you just need to chill out. But I think definitely getting featured on the homepage of iTunes is a good thing. But then that also opens you up. You have to be prepared as well to get the people that don't like you as well will find you on there and then How did you get on the homepage of iTunes?

Tommy: Is it that same email address that you sent to the Daily Mail? Are you using that one?

Phoebe: It's a good question. iTunes are like the most secret company I think you could possibly work for. I don't know how it works. I've never pitched myself to get on. I think that's something that was done through Nova. I actually don't know how you get on, but I've been on there twice, I think, which has been nice.

Josh: What about when it comes to the content and sort of evolving with the podcast? Have you thought about ways that you can create it so that you can evolve and make it what you want it to be?

Phoebe: I think a big hurdle I had to overcome was I— my podcast used to be called Confessions of a 20-something Trainwreck, but then in October I turned 30, and for some reason in my head I had this idea that I would wake up on my 30th birthday day and somehow all of my shit would just be together. Uh, turns out life does not work like that. So someone just scratched the 20-something off the front cover of my podcast and we just continued as Confessions of a Trainwreck. Um, but I think as obviously if you do have longevity in a podcast and in a character or brand or whatever it is that you've created, you do have to think of ways that you can evolve it because you do change. But I think the cool thing about train wreck has been that my listeners have kind of grown with me. So they've also been on this cool kind of journey, too. And I guess you can't stay where you started, and no one stays like that. You think about even artists who bring out albums. Look at what Taylor Swift's just gone and done again in this last couple of days. And you think back to her first album, and she's constantly changing. And I'm not very resistant to change, so I'm not very good at changing, but I think I've changed. I think I changed a little bit too far and I tried to be this really inspirational podcast. And then I was like, cheque yourself, girl. No one's coming to you for like education or inspiration. They're coming to you to feel better about themselves.

Tommy: Is that someone— did someone say something or is that you realising internally?

Phoebe: I think I got a bit of feedback that was like, you're not funny anymore. And I was like, oh, okay. Sorry. But I think that I just got super interested in kind of figuring out— The premise for the podcast when I started it was I would like say a problem. So, my very first episode was I hadn't done a tax return in 6 years. So, the original idea was I'm going to interview an accountant about this to find out like how serious it really is. Could I go to jail? Is there a fine?

Josh: Blah, blah, blah. Is this just a free way to be able to get an accounting— like an appointment?

Phoebe: A sponsorship?

Josh: Yeah.

Phoebe: No, I'm kidding. No, definitely not a sponsorship. But then it ended up going in a bit of a different direction whereby I just chat to my friends about that stuff. So it was like people listening in on these conversations. So then in the last couple of— I guess probably the last 6 months when I have kind of gotten a lot of that stuff together, like I do do my tax. Well, I haven't done it for 2 years, but you know, I do. I was gonna say get my car serviced. No, I don't get my car serviced. But a lot of the things that I wasn't doing at the start, I have changed now. So now I've kind of gone down gone this path where I want to talk to professionals about, you know, I have the storey still at the start, which could be, for example, I've got an episode coming out actually today, um, about sustainable menstrual cycles and how, um, there are so many alternatives now. So I interviewed a sustainability specialist about that, but we both had these funny storeys about, you know, trying to use period underwear and menstrual cups and things like that for the first time. So there still is the element of the funny, raw, authentic train wreck stuff, but I'd still want there to be kind of message or takeaway. So, it's kind of like, "Do what I say, not what I did," if that makes sense.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: So, it's like, "I've made— here's my flaw, but I'm trying to work on it and you might learn, too." I love it. Yeah, yeah.

Phoebe: Thank you.

Tommy: It's great. I mean, there's— I love the YouTube channels that are like the, you know, "Tried this for 30 days" or "Tried this for 3 months." Is there anyone you love on YouTube that you follow that you're inspired by? To— for your own content?

Phoebe: I don't watch a whole lot of YouTube anymore. I do for the fitness side of stuff, so I did get into— right into, you know, Sarah's Day and Whitney Simmons and the big kind of— this is another really weird thing about me— I love watching mukbangs on YouTube.

Josh: What is this?

Tommy: Yeah, explain.

Phoebe: Familiar with the— with mukbangs? So basically, mukbang is— yeah, mukbang, it sounds R-rated. It's not. It's very G-rated. So, it's where a couple of people get like a feast. So, mukbang is a— I think it's a Korean term and it means broadcasting eating. So, they just get this huge spread of food and they just chat to each other and eat it all, which is— I don't know. It probably means I'm fundamentally unwell that I get so much pleasure out of watching people do this. And you can even take it one step further. There are ASMR mukbangs. Ones where it's like they're eating this crazy food with microphones just super close to the food. I find it a really cathartic experience, but that's more what I watch on YouTube these days. I can recommend if you're on the market.

Tommy: I know.

Josh: So, I remember when I was on a diet once watching Candy Reviews, and it like— I felt like that was my dessert. It's probably a bit dark, but no, I remember it inspired me.

Phoebe: I did that, too. I remember being on an 8-week challenge and watching where your calorie consumption is something ridiculous, like 1,200 calories a day. And there was this trend going around YouTube for a while that was called the 10,000 calorie challenge, where people had to try and get to 10,000 calories in a day. Well, surprisingly, the success rate was quite low. Like, to actually consume 10,000 calories is quite a hard thing to do in a day. But I get what you mean. Like, I felt like I was so hungry that I had to watch other people eating just so I I could sleep at night.

Josh: What are you worried about?

Phoebe: Oh, everything. I've got hectic anxiety. I'm on antidepressants to try and squash that. Everything. Last night I was convinced, convinced there was an intruder in my home when I was trying to go to sleep. So I made my boyfriend get up, get a knife, and go through every room and every cupboard in the house to prove to me that there was nobody there. There was nobody there, but I slept terribly because every noise that I I was on guard, you know.

Tommy: And what had led you to think that there was someone in the house?

Phoebe: I think I was just in a really bad mental state because I just watched Contagion. So I think that it was just— I was just spiraling. I wasn't in a good place last night.

Josh: What does the antidepressants do to you?

Phoebe: Ah, they— I'm on a very, um, I won't say which one because I find that can be a bit triggering to people who might be going through different things, but I didn't get any negative side effects. But it is a it's a— it's trial and error. So I tried a couple before I settled on what I'm on now, but I had terrible crippling anxiety that started to manifest itself very physically. So I lost my period, I was covered in psoriasis, I couldn't sleep. Like, it was, it was bad. I had all these gut issues going on that I went to hospital, but everything was inconclusive and there was nothing, you know, there was no medical test could show there was anything actually wrong with me. So I ended up going back to my beautiful GP who'd said this 12 months prior, but in my head I was like, anxiety, everyone's got anxiety, everyone talks about how anxious they are and this and that. And I think it's just such a frivolously used term in our culture at the moment that I think it's causing a lot of people to kind of go undiagnosed if you are suffering from quite serious anxiety that you do need, for example, to say be medicated for. That I just kind of shrugged it off and thought I was just stressed because I do live a very stressful life, but I like it that way. So I ended up, yeah, going back to that same doctor and it was a kind of I told you so situation.

Josh: Did you find that you recognised that you actually had anxiety beforehand, like throughout your whole life? And is there a clear— like I've heard sort of anxieties worrying about the future, depressions looking back in the past. Can you like talk about how it sort of reconciles for you?

Phoebe: Well, I think it was kind of like a, a series of light bulb moments once I kind of got diagnosed with this anxiety disorder. Um, when I was in my earlier 20s, I had an eating disorder for a while, and I was quite resistant to get help for it, but my mom kind of dragged me to a clinic against my will, and I just ticked all the boxes. I was a perfect patient because I just wanted to get out, go home. Um, and they never kind of got to the root of the cause, like they just just dealt with the problem at present, and I never really found out why. But I'm a very big why person, love Simon Sinek, huge Simon Sinek fan. And so when my current doctor was going back through all my medical records, he was like, this would have been your anxiety. And that's how my anxiety manifests a lot of the time, it's the control around food and things like that.

Tommy: So once he said that, it was like the last 12 years of my life, everything just kind of clicked, and I was like, oh, 'Oh, that's why.' So is it a realisation that you had it and now you have a term for it and are able to then identify when it was and moving forward, you know when it will be or when you're in it?

Phoebe: I think so. Sometimes you— I think you slowly kind of begin to learn what your triggers are. So for me, I do like exercises. It sounds so cliché, but I am such a big big fan of exercise. I have to start every single day with a huge workout because it just makes me feel really energised and so much clarity and just puts me in a good headspace. And that's really good for my head. And I know that there are, you know, you can see yourself when you are in triggering situations, which sometimes you can't avoid, like global pandemics, losing your job, losing all your income and things like that. I did start to see myself slipping back into some kind of habits around food and things like that, but I think that when you are, you know, seeing a therapist and you are on medication and things like that, you are able to kind of call yourself out on those behaviours a lot faster than you would have been able to do previously. So you can stop them from getting as bad as they might have been before.

Josh: So having a podcast and creating content, I feel like I talk about things being shtick, like I have shtick, and sometimes I don't know if I'm doing shtick or if I'm actually like in trouble. How do you know when you're doing shtick, like when you're like, hey, get the knife and like go cheque the house, versus it being like a full-blown meltdown?

Phoebe: You know, one of the weirdest things was I have the best listeners ever, and a lot of them were messaging me. This is when I was going through the kind of process of getting diagnosed with this anxiety just last year, and a lot of them were saying, are you okay? Like, you just sound a little bit different to what you have previously, and you just sound a bit sad and defeated and, you know, a bit more stressed than usual. And I love them, like, they were just trying to help, and a lot of them were trying to be like Dr. Google and like, oh, I think it might be this or this, or, you know, things like that. But I think that having people that you haven't even met being able to detect or realise that there's something wrong with you was a very powerful thing, if that made sense. So the fact that even my work had been— no, I wouldn't say suffering, but, you know, people had cottoned on to the fact that I probably wasn't in the best mental state. But it wasn't just the— it wasn't the context of the content, if that makes sense. So it wasn't the stories, it was my delivery of what was going on, which is also what, you know, made them realize, which I think is really cool.

Josh: Self-awareness then? Like, do you think you're someone who is self-aware?

Phoebe: Yes, painfully self-aware. Sometimes too self-aware.

Josh: What does that mean?

Phoebe: I think maybe it's— maybe again, this is a bit of social anxiety. I'm a very social person. I have a lot of groups of friends, and I think I'm quite extroverted, that I love being around people. But then, you know, sometimes when you're in a new situation and you're looking around and you're like, "Oh, does that person like me? Did I say the wrong thing just then?" And you kind of just overanalyze everything going off in your head. You know, sometimes you just get a bit of an intuition and you're like, "Oh, that person is not responding to me in the way that I would have wanted them to respond to me." And that's anxiety, too, right?

Josh: Isn't that the fucked up bit? Because I feel like I'm the same way. It's like I've got a good intuition. I can sense things. And then sometimes you're right, and so it creates this, um, self-fulfilling prophecy or whatever. Or like, you're looking for certain signs, and so you get all the boxes ticked, and it's like, yeah, I was right. But how do you know when to distinguish between anxiety and actual reality?

Phoebe: I don't think I do. I honestly, I probably don't think I do. And sometimes it is hard to tell if you're having a stressful stressful day or a stressful week or if you are just feeling very anxious. So I know, for example, I have— when I'm in an anxious period or an anxious state, I have a lot of trouble sleeping and I'll be— that home intrusion thing is this weird thing that just pops up sometimes and I think it is when I'm anxious and you're kind of— maybe it's an excuse not to go to sleep or to ignore critters like that. And I said this morning when I was leaving, I said, "Oh, I just feel a bit weird in my chest today and a bit— I'm just overthinking a lot of things at the moment and I think it is just a bit of anxiety and not— there's nothing stressful in my life happening whatsoever at the moment." So I think that that's when you can take a step back. But then on the other hand, sometimes when you have anxiety and you then pass off stress— no, sorry, the other way around. So, it's like vice versa. Does that make sense?

Josh: So, you see stress and anxiety as different things?

Phoebe: Yes, I think so, but then sometimes you confuse them. Yeah, and that's still very hard to decipher.

Tommy: Yeah, it's an interesting one because I do— I meditate each day and like there's some days where I'm— I get lost in my head where I'm— I start worrying about something. But then I am like, fuck, I'm just worrying about this. And then there is a moment where you can allow yourself to drop that worry, which doesn't mean it's not real. It just means that there is another option available at some point. Not always. It's very fucking hard, especially when the— yeah, it's heightened, right? It's like, feels like—

Phoebe: well, that's what they teach you in— have you ever done cognitive behavioural therapy? No, no, that's what they teach you in cognitive behavioural therapy. So they teach you that it's, it's normal to have negative or worried thoughts sometimes, but as long as you don't carry them on too much that they start to disrupt your everyday life. They teach you that if you have a negative thought or an anxious thought or a worry thought that kind of comes into your head, to acknowledge the thought but to also say out loud sometimes that that's just a thought, that's not my reality. And so my psychologist taught me a lot about this a couple of years ago. So the thought comes to you, so whatever the worrying thought might be, it could be like there's a home intruder in my house, and then your rational brain will be like, well, all the doors are shut, you've checked every cupboard, every room, there's no one in there, that's just a thought. Thank you, thought, for trying to keep me safe, but I'm just going to take that thought and remove it. And it's that kind of— but you have to train yourself to think like that, and it's very, very hard.

Josh: What's the difference between— sorry, TJ, you go.

Tommy: I was just going to say that, that is an extreme level of self-awareness at that point if some— if an individual can do that every time it happens. And that's, that's tough.

Phoebe: Absolutely.

Josh: The, um, on the eating disorder stuff, how do you separate an eating disorder with a health challenge? So especially someone who's experienced the eating disorder side of things, how do you do a health challenge to make sure that it's not like triggering or setting off those previous habits?

Phoebe: To be honest, I just don't do them anymore because of that very reason. And I still was doing them up until probably, I think I even did one last year, but when I do them, then I feel myself getting very obsessive again and it's very, very, very easy to slip back into that pattern. So now I've had to retrain myself to not, not that I ever trained for aesthetics because even the whole time I was quite unwell, fitness ended up being the thing that saved me because I wasn't— I didn't have enough energy to do the kind of workouts that I wanted to do. So I had to start fueling my body properly enough to be able to complete these workouts. So now I've had to just rewire the way that I think about working out, and I now will have a little snack at 5 in the morning before I go to the gym because the way I look at it now is I'm purely working out for performance. So I wear a heart rate monitor. I know on what days I want my heart rate to go into what zone, and now that's what I train to. I don't train to calories or to, you know, to— sorry, what's the word— to punish my body for last night's Mexican and dessert or whatever it is. I'm purely training now for performance. So I think that it is very dangerous because I think you'll find a lot of people who do do fitness challenges or bikini competitions kind of have these eating disorders that are just masked. They always have a reason for eating the way they're eating because they can say, "Oh, it's fine. I'm on a challenge," or "It's fine. I'm training for this or for that," which I spoke on my podcast actually about last week with a friend of mine who did bikini competitions for years and just developed the most unhealthy relationship with food and ended up struggling with binge eating and refeed syndrome and things like that for years after. And it's just, it's a very slippery slope, I think.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, there's— what's normal? What's normal about eating 6 meals of chicken and rice a day? Like, at that point you need to have some kind of obsession over what the result is for the blandness of it. But then the other side is, what's normal? I almost said normal, but it's— the normal's a really hard concept.

Josh: Or 3 meals a day, is that normal now? Like, look at what, you know, What people talk about with fasting and intuitive eating, is that not like—

Tommy: I mean, this is where normal probably needs to be taken off the table because everybody is so— it is a weird one that everybody is unique in this respect. Like, it's so nuanced.

Josh: Like, why can't we have green curry for breakfast? Isn't that a weird thing?

Tommy: Definitely could.

Josh: Oh, pasta.

Phoebe: Yeah, well, yeah, well, I guess it's what's normal for you. Some people love to snack, some people hate to snack. So I, for example, love to snack, so I do snack quite a lot throughout the day, but I keep my meals quite small to account for that snacking. Whereas someone like my boyfriend, he hates snacking, so his meals are a lot bigger than mine. But that just works for both of our lifestyles, you know. So I think you just have to stop, not compare yourself to what your favourite Instagram influencer's eating, or, you know, whatever bullshit product they're peddling. You know, and just kind of really just figure out what works for you and stick to it.

Tommy: If you look at Michael Jordan, the doco, The Last Dance, the obsession that guy had, like, that's— is that healthy? Like, sports people in general, like, if we're looking to any supreme athlete, it's like there is a version to get to the success that most people have that requires at a time an obsession. Obsession. Like even this podcast, dude. Like think about how many we've done of this. There's an obsession to it. Is it health— I don't know, healthy? We might look back in 10 years and be like, yeah, that was bloody healthy, or not. I don't know.

Phoebe: Well, I guess that's the grey area. It's like what's the difference between passion and obsession? Is there a difference or is it just the way that you— I don't know, I guess if you—

Josh: Is it just destructive or not?

Phoebe: Maybe the difference is me.

Josh: Yeah.

Phoebe: So if you couldn't do a podcast episode go— or, you know, you couldn't podcast for a week, you'd be— would, you know, would that really, really affect you? I guess that's the difference between, you know, someone who can take a rest day from the gym and someone who can't take a rest day from the gym. Some people are passionate about exercise, but they can still go on holidays and not have to go to the gym, whereas some people can't do that. So I think that's— well, that for me would be how I define the difference between passion and obsession.

Josh: If you don't mind talking about it, the going to the, the place where went for the eating disorder stuff. What was day one like? Like, when you enter in, uh, what was the experience and what were you like, um, as an individual when you went in? And what did you learn on day one?

Phoebe: God, it was so long ago, but I think it was quite confronting because there was— I was very young and there was a lot of people around. I remember the girl sitting next to me had cuts all down her thighs and she just looked so young and you just you have no self-awareness at that point, but also you're, you know, you're quite unwell, so you're not there from the mindset of wanting to get better. And when you don't want to be somewhere, you're not going to try.

Josh: How old were you at the time?

Phoebe: Just 23 or 24, I can't remember.

Josh: And so was it a specific, like, I guess food is a, is an interesting one, right? Like if there's alcoholism or something like that, it's like you imagine the person's drunk or that they've just gone crazy on booze, and it seems like a very clearer narrative. But is it for you, is it just like you refused to wait for the last time, or your family identified, was there a trigger point that then led to actually them stepping in?

Phoebe: Yeah, it was my mum kind of finding out what I had been doing. And she had an idea for a while. I mean, I was living with her and I thought I was being very secretive, but obviously I wasn't being so secretive. And then she ended up confronting me about it in a car on the freeway because she knows that I am a very— I do not like confrontation. I do not like talking about feelings. I don't like having hard conversations with people. And that was the only way that she could kind of get through to me, which was also— it came at the detriment of our relationship at the time because I didn't want to hear that from her. And I didn't— she was basically being the bad guy to me in that respect. Um, so And that was very hard for me and my mom to overcome as well in our relationship with each other, which is obviously a very important one to me. She is my primary parent. So that was probably one of the hardest things about the whole situation, if I'm being completely honest. And then you just feel very awkward, like people are watching you all the time. And I didn't tell my friends. I didn't tell any of my friends. Like nobody— well, my closest friends obviously knew what was going on, but I only spoke about it on the podcast for the first time probably 2 years ago kind of by fault. It just slipped out when I was having a conversation with somebody else. But I once read an article by a journalist that said, "You can't tell a storey until you've healed from it. You can't tell a storey in the hope that telling that storey is gonna be what heals you." And I think for a long time, I just didn't wanna talk about it, but then you kind of get to a point where you realise that, "Oh, yeah, your words could be someone else's wound." So if you can tell them a story, then that kind of gives them hope that they can get through whatever they're going through at the time, and it's a lot more common than you'd think it is, which is a sad thing as well.

Josh: And so then it's a, um, was it like a day sort of clinic or whatever, or you there— were you there for a period of time? Like, what time of day?

Phoebe: Day clinic. Yeah, it was the day clinic for me, um, and it was right around the corner from my work, so I just pop in and out. And my boss was quite understanding because she'd taken on a bit of a big sister role, so she kind of knew that there was stuff going on. And, you know, your patterns and behaviours do change very, very drastically, but you kind of you don't see it from that perspective because you're in such a single-minded point of view and, and mind frame kind of at the time that— and then in hindsight you're like, well, of course people knew there was something going on. How, how would you expect to get away with that kind of behaviour and not have the people that you spend 5 days a week with, 9 hours a day, not realise what's going on?

Josh: And so if someone's listening now, like, what are some of the telltale signs personally where you identified, oh, like, this is an actual issue now, and so that they could potentially, like, not self-diagnose but be self-aware enough to ask for help?

Phoebe: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is kind of big changes in, in your mood. And for people who are quite extroverted or quite happy, they can be, you know, your mood can plummet quite, quite fast and quite drastically. I think social isolation would is huge. If you stop agreeing to kind of go to dinner with your friends or for drinks— like, I'm a big party girl and I always go out with my girlfriends for dinners and drinks and things like that, and I stopped even saying yes to going to people's birthday parties because the idea of having to be there around food and alcohol and things like that was just too much for me. So I became very isolated from my friends. And then, you know, the ones who kind of— and we were so young at the time, how could I expect them to think there was something more serious going on? But sometimes people would just kind of pass you off and be like, oh, she's 'Oh, she's just a bitch now. That's who she is now. Let's just like leave her and we'll get new friends,' or things like that. But, you know, often when there are quite drastic changes like that, there is something going on.

Tommy: From experiencing your mum being that person that sort of steps in and, as you mentioned, sort of intervened, what's a— and I've heard you sort of mention on your podcast that reach out to, you know, reach out to people, send them a message, as little as it might be, it can be a huge impact. What is the thing that, from the experience of someone intervening and you being in pain, what's the learning for somebody out there that is thinking they should intervene with somebody, but it's scary in itself for them?

Phoebe: I think as hard as it is, you just have to do it, and everybody has to have at least one person who is looking out for them and who can say something like that. And I think that's been a huge point of conversation, especially in the mental health aspect of a global pandemic and being isolated, is if you're worried about somebody, chat to their close friends and family and pick a person together who can kind of go in and be the, I guess, the person doing the intervention because you don't, you know, it could be too late by the time you get around to it. And yes, it will be uncomfortable, but it's a conversation that completely needs to be had by somebody that they feel comfortable enough with to I probably will have an argument with them at the time because they're not gonna wanna recognise that there's a problem or recognise that you're getting help. And from your perspective, it's embarrassing when someone calls you out on that kind of thing and there's a lot of shame involved in that. But I remember one sentence that just is always in my mind is the night that my mom confronted me about it. Got home, shut my bedroom door, I was crying and she knocked on the door and she came in and she gave me a big hug and she was like, 'You're not broken, you're just a little bit damaged, but we can fix that.' And that to me was just like— I get goosebumps now even just thinking about that. And it was just the way that she spoke to me was just, I don't know, so much a part of our relationship that I don't think anybody else could have had that conversation with me, not even a friend. Special.

Josh: Have you, um, have you learned anything being in a relationship like with the complexities of you and your experiences having someone that you're living with? Like, how has that changed you personally?

Phoebe: A lot. Sorry, I'm not meaning to be rude, but I'm gonna have to wrap up very soon. My boss is coming out of a meeting. But it was very hard moving in with him, I think, because that was something that I could still always hide when we didn't live together. So, yes, we would go out to dinner a lot and things like that when we were just dating but living separately. And then, you know, I would eat very differently during the day or the other days that I wasn't with him. But then all of a sudden you're shopping together and cooking all your meals together. And, you know, dudes eat very different to girls. And especially if you've never been around somebody who does have, um, disordered eating patterns or things like that, you can't hide it when you live with somebody. And I think at the start of lockdown as well, as I mentioned, when I lost all my income and everything was changing very dramatically, and, um, I did kind of hold on to those habits a little bit, and I was being a little bit more controlling about what I was eating. And from his perspective, he was trying to come at it, you know, from a loving place, but we did have a bit of tension at the start because I don't think he realised that it was coming from an anxious place. And I think the misconception about people with eating disorders is that it's coming from a place of vanity or aesthetics, but that is the complete opposite to what it actually is, and it goes a lot deeper than that. So sometimes you just need to let me control what we're gonna have for dinner, and I'll just beef yours up a little bit more. I'll put some, you know, some more rice in it or some more whatever it is in it, and you kind of work through that. But again, I think it's just being really honest and open in your communication with each other. And as clichéd as it is, like, communication really is the key to any good relationship. And, you know, it's an uncomfortable conversation to have, but, you know, the magic does not happen in the comfort zone.

Josh: So, love that. Uh, Phoebe, thanks so much for coming on the podcast, and congratulations on all the success with Confessions of a Train It's been awesome seeing it grow, and the consistency is amazing too. So thank you for being on the Daily Talk Show.

Phoebe: Thank you for having me. Congratulations for your 800 episodes. What was that, last week?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was on Friday.

Phoebe: So exciting, so exciting.

Josh: Thanks, baby. See you tomorrow, guys.

Phoebe: Have a good one. Amazing. Thank you so much.

Tommy: See you guys.