Controlling Your Controllables

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 805.

Josh: What's happening, guys? What's going on? Happy hump day, ladies and gentlemen.

Tommy: Oh yeah, go cheque out GB's, uh, episode with Ryan John. It's out now.

Josh: Yeah, it's just dropped. And also, um, Tully Smyth, Too Much Tully, her podcast dropped yesterday, which is, uh, already causing some controversy.

Tommy: Well, she was having a meltdown yesterday. Will she be doing a, um follow-up ep, do you think?

Josh: Oh, maybe. Who knows?

Tommy: I think she's—

Josh: I mean, I just took one sort of second glimpse into the world of the reality TV shows. The blow-up is literally a guy she had on her podcast, Too Much Tully, is the bad boy at the moment on a reality show. And I usually don't enter into it because I'm not 5 and I don't want to feel like I'm back in high school again. But I just watched a short clip from Bachelor in Paradise and wowee, have they got some fucking fresh out of VCA editors on that job. It's just like they just don't give a shit. They're taking audio from an interview probably done in a house, mixing it with audio that's recorded out on the beach, and you can clearly hear the difference and they're clearly stitching together bits to make people just sound like absolute flogs.

Tommy: At that point, it's just a multimedia art piece, isn't it?

Josh: It has become. It's a collage. It's like you look at a collage and you go, oh well, it's a bit shit. It's just shit, you know, stuck together. But then you can go, oh well, it's kind of art. At that point, it's the most bizarre thing ever. Anyway, that was what consumed me.

Tommy: So anyway, yeah, Tully was worried that she didn't come across as if she was supporting women, which she is. And so she was freaking out about that. But what we're saying is the great thing about having a podcast is you can just come on the next episode and say, hey guys, I just want to clarify a few things. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I mean, is there anything you need to clarify at the moment? Is there anything you've been sort of spewing, getting across?

Tommy: Oh no, I was hoping that you would coach me today. Really?

Josh: You're feeling flat, mate?

Tommy: Yeah, I was like, I was thinking, I was like, well, I just feel like I've got And I'm not going to cry today like I did on episode 6 because I haven't had a drink.

Josh: Well, I mean, can that be your new thing? Can you be the cry guy?

Tommy: The cry guy. You're very annoying when you don't want to be the cry guy and you are the cry guy. Like, there is something nice about, mate, I can't bloody watch a movie without crying. There's that guy. And then like, there's the other one, which is like, you're not that guy, but you're still crying. When it's not a brand value, it's a normal—

Josh: I think being emotional is great. Like, I think it's, uh, I'm definitely more emotional since having Bodhi and being married and just, fuck, it's a control, it's a control thing though, right?

Tommy: Like, you want to— if you're, if you're doing a speech or something, or if you're talking, like, you want to sort of be in control with your, you know, what you're doing. But, you know, no, I just feel like I'm just a little bit fucking depressed today.

Josh: So yeah, have you gone for a walk? No, no, walks are lovely, you know, you know, you know the remedy. I mean, but what's—

Tommy: I went for a walk yesterday. Yeah, um, with Jack Post, but I still felt like— I felt good straight after it, but fuck, I was just a bit exhausted by last night. I think it's that classic thing of like, I always want to sleep, I just feel like sleeping, but then I get into bed— I go to bed the latest Like, so it's this weird thing of like, fuck, all I want to do is sleep, but I'm just gonna like go to bed at 11 o'clock and then I'm just gonna scroll on my phone just to, just to make sure, just to see if anything's happening online.

Josh: Well, it's a choose your own adventure. You can answer the two follow— uh, you can answer one of the two following questions: what's the biggest challenge for you? Or you can take the other route, which is less coach-like, and it's just, what are you most grateful for at the moment? In the last— in the—

Tommy: you know, what are you grateful for? Challenge. I did ask to be coached.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. What's—

Tommy: no, the challenge is having a high expecta— like, having high expectations and then, like, trying to understand. So Nathan Chan from Founder Magazine talked about, uh, the advice he got around controlling your controllables. And I'm not completely sure which things I can control at the moment and which I can't.

Josh: What are some controllables that you've landed on?

Tommy: I just, I think that like, so, like there's obviously like a bunch of ambiguity at the moment with COVID And so, it's trying to work out, like we've got big dreams of what we want to do, but then I think that there's less surety in— like, there just has to be. Like, I just feel like even when you're having conversations, there's always been the opportunity or the, the potential of something happening or things not working out. But you could have a conversation with people and sell in something, and that sort of people buy it and understand it. But now that there is COVID you can't just get away with saying, hey, this is what we want to do for the future. It's like, but is it really going to happen? So I don't know, like, I think that the, the challenge is in, um, yeah, knowing part of its expectations, part of it's like, okay, where I want to— where I expect us to be, where I want us to be, where I expect us to be going. But then also trying to take the foot off the pedal a little bit. And I'm like, what would it be like to have a day of not having that energy? Like almost like a holiday type of thing for a day.

Josh: Does it serve you, the energy? Does it serve the mission? Does it serve your—

Tommy: Well, I think it has served. So, I think that like it's this very fine line. It's almost like a cliff. And it serves. But now, like, I think that it does, it does take a bit of a, a bit more energy, if that makes sense.

Josh: At the moment, it can take a toll, or it can take— it requires a level of energy. Um, and so in terms of the controllables, if you brought it back to you, what do you— what are your controllables outside? Because you talked externally, sort of people and people's views on vision or the future, because everyone, everyone's battling with the version of what the fuck's the future look like for themselves. What are the, what are the things that you can control from, uh, the bedroom without speaking to anybody? Like, from you?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I get it. And I think that that's the annoying thing with this stuff, is that we all, like, we've had— we've spoken to enough great people, we've read enough awesome books to understand that it's just like getting up, saying, you know, it's going to be a great day, making it happen, and then just simplifying, writing out that list, saying, okay, this is, this is what is going to, um, happen today. But I think that there is also something in, uh, when you're, when you're feeling this way of like, I just can't be fucked doing anything, like, so then it becomes hard, like the depressive— even though I'm not, I've got no diagnosis, and I fucking love a good self-diagnosis, but from what people have told me, from that depressive state perspective, is it's like things become hard. The easy becomes hard. And so the easy thing of just fucking getting up and doing this sort of stuff, that's the hard stuff.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, how crazy is it that Like, I reckon I've got out of the house when I've needed to exercise and felt so shit and sad. You could almost start running while you're crying, and I reckon by the time you can get a kilometre down the road, you'd shift your state. And I'm like, it's pissed off, even angry. Like, if you just started running, imagine if that was your new thing. You're at work and you just get angry and you just fucking running, you just start running out the door because it will Shift it. But like you said, the easy thing— hey, go for a walk. It's like, fuck, it's like, that is easy. And so there's the version of when that becomes difficult, the thing that you like doing.

Tommy: Do you know who we should— do you know who we should get on? We should get an ex, uh, swimmer, like an Olympic swimmer, because I feel like this COVID stuff— not comparing myself to an Olympian But if you imagine being an Olympic swimmer, I feel like this has happened so many times. An Olympian, they've got everything dialled in. It's sort of like they do their training and then they need to have a life after sport. And then they go off the rails and start taking drugs and get super depressed.

Josh: I think your, I mean, your approach, like, think about probably 3 weeks ago. You were on a high in just in terms of your view on what we're doing and everything. The team, like, it felt great. And, and I was vibing your energy. That you could look at that and say most people weren't there based on the new lockdown and, you know, head going fucking back into that dark space. And so you, you do have the ability to, to be the light in that darkness. But it's, you know, and then it's just—

Tommy: but I think that that maybe is part of it. Like, I think that so I can be sold in, I think that what I'm feeling is maybe the pressure on my shoulders for everyone else. And so I think that that's where, like, so controlling your controllables, if you're just thinking about yourself and just thinking about, then it becomes quite easy. But I think that it's everything, like, just thinking about fucking all different people and what that— like, how are we doing this? How are we doing that? What's happening here? How's everyone feeling within the team? What's it like? I just think that it's, um, yeah, I, I think that that's—

Josh: it's hard because you can't control— you can't control everyone's feelings about the time. And so, and that's why it's like, you know, we want to hang around people that, that make us feel great.

Tommy: And you Usually, and everyone does, but I think that it's just, I think that it's a, it's just trying to understand of when it's that thing of like how, like, say if, uh, Bree's not feeling well or she's had a bad day, knowing when just to listen, like when your job is just to listen versus actually try and figure out and coach through the problem. And I think that maybe yeah, I'm spending too much time or energy trying to find solutions to absolutely everything.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And, and so when, when you say the coaching thing, I need to be coached today, it's also like, do you need to be coached? Like, is it something— like, I understand it's like when Amy— like you're saying with Bri, it's like when Amy brings something to me, I fucking want to solve that thing.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But sometimes the chat, like What's your observation on, uh, times like this where you want— where you're speaking to somebody and you— do you want them to actually challenge you or, you know, question you about what's going on? Do you think that serves?

Tommy: Well, I think that it's— I think like the language questioning has like some negative connotations, or it's sort of— it's the same sort of combative, because I think it's just like uncovering stuff. So how do you get someone— and maybe that's what that you talk about with the psychologist, that's what they're doing, is it's like identifying, okay, like, let's put it all out there, um, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

Josh: Well, and sometimes the, the, the value in it is when you don't actually know what they're trying to do or what, what they're— they're just asking you to talk to specific things, and then there's a moment where the penny drops and you're great at connecting the dots, but sometimes you don't know what dots you need to connect until someone presents them for you. What do you think? What's the biggest challenge for you?

Tommy: I think it's just focus. I think there's too many too many things I'm thinking about in a single day.

Josh: And then, and then it's become that, that the focus is so spread, or the focus becomes too many things.

Tommy: And so, well, yeah, I think that when it becomes so many things, when you're trying to do so many things, you feel like you're not making any progress and you're just having all of this. It's just like you're going from one conversation to the next conversation, you're dipping in and out, and you felt like it's like exhausting, but then it doesn't necessarily feel like you've made progress.

Josh: Yeah, that requires a focus, but there's a difference between— can you even say focus when you're talking about multiple things, or is focus purely one? I'm not sure what the— well, I think that like focus to a task, so you've got, you know, you're doing an edit and you're hyper in the moment thinking about one thing. You've got tasks.

Tommy: I think I'm looking at it more on sort of the macro level, which is focus. All of these little things add up to one big focus.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so I think that there's, um, yeah, potentially, yeah, too many, um, yeah, I don't know, I just, I think that like, so I spoke about on, um, Monday, how I went through and did that list, wrote out everything, and Monday was like a really solid day. Yeah. Um, Sean—

Josh: Sean has written the comments and said whenever he feels like he's in a similar position, he always asks himself the same thing: what's one thing I can change now that will make tomorrow better? Which is hard because it doesn't necessarily feel like it will make tomorrow better if you change one thing today.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think that part of it too maybe is like the radical, like as you said, like I feel awesome, like so last, like 2 weeks ago or whatever, like feeling really good and got it worked out. And so having the contrast, like I think that part of it is just recognising that this, like this is how I operate, it goes like, very high sort of functioning, getting heaps done, dragging everyone along, being like, come on, let's do it. This is what we're doing. But then, but I think that that's also potentially from a team perspective. Like, I think if we look at the last couple of years with us, we have had that naturally where it's you're feeling great, I'm not feeling great, you're not feeling great, I'm feeling great. Like, it oscillates. And probably you're further along now, potentially feeling a little bit better than what you were.

Josh: Um, I mean, from the start of the week where I announced that I have stopped drinking, it's, it's interesting that like, it's— I feel like if there was ever a, you know, metaphor for I flicked a switch, it feels like that when, when I make a decision. And then, um, that— I mean, it's a, it's a funny thing because that's all on me that could shift something externally and for the people around me. But that's me making that choice. And so, I mean, it's fucking hard though. Like, it takes a lot.

Tommy: It's also the holiday thing. Like, I've gone on a holiday every single year for the past 10 years or whatever, every June, July It's like going sort of US or, you know, Europe or whatever and doing summer. And so, I think potentially just rolling in at the moment, there isn't that. So, typically it's like, at least I know I'm like in this time, I'm going to be away and I'll be able to reset. And that's enough energy to be like, I've got enough fuel in the tank to be able to do that. Whereas right now, it feels like we've got a certain amount of fuel in the tank, but we don't know exactly where the destination is or where we're— where it could— like, we have a direction, we know where we want to go from a direction perspective, we're very clear on the compass, but we don't know if it's a straight line there or if it's a fucking 7-year road, you know. Like, and the thing, and so there's that anxiety around like, how much fuel do we have?

Josh: And the refuelling comes for you when you take time or you have a holiday or— Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think that it just, it removes the pressure for a moment. It provides perspective. I think at the moment it's like, how do I find any perspective Um, from— so for instance, yeah, normally there's a, a bunch of different ways that you can find perspective. Like, that's what I guess like weekends are great for, or even like switching off in the real sense of going from one place to another. But at the moment it's just like a bit of a constant on.

Josh: And what are some other ways to find perspective if, if What's off the table is weekends. We really can't do much. They feel like the same as the week almost. Holidays are off the table for a little while. Is there, is there any other things that shift perspective for you that in the past?

Tommy: Um, yeah, I think that that's what I'm trying to uncover. Like, so for some it's the, yeah, it's the project thing. It could be, um But even that is the fucking exhausting stuff, right? Like, me trying to figure out how I'm going to switch off or get perspective is like I'm thinking about it to a point of, you know, it's, it's almost like, um, paralysis. Yeah, it feels like we're fucking— not to be too hyperbolic, but if you're imagining that you're in a fucking war and you're not quite sure how they're going to hit you. You don't know if it's fucking coming from the sky, you don't know if it's coming from the sea, you don't know if it's internally. And so then you start checking everything, and it's like you fucking— you're running around the island being like, are we set up here? Are we? And then you're making calls around, oh, you know what, probably in the evenings it would be more likely to come from air, so let's switch up our thing there. And then it's like, oh, hang on, but it's like, what's the weather doing? Oh, the weather's here, so we should maybe, maybe they could come from sea. And so, I think that it's a constant, and I'm not even fucking consuming the news. I've taken off, this is me taking off the table anything that the Premier says every single day. So, it's not like a news cycle thing for me.

Josh: And so, the I mean, the habit thing, has it worked for you in the past for like the books that you've read? Like if you had to work out something that you needed to do, because it sounds like it's more of a needing to take action on something to shift the internal state, because you're saying you could think yourself and it just makes it— you could think so hard about it, which doesn't really bring on change. We can't think ourselves out of holes.

Tommy: Well, yeah, I think that it's like, um, for me, I feel like I need to give myself a break. Like, I need to allow, um, I don't think I've allowed properly. So there's been like a tiny bit of procrastination, but for the most part, I've been very just dialled in doing stuff. I think for me, it's like I need to be more specific around I'm not fucking doing anything. Like, I'm not thinking about this stuff because even it's— I see the, the, you know, moving forward. So it's like, uh, on the weekend, you know, spending, you know, hours learning stuff and researching. I see the benefit, I see that it moves forward, but then the concern is that it's like if then midweek you're not feeling, you're feeling, um, burnt out It's a bit of a, bit of an issue.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, because that intensity on a weekend of diving in, as much as it can feel like, yeah, it's productive, it's interesting because you're working out where it fits in the equation overall. And so it's about, yeah, I mean, it's one of the hardest things to, in quote, quotation marks, switch off. It's It's super hard. How do you switch off? Like genuinely?

Tommy: Well, I don't think I do. I think that that's the thing that I'm trying to figure out. And I don't necessarily— And the funny thing is with holidays is I fucking— Unless I'm doing something, unless it's a city and I'm around stuff and doing stuff, I'm not necessarily— Like I'm not a beach holiday guy. So, I like doing stuff. I like the stimulus of constantly connecting dots. But it's—

Josh: And so, when you say if you're travelling and you're— It's input, it's high input based on stimulus from your surroundings.

Tommy: Yeah, I think that part of it might be research. I think I've just got too many balls in the air potentially. Like, I think that— So, if I'm like hyper-focused on a thing or a definition, I don't think I've got like any real clear definition of done at the moment. There are these ongoing projects. Where it's like you don't know when you're going to become an expert at this or expert at that.

Josh: Um, I think it's the pain of someone building a business or some— trying to build something. It's because you could, uh, you could ask the question, if you just did one thing and, you know, strip back the focus and did one thing, sure, other things will drop off and not have the attention that you previously gave them, But if you did one thing, what would it be? And what would it—

Tommy: Well, yeah, I think that like for me, I even think about the, um, like Friday night drinks and all of that sort of stuff. Like for me, stepping back and making that decision around like, hey, let's dial back all of that stuff, was me identifying a thing that wasn't— that was making me too tweaked and thinking too much and working stuff out. And so getting rid of that helped. And so now I think it's just, um, I think that the problem is that I pride myself on being a communicator. And so what I'm doing at the moment is every single time there's a problem or an issue or I sense something from someone, I want to talk it out. But everyone seems to have a fucking problem at the moment, and every— like, everyone's not sure. And so I'm trying to commu— and I'm not necessarily sure on certain things. And so I'm spending all of my time being like, the, the weapon of choice for me is communication, but then I'm fucking spending hours at a time chatting, talking it through, trying to create alignment, and but then I'm not feeling like it's reso— I don't feel any closer than what I was before.

Josh: Yeah, because the exhaustion coming from those emotional conversations. Emotion being whatever, you know, different for every convo, but they are exhausting. So that's like a— it's a parent level that you— I could imagine a parent with 5 kids feeling the pressure of managing 5 people and, and feeling just like, fuck, fuck, fuck, just trying to make everyone happy, trying to make sure everyone's communicating. I empathise with that.

Tommy: And because you can see it though too, right? Like, I think that there is an intuitive nature where it's like, okay, when you're seeing different people, but even like outside of work and friendships, like seeing friends struggling and thinking, okay, I want to help. What's my responsibility in helping? Like, is this helping? Is this hindering? What do they need? How can I— like, all of those things I find quite exhausting.

Josh: We, we spoke on Monday around my rule of removing alcohol, and you, you know, spoke to how rules you think are something very powerful. If there was a rule for you to implement that would— you think would bring some change, what would it be?

Tommy: Yeah, um, yeah, I'm not sure. I think that there's something in Yeah, there's something in simplifying and focus, or just identifying the battle that I'm willing to enter into. I think that I feel like I'm at that state of anything, anytime, you know, just anytime I see something, I'm like, okay, I need to respond to that. And so I think it's, uh, the control your controllables bit. I feel like there's a piece of work in identifying all of your controllables and then cutting it in half and then looking at what controllable will have the biggest impact.

Josh: And then even identifying the things that you feel like you don't have control of I get— I mean, this is just— I think that what you said was great. And then because there's also like, if you feel out of control in a specific area, does that mean that it can't be controlled?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think that it's, um, it feels like during a pandemic the controllables become very novel. So, the controllables are what time you wake up or how, you know, those types of things, right? Like they're very, very— They're not like big exciting things. They're really what time you go to bed.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Not having your phone on, like after, after, you know, 8 PM. Like those are controllables. Yeah.

Josh: What you're consuming, what you're eating. I mean, this is— these are like human needs at this point, like human requirements. It's like connection, fuel, food, movement, sleep. So, you know, these are highly relatable that I think there'd be a bunch of patterns that have built up in people in the last 6 months, 4 months from the pandemic that, yeah, need some resetting.

Tommy: I watched, um, Three Identical, uh, Strangers on Monday night.

Josh: Did you like it?

Tommy: Yeah, it's great.

Josh: Well made.

Tommy: Yeah, trying to find good documentaries, I think that's a good way of switching off. But the thing is that part of it is like to switch up, like I'm like before I'm watching, I'm like, now if I could like, what's this? Like from a content perspective, I almost need like filters. Like I can't watch So even for me, like the Frozen behind-the-scenes doco thing, I'm looking at their processes and their systems and how are they doing things and what could we be doing. And it's like, it's even the things that could be enjoyable, I feel like I've got that, like, that sort of lens of like, oh, how can we use it, or how can we win the war with this. And so Yeah, it's, um, I think it is.

Josh: Think about the people that read books that are just about nothing, worlds that don't exist, and fiction. And you just like— I think a lot of people who are probably similar to you and I are like, what's that bringing to my life? What's that adding to it? It's not helping me learn something. But there is a great skill in being able to do things that are to just take time off from connecting to the other shit. And so it can feel, I think the challenge is that it doesn't feel productive, but think about the productivity in disconnecting. That's so high. It's huge.

Tommy: Yeah. And that's what people do with like the cooking or, you know, like finding those types of things. I think they're really good.

Josh: Yeah. Mr. 97 was down the park kicking the soccer ball. I mean, that's cute as fuck because he's with his girlfriend. Oh, and I just thought about— it was so funny you said that to me. I was like, oh fuck, I remember doing that.

Tommy: What it would be to be a kid again. I know, I know.

Josh: To think you can go— during work hours too. What the fuck? No, but just for me, just throwing the frisbee, getting out and like, it's being out.

Tommy: So I called Mason the other day, he was in his cubby house. Yeah, it's like, mate, sorry, I can't do the FaceTime, I'm in the pit. I don't want to get sand on my— but look at the castle I made. That's good. Yeah, that's important.

Josh: I mean, the thing about physical— so outside of— I don't think meditation and, and, and is the same as being in the zone while you're playing tennis or kicking the soccer ball. They're slightly different things, but the qualities that are similar are an extreme focus on something that it requires your focus to do it, which distracts you from your thought. And so The hard bit about, I think what you're saying is that it's extreme thinking, it's extreme cerebral noise that is causing the feeling for you. And so what are the things that you could sort of just, I mean, it's distraction really, it's like that take you out of that. So watching a doco where you have that filter of fucking deconstructing it, I can't watch something without thinking about how they've edited it and how much bullshit it is. And so, or the storey's not great or whatever it is, I have that. And so, that doesn't come when I do other activities that I'm not doing enough of.

Tommy: Well, I think the reading is good. Like, I think that the cop-out with the audiobook is the audiobook means I can do other stuff.

Josh: And you think, you think about other stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm thinking about it, like, but I think that the process of reading the book Maybe here's an announcement for the 29th. Organised August is back.

Josh: Oh my God. I mean, the guy's just throwing— he literally thought about it right then and then just announced it right then and had claps.

Tommy: Felt good. I felt like if we learned anything, announcements have cut through. But Organised August is back, and part of Organised August being back is Book Club is back.

Josh: Yeah, but I think just before you go deep, you're going to now be thinking about the anxiety of getting people involved. Like, you need to just pull up—

Tommy: Straight away, I'm actually canceling— I'm worried about the bookshop because I'm worried about everyone getting their books.

Josh: I've just cancelled Organized August, and it's called Josh's Month of Movement. I don't know, Josh's Month of Mindfulness. Josh's month of— Make a month about you. Don't make it about book club for other people.

Tommy: It's fine. I'll just read a bit. I'll just read a book and— I'll just read a book. That's a good idea. But Organise August, that did really well last year.

Josh: Yeah, I do like it. I do like it. Have a think about it.

Tommy: I feel like people need Organise August at the moment.

Josh: Yeah. Jackie says, can absolutely relate to all of this. The exhaustion and constant burnout feeling is a real struggle. At the moment, which is— Yeah, I mean, have you experienced burnout before? I feel—

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that that was the— Bri and I went away for like, we did a 4-month trip, and it was like me leaning into burnout beforehand. We got, we got a nice, uh, email from Anonymous. She said, hi, Gronks, I just thought I would drop you a line and let you know how much I enjoy the show. I started listening a couple of months ago and look forward to popping up— it popping up in my feed every day. Rarely miss a day. By day, I'm a 30-something litigation lawyer doing technical building and construction law disputes, and it's really cool to listen to you guys on my way home talking about creative shit, and it gives me some perspective on things. And otherwise, just banter. It feels like you're my mates in my ears. I've been going through a bit, uh, of serious shit mental health-wise recently, which has meant some time in hospital, and your podcast genuinely helped me get through it. And so that was super nice.

Josh: So nice. Um, it's, um, yeah, I mean, I think we're all feeling it. I, from Monday's episode about alcohol, I've had a bunch of people— Chris, Glyn, Ian Traynor reach out to me, just, you know, and a bunch of other people just sort of understanding and dealing with their own version of something. And, um, and yeah, I mean, what we're definitely not alone is in, is in dealing with shit.

Tommy: Yeah, it feels so like— I think that part of it was I was like, so in traditional media as a sort of a presenter or as a sort of an announcer, radio announcer, it's your job to sort of bring a, bring a vibe or sort of be that escape. I think that what, what's different about what we're doing is we have the opportunity of being like, oh, you know what, we're all in this shared experience, and then let's talk about actually how we're feeling, because then I think that there's probably a bunch of people listening who are like, oh, fuck this. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. And then it's like, oh, if you know that other people are fucked as well, you don't feel so bad.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, all in it together. Who sung that song? We're all in.

Tommy: Was it Ben Lee?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, he's Australian. Is he Australian? I thought he was English for some reason.

Tommy: I think he lives in the US. I follow him on Instagram.

Josh: Yeah, same. Oh, is that the Daily Talk Show?

Tommy: Maybe the Daily Talk Show does. I did a cull the other day, by the way. Did you? Got rid of all your fucking, um, any celebrities that super right-leaning sort of—

Josh: Ben Shapiro got the cut, didn't he?

Tommy: Um, we've got it down to— I want us to get down to, um, following over 1,000. It was just too many. But you, you're, um, I think that you got too happy on the follow.

Josh: I don't know. I mean, there's a few people that have that.

Tommy: Are you following regularly? Are you— is that a— is that a thing? No, no, no, no.

Josh: I watch it. I watch it. I, um, I mean, it's quite easy to get to the thou. I think Ryan Johns at about 7,000 following, he's following 7,000 people.

Tommy: It's not too many. I mean, at that point, can you enjoy Instagram?

Josh: I know. Yeah, that is the interesting bit. How's it curating your feed anyway?

Tommy: Be a nightmare.

Josh: One thing we definitely don't need is more Instagram. I mean, what is the thought about doing less? Not, I mean, what's the—

Tommy: I did, I got off social media. I get it. But I guess the problem is that—

Josh: That's a rule that needs—

Tommy: So, yeah. So, what I identified though, that it's like it does serve someone doing a podcast. If you've got a podcast, it is very beneficial to have social media. And not doing that, I think, is— I think that it's a very unique case unless you are Matt Tilley, who is a radio announcer from the '90s who can make bank through being a breakfast show in a capital city. Like, unless you are that, um, in 2020, I don't know I don't know where that sort of fits.

Josh: Yeah, I guess. But then that same thinking was— I agree with you. You look at Barefoot Investor, doesn't do shit on social media.

Tommy: Doesn't have internet at the farm, does he?

Josh: Yeah, probably not. But he has his email subscribers, he has his community, he's written the books and does his thing. Not saying that you were looking to be a version of him, or Matt Diavella, who I appreciate for having taken the first year or two years of his YouTube channel and made it the focus outside of his Instagram that built— that has organically built by— not organically, but it's built off the back of him focusing on one thing. And so the, the trick, the, the where we go wrong, I feel, is, um, convincing ourselves that you have to do everything to win. And because it is right and it is wrong, because there are some people that have done everything and win, and it wins. But what happens if you do everything and you win? What is that expectation?

Tommy: What will—

Josh: what is the world that creates?

Tommy: But what about if you focus and you win? I was even thinking about Diavella, and I'm like, the— he's found a very specific niche or nuance or like a specific area that he's focusing in on. And I'm catching up with him with Monopoly on Sunday, so I'll ask him and I'll report back. But I have a feeling that it must be fucking hard for him right now, just like it is for everyone. But I think that as a creator, you can see just even without speaking to him every day, just seeing posting and seeing that like just the grind of like, for someone who is so consistent, so persistent, so committed to the craft and the process and all that sort of thing. I think that that focus can be also quite hard during this time.

Josh: Yeah, definitely. I guess it's—

Tommy: Do you feel, do you actually feel that? Like, how do you, like, if you were to deconstruct that?

Josh: No, no, I do. I think, I think to have any version of success requires some kind of tweakness to you, because the easier option is to do fucking nothing and not create and not put stuff out and be at home. And just— I feel like I want to do that sometimes because I feel like that's the easiest go-to. That's why I feel like alcohol for me is too easy for me to get to a place of pleasure. Like, it's too easy. And so there's—

Tommy: yeah, and I agree. I think that that's, that's the struggle that I'm feeling, is I'm like, there is something in— there is moments where you catch yourself and you're like, oh, none of this really matters. And then when you think about none of this mattering, then like, I think that the only reason we've gotten as far as we have is we thought that. And so like, I read that email because I'm like are like, we are having an impact and what we're doing does matter to some people.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. But then if you just— what I mean, if you do the math on pulling back 30% across everything, if we just did the podcast each day and posted once on social media, would it be the same as being stressed and trying to do everything always and always on?

Tommy: And I think the hard thing that what we're— I think what we're experiencing is it's like 80% of our stress is making it work financially through all of our other business stuff. And so for me, if anything, the show is the outlet, it's the sweetener, but then bringing everything else into it, being like, okay, we're doing video product— like, you know, video production is our bread and butter. Having shoots, having shoots that are, you know, worth tens of thousands of dollars, moving around all the time, having all of these things that happen. It's like, that's the, um, that's the pain point at the moment, right? The pain point is it's like, uh, the, the engine that we're using to fund all of this, to make it happen, is getting hit. Like, if anything the podcast is like thriving. The podcast can continue and it can do really well. And so there's almost a separation that needs to happen too around the show and what we're doing here, which like, that's why I think I was fired up. Like, when I'm fired up, it's when I'm like, I see the opportunity of providing connection and all of that sort of thing in a time like now this is the— this is what podcasting is designed for. But then there's also just those realities of the, the day-to-day, getting that engine continuing and working.

Josh: Um, that's— I mean, good thought. And so do you circle— do you, do you— because they can blend, the feelings can blend between what we do here on this show and then what we're trying to do outside of the show that people don't see. Um, is there some kind of energy that's going to the other thing that people don't see that's falling into the show and then it's like muddling the thing and needs to have a circle around it to say—

Tommy: well, I think that, yeah, I, I just, I think that because we are communicate— doing a show that's about us and all that sort of thing, it's these conversations are important. I think that that's actually what gives us the depth. If we were just in the position of we could just do a podcast, we'd probably have lost touch with what's actually going on because we wouldn't have had the pain point. But I think that we've got the unique situation where it's like the day-to-day grind of trying to figure it all out we're not in a like super privileged position where we can just do the show and that's it. But it is, um, yeah, if you look back at, you know, us going to 2 days a week and doing all of that sort of thing, for me that was easier based on a single focus. I could really focus on it. I could learn, like, focus on the tech, focus on, you know, all of those elements. But then I guess when you've got all of these other things there's a bit of whiplash that's going on where it's like, need to be fucking writing back to clients, doing all of that sort of thing. And so it feels like having a couple of jobs.

Josh: Yeah, it's definitely the way. I mean, but it's for the future. It's— is it the sacrifice?

Tommy: Yeah. And that's the thing. That's why I'm like, that's why I'm wary of talking about it, because it's like it can come across as just being a bit of a bitch about it all and just like complaining. And like, I know that we have it. Really good. And so that's the whole thing. But I, I think that the mental health stuff, the, the challenges don't discriminate. It happens to everyone no matter where you are in your journey. And so I think that it's probably— there'll be a bunch of people who it disconnects with. There might be people who it's like they don't get it. And so everything's relative. If you're worry— for me, I'm not worried about a job. I always know that I can find work and I can do that and like all of that. But for me, the challenge is something a bit different.

Josh: Yeah, and, and it's— it, it takes time to work that out and then apply the focus to how you look after yourself. And so that's what you're doing. Appreciate I appreciate you sharing rather than just, you know, bringing in and distract— and distracting yourself from these feelings based on just like we can do, just have a conversation about whatever.

Tommy: Thank you. If you want to send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. How are you going? Uh, we love getting your emails. Thank you, Ian, as well for your email. And he's, uh, he's always, um It's great. Thank you. Shana also DM'd me about our episode with Phoebe from yesterday, which is lovely.

Josh: Great.

Tommy: But, um, yeah, great. Enjoy the rest of your day, everyone, and we'll see you tomorrow. Have a good one.

Josh: See you guys.