Rami Ykmour On Building RASHAYS

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 785.

Tommy: Welcome into the studio, Rami Iqmor.

Josh: Hey buddy, welcome, welcome.

Tommy: Thanks for coming on the show, mate.

Rami: Thank you guys, thank you for having me, mate.

Tommy: Um, first podcast, you were just saying. This is, uh, welcome.

Josh: Yeah, welcome to the world. Welcome to—

Rami: Matt, honestly guys, I've never done a podcast before, never listened to one, so I'm a virgin in so many ways.

Josh: Here you go. I mean, so take it easy on me.

Rami: Me.

Josh: No, we will, we will. I mean, you are a seasoned professional in entrepreneurship. Um, how do you explain what you do in 2020, mate?

Rami: Um, how do I explain what I do in 2020? But I'll just get up and go about my day. But, um, it's been very challenging, I guess, with COVID-19 and all the rest of it. So it's, um, it's changed me as a person. It's changed me as a— it changed the way I think in business, to be honest with you.

Tommy: Well, I know a few people that have restaurant, a restaurant. You've got about 30. Is it— how many, how many have you actually got?

Rami: More than 30? Yeah, 30 restaurants up and down the East Coast. So yeah, things are different because different states have different laws and all the rest of it. So it's been very, very challenging with what's going on at the moment.

Tommy: This morning we were just chatting about something that happened in January. Josh was on a podcast and it feels like it was legit 2 years ago with everything that's happened. What did your January, January look like? And, and what was your sort of mission then and how much has it changed since?

Rami: Yeah, so January, I guess we're going about a normal year, you know, which it's going to be. We're looking forward to 2020. Everything was going to be— we had plans, we had plans to open up in New Zealand, um, you know, grow a little bit more. And then, yeah, so it was January, was another— it looked like another January. It was, it was fine.

Tommy: And I mean, that's where it's— you can't— you'd never know that this would be the case. And so, um, Roches, your restaurants, they're, they're flying along., and then all of a sudden COVID hits. And I mean, were you in denial that it was going on? I mean, a lot of business owners were like, oh, we've got to push forward, so let's just see how it plays out. How did you approach COVID?

Rami: Mate, look, when it first started, like, you know, when COVID, you know, started coming up with the news and started thinking, oh my God, how can this affect us? How— what's going to happen? Absolute denial. You're right, you don't want to know, you don't want to face the truth. And then I guess it all come to a head. It was, it was true. I remember on Friday night, so the Friday, so we shut down on a Monday, that was when dining stopped as of midday. Dining Monday, I think, is the 23rd or 21st or something of March. But I remember on Friday thinking, I was out on Friday actually, I was out on the town, and I remember just going, you know, things were a little bit quieter, things were different. I'm thinking, come Monday, man, there's going to be a different world.

Josh: Yeah. And so what was the first communication that you had to all of— so is it a franchise that you run? Like, can you give us a sense of the structure and where you sort of fit in at all?

Rami: Absolutely. So like, I'm the founder of the business. I've got a CEO. I've got a whole, you know, we've got a whole structure in place. But when COVID, like when I started thinking COVID, I knew it was something, it was going to be different. It was no longer up to CEOs and things like that. So So being the founder, I made sure I was here on Monday. I knew there was a big decision to be made once, because what I was waiting on— so New Zealand, if we look at New Zealand, New Zealand went into full lockdown, but they actually, um, they forced their restaurants to close down. So they didn't give an option to the restaurants to stay open for, for anything. That is it, you have to close down, end of story. So what I, what I started playing in my head over the weekend, I started playing in my head, if they keep us open, I'm gonna convert our restaurants into our pickup and delivery business. Um, so I started playing that in my head, that— and that's sort of where I come from. So I come from the Pizza Hut world, Domino's world. So I guess it wasn't going to be— it wasn't going to be too hard of a transition in my head.

Josh: When you say you come from those worlds, I mean, I come from those worlds in a different way. I'm a customer, you know, I buy— what does that mean that you come from those worlds?

Rami: Yeah, yeah, I'm fair course. I started— so I started my journey, I guess, in the workplace as a Pizza Hut driver back in '93. So I was doing my HSC and knew I was failing miserably. So I go, you know, I better go and find myself a job, uh, run myself a cut.

Tommy: Was this the days of Dougie, the TV personality that was on the Pizza Hut ads?

Rami: Mate, Dougie, Dougie was my favorite. Yep, absolutely. It was Dougie, man. It was Dougie.

Tommy: Did you meet Dougie?

Rami: Never got to meet Dougie, but, um, yeah, there was a lot of Dougies working for us. Were you a Dougie?

Josh: Can we call you Dougie?

Rami: You can call me a Dougie.

Josh: And so you were doing that. So did you work your way up or like you mentioned Domino's there, how does this all come about?

Rami: Yeah, man. So just briefly, so I started delivering pizzas and worked my way up through management, all the rest of it. And then I finished with the Pizza Hut stint and then I opened a couple of Domino's franchises. So I got to learn a little bit about the franchising world and about how pickup and delivery and that side of the world works.

Josh: With franchises, Tommy and I were talking about this the other day. When should you get involved as a franchisee versus when should you just go out on your own and open up a shop with your own brand?

Rami: Man, it's interesting. People get into franchising, like franchisees go and see a franchisor for a franchise for easy money. So really, man, it depends.

Josh: Look, why did you do it?

Rami: It's a hard— why did I franchise originally?

Josh: Yeah, like why did you get into like say Domino's and things like that? Yeah, exactly.

Rami: Yeah, I thought, look, I got into it for the right reasons. I got into it because I wanted to make Domino's a bigger brand at the time. I was committed to the, you know, I work from the heart, so I was like committed to making a difference to that brand. And I wanted to make a difference from the, what I understood from Pizza Hut to take to Domino's. But when I got into the system, I realised that that's not what it's about. Franchising and franchisors are two different things. It's a different, we're on two different pages.

Tommy: That you didn't have much say or control being a Domino's franchisee or?

Rami: Yeah, there was no control and it was never about the, and being a franchisee and like being the way they treated the franchisees. And this is a whole system, this isn't just us. It's always about the bottom line, bottom line, bottom line. And that's because the way the franchisees sort of put pressure on the franchisor to act, they always put pressure on, you know, the bottom line, bottom line, what is in it for me, what's in it for me, as opposed to what's in it for the whole brand. And as a result, what do I get out of it? So it wasn't, it wasn't a good fit for me.

Tommy: So you shifted Richays into a pickup and delivery across that 3-month lockdown. Yeah, I mean, we're looking at the financials saying this is— we're gonna completely haemorrhage cash here, or are you saying we could have a real business out of this?

Rami: No, no, it was going to be we're going to haemorrhage here. There was no question here. So I had my CEO and CFO saying to me, Rami, we have to close. Look at this, it's going to cost us about $120 grand a week to stay open. I still remember the numbers clearly in my head. And I said to my CFO, who's actually— I'm good friends with— so I said to him, well, best mates, and I said to him, so how long does that mean? How much money do we have in the bank? And he goes, oh mate, we'll do it for about 12 to 15 weeks. I said, let's go, let's try and make the most out of this situation. People are going to close down, let's keep our staff employed. Let's hope, let's hope COVID-19 goes away tomorrow, which we had deep down on you, it wasn't. But it was a matter, let's stay open, let's keep everyone employed because we can't afford to lose 23 years. Because if we close down today, then I've lost 23 years of what I've been building. So yeah, okay, let's go. And in my head was, okay, I'll lose everything. I started with nothing. I'll get up on my feet again. But did I, in the back of my head, think that possibly I could also climb out of this? Yeah, I did. I, you know, I had a bit of hope, but was I certain? The answer was no.

Josh: And so having that experience in the delivery side of things, uh, Uber Eats and all the different services have sort of come up over the last few years. How have you seen those services in the market from an entrepreneurial perspective?

Rami: Sorry, the Uber Eats part you want to know about?

Josh: Yeah, no. So do you, like, are you, as a business owner, do you see Uber Eats as a terrible part for, you know, you're doing the deal with the devil in regards to, you know, you're giving away 30% every single time someone does an order. When should a business play with, say, those big guys versus trying to create their own systems?

Rami: Yeah, well, Uber Eats is— look, it's very convenient. I mean, it's a great— look, they've found a gap in the market and they've been able to utilise it, I guess. But yeah, you're right, it's very, very hard to do business with them. And I guess they don't want to do business with the small player. They focus so much on the big player. I'm sure McDonald's and KFC and all the big brands are not paying the 30-35% So, but yeah, did they force us to get in bed with them during the COVID-19? Yeah, they did.

Josh: They did. So is there a strategy though where it's like, this is temporary? Like I've had like the local Mexican restaurant, every time I get an Uber Eats, they put a card saying, hey, just fucking order direct. And so we'd been doing that through their website. Is there a strategy around that?

Rami: I didn't do anything like that. No way. Of course we did. Of course we did.

Josh: So what we did was— What's their term? Is it like, because I have no idea. I guess Uber Eats can't stop you from doing that.

Rami: Exactly, they can't. I mean, you're delivering what you want. Honestly, legally, I don't know what they could do. If they want to stop me delivering tomorrow, well, good luck to them. They could fuck off. You know, they are— look, the truth is, but they do, they run a— they got a structure where they need to charge 30%. I understand that, but it just doesn't suit the restaurateur. It doesn't suit poor mum and dad. You know, that's the drama. It doesn't suit the industry. Um, but yeah, the strategy was let's place our own cards. That's what we did, and we started our own call center. So I would— I jumped on and got a 13000, 13000 number, so a real nice phone number. Great.

Josh: And yeah, it's very—

Rami: yeah, there you go, promoted again, 13000, 13000. Now, but then what I did was I went out and bought 30 cars. So I went out and bought 30 cars from MG. They were cheap cars. I think I paid about $13,500 for them, and I used the front of house staff. So myself and the franchisees, we used the front of house staff to start delivering food ourselves as opposed to delivering food to the table. I have 30 cars now delivering food to people's houses.

Josh: Wow. So this is in the, like what time period? Like buying 30 cars sounds outrageous.

Tommy: Yeah. Deploy the duggies, get 'em out there.

Rami: Exactly. Exactly. Let's go and find, well, duggies did exist, so that's good. But what happened honestly, man, everything was quick and And because I think the whole— I think that day, like, I feel the vibe. I still, like, I'm looking up in my office right now and the vibe, the vibe was, um, how can I say it? It was like everyone felt like they were in the trenches. So everyone was willing to fight, everyone was willing to jump on and say, what do I need to do? So making decisions was so easy, like, like, and because I was all in, so I had nothing to lose in my eyes. I already, already committed all my money. So it was like simple decisions: buy this, buy that, do that, do this. So everything was— there was no red tape, everything was happening. And the people felt that. My staff, my— the people around me felt that. And they were like, so yeah, so everyone was allowing things to happen really, really quickly, mate. There was— it was unbelievable. Like, we worked here 7 days a week and people were working long hours without asking anyone. It was just— I think it was just the whole vibe of what was going on during that time.

Tommy: What, um, what motivates you? Is it, uh, you know, stress and pressure, or is it, you know, just you're a motivated Vision, vision, mate.

Rami: Just, just motivated, mate. Just, I did like, I've just, yeah, I've just, I, mate, whatever I do in life, I'm always like 100% committed, want, want the best result, want to give it my all. So whether, you know, I'm playing cricket, playing footy, um, drinking at the bar, whatever you want, and I always want to come first, you know what I mean? I'm a, yeah, I'm pretty, I'm very competitive, I guess. I guess it comes from a competitive place, um And maybe the fear of having nothing, that's, that's the biggest thing. I think, I think they've— I grew up with nothing, so the fear of having nothing is sort of, uh, maybe that's sort of, that's in there. And as a result, I'm always wanting to win.

Josh: Being entrepreneurial and working in sort of hospitality, we've heard storeys of the, the big names who have ended up underpaying their staff, or— and I sort of empathise with moving quickly and just having some fuck-ups in the back end, and before you know it, you lose your house and everything. How much of that is on your mind and how do you prepare to make sure that you are doing everything by the book?

Rami: Look, um, this, this has been my biggest success. The biggest success that I've had in the business is that I've always worked to make sure that there can't be stuff-ups like that. You cannot rip people off. That's— once you rip people off, and, uh, in my eyes, you're a thief, and you know what I mean? And then I have a franchise, so you speak about franchising and, sorry, franchisees and people I know recently, 7-Eleven and there's companies out there who underpay their staff. Yeah, look, I don't tolerate any of that. Zero tolerance. Because if you're stealing from your staff, you're stealing from me, the franchisor, you're stealing from your suppliers. It's stealing and you're stealing from a person who's taken home food to his family. Yeah.

Josh: So how do you create a, because I guess part of it is trying to make sure that you, as a business don't shit the bed as well. So how do you sort of mix being generous, paying fairly, but then also watching the bottom line so that you know that you've got longevity?

Rami: It's not an option, Josh. Sorry, mate. Yeah, I get your question, but it's not even considered. It's just you just gotta make sure like, mate, integrity is number one in business. If you haven't got integrity, you can't grow. And I hear what you're saying, you know, you see, and that's why they're the people who grow. That's the truth. If you see a company growing, the founders usually of a company that's grown, there's massive integrity there. You see companies and big names like what you said who don't do the right thing. They're the people who sort of, it's no longer a founder making a decision now, it's CEOs and CFOs and all the rest of it. But I think as long as it's with a founder and he's been able to, but you don't have people working for you for 23 years like myself who sort of like help you grow the brand because you can't do nothing on your own. And unless they see somebody with integrity, yeah, you've got no chance.

Tommy: We had a guest last week that said, you know, successful businesses are just presenting problems in a different way. So it's all the issues that come along with growing from one restaurant to 30. What has been the sort of biggest hurdle for you as a founder along this journey?

Rami: Matt, I'll tell you what, the hardest thing is going from one restaurant to two restaurants, to be honest with you. That was probably the hardest thing. Because once you know how to multiply, it becomes— it's sort of like you work out the system and it becomes a lot easier. So yes, I'll say to you, from 1 to 2 has probably been the hardest. And then, then you get to a certain number now, like, you know, you get around the 20, 25, you know, it's sort of, sort of— it's just all multiplying. You become— you learn the skills as you go. I guess where it gets a little bit harder, where it's more challenging now, when we go interstate, you know, Queensland, ACT, and you start having different laws and different different guidelines that sort of, even when you speak about payroll, even if you go back a little bit, there's different, you have to work on different, with different, what's the name, systems.

Josh: Yeah. Tommy and I are always walking past cafes or restaurants and we're doing the numbers in our heads and we see quiet, even before COVID you see sort of it's not full, there's not many people. And then you work out, okay, that lease, what's that worth? What are they paying their staff? How do you create a successful hospo business when it comes to the dollars and cents?

Rami: Yeah, look, I could speak for my business. I'll speak for my business. So I'm in the restaurant part of the game. So yes, you walk past the restaurant, it's quiet during the day, but we rely on peaks. So we rely on Friday, Saturday nights, we rely on Sundays. And I guess the challenge as a business is to grow that peak period. But yeah, going to your point, how do you— I mean, you know, you've got to control your food cost, you've got to control your labour cost, and you've got to make sure your, you know, your occupancy cost is a good— is at a good percent from day one. It— you've got to have a good understanding of that, or otherwise you will fall flat on your face. Absolutely.

Josh: And so does that mean— because I can imagine, especially with you know, reality shows like MasterChef. It feels like everyone's going into that foodie realm, especially here in Melbourne. Uh, like, how do you make sure— like, do people— should people be taking on debt? Like, what are the things— what are the key things that people do that ends up not working out? Like, are there sort of telltale signs of a bad business?

Rami: Yeah, the number one thing I say is do not go into hospitality if you're gonna go in it for the bottom line. You're not gonna succeed. Hospitality from day one, I learned, is all about generosity. So have generosity. Do not borrow. Do not— if you are borrowing money to go into hospitality, again, you're gonna fall flat on your face. It is a tough game. There is tight margins. It is very— we work on very, very tight margins. Even the biggest there is, you know, the Golden Arches, they work on very, very tight, tight margins. We're talking 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%. So yeah, so I guess—

Josh: So how do you get started then? I guess for someone, do you just need to have cash in the bank to be able to make it work?

Rami: Yeah, absolutely. Mate, you need to honestly, I would say, have your own cash. You have to. You can't afford to be partners with the bank. I could tell you that now. It's too tight of an industry. And unfortunately, people see it from the outside and they think, I can do it, I can do it. And I know the failure rate in restaurants is like, it's unbelievable. Like, I think it's, you know what I mean? I think only 10% of restaurants succeed or something. It's like something ridiculous. So yeah, so mate, there's a lot. So yeah, so mate, you gotta have your own money and it's not about knowing how to cook. It's not about knowing how, what good service is. You really have to understand everything. There's so, like, you really gotta, you know, you gotta be a bit of a mastermind at being able to work your books, especially when you're a small business and you're starting off. You've got to know what your food cost is. You've got to be able to manage that. You've got to be able to manage your labor. You've got to— man, it's, it's a very, very challenging business. It's very, very hard, but looks so simple on the outside. And I guess that's why so many people fall over. So yeah, so my comment to people who want to start your restaurant, make sure you have a lot of business knowledge in the background. Like, you know, under— you know, there's a lot of things you learn. Do courses, um, study, go and study at TAFE some business courses. Um, you know, university, whatever. You can't just— yeah, you gotta— it's, it's a complicated business. I'm gonna say that.

Tommy: In Victoria, there was, I think, um, probably 7, 8 years ago, there was a trend where cafes moved to suburban areas, you know, old coin laundries on the corner in a little suburb. But it was a timing where that model excelled and it started going everywhere. And my brother's mates were a part of leading that charge, and we're talking about on the weekend saying you know, it was really timing, like good business heads but also timing. You've, you've been around for 23 years in that business. Where does timing place with a 23-year-old business that's been the same industry?

Rami: Yep. So, so I'll tell you what the timing was. The timing was— this is, this is a different part. So 23 years ago in Sydney especially, I could speak in the western suburbs, there was no cafes. So we entered— so I entered a gap. It was a different, completely different game then. I entered a, I entered a business. I'd say I found a gap in the market. I knew there was people that wanted to go out, that wanted, you know, there was, there was little, little cafes, there was little cafes up, but there was nothing of that size where there's 100-seater, 200-seater people that can go out and meet and, and have late night. So I guess, and I started very, very— I started with no money. Yeah. So I didn't have a nice fit out, I didn't have any of that. I just had a big place and it was— yeah. So did you want to—

Josh: so in that position when you first started and you don't have a nice place I guess it can be pretty tempting to be like, uh, maybe I can get $50K from the bank for a better fit out, which might see more customers come in. What was your mindset at that point?

Rami: Yeah, well, I did that. I did that. So what happened was, but I did that originally. So first I opened up with nothing, and then when I saw an opportunity and I saw I can, I saw it growing and there was a demand, there was no competition, no nothing. And I could see the demand was massive. Then I was able to sort of you know, be brave and go out and borrow money. And I borrowed very little. Yeah. So all I did was I borrowed $20,000, $20,000. It was never— and that's what I did. So I borrowed slowly and I built slowly.

Tommy: But you also saw the gap, whereas people are saying, let's open a cafe, let's take a heap of cash. But the gap's been filled many, many times.

Josh: There's a lot of doughnut shops that were in Melbourne that are no longer there, right? Like there is that trend. And so where was the, those that $20 grand bits and pieces, how did you know where to place it?

Rami: I was on the floor. I was in the business. I felt the business. I spoke to the customers. So I understood, let's get a wood fire oven. So then wood fire pizza came, became popular. So I'll put a wood fire oven in there. Then we upgraded coffee machines. So we reacted to the customer's demands. I did what the customers want. It wasn't what I wanted. It was what the customers as needed and wanted. It was a different time. And I've got to be like, now you're, you're taking me back, you know, 20-odd years. Um, yeah, it's, it was different today to starting a restaurant today. Today, um, you know, because people are all around me come in and they get advice off me all the time saying, I'm going to start my own business, I want to open a restaurant. And unfortunately, I try and give them as much advice as I can, and I tell them not to do it. And some of them listen, some of them don't. Yeah. And the people that don't, you know I don't know, like, you know, it's very hard to find somebody. Honestly, in all the time that I've been in business, I've worked with 2 people who I know were capable of opening a restaurant because they had what it takes and they understood what they were getting themselves into. That's the other thing, they understood what they're getting themselves into, and I knew they had the ability to, to make it work.

Tommy: For Josh and I, so we have a video production company alongside this show that we do every day, and I think the learning recently has been that sort of jump from being just Josh and I as the founders to then actually having people on board. And it makes more sense when there's more people, but getting the people is the hardest thing, and finding the right people is even harder. For you, you mentioned that you have a CEO, you have, you know, marketing team, you know, all those main roles are filled. For you as a founder, how has it been identifying the right people to bring into your baby?

Rami: Mate, it's so hard, honestly. Like, you know, it's where I'm forever working with people. Like, where I've been very privileged is Well, I've been very lucky is the key people in my business have stayed with me for like, been with me for 20 years. So that's, that's the secret. Otherwise, mate, honestly, to answer your question about how do you find good people and how do you find the right people, mate, it's so difficult. Yeah, it's so difficult. You know, good people are so hard to find. Um, you know, like, yeah, you just keep on working, you just keep on chipping away at it, I guess. I wish it was, I wish it was a simple solution. I wish I had the magic answer. I I would be, um, yeah, I'd be very, very well off. But, um, yeah, it's very, very hard, mate, finding people. And it's a big— it's the biggest— it's a very, very big challenge. I don't have the magic wand, mate. Sorry.

Tommy: Yeah, I think, um, as a— I mean, you could look at it as in you as a person, who do you like or who gravitates to you? And then you're applying the filter of what has worked for you. When you look at the people around you, why are they around you? Why have you decided to partner with them.

Rami: Love it. The people I have, the people I really, um, welcome into my business are people who lead from the heart. That is the biggest thing. I just— they're the things that I look at. So I look for people who lead from the heart, and then I know I'm happy to work with them. I know my— the rest of my team is happy to work with them, and the skill comes. So I definitely look for commitment, um, passion ahead of, um, skill, if you like.

Josh: What do you think, uh, where does gut instinct come into all of this?

Rami: It's for me, for me specifically, Matt, is yeah, it's about 99.9% gut. I definitely work from the gut, you know, it's simple. Your gut doesn't lie, you know. Your head gives you mixed messages and you could find all sorts of messages when you let your head do the thinking, you know. You could, I could, you know, you could, you know, you could ask a million questions that have different million different angles So yeah, so it's definitely the heart that working from the heart is definitely the key for me. And that's definitely, that's been my success and I think it's been my team's success.

Josh: Do you think that you have to communicate in a different way to the team when you're doing it that way? I can imagine CFOs or sort of traditional heads are maybe more sort of in the numbers. Are you hiring specifically for people who can work with that?

Rami: I'll tell you what, I'll tell you quickly what's happened to me. So with COVID-19, it's been a very, very big eye-opener. So I let my C's, my CFOs, my CEOs, whatever they are, I let them control the business a lot pre-COVID-19, and they started swaying the business towards numbers, to be honest with you. They started swaying the business to what I said early on, back to why I remembered in franchising when I was franchising from Domino's and all all the rest of it. So I felt that, that because I wasn't fully like up when COVID-19 kicked in, that's when I just sort of come in and threw everything out. Like what I said, I was all in. So I was all in everything. I was 100% committed. And so yeah, so to answer your question about, um, them talking about numbers, I kind of, I kind of stopped that. I kind of—

Josh: why do you think it happened? What were the— what were they— were they KPI'd based on that, or like what It seems like a common thing, right? Like, especially with a business, you even talk about margins being small and like all of those things are alarm bells when you're trying, like, trying to survive. So how do you— if margins are small and making, you know, paying too much for, for labour or too much, you know, at the supplier end or whatever it is, if that's going to be the difference between being an awesome business and shitting the bed? Like, how can you get them to not focus on the numbers?

Rami: You have to focus on numbers, there's no question there, but you definitely don't make it a priority. You definitely have it like, if you're having a— if you've got an agenda and you've got 10 things on your agenda, it's definitely number 10. That's not what makes it. You focus on your top line, you focus on your service, you focus on your customers, you focus on all that. But if you see— if you're the kind of character who's focused on numbers you're not usually working from the heart, you're working from the head. So you've already lost the first battle. You've lost the battle of, um, of, you know, focusing on your customer, focusing on your staff, focusing on your community, focusing on what counts to make a restaurant work. So in— so hopefully I've answered your question, you know what I mean? So yes, you need a bit of that, but that's got to be so far down. So you tell them to focus on everything else and you say, by the way guys, just remember we have to be cautious, you know.

Josh: So, but when you're thinking— so when you're thinking about people, say thinking about the staff and making sure that they're happy, what's the conversation or the thinking when you're like, okay, we're going to have to focus on delivery, but, um, these 15 people out of the 30 are not going to like this idea? They're front of house, they're not going to— they're not fucking used to delivering, it's going to be a hard sell. How do you communicate what you think is good for someone or for the business versus not necessarily comfortable?

Rami: Mate, by just communicating from the heart, I think people hear passion. People love passion. And if you just communicate with passion and you're true about what you're saying, most people are going to sign up. And the people who aren't signing up, the people who aren't agreeing with you, well, really, it's, mate, they're not for you. It's, it's as simple as that. And, and you've got to be brave enough, you've got to be brave enough to accept that. And I I suffered that during COVID-19, you know. Not everyone signed on, not everyone, not everyone come along and said, yeah, no worries, Rami, let's go, let's go and do it. No, not everyone did that, but enough people did because I already had a little bit of that, like that, that sort of culture existed in the business. That was the main culture.

Tommy: How do you think Australian, uh, how do you think Australia has handled this in terms of supporting businesses, man?

Rami: It's honestly, it's, it's been amazing. Like I can honestly speak for myself. I think whether it's landlords, like the major landlords, whether it's a government, whether it's the community, I think as long as you've shown that you've been proactive and you want to— I think honestly, I think we've done very, very well as a country in all aspects. I know Victoria today, it's bad news, but otherwise I think so far, mate, I think I'm proud to say that I live in Australia and I'm proud to say that I have a business in Australia and I'm proud to say that I've got an Australian-owned company and we have a, you know, I'm very, and how we've survived COVID-19, I'm very, very proud.

Josh: When you are operating from the heart, I feel like emotion could potentially get into it a little bit more. How do you manage the emotional side of things? So I could imagine you have the benefits of having people that are super loyal, But I could imagine also you have epic blowups and when you're communicating at that level, have you worked out a way of taking the good of the emotion but then also when it comes to the harder conversations or where there could be a blowup trying to sort of be less emotional?

Rami: Yeah, I'll tell you what, look, Josh, obviously you've been to my office so I blow up all the time, mate, I blow up all the time. But as long as people know where you're blowing up from. And if people know you, and as long as you're— and you're absolutely right, there's blowups every day in this office. But I tell you what, they're family blowups. Yeah, you know what I mean? They're not blowups where like you're going to lose your job. You know that. So if we, you know— and I allow people to blow me up for the right reasons as well. So it's a— when you create that family, and again, I'm telling you, when you create that culture where it works from the heart, of course you're 100% right, there's going to be blowups every Mate, always blow up. So you see him blowing up in the corner, you see two staff members blowing up, but you know you've got nothing to worry about. You know it's just a lover's tiff. You know it's all good, mate. You know they're going to be having coffee in 5 minutes.

Josh: Is it a hard pill to swallow for those HR professionals that are used to sort of traditional ways of doing things? Like if you had an HR person come in just like that, just doesn't get it.

Rami: What's HR?

Josh: Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's, I mean, it's super interesting because I think that like you're a, um, what's fascinating about that is you are someone who cares about people. You care about making sure you look after them. And, um, I love that you can do that but also take away some of the, um, the, the rah-rah. Yeah, it's good, mate.

Rami: Look, mate, it's honestly, it's easy. Just let— I'll keep on saying that to people and all my management who are higher, whether at store level you know, or whatever it is, man. Just, yeah, just be frank with people, be honest with people, and you watch how they respond. It's an easy game. It's— it ain't complicated. It's so easy. Life is so easy. Business is so easy as long as you do it the right way. And it's— and we're all on this planet doing the— trying to do the same thing. We're all trying to— we're all trying to, you know, put food on our table for our family. We're all trying to, you know, achieve a life so we can feel good about ourselves. The ba— as long as you focus on the fundament, on the basics, it's simple, man. It's honestly, it's so easy. And I guess some people don't, I don't know, have a different view, and I, I don't get it. And I'm not saying they're wrong, but for me it's, it's a simple game, really simple. I love what I do, and as a result, I love what I do. I enjoy what I do, and there's not enough hours in the day.

Tommy: Yeah, I love it because I think what you're talking about, your, your business, is that it becomes a lifestyle for the people that work for it. Not that you're trying to take the piss, but it's like you want people who are spending 70% of their waking life working with your team, and you want it to feel less like a job. I think that's what we try and do here. But then there's also the reality that people need to sort of get out of that. How do you— how do you gain perspective that it's— it is just a job? We are all here just trying to survive and do our thing. How do you remove yourself from that sort of work mindset away to something where it's perspective shifting.

Rami: Yeah, it's not, it's not just a job. Honestly, I never look at it like that, and I don't think my staff do. I don't think anyone does. It's not just a job, it's a, it's part of our life. Like, I think the word job, like, what is a job? You know, I don't know. I don't even think of— I don't think my people think of it as jobs, and I'll make sure they're the people that hang around. So it's— I'd— maybe I live in a different— maybe I'm in a different bubble here in my business. But yeah, we don't have— we honestly, it's not about jobs, man. It's about, it's about just life.

Tommy: And so if it's not a job, it can then be your life. And then there is the also the reality that your life isn't— there's other aspects to life other than trying to just survive. I think we get pulled into that where I need to disconnect sometimes, even though my job doesn't feel like a job. I also know I need to disconnect. What— how do you disconnect from the life which is your work, which is the job?

Rami: Personally, the way I disconnect is, you know, I'll make sure my weekends are my weekends. I'll make sure my family time is my family time. But, um, it's— and it's simple because I'm happy at what— I'm happy with my job. I mean, I'm— I've got to be careful not to use the word job now, but I'm happy with what I do. Yeah, I'm happy where I am. I'm happy with what I'm doing during the week. So it's like, you know, I don't know, look, it's hard for me to explain because honestly, it's, it's natural. It's just, it's It just happens for me. And maybe I even look around me, like, you know, the people who work with me, you know, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's saying compassion in the workplace. It's working with people. It's understanding what people's, what they need in their life. And I don't know, I can't explain it. And I guess that's been a huge part of our success as an organization.

Josh: Company values, is that something that you focus on? Or so how do you create a compass for your team?

Rami: Yeah, so see how you say company values, this sort of— it's life values. It's just treating people. It's how you treat your kids. It's how mum and dad treated me. That's the way I treat people. I expect them to treat me the same way. And it's just, as opposed to like— we are very, very unprofessional. We are not— sorry, when I say unprofessional, I don't mean that in a bad term. We're a little bit unorthodox. And you, you know, in our business, we are very, very unorthodox, especially from the top, especially I could speak for my headquarters and, and the rest of it, you know, like, it's just, we are very just, you know, you come in when you want and, and people end up giving you more, and you go home when you want, and you, you know, and you, you know, we— it's just, and even the office layout and the setup, it's not a profit, it's not a, it's not an office as you expect, you know. I've got a restaurant in the middle of my, in my office, you know, where people go and work and eat, and there's food on all the time, there's drinks on all the time. Oh, whatever, whatever. Yeah, so it's just, it's not a— and the whole workplace doesn't feel like a workplace. And when I say that, it's like me going to visit other, other offices, I guess, or other companies. I definitely don't work in that way. I definitely— I have a very diverse sort of people. We all get along. Like what I said, like, you know, and, and like I said, by, by not expecting much from people, as long as you've hired the right people, they end up giving you so much. I literally have to say to people, man, go home, go home, you've worked too hard.

Tommy: You've had 7 Parmesanas at the cafe, mate. Just, you know, go home, take them, take a walk, enjoy.

Rami: Food cost has gone up. Absolutely, man. Honestly, there was people in our business where we've got to— where we've got to say, listen, go home, man, it's all right, you know, you're going to burn yourself out. Go and just watch TV, go and do something.

Josh: What does, um, focus mean to you?

Rami: Focus. I don't know. I don't know if I could ever focus, but yeah, focus. I don't know what's the word. I don't know.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I guess, is there a, do you think that you need to be focused to be doing, like, I guess you could have had 50 other different businesses. You could be, you know, like it sounds like you're focused based on the customer and things like that.

Tommy: But even focus based on 23 years in business.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And so what, So yeah, how do you, um, how do you sort of reconcile focus, man?

Rami: Again, I swear to you, it's just a natural ability for me to just really, like, just naturally I'll get up and I'm— and I'll see— I'm— I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm going to put tickets on myself here, but I will. Um, it's like the way I look at it in business, and if you're meant to be an entrepreneur, it's a bit like a— it's a bit like a great athlete. I don't know if you've had a chance to speak to a great athlete. Yes, they have to focus, they have to train.

Josh: You're speaking to a couple of great athletes around here.

Rami: Yeah, I could imagine, man. I could see that, I could see that. Uh, you know, like, you know, it just flows. Like, it just— yes, you do focus, but it's inbuilt in you, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like I— it's, it's not a— it's not a— it's not something I have to turn on. It's not like, oh, focus. It's not a turn-on thing. It's just, uh, it just sits— it exists in my, in my DNA, exists in the exists in the, in what I do. And to be honest, and what I was, yeah, if I'm saying like a natural cricketer, you know, ask him, where were you? He goes, I'm just in the zone. I don't know, was I focused? Is that what you call it? But I was in the zone, you know.

Josh: Have you had to change anything that you do to be able to, um, get people on the same page? Because I feel like with the, the gut instinct from the heart, not like it's all very, um, using intuition, but I feel like potentially as you start to scale and have more people involved that all of a sudden they're asking questions of you that they might need answers. People might be operating slightly differently. Have you had to change anything over, you know, your lifetime to be a good leader?

Rami: You're learning every day, 100%. Like, you change every day as well. But again, you change— if I relate it back to family, Josh, again, you're changing because It's growing up. It's what you do, you know. I'll ask you at home, have you changed with your, with your, with your partner or whatever? And it's, it's yes, but it's not a conscious decision. Yeah, it's just a, it's a flowing, it's a flowing thing. It's just a, it's an ever-evolving thing, but it's not where you go, oh listen, tomorrow I'm going to start doing this, or tomorrow I'm going to start doing that. It's just, it's just being in it, being, um, you know. And it's, and it's not to say I'm a workaholic. I'm far from a workaholic. Yeah, um Uh, yeah, I'm far, far from workaholic. It's just— but what I do, I'm just so committed to. I guess it's hard, honestly. It just comes from within. I—

Josh: it's—

Rami: and, you know, I'm probably about to explain it, but it just— you know, that's the best way. And I guess when you, when you hear so many— or when I see, meet people similar to myself, and I could say that we can have that frank conversation sometimes.

Tommy: It sounds like it's— you're, you're referencing natural ability and things that you can't necessarily teach. Um, when you look at something like an MBA or going to business school, what's your view on, you know, the, the learnt business world or the degree behind people?

Rami: Look, I think to have something like that behind you is going to make you a lot more powerful. It's going to make you so much more, more powerful. I have, I have no doubt. Um, but you also need to have the, the natural ability. Yeah, there's— you need to have And MBA by itself or, you know, any sort of— it's not enough. It's for me, that's what I've seen even with the people I employ. They got to have— and that's why when you ask the question, how do you find good people? How do you hire them? It's a very, very tough challenge.

Josh: It's—

Rami: you've got to have— but yeah, you've got to have a mix. And if you've got— I've been fortunate because I've been able to surround myself with people who have degrees, so they've been able to sort of, um, sort of, you know, help me with things because you do need a little bit of education. There's no question about that. But, um, yeah, but you've got to have that natural ability to, to lead and to be able to be an entrepreneur. What have you learned about yourself during COVID Um, oh my God, yes, that's a good question. Um, this is what I've learned about myself. I am, I'm more confident than what I thought I was. I am, um, I, I always thought myself, thought of myself as being not very confident, but I realise how confident I am. I realized, um, that I, I— what I do, I do very well. I, I was able to sort of stamp it, if you like, by the results I achieved and how quickly I'll move things. Um, yeah, so I got a lot of self— the biggest thing is I got a lot of self-confident— I learned that I'm, I'm a lot more confident than what I thought I was. That's probably the biggest one.

Josh: And have you found mentors that have supported you over this time?

Rami: But, um, yeah, look, I've never had a mentor in my life. Um, I've never had a mentor. I've never had anyone who's sort of a senior level who's been involved in my life. So yes, so you know, when you talk about mentors, I don't get it again. And people say, who's your mentor? And you know, people have tried to be my mentors. And I guess because I'm a, you know, I'm the way I work and the way I am, it's just, it's very, very, very hard. I've never been able to connect with anyone as a mentor.

Tommy: What about reading books? I mean, people find mentors through podcasts. You mentioned you've never listened to a podcast.

Rami: Yeah, never read a book, never read a book, never heard a podcast, and never, never, never listened to a podcast, never been on a podcast, never read a book. I can't watch a movie. I'm a bit, I'm a bit like that, you know what I mean? So yeah, so I'm just in it, man. I just like what I said, I just live it, I just live it, I breathe it, and I work from the heart, and it it just all comes, it just all flows.

Josh: You've got, I feel like you've got similarities with Gary Vee, but I feel like you'd be the type of guy who'd be real pissed off with that sort of connection. Do you know of Gary Vaynerchuk?

Rami: Gary who? I have heard of him, by the way, but I don't know.

Josh: And so what does it all look like for you going forward? Like what are you excited about and what do you think the biggest challenge is going to be for not only you, but for the, for the rest of Australia in business over the next, you know, coming years?

Rami: Things are going to be very, very challenging, but my— where I'm excited, where I'm excited is that I, I think I've got the formula. I know what the formula is to success today, and I think people like myself who are— who work from the heart are going to be the people who succeed in this, in these tough times. Because if you— I think the community, the Aussies Like everyone has come together, and just by the way I do things, by the will of God, the way I do things, the way I work with like, you know, my local suppliers, I buy Australian, I do everything Aussie, I interact with my consumer. I, I think people have just gelled to me, they've magneted to me, and, and, and I think that's it. So I'm excited because I know what I'm doing is what people want today. So yeah, so I'm really excited for the future and. And I know I'm in the, you know, I'm in a, I'm in a space at the moment where people are feeling that, where, well, where I think my, my intuitions and my, um, my skills are, are what's needed in today's, um, in today's environment.

Tommy: Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's an refreshing, a refreshing approach, Rami, because I think we— I spend a lot of time looking at people who have the answer for everything, and they're very book smart, and they've, you know, speaking the formula as it's written down. But then there's the, um, I feel like yours is a very Aussie approach to business. You've put your head down and you've felt it out all the way. And it doesn't work for everyone, but it's— I mean, it's working for you, mate.

Rami: And but it will work. Look, when you say it doesn't work for everyone, because I guess you've got to have it a little bit. Yeah, you know what I mean? You could— you know what I mean? And if you have it and I guess what I'm trying to do, what I want to try and do in my life from here on is I want to try and help people who have it. I want to see the people who have it, and I want to try and, I guess, motivate them. And not because people like myself too, because we're not book smart, because we're not that, because we don't, you know, we're not very articulate, we kind of sometimes get put down. And that's the truth, we get put down by other people easily. And I, and, and I see those people, see, they're the people that are allowed to grow in my business as well, that I make sure I give a lot of rope to. I allow them to grow. I, I, you know what I mean? I don't let people push them down because I could see that in people, you know. I see a young Rami in someone, and because we don't come like what you just said, you know, we're not, um, you know, we're not your norm, you know what I mean? So what we— I think we've got to encourage those people a bit more. And yeah, and that's what I would love to be doing in the future.

Josh: How does that, um, sort of connect with your parenting style? Do you have any sort of thoughts or philosophies on how to parent?

Rami: Yeah, mate, um, my kids— I've got 4 beautiful kids, so I got, um, yeah, from 12 to 5. And, um, yeah, I'm— I try and give them as much rope as possible as well. I want them to find their own flair. I want them to be, um, who they are. And I want them to— you know, we have a bit of a challenge between, um, my wife and I, but, um, you know, like, you know, she's very disciplined. Um, she's about— you know, we're complete opposites in that sense. She's very disciplined, you know, bedtime, this, this, this, this, this is where I believe you got to let— you know, I'm a little bit more, you know, as soon as mummy's away, I'll let them be themselves a little bit more. Yeah, I'm the fun guy as well. I'm the fun guy. But what I'm saying, what I would say to parents as well, is that yes, there needs to be discipline. We have to learn discipline. But allow your kids, allow them to, you know, allow them to learn their mistakes. Allow them to let— allow them to learn from their mistakes as well. I'm a huge believer of that, mate. Huge believer.

Josh: What about education? Do you think that traditional education, it seems like we don't learn much about the things that we probably should in regards to accounting and business and just personal finance, all the shit that you actually need to live as an adult. How do you see the education system?

Rami: Don't start me. Don't start me. Seriously, mate. So I went through school, right? I went all the way to Year 12. I still can't read and write. I'm borderline illiterate. I can, you know, my reading is better than my writing. No one was able to pick it up at school. How school teachers let me get through it, I don't know. I used to scribble my essays and they used to get in trouble for bad writing as opposed to not being able to spell. And so the education— our education is not made like— yeah, look, so I'm sort of drifting a little bit because it's an emotional subject for me too, mate. It's like, yeah, I think our education, it's again, it's a— there's like a— there's a formula they use, but that's not for everyone, you know. And And I, I know the school, I know when I went to school, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm listening a little bit more to my kid, you know, I do a little bit more with my kids today. I think it's slightly better, but still, mate, it's so far away from what the real world needs are, you know. Just, I don't get it, mate. I don't get it.

Josh: So are there certain things that you can do as a dad to be able to make it easier? Like, is there certain decisions around education that has sort of become apparent in the way that you want to do things based on the experience you had?

Rami: Yeah, well, I tell her how I educate my kids. I'll make sure they come to work during school holidays. I'll make sure they're here. I'll make sure I speak to them about, you know, bills. I'll make sure I speak to them about— I'll make sure I educate them about life, which I believe it doesn't happen, you know. And yeah, so that's— I guess that's my education part. And, you know, I'm not saying I'm not— we need, mate, we need everyone. We need people to go through and become doctors and work out the cure to cancer or to COVID-19. We need those people, you know what I mean? But I think the way we educate our people, we've got to be able to You know, I don't know, we've got to funnel it more in a way where we allow people to, to go into, you know, to, I guess, go to where they belong, to what, to be educated in the way they needed to be educated.

Tommy: Uh, in an alternate reality, if you were to start all over again tomorrow, uh, what would you do? What job would you, uh, create for yourself? Not job, what, what lifestyle, lifestyle would you create?

Josh: What life, man?

Rami: That's the easiest question you've given me all day. Wouldn't change a thing. Would not change one thing, mate.

Josh: Love everything.

Rami: Love, love everything. Do it exactly the same way. Start as a Pizza Hut driver and work up the way I've worked up slowly. Whatever it is, I'll do it exactly the same way, 100%.

Josh: What is it about the delivery driver? Because like, um, John, the CEO or whatever, you know, the senior guy from Domino's. Yeah, yeah, you know, he, he famously sort of started the as a delivery guy. Was that a different time? Like, is there the— it feels like there's less opportunities for that sort of storey of start at the bottom and work your way up. Everyone wants sort of to fucking leapfrog and be senior straight up. Yeah. Why do you think that happened in sort of the pizza industry?

Rami: You know, I worked with Dom, mate. We were Dom and we're franchisees together before he went on and Yeah, he's done very, very well for himself. So I think in the time too, when I grew up, like, so sort of when I grew up for myself, it was like, we're going— we're just coming out of a recession. It was hard to get a job. I mean, you know, things are a lot easier today. That's also the truth, you know. I don't want to make it like— for the youngsters out there, but— and they're not prepared to work as hard. I could tell you that. I see that generation. They're not prepared. They want it gifted. They want everything put on a platter for them. They But that's, I guess, you know, we're very— especially in this country, yeah, um, we're very, very fortunate, man. Even what we think is poor is now we need poor. Like, the hunger is not there, you know what I mean? We know, like, you see it, you know, we're not hungry, we're okay, we're going to be fine. And, and it's a beautiful thing to have, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. So I think it's the hunger. I think that's the biggest thing. I think it's, you know, it's, yeah, it's not that there isn't opportunities, there is more opportunities but there's less hunger from that, from that young generation.

Josh: Is it because— I, I don't know if I can imagine a, um, I can't see the transition, say, in sort of the more modern businesses going from the Uber Eats— using the same sort of analogy, the Uber Eats delivery person making their way up and having the pathways. Did you sense or feel that there was that pathway for you?

Rami: No, no, no, it's not like I thought I'm going to start off as a driver, then I'm going to do A, B, and C and get to Z. No, no, that's not the way. It's just, again, I guess it's a— it's an inner passion, the inner drive that I had, the— that, that got me to where it got me. I definitely didn't see it. I definitely didn't even think that I was capable. I'll be— I'll be honest with you, I have very, very low self-esteem, all the rest of it. So it's not that, it's just about— that's what I encourage. If I want to speak to youngsters, mate, work from the heart. Do what's right. Do what's right for whatever you're delivering, whether it's food, whether it's furniture, whether it's whatever it is. And I don't mean delivery as in just car delivery, as in making it happen. And I know you'll succeed. I know that. I know the world is dying for people who are— I see it. And, you know, I'm obviously across a lot of business. People are dying for people who want to achieve, who want to kick goals. People— Australia's dying for it. We need it.

Tommy: Um, what— have you got your hand in anything else? Like, are you doing any other businesses? On the side?

Rami: Yeah, look, I'll keep it simple. I'll keep it simple. Um, everything is sort of related to what I do. So my core business is— so what I have is I have an industrial kitchen downstairs. I have an industrial kitchen downstairs from my office.

Josh: It's a—

Rami: so I have a 5,000 square metre sort of industrial kitchen, and whatever I do is sort of linked to that. So yes, when you say I do have my fingers in other pies, I do. I have a brand called Oodie, which I've started, which is like a home delivery business, a fresh So it's fresh product, and that's, that's resulted from COVID-19. So that's a fresh home, um, pack, if you like, that gets delivered to you. And the protein— and the protein is ready to be cooked, so you get a pan with it and all the rest of it. But also all the vegetables and the— and everything else. So all the prep is done. So we promise that it's a meal— it's an idea that I got through COVID-19 to deliver to people's houses because there was no restaurants. So we deliver a meal to you in a pack where you're ready to cook it and simplify it, and we promise that it'll be on your table in 10 minutes. So that's something that I'm working on, um, a lot at the moment in the background. So that's called Oodie. Give it a plug. Double O, double E. Um, Oodie. Oodie. Like foodie, but Oodie. Yes, I'm doing a bit of that and everything. Look, everything I do is all related to what my core business, which is a restaurant business. I don't, I don't go too far off because why get into something you don't understand? Stick to what you know, stick to what you know, and you'll be fine. So yeah, I do drift a little bit.

Josh: That makes a lot of sense.

Rami: Yeah, stick to what I know. That's— it makes it easy that way.

Josh: You've fired us up. We're pumped up. Thanks, Rami, for coming on the podcast. As a first, uh, uh, podcast that you've done, that was epic. Hopefully, um, you, you're a guest on many others, others, because it was good fun.

Rami: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, guys.

Josh: Awesome. It's the Daily Talk Show. See you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.