Tim Reid On Marketing, Partnerships & Taking Action

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 766, and we've got Timbo Reid from the Small Business Big Marketing Show. Welcome, fresh from Noosa. Noosa, darling. How's it going, mate? I'm a bit jealous. You've, I mean, you've been up there in isolation for since it's happened. I mean, you live there, I guess that's not isolation.

Tim: Isolated in Noosa, it's good, mate. It's incredible. Like I was just saying, like, we've got video of Hastings Street that's actually empty. No people, no cars.

Josh: Yeah.

Tim: When was the last time you would have got that? Probably like never.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then if you're a local that surfs, you just— that is the dream. That is the dream. Timbo, you're one of the OG podcasters. I reckon you're one of the very first podcasts that I ever listened to.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: I remember an episode specifically, you're talking to a guy who owns a tall ship company. It was all about outsourcing. I think it was around the day of 4-Hour Workweek when I sort of got into that. Josh got into that. We had no business really getting into that.

Tim: We're probably like 19.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Just nothing to sell. Yeah, but I still remember that like experience of the podcast before. And then, I mean, Josh has been listening to podcasts for 15 years.

Josh: Yeah, well, I feel, yeah, Small Business Big Marketing being your podcast, it's a, it's a very long time you've been doing it for. And I feel like there's been iteration. You started off with a co-host and then you've gone on doing it on yourself. Is there—

Tim: who's going out?

Josh: Yeah, I can guess. I mean, I do have the mixer. Um, no, what What's your perspective of podcasting, seeing all the changes? Do you eye roll with everything that's happening or like what things are cyclical and what's new?

Tim: Yeah, I just look at podcasting, I think it's an incredible medium. I just, it blows my mind when I first came across it 12 years ago, my show, the Small Business Big Marketing Show is 11 years old. But when I discovered podcasting 12 years ago, I was like, as someone who always wanted to have a radio show, it was like, now I can actually have my own show. It'll be a podcast. So I could see that. And the other thing I could see as a marketing guy who was particularly interested in helping small businesses, but it was that all of a sudden business owners could have their own show and it was going to be very inexpensive to create. And if you create a good quality content, then you're going to create a platform to build your brand, to build your personal brand, to drive traffic to your website or your store or whatever it is. And I'm like, this is incredible. But I've always said, as a small business marketing guy, there's never been a better time to market your business. And one of the reasons I say that is because there are things like podcasting that are so accessible to us back then and even now. And I just think, wow, what a time we live in. Imagine 20 years ago saying you can have your own show.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, 11 years ago, for a content marketing approach, I mean, was that a big thing back then? Like, you know, that term has been pretty beaten now. It's like, you need a content marketing approach, you need a content strategy.

Tim: Yeah, uh, but no, no, back then it wasn't, it wasn't like, you know, we all had to get YouTube channel and a podcast and a blog and an ebook and, you know, social media. No, but it was all sort of slowly coming together, and it's pretty exciting times. And I would say to anyone listening, either who wished they had a business or have a business and were wanting to create a content strategy, and in this case podcasting, like, the boat hasn't left the shore. You know, so many— there's a real limiting belief now around business. Ah, it's too late to start a podcast. It's too late to start it. It's just not true. You know, like, Jeff Bezos from Amazon only in recent years talked about Amazon being in day one. And this is one of the biggest companies in the world, right? So, and that's incredible to say. I feel like podcasting is like in its second hour in terms of its growth. And there is so much more to, we just, you know, we were at the start of something. So if someone was listening, then lose any limiting beliefs and have a crack.

Josh: So do you think that the podcasting has changed at its core or do you think it's the same as it was when you started?

Tim: I think fundamentally it's the same. I think there is a lot more. I mean, mate, I was just ranking number 1 in iTunes. You know, I could stand on my head and not talk and I could rank number 1 Number 1 on iTunes back in the day.

Tommy: What did it mean then?

Tim: 1, ranking 1 for my business, or what do I mean?

Tommy: Business numbers, like what was it? Did it, what did it do for you at that point? Because now number 1 is like—

Tim: Stroke my ego, you know?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, still doing that.

Tim: It still happens. Tommy, it's not. I'm very, I'm very, I'm humble. I'm full of humility.

Josh: Where were we?

Tim: I was number 1. Yeah, isn't that—

Josh: I mean, that's one thing I always think when Gary Vee talk, like when you are yelling that you're humble, like it's sometimes kind of— some of it's cred.

Tommy: Yeah, you don't need to yell it. But I mean, so you can get to number 1 in the charts now. You could be a celebrity that starts a podcast in the first week, their trailer for their show will be number 1. And I don't know if it translates to downloads or what. What did you make sense of it back then?

Tim: Back then, I look at it less now. It's much less important to me now, and I'll tell you why in a minute. But back then, look, it was, you know, proof of concept. Um, I was just amazed. I mean, again, like, I used to look at iTunes prior to having a podcast. iTunes was this big thing owned by Apple that I could never be a part of, you know. And then all of a sudden I see my, my album artwork as number one, you know, above companies like Harvard Business Review or Seth Godin or, you know, these guys who again, like, are held in such high esteem. And what it was proving to me was as small business owners, which I was and still am, we can now punch way above our marketing weight. Okay, so again, limiting belief. Oh, you know, I could never beat those guys. Well, you can, because the challenge is one— it's a creative challenge. The challenge is not to get a podcast. We can all get a podcast. And to your question, you know, what's changed? A lot more people are getting podcasts, and there's a bit of a laugh, you know, who hasn't got a podcast? But the reality is we can all get it. The creative challenge is, as you guys would know, is to make it the best in your category.

Tommy: When you started, were you I mean, you've got a solid marketing background, but then you like to pull people in where it's like us. We like to not be the smartest in the room. We get people who know a lot more and it, and then it's, you know, it's us just being curious to learn.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: You've since gone on to write books. Boomerang Marketing. That's Boomerang Effect. Boomerang Effect. I mean, and where do you see, because now there's a push, submit yourself as an expert. And so what's, what's your sort of vibe on people with that as their first approach. I need to cement myself as the expert wherever I am.

Tim: I just think, you know, there's that great saying, don't tell me you're funny, tell me a joke, right? Because a lot of people—

Josh: fuck, I say I'm funny a lot, I don't have many jokes.

Tim: Well, listen, because, you know, the reality is, I mean, there's a lot of experts. Everyone's an expert, you know, thought leaders. Yeah, a lot of thought leaders, opinion leaders, and, you know, it's all this stuff. And I just think, well, Show me in your actions. And so for me, and I, you know, one of the things, it was interesting. Here we go. We'll get honest here. You know, back in the day when I started the Small Business Big Marketing Show, I considered myself a marketer and an okay marketer, not the best marketer certainly going around, but an okay marketer. And then I had a realisation that, you know what, I am not going to stop putting myself out there as a great marketer necessarily, but as someone who can connect the dots. And if that meant bringing in someone into the studio and getting their opinion on an area of marketing I didn't understand, then I was really cool with that. So my mindset in the early days, which was marketing experts, slowly pivoted to the fact that I'm almost a journalist. And journalists would cringe because I haven't done any training as a journalist, but now I'm like the reporter and I'm really cool with that. And I can still offer my marketing advice, but it took the pressure off. I'm interested in good quality conversations that are gonna move people forward and in my case, grow their business through smart marketing. And if I can impart that myself Awesome. If it requires me to have a guest who's going to do it a whole lot better, awesome. Right on the—

Josh: what is it?

Tim: Right on the shoulders of giants.

Josh: Did you have to learn to step back? Because I can imagine, especially when you are taking on something that you do know a bit about, you sort of hear— like, I was listening to a business podcast the other day, and it turns into the interviewer just sort of deconstructing the person's business and giving advice rather than an interview. Was that something that you had to learn to come to it with the posture of interviewing.

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've received the odd bit of flak over the years. So there's two parts to that, Josh. One is I have learned that my listeners actually do like to hear what I have to say. I did my 500th episode a few weeks ago and it was just me answering questions for about an hour and a half. And people really appreciate it because I try— I've actually made an actively tried to step back and just let my guests do the talking. But I feel like, you know what, if I've got something to say and I feel like it's going to add value to the listener and their business, then I will say it. So I do that. The other part is I actually, I'm really interested in the art of interviewing. It's just something that I love to just practise and get better at. And so there are people in the media that I watch both here and overseas. And then one day, one of my favourite interviewers of recent years has been Richard Stubbs when he was on the ABC, on ABC Radio in Melbourne. He's an excellent conversationalist. He was funny. He had heart. He listened. He would kick back if need be. So I got Stubbsy into the studio and asked him, I said, this is gonna be an episode of the Small Business, Big Marketing Show about interviewing for all those business owners who wanna create content.

Josh: That's great.

Tim: But I want you to treat this as like a coaching session with me. And every time I muck up, openly just tell everyone, you know? So he, you know, he really got stuck into me, which was awesome. You know, I've gotta listen more. One of the best things, best bits of advice he was, was lead with your best. Always lead with your best.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tim: Your best, whatever it is you've got to say in an episode that you think is your best piece of content, your best piece of advice, your best guest. If it's like you've got 3 guests in one show, always lead with your best because people aren't going to hang around.

Josh: It's interesting because like there's the other thought around listening because I feel like I've fallen into the trap of being a guest on a show and being like, there's a certain thing I want to say and almost not listening to the question or try— You hear it in politicians, right? It's like, it doesn't matter what the question is, they're going to fucking say the bit that they want to say. Is there a way of doing that to have your key messages but also simultaneously be listening?

Tim: As a guest?

Josh: Yeah.

Tim: I think if you go into an interview with a whole bunch of key messages, then that's what's going to be front of mind. And you're just going to be looking for the openings to see when can I get that first one out, you know? I think the better thing to do is let the interview take its course as a guest in the hope that your interviewer has done their homework.

Josh: And so, the Stubbsy stuff, the stuff on— that's more for hosts, was he saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim: For me, it was a host. Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: And so, it's because we do a terrible job at sort of explaining who our guests are. And we sort of do that in a way which is like, if you're at a party, I fucking hate 'What do you do?' Doing those sort of classic things. I'd much prefer to be like, 'Let's just get to know, let's have a conversation.' And then if you can Google someone, you can find out more, you can ask your mate. And so that specific comment, what does that translate to as a host?

Tim: What comment about the—

Josh: So around the leading with the best content.

Tim: So like if I've got a guest, like I had a guest in this morning on my show and I knew that he owned 19 businesses, 13 businesses before he left uni. Now I could have started somewhere else, but I went straight to that because that's really interesting. Like that, how, how, how did you get one property, much less 13 after studying 4 years of uni? Like how and why?

Josh: Go.

Tim: And like, let's just get that out of the way. That, that gets, that's really interesting. I'm expecting a pretty good answer from him because it's not just gonna happen unless he was born with a silver spoon, which I knew he wasn't. And so then I'm in, the listeners are in because I'm just representing the listener. Like you guys are just representing the listener, you know, or you should be. Yeah. And thinking, well, what are they going to be asking us?

Josh: When we get one, we'll let you know.

Tim: Well, yeah. And celebrate that.

Josh: Yeah. We've got two.

Tommy: Now this is why they're here, just so we can pretend.

Josh: We're not recording.

Tommy: I remember looking at your site as an example of of something I wanted to build back in the day. I don't know what it was for, but I, you know, the amount of sites I've built that haven't done nothing.

Josh: How much did you spend on that Flash site?

Tommy: Oh, $10,000. That was back in the day.

Josh: That was stripping business?

Tommy: I had a stripping business back in the day. I had a PT business, coaching, you know, I've had it all, but really had nothing. Had it all but had nothing. I look to your website. Side note, Josh's friend built your site back in the day.

Tim: Yeah, not the current one.

Tommy: Not the current one.

Tim: The first one.

Tommy: I always, I was always wondering, looking at your content and listening to your content, your podcast, thinking, what's your business model? And how's he making money? Because if he's making money, I want to be doing what he's doing.

Tim: Yeah.

Tommy: And so has that been something that's evolved for you?

Tim: Yeah.

Tommy: And where did it start and what has been the sort of pivotal shifts or direction?

Tim: So when I started podcasting, I had a marketing consultancy. It was just me. It was called The Ideas Guy, and I was the guy who would come in and generate ideas to help you grow your business through attracting more of the right people more often. And I was just one-on-one. It was just me. I didn't have a lot of clients because I just was managing. It was sort of half lifestyle business, half kind of, you know, I might be able to grow this.

Josh: What does a lifestyle business mean to you?

Tim: Means I can do what I want when I want. As opposed to be— because I'd worked in like big agencies forever.

Josh: Is that freelance, do you think? Like, can you have a lifestyle business that's not free?

Tim: As long as it's not— as long as you're not a prisoner to it, as long as it's not, you know, like you have to be there all the time. I mean, I kind of went into my own business in order for me to call the shots as opposed to have someone, you know, like working in big agency land. It was like, you know, I'm going to sneak out at 3. I wonder who's watching. I don't want anyone watching anymore. Yeah, you know, like I'll do what I want when I want. I'll get the job done. If I can get the job done by 11, awesome, I'll go down the beach.

Josh: You know, and so you were doing that. Sorry, so you were— so that wasn't— that was a single-person business, the Ideas Guy?

Tim: Yeah, yeah, single person. So then I started the podcast, and I started the podcast because I was given the opportunity to start a podcast, a great studio with great support, and I was like, I wasn't going to say no to that, right? So then, uh, that started and it started to get traction. For some reason, we— I had a co-host back in the, in the day, Luke, And Luke and I got along really well. He was everything that I wasn't. He loved getting under the hood and seeing how everything worked. And I'm like, I'm just top line, like wanting to understand people's storeys and journeys. So we would clash on air and it made for interesting listening. We'd clash off air and we'd have these fights— is a big word— but we'd have these debates. I just thought that was really good. So we got traction. We got traction. I saw the rankings on iTunes. We'd get listener reviews. People were emailing us. And over time, over the course of probably 12 to 18 months, it wasn't like like so many podcasts stop after 6 episodes. Like, you gotta push through, guys. I then started to— I got asked to speak at the odd event, which I hadn't done previously. I'd done a bit of speaking when I was in advertising, but not much. So then that evolved, and all of a sudden— so your question really, Tommy, is like, how do I monetize my show and how have I over the 11 years, right? Yeah, and even just understanding your business Yeah, well, this is the business model has evolved. So, you know, my big break outside of podcasting, we started to get sponsors. I went to, I'd go to conferences and expos and identify businesses that were trying to attract small business owners whose presence and brand that I liked, and I would approach them. Got some sponsors signed up, so that was starting to pay its way.

Josh: Did you have a sense of what success looked like at that time?

Tim: Okay, no, not then. Uh, and then I got a phone call one day. I suppose it was my big break because monetizing a podcast or content isn't necessarily like— some people go, oh, it's just a traffic channel to sell your own stuff, which it could be, your courses or your products, whatever you want to do. For me, it was about getting a third-party sponsor because at the time I had nothing to sell outside of my marketing coaching services. And then I got a phone call one day from a woman who said— and I was picking up my kids outside school and it was madness, traffic going everywhere. I took this call. She said, you don't know me.

Josh: I've got a client who knows you.

Tim: She spoke like that.

Josh: And, uh, was that Dave Hughes?

Tim: It was Dave Hughes, yeah, yeah, dressed as Mrs. Doubtfire. That's not pretty because usually by himself it's not pretty.

Josh: Yeah, put the hair down.

Tim: Anyway, we digress. She goes, yeah, I've got a client who knows you, um, and they listen to your podcast and they want to know whether you do, uh, an 8-city road show. And I'm like, I don't know what a road show is. She was from a speakers bureau. I don't know what a speakers bureau is. Long storey short, this client, they flew me up to Sydney. It was a big insurance company, flew me up to Sydney to meet me, and we got along very well. They booked me for this 8-city road show where I got— had to give an hour's keynote in front of audiences. Never done that before. It went really well, and I got signed by this speakers bureau as a speaker, and I didn't, I didn't even know that stuff existed. So then that part of my business model established itself and really took off. So then I had good sponsorship in my podcast. Every now and then I'd create a product, I'd do workshops. And so that— there has been a hot— and then I wrote my book, The Boomerang Effect. And there's been a whole lot of different ways I've monetized this. And it's all— I wouldn't say by accident, but it's, it's actually organically involved— evolved.

Josh: It feels like, um, the partnership thing is hard. Like, Tommy and I had epic blowups, like we were talking about it the other day.

Tim: You and Luke.

Josh: Yeah, we had the best types of blowups. And I think that doing a podcast is an extra level, like there's having a business partnership and then there's having a podcast where it's like you are representing different ideas on air and then people have something to say about what you're saying and all of that sort of stuff. Have you gotten any clarity looking back on partnerships around what partnerships work?

Tim: Yeah, totally.

Josh: And what don't?

Tim: Yeah, big time. So listen up, boys. We're ready. Luke and I, I think, were successful because what I said, he's everything that I wasn't. And I think that makes it— that's interesting because I don't like— I personally don't like— and again, I'm here to represent the listener— I don't like people agreeing all the time. You disagree, don't agree. If you don't like it, say no.

Josh: You're fucking wrong.

Tim: That's interesting.

Josh: Why am I wrong? Well, I just think that it was over—

Tim: you said yes, and then you said no.

Josh: I was being nice, right? Yeah.

Tim: Okay.

Josh: I'll the money.

Tim: Yeah, you can't even look me in the eye when you answer.

Josh: I'm trying to switch. You know, I'll fucking look you in the eye.

Tim: So there is that part of it. And just Luke and I, and we would be honest, you know, sometimes on air because people couldn't see and we were on video. But, you know, with my show, we weren't on air and video. And so like sometimes I just go like, I'd just be totally disappointed. I just, my shoulders would just like, because I'd be asking our guest, right? So where'd the idea for the business come from? Like, how did you get that to market? And the guest is about to answer and Luke would come in and go, yeah, yeah. And how much did you spend on AdWords in that first week? And I'm like, you're kidding me, mate. And I'd be holding my fist back at Luke, you know, and then he'd be laughing and I'd be like, it's not funny. And then we'd have that discussion off air. So again, great hosts, co-hosts, I think good communication and be honest and say, look, nothing's personal here. We're just here to create. The best content. And I go back to what I said earlier, it is a creative challenge. You're going to start a podcast, to make it successful is a creative challenge.

Josh: And so you need friction or you need tension within a—

Tim: within Hamish and Andy have friction, right? Laurel and Hardy have friction. The two Ronnies have friction. You know, Hamish and Andy, whilst they look as though they get along and they're great, my best of mates, Hamish is the clown and Andy is the one sweeping up afterwards and shaking his head. And whether it's manufactured or real, it doesn't matter. They do it beautifully. And it's just interesting to have two different types of people to carry it.

Tommy: I guess the one thing you can't avoid though in that is the visceral response to the two different sides. So when you're in the middle of that with Luke, it's like, sure, on the other side it's like taken well and people really respond to it or resonate with it because they're like, oh yeah, I'm on that side or that side. But there is a feeling there. It's like it doesn't feel where Josh is pushing back, even if he knows it's content, it's still fucking annoying for you, or vice versa. If I'm doing something, you know, it's like It is real.

Josh: Well, but I guess there's a point. Like, you obviously made the decision where you're like, oh, this is better, me being able to do the thing on your own. What's the right amount of friction then? Because obviously there is a point.

Tim: By myself?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Like being able to decide to be like, I'm going to do this shit.

Tim: Oh, there wasn't a— Luke didn't— Lukey, after 80 episodes, I couldn't see the future, which, you know, we laugh about now, but he's gone on to do good things.

Tommy: Behind his back or with you? Mainly behind his back.

Tim: But, you know, he made that decision, so it was a pretty clear-cut one. Yeah, I would still love a co-host. You know, I'm happy and I've, you know, for 400+ episodes on past Luke finishing, I'm very happy with where my podcast is at. But there is something special about having a dynamic and someone to bounce off and argue with. And, you know, you're not carrying the can 100%, although you did say, Josh, that you do 95% of the work.

Josh: Yeah, that was on the Daily Talk Show. But I do wonder I wonder about that idea with the co-host type of thing. So, that frick— Using the example of asking about the AdWords or whatever, and it's a good moment. But obviously for you, it's like it fucked the flow of where you were wanting to go with it.

Tim: So, in the moment, I don't pull Luke up and go, hang on, Luke, I've just asked— Like, he knows that he's pissed me off. And in doing so, my mood will slightly change, which again, I think makes for interesting listening, you know.

Tommy: But it's still annoying.

Tim: It's cool, you know, we'll sort it out afterwards.

Josh: Yeah. And so then what is it if you were looking for a co-host now? What are some of the things that you're looking at?

Tim: Uh, that's a pretty interesting question because I haven't— as much as I'd like one, I don't think there's one around the corner. Uh, so I haven't given a lot of consideration. But again, it would be someone, someone who's everything I'm not. So whatever I am, I want the opposite of that. So, you know, someone who's incredibly good-looking, um, you know, all that stuff. But I just think, uh, it's not gonna happen in anytime soon, so I just let that go. But every now and then I do pull in— I've had my daughter Stephanie on two shows because I just thought she'd add so much to the discussion with a business owner that I knew she had an interest in and be good to get that perspective. The girls from K.I.C.K., Keep It Clean.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, right.

Tim: Stephanie and Laura, you know, they're doing some pretty interesting things with the market of young girls, and I thought, you know, and I get a little bit pissed off at these— And they're very good those girls so don't get me wrong but they're pretty big on social media and I'm like my question was you know "Are they making young feels good about themselves or bad about themselves?" And it's like coming from 53-year-old guy that sounds a bit creepy but if I brought my daughter in she can ask those questions then and it worked, you know?

Tommy: Was that upfront? Was that good content first? Is that led with that question?

Tim: No, I didn't because I felt as though I needed to establish rapport.

Josh: Yeah yeah nah got it small business versus versus startups? It seems like nowadays everyone wants to be a founder in a startup rather than a small business owner. What's been your perspective of that shift?

Tommy: And also how much did you spend in AdWords on the first week?

Tim: Great question, Tommy. Love AdWords. I, look, it is, I go back to fundamentals, small business owner, startup, entrepreneur, You know, it's just someone having a crack. It's someone identifying a problem and meeting it with a need and filling it with a need and just creating a business from it. But is it a solution, I should say?

Tommy: Butcher on a high street opening up next week.

Tim: Yeah.

Tommy: They're not going to be calling themselves a startup. No.

Tim: Although I interviewed Sam Canning, who is a butcher. Canning's Butcher?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: Great, great mate.

Tim: Amazing. Like amazing business.

Josh: Good broth as well.

Tim: You like the broth?

Josh: Yeah, they do a good broth.

Tim: The bone broth, chicken broth?

Josh: Yeah, they do. They do a broth that I, when I was doing keto, I think that I had a bit of that. It was good.

Tim: And how did you use the broth?

Josh: Just drank it.

Tim: Right.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Okay.

Tim: Cold, hot, extra hot? We actually love it.

Josh: You've opened up a can of worms.

Tim: Good idea, Josh.

Josh: We do good organic sausages as well.

Tim: Are you tasting it?

Tommy: But I mean, canning's a niche.

Tim: I don't know whether he would've used the word startup, but he certainly approached that business in a way that probably most butchers don't. I mean, Sam, big on interior design, big on customer service, you know, using words like customer experience, building a database. You know, he's doing a lot of funky stuff.

Josh: Cashless. You don't use cash there. Cashless.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Because I guess it's like a hygiene thing, but I thought that was interesting.

Tommy: But they're still using sawdust out the back.

Josh: No, well, you think about it, when you think about butchers or whatever, you'd like, I don't know, you just imagine, like, I thought that was an interesting thing.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Do you remember sawdust? No. Sorry, I digress. Bay Street Brighton. Did you ever go there?

Tim: Yeah.

Tommy: I know you remember the butcher in Bay Street Brighton that had sawdust all over the floor.

Tim: Well, that's pretty common. Most of them absorb the blood, mate.

Tommy: Yeah, full on.

Tim: That's what I don't want to see blood with my meat.

Josh: No.

Tim: Hello to all your vegetarians. You know, last night, I digress, I cooked for my kids. I came down from Queensland and kids are in Melbourne and I had to cook for a seafood hater, a vegetarian, and a vegan. All three different people.

Josh: Eggplant dish?

Tim: I hate eggplant.

Josh: What do you know? Do you know why? It's the—

Tim: It's too fleshy.

Josh: Bitter water, you need to be getting the water out of it. So, you need to add salt and then it extracts all of the water.

Tommy: Don't agree with him.

Tim: Too much.

Josh: Yeah. It's not interesting.

Tim: Wash it down with some broth.

Josh: That broth's great.

Tommy: Small business. At what point does it become a medium-sized business?

Tim: Oh, I don't know. It doesn't. Does it matter?

Tommy: Well, I mean, on some forms I've seen like up to 100 employees is still a small business. It's like, holy shit, I'm micro.

Tim: There is some weird definition of small business. The government have, which is a lot of employees and a high turnover.

Josh: So—

Tommy: Well, the JobKeeper was like, if you have revenue under $1 billion or something, you're in that category. It's like, yeah.

Tim: But what is interesting—

Josh: If we don't include the daily talk show revenue, I think we fit under that.

Tim: I was the marketing manager at Flight Centre for a period of time. And what is interesting is that they subscribe to the idea that anything over 30 becomes unmanageable. And this is a an Indigenous thinking. Indigenous tribes would do this, whereas if over 30 people, you, you can't feed and water them and protect them, so you have to split. I might have that number wrong. I want to say it might be— I don't know, it doesn't matter. But there is a certain number where if you keep growing, it becomes unmanageable. People will die or suffer, so you split it. So Flight Centre was very good at adhering to that and maintaining a small business mentality, which was that any— anywhere in Flight Centre there were tribes of 30 people, and they were 30, and you'd have like 4 or 5 tribes which made a country, and then 6 or 7 tribes that made a nation. So it was sort of, if you can imagine, it's almost pyramid-like, and it just meant that the teams were small, everyone could get looked after and be heard and attended to, and it kept you hungry.

Josh: Travel agents— is there, is there a space for travel agents in 2020?

Tim: I think there is, you know, once all this COVID stuff is over. Um, you know, you're asking a 53-year-old bloke who still likes to talk to people and eyeball people. And, you know, like, I made a phone call on the way here.

Josh: Oh, really? Unusual.

Tim: You know, like, you don't see a lot of people, young people on the phone.

Tommy: Mason, do you know what that is?

Josh: A phone call?

Tim: That's right.

Josh: No, he actually— Mason said the other day he made a phone call. He said, this is so much better than email.

Tommy: Yeah, because we've pushed him into it.

Josh: He doesn't do email. Like, he pushes back. I don't like email. We set the KPI of 30 emails a day. He said, what do you want me to send? I'm like, I don't fucking care, just send an email because he wasn't doing it.

Tim: But, um, and so I just think there are these opportunities for businesses to continue to provide. I think as we become— look what COVID's done, we're back into communities, you know, we, we like that human interaction. And whilst I think it's amazing what you can do online without humans and where AI is taking it, so I just think that you know, the idea of eyeballing someone is pretty special. You would agree an interview face to face is better than one over Zoom or over the phone. It just— you get a better vibe, a better interaction, a better energy. And yeah, I do think, you know, like travel agents, particularly bigger purchases, you know, I think you do want someone to be looking after that.

Josh: I guess like it comes down to trust. And I think like there's been a few of those, um, travel agents have gone under, or like it almost feels my perspective, I mean, I'm nearly 30, so I'm still pretty young. Like, the perspective is I'd prefer to go direct to an airline because then there's one less potential entity to shit the bed. Yes, for me to lose the money. On, on the whole business thing and, and where we're going to sort of sit at the end of COVID do you think we're going to see a huge amount of small businesses go under based on COVID, or do you think that we're going to see it more at the bigger end?

Tim: I think a bit of both. I mean, I'm surprised at how many I've just— because I live in a small town in Queensland, you sort of don't get a sense of what's really going on. And having come to Melbourne, it's amazing. I'm seeing a lot of for lease signs, you know, Bay Street Brighton.

Josh: Yeah.

Tim: You know, stuff that's just clearly closed down because of COVID which is really sad. And I think, you know, yeah, businesses will— too many businesses live hand to mouth. I don't know what really the solution is to that outside of get some money in the bank and like Don't, you know, if you can't survive a day without income, then gee, you know, have you made the right business? And I look at some businesses. In fact, my son Jack is sort of math-science guy, but when he did Year 12 about 5 years ago, he did business management as his 5th subject. And so all of a sudden he's in the car with me and we're having business discussions up until when we hadn't done that. And we drive past cafes or particular types of businesses. He's like, Dad, how does that business make money?

Josh: And I'm like It's our favourite thing to do. We walk down the street and be like, all right, their lease, they're paying at least $28 grand for the lease, and then their barista's on fucking $15. Like, I don't understand.

Tim: And it's like, so Mike, and I never really— I said, look, maybe they're happy to take a minimum wage. Maybe it's been a lifestyle decision, which is, you know, I'm going to run my own cafe, make coffee, and then go home. It doesn't work like that. Maybe they have big corporate contracts that they're they're providing that we don't get to see from the retail perspective. So, but it is amazing. I just look at some businesses and just go, oh well, good luck to you.

Josh: Tire kickers, or just people who are full of shit. Like, I feel like especially in the podcasting space, there's a lot of people saying the gunners, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. Have you, having stayed with something for a long time, have you got a good filter of when people are serious about the change that they're talking about versus the, you know, the gunner attitude.

Tim: I just, I just listen out for gunner, and if, if that enters the conversation, then I, I, because I'm really interested in action, you know, because I know that when I take action, we move things forward. Action creates reaction. Um, and I know that I have— I can be prone to procrastination, and it really shits me. So I'm really interested in helping others not be like that and moving forward. So if someone says, I'm going to do this, I'm going to—

Josh: oh, cool.

Tim: 'Oh, how are you going to do it?' or 'When are you going to do it?' or 'What's stopping you from doing it now?' or 'What are you scared of?' I just think it's a really interesting conversation because again, there's a whole lot of reasons we don't do things. It could be fear, it could be ego, it could be lack of money, lack of time. But whatever it is, let's identify it and move on. In fact, you know, I constantly reinforce that in my podcast, which is, you know, guys, love you listening, like, please never stop listening, but gee, I'd love you to take some action. So I actually created a segment in my podcast called— and the segment's called the Monster Prize Draw, which is a pretty shit name. But the premise of it is send me an email, tell me one idea you've picked up from my listening to the Small Business Big Marketing Show and what impact it's had on your business, and then you win a bunch of prizes, right? And I've done that because it's nice to give away stuff, but I really want to hear what you've implemented, and I want to reward you for that. Because we can listen till we're blue in the face, but if you don't implement, then it's kind of just been entertainment.

Tommy: For a small business that, that should be sort of picking up their marketing game? What do you think the, the sort of easy win for a business, a small business— so what aren't small businesses doing and what is the easy win that they should be doing?

Tim: There's money in the list, there's money in your existing client base. You know, you've got— if you've got clients, they may well want more of you. You know, um, I was speaking to a yoga instructor last weekend and she'd come up up to stay with a friend of mine. We live in Noosa, and she'd come up to stay with a friend, and she said—

Tommy: and she's—

Tim: yeah, she does yoga classes, she does the odd retreat, and that's her business, you know. It's a bit of a grind. She had one lady who she coaches who actually heard that this, this lady, this yoga instructor, was coming up from the Gold Coast to Noosa for the whole week and wouldn't be able to do the one-on-one that she would normally do with her. So this lady was driving up to Noosa to have this one-on-one, right? So this is a client driving 2 hours or 3 hours to have a one-on-one. So I was like, I said to this yoga instructor, imagine how many other clients there are in your current base that would probably want to do that, for which you can charge a premium because you're offering this one-on-one service. So there's a group of clients in every business that love what you do, the raving fans who just can't get enough of you and will pay and want more of you and whatever you do.. So identify them and even ask them. Just call them up and say, what more would you like from me? And so, you know, first of all, work to your client base. If you've got a list, and every small business owner should have a list of email addresses and mobile numbers, start communicating with that list because there is money in the list. Okay, it's a way of having ongoing conversation. And the other thing that I think many business owners should do, which they don't, is who is your ideal client? I get really clear, and not demographically, not like, are they 30 to 50 year old professional women who are tertiary educated and earn over $100 grand a year? That doesn't tell me much about them. I want to know what keeps them up at night, what does success look like, what's their greatest fear, you know, what other brands do they love. And so when you know that type of stuff about your customer you are going to be able to create marketing messages and products and services and offers that hit them between the eyes. And I don't think enough businesses sit back and go, who is it that we really, really want to sell to and what are they like?

Josh: I remember, um, the, uh, the quote, knowing isn't doing. And I, I caught myself when I just started my business. I knew all this stuff about search engine optimization. I was helping all of my mates who were getting their businesses set up and they're like, oh, Josh, it's like working on getting all these clients. I thought, oh fuck, I've got a video production business and I haven't set any of this up. And so I went through and I did all of this work. And so if you type in video production company, we're up there on the top. What are some of the things that you know but you're currently not doing as a marketer? Wow.

Tim: The place I've let myself down the most is not surrounding myself with a team. Them ongoing. I've always— it's always been me. And when I've needed something done, I've found a freelancer. Might have gone to Upwork or Fiverr or asked my mates, you know, who could do this and come in and do it for a short period of time. But I've just never— and I'm going to say I've never had the courage to just actually employ and be responsible for others and have them contribute to the growth of my business. And I think it's because I was a shit employee, and I figured if that was like I was like as an employee, then anyone I employ is going to be like that. And I don't want any more Tim reads.

Josh: Is it almost like treating people like a bit of a commodity? I guess like the gig economy and shit like that. It's like, I can get this thing done and then that's it versus that ongoing relationship.

Tommy: Maybe.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Look, I just think it was just a poor decision and it continues to be a poor decision. You know, I've just joined the PodcastOne network for a number of reasons, but one is that I just am now surrounded by just guns in editing and production and social media and all that. And that's really exciting. And I should have done that that. I should have surrounded myself years ago, but yeah, I can't complain. Life's been good.

Tommy: Have you had the reach out from people that want to be involved with what you do?

Josh: Yep, yep.

Tim: Yeah, I get people saying, you know, is what can I do, you know, can I look after this or that? And you know, sometimes I've said yes, uh, and then other times I just keep moving. But you know, I've got my business to a point where, although now COVID's kind of completely stuffed it because there's no conferences, and I speak at like, you know, between 40 and 60 conferences a year as either a keynote or an MC, so that's gone. And podcasting continues, which is good, and there's revenue there. And I'm actually being forced to pivot. I'm working on a new business idea with my girlfriend Sarah that, you know, I'm excited about. So this kind of freed me up to just think a bit more innovatively.

Tommy: When, when something like COVID happens where you lose 60% of your revenue overnight, does it put a firecracker up your ass, or, you know, pressure? What does it do?

Tim: Me personally, it hasn't. Kind of enjoyed it in a weird kind of way. I don't know if I'd say that if I'd got the virus or, you know, been more affected, but—

Josh: It's because you know everyone's fucked. Is that part of it?

Tim: It's nice to know that we're all in this together.

Josh: Yeah. It's a nice way of saying it.

Tim: What about—

Tommy: George and I were speaking this morning just about it was a slow pace. There was not many cars on the road. It was beautiful. The pressure from building something. And I feel like we're kind of getting back to that now where we're we're on the hill back up and, you know, it's only going back down where it was like it paused everything. There was no hill to go up or we weren't really kind of going back. It was idle.

Josh: It's like when you're in school and you hear that no one else has done their homework.

Tim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: You fucking walk in like, we're on the same, hey, we're in this.

Tim: Just stick with me. Listen to what I say.

Josh: And so what did you do? So what was your reaction then when all these things happened? What did you learn about yourself?

Tim: I'm really interested in slowing down. And that's a function of my age, which I keep referring to. So clearly I have an issue around it.

Josh: Surely Noosa does it as well.

Tommy: Yeah, there is.

Tim: I mean, that part of moving to Noosa was again, like, just—

Tommy: I heard people go actually back down in age when they moved to Noosa. They're running on the beach surfing every day.

Tim: Yeah, it's called liposuction. And I kind of just, I've always liked that idea of slowing down and exploring that and seeing what that means and being kind of a bit of a role model in that because I do represent small businesses in a sense, and I do see them running around manic, and I think, you know, there's more to life. I'm not going to be on my deathbed wishing I'd worked longer hours, you know. I'm going to be definitely wishing I'd worked shorter hours, and I just think it's a really important thing to practice. So I've quite enjoyed that, and I will continue to enjoy that. And it'll be interesting to see whether the rest of the world, you know, there's this kind of— there's two camps, you know. Are we going to go back to our bad old ways, or are we actually going to learn from this and do things differently? Are more of us going to work work from home? Are more employers going to be cool and trust and let people work from home? Are we going to drive less? Are we going to want less? Are we going to— it'd be really interesting. And I'm going to— I personally am going to make a decision to not go back to old ways and try and be a bit kind of more chill.

Josh: It seems like a hard one because on one hand, it's like you talked about businesses, you know, going from day to day from a cash flow perspective and only just surviving. And so the idea of potentially then making a decision based on lifestyle or working less, it feels like there's a contradiction in those two ideas. How do we, how can we possibly, I guess it's playing into that 4-hour work week, passive income. Like everyone wants that, right? We all want to be able to be like, yeah, I go to sleep, I've got a Shopify and you see the fucking numbers go up. What's the reality?

Tim: Do you think that there's I think the reality is where you are in your life. You know, again, you know, there are people probably like you, Josh, who are, you know, building something and you've been forced to take your foot off the pedal. Whereas really, you're gonna— you might— I just want to go 100 miles an hour. I'm onto something here. I'm building it. You know, I had these dreams and by the end of this year I was going to have this and then this. And whereas I don't feel like that, it's not because I have bucket loads of dough. It's just because I feel like I've just— I've run, I've done what I just suggested you're probably wanting to do. And you know, it's just a really nice thing to be able to just sit back and realise one of the, you know, we don't need half the stuff we've got, right? We just don't.

Josh: And I feel like also this brings up the thought that I've had for a while, which is like, if I'm starting a business today, I'd prefer to listen to someone who's just made their first quarter of a million dollars than I would Richard Branson, because there is the disconnect of, And I think that that's where we can fall into the trap of like, we listen to these people who made money years and years ago and it's like they haven't had to fucking worry. Like, it's a very different reality.

Tim: But you don't want an island?

Josh: Islands, I feel like with all the, the, uh, the world, um, yeah, like surely that's gonna—

Tim: So you don't want— Okay.

Josh: Oh, that's beautiful. Tommy and I, yeah, yeah, you know, you can have the island, but then you've gotta— There's a lot that comes with Island, I reckon. Yeah.

Tim: You'd know, clearly. What?

Josh: Well, you can ask.

Tim: Yeah.

Josh: Well, yeah. Think about like utilities or how you're getting internet.

Tommy: Who do you pay? It would have been, are you paying a country that the island resides in?

Tim: Like paying what?

Tommy: Rates?

Tim: Yeah. It'd be just like the islands and, you know, if you're in conversation about rates, you can't afford it. No, I don't really know.

Tommy: But so, rates are expensive in a house. Of families, let alone imagine the island.

Josh: Do you have to pay rego on a car if you're driving it around?

Tommy: Of course.

Tim: I mean, it's just part of like all the islands in the Whitsundays are part of Queensland. And they're actually relatively cheap compared to what you'd think an island is. But the problem is your running costs are outrageous. So, you know, you can't just go and buy one and we were going to give you one, but you said you didn't want it.

Tommy: Absolutely not. In Intuitive Marketing, the storey on that Seth Godin told on your podcast about the plumber that came over and went down into the basement and handed Seth a pad that had 8 pages of contacts that he'd done work for. And he said, call any of them and you can confirm if the work was great. It was, it was a great piece of marketing that probably wasn't like— it's— I think there's a lot of us that just like do things that are intuitively and mark is, you know, there's a bunch of stuff that falls into the marketing category for that. What do you, what do you see from businesses, business owners that you're speaking to? What's the most common intuitive marketing that people are—

Tim: I love those little 1%ers. Like, so you're describing a boilermaker who went into Seth Godin's house in New York, and Seth was getting 2 or 3 quotes, and this one bloke said, you know, this is what I do, this is how I do it, this is how much it costs. And look, here's 8 names who happen to be in the same street or building as Seth's home was. Feel free to call. Seth looked at the list, he knew some of the names on it. He's like, mate, I don't need to call them, you got the job, right? So to me, what that boilermaker did was pretty simple. You call it intuitive, like it's common sense, right? That's like what if you— the questions we ask determine the answers we get. So the question that guy asked is, what would my prospects really like from me in order to make it easy for them to buy from me. Right, so he's gone testimonials and actual phone numbers from people that this guy's going to know. Pretty obvious. I interviewed a lawn mower guy, a lawn care guy from Tennessee the other week, Brian Clayton, and he built the biggest lawn care business in Tennessee, $10 million turnover. And I said, how'd you do it? And he said, you know, the little 1%ers, those little things. And one thing he did, two lessons here, you don't know who knows who and just go the extra mile. He was mowing a guy's lawn who happened to be a McDonald's franchisee. So one day he says, and he'd do that, you know, it's $20, mow the lawn, see you later. One day he got talking to his client and said, oh, you're a McDonald's franchisee, can I do your lawns at your McDonald's store? By chance, the guy said, yeah, you can. And so then Lawnmower Man Brian does the lawns at the local McDonald's, but also picks up all the cigarette butts in the drive-through. Simple, doesn't cost him much, low perceived cost to Brian, high perceived, high value to, to the McDonald's store owner. So then the McDonald's store owner goes, you're awesome, um, I've got some mates who are franchisees as well, do you want me to hook you up with them? And all of a sudden, from picking up the cigarette butts in the drive-through, this guy's now building a big business doing all the McDonald's stores around Tennessee. So I just think the 1%ers— I'll give you one more example, which is— I love this example, and it's an example, it's an electrician, the owner of an electrician's franchise out of New South Wales, and he just recognised that tradies are hopeless in terms of turning up on time, about being on site and doing things in a polite, clean, noise-free way and all that stuff. So Josh from Platinum Electricians Jones, who was my guest on the show, had created a 21-step customer mantra. And every single time one of his electricians went on site to a business or a home, they must follow these 21 steps. Now, he didn't reveal all the 21 steps. He revealed about 11 of them, but they were simple things like arrive 5 minutes early, not 15 minutes late. Don't park in the driveway or walk across the grass. Use any paths. Wipe your feet and take your shoes off and put on these booties. If you see If you see a light globe out in the home, replace it. Don't ask, just replace it on the way out. Say, hey, listen, I replaced the globe free of charge, no worries. So all these things individually, they're like, that was a fucking Philips Hue.

Josh: That cost me.

Tim: That's right.

Tommy: My app had it off.

Tim: Yeah, exactly. But all these things individually, they're not groundbreaking, but add them up and that is an awesome business experience that you are building.

Josh: Marketing versus sales. What's the difference?

Tim: Marketing draws in people, sales converts them.

Josh: Do you think marketers need to be salespeople?

Tim: No, I think they have a need to understand. I mean, in an ideal world, I talk to small business owners, so sometimes they have to be both, right? But ideally, always marketing and sales should work together. And I had a great example just this morning of a guest who, he has a town planning business where he gets council approval for people wanting to do dual occupancies and all that kind of stuff. And he learned, and he'd measured this, his conversion rate when he put a marketer or a technician like a town planner or someone on a new call with a prospect was 5%. It went up to 20% the minute he put salespeople on those prospecting calls. Yeah, who could actually, instead of doing the sell, would find out about the prospect, what their needs were, what their problems were. What success looked like, all that kind of stuff, and then offered them a solution, and the conversion rate went up. So I think sales is an incredible skill, not for the faint-hearted. And yeah, it should be focused on by salespeople, marketing by marketing, but they should talk.

Tommy: What about if you're a great marketer as a small business owner but no good at sales, but you're creating sales through your marketing efforts? Can you, can you be stronger in the marketing department, which solves a slight problem at the beginning, before you pull in other people to help?

Tim: Uh, let me understand that quick. Can you rephrase that question?

Tommy: So if I'm a great marketer that's creating marketing material, it's getting people hyped about what I'm doing, and then it's converting them into the sale. So a sale is into an inquiry, into an inquiry, or even a sale through a website.

Josh: And then if they've already— if they're selling a minute, then sales too, right?

Tommy: Well, it is sales too, but I might not be— I might not be good at—

Josh: so it's like, yeah, if you get marketing, people know about your brand, getting them there the final step. I guess it's that thing of marketing a shit product.

Tim: I mean, you know, you'll sell it once. Yeah, you will sell it once. You know, great salespeople— there is a great distinction, you know. And I interviewed a fantastic sales guy a few years ago, and he had a philosophy: ABC— always be closing. And that's what salespeople do. They're always trying to figure out how to close the deal, whereas marketers are trying to figure out how to get more people in. Whose deals can be closed.

Josh: Public relations and marketing? Where do—

Tim: PR is just— if marketing is a pie, PR is a wedge, you know, as is advertising, as is direct marketing, as is sponsorship, as is networking, as is, you know, so it's just a wedge. And PR is just the ability to get noticed by the media.

Josh: And because you hear people talk about, I'm a growth hacker, or there's all these different, you know, words that we use to describe what marketing is. Is there any version or a role if you were to create a marketer for 2020? What does that pie look like? What should they be focusing on? How are you— should you be a specialist? Should you be well-rounded?

Tim: It depends on what the business is, right? It depends what the budget is. But, you know, there are some fundamental things like, like marketing, whether it's 2020 or 1920, you know, the fundamentals remain unchanged. One, one is get your message right first before you worry about where to put it. So you've got message and medium, right? Too many business owners race off and get medium sorted out. I'm going to get a website, I'm going to get on Twitter, I'm going to go to every networking event that the local chamber has. Like, that's such an easy decision to make. The hard decision is what am I going to say when I get a website? What am I going to say when I go to a Chamber of Commerce event? And that's where you've got to put the work into your pitch, into your offer, into your call to action. What do you want people to do if you get them excited? This is hard. This is the harder part of marketing, and many don't do it. So it's a fundamental part, the understanding of your avatar or your, your ideal customer. Fundamental, you know, to the point where I interviewed Jerry, uh, Jerry Ryan, Jayco Caravans. Jerry Ryan, I think it is. He's the founder of Jayco Caravans. He has taken that avatar thing and understanding your audience to the nth degree, which is on the caravan production line at Jayco there is a photo of the person, couple, or family that have bought that caravan, that one that's being assembled. So the engineers and the mechanics and everyone constructing that van going, oh, that's the van we're putting together for Josh, you know? And then they put, you know, because he didn't want the island. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, I don't think it matters what, where we are in, on the timeline. Fundamentally, great marketing doesn't change and how we go about it.

Josh: So you were the ideas guy, that people have a lot of ideas. Has your perception changed of ideas with execution or how do you see it now?

Tim: Yeah, someone once said to me early on when I started the ideas guy, there's no shortage of ideas. And that really kind of hurt. It's like, but I'm the guy and I'm the guy and I've got the domain. So what do you want? But I very quickly realised that that is the case, and it was about execution and implementation. And that's where, that's where the magic happens. It's really, you know, it really is. You know, I, I get listeners who say, I've got journals full of ideas from your podcast. That's awesome. I hope you're implementing them. You know, I'd rather know about one idea implemented that four times your business than a journal full of 100 ideas that you've done nothing with.

Tommy: You think it's that the ideas are too big for people to action, or it's the fear that they—

Tim: There's a certain excitement about just getting the idea.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tim: Like capturing it. You talked about, one of you said, you know, listening to my show in the early days and being excited by it. I listened to a podcast in the early days and was just completely mesmerized. And if only I'd implemented, I'd be, I'd probably be on an island by now. You know, so yeah, you can, there is that element of excitement and there is so much content out there. I don't think there's too much content, but there is so much content that you've kind of got to decide, okay, I'm going to listen. That is my source. And whatever they say, within reason, I will action, as opposed to just dropping the line in all over the place and hoping something will catch.

Josh: Timbo, thank you for coming on the show. That was good fun. The podcast, have you— do you feel like it's— it's with PodcastOne and everything, what's changing? Is there any going to be any differences that we're going to be able to notice?

Tim: You'll hear a happier Timbo because I'm not doing everything. I have a complete support— no, I have a complete support team around me, which is going to free me up. One of the things I've realized, and there'll be plenty of business owners who realise this anyway because they are employing and they have surrounded themselves with teams, is that it's freeing me up just to think creatively about my guests, the research that I do for my— on my guests, and just the way I can sit back on the microphone during an interview knowing that I've actually done the work and that everything else is going to be done, from editing to social media management to production to booking next week's guests in the studio and getting it out there. So that's pretty—

Tommy: that's a real freeing feeling What's the promise of your podcast in terms of the frequency? How often are you dropping?

Tim: Once a week.

Tommy: Once a week. Have you missed it?

Tim: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but hey, you know, I've lost faith, uh, in myself sometimes. Um, you just get exhausted and you go, am I going to do this? But it doesn't take much. You mean, I get just extraordinary letters or emails from listeners who just— even today I got one which is just like like, I mean, I read this stuff and I go, who are they talking about? Yeah, it's me or my guests or my show. And it's like, oh, that's awesome. So no, I might— I, I've— it's been a roller coaster. It's been more up than down, but there are times when you just sort of question what you're doing. And, you know, 11 years is a long time. And, you know, I sort of sometimes think maybe I should have followed the Fawlty Towers strategy, which is create 11 episodes and make them as scarce as possible, make them as good as possible and just, you know, have people listen to them over and over again. Other times I wish I'd gone in seasons where I've gone, you know, a particular theme and done 10 episodes around that and then come back 6 weeks later for another go. But I committed many years ago to a weekly podcast and yeah, probably, but it's certainly been more on than off.

Josh: I feel like it's an important time too with everyone sort of trying to figure out what they're doing, having the ambiguity. When you listen listen to the podcast, I think you get a sense that there is a community and there's people listening and hanging on for that. So it's, it's almost that sort of, you know, typically you go to a, you know, the council chambers, you know, there's all these different sort of business networking things, but being able to do it where it's geographically unrestricted and you can be getting a bloke in the States talking about lawn mowing, like, I feel like that's super, super exciting.

Tim: Yeah, yeah, I had a bloke in the States talking about cuddling selling. He sold cuddles.

Josh: Really? Yeah.

Tim: You guys would have had some crazy gigs. What did that cost?

Josh: Yeah, what did he pay for his flash website?

Tommy: How much does a cuddle cost, by the way?

Tim: I think it was about, it was actually about $90 for an hour.

Josh: Real affair.

Tim: An hour cuddle? For an hour?

Tommy: I know.

Josh: What does COVID safe look like for a cuddle? He's charging $150 and it includes a bottle of tarp. For the hand sanitizer. All right, boys, you are the wind beneath my wing, fellas.

Tim: Well, under you here am I talking about 500 episodes, but the Daily Talk Show, what, 766?

Tommy: What's our marketing from a glance to you? How do you see it? What do you—

Tim: what does that question even mean?

Tommy: At what we're doing, that's bringing people in visually. Like, I mean, you look at a brand, you can go, oh, they're putting themselves out there. Yeah, the copy's here, they're communicating communicating themselves.

Tim: One of you is incredibly analy intensive because your brand consistency is awesome. Who is it? Which one?

Tommy: I don't know. It's, um, I mean, this is a team effort.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I think, yeah, there's been— in terms of branding, Josh is very adamant about, yeah, a lot of one percenters.

Tim: But that's such an easy thing. Like, if I look around, you know, you've got the sign on the wall there, you've got the hoodie, you know, you've got the sticker on the computer, you know, it's all around the place and it's just consistent. I mean, the amount of businesses that I see where, you know, let's talk about a cafe. The logo on the menu is different to the logo outside, is different to the logo on the counter. The font being used here is different to the one there. There's different uniforms and all that just minimises trust. So a simple way of building trust is to have a beautifully consistent brand visually. It sounds really simplistic, but it's such a quick win.

Josh: I think that's where, like when we started, we weren't in love with the original logo. So it was hard to— you're doing a merch run and you didn't feel good, so it's like, well, you need to get it. But on the, the flip side of the coin, it's like people get obsessed. Like, it's so weird because that makes so much sense, but at the same time, there are people who are going to spend hours and hours on a logo who are never going to be able to build a brand because they've never been able to make someone feel anything because they've spent so much time in Photoshop.

Tim: And well, that's right. And you know, Just to finish off, because brand is a very overused term in marketing, probably one of the most overused terms. And my favourite definition of a brand is it's an emotional attachment. So you use the word feeling, Josh, and it is. I mean, it's great to have a visual logo and it's good that it's consistent everywhere. It's just a ticket to the game. You know, what you want to be building is an emotional attachment between you and your prospect, because when they are emotionally engaged with you, they are less likely to look elsewhere and they'll be happy to pay a little bit more. More because they just like being a part of what you're creating. And, uh, again, we've got to kind of focus a bit more on that than just kind of the rational side of marketing.

Josh: Yeah, you've definitely nailed the branding. I was even saying to the guys, like, you've got a vernacular. Like, I'll finish the show doing a bit of a Timbo read, how I think you would end it. Uh, plenty of nuggets to take away from that episode if you just implement one of them. If you do something great, if you, you And that's all I've got. It was maybe nothing.

Tim: Flapping in the wind there. Sounded like an episode of Steve Irwin coming to a close. Plenty of nuggets under this rock, fellas. But I'm not there.

Josh: No, I think that's good. Did you ever read the Boren Letters? It was like a marketing, but it was very good in just the, you talk, it's that headline stuff. It's the, you're not afraid to be a bit hyperbolic or a little bit sort of. Gossip.

Tommy: Dripping.

Josh: Yeah, you're just, yeah, go dripping. That's your word.

Tim: That's exactly right.

Josh: Dripping off the nugget.

Tim: Oh yeah, there is marketing gold dripping from the ceiling over here at the Small Business Big Marketing HQ. So let's get stuck right in.

Josh: I love it. I love it. Timbo Reid. Thanks, mate. It's a daily talk show. See you tomorrow, guys.

Tim: See you guys.