Sustainable Coffee Cups - Russell Touyz (Eco Barista)

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 755.

Tommy: Back off a long weekend for the Gronk Squad. We've got Russell Towers on the show. Welcome, buddy. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me, mate. You're coming in live from, um, Perth.

Josh: Uh, we need—

Tommy: I mean, you straight off the bat, you're, you're our coffee expert for the show. Uh, you work for Eco Barista. You started the Paper Cup Project and you're on the ground in Perth. And I need to understand the legitimacy of— Seb's girlfriend lives in Perth. What's her order? What's her coffee order? Long mac topped up. Long mac topped?

Josh: No, you—

Tommy: hang on. I haven't heard that one in Melbourne. Long mac topped is what you used to say.

Russell: Yeah, but then I got corrected. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And so what is that for the Melbourne— for For the Melbourne audience, what actually is that?

Russell: That's a latte with an extra shot or a strong latte. That's identical. It only exists in WA. It's very, but yeah, that's my order as well. It's very funny how you go to Melbourne and Sydney, you say long mac topped up and you might just get like a traditional macchiato and WA people are like, what is this? And they'll be like, well, that's what you asked for. But really, yeah, it's a latte with an extra shot or a strong latte.

Tommy: Oh, I'm so glad we cleared it up, 'cause you would've got it in the wrong order, 'cause if you asked us, we'd be like, no, it's a long mac just with more milk, and then you would've butchered it and lost the relationship, so thank you.

Josh: What are some other sort of things that only happen in Perth? What are the—

Russell: That's pretty much it, that's iconic, I reckon. Long mac topped up is the iconic WA order, and it just doesn't exist anywhere else in Australia, which is bizarre to think that Australia has a divide in orders. We're usually pretty universal in this sense, but the long mac topped up and the strong latte or a latte with extra shot, all very, very similar.

Josh: I mean, in Melbourne, I feel like we talk about being sort of the coffee city of, you know, of the entire world. I actually went to Kraków in Poland. They do extremely good coffee, and I feel like, and they would say that when people from Melbourne go to their cafes if they like their coffee. It's a big deal. But I don't know whether this is a bit of bullshit. Is— what's your perception of Melbourne and coffee being in Perth and being in the industry?

Russell: I think Australia as a whole, I think we are pretty blessed in the sense that we are probably one of the leading countries in the coffee industry for sure. So I wouldn't be surprised about that Krakow storey at all, and Melbourne in particular, by far the biggest, the bit, the biggest coffee capital in Australia for sure, which is great. I think it's awesome because like, I don't know, I don't know if there's many things like that in Australia that we've got in that sense, but we've got it down to a fine art. I mean, even America, it's very different there. I mean, it's growing now. The Australians have definitely had the influence there, and there's some, you know, really cool cafes that exist there that are Australian managed, and they're teaching them about flat whites, or they've got Australian residents that go to American cafes knowing that they can get those sort of like smashed avo and flat white combo as they have it at home. Yeah, so I think it's great. It's, it's, we're like educating the world and I love it.

Tommy: Do you know the Melbourne order, like, that's specific to Melbourne?

Russell: When I go, I've got a few mates in Melbourne and we always usually sit around a table and then we all just say like 6 strong lattes.

Tommy: And I don't know, is that, is that, well, that's very, yeah, I think it's become more so. Magic was one., that's quite specific to Melbourne, Magic. It's a, it's basically a strong 3/4 latte, but it's the ristretto, so it's not just a full, full double shot, it's the ristretto part of it, which I mean, getting into it early— nah, because then it's, it's more about— they, they try to make it about the richness of the flavor. I just like the, the strong, just like feel like I'm really getting a hit with a double strength latte, 3/4. But we're talking about, um Specific things to Perth. Selfies with Quokkas. That's very Perth.

Josh: That's WA, I guess.

Tommy: Sorry, WA. Very WA. Over the weekend— sorry, Russ, I just haven't seen the boys since the weekend— I saw a platypus.

Josh: Like Victoria.

Tommy: Within 15 minutes from our office in Melbourne, on the fringe of the city. I saw a platypus. I mean, how good's that?

Russell: I've never seen one before.

Tommy: Mate, the Yarra River, just near my joint, platypus walking across the bridge.

Josh: It can't be doing too well if it's in the yard.

Tommy: No, no, it was hunting. It was beautiful. And I just saw this little thing bobbing up and down. I walked past this old man. He's like, it was like one of those when you see something so cool and you really want someone to ask you. And I think he's just, we said hello and he took that as a moment to engage and say, yeah, have you seen the platypus over there? And then we stopped and looked and saw this platypus. It was, I felt very Australian. Like that is a native animal. That is so close to the city. So that was the highlight of my weekend.

Josh: If we're doing highlights, Russ, what was the highlight of your weekend?

Russell: Well, nothing that compares to that. A platypus, that's incredible. And I feel quite un-Australian listening to that, like that I haven't. I think I've seen it. Is it on a 20-cent coin? What coin's it on?

Tommy: Is it on the coin? It's on something. It's one of them. What we went down the rabbit hole this morning while having coffee with Georgie boy was, has anyone, 'cause I told my mate and he said, ah, they've got barbs on them or stingers. And then we looked down the rabbit hole of, has anyone been killed by a platypus?

Josh: And what's the answer?

Tommy: No, no one's ever been killed by a platypus, which is, it's good. It's a good result.

Josh: I'm glad you got the platypus banter out.

Tommy: Had to.

Josh: So, the Paper Cut Project, can you explain? What that was?

Russell: Sure, so that was something I started with two other mates in 2016, and it was about, I guess, using the paper cup as an advertising tool or a way of spreading awareness or raising awareness. I just felt that besides having your phone in your hand, I think every day someone would have a takeaway cup in their hand, and this was well before the Warram Way, so paper cups were just perceived as normal. There wasn't much hate around them, and we used to think, okay, what about if we went to these big companies or businesses and say, we can get your brand on these cups and we can get them in the hands of millennials in a really engaging way. And it wasn't like we were like the first to think of cup advertising, that had been done to death. If anything, we thought the uniqueness we could do would be to work with local artists in a way that the cup didn't really feel like advertising. It was sort of something that people would be drawn to. They'd look at it and they'd be— they'd want to investigate further. And then from there, I, I like— I love the idea of like Urban List and Broadsheet, where each day there'd be a new post about a local business or a local event or an art exhibition or, you know, raising awareness for a not-for-profit, anything that's sort of happening or the pulse of the city. I thought, why not we like, you know, every month we could have a new cup, a new artist, a new few businesses on the side to learn about and create like this sort of support local community. That was sort of the goal.

Josh: And what's the biggest challenge in doing something like that?

Russell: Um, well, I knew nothing about cups to start off with. I, I had a graphic design background and I just assumed, you know, how hard could it be with paper cups? As long as they don't leak or, you know, hurt you while you're holding it, how hard can it be? But really it wasn't, it wasn't that simple because we're in a country where Coffee is literally an art form. Everything is measured out to the milliliter, um, you know, how hot it is in the hand. All of that is really thought out by roasters and cafes, which sounds crazy, but that's why things are the way they are and how good they are, because, you know, we've got really a lot of experimentation behind it. Um, so yeah, I had to sort of find a supplier that was going to have got that sort of reputation already so that all we needed to do was sort of focus on the artwork, the businesses, and essentially the marketing of it.

Tommy: And at what point, you mentioned War on Waste, and there's a classic scene in that doco where they filled a tram. I know the behind the scenes, it wasn't filled. They just like put on the windows, like they put cups so it looked like the whole entire tram was full of paper cups. And that sort of was bringing light to the fact of how many are used, per year. I mean, 7-Eleven sells 70 million cups of coffee per year, so that's just one business. Imagine Coles and all the unique businesses around Australia. At what point did your, you know, focus come from, I need a cup supplier, to I need this to be sustainable? And that sort of whole messaging around sustainability when it comes to coffee cups.

Russell: That's a really good point. To be honest, I think, I don't know, I think maybe because my age and stage or just the demographic around it, I think it was just a no-brainer decision for us to always work with the most sustainable option at the time. So we went to Ecobarista from day one. That was just because we did a bit of research. We thought, you know, if we're gonna be talking about businesses and brands, we should do it in the most sustainable way. And that was before the war on waste. In saying that, I probably wouldn't have called it The Paper Cut Project. It was a really easy name to come up with, but also it sort of created a negative stigma after this, like there was a negative stigma behind paper cups after the documentary, especially with that tram scene that you're talking about. It was burned in people's minds, that image. So I guess if looking at all the cups that we produced during the Paper Cup Project sort of time, none of them said like this cup is compostable, it's not lined with plastic, you know, it's a better single-use option than the tradition— the ones that you're seeing, like you said, the 7-Eleven ones that were lined with polyethylene, so like a plastic. Um, so that was a huge thing that we sort of— I had to sort of stop and just realize, okay, decide where am I going to go from here.

Josh: If I just get a coffee that says that it's compostable and I just put it in the normal bin, am I doing— am I doing the— doing it right or am I doing it wrong?

Russell: It's not like right or wrong. I think everyone's trying to do their best, um, and, and, you know, by choosing cafes with compostable is, is the best way forward. But unfortunately, um, compostable cups need to be put into compost, so it needs to go into an organic waste bin. And that's sort of our— that's why I want to say from the bat, like, right off the get-go, that reusable cups are definitely the best option. Um, but our goal and our vision is to try and create organic waste bins more sort of easily accessible for just people like you and me, but also at cafes and at roasters. And then from that point onwards, we can create a completely closed-loop end of life for these cups. So yeah, general waste recycling, it's probably still going to take some time. And I guess the big thing is knowing the difference between biodegradable and compostable. So biodegradable, I guess you don't really have a concrete time as to how long it's going to take, and also it just means that is that it's gonna break down into smaller pieces of plastic. Whereas compostable, if you put it in compost, it'll turn into like nutrient-rich soil straight away, it'll begin that process. So, that sort of knowing the difference is a huge thing.

Tommy: So, if we get a lay of the land of the cup scene, 'cause I know JJ's been called out on Instagram for holding a cup.

Josh: Well, do you remember like in the early days of Instagram, you could take a photo of like if you were out and about and having a coffee, and you're using just a— it didn't matter what cup, you could take a photo, a photo in the background, you know. But you can't, like, nowadays I feel like the expectation is that if you do that, you're showing that you're a bit, um, behind the times.

Tommy: I mean, yeah.

Josh: And then there's also the, uh, the, the lids, and then not knowing, okay, is a lid good? Is the cup bad? Which bit do I put in which thing?

Tommy: Um, it's complicated. What— so the I mean, the no-go is the polystyrene cup. That's an old school. I don't even know where they are anymore. But what are the lay of the land of the cups in terms of the different types and what, how you can even identify if one's lined with plastic and—

Russell: Sure, I think because of the price point of, so the best, we feel the best option is compostable. I would say the lay of the land is there's ones lined in plastic, so PE, and they are, They're not great. There's nothing really good about them besides the fact that they're cheap for cafe owners. Then there's this recyclable cup that's sort of being marketed quite a lot. You'll see it at the Australian Open or Westfield Centre, the Simply Cup sort of recyclable cup. That's a really interesting one as well. But again, you have to drop it off at a correct collection point. It can't just be universally put in a recycling bin. You need to find Simply Cup drop-offs. So again, you need to find some sort of location for that. So we sort of love compostable in the sense that it's a universal process. Like, you can compost it here, you can compost it anywhere. You don't need a specific company to do it. It's just the idea of composting. That's why we like that option. And knowing if it's compostable or not, usually because of the price point, if a company is producing producing compostable cups, they're going to be screaming about it. So it'll be written on the cup, it'll say compostable. Look for compostable, not biodegradable, because they are very different things. You can write biodegradable on the ones lined with plastic, which is why that— there's— there's— that's why there's so much confusion, because people are getting thrown these terms without knowing what they mean. So I like to say look for the word compostable or the chemical PLA or polylactic acid. Which is sort of like a cornstarch bioplastic, so it's a plastic alternative. Those are the things to look for. Usually they'll write it underneath the cup, if not on it. So, there's like small writing under here, they will usually say it there for sure. If they don't, if there's no information, you can just assume that it's not great.

Josh: I went to Munich a year and a half ago and there—

Tommy: He's well-travelled, you can tell.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Krakow, Munich. Well, I feel like when you go to—

Tommy: I'm the animal guy on the show, Josh is the travel guy.

Josh: Munich's crazy when it comes to how progressive they are with all plastics and stuff. I got a takeaway item and then decided to have in, and they said, sorry, you actually can't do it. Like, legally, you're not allowed to do it. And they told me in a very German way, which was fine. I ended up leaving, and I thought it was a good thing. But I just wanted to say that I've been to Munich.

Russell: Yeah, what's your point?

Josh: Where's this going? So, city-wise, like, is there any cities in Australia that are actually doing these things well? And does it matter if it's biodegradable or compost if people aren't doing the compost bit? Because I would, I would have to guess that 90% of all cups that are bought that are compostable cups— this is just a random number that I'm creating right now, uh, 90% of cups aren't even being composted once they're being used. And so do you, like, how do you control every part of the process to make sure that people are doing that last bit?

Russell: Yeah, that, that's, that's a really good point. And, you know, transparently, I'm the— I just believe in transparency. And when I meet with roasters and cafes, I always say that from the beginning. I'm like, it's great that you're using compostable cups, but it means nothing unless they're actually being composted, um, which is done. There's no point, there's no difference. You might as well just use the poly, um, polyethylene or the plastic line ones. Um, in saying that, uh, I can only really talk about WA, but we're blessed to have a company called Right Solutions here, which is a private company. Um, and they offer a really good compost service, um, and an affordable compost service. And what's even, uh, great about them is that they drop off the nutrient-rich soil after they've finished the compost process. So you can put it on your herb garden or you can give it to customers, and then you start creating that connection and and that understanding that, you know, we can create that sort of loop. Um, but our goal for this year is each state is to pretty much find that sort of right solutions in each state that we can rely upon, pass it on to those cafes and make sure that they've got a bin that sort of says this is compostable. You have to bring back your cup to the cafe, which is another deterring, um, problem. But, uh, I'm trying to sort of create, you know how you get like loyalty stamps for when you get a cup of coffee. It would be great in the same way that people are bringing you reusable cups if they just bring back their used paper cup, drop it off, and get the stamp at that point, and then sort of create the loyalty when they bring back the used cup rather than when they've bought the coffee at the beginning. And then that sort of creates a loyalty, and B, um, you're getting more cups into, into a compost stream. But yeah, reusable cups obviously best.

Tommy: If you think about the money that the government is pulling out based on what's happening at the moment, understanding that the coffee industry is huge. Is— do you have a number around what the coffee industry in Australia generates per year?

Russell: I don't, I don't. I know it's large, but just in saying that, with the government side of things, I always ask myself, wouldn't it just like so much of this problem be solved if we had another bin that was just called organics waste? Organic waste rather, because it begs the question, like, there's even just your cardboard packaging can be composted, um, you know, your food scraps, all of that is really great and you can turn the soil into really like nutrient-rich soil. So it begs the question, like, why do we have, um, like a recycling bin and, and, and the landfill levy that we're paying? Like, I just think there's a— if, if ABC ever want to do another documentary, I'd love for that to be explored, um, because I've seen, I've I've physically seen the cups being composted. I've seen the soil come out of it and I know it works. So, I just can't understand why, like for us at home when we're disposing on bin night, like our recycling bin's full and I'm like, I don't know if any of this is actually going to be recycled.

Josh: And so then—

Russell: Unfortunately, yeah.

Josh: And so, with the compost stuff, like if I had a compost bin at home, how many cups, could I be putting 4 cups a day? Like I could just imagine my compost bin turning into a, like a cup fest, like a lot of cups to worm ratio.

Russell: To achieve, I don't know too much about the science unfortunately, and I'm trying to learn about it more and more each day, but you need to have a balance of compounds.

Josh: So I need to eat some oranges too.

Tommy: He's gonna finally eat fruit. Yeah, a few bananas.

Russell: Exactly.

Josh: Yeah, fruits not even—

Russell: You can cut the cups up and they really condense quite quickly if you cut them up, but they do need do need other things. They need like vegetable scraps and other sort of, yeah, discards. Well, what you achieve that compost—

Tommy: what you're talking about is still living at home with your parents and your old man still does a compost. Like, my dad has a compost bin.

Russell: My dad, yeah.

Josh: We've—

Russell: I mean, we've got two worm bins as well.

Tommy: And so, yeah, but it's like, like, that's just starting now.

Russell: Like, my council, they've now got a compost bin, and so you get like a little— great, you know, I guess compost bag, and you just throw all your scraps, scraps in there. And it's just gone off to a facility. But yeah, you can throw stuff in there as well, like meat and everything. That's great. Crazy.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, and then there's— it's, it's such a hard one because then at a, um, you live in an apartment block, Josh, which is a whole nother battle where there's communal areas.

Josh: Plants alive.

Tommy: But then there's the communal areas where stuff's getting like the, the neglect that comes with it. I guess there's there's so much of a focus on it now. How much of your day is consumed by thinking about this kind of stuff, Russ?

Russell: A lot of it now. At the beginning, we were always thinking about like, what new products can we do? And then I just felt that the best thing right now, it would be for us to just completely dedicate our focus on providing collection points for our cafes and roasters. Because from there, if we're doing that really well, I think people will just want to work with us because that's the first question everyone asks is, where's it going to go? So I'm just thinking, you know, rather than doing new colours and new artworks on the cups and all that, I'm just thinking let's focus on creating an end of life. And I think that people would much prefer having that. And from there, once we've got that, you know, working really well, we can start, you know, making them look prettier and more on brand for cafes and roasters.

Josh: I feel like so much of this is habit change. And trying to get consumers to change habits. Have you looked into or explored what it takes to get consumers to actually change their habits around this?

Russell: Well, I thought the KeepCup era was really interesting. I thought it was amazing in the sense how quickly it took. After that documentary, I feel like everyone sort of bought one pretty much that night. So it's possible consumer behaviour Changing it is possible. Whether or not the retention of that, I don't know, because I know that a lot of people maybe bought KeepCups and then was like, "Shit, I forgot them," or, "I forgot to bring it," or, "I left it in my car," or, "It's in my office, you know, I can't have a coffee today 'cause I've left it in my car." But, you know, it's good that people thought, "Okay, yeah, I need to change, I need to do something," and there's people out here that will religiously still use them, which is great. So it can be done, but at the end of the day, you really do need to make sure make things simple. The harder you make it, it just won't take, and that's just the way it is. It's extremely hard to change consumer behavior, so you need to try and just put it in front of them that it's pretty much— what they're doing is autonomous. It's just they don't even think what they're doing, and they just, they put it in there and it's done. So you've got to, you've got to spoon-feed it, really.

Tommy: Well, how's it all been during COVID Because I know there's been a whole bunch of rules implemented in cafes in Melbourne. What's the lay of the land in Western Australia.

Russell: Yeah, really interesting. What, what came of that was, I guess, people didn't really think of KeepCups as a way that they could, you know, carry germs, and, and cafe owners and baristas were a little bit worried about, you know, touching things that people would put their mouths on. And I understand that, and that's a legitimate concern. But what was really great is that a lot of cafes who were like going, okay, we're going to do takeaway only, they thought instead of using polyethylene cups, now let's move up. It's worth it for us to pay more and try and get, you know, an Organics Waste Bin in our cafe and use compostable cups. So that was good. They sort of forced— they were forced to sort of move to a really premium single-use option. So that's been good. I do think keep cups will slowly come back, which is also really good. Um, but I just think no one really knows what's going on with COVID at the moment. So we sort of— everyone's just forcing to adapt, which has also been really interesting. For the, for the coffee industry is how they've adapted to COVID.

Josh: When you say premium, how much more a cafe's paying to have, say, a high-quality, um, you know, positive-impact coffee cup like Ecobarista versus using some sort of really, um, you know, dangerous, dangerous one? What, what's the, what's the difference in cost?

Russell: Sure, so cafes sort of traditionally order cups and lids in cartons of 1,000. And let's just talk about a single unit here. I would say in WA, the most common size is 12 ounce. Also, that's another conversation point, why we are talking ounces in Australia, but everyone—

Josh: What is that in mils?

Russell: What is it? It's like 330, I think.

Josh: 330 mils.

Tommy: Seb can work that out.

Josh: Throw me off on my drinking ounces.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I don't even bother with Siri anymore. I'm just so disappointed all the time. You're gonna have to unlock your phone for that. Okay. Why even say anything back? It's annoying. And so anyway, so you get the, what ounce did you say?

Tommy: So that—

Russell: Yeah, so 12 ounce in WA is probably the most common. I think in Melbourne it might actually be the 8 ounce, which is more common, which is less. So WA love their milk. 12 ounce, a cup would be like 6 cents for a plastic-lined one. And then for a compostable one or PLA-lined one would be about 10 cents. So it's a jump up. And then you've got the lids. So you've got like compostable lids, which are like this translucent color. I don't know if this is great. I'm using it. But it's like a translucent, it's not actually plastic. It's made with that PLA material I was telling you about. Instead of being 4 cents, that's like 6.5 cents. So it jumps up every time we're not using plastic because obviously the good thing about I'm not saying that plastic's great. I'm just saying the reason plastic is used everywhere is because it can do whatever and it can do it really cheaply. Whereas PLA, it's harder to produce and there's less of it around the world, so the price goes up.

Tommy: I mean, since going, we went to the States last year.

Josh: All right.

Tommy: Sorry about that, we went to California.

Josh: Stayin' holly, stayin' holly. You did, you did. Holy cow, Los Angeles, it's the Daily Talk Show, wankers.

Tommy: That was the worst voice.

Josh: It was actually accent agnostic, so it was all good.

Tommy: No, it was actually a real dig at game show people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: You can't do that anymore, mate. You'll be called out for it. No, Whole Foods, last time I was there, had plastic straws and then they've gone from plastic to paper straws. And that is a huge move in a business of that scale. Like how much pressure is on businesses in Australia that are the, the big ones like 7-Eleven and Coles Express and all these people doing, you know, fast coffee. It's almost like, how much pressure is there?

Russell: Huge pressure. It's amazing to think the consumer power we've got. It's, you have, you're forced to change. You really don't have much of a say. The unfortunate thing is, you know, paper straws, I don't know about you guys, I hate them. I hate the soggy feeling in my mouth, but you know, it's great that there's new things out there for like if you're drinking cold drinks.

Josh: And metal hurts my teeth too.

Russell: Oh, and then it's—

Tommy: 'Cause there's something limp and something rock hard.

Josh: There's no in between.

Tommy: There's no in between.

Josh: And so what is the answer? Do you guys do a straw solution?

Russell: We don't really deal with straws. We just think that there's really nothing salvageable about them. But what I have seen from a different supplier, um, giving them some credit here. But, um, it's those, uh, the cold brew cups. So you got your pretty much your, your clear cups, but it's a sippy cup essentially.

Josh: It's like an adult sippy cup, so it's got a spout.

Russell: Yeah, we're all just looking like adult babies walking around. Takes away the need for straws. So I think that's great.

Josh: Now we all wear— can all wear diapers and we're done.

Tommy: It is real baby-like. I, I actually know someone who has a bunch of cafes in there They adamant, we will not ever serve sippy cups.

Josh: Oh really?

Tommy: Sippy cup lids based on it just being a sort of low status.

Josh: As in the sippy cup as in?

Tommy: Sippy cup as in for your coffee cup. They've just got the lip on it. Oh, the lip.

Josh: Yeah, having a big lip on a cup to me seems a bit bogan. Like I remember—

Tommy: You're definitely getting a little biscuit on top.

Josh: Yeah, but also the texture, like the, Like when I went to Queensland. When I went to Queensland, they had— Well traveled. They had like, you know, the feeling of like the textured way, like it had like a crinkly sort of— Ripple. Yeah, ripple. Ribbed. And I sort of feel like that's almost—

Russell: Ribbed for your pleasure.

Josh: Yeah, but it feels like it's surely that can't be good for the environment because I feel like one of the big signs of whether something's good or bad is like if they can afford to do all the bells and whistles and have like the extra piece and things like that, probably not great. Any other really sort of telltale signs? Yeah, telltale signs of a dirty cup.

Russell: I, I, double wall. If you've ever, do you know double wall? That's when it's sort of like, it's got like a, like a ridge and then it's like the cup and then it's like a ridge and then it's another whole layer. It's for people that don't want to hurt their hands. First question is, how hot are you making the coffee?

Josh: But also dangerous. Like, I know my mum at her place, they have the, like, the double glazing glasses.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, I love those.

Josh: It seems like it's floating. Annoying though, because you don't know anything about the temperature of the coffee. So you—

Tommy: Yeah, true.

Josh: So that, yeah, straight out of the Nespresso, you can really burn yourself.

Tommy: I mean, coffee sleeves too, they're not, they're not big. They're not big in Australia. They're everywhere in the States.

Russell: For long blacks. Yeah, yeah, for long blacks, because if you're using hot water, then I think cafes should use— they either put two cups within themselves or they use a sleeve, like first sleeves. Um, but yeah, you don't see them much. It's very interesting.

Josh: What about with, um, with cold brews? I've, I've had one given to me where it's using a traditional cup, not one that would be plastic with a straw, and and by the end of my walk, the cup has gone soggy. And is, is that a common problem? Is there any work— like, are Eco Barista cups designed for holding ice?

Russell: Um, so paper cups are designed for like holding hot. I don't know, I don't really understand the science behind it, but when the cold— although I think that it must be something, I guess, as it gets cold, it sort of penetrates the wall quite differently. I'm not sure, um, but yeah, it's just not great. It always gets soggy.

Josh: So that's a known problem.

Russell: Yeah, that's another thing. That's another thing. I, I would always ask the cafe to rather give it to me in like a clear— there is clear cups out there that we don't produce them because we try and stick to just like, um, the traditional sort of products. But, um, there is clear cups out there that are made with that sort of compostable material, um, and that would be the the best option for that.

Tommy: I mean, when I was in Italy, it was all about standing at the bar drinking your little espresso, and they didn't really— there was no promotion of takeaway coffee. I mean, are you traveling? Have you travelled before? Have you left WA? Tell us about your travels.

Russell: Yeah, we did a little— it's frowned upon now, but we did a cruise. Um, yeah, you're right.

Josh: How old are you?

Tommy: 60?

Russell: Yeah, I was with my grandparents actually. It was a very interesting trip, um, a lot of bingo and a lot of just like reading hour.

Josh: Yeah. Do you get motion sick?

Russell: No, no, honestly, these cruises, if you're feeling anything like that's just not on—

Josh: happiness? No.

Russell: Yeah, you just get drunk the entire time. You may be feeling motion sickness, but it's not because of the boat, um, and Yeah, we did a bit of Italy and it was, it was, I was just loving the idea of going to these like cafes and just doing €1 for an espresso.

Tommy: Yes.

Russell: It's also a very different coffee to Australia. It's darker, very dark roast, more bitter. Whereas, you know, in Australia we've got some light, well, not we only do light roast, but we also do light roasts here. So it was very different, but I love it. I love experiencing all the different cultures' coffee. It's just so good.

Josh: And On pricing of coffee, do you get a sense of what— can you do the breakdown of what coffee actually costs cafes?

Tommy: We try to look for profit margin.

Josh: Yeah, I'm just trying to understand. It's like 11 cents for a cup, 6 cents for a, you know, for the lid, and let's call it, you know, I was going to round it up to 20 cents, but that's probably bad business. Yeah, do you have a sense of what a cup of coffee costs?

Russell: I don't have the exact number, but I will say this, which will give you a pretty clear indication of why things are changing. And I think it's great for people to know this, is that coffee used to be a thing that people were like, oh, huge margin on coffee, you know, sell coffee because it's so cheap to make. And that was the case because you were buying, you know, quickly roasted coffee from non-local roasters, um, just buying it in bulk. You're using just normal cow milk, you were using any old cup any old lid, all of that sort of stuff. And, and probably maybe not a barista that wasn't highly trained. And that was enough. That was really cheap to make.

Tommy: Your barista on barista prices, that's what they're charging hourly rates.

Russell: Yeah, like honestly, I reckon they— like, I'm sure they're on $23 an hour and plus, I don't know. So you've— once you start factoring out the wages, that's it. And then compostable cups, compostable lids, um, so you're already at like let's just call it 15 cents for just the cup and lid sustainably. Then you've got people saying, I really want Minor Figures oat milk or Oatly oat milk, which isn't cheap, or Milk Lab almond milk. You've got people that, I won't drink any other almond milk besides Milk Lab. Great, that's great for Milk Lab, but it's very expensive. And then you've got, you know, ah, you should really use a local roaster, you know, you should be supporting local. Okay, cool. So they're, you know, paying rent for a small warehouse to, to roast, so their prices might be quite high as well. So all of these things are adding up. And then again, like I said, the wages of a barista— you have to ask yourself how many coffees they need to sell an hour to sort of just cover costs. So it's not really like that. And then in traditionally in businesses, if your costs go up, that's fine, you just keep the same margin. But unfortunately, um, cafes don't have the luxury of saying, okay, we'll just charge $5 for $3.50 for coffee, you won't have anyone come through the door because down the road will be $4.50 and then you've lost out. Um, so they can't move that up with their costs. So their costs will go up and their prices will stay steady, so your margin will just get less and less. So it's not what it used to be, essentially. Um, so that's why food is something that cafes will always sort of offer on top of coffee, um, so that they can make some margin there as well.

Josh: You mentioned that Milk Lab Milk Lab are in McDonald's, like McCafé now. How much of what you do are you thinking about, say, the bigger players? Like if you could get like a McCafé or say like the 7-Eleven or things like that, is that on your radar?

Russell: It is. I've always thought about it because it just, you know, it sounds great to be working with such a big company. Even I always thought about like, do you have Dome in Melbourne?

Josh: No, what's Dome?

Russell: Okay, it's like— oh, I don't want to rip it off. It's like a— it's like an old franchise in WA. I don't know if it was like a coffee club. Yeah, but like older generation, more of a muffin break meets coffee club. Yeah, older. They're renowned— they're renowned for crap coffee, but like old people love it. Um, I feel so bad if I'm offending anyone, but I haven't had good experiences. Is there, I'll just say that. And yeah, I've always thought, you know, it'd be awesome if they gave us just the, like, just the opportunity to work with them and sort of rebrand them. And because they could be doing so, they could be doing so much better. But I thought it'd be, I think for franchises specifically, I think because they're ordering such a large volume across the branches, they can probably just speak to the suppliers themselves. They won't know too much about the industry, but it's enough for them to get by. But yeah, I would love the opportunity to work with a big company. I think it's really important that these big companies adapt and they work. And if there's people like, you know, you and me that are essentially their, you know, the purchase power, it's up to them to sort of stay in touch with us and provide products. Like you said, like McDonald's using Milk Lab, awesome. You know, my partner, she will walk past a cafe and before I've even been allowed to like make an order, she'll be like scouting for the Milk Lab.

Josh: My girlfriend Bree does it as well, and she was spewing the other day where a cafe was— had Milk Lab containers out in the front, but that was only for sale. They were using some other shit. Yeah, but that's pretty dodgy.

Tommy: Do you think that— I mean, it's so—

Russell: it's interesting.

Tommy: Do you think there's— it really says something about, like, do you think you can categorise a human based on their milk preference or their coffee order? 'Cause it does get funny, like you and Bree, and I can imagine, you know, there's a type that really get obsessed about it. I agree, I think it's better milk, superior, but I definitely don't have that buy-in like that. I'm like, whatever, give me some cow's milk. But then I'm probably a certain type that has no standards.

Josh: Well, is WA the same? Like, is WA the same in this way? I went to like, last time I'm gonna mention a place, but Auckland, went to Auckland and I asked them, if they had Milk Lab, and this was going back for like 3 years ago, and we created a scene very quickly that I didn't need. But is it like, is there anything like, are there coffee snobs in WA?

Russell: Yeah, big time. I think they're everywhere in Australia, which is good. My favourite is when people say to me, Russ, you've got to try out this new cafe. Amazing. And then I'm like, okay. And then like I go there and it's like, it's all right. And then I know, I find out later on that they drink, um, a weak almond latte. So don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with that order, but don't recommend cafes.

Josh: Absolutely. Don't recommend how well they steam milk, which I'm all for.

Russell: It's just like, yeah, really? You really haven't helped me there at all.

Josh: Um, but yeah.

Russell: There's definitely— maybe I'm a bit of a snob, mate. Just saying that, I'm having a realisation that maybe I am. But, um, you gotta be. It's good. It keeps— this COVID thing actually created a hell of a detox in the community in the sense that people who knew coffee, um, did well because they had to adapt and they had to adapt well. And the ones out there that just sort of said, 'I want to own a cafe, you know, it'll be simple,' and they were getting by just because they were conveniently placed in the city or wherever they were, they struggled, um, because they didn't know how to adapt and whilst keeping, you know, heroing their coffee. So, you know, I think it's good to have snobs.

Josh: I think Crystal Andrews is in the comments saying you are literally talking to WA's biggest coffee snob. I mean, what do you think about, um, big coffees? So, uh, Tommy's, Tommy's criticism of me is that I'll get a, a large A strong almond flat white.

Tommy: But I've even seen you just get a large almond latte.

Russell: Yeah.

Tommy: And I'm just like, you've just got hot milk. And why, okay.

Josh: And so what's the, from a sizing perspective, we were talking about the ounces and all that sort of thing. The Macca's large is obnoxious. We tried it the other day and it was like huge.

Tommy: Don't say we tried it, mate.

Josh: Did you not have one? No, I had a small.

Russell: You were the only one who had the large.

Josh: But Tommy did ask for a strong 3/4.

Russell: Yeah.

Josh: And it came as just a strong 3/4. Strong lines.

Tommy: They didn't understand, which I was happy. That's fine.

Josh: And so, um, yeah, sizing, like, how much thought has gone into the different sizes that you've picked?

Russell: Yeah, so 16 ounce is one of those. So 16 ounces is probably the size you had. Maybe Macca's does a bit larger. Yeah, yeah, it's big. It's— look, I don't, I don't want to judge. I'm struggling now to crystallize. Watching my words, and she's not one to argue with, as you know. So yeah, sure. Look, my mum drinks a 16-ounce and I try not to look, but it's just, it's a lot, it's a lot of milk. And you just sort of, you hope that the baristas are putting the same, like, more coffee so the ratio stays the same. So that's fine if the ratio stays the same. If it doesn't, then like, obviously, maybe you don't love the flavour of coffee, or maybe it's time to just try and go a little a little bit less milk and start to enjoy.

Josh: Milkshake.

Russell: I just think, yeah, essentially having a gourmet dare or a gourmet choc chill.

Tommy: That's exactly what I think.

Russell: Yeah. But like truck drivers I know love 16-ounce, this is really general, but like people who drive a lot essentially or in a car a lot will order a 16-ounce long black. And that I think is completely fine in the sense that, you know, they don't have the luxury of getting out or getting off every now and then. So they just want something that's gonna last a long time and it'll stay hot 'cause it's hot water.

Josh: Long black and snow dose.

Russell: It keeps going.

Tommy: It's a truckie combo.

Josh: Or you have the 7-Eleven do like their tradie special.

Tommy: Do they?

Josh: Yeah. Well, I'd see them just like sausage roll. I don't know. Do they call it a tradie special or have I just?

Russell: I reckon you've made that up.

Josh: They definitely push for tradie. Like there's definitely, like I wish of a time where I'm on a sort of a work site at sort of 10 AM with smoko and just having a, you know, what's an easy stereotype to play into. Do they call it any tradie specials? No. What do they call it? Daily specials? No, I mean, no. I'm sure you're just doing a shit job at getting this.

Russell: I'm literally on their special offers right now.

Josh: And what are they saying?

Russell: Fave sweet treats.

Josh: Okay. All right.

Tommy: No, I've seen them. Caltex do some something. What I love is all the service stations becoming primo. Slightly off topic, but like, I think it's Caltex, they had significantly less margins or less profits in their petrol sales and they're going down an avenue of creating luxury. Like there's David Jones now attached to some of these service stations in Melbourne. It's pretty fancy.

Josh: Food? You're not like trying on clothes?

Tommy: No, no, sorry, it's David Jones. So David Jones have a food court.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: Space. It's, yeah, it's seriously impressive. I mean, businesses can't just all be about the bottom line nowadays. It's too much social pressure, too much to hold on your conscience.

Josh: I mean, Russ, how much have you developed your thinking? You know, obviously starting something that was specifically centred around paper cups to where you are now, how much have you learned, not just in your specific niche, but in sort of the broader consumption and relating to the environment?

Russell: A lot, so much. And I was never really, um, like book smart in the sense that like I never really wanted to study, even at school, it wasn't for me. But I guess this has sort of been like a real-life sort of MBA for me. I've just sort of had to learn from my mistakes, which I think has just been really, really great. Um, I've made so many fuck-ups, but I've never made twice. Sorry for swearing.

Tommy: You fucked up.

Russell: It's just, it's so— you just have to adapt. You have to learn, you know, shit situations happen and you can either just let them, you know, beat you up or you can work out, okay, what can I do next time to not let that happen again? And I think, I think that's— I, when you were talking about that, the the Osher Gunsberg thing, I just got really like passionate and like angry about it because I just felt like the suppressive nature of that really angered me in the sense that like I know firsthand how many times— like I was in no position to get into this industry. I knew nothing about it. I knew nothing about the advertising essentially either about cups, but I just did it. And I'm not saying things are great right now, but I came out on top in the in the sense that I learned so much and I'm really excited about where things are going because I made those stuff up. And I just think I encourage everyone just to do it, just actually do it and then learn. You know, it may not go to plan, but you'll definitely learn something from it. It may not be money, you may not make huge profit from it, you may make a huge loss, but I guarantee you'll learn something from it and that will be like invaluable.

Josh: What have you learned about sales as a creative guy moving into more sort of the business realm?

Russell: Yeah, that was probably a huge hurdle. I, because personally I hated salesmen before this, I hated it. Every aspect of it, I just thought I never want to be like that one day, but I had to be, I had to learn to cold email, which was disgusting. I hated the idea of cold emails. I loved emailing people that had reached out to me, 'cause I felt like they were looking for a product and I didn't feel like just a random salesman. You know, just, I just felt like when they were contacting me, that was great. But for me to go out cold and for us to be sustainable and to have, you know, enough money to carry on and do this next month, I had to actually go out and acquire new business. And it's extreme, like, and also walking in, I occasionally had to walk into cafes without a meeting because they weren't responding to emails.

Josh: And I won't even go into a cafe to order my own coffee. So the idea of an ask is outrageous.

Russell: Yeah, I heard in that last part, I heard about your social anxiety. Yeah, look, look, it's, I have very similar, very, very similar social anxiety about that stuff. I hated it. One thing I always hated was going to shopping centres when people used to set up a desk right in front of like, say you wanted to go to Woolies or Coles and there was like a charity there that was like, or paintball and they would grab you and be like, "Here's your paintball." Ah, paintball, ugh. There's times when I actually emailed like the Westfield and just be like, this is not on. I feel like my freedom's been breached. Like, I just wanted to go and get some bananas and eggs and now I'm not coming back.

Josh: Like, well, the paintball— I'm off to paintball. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, unlimited bullets though. Yeah, 3 bruises. Yeah, yeah. And so how do you, how do you get over that when, when you have to do it to be able to make an income?

Russell: You just gotta do it. You just gotta walk in there and do it. And it sucks. The first one really, really sucks.

Josh: Do you get hot? What sort of the telltale signs for you that you're panicking?

Russell: The forehead sweats, the hand sweats, they start. And I mumble my words when I'm not confident about them.

Josh: Wanna buy some cups?

Russell: Sometimes I'll be like, excuse me?

Josh: Wanna buy some cups?

Russell: Sometimes one of my worst things, 'cause I always worry about what people think. Like I always worry if I'm gonna offend them. So I just don't like saying much, but my worst is like, you sort of have to speak to a manager, right? It sounds really wrong, but you're wasting your time with just like a front of house staff because they haven't got, they're not gonna, they're definitely not gonna pass the message on. They're gonna, as soon as you walk away, they're gonna be distracted. You sort of need to speak to their manager. So to make the assumption that they're not their manager is hugely offensive.

Josh: Right?

Tommy: Yeah.

Russell: So the amount of times I'm called out and say like, can I please speak to your manager? Or can I speak to the manager? Speaking? I'm the manager. Yeah, yeah, you're fucked. You might as well just walk out like, never mind, I just wanted to know where the toilets were. Like, just get out because you've already made an assumption that they, they're not of superior, like, you know.

Josh: And that's— and so what are you saying now? You're the manager? Like, it's just a bit of a question, manager.

Russell: Hey guys, I'd love to talk to someone about your, you know, your packaging. And then you sort of like they either say, "Yeah, that's me," or, "Let me pass you on to Mary, she's just out for lunch," or whatever, you know? That's better, but I had to make that mistake a few times.

Josh: How did you learn? Yeah, was it literally just seeing their reaction when you said it?

Russell: Yep. Just, I love just, I probably just look at someone probably maybe too intensely when I talk to them because I'm always trying to gauge if they're happy or sad. Yeah, eventually I got it. Pretty quickly that they're like, I shouldn't have said that, or that was the wrong way of doing it. And then try again another time. But how many, just unfortunately, yeah.

Tommy: How many coffees did you buy just because you fucked it? You're just like, oh, in that case I'll just have a coffee, thanks.

Russell: So many. I, um, yeah, there was, there was a time when I was doing like a sales day and I was going place to place and it's, it's love. There's perks in the job that, you know, when you do have a meeting they say, hey Russ, can I make you a coffee? Or, or you, you don't, to get your foot in the door, they're quiet, you buy a coffee and then you go to them and say, hey guys, just wondering where do you get your cups from? That's really good. But yeah, like you said, you drink a lot of coffee. And I was driving home one time and I really should— this is not probably not podcast suitable. We're here now. And I, my house is quite far away from my parents' house and I was close to my parents' house.

Josh: If you shit yourself, this is the best story.

Russell: I didn't, I didn't, but I came close. But I literally called my mum I was like, hey Siri, like, call Mum. Hey, hey my love, how are you? I'm like, Mum, don't talk to me, just unlock the doors. Just don't ask me about my day. I'm like, this is gonna be really rude, but I need space.

Josh: Like, can you just go? I need space, I need water, I need cold cloths.

Russell: Give me plastic bags, I don't give a shit.

Josh: Exactly, I need a shovel and And so get the compost bin. Yeah, exactly. Can human shit be used in compost or no?

Russell: I wish I hadn't said that because I have no idea.

Josh: Yeah, I'm sure, surely not.

Russell: Surely not. I don't think so. It's got, it's like dog shit. You can't use dog shit in your compost.

Tommy: Okay, if we can't use dogs, there you go.

Josh: Uh-huh, we're superior. And so on the like going into cafes, and then to, what do you call it, cold emails. So the cold email, you're not having to see anyone face to face. Any tips? I guess it's a lower level, but any tips to try and actually get a response?

Russell: Personalization is probably key. People can smell generic emails from a mile away. And don't get me wrong, I've made the mistake where I've copied and pasted and left the wrong person's name or company in the body.

Josh: Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

Russell: Done it, imagine.

Josh: Or just CC everyone.

Russell: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's good with CCing all of your customers and now everyone knows who you're working with instead of BCCing them.

Tommy: Done that.

Russell: Yeah, that's good personalization. I always, trying to know the area and saying like, I've been to have a coffee, I've seen you, you know, you're doing this coffee now or you're working with this roaster, that's great. You know, I love that you're doing, you know, this sustainable option, like you're giving out coffee grounds to your customers. Doing a bit of research essentially, doing a bit of due diligence, you know, 5 or 10 minutes before you send the email. I think that always goes a long, long way because they just feel like, okay, this person actually cares about my brand. It's not like, hey, can I help you with your digital marketing? You know, these are the people we've worked with, bye. And then that's all you say. You really need to get specific with what you wanna do, what sort of value you can add. And then, you know, another thing that I had trouble with was follow-up emails if they hadn't responded because, Sometimes I would email after they haven't responded and then I'll do a follow-up email and they're like, oh hey, sorry about this, yeah, can we meet up? And everything goes smoothly from that point on. But then part of me, for a while, I never used to do that because I just thought, fuck, that's so annoying. Like, if I get an email from someone and then I don't respond and they email me again, like, what are you doing? Like, you should have received that message. But at the same time, it's what, like, it's worked in the past. So what do you do? So I guess I try and like, if I'm doing a touch base email, try and make sure that that email has value. If it means like, okay, let me talk about new products we've added, maybe those— that first initial email didn't like, you know, wasn't appealing to you. Maybe this email will be because we're now working with, you know, this recycling company or something like that. Maybe that will sort of create that sort of, um, conversation.

Josh: Are you using like a CRM like, or some way of managing it all?

Russell: As of now, no, but I have I did toy around with HubSpot, which I thought was really great. That was—

Josh: Everyone seems to have a crack at that. Like we all like, ah, we're gonna create the pipeline, we're gonna do all that, but it sort of falls off.

Tommy: Because there's a lot of effort that needs to, like they're huge.

Josh: We have to invest in just spending the time in it. And so where did you fall off with it?

Russell: I used HubSpot and I still think I do for forms, So that, it's really good for capturing information, and it's free in that sense. Pipelines only worked really well if you wanted to pay for it, and it's quite expensive, HubSpot. So I think HubSpot is only really justifiable if you've got quite a big company and you've got the budget for that. But then now it's just like a shared, like on Slack we've just got an Excel, you know, we've got an Excel spreadsheet, and then just a box that sort of has the details, where things were left off, the date. And who was sort of the lead person for that. And then it just sort of makes sure that we don't contact the same person twice and we just know where things are at. It's up to us that once we send an email that we update the shared spreadsheet. But there are other options. I think Streakk, another CRM, which is quite good. I don't know.

Tommy: There's so many. Airtable, Monday.

Josh: And so how many, how many people that you speak to are price sensitive or what are some of the other things they care about?

Russell: I think it always a little bit comes down to dollars and cents, um, but it's the— I feel it's really, it's probably maybe too much of a generalization, but the younger audience seem to just prioritise sustainability, and then it's like a matter of, okay, once we've got the most sustainable option, then we can work out how we can make things more feasible and lower the costs once we've got that side of thing done, because we know how important that is to people. Whereas older generations, probably dollar sense is probably the the initial conversation you have, and it's very focused around that. But I've also learned just a valuable lesson. We work in WA. One of the first roasters I started working with was Margaret River Roasting. And they just taught me that sometimes when you've just got a joint synergy and you've got a joint ethos, like, you know, a similar ethos, sorry, the dollar and cents conversation sort of just goes out the window. And it's sort of like, okay, transparently, what is something that we can both do for each other that we can have a continued strong relationship. And that's awesome. That is a really, really great feeling because you don't feel guilty that you're charging too much, and you know that you're giving them a product that they actually need to, you know, continue their business. And when I had that sort of feeling, I was like, shit, like, this is, this is really cool. Maybe I can try and find lots of businesses like this where it's just sort of like transparent, like, okay guys, sorry, the US dollar's gone up, we have to, you know, 'in order for us to keep that same margin, not because we want to make more profit, we're not, we need to up our prices. And you know, you may need to translate that to your customers. That's just the way it is.' And just keeping things very open, I think has worked really well. But in saying that, you know, there are suppliers out there that will scream terms like biodegradable, recyclable, compostable when they're not. And there's nothing you can do about that. That it's not being policed. It's not, you know what I mean? Like, it's their word over yours and they'll land that business and they'll sell things cheaper because it's not, you're not comparing apples with apples or whatever they're saying is, and you've lost out on that business just because they weren't honest and you were. And, and you know, sometimes nice guys finish last, but I've had to learn, you know, a few bitter things out there.

Tommy: But well, yeah, I mean, belief in your product as well. If you're just, it's not even a question on your mind, helps with the process.

Josh: How much are you thinking about other, how much do you think about other products outside of cups?

Russell: Well, we do coffee bags as well. That's another big avenue. So coffee bags, essentially, when you're getting roasters delivering coffee to cafes, they have to do it in kilo bags and in large quantities. So that's— they need to find a sustainable way of transporting the coffee while keeping it fresh. So we sort of help roasters in that sense. But also, during— due to COVID, home brewing became extremely popular. So people buying coffee from their local roasters in little 250 gramme bags like these. We do these bags for sample coffee. And yeah, we had to sort of come up with a product there that was, you know, sustainable as well. And that's probably an avenue that is going to get bigger and bigger now because home brewing is becoming very popular and selling coffee regionally. Retail. People are now like, instead of using their Nespresso machine, they're getting like a really nice, um, yeah, like an espresso machine or a Moccamaster to do filter coffee. And you know, you can, you can achieve really good high-quality cafe, um, coffee at home, um, by using local roasters.

Tommy: Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, what, what's the cost of a cup of coffee in Perth at the moment?

Russell: Like if my mum's wearing it, like $5.50 to $6 because she's doing all the works on it. You know, extra hot, this milk, that, all of that.

Josh: Squirt of caramel.

Tommy: I don't know. Cleaning fee for your bullshit.

Josh: Cleaning the toilet after a big day of sales.

Russell: Oh, she's gonna kill me. So $4.50 to $5.50 I would say is probably the, the price range.

Josh: Most you've paid for a coffee?

Russell: Oh, I get cold brew quite a lot and I find that fascinating that it's expensive because it's very easy to make. It's dumping coffee grounds into water and leaving it there for 24 hours and that's it. And it's about $6, $6.50 sometimes, which is a bit scary.

Tommy: I'm thirsty for a coffee right now, Russ.

Josh: Would you get me one, Tom?

Tommy: I'll go get some.

Josh: Okay, thank you.

Tommy: I will.

Josh: Uh, Russ, when are you in Melbourne next?

Russell: Um, well, I was meant to be there like now. I was meant to be there for, um, the Coffee Expedition. In Coffee Expedition— why can I not say exhibition? Exhibition.

Josh: No, I like the idea of an expedition though.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I'm going on one in about 5 minutes.

Josh: And so what's that, just like a bunch of, um, coffee people? Just—

Russell: yeah, all, all the roasters, all the like, uh, coffee equipment Um, so roasters, coffee equipment, packaging, everyone coffee just sort of meets up in Melbourne and sort of discusses, you know, what's, what's on the forefront of the industry. Um, and it's— it would have been my first one, which is really upsetting, so I got cancelled because of COVID But, um, they're not doing anything digital, I don't think so.

Tommy: Not the same, can't sip coffee.

Josh: Yeah, that's true, in person.

Russell: And, um, look, the moment the borders open, I'm there for sure.

Josh: And, uh, what sort of coffee do you make at home?

Russell: I, uh, I use a Moccamaster, so it's like a filter coffee. It's, um, it's really very easy to do. Yeah, we have a Moccamaster. Yeah, yeah, I'm a huge, huge fan of them.

Josh: And so when you get a Moccamaster, do you need to get specific grounds? So do it— when I go to a, a cafe and I like it, or a roaster, what sort of grinding do they need to do? Or should— or do you ground— do you get the beans and then grind it at home?

Russell: I grind them at home, but if you—

Josh: What do you use? Do you have like an electrical, like do you have one that plugs into the wall?

Russell: Yeah, I've got a Breville Smart Grinder. I also highly recommend that. Um, if you go on OzBargains, yeah, they always surface for, I think like $180, but they're like a conical burr grinder. So they are like, they use essentially the grinders, the quality of the grinders is very similar to the industrial ones. So the ones that cafes use. And you get a very consistent grind. Easy to clean and very, very easy to clean. Um, I probably like— I would do it once every 6 months if you don't even need to, but if you can, yeah, yeah, very, very good. I always put the amount of dosage, so I weigh out say 60 grammes of coffee, I put it through the grinder, and then once it's all passed, I know, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like I leave coffee in there, so they don't— it's not too dirty.

Josh: Yeah, I feel like there's always hacks around how much coffee you put in the Moka Master. I have to— every single time I have to do it, I need to Google it because I forget. What is your go-to? Like, do you— I, I've worked out how to make big batches, but I'm not good at smaller batches, so I end up always making like a litre of coffee every single time and then drinking it and then drinking it and then having a panic attack at the office. But what's your, um, yeah, what's your go-to in regards to ratios?

Russell: I do a 1:16. I sort of recommend that, but like sometimes your roasters will tell you a different ratio based on 15, but a 1:16 is a pretty good universal ratio.

Josh: And how many grammes of coffee is that?

Russell: So that is 1 gramme of coffee to 16 millilitres of water. So, um, for every gramme of coffee you do 16 mils of water. So say you've got 30 grammes of coffee, you just say, okay Google, what's 30 times 16? And then she tells you how many mils to put in.

Josh: Oh, that's a good idea.

Russell: And that's how I do it every morning. I work out how much coffee I've got and then I'm like screaming, okay Google.

Josh: So one Did you say 1:6? So it's 1 to 16, is that the ratio?

Russell: Yeah, that's the ratio. Okay, so yeah, so 100— so 100 coffee.

Josh: See, I already fucked it because I was gonna say 100ml. I need 490ml of water, 1,600 grams.

Russell: So 100 divided by 16. If you want to— if you've got 100ml of water, you can divide by 16, but if you've got coffee first, you can times by 16. Depends which way you want to go. Um, I do for a full batch of Moccamaster, I do 6 60 grams.

Josh: And how long do you keep it in the actual, uh, the funnel bit before you click it? And do you click it open all the way or do you go half?

Russell: You throw me there. I just keep it open from the get-go. I've never closed it. I thought the closing thing— I use the closing thing just for like when I take it away to clean it and throw it away so it doesn't drip. I close it then.

Josh: No, so from the start, really? Okay, here's something. So I think that you— I don't know, it's not going to say this is how you I'm meant to do it, but no, the way that—

Russell: I'm sure there's multiple ways.

Josh: Yeah, so the way that I do it is you basically have the funnel thing that the water goes into, keep that closed, and then you need to agitate. Do you have an agitation stick? Yeah, great. So yeah, you get your wooden stick and you need to agitate it, and then once it gets to like 3/4 of the funnel, you can then open it up and then you get like a stronger brew. Um, okay, there you go. I learned that in Munich.

Tommy: Did you actually—

Josh: I didn't, I didn't learn that in Munich. Now the internet at home. Um, thanks for coming on the show, Russ. That was fun.

Russell: I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you, guys.

Josh: And so if people want to, um, so I guess cafe owners, things like that, but is there any way that consumers do you think can get smarter on all of this sort of stuff?

Russell: Um, I think Yes, just doing your research. And just, I guess everyone is trying to do their research, but not, not to get angry and, and just sort of learn things casually and calmly is really good. And not maybe to bite cafe and roasters' faces off when, when you think that it's one way and it's— they're doing something another. You've got to be— you've got to realise that, you know, cafes and roasters are obviously trying to do their best, um, and, you know, everyone's learning from their mistakes. And I think it's just important that everyone just starts looking to see where they can improve the industry in certain areas. And if we all have that sort of mindset, we're going to move in a really positive direction. Um, so yep, bring your keep cup, you know, keep it clean for your, for your cafes. Um, and, and just, yeah, try and do as much research as you can about the industry. Um, but yeah, try and drop off the hate. Stop the hate.

Josh: Yeah, just don't get angry about your coffee.

Tommy: All right, thank you, Ruff. Thanks for coming on the show, dude.

Josh: It's a daily talk show. I'll see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you guys.