Michelle Andrews & Zara McDonald On Anxiety & Perception

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 727.

Tommy: Back on the show, Michelle Andrews, Dale McDonald. Well done.

Michelle: That is a lot of episodes, boys.

Zara: So many episodes.

Tommy: How are we hanging in, uh, in iso? I see, um, visually, uh, Michelle, did I see you giving away a bed? 'Cause I'm pretty sure I can see some kind of a bed. Were you giving away a bed on Facebook?

Michelle: I wasn't giving away a bed. I was recommending a bed because this week Mitch and I are doing a bed.

Zara: But you also gave one away on Facebook. Yeah, that's it.

Michelle: Oh wait, fuck.

Josh: No, nobody wanted it. Facebook Marketplace? Are you literally just talking about like buy, swap, sell? Is this what's going on?

Michelle: No, I was offering a bed.

Zara: This is the world's worst start to any episode.

Michelle: I was offering a bed. I can't believe I really did forget that. I was offering it for free.

Tommy: To be honest, I just got you on to ask, can I have your, your bed frame that you were giving away? Obviously it's not available. So, uh, what do you reckon?

Michelle: Like it? I mean, we were going to take it to the tip because we were like, I don't know if we want to ask for money for this. I feel bad. I don't know if this is just me. I feel bad asking for money for things that I'm not going to use anyway and I don't need. Like, if I'm going to give it away, like when we moved out of our apartment in Jan or Feb, we gave away everything. We didn't want money for the couch or for the fridge or for anything. I just feel awkward asking for money when I don't need it and I don't need the thing. I just want it to be gone. Is that just me?

Josh: No, I agree.

Zara: No, well, it's more benefit to you if it's gone. So, isn't the value in getting it gone rather than the money?

Michelle: Yeah, totally. And it's like, I don't need this bed frame. I don't want money for it. I just want it to be out of my life and out of this spare bedroom. You can clearly see it in the background.

Tommy: Well, I see the appeal of getting it gone quicker. So, free is the better option. Which you can— there's so many things, but it looks like nobody even wanted it for free. So I'm a bit suspicious about your whole bed frame anyway.

Zara: So hot bed frame.

Michelle: It is, um, yeah, look, it is pretty dodgy. I'm like keen to get rid of it. I'm pretty sure we're going to put it on Airtasker. So not just giving it away for free, we're going to pay someone to get rid of it for us.

Josh: It's crazy, the whole, the tip thing. But then you have the opposite stuff, which is all the gronks. That leave stuff outside the Salvos, like just chucking shit. Like, what are they gonna do with all that?

Michelle: Yeah, and at the moment, like, we've got a, um, a Salvos up the road from us and they've got all these signs around the place saying we're not accepting donations. Like, clearly people aren't working there right now. The number of people dropping off garbage bags who probably are like giving themselves a pat on the back, I'm like, you're making more work for so many people. So like, we would take it to a charity shop if charity shops are still open, but They're not really. So someone please come take my bed.

Tommy: I was thinking yesterday about dropping stuff off because I did a t-shirt cull yesterday and I need to go and drop some off into one of the bins. I don't even know if you can at the moment, but I was thinking, have you girls ever seen, have you ever dropped something off and ever seen somebody with the thing that you've dropped off? Like, I want to know that person that's seen someone wearing their t-shirt. That is, you know, like imagine that. It's like, holy shit.

Zara: Most obscure and sort of unlikely.

Michelle: No.

Zara: What, like walking down the street seeing someone in my pink t-shirt?

Tommy: I reckon the closest thing will be, and it won't happen to you girls, your merchandise. I'm sure someone will see someone who's given away our merchandise. 'Cause they don't want it.

Zara: That's so true.

Michelle: I do sometimes see girls wearing, or women, sorry, seeing them wear the Shameless merch around Woolies and Coles in my area. And I feel bad for them 'cause it's almost like they feel embarrassed to wear it in front of me. I'm like, no, I love it. Like I feel embarrassed that you bought, yeah, I don't know. It's cute though, I love saying that.

Zara: But the other side to that is actually the concern that they don't know what they're wearing, like they've been given it or they've borrowed it from someone and like they don't know what they're wearing. So, I would just kind of ignore the situation just for feeling awkward.

Josh: Yeah, the— I mean, the admin stuff of selling shit. Zara, how are you with admin during ISO?

Zara: What kind of admin? I'm bad at admin generally. So, ISO is not good for anything. What kind of admin do you mean, specifically?

Josh: Well, just like, just general getting your life together. Like, I feel like I've got this long list. Like, I've gotten to the point of putting together the list of the things I'm going to do, but I reckon I'm going to run out of time before we all have to sort of get back to business as usual.

Zara: I don't think I've done one good thing for my life since isolation started in terms of admin. Like, I don't think I've done anything. I was brushing my teeth today and I thought, I really, it's time to go to the dentist. But do you think I'm going to go in the next couple of months?

Josh: No, absolutely not. I thought that was like the first time you'd brushed your teeth in a while.

Zara: I'm actually a big teeth brusher. I don't mind the old brushing of teeth.

Josh: How many times a day?

Zara: Well, now actually interesting, now that I'm working from home, I find myself doing it every couple of hours because it gives me a little reboot.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: You brush your teeth every couple of hours?

Tommy: Isn't that a no-no?

Michelle: Is that not a thing? That would be bad for your gums, wouldn't it?

Zara: No, you just do it gently. You just do it gently. Oh God, this is so creepy.

Josh: Do you do it manually or do you have like an electronic sort of setup?

Zara: Just, I've got a soft, a soft toothbrush. It is the softest kind. I just give it a little spray. I just want a little like refresher.

Tommy: No, I know what you mean. It's if you're feeling like a bit dehydrated or something, you can sort of give your mouth that sort of—

Josh: Just have a glass of water.

Tommy: Have you guys heard of like—

Michelle: Breath mints. You've heard of like Eclipse mints, right?

Zara: They don't do the same thing.

Josh: I mean, Seb's, let's bring in Seb's for the first time. You've got a water floss machine. How often are you using that?

Tommy: Looks like a lot.

Mason: Oh, look, I probably haven't used it in maybe 3 months.

Josh: Okay.

Mason: So, I haven't actually, I mean, I've flossed more than I've used the actual water flosser, but it is great. Like it's, I would recommend it.

Josh: Can you really recommend something if you're not using it?

Mason: Maybe. It's great. It's fun to use. That's the best part about it. Like just the water, it's real high pressure.

Josh: It's great.

Tommy: Okay. More fun than the rest. I think we need to address the elephant in the room. Zara and Michelle, no, not you. You're not, that's wrong to label it after that. I mean, Mr. 97, his confidence, his newfound confidence is the elephant and it's as big as a bloody elephant.

Zara: Look at the smile.

Tommy: Haircut. Look at the pep in his step. If you can't see him walking, but you should see him, it's very peppy.

Michelle: A bit of swagger.

Tommy: Yeah, girls, um, do you know that he now has a girlfriend?

Michelle: Can you explain this to me, Ninety-Six? How did this come about? And is it because of us? I mean, I feel like we were responsible for like the first couple of people you ever dated. What happened since then?

Mason: This is— yeah, this is 100% because of you. One of our listeners, she found us through the Shameless Dating thing. And we started messaging and talking and then yeah, now we're dating and she's awesome.

Michelle: How long have you been dating for?

Mason: I would be just over a month, I reckon. 30 days, yeah, 31 days.

Michelle: We need to do like a daily talk show and Shameless like event and you two can just be sitting on thrones in the middle of the stage. Like not speaking or anything, just there as like our props. Because we brought you guys together.

Zara: That's quite a long burn for us, Mish, in terms of— that's a long, slow burn.

Michelle: Over a year since we tried to find you a date, 97s, and look at us.

Tommy: And so it wasn't you, it was all him. He was the problem in this whole thing. It could have happened much quicker. He had a lot of options thanks to you two. The—

Zara: I—

Josh: so, so, Sebs has never met his girlfriend in real life. She is based in Perth, and so this is, this is like the, the modern-day love if I've ever heard it.

Michelle: Oh my gosh, are you guys gonna plan to meet up?

Zara: How—

Michelle: what's gonna happen?

Mason: Yeah, yeah, well, as soon as everything sort of come— calms down and the restrictions are lifted. Yeah, absolutely. We, we— I mean, we want to drive over and do a road trip, but Oh, we'll see what happens.

Zara: This is like the ultimate isolation relationship anyway, because no one can kind of catch up. Yeah, so you might as well just form one interstate.

Michelle: I hate to pick a bone with you, Ninety Sevz, but a couple of weeks ago we literally did a call out for our Love Etc podcast. The final episode we did, which went up on Friday, was about pandemic love, and we wanted love storeys from the pandemic. I am personally— yeah, your lovely girlfriend did not reach out Considering we set you up.

Josh: Well, to be like, we had the Daily Talk Show exclusive on it.

Zara: Love storeys on the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: Yeah. Oh, here we go. We've got the exclusive banner, which we pull out for special occasions.

Tommy: Run the banner.

Zara: Why don't we get stuff this cool, Michelle?

Michelle: You know why?

Josh: Because we can't do shit with the property. You guys don't need the dumb shit. We just do it to bring the crowds, you know? You need the—

Tommy: The gimmicks. So Zara, you're not an admin gal.

Zara: No, I'm not.

Tommy: Michelle, you've been thrown a whole bunch of new admin based on having a dog, a pet, buying a child. How is the little pup?

Michelle: He is so good. We had a really scary incident on Saturday. Before I tell you, he's the best. Like, he's such an adorable puppy. He's so affectionate and like needy, which is he's just me in a nutshell, so it's perfect. And he's been so great to have in the midst of everything 'cause he keeps us so busy and our hands are full basically all the time with him. But on Saturday, I got him up in the morning. He wakes up at like 6:30 in the morning, which is also a new thing for me. And he was doing zoomies around the apartment and I had the door halfway open to outside to our little courtyard area. Just 'cause I put him out or whatever. He was doing zoomies and instead of running—

Josh: Is that Zoom calls for dogs? What's a zoomie?

Michelle: Do you not know what a zoomie is for a dog?

Josh: No, what's a zoomie?

Michelle: Okay, a zoomie is when, you'll know it when I tell you, I don't know, have you not had dogs as pets?

Josh: I had a cocker spaniel that I wish I looked after more. It was when I was young, but go on.

Michelle: All right, so when a dog has too much energy, particularly young dogs, when they have too much energy, they do zoomies. So they don't know how to expend energy. So this is normally when they wake up or when they go to sleep at night. They just start sprinting laps around your house or around your garden or whatever, like sprinting for no reason, just in circles, trying to get rid of excess energy. And so Benji was doing a zoomie where he was going full pelt around the backyard. And when he circled around to come back into the apartment through the open door, he missed the open door and went smack bang into the glass. So he gave himself a concussion.

Tommy: Oh no.

Michelle: It sounds funny now, but it was terrifying.

Josh: What does a concussion look like for a dog? Like, is he—

Michelle: Scary. Yeah, really scary. Where do you live?

Josh: I don't know. Tell us your name.

Michelle: Um, he, he was like very upset, like crying. This is not funny. When you see a crying— sorry, an 8-week-old puppy, it's distressing. Um, he was very upset, so he was kind of like sleeping the entire day. So we had to call the emergency vet. Um, and yeah, he's okay now. He was very, very sore and like feeling pretty sorry for himself all of Saturday and a bit of Sunday, but he's okay now. Maybe I should go get him for one of these shots so you can see him.

Josh: Yeah, definitely.

Tommy: That would be good. I just want to quickly— can you give me 5 things that he's done that is really, really annoying? And I don't want you to use the term dog, and I want to have people think that they could be talking about my son Bodhi, because I reckon they're probably pretty close.

Michelle: I don't know if I've got 5 for you because he is a dog, so his range isn't that high. Weeing on our bedroom floor at night is a big one.

Tommy: Done. Yeah, Bodhi's done that. Bodhi has done that.

Michelle: Hiding under the very back of the couch. So underneath the couch, but against the back wall. So to the point where we can't lean in and scoop him out. Like he's too deep in. He just hides under there. I don't think Bodhi would fit under your couch.

Tommy: Well, he's stuck.

Zara: Oh, what are you saying about Bodhi?

Tommy: No, his head is fat. No, once he did get stuck underneath something and I had to like, yank him out and he got stuck behind his cot. I walked in and he was lodged down there and he's like, ah, help. And so yeah, 2 for 2. Last one.

Josh: What else?

Michelle: My third one is he's figured out where his treats are. They're in like a little wicker basket where we keep all of his stuff. And so he climbs up on the treats basket and tries to pull it over.

Josh: This is Easter all over again.

Tommy: I caught Bodhi in the cupboard with a chair getting down the chocolate and he ate 5 big Easter eggs. It's exactly the same. It's no different.

Zara: It's beautiful stuff.

Josh: Zara, you mean you've never been a dog person? Is that— I know that you sort of like your— which I think is fine. I think that like, I remember when I told people, I'm like, I don't love dogs. You stop saying it in public because people really like take it as a judgement call that you're a psychopath or something. But what's your relationship with dogs nowadays?

Zara: Not much change. If I didn't have to get a dog for my whole life, I don't think I would. My brother, my younger brother has never had a pet in his life. So he's realised that I'm of an age now where I could get a dog and he sends me dog photos all day, every day thinking that I'm gonna be the one to get a dog and that he can just take it. And my boyfriend really wants a dog and thinks we're getting a dog before Christmas. I'm just not sure. Like I'm happy to indulge and say, sure, let's get this dog. But then I think about the reality of having a dog, the 6:30 wakeups, the training it, it being around all the time. All the time, having to look after it. And I, I just don't know if I've got it in me.

Michelle: I'm not gonna lie, Zara, I don't think you'd want a dog. I think you'd get one. I don't think I do. You know me, I adore dogs. I absolutely adore them. A puppy is so much work. Like, I think people really underestimate it. It's probably why so many puppies get returned after Christmas and like why there's all those awareness campaigns. They are so intense in the first couple of weeks that if you are not like— if you don't fully want that dog with all your heart, you're gonna fucking hate it.

Mason: Yeah.

Zara: I think they need to hire someone to train it.

Josh: No, no, definitely not. This is the whole thing. It's like my theory on the dog stuff is like you get a dog when you've sort of, you've got enough time that you want to feed something else and like deal with something else. But like the idea of then outsourcing it seems—

Michelle: You know what you need, Zara?

Zara: You need to adopt a dog. Unethical maybe too?

Michelle: You need to adopt a dog who's like maybe 2 years old and is already trained.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: I don't think you could get a new dog.

Michelle: As a non-dog lover, you don't have it in you to do the first month 'cause it's hard and we're home all the time. I can't imagine raising Benji and being at work 8 hours a day. I don't know how it would be possible. He'd destroy the house.

Zara: Yeah. Do you guys have dogs, Josh and Tommy?

Josh: TJ, you answer first.

Tommy: Well, we opted for the child over the dog.

Michelle: The classic.

Tommy: I had dogs growing up, but you can't take, genuinely say you had a dog. Oh, you did have one, but you can't— it's not like your experience. You raised Michelle.

Josh: Yeah, you—

Tommy: my dad did all the hard work. He, he took it for walks. I just got to chill, chill with him for 17 years in the backyard. And so I got the best bit of it. But, um, no, I would in the future. My mum, classic story, uh, we had a Dalmatian and mum got it when I was born, I think. Yeah, yeah, almost the same time. What a nightmare. 3 boys, a baby being me. Mum left the front door open hoping it would just go. She got to that point. She got to that point. And she is a beautiful, down-to-earth yogi meditator, but she'd had enough, you know. Everybody breaks and it broke. The dog broke it. Dog came back.

Michelle: My sister tried to raise a husky when she was heavily pregnant and that was interesting to watch as well. It's not easy.

Josh: Yeah, I just feel like things like travel and stuff, I think it's the extra cost in like, I remember driving past like somewhere in Port Melbourne and you hear like the dogs barking where like everyone's hanging, like the dogs are hanging out waiting for their owners. And I'm just like—

Tommy: Dog Daycare.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: South Melbourne.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't. Doesn't feel right.

Tommy: Well, I mean, it begs the question, uh, I guess, no, I was thinking in hindsight after having a child, how it's, it's not even selfish because I don't think you're just living your life right without that part of the responsibility or that taking up your, your time. What do you think, um, for the non-dog or parent owners? I can't remember thinking in that time, no one probably asked me back then, like all the time that you have, is it, is, is it a, is there a, can you even get to the selfishness thinking in that time? Like, not selfishness, like, what do you mean?

Josh: It's more for yourself, like it's about, well, it's almost, isn't there the thing of like, okay, if you, if you don't have, if you don't want to have kids, you're somehow like a selfish asshole, whereas like, well, that's what I'm saying.

Tommy: I'm not saying it's, it's what you are, but, but there is that now.

Josh: I get that narrative. But then isn't that also the narrative that allows a bunch of people who don't want to have kids or dogs to have kids and dogs? Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: Do you want kids, Josh?

Josh: Nah, nah. Bri and I decided pretty early, like we started dating when we were like 16, 17. And so we spoke about it then, we were like, ah, but it's interesting.

Zara: Really?

Josh: Yeah.

Zara: And that hasn't changed this entire time?

Josh: No, no.

Tommy: And so it's commendable. I literally— actually, my brother doesn't want kids, but you're the— you're my first friend that has said that. And it's, um, and I think probably when I first met you, it was like, huh, you know, you go through all those, come on, mate, you know, it might happen.

Michelle: That'll change.

Josh: We had a fight going to DFO. I remember when you said like, oh, you're too selfish to have a kid. It was the blow-up.

Tommy: Did I come up with that?

Michelle: Brutal, man.

Josh: Ouch.

Michelle: Do you get annoyed, Josh, when people Do you get annoyed when people insinuate that you don't know for yourself yet and that you're gonna change your mind?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I think that, but also being the pushback guy, I feel like anyone telling me to do anything, like it's like Bree and I, I'm not opposed to marriage at all. I wanna get married to Bree just so we have that, like not even for the wedding, I can't be fucked with people and working out. Like I did my first photo board for Bree's 30th. It's her 30th birthday today. And I was like, she's 30 today? Yeah, she's 30.

Zara: What a youthful looking angel.

Josh: I know, it's outrageous though. But yeah, so she's 30. And so I made the photo board and I was like, fuck, this reminds me of weddings because all of a sudden I took a photo for Instagram. I was like, oh fuck, I didn't consider at all who were in the photos. I just picked just good photos. And so I like the idea of marriage in regards to like being connected, but the rah-rah of the whole thing I'm not for. And so I think from a pushback perspective, when people say, oh, you need to do this or you need to do that, even if I had the thought in my head, I'm normally like, okay, reset. Like I need to push that, like I'm moving this around because I don't want to fucking do anything that society's telling me.

Zara: Do you know, it's embarrassing. Is it like, that's such a noble way to look at it? I'm not the rah-rah. I think I want the rah-rah.

Josh: You like the idea of the rah-rah?

Zara: I just want a big party. Like, that's all I want. And I like an excuse. And so I feel like people—

Josh: you don't give a fuck, you just need—

Zara: no, no, the person is important, but also so is the party. Like, having people— I think, I think this is why I've always liked birthdays, right? Not because I like attention. I kind of get a bit embarrassed if I'm at the centre of it. But the idea that people can't really say no to you, like, if you want to get people together and you're an extrovert, people can't really say no, they're busy, especially for a wedding. So you can't flake a wedding. So therefore you've got forcing everyone into the same space.

Josh: Oh, this is— it sounds horrendous.

Michelle: I, I don't really care for like a huge wedding, but I definitely want a wedding. Like, it's not the most important thing for me. Like, I think a lot more about marriage than I do about one day of my life. But I don't know, just being able to like look nice and be around my family and friends, like, that's—

Josh: you can do that on a Sunday, you know that. Like, you could. I mean, it's How often do you get everyone you love in one room?

Michelle: And like, I'd be certain that both of mine and Mitch's families, they wouldn't have that whole like, um, every second cousin has to be there or anything like that. Like, we'd have no pressure on ourselves as far as guest lists go. How often would you have everyone you love between you as a couple in one room? You would never have that. I actually don't think there's really any other occasion where everyone comes because it's a wedding. Everything else, birthday parties, people can flake.

Tommy: It is special, and but it is hard, hard work. Like, on the day, it's— I enjoy going to a party more than I enjoy hosting it. Oh my God, I love going to other kids' parties with my son. We had one at our house, absolute nightmare. There were so many children. It's, it's a kid's party. No, I mean, that's, that's, that's as relatable for me at the moment. That's, that's all the parties I've been going to in the last year. But no, I think it's— it does, like, bringing family together, it is. Hey, um, this reminded me, on the— so my wife's from Sydney, all the family are up there, and you're right, when would they ever fly down to Melbourne just to hang out with us all on the same weekend? It would never happen unless it's, you know, got something to do with a wedding or a divorce. Um, no, but Amy was pregnant at our wedding Which we don't recommend. Absolutely don't recommend.

Michelle: How pregnant? Are we talking 12 weeks? Are we talking 9 months?

Tommy: 6. 6 weeks and sick. 6 and sick. It was so annoying for her. We had started telling people, which is probably not the best idea, telling people early, and thankfully it all went our way. But Amy's auntie was on the plane and she heard two people— heard the people sitting behind her talking about how they're going to the wedding and that Amy, the bride, is pregnant. And Amy's auntie found out from sitting on the plane hearing a conversation behind her that Amy was pregnant.

Zara: What are the chances?

Michelle: Was she not showing very much? How was it not abundantly clear that she was pregnant at 6 months?

Tommy: Well, 6 weeks. Oh, this is like a little, a little pee. Not 6 months.

Michelle: I thought you said 6 months. I'm like, wow, she must be really freaking small when she was 6 months pregnant.

Tommy: No, it was just a little, a little pee in the, in the tummy, but she was, yeah, sick.

Michelle: So, wow, that is early. That's very early for people to know.

Tommy: Josh has muted himself, but he'll come back.

Michelle: I like Josh. While Josh is muted, I love your bookshelf. Oh, your bookcase is behind you, Josh. Very colorful, very artistic.

Mason: How is the colour coding as well?

Michelle: It's colour coded, but you know what? It's not meticulous. It looks like they were kind of just like put there casually.

Zara: It's not too try hard. Like it's not like I've crafted this bookshelf for the purpose of it being in my background. Although I feel the need to compliment your bookshelf now, Tommy, and what's behind you because you've got a nice setup. I've just got a couple of wardrobes.

Tommy: I will break it to you. That's a wallpaper. Behind Josh. It's a wallpaper. It's a green screen.

Zara: Is it?

Michelle: Pull out a book, Josh. I want to see. Not stopping me. I was about to ask, did we think that was a Bree job or a Josh job? And I was about to back Bree, but if it's a wallpaper, that's fine.

Tommy: No, it's not a wallpaper. I'm gonna say no, it's not. They're real books. And he does have a, uh, I was gonna say problem, but I guess if you're reading them and yeah, you being educated, it's far from a problem. Buying books.

Michelle: Does he read them all or does he accumulate them to look like he's well read?

Tommy: I mean, I'd love to answer for him.

Mason: That's a great question.

Zara: Oh, he's nodding. He's nodding. I think he's accumulating them to make himself look well read.

Michelle: Can you hear me?

Tommy: Bouchapilbenis is back.

Josh: This is the biggest technical clusterfuck that we've had so far. I think something happened.

Zara: We must be the bad omens.

Josh: No, no, you're fine. I think it's all good. YouTube still working? No, so no, I don't read the books, to answer your question. I don't have time for that. No, I like the idea of books. I love, like, I enjoy the aesthetic of books. I even love talking about that I'm going to read the book. I like to have the fireplace on, on the TV, put it on, put something comfy on, have the book there.

Mason: You've been doing that.

Michelle: So you're a fraud, basically.

Josh: Yeah, no, I'm not a fraud. I enjoy everything about the book, but my eyes get tired. So, I'm more of an audiobook guy.

Zara: That's an experience of books I've not yet heard. I love everything about the book except the words inside.

Josh: Well, no, there's something—

Michelle: You're all image and no substance, or just how it appears to be.

Josh: I know, I know. But no, there is something— I read an article that talked about the fact that you can become smarter by buying the book and not even reading it.

Michelle: I think I got that, I think it's the same that if you smell healthy food, this is good, I'm so gonna butcher this, you get some health benefits as well just by surrounding yourself with healthy produce, not particularly eating it.

Zara: Michelle, queen of medical misinformation on digital platforms.

Josh: This is what we're all about.

Tommy: Pro-science if I've ever heard it. Live in the flesh.

Michelle: Maybe I'll do a quick Google while I say that. I'm pretty sure that's correct.

Tommy: But, Sjavs can pull it up.

Zara: Josh, I'd love to hear the thought process behind this article. Who wrote it?

Josh: I don't know.

Zara: And what's the idea?

Josh: I didn't read it. I just read the headlines are. Sorry.

Michelle: His eyes get tired, didn't you hear?

Tommy: Have a bad habit and find the literature to back it up, whether that literature is BuzzFeed. I mean, it's still a backing up.

Josh: Yeah, have you found something?

Michelle: I have something. Health benefits of smelling strong-smelling foods. Research indicates that the aragonosulfur compounds in alliums may slow or prevent the formation of cancer in the colon, esophagus, lungs, mammary glands, and stomach.

Zara: Just from the smell of it.

Michelle: Wait, what's the source?

Josh: So, you don't need to read it.

Tommy: The source is Oregano. Oregano?

Zara: Oregano is the American pronunciation.

Josh: Yeah.

Michelle: Piedmont, health something.

Zara: I don't know, this sounds real.

Tommy: Yeah, it looks real.

Zara: It's very legit.

Michelle: It's a doctor's, um, particularly smell onions, guys. Raw onions prevent cancer.

Josh: I actually, um, I realised the other day because Bree and I have been doing a lot of like food delivery and like just, and just getting all of the, um, like we're doing Chin Chin tonight for Bree's birthday or whatever, but just do working our way through all the sort of fancy places on the weekends. But I realise that I'm not only doing that, but we got a lamp, so it's really dark in our apartment. And so, we've just got sort of like a single warm lamp to sort of create a better vibe. But I remember reading somewhere that if you have low amounts of lighting, you eat more. So, I feel like I've created this perfect bubble where I've got like no light. We're basically eating in the dark and just having like deliveries constantly.

Michelle: By candles.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. It's a bit of a nightmare.

Tommy: I mean, this is on the reading stuff. Zara, have you seen those blue light removing glasses? I've seen heaps of ads going around. I just feel like I've been crossed something like this.

Zara: I feel like you've been fucking my phone. I have been messaging Michelle this so much. I've been telling her that reading from a screen is giving me headaches and I'm getting blurry eyes and that my eyesight is going. My eyesight is not going. I'm just desperate for it to go so I can get glasses. And I feel like I feel like my solution is blue light glasses. Like, I don't even mind if they're a farce. I just want to look like a glass.

Josh: Yeah. Is this not too dissimilar? Like, wanting to wear glasses when you don't have a prescription, isn't that the same vein of me owning all these books and not reading them?

Michelle: Yes, exactly.

Zara: No, hold on. Mine's way more— I mean, there's vanity. The threat is vanity for sure. Isn't it a bit—

Josh: I almost feel like it's a case, you know, like people crack the shits because like hot actors were getting ugly roles. I feel like this is the equivalent where it's— you don't have permission to wear glasses, like unless you need them, Zara, you can't be increasing your look based on glasses.

Michelle: It's poor taste. We did do a few unofficial eyesight tests in the office. Zara was saying this for a long time. So, I was just getting like bits of paper with letters on them and going across the office and getting her to read them. And you got 100%. 100%, my friend. I don't think you have an eyesight problem.

Zara: We have very productive days in the office if you can't tell. I was also sitting on like a spec— I think it's Specsavers website and they do like virtual eye try-ons. Josh, have you tried these? And what happens is you can pick the glasses and they take a photo of your face and you just try on all these glasses virtually. And I was like picking the ones that I wanted. I just need worse eyesight now.

Michelle: You just need a hobby.

Josh: You know, glasses right now, I think it's such a good— Like fashion accessory.

Zara: Do you think it gives you depth?

Josh: As in eyesight-wise or personality-wise?

Zara: No, image-wise, personal brand-wise.

Josh: Image-wise. Yeah, I think it's like, yeah, what is it? TJ, what do you think my glasses say about me?

Tommy: Maybe not for you, but faux intelligence. It's like the person who has all the books. They're not the person—

Michelle: You know what?

Tommy: Smart as, you know, they're not the smart person that read them all and has the depth of knowledge there, but visually, mate, you're smart.

Josh: Yeah. You look real smart.

Michelle: It's the same thing with people with British accents. I think if you have a British accent, you instantly sound 10% more sophisticated and more well-read. British people, I just instantly think they're smarter than people with other accents, including Americans. Sorry, Americans.

Josh: I'm more likely to listen to a doctor with the British accent. But then you hear what happened with COVID-19 and you're like, well, with all these accents, how could it have gone so wrong?

Zara: But, um, these accents, yeah.

Tommy: To be honest, I haven't, or I haven't enjoyed, um, English accent movies. I mean, it's not a genre at all, but it's just English people acting.

Zara: Hugh Grant is a genre of his own.

Tommy: Yeah, I know, I guess. But I haven't, so I hate I hate period dramas. I'm just gonna— I know that The Crown and all this stuff is great. People love it.

Josh: Like Notting Hill. Do you like Notting Hill?

Tommy: Yeah, I did like the film, but it at least had Sandra— was it Sandra Bullock in it? Who was the—

Zara: No, Julia Roberts.

Josh: Sorry, Julia Roberts.

Tommy: She's American.

Michelle: Sandra Bullock.

Tommy: Sorry.

Zara: Sandy. Sandy in Notting Hill.

Tommy: There's something about the American act. We grow up on it, right? Like, have you both been to America ever?

Michelle: No, Zara has.

Tommy: Don't you feel like when you're there, I think we're trained when we're young watching Hollywood films and American accents, like it feels so like, it's like this is where the stars are. You know what I mean? Like it's, they've done a good branding piece on American accents across the globe.

Zara: No, they have. And because I reckon I heard more American accents watching pop culture when I was younger than Australian, it feels like the default almost, like the number one. Number one, when in reality that's not true at all.

Michelle: Maybe it's because my dad's British. My dad moved over from England when he was a boy, and both my grandparents are English, so maybe I was just immersed in more British stuff than American stuff, because my default's not American, my default's British.

Tommy: Did you watch The Bill as a kid? The Bill?

Michelle: Yes.

Tommy: To be honest, that was one that I liked, The Bill. It was a great police, police drama.

Josh: I was more of a Woody Allen guy. Yeah, it was—

Zara: What about Love Actually?

Tommy: Love Actually, the film? Yeah.

Josh: Why do you keep saying that? Notting— was Notting Hill a—

Tommy: No, did I say the film?

Josh: Yeah, but for both times you said a film. It's like the film.

Tommy: I'm trying to— it's buying me time.

Josh: Is that buying time? Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. It makes you sound more intellectual because like you can say it to anything. Normal people, like the film. The study?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the book. The book? I mean, if I say it enough, I will get it right that there was a series and I may have been the one that has read them all and I needed to decipher which one we're specifically speaking to. But I mean, speaking of books, I mean, and also like things that make you feel good announcements. I remember months and months ago you announced that you're writing a book of your own.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: How's the process been versus the announcement? What felt better?

Michelle: Oh, it's such an interesting one because we've been working on it for so long. We signed the book deal in a food court in April of 2019.

Josh: So what food court was it?

Michelle: Full year. It was, um, High Point, which I— we had never been there in our entire lives. We just happened to be there.

Josh: Did you eat as well?

Zara: We're doing some work there. Yeah, we were having, um, the chips, the crinkly chips from one of the burrito places.

Josh: Salsa's. Oh yeah.

Zara: Salsa's.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, you were just hot desking. I was doing it, yeah. Do you reckon you'll morph the storey into, I was hot desking, was getting some lunch at the time.

Josh: I like that.

Tommy: I love the story. It's great.

Michelle: It was very us. Like we seem to be eating chips in all of our big moments with Shameless. So I think it was fitting that the book cover.

Zara: They're not glamorous moments, are they, Michelle?

Michelle: Oh no, not even a little bit. Food court is very on brand for us. It's been weird. It's interesting. The book is entirely done basically. Like it's in proof editing mode right now. And in the mode, kind of like the awkward phase of reaching out to people and being like, "Can you read this and give us an endorsement or like a little quote to put on the book cover if you like it?" So that's an uncomfortable but important thing to do as well. So I don't know, it's weird. It feels like forever ago that we wrote the thing. So I just can't wait for it to be out and for people to read it. 'Cause it feels like we wrote most of it, what Zara, like 9 months ago?

Zara: Yeah, I reckon we started really writing it and we will give more detail on it in the next 2 weeks. We're not even trying to be deliberately evasive. Actually, no, we are deliberately being evasive, but it is coming like into a—

Josh: Can you give us some form of exclusive?

Tommy: Come on.

Zara: Michelle, what kind of the word the is in it?

Josh: Oh yeah.

Zara: In the title. The first word is the.

Tommy: Is that a film or is that—

Michelle: The title's 3 words. There you go.

Zara: Yeah. Well, that's lots of clues. So I reckon we started writing it in June last year. And so I think what I find so strange is that I was, for most of the book, we smashed it out in about, a lot of the book writing we did in like the first 8 weeks and I was 24 at the time and I will be 26 when it's out. And it feels like quite a gap in maturity. And sometimes you're reading back and you're like, oh, would I say this differently or would I do this differently? But I think that's the case with any work, especially on such a long timeline. But it was pretty hard. God, I wouldn't recommend writing a book if you've got a— if you struggle with self-esteem. Yeah, you just feel like the world's shittest person and like, like so stupid. I know that sounds so dramatic, but you just feel like you can't get your words out. You're not articulating anything well. You're not smart and you're not good.

Josh: 'Cause like, I feel like I pretend like I'm like, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna start and I'll start. I'm like, this is gold, but I never bring it to any person. So it feels quite safe, you know? It calls bullshit.

Michelle: I think it happens all over the place. I think it happens in the writing phase. It happened for me probably more than it did for Zara, I think, in the actual writing bit before anyone put eyes on it. I think I was self-guessing myself all the time and I would start writing one part of the book and then, and look at the idea and be like, I don't even like that idea, I'm gonna start all over again. So I think I more than Zahra in the writing phase had a huge crisis of confidence and like was looking at some of my work being like, this is just not it. And then I'd scrap it and start again. And then the editing phase, we probably like oscillated a little bit between who found it more difficult. But there were definitely moments for both of us where we were like, fucking hell, I'm the worst writer ever. This will never be good. There were such huge moments of like, depleted confidence where we were like, this book is just not as good as we want it to be. But we finally got to the point now after working on it for so long where we're genuinely really happy. Like after we finish this chat, I'm gonna sit down with the final manuscript and go through and mark any proof edits that I can spot. So it's been an interesting process and to kind of see it in like physical form has been really exciting.

Zara: I don't think people warn you enough about that slump though. I think for, I know it's, I don't even think it's just case of book writing, but I think any project you work on for a really long time, those slumps were so big. Like, I would genuinely go to bed the night before knowing that I had to do a whole day of like looking at edits and rearranging stuff and kind of recrafting ideas and not being able to sleep because I was so filled with dread. Because you're literally facing all of this work that you put in for months and it potentially being wrong or needing to change or not being smart enough or not making sense. And that's kind of hard. But Mish was right, like, there's a lot in there and we've done everything we can to get it to a to the point where it's at least readable. But that we were talking yesterday, it's the permanency of the thing. Like, we've always worked in digital, and in podcasting I feel like you guys would be similar. The idea that something's in print forever is— is— can I swear?

Josh: Yeah, you can.

Tommy: Yes.

Michelle: Yeah, I've been swearing the entire time.

Zara: Now the impact's gone. Fucking terrifying.

Michelle: Um, well, yeah, it's, um, it's a weird one. It's been fun though. Like, I think the process has made us better writers for sure, having such talented editors and copy editors work with us on it has been so great because we're working with people who are far smarter and, um, yeah, far more educated about the industry than we are. So it's been great for our development, I think. I mean, we're only in our mid-20s, so it's been just awesome to have like mentors around us showing us the ropes.

Tommy: Well, I guess it's, uh, the first time you're going through it. What, even like, I've started releasing a video a day To be fair, I've done one. Today I'll do another.

Zara: I saw it. It looks awesome.

Tommy: But last night I was editing and I was like, oh, hello, old friend. I wasn't talking to myself. I was thinking— I was— no, no, no, it wasn't anyone in my house. I was— the old friend is that voice in your head just going, this is shit.

Mason: Look at you.

Tommy: You got a fucking line on your forehead. Like you just start criticising the most stupid shit that no one thinks about. But I've done so many videos in my life and I'm still getting that. So I think that the only certainty is that there will be that lizard brain at some point along the creative process. But I guess it's how you deal with it.

Zara: I think it's also— sorry.

Tommy: It's just how you deal with it. I think it's— Is it the bed thing that I brought up earlier?

Michelle: I'm really angry with you, so I'm going to cut you off every time.

Tommy: I'll be your—

Michelle: Yeah, I can do this well.

Tommy: How much do you want to pay for the air tasker? I'm happy to do it. I'll be honest, we'll do cash.

Zara: What's your rate?

Michelle: What's your rate to come pick it up?

Josh: He's on JobKeeper, so we'll do it for 10 bucks.

Zara: Yeah, 10 bucks cash.

Tommy: 10 bucks cash. I'll just put that back into my car. Thank you.

Michelle: 10 bucks. I'll make you a hot meal.

Josh: Oh great, what sort of hot meal?

Tommy: Oh yeah, what are you saying? No, no, 10 bucks. She doesn't want to pay the 10 bucks.

Josh: 10 bucks, but it depends what is the hot meal. Like a—

Michelle: What would you want? What's worth more than $10? I'll make you a roast or something.

Josh: What about that, Michael?

Zara: Oh, Michelle, have you ever cooked a roast in your life?

Michelle: No.

Josh: You know, you were doing that lamb thing that you had your mate helping with, you know, like both of you had been cooking, but that looked amazing.

Michelle: The pulled lamb.

Josh: Yeah.

Zara: What have I done? I've done lamb and ragu. I mean, I say I have, I actually can't cook. I'm a bit of a—

Michelle: More Ollie.

Zara: Fraud. My boyfriend is the cook, and I have it on my Instagram.

Josh: No, I appreciate it. I mean, look at me.

Zara: And so, yeah, I'm looking.

Tommy: No, no, look behind the books.

Josh: The books.

Zara: Of course, I get it now. Wow, that was our joke as well.

Josh: I know, that's okay. The whole thing around like writing a book and then having like a year and a half or whatever and getting older. How much from a growth perspective is there, like, with the podcast? And like, I feel like that we go, we oscillate between it being fun for what we're doing, but then there's definite moments of like, oh, this is actually, this is work right now. How has the relationship changed in regards to how you view the, the podcast?

Zara: Oh, that's so interesting. Whether it became more like work in the time that we were writing.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Not even when you're writing, just in general, like how has your perception of the podcast changed?

Zara: Yeah, I think it's gone from being— I mean, it started, it was the thing that I used to look forward to in my week. It's not probably the thing I look forward to most in the week, and that's not because I don't love it anymore. Like I love it a lot, but because it becomes the central part of your business and your workday, you think of it very, very differently to when it was some random kind of project that you and your friend were just sitting there down talking smack about. So it's definitely— I think, I think because also the job just gets harder as time goes on, like, because it gets bigger and it gets harder, you take it so much more seriously. And the fun— we try so hard now that we've realised that it's, it's work to bring the fun into it and make sure that there are really fun aspects so that we continue to feel that sense that we felt at the very start. Because it's always going to end up feeling like work, it's never always just going to be a hobby, but to have those elements sense of fun has been really important for us to put it in there. So it does sometimes just feel like two friends jumping on a mic.

Michelle: Yeah, totally. And it is still fun, but it definitely changes because the bigger something gets, the more you realize— like, in the early days, we would have had, what, 50 listeners an episode? And it was for us. Like, the majority of why we did the podcast was for our own enjoyment. But the bigger something gets and the bigger the audience gets, it becomes more for them than it is for you. So it's a matter of balancing what you genuinely find interesting and what you want to talk about with what the listeners want to hear. And I think the bigger a podcast gets, it doesn't always neatly align. So it's kind of like finding a happy medium. What does Zara and I genuinely enjoy talking about, and what does our audience want? And I think that's been a really good learning curve for us to try and find balance between those two things. Because if we only listen to what we want, or we only listen to what they want, it won't be a good product in the end because we're not genuinely enjoying and we're not genuinely invested in what we're doing. So It's like, we love the podcast, we love it so much, it's such a joy to bring it out. I definitely find at the moment, I think the Thursday episodes where we interview influential people, those are like my favourite things to do. I always get nervous before we sit down and do them, but I feel like I take so much away from them, and I feel like I genuinely love sitting down with people who are so clever in their fields and so insightful, because I— it's so rare that I'll walk away from an episode and not feel like I've learned something or had have a new perspective or a new mantra on life or approach to work or approach to relationships that I didn't have beforehand. So yeah, I think the more the podcast has gone on, the more I genuinely really love the Thursday episodes and how much I really like relish that time with people. 'Cause you don't get to sit down with incredible people that often. Like they're so time poor. So to be given that privilege is just such a joy.

Josh: Yeah.

Zara: Did you guys find that when you were recording twice a day, that kind of the joy was harder to find because you were pushing out so much stuff and you became like on a bit of a hamster wheel or not?

Josh: I think like for me, I enjoy the doing. Like I love this part of it. I love the tech. I love all that sort of thing. I think that the part that I find the hardest to reconcile is the relationship with the listener. And so understanding, okay, like, I don't have a huge friendship circle or whatever, like, I have a few tight friends and that's really it. And so what's thinking about, like, okay, what's the empathy for the listener? What do I— like, what am I saying right now? And how does that— like, what does that— how does that impact them? Or what's interesting right now? And so I think that why— what I find so interesting about your successes, you've been able to— I think it's such a different world that you're in because when you get to a scale, all of a sudden that relationship can change where it's like you're just hearing from it, like the, the amount of noise that would be hitting you. I don't know if I could do it. I like— it's a conversation that TJ and I have all the time, which is like we're always like half pushing our stuff out there because I'm all like, there's that worry that if you go outside of your circle, if you go outside of your frequency, you're going to find people who it's not for, and then you have to be prepared for whatever, you know, they have to say about it.

Michelle: I think, yeah, really anything though. Yeah, I feel like, um, with— I was talking to Zara about this last week, like with Normal People, it's something that I genuinely love. Like Normal People by Sally Rooney is my favourite book, and the television series is one of my favourite television series of all time, but but it's not gonna be for everyone, and that's definitely something that you just have to accept. Like, it's not gonna be for everyone.

Zara: And we're really lucky 'cause what we've managed to do in the last couple of years is find some pretty good mentors who can talk to us about how things grow and how normal it is for people to find a product they don't really like or to find a product they're really, really invested in, and it goes both ways. And for us to be able to have people to bounce off has been like completely invaluable 'cause for so long we've been driving blind, just the two of us, and we're kind of too young and like without the maturity to really understand how this industry works. Like we're just in many ways too green. So to be able to have people to bounce off keeps you completely sane, like so sane.

Michelle: Yeah, and we find them so helpful, like particularly in times like this where we're all in our homes, jumping on a call with a mentor who can kind of give us a bit of perspective has been so wonderful.

Tommy: I think there's also the version of, how you were coping and dealing with any feedback or creative project and what the internal monologue is for yourself. Because, you know, some people could have the exact same situation but dealing in the exact opposite, um, you know, way of handling it. And so the, the audience thing at the start, like, you create something at the beginning and you— and it's very hard to understand and put a face to, or a, you know, a persona to the audience, um, and really embody that. And then you start having people starting to listen, and then it's like, ah, it makes it that much easier to turn on the microphone because I know that I'm talking to the— our friends, the Gronk Squad. And you start really sort of seeing that. But I guess, JJ, you're talking about that step up from that, which is when there's a, you know, a hall full of noisy people. And, um, you know, every— there's every version of every person there.

Josh: Well, because like if, if you've got 100 people, there's got to be like at least 5 bad apples or whatever, right? Like surely, like, and so when you think about from a scale perspective, it's like, yeah, I think that that's a, an interesting challenge around, uh, listening to feedback and knowing, okay, this is stuff that You know, because the other thing too is I think that feedback is normally like, there's truth to feedback, but it's normally the thing that actually like makes you different. So it's that weird thing of being like, okay, this piece of feedback, yeah, they're right, I am this or I am that, but that's sort of like a superpower or something that I want to focus on. When do you, on the mentor stuff, Mish, like when do you reach out to them? Like, is it through times where it's tough, or do you sort of have regular calls?

Michelle: I think we try to do it regularly. I think it's definitely more regular when life is normal. We probably hadn't done it as regularly, um, in isolation, just because we haven't seen people, we haven't had the meetings that we generally tend to have. So it's mostly on a regular basis, and I think that's important for anyone in the industry. I mean, it's an odd industry that we're in, but we also have a responsibility responsibility, I think, that if you do have an audience, it's your responsibility to listen to them and be open-minded and everything. So yeah, I think for anyone listening, if you don't have a mentor in an industry that is very public, I would be my number one recommendation. Like, I very much hope that one day Zara and I individually or as a pair could be mentors to the same way that people have been mentors to us in the last 12 months, because I think it's been one of the key things that have helped us have perspective on everything.

Josh: So, what do they say then? What's some of the things that stand out?

Zara: Do you know what? It's— sometimes it's the stuff that you kind of know to be true, but you just want someone who you think is smart and empathetic to say it back to you. And it's just sort of like confirmation bias of something you think is true, but you really are desperate for them to say, "Yep." And I think for us, it's been mainly around growth. Like, as you say, growth has been so good, but there's also a lot of noise, and the hall and the house is quite big. I think all that's done for us is, um, probably it's more important for us to take breaks from it. I think more important for us to take holidays just to sort of like get out of that for a bit and get back into our own heads and our own lives for a couple of weeks at a time. I also kind of think that a job like this one has made me more introverted rather than extroverted. Like, I was quite an extrovert before I started this podcast, but I think because you're interacting with people all the time and you're having conversations about things all the time, and that's where your work energy is going. In my private life, I'm finding myself like kind of wanting to live a much quieter existence than I ever have, and that's probably why I've loved this period of isolation so much, much to my surprise. I wonder if you're the same, Mish.

Michelle: I don't like isolation purely because of mental illness stuff. Like I don't think it's good for my mind to ever be idle. And I said that— you can probably hear Mitch, by the way, playing with our puppy in the background. It's not good for my mind to not be busy. And that is kind of backwards. And I probably need to get to a place where it's fine for me to be quiet and to be in solitude or like have peacefulness and not be anxious. But that's just not where I am at the moment. And I know lots of anxious people are very similar, that the busier you are, the better you are. So I don't enjoy isolation, not because I don't like spending quality time with my partner. It's been wonderful to wake up and work with Mitch every day, but I want to be busy. I want to be commuting again every day. I want to be coming across.

Zara: What about in terms of like the job, in terms of like whether it's made you more— I mean, I guess maybe I kind of was a tiny— like wanted to go out more midweek all the time, like for dinner, and got my energy there, and that's kind of cut back way back. I don't know if it's changed for you based on how the job has changed?

Michelle: I mean, as far as am I more introverted or extroverted, is that what you mean?

Zara: Mm.

Michelle: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's definitely the feeling of wanting to fold into myself. And I saw that Pandora Sykes, she's a podcaster out of the UK. She hosts, she's the co-host of the HiLo Show for anyone who's not familiar with her.

Tommy: She—

Josh: Oh, this is a nightmare. I've got a fire alarm test. Oh no. I'm gonna mute myself.

Tommy: It's all right.

Josh: While you talk, it's about the timing.

Tommy: Oh. Yeah, no, I get what you—

Michelle: I think Grace Sykes tweeted though. She said that she wants to be like human origami, that right now she feels like the noise of the internet is very, very loud and she wants to kind of hide away and just be quiet. And I definitely feel like that. Like I've definitely in the last week in particular kind of wanted to spend less and less time on my phone 'cause I just feel like it can be quite confronting or like invasive sometimes to have a lot of noise. So I definitely feel like that. But as far as being introverted, extroverted in person, I don't know. I think I'm mostly the same, but I have noticed Zara probably become more introverted, but we're probably on the same level now. I think you were probably more extroverted than I was. Before all this.

Zara: Yeah, no, I've just been similar. Yeah, I love it.

Josh: I did have a question. I don't know if it's too distracting in the background.

Tommy: Oh no, I can't hear anything, mate.

Josh: Are you okay? Good, good. Um, this is going really well. The— I can't do two things at once, but I just wanted to know the— thank you. Um, in regards to the, uh, feedback, just push, push through, push through.

Zara: This is an amazing indication of how it is to record at home.

Josh: This is great, working from home is great.

Tommy: Now the builder coming to my house in about half an hour too, so hopefully we'll figure out that.

Josh: Social media stuff, like so the busy thing I find interesting, Mish, 'cause it's like there's different types of busy. There can be the busy where you can be scrolling through and writing back to people and doing all of that. What is the busy that serves versus the, busyness that adds to the anxiety?

Michelle: The more time I'm off my phone, the better. So if I'm busy in terms of like commuting around and being in the office and being around Zara and Annabelle and not being left for my own thoughts to go wild, that's better for me being in the office with other people. I feel like I'm such an overthinker that if I see something or I don't know, I feel like when I, 'cause I'm such an overthinker and if I'm not busy, it's like all my walls of insulation are just totally torn down. Down. So something that would normally not get through and I wouldn't even think about now does only— it doesn't only penetrate, it like consumes me. So I've definitely noticed that, like going into isolation, I've had to like triple the amount of psychologist appointments I'm going to. I'm now going every fortnight instead of every 6 weeks, and I haven't done that since 2017 when I began going. So, um, yeah, just the, the nature of being by myself or stuck with my own mind is not ideal.

Tommy: But I mean, the hard bit is that is the human experience. We aren't like— we are— we— I mean, this is the— Sam Harris, who has a meditation app called Waking Up, has an awesome, awesome talk about meditation in the middle of chaos. And it's about being in isolation and essentially what you're talking about. It's an opportunity where we are all needing to have time to ourselves, quiet time where we are confronted with our mind. I mean, how do you reconcile between, uh, creating enough noise that you're distracted from your own mind and then the, the reality of, you know, you will have quiet time where you have to confront that stuff? I am asking as someone who, you know, you've mentioned you have anxiety and this is not an ideal time for you. How do you reconcile that?

Michelle: Well, I mean, in an ideal world, it would be different. Like in an ideal world, I'd be able to cope without needing noise. And I understand that that would absolutely be a long-term goal. But I think for now, I'm just trying to get through. Like I'm just trying to be okay at the end of everything where I'm not an emotional, anxious wreck. So I know that like best case scenario, I'd be able to spend long patches of time by myself and be blissful and totally happy. And hopefully one day that is the case. All I know is that right now it's not the case. And I don't think it's helpful for anxious people to beat themselves up over that. I think like if you're in the middle of a pandemic, it's fine to get through however you wanna get through and however you can, not survive's a bit hyperbolic, but however you can maintain some kind of like balance and calmness. So I mean, yeah, ideally I would be able to just I can just do this on my own and be okay. It just, it isn't the case right now. So I'm not on medication at the moment. So I would prefer to stay off it just for personal reasons, 'cause I'm already on so much medication for my asthma. So I think it's just a matter of finding new coping mechanisms and figuring out what will work. 'Cause so many different people with anxiety and mental illness have so many different ways of coping kind of like having a strategy or a game plan around tackling it. So, it might be a matter of going back to the drawing board with my psychologist and figuring it out. But right now I'm just trying to get through a day without like bursting into tears because I'm so overwhelmed.

Josh: Is the overwhelm— because I feel like I get very overwhelmed when there's like a lot of people involved because it feels like I'm a storyteller. And so, the more people, the more potential storeys or the more small interactions that I could then be, um, misinterpret or create a storey about it. Like, that person writing that, they definitely mean this. How much of it for you is, uh, triggered by that sort of interaction with other people?

Michelle: Uh, as far as people in person, very, very little. Like, I don't think I spend time with people and then go away and fret over what I did. Like, my anxiety is not very socially intwined at all. I think my anxiety actually, I'm like, we've written, I've written about this before and it'll come up in future projects, but my anxiety is very much related to myself. Like it's not how I relate to other people, it's how I relate to me. And like my, I'm hyper, hyper critical of myself, which I think serves me well in some contexts and that I think it makes me good at my job, often, not all the time, but most of the time. But when you're only left with your work and you're only left with either noise on the internet or whatever, and you don't have the people that you love around you as much, like my girlfriends, Mitch's friends, our family, Zara even, just having her as a sounding board every day, or Annabelle in person, then I am left with my own hypercritical thoughts. And it's very difficult to get through a day when you're constantly constantly being told by yourself that you're not good enough. So that's my anxiety. My anxiety is not related to other people. My anxiety is entirely related to my relationship with myself.

Josh: And so then that doesn't project on, like, so say if you feel a certain way about yourself, like I feel like this with my weight, where it's like if I'm feeling heavier, I feel like people are thinking that, how much of it then projects back or is it all contained?

Michelle: I mean, occasionally. It's an interesting question 'cause you would think that if that's the way I think about myself and if I do get into spirals of self-hatred that I would then assume that everyone else hates me. And sometimes I do think that way, but it's not like day to day I come home and I have all these little instances of moments where I think I've upset someone or I've said the wrong thing or I've annoyed someone. I don't know, Zara, you know me well. What do you think?

Zara: Well, in what context? What kind of sets you off the most?

Michelle: Well, I don't know. What do you think triggers my anxiety?

Zara: It's a really— I do think idle time. I don't think that there are sometimes— sometimes I think— I know this is so weird to try and psychoanalyse you in front of other people, but it's kind of interesting to me because sometimes you'll think something is the trigger, like whether it be a situation at work or maybe it might be, for example, like book writing got really intense and you're like, "Well, it must be that." And I kind of try and say, I sit there with you and I'm like, well, I don't feel like our situation has changed that much or our scenario has changed that much. So is there something else going on? Do you know what I mean?

Michelle: Like— Yeah, it's interesting. I remember, to give an example to everyone listening who's like, what the fuck are they talking about? I remember a couple of weeks ago we had to reach out to a few people to ask them to read our book. And I found that so intensely anxiety-inducing. I had to like turn off my phone and like sit by myself 'cause I couldn't, grapple with the thought of me sending something to someone and then them realising that I, like, I don't know. 'Cause I think it's not good enough or I think I'm not good enough, giving it to someone else and then dealing with the fact that they might turn around and be like, yeah, like validate my fear. So that was weird 'cause I was so intensely anxious and Zara was like, why the fuck are you like, what's going on?

Zara: You were like, I can't hit send on these emails. I'm throwing my phone across the room. And I remember calling you being like, okay, worst case scenario right now is no one replies 'wise.' And that is not yet like indication that people hate the book. It's more of an indication that people are too fucking busy to read our entire book and give us an endorsement. Like, that's all it is. And that is totally fair. Like, if someone sent us something, what's the guarantee that we would have the time or energy outside of our own work and projects to dedicate to that? Like, that's not personal in the slightest. But it is that kind of sense of like— I guess in those kind of moments, sometimes logic doesn't really matter. I think when most of them— logic doesn't matter, and many of the feelings that we have aren't married to logic or rational at all.

Michelle: And it's just struck me, this probably seems very self-indulgent, them having people psychoanalyse me, but I genuinely do believe that it's helpful for anyone to talk about anxiety and depression on a public sphere, like platform, wherever that is. Like, not to say that my anxiety is special or that we should all sit around and pick it apart, but just to say that it's helpful for anyone to talk about anxiety, 'cause I don't, I think we have conversations around anxiety that are quite surfacey and kind of downplay how serious it is. I think anyone who knows me very well, whether that's Zara or Mitch or my family, know that it's quite intense at times. And I think public discourse around what anxiety looks like can be quite silly and downplay like the severity of what it can look like day to day.

Josh: I feel like logic. TJ, like, I feel like we talk a lot about like, ah, I feel like I'm true if I'm in a spiral. Someone trying to speak logically to me, I feel like only triggers me more because it feels like in that moment it's like, no, like, you've got your reality, I've got my reality. You're not speaking like— we both think that we're speaking from a place of logic, who's right or who's wrong. I mean, I think that, um, yeah, TJ, what's, what's your thoughts? Because I feel like you've had a diff— you have a different journey in regards to anxiety, that it's there but it's not necessarily— it doesn't come out the same way as, say, what mine does.

Tommy: Well, I guess, uh, just on your point, Michelle, around the conversation of anxiety, I think, you know, like, me as a, you know, 12-year-old or 15-year-old or 18-year-old or 23-year-old, I don't think I was thinking that I was an anxious person. I didn't identify. I don't think the conversation was definitely there, but it's not like it is today where, you know, everyone is reflecting and, and reflective of their internal dialogue and what state they're in. And it's nothing but positive, I, I think. Um, but yeah, there's, there's differing levels of anxiety. And like you said, you have severe or you have a small amount. It's like, it is worth understanding and knowing what that feeling is and acknowledging it. It's, I mean, JJ, there's a, I think it's our versions of what anxiety we have are I think I am one that goes to that logic place. It's probably, you know, maybe it is. I feel like, um, Zara, you mentioned about the email stuff and those things are— do you find that reassuring, Michelle, when you hear that from Zara? That sort of—

Zara: yeah, that's what I was just about to ask. No, because I'm not sure.

Michelle: Is though, is that I put too much value— I know that my value is misplaced, like I know that my priorities or my value system is out of whack. Like, I place far too much emphasis on what other people think of me compared to the average person. Like, I think I'm hypercritical and I place too much value in everyone's opinions of me. So, but when Zara does say, what's the worst thing that can happen is that they don't reply. And the reasons that they might not reply extend beyond you suck. Like, reasons are they've got young kids at home, They're asked to do this every second week by authors, and if they said yes to us, they'd have— they'd feel pressure to say yes to everyone else. They just might miss it in their inbox and it might be totally innocent. Like, saying those things genuinely does help me and does put into perspective. It's an interesting thing with my anxiety. I feel like if I vocalise something though, I'm already kind of like— the horse has bolted. Like, as soon as I've had the thought and then got into the stage of voicing it out loud, it's too late. Like, the anxiety is already there. I'm already spiralling about it. I have so many thoughts all the time that often I push them down, but if I vocalise one, it's kind of like, oh, fuck, I'm having a bad day.

Josh: Does anything serve you in your anxiety? Because I feel like part of the thing is like, I'm very obsessive, and so if it's on the wrong thing, it's destructive. But then if it's on the right thing, it could be extremely productive. Does your anxiety serve you at all, Mish?

Michelle: I think my anxiety served me, um, in a career sense because I think it makes me care a lot about what I do. I think it has also made me a more empathetic and sensitive person. I think we can often talk about like sensitive people as being weak, but I think there is a certain strength in caring and caring deeply about the people and the things around you. And I genuinely do care a lot about a lot of things, and I'm not sure I be caring and be empathetic without my anxiety. Not to glamorise it because it's still an illness, but I think the, the parts of my personality that are anxious parts are definitely parts of me that care deeply about family and friends. Like, I'm fiercely, fiercely loyal to my family in particular, um, and like my partner and everything. So I think I, I am extremely affectionate, extremely loving. As a person. So those are the positive aspects. I mean, the negative aspects are probably I'm also hyper-emotional all the time. Like, I have very emotional responses to things because I place so much self-worth in otherwise meaningless everyday things.

Josh: Yeah, it's an interesting one because, yeah, if it serves you or if it feels like it's really part of you, I think that that's the hard thing is it's like I think that a lot of— I spend a lot of time in trying to work out the fixing of these things. Like, okay, what can I do to like fix this or fix that?

Michelle: Or—

Josh: and it feels so intertwined with everything that you do that it seems quite hard to separate the good and the bad.

Michelle: Yeah, I've done, um, it'll— yeah, there's, there's stuff that I've done about this as well that I'm excited to share. Um, but I definitely feel like I've always been an anxious person. So figuring out where that line is between, okay, I've— I was anxious when I was a toddler, and I was anxious when I was 13 and 18 and 25 and now 26. When did it become an anxiety disorder? And where is the line between the two? Like, what do I look like without anxiety? I would look like a completely different person. So it's not like I want to remove the anxious parts of myself because they make me who I am. I want to remove the parts of myself that make extremely difficult to function sometimes. And this is the first time my anxiety's been mismanaged or out of control in years. Like the last couple of years it's been really quite well managed. I just wanna be honest about it not being managed at the moment, 'cause I think that's important. I think so often we hear conversations around mental illness when someone's doing really well, like they've gone through it, they've gotten help and now they're okay. And I don't think mental illness is ever that linear. I don't think you—

Josh: Can you even say mismanage then? Like, how do you mismanage? Like, you're managing it differently.

Zara: Yeah, because I think you're applying fault there.

Michelle: Well, it's not that I'm— see, it's tricky, like, 'cause there is some fault in that I'm not exercising. Exercise is a huge part of managing my anxiety. I'm not exercising anywhere near enough. So it's, yeah, you're right. It's probably is putting blame on myself again. But I do think there's a problem with conversations around mental illness only happening when someone's reached a resolution. Resolution. And I think in reality you're going to have hurdles and need to find resolutions again and again and again. So it's helpful to talk about it when you're like, and so this is a dip and I'm not doing great, but I'm going to do something about it.

Tommy: Well, I can't remember a stint of more than 2 days where I've felt amazing, and whether it be just some version of anxiety or stress that comes in. So that, that is the promise of the human experience, is that it will be up and down and every version of your emotion across a week or a couple of days or even a day itself. And so, I mean, that's— I mean, all this stuff is right, like, us understanding and accepting what, what is the human experience, and then it's the way forward. Yeah, I don't know if there's a, a version of fixed which And medication will keep you at like high, high levels of medication could keep you at an exact version. But I mean, that's not the existence that you want necessarily.

Josh: I wonder if there's like a lifestyle that like, so being in the spotlight, being in the public eye, having a big audience, I mean, like, do you think, Mish, about like, oh, if I was doing like a regular job where I didn't have so many sort of— because there's— if you've got the self-critical part of you in you, and then you enter into a world that is critical and that allows for people to give that sort of feedback, do you ever think about what your life or what you'd be like as a person if you weren't exposed to that?

Michelle: Yeah, all the time. I mean, Zara and I both have siblings who are in completely non-public public careers. Like, it's, um, very like traditional career paths. I think it would be natural for both of us to even consider what our lives would be like if we weren't in the media and doing what we were doing. Um, I, I have considered and I thought about it, I think about it all the time, like, is my work too public to be mentally happy? But ultimately I keep arriving at the same, um, belief in that I, I love what I do. Like, I genuinely love work. I find so much enjoyment and fulfillment, more importantly, out of what we do and what we put out into the world. So I think it's more a case of learning to cope with the noise. And I don't— I just— because I'm not doing that right now doesn't mean I normally do it. Like, I've done it for 2 years, um, and I'm fine. Like, I don't want to take this pocket of a pandemic and be like, oh, all of a sudden my career is— I'm on the wrong career, I'm I need to change everything and I can't cope with, um, the feedback that comes with being in the public eye because normally life looks nothing like what it does right now. So I think that's why I'm trying not to extrapolate too much from like 6 weeks of existing because I did this for 24 months, or particularly the last 12 months before things got really, really big, um, and I've, I've been mostly fine. Like Zara would say, I've had little blips where I haven't been well, but we've We've had that for each other. Like we've both had moments where we've struggled, but we were definitely coping perfectly fine before the pandemic.

Tommy: What job would you do outside? Like you can't do any of the jobs you've previously done. You had to start a new leaf. I like to think I'd be a great cop. I don't know if there's any truth to that, but—

Zara: In the times where I've been like, is this for me? Like, can I handle, like I said to Mish, if we stay in this line of work forever, any kind of work we ever do will be public, and that's kind of a weird thing to put out that nothing you can kind of do, nothing you can ever do to earn money can be private in the kind of specific sphere that we found ourselves in. So in the times that I've thought about like other work, I'm then like, I don't think I could fucking do anything else. Like I don't know what in the world I would be good at or what I could possibly do. Like I just have no idea.

Josh: It's a nightmare.

Michelle: I think it would have to be like, I've always wanted to be a psychologist. I was always like, toying with that before. And I mean, so ironic because we've just spent all this time talking about mental illness. Probably psychology. I think I've had, my family has a history of mental illness. So I've always had an interest in it. So yeah, I would love to be a psychologist if I wasn't a writer and a podcaster.

Josh: Yeah.

Zara: Yeah, maybe I would see myself in law.

Michelle: Is it OnlyFans?

Josh: I would give it AllFans a crack. Is that the thing that everyone's? OnlyFans.

Michelle: OnlyFans.

Tommy: OnlyFans.

Josh: OnlyFans.

Michelle: OnlyFans. I don't know about this, Zara. Have we spoken about this?

Zara: Yeah, you don't have to get naked.

Josh: You don't have to get naked.

Tommy: But you will make more money.

Zara: It's encouraged.

Josh: I feel like it could be a good in-between for you if you don't want to go public, but you still need sort of some of the public eye. You could create a bit of a community.

Michelle: Zara, I can go into public. I love it. There you go.

Josh: But what is the deal? No, that's not what I mean. OnlyFans can do anything from— I mean, TJ, you know more about the OnlyFans thing. What is the actual deal? Who's on? Can you search who's on it?

Tommy: Disclaimer: have never paid for an OnlyFans subscription. You've got a contradiction. And just Google, uh, you know, leaked OnlyFans.

Josh: And so what is the deal with OnlyFans, dude?

Tommy: It is fascinating. And I can't— I, I predict in the next 2 months you'll talk about OnlyFans on your podcast.

Josh: Uh, you're 2 months ahead of Shameless. He's coming. He was talking No, it's not normal people like he did before.

Zara: Mr. Zeitgeist.

Tommy: It is the modern day version.

Josh: That's huge, TJ. I mean, if people want to get shameless before it hits Shameless, listen to the Daily Talk Show. Where else can you get that?

Zara: Yeah, I know.

Josh: I could bring it up. Go on, TJ.

Tommy: I watched an interesting conversation between Logan Paul of all people and, you know, a couple of other people on his podcast. Where they were, they were talking about a, um, so what was TikTok before TikTok? It was Musical.ly, I think. And there was the biggest Musical.ly star, this young girl who has now gone on to OnlyFans. And, you know, it was surprising to a bunch of people and, you know, very young. And, and, and then I was reading a few articles of people talking about this is the modern version of, um, when people made the decision to start doing porn back in the day. And the sort of, you know, the, um, the career damaging, can't work again is OnlyFans, is that new version. And I, I've watched a, a couple of guys who I followed years ago on Instagram.

Michelle: They just used to do prank channels, and then they've all gone on to it. I know who you're talking about.

Tommy: And they've got a, you know, one's got a girlfriend, he's doing OnlyFans. I mean, if they're being truthful these people are making so much money, like, yeah, 50 grand a month from doing some podcasts.

Josh: Are we going to get over, are we going to get over sort of the taboo nature and we're all going to just be, be honest?

Zara: Subscriber-based podcasts on OnlyFans, sexy content. It's like the sealed section of the Dolly thing, Mitch. We could do sexy episodes of Shameless on OnlyFans.

Tommy: And then there is like other girls on, you know, big influencers on Instagram that are refusing to collaborate with any girl who has done OnlyFans or has an OnlyFans. And so it is this sort of big circle of people going, you know, OnlyFans is tarnishing, OnlyFans is making people—

Josh: Well, we'll have anyone that's come from OnlyFans on. We're an open show.

Zara: We don't discriminate.

Tommy: We absolutely don't discriminate. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see, like, what people— like Aaron Carter, we got a message when we were talking about OnlyFans. He's, I think he's got a fiancée. He does hardcore gay porn on OnlyFans. That's what this person told us. Yeah. And so there's all this stuff we don't, you don't know unless you subscribe.

Michelle: So the main way I came across it was actually those prank channels that you were just talking about. Mitch and I have watched a few of those videos and stuff, just like dumb stuff on the internet. It's really kind of kills your brain cells, but it's fun to watch. And I've been really surprised by how many of that, that group have gone into porn, literal porn. It's no judgment, it's for you.

Tommy: Well, yeah, I mean, judgement aside, it is the weird step that I don't even know if these people— technology has created the entrance into porn in a, in a seamless way where people, I'm sure, would have, you know, a year ago never thought they'd be doing that.

Josh: It's the onboarding. I wonder what the onboarding process is to be to get into porn nowadays. It's like it starts with just doing some Snapchats.

Zara: And surely this has got something to do with like it being direct-to-consumer and then making far more money without other people taking a cut, which is a great thing. I think at the end of the day, if people are able to make like genuine good cash from something that they want to, then maybe it's better that there aren't big companies out there taking the cut, their cut from it.

Tommy: And weren't there a whole bunch of headlines, um, last year?

Michelle: I can't remember the name of her. Everyone The Mia Khalifa, the number one porn star in the world, revealing that she—

Zara: Yeah, and she made like nothing.

Michelle: $2,000 for those videos. She had absolutely nothing for these videos that were streamed millions and millions of times. So you could even say that, Tommy, you've brought us a great segment idea. Thank you so much.

Zara: This is actually good because it's democratic.

Michelle: It's like, it's a feminist argument. Women who are doing porn are being paid for it.

Tommy: There is another porn star that is the biggest in the world. She did porn for—

Josh: TJ's loving this now. Oh, you want to know? Now he's bringing out all his knowledge.

Michelle: I've also studied this.

Zara: All these OnlyFans.

Tommy: 3 months, 3 months, and hasn't done it in 3 years, but she's still the number 1. Doesn't do porn.

Josh: Has a partner. Just reusing content.

Tommy: Has a partner, but has an OnlyFans and has a private Snap account where she makes something like $300,000 a month. But I mean, if anything, like, I mean, And the sad bit of that Mia storey is that she couldn't make any money and she put herself out there and, you know, whatever. I think she says it sort of ruined her for a long time. But it's like, it's a time where they end up reaping the money.

Josh: Reaping the money. John Ronson, who did So You've Been Publicly Shamed, he did the Audible original, I think it's called The Butterfly Effect, which is all on like the porn industry and it covers all that sort of stuff. But it's interesting.

Michelle: It's interesting. Like, I definitely care a lot more now that I've thought about it from the fact that like women and men who are doing it will at least be making the money, not these huge porn corporations. It's kind of cool.

Zara: This is a term, but I guess, or like a general look at it, but I guess less likely to be taken advantage of because of that like direct-to-consumer avenue that they've got.

Michelle: So I'm probably less likely to be taken advantage of. You might be right, Tommy Jacket.

Zara: This may be—

Michelle: Assault.

Zara: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Porn on my terms.

Zara: This may be a shameless second spin.

Tommy: The, the, at least the porn my way. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: What's everyone watching or listening or consuming? It doesn't— it's a weird transition, but, uh, it's quiet.

Zara: Um, what am I watching, listening? I haven't been doing— I'm looking for a television series, so if anyone's got any really good recommendations of something I'm going to get stuck into please come at me. But I just finished Normal People, like every second person in the world. I'm loving— since is just been deep diving any Sally Rooney interview ever. I just think where I overcook anything, like if I like something, I'll either eat it in excess or listen to it in excess. So all I do is just go through iTunes and find interviews with Sally Rooney, which I am loving.

Josh: Um, your internet cooked a little bit, but I heard all of that. The, um, We do. So iTunes, you're not using like the Sally Rooney stuff? Like YouTube would be a good resource. Like I've got YouTube on the TV and I just YouTube people's names. Like that's sort of how I get into my rabbit holes.

Zara: I'm not a watcher, I'm a listener. Like I'm a doer as I'm listening. So I just type it into the old iTunes account.

Michelle: She's too busy to watch things.

Josh: No, I get it. If you have YouTube Premium.

Zara: You lazy thing, Josh.

Josh: No, you've got YouTube Premium. Where I reckon the future is, it's like you'll just sometimes you'll watch, you'll have it on the TV and then you'll like go to your car and it will like pass on to you. And so yeah, seamless. Yeah, video first and then audio amongst it all. Ooh, groovy groovy. But I think it's a good idea to, with listening you can actually walk and do things. I've done less than 1,000 steps a day for the past 6 weeks. Mish, what do you?

Michelle: Mitch and I have been watching The Last Dance, or Last Dance, however you want to pronounce it, with, um, the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix. Loving it. Like, I love sports, so, um, combining like the drama and the— I don't know, just like looking back, like there's a bit of nostalgia factor. Obviously I'm not from the US and I don't really give a crap about basketball, but I think there are elements of Michael Jordan's career that have nostalgic for everyone. So, um, looking back on that has been really good. Like, I'm finding myself every night wanting to watch a new episode of that series. And then I'm also enjoying Terrace House. I kind of had like a hiatus from Terrace House. If you haven't watched that, it's a reality television show on Netflix that has— it's from Japan, so it's got subtitles, English subtitles. I'm watching the Hawaii, um, season of that show, and I just love it so much. It's just like the most calming thing to have on the television. It means I have to put my phone down, otherwise I have no friggin' idea what's going on 'cause I'm not reading the screen. So yeah, I've been like training Benji to sit and stay and all those good things while watching Terrace House and Michael Jordan.

Josh: It feels like—

Tommy: That is awesome.

Josh: There's a lot of hype, but do you think that hype is at the extreme at the moment? Like say with Tiger King or all the different things, it's like, Everything is overhyped. It's like the, and I get tricked every time and I end up like trying to buy into the hype. I tried to watch the one where it's like the people in the boxes and they're doing the dates, but they can't see each other.

Michelle: I did that one. Love is Blind.

Josh: Yes, I did Love is Blind. And then I did the one where they go on the island and they can't have sex or kiss or whatever.

Zara: Too Hot to Handle. Yeah, Too Hot to Handle.

Michelle: You're so right, Josh.

Zara: There's this article that I read recently, and I'm also gonna butcher this 'cause I can't remember the title, but it was from a year ago and it was on Longreads, but it was basically like, when did we all have to become like pop culture experts? And it's this idea that we're in like this hype era where things have like the fastest high, like the fastest high and a really quick crash. And it's almost like if you don't watch something or consume something that's really popular in that week or two that everybody else is, it almost becomes irrelevant. And I find it very interesting for like pieces of content to be like, we all feel so much pressure now to consume something at a certain time when in reality these things are kind of timeless. It's just that if you want to be part of the conversation, you've got to do it now or forever be out of it.

Michelle: I think as well, like, people are connecting over pop culture and television and film now more than ever. We don't have sport to do that for us at the moment. So if there's going to be a public conversation, it's going to be about one show in particular, and people get FOMO if they're not watching it. I also think— I don't think it's just praise, and I don't I think it's just hype. I think things are overhyped and I think they're over-criticized at the moment. I think everyone has too much time to be thinking really intensely about everything. And I think that brings out commentary from both sides. So I don't think people are just being too glowing. I think they're also being too harsh about things that they're not loving. So it's kind of like both sides of the coin present themselves at the same time.

Tommy: Yeah, but let's be honest, when someone comes to you and we've all got a mate who has said, have you heard Is it real? The podcast? It's like, come on, it's fun to have a—

Michelle: Kim Kardashian does that a lot. Kim Kardashian does that every single day.

Tommy: I don't know, I reckon there's something in that where she knows that it's going to have that effect. Like, I think they get quite in tune. Is it okay to hype something and recommend it before it's even come out and you haven't seen it? Is that a no-no?

Zara: Total no-no.

Tommy: Because I've seen the trailer and it looks epic, and its reviews are great. And, um, it is called Becoming the King of Staten Island. It looks so, so good. And it's got Pete Davidson. Until you've watched it, Pete Davidson, who— I want you to watch the trailer and you'll be on my side. Pete Davidson, who's on Saturday Night Live, used to go with Ariana Grande. Um, he— his dad died as a firefighter in September 11th fighting the fires at the Twin Towers. And, um, it's about him. It's like a biopic, written kind of biopic. It like, it's, it plays a, a guy who lost his dad in the fires. And so it's, it looks ridiculous. It looks ridiculous. So I, I'm— it comes out in June.

Zara: I mean, it sounds interesting.

Tommy: Just watch it. It's funny.

Zara: We can get behind the hype when we've watched it.

Josh: Well, this is how TJ can get 3 months ahead of ahead of you, he needs to just be recommending shit that's not out yet. It's the only way to stay ahead, you know.

Tommy: You recommend enough, something will land.

Josh: It's the Gary Vee method. You just talk enough shit, you cut it up into bits, and then you're like, look, I said TikTok was going to be big.

Tommy: Hey, hey, I put it out there that we'd get it. We'd get a tile on Gemma Watts's Instagram. We got it, you know. Ask and you shall receive. Girls, uh, can we get a tile on the Shameless, um, Instagram?

Josh: Like a meme? Could you do a meme?

Tommy: You know what?

Zara: Yeah, mate.

Tommy: I actually think Seb's got the tile. Yeah, I actually think Mason.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Mr. Confidence. There he is, look at him. That looks like a face of a tile on the Shameless Instagram.

Josh: He's got the shot for it.

Michelle: Haven't we done enough for you, 90Sevs? We got you a girlfriend.

Josh: Yeah, I know.

Michelle: Yeah.

Mason: No, I think it's great.

Josh: That's heaps. Seb, any questions? You've been sort of off, uh, off screen today, but anything you wanted to bring up? Any admin or—

Mason: um, well, I mean, I just think around the whole, um, anxiety conversation, like, I mean, I'm just echoing what everyone's mentioned in the comments, but I think it's just being able to have the conversation and normalise and sort of remove the stigma around it is one of the best things we can do. So grateful for that.

Josh: And so back to the tile. Back to the tile. Back to the tile. That's the Instagram tile. Did you even know? I mean, Michelle's on a delay, but you got the Instagram tile. That's what I was talking about. There you go.

Zara: I love it when you have to over-justify a joke.

Josh: Oh, definitely. That's sort of my shtick. That's, that's, you know, it's all gear, you know, just gear.

Tommy: Um, just, yeah, double down.

Josh: Yeah. Thank you for coming on the show. Anything else?

Michelle: Thank you for having us.

Zara: Thank you for having us.

Josh: I mean, you're, um, we're very— I'm sorry, I mean, Michelle, this— I know why you've got anxiety. It's got something to do with Zara's internet, because that would set me off too.

Michelle: What the hell?

Zara: Why would it give everyone else more anxiety than me? I'm the one that has to deal with it.

Josh: Live with it. No, no, we're living with it. Can I just say there's nothing more triggering than seeing you off screen while Mish is talking, plugging your computer into power. What do you mean you didn't have power plugged into the computer through the whole thing?

Zara: I had a— wait, I had 100%. I didn't need power. Also, I would like to say, now that we're finishing this, I reckon I'm caught 50% of anything that's been said this entire chat, and I've held my tongue pretty well. So I love how you guys think that you've had the issue.

Josh: Just so you know, like, things like the power, the stuff like the power, it is good to have everything plugged in. So when you, when you go to super low energy on the, the laptop, everything starts to shit the bed. So Wi-Fi, everything.

Michelle: Josh, I put it—

Zara: I plugged it in before. I love how you saw that. That too. I'm gonna be very subtle because Michelle was being— talking about herself very lovely, but I put it in before it hit 20% because I knew that it was huge.

Josh: Yeah, you got to do it way before 20%.

Zara: Anyway, all right, well, it was lovely being here.

Josh: And also Ethernet, like, can you— how close are you to your router?

Zara: Um, oh God, there's a few—

Josh: no, there's a few. No, it's definitely not a lecture, but I'm just— I'd love to help well, there's just a few things. Getting an Ethernet cable so you're not worrying about— like, even NBN, I heard on the radio they're doing ads where they're like, hey, we're adding 40% more bandwidth for ISPs at no cost, and things like that. But they're also saying that, hey, it could be your Wi-Fi. And so my guess is that your internet might be better than you think, and you could just run a cable.. So if you did want to explore that.

Michelle: I don't have ATM.

Josh: What have you? ADSL?

Zara: I don't know. And I also can't really hear anything anymore, so I might have to clock off.

Tommy: She's nodding. Thanks for being here, Sarah.

Josh: Thanks, Michelle. Before we go, I'm going to play one of the 10 seconds of admin. And here we go. 10 seconds of admin. Take a screen grab right now of you listening to the show, post it on Instagram as a story. Story and we'll re-gram it. What a deal!

Michelle: We need one of that, Laura.

Tommy: One of the best.

Zara: I know.

Tommy: You can take that.

Michelle: Thanks, guys.

Zara: Bye!

Mason: You can take it.

Zara: Thank you so much.