From Chaos To Calm With Shannah Kennedy

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 646, and welcoming—

Josh: is this our first guest to our remote setup? Shanna Kennedy, welcome back to the show.

Tommy: I'm going to clap from my home. First off, Shanna, where are you joining us from right now?

Shannah: Thank you. I'm joining you live from Hampton in Victoria.

Josh: Keeping that social distancing at least 10K is what I say.

Tommy: Yes, exactly. Shanna, we were talking off air about working from home over the last 17 years. You've been doing it for a long time. What is the biggest change in habit that people can make in this time of moving to working at home?

Shannah: Yeah, it's interesting. My husband and I were talking about this this morning because he said, you know, you've been doing this for 17 years, you know exactly what to do. To stay motivated, really, really focused and inspired. Because for a lot of people, it's hell to work from home. They miss people, they miss the community, there's no water cooler talk. It can be very, very lonely and it can be very, very isolating. So for me, I stick to a very, very simple plan, which is the night before, I always write my list for the next day. Because our— remember, our brain really does need a map. And when we get up and there's a list, we're already on the front foot and we think, "Ah, okay, I know what I have to do today." If we get up and we haven't really created a structure for ourselves, a lot of people can get really lost and stay in their pyjamas for too long or, you know, just feel a little uninspired for the day. So I always write the list the night before. I think that's imperative. And the second thing I do is I get up and I exercise every day for an hour before I even turn my phone on.

Tommy: And so there you go.

Shannah: I've got a whole lot, I've got a whole list to go through if you want. But I think it's non-negotiable to get up and to move.

Josh: It's a strange time at the moment because that's like a map for your own day where usually you have kind of the future understood to the best of your ability. But at the moment with what we're going through, through. There's so much uncertainty about the future. And so I wonder if people are losing sight of being able to create that map for your own day based on being so overwhelmed with what— and having so much unknown about the future. What are your clients, your coaching clients, what's the sort of theme at the moment with what's going on?

Shannah: Well, we're all in full creative mode because Well, there's two things. One is creating a structure, and the second is what can we create. And the first thing is creating the structure, which is how you start the day and how you finish the day. What happens during the day is changing day by day. You know, what we're allowed to do, not allowed to do, will we go into full lockdown? So that part's not in our control, but the way that we begin the day and the way that we finish the day is actually in our control. Your first hour and a half, your last hour and a half of the day are actually yours, and all that commute time that you had is now yours. So what do you really want to do to make this time effective for you so you feel like you're achieving? So in the beginning of the day, it's exercise, prep some food for the day, write your journal. It's time to do a meditation. You're not, you're not sitting in traffic anymore. So you can actually try. What is a meditation like? There's one gazillion now online free classes that you could try out. So it's a really nice time to set up some things to trial for yourself. And then the way that you finish the day is also just as important, is how we train the brain to go to sleep. If it's going to go to sleep in fear, um, you know, one of my clients said, you know, the little red dot on the, on the TV at night. In the bedroom, but she had to, she had to cover it because it reminded— she thought it was the virus because she sees that red, that red image on the news the whole time. And people with anxiety, you know, we have to really protect those people and give them some really nice structure to follow. So do some journaling, do a gratitude, do a meditation before you go to sleep and protect yourself. And then there's Plan B, which is what can we do during the day so that we're feeling like we've got a lot that we need to take in and we've got a lot we need to process and a lot that we need to accept about how our businesses were and probably will never be again. And we're going to have to change the way we do things.

Tommy: And, Shannon, you've got a couple of kids that are at home, or teens that are at home now working, or, you know, doing the schoolwork from home. For parents, it's obviously a massive shift, and maybe that time that they had all that structure and they were able to do everything they wanted to do now is in setting up, making sure that their kids are doing productive schoolwork and things like that. How have you dealt with that, and how have you felt that experience personally?

Shannah: Well, I actually think the kids think it's quite novel at the moment, like reality hasn't quite set in. You know, they have to get up, they have to still shower and have breakfast, and they have to actually go to school with their school top on. They're not allowed to be in their pajamas. So they still have to get dressed, which is another big thing for people working at home, is to actually get dressed. But, you know, we have to all work together for the first time.

Tommy: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Mm, I mean, you mentioned sort of plan B. It's no plan B, only plan A. Focus on what you want and let nothing else get in the way. Now is a very different time where plan Bs are probably quite handy. I mean, I've kind of also thought that a plan A is the one way to go as well, but we're trying to activate a different approach now. It's a, it's a different time really.

Shannah: Well, this, you know, I've been coaching for 20 years now and every client of mine, we build a plan B. I have a plan B. You know, we really do prepare conservatively for when things go wrong. And when things go wrong, we've all got plans. We're all launching forward. Whereas a lot of people that didn't invest in that time with a coach, that didn't do the life plan, the planning part, where they looked at the landscape in a different view just occasionally to make sure, you know, what if the car breaks down? What are we going to do? And we don't have that Plan B. I think that's where a lot of people are really hurting at the moment. So there is a lot of people also who, who do have a Plan B and they did save for the rainy day and they are able now to go and create. Shannon, difficult question. And that's what working with a coach—

Tommy: working with the types of people you work with, you know, leaders, CEOs, people who right now are having to make decisions and communicate in times that are really uncertain, what have you discovered to be the key to communicating as a leader in this time?

Shannah: Well, my husband's a CEO, for example, and he is the lead communicator for an entire sport, and it's about calm confidence. You know, I have to say, the AFL, it's been so impressive. It is just that calm, confident, very clear communication. And if you're in a larger organisation, that's the way to go. For people in small business, which I coach a lot of people in small business, it's really about acceptance.

Tommy: And grounding yourself again and trying to stay calm and say, "Can I look through the forest and see what could I do now to keep moving forward?" And so if you don't know the answer, if you're a leader and you just don't know the answer, how much do you think it is productive to talk about that amongst all of the confidence when we don't necessarily know, are we going to be in lockdown? Are we continuing? If we're sort of at the mercy of what we're being told by the government, but also even the broader external thing of COVID-19, how do you communicate when you actually just don't know?

Shannah: Because I think if you're a leader, you need to communicate that we're all working together to work through it. And For people that need extra support, let's try and give them that extra support that they need. People with mental health issues, let's give them the extra support that they need. So, the strong ones need to put their hand out and help lift the other ones. And I think it's about when we don't know the— I don't know the answers, nobody knows the answers, it's about what could we do today just to capture today, the best possible things that we could do today.

Josh: I mean, resilience is really being put to test in these times. Where do you think— I mean, what do you think resilience is? Because I think it became a buzzword where people weren't necessarily acting out resilience, but now is the time to shine. Where do you think you could focus and sort of build the muscle of resilience? What are the actions that you can take?

Shannah: Well, I think resilience is all about moving forward. It's not— it's about not letting yourself get paralyzed. You know, I know a lot of people who are losing their business at the moment and they keep taking a step forward. The minute that we stop and completely stop when we're in that panic situation, you know, we— that's where you don't have resilience. So every single day is, what's the one step I could take today, the one action but most importantly, how can I protect my health today? My mental health, my emotional health, my physical health, my spiritual health is— that is the pillar. That's the pillar that's going to allow you to take the steps and, and be able to move with the times. So taking the extra supplements, making sure you go for a walk, all of these things actually vital now to make great decisions.

Tommy: What have you learned about yourself in this time, Shanna?

Shannah: That's a good question. I have learnt that I'm incredibly— I've always been calm in a crisis, but in such a big crisis, I'm even calmer. So a lot of my clients will be calling me, they're frantic, they're worried, they're nervous, they're anxious, and I very easily turn it around for them. I do worry about my own business because I think coaching is possibly a luxury item where, you know, people are not going to go and run out and get a coach anymore. I think that's more for the good times, but it's actually more important now. So I have a coach myself. I cannot wait to speak to her. I cannot wait because it's two brains coming together to say, where's your plan C? Where's your plan D? And It gets my brain actually thinking past what's happening at the moment.

Josh: We spoke yesterday on the show.

Shannah: I love my space. I love my office and everyone's piling into my office, my family.

Josh: What are some new thoughts and has there been any new thoughts over the last week? Because we spoke about it yesterday, just has your mind gone somewhere that it hasn't, you know, based on never needing to? Is there anywhere for you?

Shannah: I've been waking up at 3 in the morning with so many— I paralysed my brain last week with ideas where I was lying in bed thinking of 25 new business things I could do, books I could write. It was like a whole new freeway opened up in my brain where for the whole week I was giving my clients strategies on how to move forward and I could see what their businesses go and create, or the people that have been wanting to write a screenplay, now go and write it. You know, I gave everyone these huge action plans, and then my brain just completely sparked itself. So I've got book ideas, some business ideas, and so I'm just trying to write them all down while they're there.

Tommy: It seems like— one thing that I've observed with myself is feeling a sense of agitation where when I'm speaking to friends or family and there's a misalignment between the intensity that I'm feeling in regards to what's happening and what we need to be doing and the preparation we need to take. And then maybe the contrast of that being, it's going to be all cool, you know, going outside, not really, you know, doing anything. How do you, how do you deal with the misalignments in your life where you might have a very different response to these times than a friend or family member.

Shannah: Yeah, I have that nearly on a daily basis where, you know, I think people should be really grounding themselves, kindness should be happening. You know, I'm helping old people in the supermarket. There's people next to me who are hoarding. You know, I get very agitated as well about human behaviour because I think when you have an extreme situation, extreme behaviours present. And the way that people handle a crisis situation, some people shine and some people fold. And, you know, you get to see this array of incredible reactions to what's happening, but they're all in an extreme. So I'm going extreme calm. But some people go extreme anxiety.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: And because I think Josh and I, we've, we've done a bit of the calm thing as well where I don't feel, I don't feel too unsettled about the uncertainty of the future because I know that we're all in it. Is it, I'm trying to work out whether that's like a lack of me understanding the gravity of it or it's a good strategy to be able to navigate through the uncertainty. What do you think with the calmness?

Shannah: Oh, I think that's an incredible leadership skill. Because leaders are calm. Leaders are calm in a crisis. Resilience is about being calm in a crisis. And that's where leaders step up at the end of the day. So a lot of people don't have that capability or capacity in their mind to go into a calm state in a crisis. So, you know, when my kid falls off their bike and there's blood everywhere, you know, I'm calm as a cucumber and I might react 3 days later. And I'll be the one that will be able to get them to the hospital, etc. So that's a skill that we maybe are born with, some have really trained. I've trained it really for a long time so that I can see through for people as much as possible.

Tommy: How do you mean to train these? Oh, sorry, TJ. How do you communicate or lead up? So for instance, if you're a, if you're in a position where you might be, you know, the marketing director or chief technical officer, whatever it is, and you have a feeling that you need, or a hypothesis around what you should be doing, how do you communicate to the CEO that is then making that decision? If you are in that role where you're feeling like the ball's not in your court, how can we, you know, take a little bit of calm in that?

Shannah: Well, I think this is where communication is the skill that everybody needs to start to learn, whether it be with your family at home or in the situation that you just described, is about we all need to band together to come up with the best possible solution. For each individual case and environment that we find ourselves in. And when we can communicate with kindness and calmness and put our heads together to see what the outcome is that we're trying to achieve, and the goalposts are going to keep moving, is taking it day by day but working collaboratively together to make things happen.

Josh: Well, I think this time is challenging for a lot of parents. Because as much as I am a parent, my day-to-day, or my normal existence, the previous existence, which is no longer normal, was daycare for a lot of the day. And then you're spending a lot more time with your kids. And I've noticed my irritability levels are much higher. And so it's like there's a new learning there for working at home with a kid or being around a child. A lot where you're like, oh, you can't control them because I'm not needing to do that normally. And so I think we're all in with a bit of a relearning our parenting approach.

Shannah: 100%. And I go back to that first point where in a crisis, the first part that we need to focus on is acceptance. Is, you know, we can't change that we have to work at home with our children. So it's about you going, okay, I need to accept, I can sort of grieve, second part is grieving, so I have to grieve that I can't be as productive in the same way that I was before, when I went to the office and I had my freedom and my space and I, you know, my child was in daycare or my kids were at school, now they're here. So it's that acceptance and grief that it's not gonna be like it was, and the sooner that we can get through those two little key factors, we can go into, let's shed some of the old ways and learn some new ways. So how can we operate as a family in a different way? So it's about, once you go through that process, you can look for the opportunities. Okay, what are my kids seeing here? What am I showing my kids? Because, you know, when we look at our parents and our grandparents who went through some terrible times, what were we observing as a child, or what were they observing as a child? They're saying, wow, everything's changing, everything is never the same.

Tommy: Yeah, I also think the— oh, sorry, Shanna. Obviously, teamwork is a big part of this within the family sort of structure. You've got the kids, but then you also have parents, and you have to be making sure that you're aligned and having that conversation. Your experience talking to a lot of people What's the tools to make sure that you're aligned as a family?

Shannah: Yeah, and it's going to be very uncomfortable for a lot of people. I mean, a lot of people don't want to be stuck in the house with their partner, for example, all that time. So I think it comes back to that essential skill of calm communication, where we can very clearly say what the boundaries are. This is— I think this is the best way that we're going to operate moving forward. Where are you going to sit up? Where am I going to sit up? That's why couples rarely work together, because it doesn't work. So the calm communication with some boundaries and some respect coming in is what we all need to try and learn, because we've really unlearned that. We've all just gone off and done our own thing. The world's been our oyster. We can do whatever we want. We can consume whatever we want. And this is a big stop sign to say that way of living is not on. It's too fast. It's too destructive. It's, you know, we've been drifting apart for a long time. You know, we've always said that with the introduction of this fantastic technology in the phone, that we've lost the ability to be in a relationship and as a family unit because there's 4 people sitting on the couch on their phone. And this will bring people back together because We'll have to learn to coexist in a better way.

Josh: What does community mean for you at a time like this, Shanna?

Shannah: I think it means everything. So in our street, we've started a street WhatsApp. Now I know a couple of my neighbours, but now I know all of my neighbours, and we have a— just the whole street's on a one WhatsApp group, and then we can help each other or, you know, lift someone up or or, you know, whatever it might be, communicate together as a street. And that, that hasn't been done since I was a child. But I think community is really important, and that's why I think, you know, it's great that I have a coach that I can ring once a week. My own clients will become more of a community now, which is fantastic. And, you know, following people like you guys that make you feel connected, and you're learning things, and you're exposed to the face of humans, which is fantastic.

Tommy: Shanna, how have you coped or dealt with, say, the communication within government? Obviously, like, if you're in Victoria, there was one— we're getting told one thing, and then, you know, this yesterday evening, there was sort of last night, there was the federal government speaking. How do you sort of interpret all of these different types of communication?

Shannah: Well, you can really overload yourself, and anyone with anxiety, you know, it's going to spike it through the roof. So for me personally, I just cheque in 2 or 3 times a day, and I only allow myself short periods of time because I could be watching breaking news all day, or I could have some snippets with the updates. And for me personally, that works better because I want to go and focus on what I can do. Not get paralysed by just breaking news all day and trying to process it. I prefer to do it in some chunks.

Tommy: And so what about, like you were talking about your husband sort of leading a sport, what's the sport league that he looks after?

Shannah: He's the CEO of Snow Australia, so he runs winter sport for the country. So he has to communicate with resorts, government, parents, children, coaches all over the world all the time. He's on the International Committee, so there's a big voice there. There may not be a ski season.

Tommy: And so as a partner, when you're having those big, really big conversations, if people are seeing their partners in the sort of the grind of trying to work all of this stuff out, what do you do personally to sort of bring some calm amongst it all?

Shannah: Well, we have a Kennedy COVID list, which is these are all the things that we could be doing around the house, and I keep extracting him occasionally and say, right, we're going for a walk, or right, we're going to clean out this cupboard, and it's the most grounding thing for him to say, okay, I need to stop thinking about it. I need to let my brain digest all of the things that are happening and what I need to do. The brain needs a break, basically. So when we have little projects running on the side that we can take ourselves out from, it gives the brain the pause. It's a bit like running the marathon and stopping at the drink station. I become the drink station where, let's just stop for a minute and let's go for a walk around the block, or let's go outside and do a 20-minute workout. And it's It's been really, it's been really, how do we get it through in the healthiest possible way mentally?

Josh: How do you find alignment with others? I think you can look at your own values and needs and wants, but then how do you align those with people around you?

Shannah: Well, as I said, everyone's gonna react in a heightened, So the drama people become more dramatic, the anxiety, anxious people become even more anxious, the calm people will go about and do whatever they can to, to make the day work. So I think it's about, for some people you need to maybe distance yourself from because they're adding to the toxic load. And for some people you're going to gravitate maybe towards some new people who are probably more in alignment with yourself.

Tommy: Have you noticed, Shanna, that your, your communication in regards to the people that you reach out to has changed? For me, I've noticed that people that I had, you know, the common interest of the grind and the work and all that sort of thing, once that bubble has been burst, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I don't know what to talk about. Has that changed for you?

Shannah: Um, a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Not much because I think with the way that I structure my life is I love the grind and I love the fast-paced world, but the fast-paced world has always been dangerous for me because I have chronic fatigue. So I've always had to be very grounded because I can get swept up in my overachievement A-type personality achievement junkie. And I've always had to sort of pat her down a little bit and, you know, put the reins on a tiny bit because it takes my health away. I go into burnout. And there's a lot of people out there who are in burnout that this is a little bit of a blessing that they will look back on to say, we've been given this big stop sign. Stop. Slow down a little bit. Things are being taken away from us. So because we've got the stop sign, for a lot of people that have burnout and are experiencing just before this the crisis of my body's not keeping up, it is a chance for everything to take the breath. Mother Nature is taking a breath. We can take the breath as well. And even taking away all the kids' sport, you know, I'm not running around like crazy on the weekend going to 4 footy games and a basketball game. It's like, ah, it's like a breath, you know. So for me, in a way, it's a little bit of a relief that we haven't got the same responsibilities. For people who are really suffering with their business, we're all going to suffer in our businesses and the income is not going to be there. It's a chance to go, oh, we need to just stop the way that we're consuming as well.

Josh: Well, I think ambitious people or people who identify as being ambitious it's probably a big change for them. Where do you think ambition fits in a time like now?

Shannah: It's a great, great question because, you know, I work with ambitious people. I am a very ambitious person. I do it in a healthy manner though. But the really ambitious people who hang their hat on achievement, doing more, making more money, creating a bigger business, it actually is quite a good thing for them because it's not sustainable anyway in the long run, and they will have to learn to be a little bit more human because we're not machines. A lot of people were turning into machines. They couldn't have relationships, their health was suffering, they were taking cocaine to go to work. I think there is a chance— That's the only way I got up, you know. Yeah, it's a chance for the human body to to reset a little bit as well.

Tommy: Shanna, I've got your book, The Life Plan, behind me. I would be interested in what— if we were to turn to one page in this time right now, what's the one page someone was to look at the book and go through it and create a little bit of sort of that first step in planning everything out? What page would you recommend?

Shannah: Yeah, I would start with the first two chapters and I would go to values. You know, I— because majority of people don't know their values. When the world is your oyster, you think, I don't really need to know them because I'm just on my achievement role and I can go and create. And it's a little bit like going back to the soil now and looking in the soil and saying, okay, the weather's changed, I'm going to cheque the soil. Yeah, like Mason with all his pots, go and cheque the soil.

Josh: Yeah, there's worms in there for sure.

Tommy: He's got a worm farm as well.

Shannah: Oh, fantastic! So it's about going back to the roots now and re-solidifying what you want to grow moving forward is the quality of time and preparation that you put into maybe letting the soil rest and maybe now going into what are my values, what am I about, who am I without my job. You know, we talked about that in our last session and our last interview together is who are you without your job and a lot of people now are going to find themselves actually in that position. It is the time to build yourself as the person that you are the business. And your business or your career is actually what you go and do. But you are the business.

Tommy: It feels like status is interesting as well. Because with everything that's going on right now, it feels like it's the sort of ultimate status shift. We're all sort of dealing with this together. And the people who had all the answers don't necessarily have the answers. Right now. What is your view and perspective on status, and do you think that we're going to walk away where maybe what we believe to be important to us changes?

Shannah: 100%. Your platinum status doesn't really matter at the moment, does it? It's not going to help you.

Tommy: So true. I was actually thinking about that. I'm so glad that I didn't— I was I just lost my Virgin Platinum. I went down to Gold and I was going to like do the whole flying around so I could try and get my points. Those points ain't worth shit right now. So I'm very glad I didn't do that.

Shannah: Sorry. Yeah, no, no, no, exactly. Exactly. So the status that you had, whether it be your job title, for example, or your Platinum, or, you know, your amazing car that's going to have to be sold or whatever. It's going to reground people and just level everything up a little bit again because those things don't mean anything anymore. The things that mean something now are the relationships, your friendships, your hobbies, your ability to communicate, your ability to look in the mirror and like what you see and who you are. Those are the things in the beginning of the Life Plan that we all address as starting your Plan B, which is building yourself back up. As a human being. And now, you know, we're going to get a little bit of that opportunity to work on ourselves, which I think is absolutely fabulous.

Josh: Well, I think we've been drowning out the noise of our mind with work and, you know, external. And now it's a time where we're left with nothing but our mind in our own house and maybe a bit of Netflix and some Nespresso pods. But other than that, it is, yeah, it's a time to sort of look in and face that stuff, which is at a, at a cultural level, like, that is powerful if we all can get through it and look at it and go in and sort of, and navigate those times. So yeah, meditation has never been more important right now.

Shannah: It's so powerful, but, but also so confronting because if you haven't done that for a very long time We're going to look in the mirror and not even know who we're looking back at. We would have, you know, we haven't really done that work on the inside for a very long time. But the inside is our powerhouse. That's the most important thing is to be able to look in the mirror and know your values, know who you are, be grounded in yourself, be kind, be grateful for the things that we do have. That takes a lot of work. And for a lot of people that have been on that treadmill of life and on their platinum status and, you know, consuming crazily and everything's great and I'll do whatever I want, it's a time to maybe reset all of that attitude that society has and go back to the source, which is yourself. From the first breath that you take in life to, you know, your last breath in life. You're actually with yourself 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Tommy: Talking about the last breath of your life, one thing that I guess I haven't even started to reconcile yet, but will become more and more of a conversation, is COVID-19 is going to kill a bunch of people. There's going to be a bunch of deaths. And whilst it might not be you know, on the younger side of things, our family members, grandparents, parents. Yeah. There's going to be a heap of friends. If we're not directly impacted by deaths, there will be friends who have parents or loved ones that pass away. What is your perspective in this time around things like death and mourning? And reconciling relationships that you know in the back of your mind, hey, they're a type— like, based on everything that we know, this person is a potential, like, a high-risk person?

Shannah: I don't know the answer to that one. You know, I worry about my parents who are in their 80s. My mum has a chronic lung condition as it is, and I know that if she got it, that she wouldn't survive it. So it is frightening. And what we do is, what can we do as a family to protect her? You know, not see her, you know, deliver some things and put them on the front doorstep for her so she doesn't have to go out. What can we do to protect those beautiful people in our lives. Or for some of them it might be, how do I repair that relationship? Because I actually think now, I think it does mean something to me. And I was so busy before on my treadmill and in my status that I forgot that it is a really nice time, if possible, to maybe mend a few bridges and maybe reach out and remember what was most important to, to us as human beings, which is our communities and our families. I do think it's going to be a very stressful time for people who are in a violent situation. It's going to be heightened. Like I said before, everything's going to be heightened. So if you don't feel safe at home, which some children don't feel safe at home, and now they have to be home. There is a lot of destruction that's going to happen as well.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I just felt like calling my mum more. I speak to her quite a bit, but it's one of those things. It is a good time to just get on the phone and speak to people and just chat.

Tommy: It's nice.

Shannah: FaceTime.

Josh: You're right. FaceTime. I saw my brother yesterday and I did it through the window. Didn't let him touch my son. Didn't let him put his hand in. What a weird thing to ever— I never would have thought in my life that that would be something that I would be saying, you know, saying that.

Shannah: We really haven't experienced anything like this in our generation, you know, and the generations before have all experienced a dreadful catastrophe or war or some major crisis, but we haven't. This is really the first one that's really hitting us personally. And individually, where we do have worry for our future and for our— not future for my health, but for the future of my parents' health. And also our businesses might, you know, have no money for quite a while, but then they might pick up. But there's a lot of people who will lose their business and never recover. So we're going to witness that and see that for the first time. And I think it's about supporting each other and helping each other and being kind and keeping our community going, whether it is FaceTiming, you know. A lot of grandparents won't see their beautiful little grandkids. They won't be able to touch them. So technology will come into play where we can do FaceTime and make those grandparents happy and bring them a smile. My mum was at every sporting match my kids ever played. She's sport obsessed. And she said, "I'm gonna really miss that I can't see them every weekend." And they're teenagers, and that's that's how she connects with them, through sport. And, or they'll ring each other halfway through footy matches, and that won't happen anymore. So FaceTime's gonna be really important for those sort of people to feel like they're still connected with their own families.

Tommy: How far ahead are you looking?

Shannah: 6 months to a year.

Tommy: Mm-hmm. And when you look at that 6 months, What does the change look like? Obviously, that 6 months is what a lot of people are talking about in regards to preparing for that time. In Australia, we're at the stage 1 where, you know, pubs and cafes have closed outside of takeaway and delivery. But are you preparing for the moment when we are in complete lockdown?

Shannah: Yes, and I also think that in 6 months not everyone's going to get on a plane and go to a conference, which is my speaking career, you know, speaking at big conferences. That might take 2 years or 3 years to recover as a speaker, your career, because you're not going to be flying people all over the world straight away. It's going to take quite a long time. So I think the speaking industry will change a lot. I think the coaching will change, but for me it's, you know, with all of the knowledge that we have, what can we do to support people? What products can we create that actually lift people with the skills that we have as resilient, calm, confident leaders? We want to be passing those skills on if you are a calm, confident person to the ones that don't survive so well or don't have the resilience, whose anxiety goes through the roof. We need to We need to upskill now.

Josh: I think I've spoken to a few people and I've asked the question of, if you cease working, how long can you survive for? And a lot of, a lot of the answer is 4 weeks to 2 months max. And I feel like living in a world where most people, it's probably 4 weeks and under, that seems like a, not a way forward in humanity, or at least, you know, that we can be living in where if all goes to shit, we can't even survive more than 4 weeks. It seems like something has to give and there has to be some new approach. I mean, for us, it's a couple of months if we have zero, you know, no more work. And so, and I almost, I don't even freak out about that because at that point I go, I think the government are going to have to step in and intervene because there's people in much worse situations. You know, in your business as a coach, there's a lot of coaches now in the industry. What do you think the sort of way forward from a business perspective, maybe give us a few insights on the ideas you've had.

Shannah: Well, I'll be doing a lot of writing, that's for sure. You know, the way that my coaching is structured might change. You know, for me personally, I'm I might start up, you know, 20-minute coaching sessions where we just do some serious planning and we're not going to delve so deeply into the future where it's actually going to be planning, you know, the next month, not the next 5 years. We're going to plan the next month until things ease off a bit. And I don't know the time limit of that. Nobody does. So I think it's about the ability to be adaptable the ability to be agile. When people are hurting, we hope that we'll all step up and help those that are hurting or those that can't afford things, that we all can be pitching in as well. So I think your community and your ability to adapt is going to be really important. And they always say adaptability is the key to success. And the world is saying, can you adapt? Can you change the way that you do things? Because the way that you were doing things before or is not sustainable anymore.

Tommy: Shanna, what do you do if, say, you've got a business, you reach out to your clients every single day, you know, you've got your list that you're going through. How do you be sensitive in this time when reaching out to clients?

Shannah: Well, you have to listen. You have to listen more than speak. And I think maybe some of those calls I might not even hardly speak. Because they need to be heard. People need to be heard. They need their pain to get out. They need to grieve. So for some people it is planning how to move forward. For some people it is going through a grief process. So as a coach, you need to be— it's all about the client. It's got nothing to do with you. So when we're speaking to different clients, it's actually about adapting to what they need in that moment and being the best possible support solution for them.

Tommy: Is new clients a possibility? Like, can you actually, you know, today, uh, you know, Monday the, you know, the 23rd, uh, normally you would go and find new clients or you'd be doing that, that type of work. Are you just sort of working with your existing clients just to see things through, or is there a way of starting the conversation, the introduction, and trying to help people?

Shannah: I'm going to work with existing clients, but I think it's far too early to be looking for business because we don't know what the next step might be, and I think that would be really insensitive. I might actually, if I've got nothing to do, offer free coaching and use my time to do good rather than— or contra-coaching, you know, someone can do me some brochures and I'll coach them So I think that I will change just the way that I'm doing things at the moment, but I certainly think it's too early for people to be going out and pitching for business at the moment. I think it's about being really sensitive and, you know, some people are really in dire straits and they need a coach, you know, we might be able to come to some great arrangement where they can do something for me and I'll do something for them, or it might be some really quick, you know, free sessions. I think that's really important that we all lift and we all pitch in and we all help.

Josh: I mean, it's a new look at sales because traditional sales don't take no. There's no no. It's always a yes. Like, I mean, that has just been flipped. It's flipped on its head because it's never more— it's never been more about what can I help you with without thinking about the sell. And so even for our business, it's just relooking at that.

Tommy: I was trying to put the needs of— which I think is a good correction that's happening at the moment, which is it's focusing the needs to the clients and how can we help, where can we actually add value, and then being able to tap into, oh, this is a— right here I'm trying to seek a revenue need at our end. Which I find is where it becomes unproductive in this time.

Shannah: Oh yes, yes, I think this is the time for humanity to rise up and we can help each other and we've all got these incredible skills. Why don't we trade skills? You know, why don't we have a look at, well, you're really good at web and I'm really good at planning and let's do some really great plans for you that make you a little bit motivated and inspired for your future, but let's also 'Can we also plan past this when the world is up and running again? What would you like the picture to be?' And somebody could say, 'Well, I'm really good at doing a showreel for you, you know, so I could be cutting that together in my home, but you could be helping me really think differently and plan with your skill set.' So I think we could even enter the stage of— which, you know, I'm really open to— we should be trading skills, we should be offering some of our services for for free instead of sitting in the panic.

Tommy: Yeah, definitely.

Shannah: You'll be creating some really amazing communities and networks through just giving that when things do go back, you might have created a whole new pod of people, which is important.

Tommy: What about people that have spent the last, you know, 20 years being an employee and they get made redundant, or with all the changes that are happening, there's just no job for them anymore? And then they're not used to any idea of sales or looking for a job, what do you think the first week should look like for someone in that position?

Shannah: As I said in the beginning, the first part is acceptance and grief. And we do need to allow ourselves a little bit of time and not panic. Oh my gosh, I have to go and do something. We do need to for a financial reason, but that's the only reason, because it is a time to say, oh, you know, I did work at that company for 15 years and I've been made redundant. Oh, I actually need to take a little breath and think about what fire do I— I don't want to jump into the same kind of fire. Maybe it's a time to do an online course. Maybe it's time for me to reassess who I am and what's going to be more suitable for me moving forward, because a lot of people are burnt out. They've been on the treadmill, but it wasn't their choice. Their hands being forced in some way.

Josh: I love that saying, you were climbing the ladder but it was on the wrong wall.

Shannah: Yeah, and for a lot of people it really was on the wrong wall and it's helped them make a decision and they might have a short suffering window but in a year's time if they've done the work on themselves they might be looking at something completely different to go into.

Josh: I think the common response when you ask most people, "How you going?" is like, "Yeah, good, mate." It's, you know, "All right." It's never entering— I think we're going to see a lot more people saying, "I'm no fucking good," or, "I'm not," you know, just honesty and just we're all in it. And so I think—

Shannah: I hope they do say that and get it out and allow people to help them.

Tommy: Or even think about the finance stuff. Like, I feel like it's been so taboo to talk about the difficulties within business. And what I hope is that through this correction we can start being more honest. It seems like people can see the writing on the wall, so their hands are being forced into talking about, talking about, hey, this, this isn't good for my business.

Shannah: No, and there's a lot of businesses out there which we think are really good, and they look good on Instagram, and they look good on their web page, but they're actually not a good business. They don't make any money, they're not progressive, they're stuck, they're stuck businesses who are just going from day to day. But it doesn't look like that from the outside. So, you know, reality will hit and force the hand of a lot of people.

Josh: One last question, sort of towards the end. How are you going? How's your toilet paper situation? Are you okay?

Shannah: I'm okay, just, because I I have to say I haven't stocked up on anything.

Tommy: Yeah.

Shannah: I haven't got anything different in my house than what would normally be in my house. So I think we will run out of things, but I've got my street WhatsApp and maybe when my dad does a shop one day at 7 AM, he can get me some. But I haven't, you know, I was at the bakery the other day and I bought 3 rolls for my kids. For their lunch, 3 rolls. And the lady next to me was buying 20 pies, 20 sausage rolls, 15 croissants, 6 loaves of bread because she said, "I've got a freezer, you know, I can stock up." And I was like, well, that means people like me who just go and buy what we need aren't going to have anything or much choice.

Tommy: I hope you have her on the WhatsApp so you can at least ask for the pies and then you don't have to pay for them potentially. Maybe you can swap.

Shannah: Exactly.

Tommy: You can start—

Shannah: I'm really not a fan of frozen food. But, you know, the opportunity here is also it's a really great time to read. You know, once we get past this Netflix excitement that we've got a bit of extra time to watch Netflix, it really is a great time to go back and maybe try and read 10 pages of a book a day instead of your commute time, to upskill and maybe read some of these books that we've always wanted to read or go into a storey that's taking you away from the news, which is a feel-good type of book, or you go into something where I'm going to retrain my brain and learn some new skills. 10 pages a day, you know.

Tommy: I like it. Shannen, a final piece of advice or sort of a thought that you could leave the audience on?

Shannah: I think you need a daily plan. I really think if you're going through an ever-changing environment, which is going to change tomorrow and next week and in 2 weeks' time we might be in a completely different situation, is if you write yourself your little daily plan that makes you feel like you're doing something and in a movement situation, not in a paralysed situation, Okay, I'll tick off I've gone for my walk, I'm gonna tick off I've done my meditation, I'm gonna tick off this is what I could do or could clean out or tidy up the back end of your business, you know. This is the time to go back into all your systems and maybe have a look at them and recreate them. And I'm going through all my templates and I'm actually got a lovely young girl who's lost her job and she's, she's, I'm gonna pay her actually and She's going to redo them all with new logos and things for me. It's a time to maybe have a look at the way that we do things, reinvent some things. But if you have that daily written down on a piece of paper to-do list, your brain has a map. When our brain has a map, it can help with how we're going to process all of that over-information that we're being sent.

Josh: I love it.

Tommy: Perfect. Just before we go, we've had a bunch of people on YouTube that are watching live. Steve says that's a great point about being able to do some free work or favours and keep the relationships going. Rob's joining us from London. He says, "Great show today, very interesting." Dr. K, who's doing great work actually on the East Coast in the US, says, "Agreed. Thanks for keeping the podcast going every day." Shanna, thanks so much for, in a time where things are changing, being agile enough to make this work and and get the technology right so we could do it remotely because we initially planned to do it in person. So thanks for that.

Shannah: Thank you very much for having me. I do have a book out there, it's called Chaos to Calm, which you can get online, and this is the book for today because it's actually a book that goes through 16 life skills, and they're the skills that we want for the long term anyway, that we We could be investing in now. And it's a summary book of the science behind each skill, how to, why you would do it, and a list of positive affirmations to retrain your brain each night as well, which you can get on an audiobook, or you can download it as a soft copy, or you can order one online and get it delivered.

Josh: I mean, written in 2017, but more— never more relevant in 2020.

Shannah: Yes, that's right.

Tommy: And I think the other thing too is it can be very tempting just to lean into the chaos in regards to what we're consuming. And I know that I've done a lot of that where it's just listening to the alarmist stuff just because it's— I don't know why I'm drawn to that.

Shannah: It's addictive.

Tommy: Yeah. But I think there's just so much in actually doing— I think it's like the junk food, right? We enjoy it in the moment, but we feel shit after it. And I can definitely to that, given my— we've banned lollies at the house after a whole packet of Allen's and Natural Confectionery gone.

Josh: You feel something, it's heightened response. And so that's the food, you know, stimulated highly. And so that's what hearing Trump, you know, deliver some sort of stupidity around something really serious is like, I need more, I need more.

Tommy: And so I think that it makes so much sense.

Shannah: You buy into it all, don't you? It's quite addictive. And And because we're wired for fear to survive, you know, we're looking at, ah, what snippet is going to help me survive here? And it becomes really addictive, but it's really counterproductive. It is exactly like the, you know, let's have more coffee and wake up more, you know, and these side effects are really dangerous. And the side effects of over-consuming the news bulletins is actually really dangerous and it paralyses us. So that we can't move forward.

Josh: Yeah, I'm all about that fire pit life. I bought a fire pit yesterday, Shanna, and my son woke up this morning and he said, "I wanna build a fire." So we built one, haven't lit it yet, but that's for later on today.

Shannah: Oh, beautiful, beautiful. I've got my little workout, we've set up a little workout station out the back. And I said to the kids, you know, in between classes, you know, go and do 20 pushups. And I did order some HelloFresh because I haven't done any hoarding. So now my kids, I'm teaching my kids to cook.

Tommy: Oh, great.

Shannah: It's got instructions.

Tommy: I think definitely there's so much that we can take from these times. And thanks, Shanna, for joining us. It's The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you know of someone that you think we should have on the show that can speak to what we're experiencing right now, please email us.. You can also watch us live. We're live streaming all of these now so that we can, you know, be a little bit of something for you to watch throughout your day to break it up. And you can do that at youtube.com/thedailytalkshow. We're on Instagram and also on all the podcast apps as well. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys. Have a good one.

Shannah: See ya.