Jo Stanley On Being Present

Jo: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 619.

Tommy: Special guest in the studio, Jo Stanley. Welcome.

Josh: 619, the best number of them all.

Jo: Obviously, I love 619.

Josh: Would you clap guests in when you did radio? Was that a thing?

Jo: Ah, no. Well, should I have?

Tommy: I used to think about it every time in the morning when you were doing it.

Jo: I don't know. I think that you're really aware. So, you know, you do breakfast radio for the people who are in their cars and in their lounges and in their showers. And so I suppose you're just aware that you're making it more intimate than that, perhaps.

Josh: Okay, so should we stop clapping?

Tommy: How does it feel as a guest? We're getting quite good at this.

Josh: How does it feel?

Jo: Well, I always feel like I have to clap as well.

Tommy: You join in on the clapping?

Jo: Yeah, because it's awkward to stand there, sit there by yourself, just letting people applaud you.

Josh: I think that's all right. Wait, so do you sing happy birthday when it's your birthday?

Jo: No, no, but I was recently at a party where the birthday girl sang happy birthday with everybody else and I was like, that's odd. That's kind of weird.

Tommy: Children do that. I think my son, actually no, my son was just waiting to open his, blow out the candles and get the cake.

Jo: How old's your son?

Tommy: He's 3, turned 3 2 weeks ago, Valentine's Day.

Josh: There was nearly a punch on with the candles situation.

Tommy: It's so annoying. There's always one kid that comes out of nowhere and blows one out.

Josh: Oh, back off.

Tommy: I was at the 40th over the weekend and I said to my brother, watch this little shit blow out the candle. And there was 4 candles. You can't get 40 under the thing, too many. And sure enough, got it.

Jo: And you know, because that now means you have child saliva on your cake.

Tommy: Oh, I got spat on. That's what happened. Yes.

Jo: Children are disgusting.

Josh: We should actually have water pistol snipers on standby just spraying to like do attacks. Nerf guns.

Jo: Yeah. Although you'd hope that a 40-year-old would be a little more gracious. About the candles being, you know, let the child do it.

Tommy: Depends how many drinks you've had, mate. It was a cat fight.

Josh: Uh, you were talking about consciousness and you're saying that you're really into being conscious nowadays. Was there a time where you were unconscious in life, do you think?

Jo: Hmm, uh, I think we all are when we're young because we're too busy having fun. Although, well, that's a huge generalization. I reckon that you millennials are way more ready to be aware of their impact on the world and also to have a spiritual life to them than perhaps I was. I mean, I'm 47, right? So, oh, really old. And when I was in my 20s in the '90s, it just wasn't a thing that you spoke about. You know, it wasn't kind of— there was no Russell Brand making meditation cool, you know, and there was no— well, not that I found anyway. I mean, I was too busy partying. I get back to my first point. And then for me, I suppose I had a few things go on. I had a lot of anxiety. I was really sad a lot of the time. Went to therapy, still in therapy.

Tommy: Was this during your time at Fox?

Jo: Yeah. So I guess sort of from about 30 onwards, I realised that I was very sad a lot and didn't like being that person. So I went to therapy and then she introduced me to mindfulness and meditation as a way of sleeping. And then gradually, bit by bit, I sort of, you know, you do your reading and you discover people. For me, it was Eckhart Tolle and Deepak Chopra and various Brené Brown and all these people that sort of start putting little pieces of puzzles together and you go, oh, hang on a second. A, I don't have to feel like this. And B, I can be nicer to be around. And also, if you do that, then bit by bit you're impacting other people who are doing it. And then hopefully just— I think compassion and consciousness will save the world.

Tommy: I mean, you sort of out of that brekkie radio period. So it's like How much do you think was contributed from the 338 hours? Yeah, just the hours.

Jo: A huge amount. Yeah, I mean, sleep deprivation will make you depressed 100%. And I just think, I think about people who are police officers and ambos and nurses and doctors and, you know, people who do shift work all the time. I'm genuinely concerned for them. Yeah, well, it's not sustainable.

Tommy: Well, you end up living in your head, right? Like, it's the fatigue, like these are all sensations that you're feeling in your body and it can drive you a bit insular. Like if you're tired, you kind of like don't, can't be bothered speaking to people and your head's just churning with thought.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And so it can sort of be the spiral where you're just like, it's like you're in a computer game and you're, you know, looking out. I think there's a distinction between like the being conscious or, you know, are you conscious versus the consciousness as the thing we know it as, as the world we exist in.

Josh: Consciousness is the construct.

Tommy: Yeah. The thing that we're all experiencing. And so, yes. And so it is interesting though, like the, you know, back then, I don't know if it's the access to information we have now, the podcast that, you know, everyone had to read a book if you wanted to learn about consciousness or mindfulness. But now it's like on TV, there's Russell Brand's people are threading it into comedy. Did you start threading any of the little nuggets you were learning about into breakfast radio?

Jo: I did enjoy making fun of myself about the fact I was in therapy because I just, I mean, essentially, and I've just gone back to therapy and I think it's because I'm not on breakfast radio anymore because you used to have 3 hours to talk about yourself every day.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: Now I only have, I have to pay someone to sit in the room for 45 minutes.

Josh: Same person? Or do you like, is it like a hairdresser? Like If you've left it too long, can you go back?

Jo: This is my fourth therapist over 15 years.

Josh: Were you seeking something different this last time around?

Jo: Perhaps I broke them.

Josh: I don't know.

Jo: Yeah, I think I was seeking something different. And yeah, it's lots of different practical things. A lot of people, I tell you what, therapists are hard to get into these days. People really like going to therapy and they're all booked out.

Josh: Like the Apple Store.

Tommy: I can't get into the woman till March. It's just, it was very, it's a convenient place to go. And so I spoke to her, but she's like, I've got nothing until March. But she said it so kindly because she's trying to say, like, if that's too long to wait, how you do something else.

Jo: How much in trouble are you?

Tommy: And I was like, no, look, I think I'll be fine. I'll see you in March. Just call me.

Jo: That's right. But yeah, I mean, therapists are like, you can't get a good colorist. They're booked out, you know.

Josh: And it's like going to the Supreme store, you know, it's like line up for days.

Jo: Yeah, it's true. It's true. But so I think for me, radio it's a creative endeavor. And with every creative endeavor, you are in your head anyway, aren't you? When you, when you're creating content or whatever you might be doing on any platform, you're thinking a lot and you maybe have a propensity to be a churner, which I definitely am.

Tommy: Are you a churner? What do you mean?

Jo: Mentally churning all the time?

Tommy: Yeah. And I think it's cathartic to speak every day like what we do. I've found times where we've had a break off. And I do go a bit more internal.

Jo: Josh, are you a churner?

Josh: Yeah, very much so.

Tommy: He's a real churner.

Josh: Tommy hates it.

Jo: I can tell, you've got a churning energy about you.

Josh: It's actually, no, it's the Mercury, it's the whole retrograde stuff that's happening.

Tommy: It's always in retrograde.

Jo: Oh, okay.

Josh: Yeah.

Jo: I don't really ever understand what that means.

Josh: I just, I only discovered it the other day.

Tommy: Through meme culture, because everyone's memeing about it.

Josh: What does it mean? What, you don't know off the top of your head?

Mason: I have no idea.

Tommy: So, I don't know what it means, but it's something to do with—

Josh: Uranus is going faster than it normally does.

Jo: Yeah. Yes.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: I had a curry the other night. You've got no idea.

Josh: But I think if this was radio, we'd be going to a song. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: Come on.

Josh: What is it, Serbs? Is there an easy explanation?

Mason: The motion of a planet in the direction opposite to that of other bodies within its system.

Josh: Yeah. So, anyway, people are saying that—

Mason: Yeah.

Jo: That's the emotion.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Apparently, that's why. People are anxious at the moment, but the, um, no, but I do overthink. Tommy's picked up on it. I always say, uh, I'd prefer to overthink than underthink, but it does— it doesn't really help the mental side.

Jo: Even just in saying that, you've overthought it.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: And then if you, if you jump into the meditation space, it's like it's actually to drop it, try and try at least focus it.

Jo: Yeah.

Tommy: So rather than sort of the spiral, the, the churn It's to come in and focus on something so that you're anchoring your thought.

Jo: Well, you just, you notice it, you notice the thought and you go, oh, there it is again, and then let it pass through. But see, so for me, consciousness is about present moment awareness. And that to me was like, oh my gosh, it was, it was just a, it was like someone gave me a magic key and I opened a door. And when that door opened, choirs and gold and light and just, you know, the gift that it was. To understand that all we have is this moment now. And all of that in the past that made me sad, who cares? I just spat on myself. And all this stuff in the future that you worry about hasn't even happened. So it doesn't exist. It doesn't matter. Right now is all that matters. And if you're able through meditation to really master breath, for me now, it's a daily practice, a minute-by-minute practice. And it's joyous because it's so freeing and the churning doesn't happen, Josh.

Josh: Really? I was churning hard yesterday because I went and had a massage. Did you? And I never do that. That. I just don't like that.

Jo: Oh my gosh, I hate massages too.

Josh: I just hate the process of like what— and sure enough, I fucked it up. She said she was going to get more towels, but I thought she'd said she'd finished, so I started going and putting my clothes on.

Tommy: So what did she do? Would she go back in?

Jo: Um, the only person I've ever met who fucked up a massage, like just, just couldn't get the rules right. And then, so what?

Josh: I just don't want to be— I don't want to do anything wrong. And then she was telling me I thought she said to turn over, but I wasn't sure, so I stayed there. She said it again. It was a fucking nightmare. Well, they just assumed that I— even though I said I've never been to it before.

Jo: Hang on, you've never had a massage?

Josh: I've never gone to Vigorous Thai on Smith Street.

Jo: That sounds scary.

Josh: It's a legitimate establishment.

Tommy: Yeah, thanks for clarifying.

Josh: And so, no, they're very good. It's one of those ones though that if you pay cash, it's a bit cheaper, which is good.

Jo: I see where it's going to end up. He's at 3.

Josh: No, so it was all fine, but he really was finished halfway through.

Tommy: Suicide.

Josh: I was a suicide. Beyoncé. No, but it did sort of— they just assumed I knew everything. Like, I was just lucky that I knew that my head went at the whole section because the way they had it set up, they had a pillow at the other end. I was like, fuck, if I'd been to no massages before You put your head at the pillow. I think to elevate your leg maybe just a tad. But they put, they put a bouquet of bouquet bouquet bouquet.

Jo: I'd say bow, but whatever.

Josh: Bouquet flowers at the end. And so I'm like, do I now, do I move that? Do I leave? There was a lot of issues.

Jo: It sounds like they're romancing you.

Josh: Yeah, it did have that rose petals with some nice scent.

Tommy: I think it was like that.

Josh: It's an in-between where it's like my mate had sold it in as it's like, oh, it's sort of a, it's decent pricing, but it's like a little bit more, it's a bit nicer. And they did have aircon.

Jo: Look, I really am not a big fan of massages, partly because of what you're talking about there, Josh, in that you need to know the rules, like, you know, that particular establishment and how they work. And they do differ. And you can't, it's awkward having someone you don't know in that space with you and you're like, oh, if I get it wrong, you know, they might see me in the Nikki Noonan or whatever. So that part. And also, I don't understand what's joyous about having a person you don't know rub oil all over you. Yeah, that's gross to me.

Josh: Well, I was doing it to try and get out of—

Jo: I had a bit of neck pain, but I'd go to an osteo for that.

Josh: Yeah, I'm thinking I might just go back to the osteo.

Tommy: How do you feel though today?

Josh: I feel okay. I definitely feel my body more like I feel like because they've released tension, other things are hurting, but I feel overall better. But the thing was, like, Bree knows what I'm like with this stuff. So she was like, she's like, oh, do you want me to come in? I'm like, you're not coming in.

Jo: Oh, that would be so weird to watch someone get a massage.

Josh: It's really boring. But then she said, I said, which one do I like? We're looking at the pamphlet. We got there early. It opened at 11. I was there at 10:45, just pacing out the front. And then we found the one that's like, I'm going deep tissue. First thing when I walked in on my own, they're like, oh, now do you want to, do you want a foot massage for an extra $10? Like they were trying to upsell me. So anyway.

Jo: But that's normal.

Josh: No, but well, the thing is that I would have assumed that a whole body deep tissue would have included feet. They don't touch your feet.

Jo: Yeah, I think that's normal.

Josh: Yeah, they were actually very good vigorous Thai massages.

Jo: Look, I'm— if I had some aches and pains and I wanted a proper massage, I'd go to Vigorous Thai.

Josh: Can we get that as a bit? Maybe I could get like one, one day.

Tommy: Maybe they'll throw in a foot massage. Exactly.

Josh: But then I have the problem of then if they then knew who I was, like, if they— if we cut this up, I could actually never go there again anyway. So anyway, you just overthought that. Yeah, potentially.

Jo: Yeah, you need to understand present moment awareness.

Josh: What do you like with, uh, going to sleep? Do you go to sleep quickly?

Jo: No, terrible, terrible sleeper. Some nights— this is weird— some nights I'll literally not shut my eyes for the entire night. Like, we'll not have one minute sleep.

Josh: Oh, that's not good.

Jo: It's terrible. What are you doing? Just lying there. I don't know, just awake, and it feels like it's midday. It's like I'm— and then I, I don't know, this is not that interesting for people listening, I'm imagining. But yeah, I just— my story, um, again, insomnia is a huge— like, I feel like sleeplessness is, is a, an epidemic in our society.

Tommy: Do you actually have insomnia?

Josh: Well, if you're up all night, that sounds like it, doesn't it?

Jo: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: I mean, I mean, we can Google stuff and self-diagnose, but it's more if you'd been to a doctor and they say, have you have insomnia?

Jo: Well, is it a thing that you get diagnosed?

Tommy: I don't know, I thought it was.

Josh: I think you go to a whole— 97's been stressed at the moment because he's got a new device which—

Tommy: Oh, you got it on?

Josh: Which tracks his sleep.

Jo: Listen. They seem to call you 97. I don't know why.

Josh: He got a 97 interscore.

Jo: He's smart.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And Tommy didn't finish school and I got a 46.

Tommy: All right, well, I'm so old that that's not how our scoring went.

Jo: So how about that? I got 301, whatever that means. Anyway, 97. I'm going to tell you, that is just misery on your wrist because we're not supposed to be constantly in our head checking ourselves. Be in your present moment awareness, be in your body, be in your you know, the senses around you and your breath.

Josh: I don't feel like that.

Mason: I mean, the last 3 nights I've had horrendous sleeps because you've been thinking about your watch. Yeah, and because you go cheque it as soon as you wake up in the morning and look at how many hours sleep you got. How's your heart rate right now? Yeah, give me a second.

Tommy: So how much do you pay for that per month?

Mason: Uh, $24.

Jo: $24 for what purpose? What else do you get from it?

Mason: It also does, um, The washing. No, it also does exercise, so I use it to track that.

Jo: Yeah, that makes sense. But then for the rest of the time, like, you can't exercise— you're not, I'm assuming, exercising all day. So let's say that's an hour every day, hour and a half tops if you're crazy fit. What do you— why for the rest of it do you need that monitoring?

Mason: It also, it also, um, I mean, it's meant to track your heart rate throughout the day.

Jo: Yeah, but why do you have a pacemaker? Like, why do you need that?

Mason: No, it's, it's like a, it's, it's like a strain and recovery thing, so it measures how much strain or stress your body's been and under throughout the day. And so based on that, it tells you how much recovery you need and gives you tips on it.

Josh: And working on this show, it's quite a lot of sleep.

Jo: I don't even understand what that means, how much recovery you need from what?

Josh: He goes to the sauna and shit. He's very, he's got it really dialled in.

Mason: I mean, I can tell. I reckon 85 at the moment.

Josh: That's quite high.

Jo: That is high.

Tommy: Are you nervous?

Mason: No, it's not too bad. I mean, during sleep, it got up to 120.

Tommy: Really?

Jo: Wow.

Mason: That was at 3 o'clock this morning.

Jo: Wow. What about, have you heard that urban myth? I don't know if it's true. That someone, a guy, was wearing a smartwatch, right? Oh, okay, here's, here's a tip: if you're going to tell a story, work out what the storey is before you start. Okay, this is— okay, I got it now. So a guy was wearing a smartwatch, he was out having a night with the boys, and his wife was at home, and the smartwatch was linked in with their Apple, their family iPad, right? And at a certain time, she sees that his heart rate goes through the roof, and then so that's how she found out he cheating.

Josh: Shit.

Jo: Fuck. Because he was out and obviously— Well, there's a whole 7 minutes of extreme activity.

Tommy: What's the phoner off the back of this?

Jo: How did you get caught cheating?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. What about something around heart rate? When's your heart rate fucked you over? It's a bit more niche.

Jo: Or how high can you get it?

Josh: That's a good one.

Tommy: What is the highest heart rate of someone who's actually survived it? Like, I wonder if it— well, your maximum heart rate's 220 minus your age. And then there's— is it? Yeah.

Jo: Geez, you're clever. I didn't know that.

Tommy: Well, it's simple.

Jo: I can't believe you didn't finish Year 12.

Tommy: No, I got my Cert 4 in. I was a PT for many years, so it's about all I remember. But, um, we all get hot past that.

Jo: Say again? Your maximum heart rate is 220 minus your age.

Tommy: Minus your age. As you get older, it gets harder to work out off the top of your head.

Jo: Yeah, I'm no good at maths.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: So, but that when you say maximum That's the level you can get to without having a heart attack, right?

Tommy: Well, they say that's the, your maximum heart rate that you could stay at for a period of time. So there's like a safe range where you can hit it for a bit of time during exercise and down. But the more unfit you are, the quicker you're going to get to 220. Do you exercise?

Jo: Yes, I do.

Tommy: How does that help with sleep?

Jo: And that helps certainly. I do Pilates and I run, and running to me is, oh my gosh, It's one of the greatest meditations you can do, don't you reckon? I don't know if you run. Do you run?

Josh: What do you reckon? Nah.

Jo: Well, for me—

Tommy: No, I like—

Josh: I'm— That's going to be the thing when I get back to it. Like, I had someone sort of analyse me the other day and they said I wasn't ready to run, apparently. But I do enjoy running.

Jo: Why?

Josh: Have you got an injury? Yeah, I've got a few injuries.

Jo: Okay. Well, I'm lucky. I like— I've got knees that can still run at 46. In fact, I did a fun run the other day because it used to be my greatest joy, and then I stopped doing it because I had, you know, my daughter and I don't know, life, whatever. And then this year I was like, that's it, I'm going to go, I'm going to do it. I'm entering a fun run. It was only an 8-kayer. It was awesome. It was around the Melbourne Zoo, right? I had the best time ever. And then when I finished—

Josh: like, do you get to see the animals?

Jo: Yeah. So we went around the circumference and then through and then around and then through and then around, which was 8Ks. And when I finished, I was like, that was so easy. I actually had to double-check that I finished all the laps. I thought I'd finished early, like I'd just gone I'm out. Didn't finish anyway. And I came 15th in my age bracket.

Josh: That's so awesome.

Jo: And not that there were 16 in there. It was like, there were like 350. So I feel so fortunate that running is still a thing for me because I just think creatively, if I've got, if I'm writing something and I can't get the idea or, you know, I know I've got to come up, I've got to do a little brainstorm with myself or whatever it might be. I go for a run and just things come. It's so great. But I laugh because I had felt, I thought I had like a weird heart memory thing, right? And so I went and, you know, they do it like a stress test. Have you ever done one of them?

Tommy: And they put the things on you?

Jo: Yeah, and you have to run on the treadmill until you get to a point where you feel like you cannot keep running. That's how— On the treadmill?

Josh: That feels dangerous.

Tommy: Why?

Josh: Well, just because, like I saw the other day, Core Advantage, they have this sprinting thing where people are sprinting on treadmill. I just feel like a treadmill, you're gonna—

Jo: No, no, you're used to it. I do a lot of treadie running.

Tommy: So they're not saying they're not pushing it to the—

Jo: No, you get to control it, right?

Tommy: But then it's a consistent, like, you'll blow out if you're going at 10, which is—

Josh: But how wouldn't everyone want to just push it so hard to the point that they just slam into the wall?

Jo: Well, I don't know what everyone else did, but what I did, right? So you're running, and what I didn't know is when I got there, because to put all the things on you're not allowed to wear a bra while running.

Tommy: While running.

Jo: Yeah, I was like, oh no, that's not going to work for me. I just, I can't do that. And they're like, well, you have to. That's the only way we can test your heart rate.

Tommy: I'm like, so what are you running in the nude or something?

Jo: No, you put a top on over the top, of course. Yeah, but I'm running and I'm like, I got to like maybe not very fast. What did you say, 10?

Tommy: Which is pretty slow, right?

Jo: So let's say I got to about a 13.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: And then I've just gone, that's it, I'm out. And they've gone, oh, this is as hard as your heart can go. And I'm like, no, my boobs 'Boobs are just fucking killing me.

Josh: I just can't do it.' Can't they just put it under the— surely you could just wear a bra.

Jo: Apparently not.

Josh: I mean, they would know, I guess.

Jo: Once, and I'm very passionate about gender equality, so don't roll your eyes, men. But there's another instance where medical science, it's just gender biassed towards men.

Tommy: I mean, I've felt for women that I've seen running. Oh my God. Having had the right bras on.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: I was just like, mate, that's an effort.

Jo: It is. I mean, I don't have— it's not a big problem for me. I don't have large tits, but for chicks who have big boobs and they run, huge respect, because it doesn't take me much to come up with an excuse. I won't run if it's— I don't want— I don't— as much as I love running, my excuses are it's too hot, it's too cold, it's too windy, I'm having a good hair day. I probably wouldn't run if I have— from wearing makeup, I'm like, oh, I'm looking quite good, I won't run today. Yeah, so if I had If I had big boobs, there's no way I'd run.

Tommy: What are you consistent at in life? What is the one thing that you sort of do regularly?

Josh: Can't say sleep.

Tommy: No, well, I don't say sleep.

Jo: No, um, meditate at least 5 times a week. Try to meditate daily, but sometimes—

Josh: Is it TM or what sort of—

Jo: No.

Josh: What do you do?

Jo: Uh, I tend to do— at the moment I'm doing— I do meditation courses. So I'm really— I really dig Deepak Chopra's. He does 21-day courses, so you get a little lesson from him and then he gives you a Sanskrit mantra and then you meditate with the mantra. Okay. And the books that he do, what's, what's his, um, the main one he did was, uh, what's the most famous one that made everyone— what is it?

Tommy: I just love his name.

Mason: Seven Spiritual Laws of Success.

Josh: Yeah.

Jo: Yeah, I think he did one before.

Josh: Eckhart Tolle does the like Power of Now or whatever, but I always hear this other guy mentioned.

Jo: Uh, lots of— well, Deepak Chopra works with, um, Oprah.

Josh: Okay, sure.

Jo: So I mean, Oprah's like— she's got to be one of the coolest people around, don't you reckon? I adore her.

Tommy: Have you done a retreat, like a meditation?

Jo: No, I'm a bit scared of that. I mean, it's largely because of the people that'll be there.

Tommy: Well, you don't talk to them if you're doing a silent retreat.

Jo: I think there'd still be—

Josh: Yeah, there's definitely things going on.

Tommy: Well, I think the thing is you end up building stories. I listened to this one woman talk about how she did an 8-day retreat or 2-week retreat full on, like it's probably a hard one to go to for your first one.

Jo: Probably wouldn't start with that.

Tommy: Definitely not. But she said how much she'd built out in her head about the people around her, all the stories. And so by the end of it, she had never spoken to them. But she's like, this woman definitely hates me based on me not blah, blah, blah.

Jo: See, our brains are crazy.

Tommy: And then she spoke to the woman after and she's like, that's so funny. I thought the complete opposite. I thought you didn't like me. Like it was just clearly that we build stories.

Jo: So, you know, that's a survival instinct, right?

Tommy: Storytelling.

Jo: Our brains are wired to keep us very safe, be very risk averse, which means that we're suspicious of strangers. I don't know you. You're not in my community. You're not my tribe. You might be. You might want to, you know, bash me over the head and steal my woman and take my boar or whatever.

Tommy: I definitely want your boar. I won't take your woman.

Jo: But you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So that then for an active mind, churning mind becomes an obsessive thing because our brains are convincing us that there's danger everywhere.

Tommy: It is your best trait. I mean, it's something I sometimes throw him into. I'm like, what's the storey here, Josh?

Josh: Well, I've actually thought about like, I don't know where I heard it, but I've been doing this for the past few months. It's driving me crazy. Um, everyone I walk past— I heard this thing where it's like if you look at someone once in the eyes, um, and then you look away, you can't look back at them because from a power dynamic point of view, you just become super, um, what's the opposite of alpha? What's that?

Jo: Um, submissive.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And so they own you then, Josh. Yeah.

Josh: And so that's the whole thing. So, so I've gotten into the habit of like if I look at someone as I'm walking past, I look at them once, and then as soon as I look away, I'm like, okay, I'm not looking back.

Tommy: If they have a face tattoo, will you promise not to be staring at them? Like, they could be a bikie.

Josh: Well, no, I just— Yeah, so that's one thing I've noticed.

Tommy: What's the storey that you've got on us, Joe?

Josh: What's that? What's it? Yeah, you knew that I had a churning mind. What's the other story? This is fun. This is so self-indulgent.

Jo: His energy is so— Josh, your energy is so sweet and so gentle, which in my experience— and trust me, my husband's very sweet and gentle, but he doesn't churn because he's a shallow pool, is what he says. He's like, dive into me and you'll break your neck. So good. He's just like— I say to him, honey, what do you think your purpose is? You're sitting on the couch eating Doritos at the time. He says, this So, but you just feel like you're a real thinker. Yeah, which is a lovely trait, but that can be really, um, I think it can torture you. Whereas Tommy, I feel like, um, I feel you're a little more easygoing around that, around the turning thing. I feel like you seem to sort of— your energy is, I feel like you kind of shake it off. This is having not really— I don't know either of you very well, I'm making a huge assumption.

Josh: We love this, anytime that someone's talking about us.

Jo: But I hope I'm right because I pride myself on being a very good reader of people.

Tommy: I think on that level, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Josh: Do you think that the people that have problems with people tend to say that they're good at reading people? Like, I've got a mate where it's just like, he's like, I've just got a bad vibe and I'm good with vibes, you know?

Jo: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I wonder if there is like— I wonder if that plays into the story, which it's very convenient that you are good at reading people.

Jo: Well, don't they say the most dangerous thing is someone who thinks they know everything? Because they won't. They're not in a learning space, right? So, yeah, if I come in and I go, yeah, I got you, Tommy, I know who you are, then I'm not very open to understanding who you are, obviously.

Josh: What do you think the biggest misconception is that people get with you?

Jo: People have always thought, and I didn't realise this for a long time, but people thought I think I'm quite standoffish and a bit cold. Rude, a bitch, because I'm very introverted. So in a room, I will be quite, quite removed and, and, and withdrawn because I'm very nervous and extremely like, you know, the anxiety is like hardcore for me. But people assume that I'm going to be really outgoing and fun and waka waka. So when I'm not that, they think that I'm, I guess, arrogant or You know, you have to try and like change it in the moment.

Josh: Like if you realise that the external— like for me, I'm like when I'm presenting or if I have to have any information, if I'm doing like emceeing, I used to never smile because I was just concentrating so much on just saying the name right. Yeah. Now I've just got to just pretend. Just so it's just a bit of tummy, tummy jackets.

Tommy: You seem a bit sick when you're doing this. Where's Eva?

Josh: Thanks everyone for coming. Like, this is what a beautiful And I—

Jo: yeah, which is, which is again, there's a theory to that working in that, you know, emotion is contagious. And so when you smile, people smile back and then that's how rapport is built. But yeah, well, that's what, that's what breakfast radio taught me because you're always meeting listeners and you have to be from the minute you walk in, you're their best friend. And I never would say that that was unauthentic.

Josh: I—

Jo: but it taught me that if you look someone in the eye and you smile and remember their name, you instantly make a connection. And, uh, for me, social anxiety is helped by curiosity. And if you're— again, present moment awareness and breathwork helped, but just being curious and asking questions of other people, it took me out of my head and into, ah, so tell me about what's going on for you. And really specific questions too, like if I heard them mention their daughter, or, oh, tell me about your daughter, what does she love to do? Or, you know, so it kind that's shifted things a lot for me. And in that sort of corporate space where you're meeting lots of people like you're talking about there, Josh, you know, you can just go a long way by remembering someone's name and being really friendly. But that can be hard when you've got that social anxiety because you want to go and hide in the toilet.

Tommy: Well, I think it can— the emotion can be the trap also, because if you're not feeling great and you don't want to be there, it's like it doesn't mean that the situation actually has to be that state. 'Cause you can shift it with your physiology.

Jo: Fake it till you feel it.

Josh: Yeah.

Jo: Yeah. Shift it with physiology. Absolutely.

Tommy: And so, I mean, that's what you were coming into the radio station every morning. There could be some big activation on and there's people everywhere. Is that what you did? You sort of just lent into the feeling or lent into— it's one thing you don't want to ignore how you feel, but then there's a time that you can ignore how you feel.

Jo: Yeah, but though, you see, I think there's feelings and there's thoughts. Right? Your thought, when you're in a space of like, oh, I've got to walk into a room where people don't know me and I'm really anxious about that— that's a thought, that's not a feeling. And that thought is a lie to you. You, you are not your thoughts. You're— and even like, they're true, but they're not— sorry, they're real, but they're not true. The, the thought that you're having, oh my God, I'm going to walk in there and people are going to go, oh, she's— you know, they're going to judge me, or am I funny enough, or do I belong, or all those things that you think That's a— that happens for real in your head, but it's not a truth. So you have to kind of disassociate that and go, oh, oh, there's that thing again. I've noticed it, I've named it, and then I'm just gonna let it pass through. And in fact, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna walk in, acknowledge that I'm a bit nervous, and then I'm gonna look at them and I'm gonna say hi and be grateful that they're there and enjoy their energy and smile. And, and there's so much positivity around connecting with someone on that real level that you— I found that I kind of then was caught up in the moment. It was great fun.

Tommy: Well, I mean, what you ended up doing for a job is very counter to the introvert that doesn't like those situations. Is it? I mean, it ends up being like a—

Josh: Seems common though. Like you look at the Howard Sterns or whatever that just do their thing.

Tommy: Is it that it's common or that these people like yourself do it great? You know, like the Howard Stern yourself, it's actually where you thrive, but you're acting as an extrovert, like it's the extrovert's role as an introvert.

Jo: Ah, well, I mean, there are extroverts that do it well as well. I guess, um, for me—

Josh: How would you feel after the week, on a weekend after like Monday to Friday you do shows, is your default to go into your space and not see anyone?

Jo: Oh, I don't wish to talk to a soul. Yeah. And in fact, and that is That's the thing. One, my husband will tell you, one of the differences between me now and when I was on Brekkie Radio and, you know, I might be back on radio again one day full time. So I hope that I'm able to keep this at bay. But I just— back when, when you're doing that, you're just so not into talking to anyone. Just don't, don't look at me. Don't talk to me. And now I'm a chitty chatter. Oh, I'll stop on the street corner and talk to anyone. Won't let them go. They're probably trying to move on. But that was not me when I was— because you're so fatigued.

Josh: I feel that.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, you have a quota of words for a week.

Jo: And it's energy in and energy out too, I think.

Josh: How do you bring energy in?

Jo: You would find that as a PT, don't you think? Like, I always think personal trainers, oh my gosh, the amount of energy that you have to give to your probably whinging, annoying clients.

Josh: He was having lattes with his clients.

Tommy: Look, some of them were wealthy Albert Park women.

Josh: And so is that good or bad?

Tommy: It's great because they just said, let's go for coffee. And I said, oh no, okay.

Jo: And then I'd be getting paid to have coffee.

Josh: Slash escort. But actually, on escort, did you know that Tommy, uh, Tommy, he was a stripper and he actually once stripped for you as a bit of a radio bit?

Jo: Yeah, I remember that.

Tommy: Oh, you do? Yeah, I didn't know if you did.

Jo: I, I think I remember it.

Josh: What was it on?

Jo: The Matt and Joe Show?

Tommy: Matt and Joe Show.

Josh: It was someone's hen's party.

Tommy: Some hen's party at Baroque House.

Jo: I've got video evidence. Yes, yes.

Tommy: I was in a G-string in front of you. It's a bit awkward, to be honest.

Jo: Only if you were still in a G-string.

Tommy: No, I'm still in a G-string. I've just got pants on now.

Josh: Do you reckon the production meetings, the conversations within radio in 2020 are different to, you know, that time or even, you know, going back into the '90s?

Jo: I really don't know because I haven't been in one in 2020.

Josh: Yeah. What about your personal— like, do you think that the shit that was on radio then, like, I love going back to the archives of stuff, especially like trying to understand the US radio thing and how— and just some of the shit that, that especially the American market would do was just like you could never do in 2020.

Jo: Oh yeah, I think that the same with everything in the world. We've all moved on and are a little bit more enlightened as to what you can and can't have fun with. Most definitely. And that's a great thing. I mean, there's, there's conversations that have been had around diversity that needed to be had and all kinds of diversity. So not just gender diversity, but, you know, cultural backgrounds and people with disabilities and whatever it might be like that is, that is exactly where we should be. And I would like to see our media embrace diversity way more. But certainly for, you know, when I was that 10 years on the Matt and Joe Show, that conversation wasn't ever really had.

Tommy: I watched Free Willy with my son on Friday night and he loved it. So surprised, like he's 3, still likes cartoons and things.

Jo: Obviously gifted.

Tommy: Yeah. I mean, but he liked the whale.

Josh: I think he's a bit of a generalist, which is still gifted, but just he's very gifted.

Tommy: He says that. But that movie you can't— could not remake.

Jo: I've never seen it. Why? What's— what's—

Tommy: well, the whales, they're orca whales, so they're killer whales in pools.

Josh: But what's it—

Jo: what's—

Tommy: What's so crazy is that the premise is these people capture it, put it in the tank, and this young kid falls in love with it. They become best friends, and he works out that it's missing his family, and they ended up taking it and releasing it to the wild.

Jo: Which is the opposite of how they actually got that orca that's in Free Willy.

Tommy: Oh, really? Yeah.

Jo: Haven't you seen the documentary? Oh my gosh, it's the saddest thing ever.

Tommy: Did they steal it, or it was—

Jo: They stole it from its mother, and then it lived in a, um, a— what do you call it? A, an aqua— like an sea park or whatever you call them, and in the end killed a keeper because it was like extremely anxious and depressed.

Tommy: They didn't let it go. My godfather was the director of that film. I really saw the credits. I thought, oh my God, it was. Yeah, he was.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I was telling my son, he didn't give a shit. I was like, mate, it's my big dog.

Josh: It is a good story.

Tommy: My godfather.

Jo: But anyway, I think it was that orca.

Josh: Well, the thing is, it could be.

Jo: Well, I worry that, you know, you're going to fuck up.

Josh: It's a great story. He will be.

Tommy: No, but the So in itself, it's like stating that you shouldn't put orcas in captivity.

Josh: But they were doing that.

Jo: But they were doing that.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: But we weren't— the lens wasn't there for that stuff. Absolutely. But even like the prank calls that were done, like Matt Tilley did the— he brought the diversity to the show, but it was just through his accents. But it was like, you can't do that. Like, can you do that? What do you think?

Jo: Uh, I think I think it was of its time and yeah, no, you wouldn't do it now for sure. But I, you know, I have people still almost on a weekly basis say to me, A, we love the Matt and Jo Show, and B, those gotcha calls were just a highlight. A woman literally last weekend, she had the CD still with her.

Tommy: That's right. You did CDs.

Jo: I'm like, why? Who has CDs anymore? Anyway, it's so I don't know. It's hard for me to comment about something that was now 15 years ago. Sorry, 5 years ago.

Josh: More.

Jo: 2013 we finished. So yeah, 7 years ago.

Tommy: I think we shouldn't be too— like there's things that happened in the past and I think the point of like saying the difference now is not to say back then you guys got it really wrong. It's like, no, it was a different time.

Josh: It's just informing the future potentially.

Tommy: Which it's like saying that the younger generation are now more Woke than previous generations.

Jo: We have different standards. Like, let me give this as an example. For a large part of my time on the Matt and Joe Show, in and around any conversation about footy players, there was a, you know, a running gag about how I would seriously objectify football players right now. They're hot. What can you say? And have amazing bodies. And it was really amusing. It was a great sort of comic banter. Around, you know, how I loved Colin Whipplepool and la la la. And it was kind of like a running gag, right? Well, you wouldn't do that now. I wouldn't do that now because you can't— because we have different standards around is it okay to objectify a human, male or female? And it's not. But that's— it's just a different time. And I don't— I don't sort of look back and think that I did it in any way that was threatening or was an imbalance of power or was in any way offensive. It was just a bit of blue fun content. But you wouldn't do it now. I wouldn't do it now.

Josh: When was the first time you did stand-up?

Jo: Well, I, I was in a comedy group doing live gigs when I was 18. So that was 30, 29 years ago. Are you even 30?

Josh: I turn it in September.

Mason: Yeah.

Jo: Yeah. Okay. Well, so pretty much your life, lifespan.

Josh: I bet you can still run. I'm fucking worrying about what's happening at Vigorous Tides and you're just fucking running past me.

Tommy: Who's sleeping better? You need the bloody armband to tell you.

Josh: I'm now sleeping.

Jo: Yeah, and then I started doing solo comedy, I guess maybe when I was 25, 26. So yeah, it's been it, but I haven't— I did a comedy festival show last year, but it was like more of a musical/play. I haven't done stand-up in a very long time.

Josh: What was it like being a woman in that scene at that time?

Jo: Really hard. Really hard. And probably I would say I found it harder being in the green room than being on stage. The audience were always really fine with it. I never found— I was never heckled in a disgusting way. I mean, I didn't do the roughest of venues, but I did mostly pubs like the Espy and and, you know, those sorts of pubs. So the crowd weren't genteel, but they were never horrible. But backstage I found, and this is I think largely due to my social anxiety and the anxiety I was not managing at the time, I just found being in the green room and being the only woman there amongst all of these really, really vocal men very intimidating. I hated it. And I will say one of the reasons I stopped doing it, well, I started doing breakfast radio, so I didn't need to do it anymore. But yeah, I just didn't want to. I didn't want to feel that way anymore. So I just stopped going, which is a shame. I could have been amazing. I don't know. Maybe not.

Tommy: Is it— do you think these men have confidence or is it assumed confidence? What is it?

Jo: You tell me.

Tommy: Well, I don't know. I haven't been in the green room as a comedian, but I mean, I'm just trying to think about those times where if it's— are they just more like, are they trying, are they putting on a mask that is like this sort of forward, like, you know, trying to do something, trying to intimidate you? That's what I'm trying to say.

Josh: When you're the majority as well, if you're the majority, I think that it all automatically, whether it's earned or not, gives you something that a minority doesn't.

Jo: Yeah. What you're pondering is essentially patriarchy, I think, because what is It's like a microcosm of the fact that in an industry where it's very, very male-dominated, um, the people who are the majority, as you say, Josh, they just have a sense of ownership that they wouldn't even question. And they weren't intending to be intimidating. I just felt, as the only other in the room, quite intimidated. Um, I'm not a particularly confident person naturally, so that was hard enough. And I suppose there's like, you know, there's a sense of feeling like you don't fit in and that there would be an exclusiveness to them. Like, they were— they had their boys club, and it was hard to kind of fit into, kind of. And that's not to say I had a lot of friends there, um, who were mostly male, and they were beautiful, but they weren't always there, you know.

Tommy: When have you felt the most confident or the most sort of at home, like, within your working career? Radio station?

Jo: Radio? Oh my gosh, it's just the best job in the world, wouldn't you like? It's just What a joy. What a joy to have, have the opportunity to connect with people as they're going about their lives and that they trust you with their storeys and with their, you know, they let you into their lives and consequently you let them into your lives. And it's a really beautiful, it's just a relationship that there's nothing else like it. And I really liked that you could build you had time for people to understand the complexities of you, as opposed to, you know, on TV you can't do that even if you are— sometimes maybe, you know, people like Carrie Bickmore, or, you know, I think people know or feel like they know her.

Tommy: I think it's the time, it's 10 years on TV.

Jo: Exactly.

Tommy: It's this long narrative that's evolving.

Jo: Yeah, exactly. And maybe that's why we like, you know, I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. We see an insight into the kind of people that these celebrities are. But on radio, you have 2 years, 5 days a week at least, usually your contract if you're lucky, to build an understanding of each other and a trust. And you can go to so many different levels. You can be really funny and waka waka, or you can be really moving and you can share things about yourself. You can be angry. That's great. That's so— that was so enjoyable to share a common anger. About an injustice in the world. You know, like, it's such a great medium.

Tommy: The shift from, I guess, the days you started in radio, the audience was very kind of separate. You had the show and then the radio station and then the audience that listened, and they contact you through phones and all of that stuff, like events. And then the sort of difference it's now become through you having your own social media and building up that audience, so it's separate from Fox FM's audience back in the day. And then what has that experience been for you with that more direct contact external from a radio station's audience where it's very much, it's all there for you? What is that experience?

Jo: Oh, well, I'm, I'm a bit of a grandma when it comes to social media. I wouldn't say I've really got a handle on that.

Josh: You're not even on Instagram anymore?

Jo: Yeah, real Jo Stanley.

Tommy: Was that a dig, Josh?

Josh: I swear when I tried looking you up, you disappeared. You didn't block me, have you?

Jo: No, I would not have done that because I don't know how.

Tommy: But just even the close, you know, so it was all sort of filtered through the station back in the day. I could imagine most shows it's all through the station, but then there's this sort of area you're building around, like you've got your website, you know, you're—

Jo: Yeah, I never felt like I was limited by the station though. No, it's a strange thing when you look at brand. I've always said that, you know, with something like Fox FM, you've got a very huge heritage behind that station and people come to the station because it's Fox FM, but they stay because of the people on it. So kind of there's a, there's a symbiotic relationship, but in a way the people on it need to exist separate too. And that's how it always felt, I guess.

Josh: Yeah. You're not showing up in search for either of our accounts.

Jo: There's no the, just real Jo Stanley. I'm not the, it's not like I don't have a title.

Josh: Real Jo Stanley.

Jo: There I am.

Tommy: Are you doing this so you—

Josh: so I wanted to double check. No, because I was looking everywhere. I saw your Twitter, I saw everything else. I'm like, where is your Instagram gone?

Jo: Yeah. So on Insta, what you're going to get is a lot of dog images.

Josh: Can I give you a small tip? Oh, please. So you've got @realjoestanley as your Instagram handle. If you update your name to Joe Stanley, then when people search Joe Stanley—

Jo: Oh, down there, you mean?

Josh: Yeah. Because no one— if you search Joe Stanley, you won't come up.

Jo: Ah, I didn't know that.

Tommy: Okay.

Josh: So if you— yeah, like if you look at mine, it's like Josh Anthon— but then Josh Space Janson. Yeah, there you go. Little social media.

Jo: Look at that, '97.

Josh: Yeah, it's good, isn't it?

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Did you know that, mate?

Mason: No, I actually had problems trying to find it. I was trying to find it just before and I couldn't find it. But then, yeah, I just searched it then and now we're fine.

Jo: Josh, you're the best. You've made an old lady very happy.

Josh: That's okay, that's all right. And so the social media thing, I wasn't actually listening to the last bit because I can't do two things at once.

Jo: Sure, no one can. People think they can, but they can't. We only have one focus, man.

Josh: Talking about focus, Do you look much into the future? I know you're all conscious and present, but are you thinking about—

Jo: Well, I made a vision board this year. Have you ever had a vision board?

Tommy: Once, and it didn't work, so I scrapped it.

Josh: No, but you did.

Mason: You had it.

Josh: It was a Channel 10 job, wasn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, I didn't get it. Didn't get it.

Josh: Tore it up. The only reason magazines—

Jo: I think it depends what you put on the vision board though.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: The only reason magazines are still a thing is for people fucking cutting out.

Tommy: I was printing shit. I was printing stuff.

Jo: No, that's what I googled, how to make a vision board, right?

Josh: He's fucking Pinterest.

Jo: But anyway, well, it said you go to magazines and you cut it out. I'm like, well, why would you do that? Wouldn't you just Google the image that you want?

Tommy: Yeah, and then print it.

Jo: And just print it out.

Josh: But printers, have you sorted out your ink?

Mason: No, no, no, no. I was trying to return my smoothie machine.

Tommy: It broke.

Mason: But yeah, I was trying to print off the little label and stick it on the box and we didn't have any sticky tape and we didn't have any ink for the printer. So it printed out a barcode, but it was everything was just like missing. It was an absolute—

Josh: So he's rattled.

Jo: This is why people get road rage.

Josh: Printers. I don't know anyone that's had a great printer. I don't know anyone that's like, oh, my printer is great.

Tommy: No, I had a great printer, but it was my mum's and she looked after it.

Josh: So it always—

Tommy: it's always, you know, when someone else looks after your shit.

Jo: Yeah.

Josh: What's like the Troy Kinney thing where it's like, oh, it's the magic washing thing. Like my washing just gets done somehow.

Tommy: It ends up out in the line.

Josh: So did you print? You printed things for your mood board?

Jo: Yeah.

Josh: Your vision board? Yeah, I have.

Jo: Yeah.

Josh: Okay. And so what was on there? What did you put? Oh, I haven't finished it. How big is it?

Jo: And it's already much. Oh, it's like the back of my door of my study. So, but the images are quite big. So the sorts of things I put up there, I've got, because I've read this book called Get Things Done.

Josh: Oh yeah, David Allen, Getting Things Done. Yeah, great.

Jo: So, you know, he talks about how you only want to think about the point of impact. That's, you know, to use a tennis analogy. When you're getting things done, you want to just think about this moment again, point of impact. So I have a, I have an image of a tennis ball hitting a tennis racket on there, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I have an image of someone running because I want to do more running.

Josh: Do you also like tennis? Just so it's got two.

Jo: No, I'm not a big fan of tennis. No, not at all. But I like the image of like, you know, tennis players don't think about if it's going to go over the net. They are only thinking about it hitting that racket.

Josh: That's where I think I get it wrong. You're constantly trying to get it over the net.

Jo: Yeah.

Josh: If you're not, if you don't have that as the default because they've obviously gotten to a point where it's like, I know I'm getting it over the net. Yeah. Whereas like for me it's like it's still a thing, but I like that.

Tommy: And so is there what other stuff like?

Jo: A lot of sayings. Okay. So some of my mantras, I'm mad for mantras, right? I think that they— would you say mantras? I don't know. Mantras.

Josh: I like mantras.

Jo: It does sound a bit wanky though, but I don't like mantra.

Josh: Yeah.

Jo: Yeah, so I say mantra. Anyway, whatever. Things like, I dwell in possibility. Emily Dickinson said that, and I like that.

Josh: Say that again, please.

Jo: I dwell in possibility.

Josh: Dwell in possi— dwell is sort of a negative word, don't you think? I dwell.

Jo: Why? It just means to live. I dwell.

Josh: Yeah, I dwell. Because whenever you think of dwelling on something, it's like thinking, right? Can we get the official definition of dwell? You're definitely right, but I'm just— I've never heard it without within the context of a possibility.

Jo: Oh, that's so interesting, Josh.

Mason: Live in or at a specific place.

Jo: There you go. So I dwell in possibility. And one of the things I love about that, and it sounds a bit dark, but Emily Dickinson ended up actually suiciding, which is very sad. But I guess to me, and not that I've ever been suicidal, but I suppose I'm inspired by the fact that someone can say, can actually live with a mental illness and still say something like, I dwell in possibility. Because that is, to me, that is the dichotomy of mental illness, that you can actually feel really amazing and still be struggling with the mental illness, you know. And sadly for her, the mental illness ended up taking her. But, um, so yeah, I dwell in possibility. Uh, and what else have I got? Um, uh, so this, yeah, um, I'm loving it. Hey, I'm loving it. Maserati, you're awesome. Um, ask and let go of how you're— what's your Oh, well, this is a part of one of the quotes I have up there, which is, "A blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive," which is in relation to your creative endeavor, which can sometimes be really torturous. And you feel like, "Ooh, is people gonna like it? What if no one likes it?" Well, it's not really important if they like it. It's just something that you have to do. You're a conduit for the voice inside you that needs to get out there, right? So, "A blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive." That's from Martha Graham.

Josh: Can you say it slower, please?

Jo: Sorry. A blessed unrest 'unrest,' a blessed unrest that keeps us marching, that keeps us marching and makes us more alive.

Josh: Makes us more alive.

Jo: Okay, pretty beautiful. Martha Graham, who was the godmother of contemporary dance, said that.

Tommy: And so do you use this board? Is there like a goal? You know, like you're thinking— I could imagine back in the day people using these to—

Josh: a lot of Rolex and shit.

Tommy: Yeah, like, here's what I want. I want the house. Yeah, I want the career. There's the position. There's the—

Jo: I just don't think the universe provides in that way.

Tommy: Yeah.

Jo: Like if I put a Rolex up there, I don't think I'd ever get a Rolex. It doesn't just magically appear because I put a picture of a Rolex.

Tommy: I guess that's where people's pushback on vision boards are. It's like, yeah, it's just putting pictures up on a wall.

Jo: So for me, are you a goal setter? Do you write lists of goals?

Tommy: I have been in the past. I think I've— and they've worked. I do like a— I do a a dump at the end of the year.

Josh: Just one.

Jo: Just one.

Josh: Just one a year. Just one a year.

Jo: Just one a year.

Tommy: But I look at what I achieved and what I would like to achieve.

Jo: Right.

Tommy: And then you do that again each year and you can look back and you go, ah, and so I think I look at the goals or I list, I'm thinking over a lot of the things I want to achieve constantly. Yes. So it's not like I write house, you know, I write I want this type of car. No, but I am goal focused.

Jo: But you guys are such amazing outputters of content and you've obviously set yourselves goals. Like, you know, we're going to have the media company, we're going to do this and that podcast and like you've really done it, right? You've achieved it. So you must have set yourself those goals.

Josh: We definitely don't. Like, I think that's one of the things is like I heard someone say like balance isn't about having everything right at once. It's about like a seesaw.

Jo: Right.

Josh: And I think that that's like part of it is I think everyone's trying to get get everything at the same time.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Whereas if you can just like focus, and so like personally I'm an absolute mess, but we have the—

Jo: Look at your fancy studio. I mean, it looks like you've even vacuumed. I'm impressed.

Tommy: Yeah, I did that last Friday.

Jo: Really?

Tommy: Yeah, I did actually, guys.

Josh: That's quite good. And so yeah, I think the balancing is interesting.

Jo: So for me, I've been a goal setter in the past of actual things I want to achieve and I've in recent years been very frustrated about the fact that I've not been able to do— like, I get to the end of the year, I'm like, oh, another year without having done that thing, right? So my new approach this year is to not put, okay, I'm going to write that novel. Instead, my vision board is about the quality I want to embody more this year, which may end up being a novel. So the quality is exploration.

Josh: I love that.

Jo: So instead I'm putting up things like where images that remind me as I sit at my desk, I look at it and I go, oh yeah, exploration is all that matters. It's the process. Outcome, don't even think about it. Just the process. So then I insist every day, every week there's one day a week where I sit and I just write, exploring my voice. It might end up being a novel, but I haven't put that on a goals list. So it sits there like, you know, someone glaring at you across a pub because they hate you. You know, like, you know, there's a bad smell in the air, that kind of, that sense when you look at something on a to-do list that you haven't done. The worst feeling in the world.

Tommy: Because you're constantly looking at where I am right now and where I want to be.

Jo: That's it. I'm like, I'm fucked. I'm not You're never going to get back up.

Tommy: Yeah, you really feel the distance between where you've got to get to.

Jo: Whereas I can embody exploration any day of the week and no one knows whether it's done right or wrong because there is no right or wrong.

Josh: On New Year's Eve, we had Dr. Jason Fox, one of our mates, and he's got Choose One Word.

Jo: What kind of doctor is he?

Josh: Philosophy.

Tommy: Smarter than 97.

Jo: I know, mate.

Josh: 97.

Jo: You got no chance against that.

Josh: Definitely not.

Jo: It's not a competition, but it is.

Josh: It definitely is. And so, yeah, talking about the one word thing, what was yours, TJ? What's your word?

Tommy: I can't even remember.

Josh: Isn't that fucking bad? We should have written it down.

Tommy: No, because last time I had it.

Jo: You mean like a word that represents 2020?

Tommy: You're doing exploration. Exploration is your word. And so it's sort of driving your decisions.

Jo: Yes.

Josh: Right. They say archetypes are good. Like if you pick an archetype, then you can sort of really embody it.

Jo: Yeah.

Josh: Um, yeah.

Jo: So what was your word? Oh, come on, Seb.

Josh: What was my— seriously, what was my word?

Mason: Um, last year, uh, quality.

Tommy: No, so that was the year before.

Josh: No, year before was quality. Quality consumption was my year before.

Mason: No, yours was conscious consumption last year, and this year was quality.

Josh: You're right. Ah, yeah, quality is very good.

Jo: What does that even mean?

Josh: So quality, that's right, it's about, uh, it's actually about being present. So it is about when you're here, you're having the quality time. When I, if I am to buy things rather than just fucking replacing shit all the time, you buy the quality product or item.

Tommy: You went for the more expensive massage place.

Josh: Yeah, exactly.

Jo: Quality. Yeah.

Josh: And also, yeah, quality in regards to like person, like that whole like you have one body thing, but I'm still dialling it in.

Tommy: It's lint over Daryl Lee, you know, it's that style.

Josh: Exactly. But there's also Um, oh, like I buy Voss water. The things are really good.

Tommy: You're a consumer.

Josh: Yeah.

Jo: You know, I'm familiar with Voss, but what are you saying? What are you talking about? Like, are you saying the water is a better quality?

Josh: No, no, no.

Jo: Well, you just like that, that fancy bottle.

Josh: I get that bottle and then I fill it up. But I was like feeling like I would have a plastic one.

Jo: I was just like, oh no.

Tommy: You get called out less for having a Voss bottle.

Josh: The glass one.

Jo: Yeah, but don't you have like a, like, you know, I've got You've got a, like an actual drink bottle that you bring home to refill. That's the real way of doing it.

Josh: It is like glass.

Jo: If you're going to be sustainable.

Josh: I just want it to be a high—

Jo: Do you have a KeepCup? I have a KeepCup. Which KeepCup?

Josh: Oh, is it a plastic one?

Jo: No, it's glass.

Josh: Okay, I'm wanting to get the aluminium. They do one now that holds the temperature in properly.

Tommy: Overthinking it, mate. But that's quite functional. What was your word? Well, last year I had consistency. And I really nailed that one. This one, this year, I think I had adventure.

Josh: Oh, he's got an adventure club.

Tommy: Well, I've let it slip. I've, I've, um, I'm just trying to find the balance. So last year I really nailed it.

Jo: Adventure. Well, consistency is easier, I think, than adventure. Yeah, definitely is, because consistency, you, you know, if you're like, well, all I need to do is eat a vegetable every day, that's consistent. Adventure means you've got to jump out of a plane. That's quite different.

Tommy: There's a very different difficult nature around consistency. It's simple. Do one thing every single day. Yeah, it sounds simple, but it's the hardest thing.

Jo: Of course it's hard, but to me, much easier than jumping out of the plane.

Josh: Well, because also there's no judgment. Like, you could— you weren't saying that you were like consistently great, or like you're just— you can be like a piece of shit but consistently a piece of shit.

Tommy: I definitely wasn't.

Josh: But I—

Tommy: but the thing is, so each year you do it, right? And so I haven't— I've meditated every day since last year.

Josh: So you're saying you're still consistent?

Tommy: Yeah, you're building these habits around the consistency.

Jo: So adventure, what does that look like? Because you can be creatively adventurous.

Tommy: Yeah, the thing is—

Josh: You've got a club? Tell her about your club.

Tommy: Oh, it's not even happening yet.

Josh: But what do you mean?

Tommy: Oh, I know, as in it was an adventure club. It was to try and implement more of these things, like to actually do more. The problem is it comes to the weekend, then you're just going to be with your kids.

Josh: We're still doing the Adventure Club on the 29th.

Tommy: I hope so.

Jo: I think, you know, we all feel this pressure to have like a hobby, you know, or to do stuff with your time. And don't you reckon all of us just want to be really simple and hang at home with the people we love?

Tommy: So I think there's the person that you think you are. So it's like, I love bike riding. I love skateboarding. You know, like like, but how many times, how often do you do the thing that you sort of identify with? Identify is a big word, but it's like, I've done a lot of this in my past, but I find that you can be distracted from life, have a child, do a bloody, the Daily Talk Show, and there's your time gone, and a business. But it's like, the essence of the Adventure Club or the adventure was to do the things that I actually think I am But I'm not doing it.

Jo: And I think I, well, what you're doing is setting aside time to do the things that we do let go by the wayside because life is life. And don't they say, you know, for that work-life balance, you've got to really allocate time for yourself and the self-care comes with things like, okay, I am going to have an adventure. I love the idea. It's like having a book club, but like an adventure club.

Josh: Well, I've got a book club.

Jo: Is that what you say?

Josh: I've got a book club. He's got an adventure club.

Tommy: It's got where basic and where advanced. It was because I wanted to—

Josh: I thought we needed benchmarks and that was our first crack at it.

Tommy: And so on the balance thing, because that's what we're talking about, right? Trying to find and commit time to do something that we actually think we like. When you were in the radio, you know, 10 years of brekkie radio, flat out, was there any balance for you?

Jo: Well, I don't know. I remember, I mean, you're fatigued beyond You just, you know, like you're jet-lagged, you're so tired all the time. But you have afternoons, you do stuff there. I know, like, I don't know who I think.

Tommy: Are you a better version of you now?

Mason: Or—

Jo: Yeah, 100%. But that's because I've spent a lot more time on living consciously, I guess, like making choices that mean that I'm— I don't think happy is the right word— more content. I've, you know, have a more sort of sense of peace about life. And back then, I reckon the busier you are, the easier it is not to spend time on who you are. Yeah, it's like a good excuse, don't you reckon?

Tommy: I agree.

Jo: And it means that we stay busy.

Josh: It is.

Jo: It's absolutely why we stay busy. And so for me, I, you know, I had this great gift of just, you know, a couple of years of not doing breakfast radio, and it allowed me out of the bubble to go, oh, okay. Who is it that I want to be and how is it that I want to live and what kind of person do I want people to say that I am when they've spent time with me? And it wasn't like I would say I'm a different person, but I just, because I think all of those things I was when I was working in breakfast radio, but I just had a more conscious decision to do better with it.

Josh: Also, I think potentially there's something in the storey we tell each other. And so the storey that you tell now around consciousness only requires you and your internal self. Whereas like, I think the busy— the narrative around that, people are defining themselves through external things that can be taken away. And I think that that's like, if you can get to the narrative that's just requiring that internal work quicker, it means that you become completely resilient to anything that could happen.

Jo: Well, and because when you're like, I'm busy, busy, busy doing this and a little bit, you're defining yourself by all of that stuff. And that's lazy.

Josh: And someone can take away. But also it's like, yeah, someone can take it away from you. And I think that that's like there's something in when, when someone comes up to us and says, you guys are killing it with the podcast. I don't necessarily take it on just like I don't take the negative. Like if you choose to take the positive stuff, You have to take the negative. Then you have to take the negative.

Jo: I used to say the same thing with our ratings. You can't say, oh, we got a ripping survey, that was us. And then, oh, the survey was a bit down. Well, that's, that's just an anomaly. That's not us.

Josh: And you'd get Nando's either way, which I never got. It's like, well, the Nando's, it was good. They would always have a fucking panic on Clarendon Street Nando's when they could never keep up with the I don't have a memory of that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So there was, I just remember maybe it was a drive thing.

Jo: How funny.

Josh: But yeah, they would always do Nando's and even if it wasn't a great book, I think there was a sense of like, oh fuck, like, well, yeah, morale. We still need to get that. What? So yeah, they moved to, they ended up doing Grilled because Grilled could handle the—

Jo: Poor old Nando's. Nando's, just step up, babe.

Josh: Actually, just to cheque the temperature in the room, what sort of base tasting? What do you like from Nando's? Lemon and herb.

Jo: Oh, I don't know.

Josh: Mild.

Tommy: Are you vegetarian?

Jo: I, I'm exploring a fully plant-based diet, yes.

Tommy: Right.

Jo: But Nando's itself, I, I love, I love, I love the concept. I like their chips, but too spicy. I have— I can't do chili.

Tommy: Lemon and herb, definitely lemon.

Jo: Yeah, yeah. But I, I don't— I, yeah, I'm not a— not really much of a meat eater anymore, even though I love meat.

Tommy: But have you watched the documentary or Are you?

Jo: Yeah.

Tommy: Game Changers.

Josh: Yeah, I watched that. I went, not to put a name on it, but it was vegetarian for a month.

Jo: A month?

Josh: Yeah. And we went to Los Angeles during that time. They have great veggie food, but they also have peanut butter cups. And so I just—

Jo: But don't you think, did you tell people, hey everyone, I'm a vegetarian?

Josh: I do that every time.

Jo: Is that the terrible thing? Don't set yourself up to fail.

Josh: Every time I'm like, you know what? Because I watched this TED Talk where it's like, if you tell people your goals, it ticks the box and you don't have to do it anymore. I fucking do it every time.

Tommy: I also think there's, there's a coping mechanism. I took a year off drinking last year and I had a lot of focus on not drinking. And so it's a similar version of thinking about wanting to have a drink versus I'm not going to. You start thinking about all the things so you don't, that are in the way of getting a drink. And then after a while you end up not having that pattern of wanting to have a drink or caring about that, you know, because the answer's no. But when I almost get it why people who are going plant-based or vegetarian need to talk about it. It's a big fucking deal. Because it's actually to convince yourself to keep the habit going, build the habit in.

Jo: Yeah, definitely for drinking it would be that way because you'd have constantly, my husband gave up drinking and it just, I can't believe people were just like, well, why? Because he doesn't want to drink. But why? It's like people were just like, took it offense, personal offense, as though it was some kind of criticism of their drinking It's like, you do what you want, but he doesn't want to drink. So, you know, so I think in— you would have to justify it all the time. But for me, for— I'm just going to— I like to use the term flexitarian because I may just eat meat and I have done. Don't judge me. But yeah, that video, that film was very convincing.

Josh: Yeah. Just the whole burrito, the whole— I was thinking it was the wine. Yeah, I really—

Jo: what it's doing to the planet.

Josh: I feel like it didn't have the— the— was it Game Changers that you watched? Yeah, Game Changers. I felt like was one of those docos that was less about saving the planet and more like—

Jo: oh, there was a tiny part of it. Yeah, but somehow that part was the one I just went, oh no, oh, I can't do it anymore.

Josh: For me, it was— I didn't even know I needed to have an erection in my sleep, but it's like, if you want to have a boner in your sleep, you better I wonder how that would show up, service, on your—

Tommy: Well, that was 3 AM last night. 3 AM.

Jo: He said it went up to 100 and something.

Josh: Do we think that's what happens?

Mason: I have no idea.

Jo: Well, doesn't your watch tell you that as well? How many boners you had last night?

Tommy: You pay $24 a month, you hope so.

Mason: Depends where you strap the watch.

Josh: He doesn't do comedy, but that's funny.

Jo: That is a good app.

Tommy: That's good. Let's go to a song.

Josh: Joey Stanley, thank you for coming on the show.

Jo: Oh, thanks. It's been delightful. I would love to come back.

Josh: We always ask on air just so you can. Yeah, no one's going to come back.

Jo: This has been one of my favourite podcasts I've done. And geez, I am a slut for podcasts, let me tell you.

Josh: So are we, so are we.

Jo: Thanks guys.

Josh: It's a daily talk show. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, review us on Apple Podcasts. Otherwise, see you tomorrow.

Tommy: See ya.