Jodie Imam - Entrepreneur, Advisor, Mentor Jodie started her journey founding Occasional Butler, a marketplace for outsourcing odd jobs, which was later acquired by Airtasker. She also started Depo8, one of the first co-working spaces and startup incubators in Australia. Jodie now works as the General Manager at SBE Australia, an accelerator for Women-led businesses, as well as working as a mentor and advisor in seed funding and accelerator programs such as Startmate.
Show Notes
Depo8: https://depo8.com/
SBE Australia: https://sbeaustralia.org/
Jodie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jodieimam/
At a glance
From this episode’s transcript.
- –Coworking branding doesn't fit every audience; Depot8 had to rebrand from 'coworking' to 'shared office' because its members wanted productivity, not beer-and-yoga culture.
- –Early marketplace startups face a chicken-and-egg supply/demand problem; Occasional Butler solved it by recruiting both butlers and customers through Gumtree before getting banned from the platform.
- –Startup valuations are often more art than science, based on future opportunity and comparable sales rather than current profits, especially pre-revenue.
- –Seeking a mentor who has personally raised capital is described as a 'game changer' for founders, especially women facing unconscious bias when asking for money.
- –Founders should focus on strengths and outsource weaknesses once a business can afford it, rather than spending excessive time trying to fix weak areas like email management or admin.
Questions this episode answers
Why did Jodie Imam rebrand Depot8 from 'coworking' to 'shared office'?
When they advertised as a 'coworking space' they got no interest, so they switched to 'shared office' which better matched what customers were actually searching for and wanted—a place to get work done without the beer-on-tap, Friday drinks, or lunchtime yoga culture associated with coworking.
How did Occasional Butler get its first customers and supply of workers?
After a slow start (including a bizarre first job asking someone to eat Doritos and take a photo, posted by an Airtasker tester), Jodie Imam began posting jobs for butlers on Gumtree, which brought in hundreds of workers; she then realized those same people could be customers too and posted customer jobs on Gumtree as well, until Gumtree banned them for effectively building a competing marketplace.
What happened to Occasional Butler in the end?
Occasional Butler was acquired by Airtasker, which had launched just a week after Occasional Butler and had already raised $1.5 million before launch; the acquisition was described as bittersweet but a good outcome, occurring while Imam was pregnant with her third child.
Episode TranscriptShow
Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.
Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 607, and we've got Jodie Imam in the building. What's going on, Jodie?
Jodie: Welcome, welcome. Thank you, thank you. Um, exciting.
Tommy: The, uh, so you created Depot 8.
Jodie: Yes.
Tommy: Which is, um, a co-working space essentially, right?
Jodie: Yes, that's right.
Josh: The big question is, do you have biscuits on tap?
Jodie: No, bring your own biscuits.
Josh: That's a good way of biscuits. It's a good thing because it's sustainable.
Jodie: We know what happens if you offer to make biscuits.
Josh: Yeah, it's an absolute trap.
Jodie: Yeah. Although today we did have our regular coffee and brownies.
Tommy: Oh, yeah.
Josh: All right. You got some goods.
Jodie: Yeah. Yeah. We've got to limit them. Yeah. Yeah.
Tommy: Well, because it feels like coworking spaces, it's been a trend, like, say, in the last 3 years. And then with everything that happened with WeWork, it seems like it's sort of muddied the whole industry, what people perceive. It used to be this sort of fun community thing.
Josh: But yeah, in saying that, you've had it for a while.
Jodie: Yeah. So how did it start? Yeah, it's interesting because we saw this trend in the US, coworking taking off, 2,000 spaces opening in the US in that year, in 2012, and thought, oh, that's brilliant, what a great way to work. And, you know, there was a warehouse right near our house and so we're like, oh, fantastic, let's make it into a coworking space. And then we started advertising coworking and getting no hits like at all. So we actually had to go back and start calling it shared office because people weren't looking for coworking. Yeah. And now it feels like we need to go back and call it a shared office because it's not the beer on tap, it's not the Friday drinks, it's not the lunchtime yoga. It's not— we don't have all of that. We just have people who want to come and share an office and work together and get the job done.
Josh: Well, yeah, because what the beer and the yoga and the biscuits and it did a good job at the PR around sort of getting people into these spaces, but doesn't necessarily equate to a good business model. Is that—
Jodie: Well, I just don't think it's for everyone. Yeah. So a lot of our members are, I think, naturally our age. They've got families. They just want to get their work done. They've got clients. It's not a startup. It's a business. They've got customers they need to produce work for, and then they want to get home with their families. So they don't really Want the rah-rah?
Josh: It's not for everyone. The rah-rah is not for everyone.
Tommy: No, I appreciate that. I definitely— well, that's it. You were speaking my language when you describe it because it feels like with the rah-rah, other things happen. Like, I could only imagine the amount of sort of people that go through the door, some of, of some of these co-working spaces, because they go in with it like they've got their startup t-shirts and they've got everything that they like. They've got the business card that says they're a co-founder and they tick all these boxes, but they don't actually have a sustainable business and they end up sort of leaving. Have you noticed that by setting up Depot8 the way you have that it is a different type?
Jodie: Yeah, well, I guess it wasn't deliberate. We really were, it was kind of a panic decision to open it in the first place because we already had a business and we were like, oh my God, this thing's going to take a while to make money. Let's do something else that makes money hopefully quicker. So we didn't really overanalyze the whole purpose of it. And then we just, we didn't try to make it, it's for this type of person or that type. It was for anyone, anyone who wanted to come in. So naturally, I guess you just, that law of attraction, you know, people that are similar to us have naturally been attracted to the space. And so we're a similar kind of demographic. And yeah, as I said, small businesses getting work done as opposed to startup with, yeah, we've had startups, but yeah, they don't last long because we're there. It's hard to pay the rent when you've got no customers.
Josh: I love that when you've got, you've created a business, which I want to talk to you about, but at the same time you're thinking it's not going to be a while before we make money. Let's create another business.
Jodie: Yes.
Josh: It seems most people would be like, oh, I should go get a job to just work, not create. I mean, that's, that's true entrepreneurial spirit, I think. And you've started it with your husband.
Jodie: Yeah, that's right.
Josh: Which is, you know, working relationships with your partners is another thing in itself.
Jodie: Well, we were too far gone. We'd already, we'd already jumped off the cliff, so we'd sold the house, quit our jobs. So we were already, you know, needed to be in the business that we were building. So we didn't want, we couldn't, a job wasn't really an option. And yeah, I guess we still had some cash to burn.
Tommy: So what inspired you to make that leap and to do your own thing?
Jodie: I think I always wanted to do my own thing from, from very early on. So It was the catalyst for the real change was having babies. So I'd had one baby already and was the general manager for Leona Edmiston, which was a fast-growing retail fashion business. And it was my baby up until that point. So then juggling a real baby and the baby that I created over the 10 years together with Jeremy and Leona was a bit much.
Josh: And then which one was more demanding, the real life one or the— it's almost real life as well.
Jodie: Definitely the business was more demanding, but then I fell pregnant again and I knew by that stage there's no way I could have a toddler, a real baby, and then the business. So I couldn't do justice to any of it. And that's when that was the catalyst to say, okay, let's create something on our own that we've got the true flexibility to run around the family.
Tommy: And so that was Occasional Butler.
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: I love that name.
Tommy: Yeah. It's, I mean, it's one of those ones where it's like we saw stuff happening like TaskRabbit in the US. How much, And you talk about the co-working spaces and seeing it happening. Were you spending time in the US? Were you seeing all these things?
Jodie: No, really. And I admire people who do the side hustle and still keep the job. I just couldn't do it. I just was too tired at the end of the day to start working on something else. And so for us, we just quit everything, literally packed up, sold the house, quit everything, and then did well on the sale, went to Bali and just sat there with a blank piece of paper and a margarita and, you know, tried to figure out just literally blank piece of paper writing down all sorts of ideas of what we might want to do as a business. And then we got back and moved to Melbourne. So we were in Sydney before that, and I was pregnant, so we had this looming deadline. I knew I was having a cesarean, so we knew when the baby was coming, and we decided by the time of that date, whoever had the best business plan on an idea, that's what we're going to go with.
Josh: Oh wow, how many ideas were thrown around?
Jodie: Oh, it's about 6, 6 from all sorts of things. There was, there was like a food truck, one of Turkish Gözleme kind of things. There was some fashion ideas, marketplaces for, you know, vintage wear and stuff you can buy at the markets you couldn't buy online. MM Gems. We had all sorts of— and so the better business model, it was, it was between the fashion marketplace idea and Occasional Butler.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah, hang on, I might move that up a little bit. And so what makes a good business model on a piece of paper? Like crunching numbers and seeing them sort of go up is one way, but what are you actually looking for?
Jodie: Well, that was one of the biggest things. We had this awesome looking spreadsheet going up very quickly. And I think it just resonated with us because we had had a similar problem ourselves with renovating our place in Sydney. We bought into an expensive suburb in a badly run-down house and we we didn't have much money left, so we were trying to fix it all on that much money. And that's when we had the problem of, you know, you can't get a tradie to just come and tile one wall, you know, that sort of stuff. Well, they wouldn't come without a minimum call-out fee, and that's— that was what we were trying to solve, that problem of just getting a small job done, like just a little, little— just clean the oven, we don't— we can clean the rest sort of thing. And that's— but that's when we started to research what other trends were happening in the US.
Tommy: And the first thing that you actually do outside of having your business plan, was there hiring someone? Is it finding a developer? What'd you do?
Jodie: Yeah, so then we decided, okay, this is it.
Josh: And then what is that actual decision? Like, are you just high-fiving with your husband? Like, I think we got it. Or is it like, yeah, we're committing, we're buying the domain at least, or something like that, the business name.
Jodie: Yeah, I mean, I can't remember exactly, but it was first was, okay, this is the deadline and we'd like this, but now let's have the baby. And then we gave ourselves 6 weeks to recover from that and just not do too much. But I guess percolating the idea, my husband came up with the name and yeah, we would have jumped in and bought the domain pretty quickly. And then, and then yeah, we just went into full scoping mode, like who's going to build it, what's it going to look like? And my husband's project manager in telco industry. So very sort of technical, not coding, but technical background and very like over-engineers everything. So had every single possible scenario that could happen all scoped out. And then yeah, it was the search for looking for who could develop it for us.
Tommy: Did you have people around you that you could actually bounce ideas off?
Jodie: Oh, we asked a few mates and when they sort of looked at our business plan and looked at the idea and spoke to us and said, oh, We don't really, don't think so. We were like, okay, that's enough from you then.
Josh: I mean, yeah, cause you could also really take on advice. And yeah, cause you could look for people that are positive about the idea, which is not necessarily what you need. Or are you with an idea? Are you looking to get some stimulus? Whether it's, I don't think it is. And you're like, okay, great. That someone doesn't like it. Or, and then finding someone that does. Is that what your aim is when you have a business model on paper that you actually want to show it to people, or—
Jodie: Well, in hindsight, it should be potential customers, like, who is going to actually use this? But we, we, we learned the hard way. But in hindsight, you definitely would go and talk to potential customers, and lots of them, to see if they would use it, and if so, how.
Tommy: And so you're talking off-air about just that, and maybe, uh, building something and hoping that people would come. When was the first sign that you realized, hang on, maybe, maybe we've missed the mark?
Jodie: Um, so probably took us 3 months to scope, 6 months to build. Then we, um, we had hired someone, a market— part-time marketing assistant. We'd done all this sort of pre-marketing before it was ready. We had Facebook going, and then we announced it on Facebook, and we got our first job posted in the first hour of going live. And the job was buy a packet of Doritos, eat it, and take a photo.
Josh: Yeah. It seemed, I mean, you'll take the transaction if that's what people are wanting. And did you, could you see where this was coming from on the back end?
Jodie: I was just pacing around the lounge, around the kitchen, just what the hell? You know, we're trying to build something here to help young families. What the hell is this?
Tommy: Like, and what was it? Were there a lot of those transactions after that? Like, did you have to? Start to create policies. So you just didn't have lots of photos of feet?
Jodie: Well, it could have been a good thing. I was actually a bit more calm and started researching in the backend and found out that that job was posted by the user testing guy at Airtasker. Ah, yeah. So we dutifully went and did the job and then found out we had a bug in the payment system and we couldn't actually process the $5 that was put up for the job.
Josh: Yeah.
Jodie: And then, um, Yeah. After that, we didn't have a job for months. Like, it was really, really terrible.
Josh: Oh, wow.
Jodie: Yeah. Because we really hadn't built anything except for the tech, anything, you know, as far as the community.
Josh: And so was there a point where it did change?
Jodie: And yeah.
Josh: And what was that feeling like? I bet you it's great. But you celebrated with Doritos.
Jodie: Yeah. It took a long time and it was stressful as anything. And we're trying every single type of thing. And we'd hired this marketing assistant who came from a political background. So she had us out on the street handing out lollies and postcards. We had a mascot, you know, we're trying to do public debates. Yeah. But then eventually it was a case of really make or break. If we didn't get this thing happening, we're going to have to give up on it. And so it was just, it was just looking for anything that would get it going. And in the end it was Gumtree. So I started posting jobs for butlers on Gumtree and then they started coming across in hundreds, like just heaps and heaps of butlers signing up. And then Eventually the butlers started becoming customers. So one butler would build a trampoline and then post a job to have a waiter at their party. And so then I realized, well, actually, if the butlers who've come from Gumtree are customers, then potentially the customers would come from Gumtree as well. So then I started posting jobs for customers on Gumtree and they started coming in droves. And then Gumtree kicked us off.
Josh: Oh, did they? And what's that moment like? I mean, was it violating their services or—
Jodie: Well, effectively moving one marketplace to another.
Josh: That's brilliant. It's cheeky, but it's brilliant.
Tommy: It makes a lot of sense. Did you have revenue goals at this point?
Jodie: Yes, which we're nowhere near hitting. Yeah.
Tommy: And so like, what did it look like? Were you looking at, say, how many transactions were happening through the site?
Jodie: Yes, I think I had, you know, it was just honest because a small percentage of a small transaction. So I had this beautiful looking spreadsheet, but we were having to hit like 100 transactions a day by the second week kind of thing, and we were still at zero. So yeah, that was That took a lot of re-expectation setting.
Josh: What is it? What's your sort of view on setting these? I mean, things like $200,000, $100,000 in the first couple of weeks. Like, did you know that that was kind of crazy? Because you've made it up. Because you have made it up.
Jodie: That's crazy.
Josh: That's all projections are really, made up.
Jodie: We said, okay, if we're going to invest all this, take the risk, quit our jobs, you know, in 5 years' time when we sell this thing, we want it to be worth X. And then we worked back from there.
Tommy: And so it's the user was you in regards to like you're solving your problem, which is like we want to make X amount of cash. Do you reckon part of it is like you're also very early within the Australian market?
Jodie: That's right, yeah.
Tommy: What have you learned about timing?
Jodie: Yeah, I mean, I think we were both with Deaf Away and Occasional Butler a bit ahead of the curve as far as there weren't marketplaces. Coworking was brand new. There's advantages in that you can be established when it's— when the demand does come. But then it's just the disadvantages. You have so much education that you have to do. Like, we were having to educate people. We didn't realise this, that we would have to educate people to trust their neighbours to do jobs. Like, they'll trust Jim's Mowing, but they wouldn't trust someone down the road. And we didn't realise that that would be such a big behavioural change that we'd have to overcome. And that education piece is huge.
Tommy: It's pre-Uber. Like even when you think about when Uber first started and people's sort of hesitation around getting into that.
Josh: Did you look at pivoting the business, you know, when it wasn't working or you weren't having jobs? Is that a moment where you're like, shit, we need to shift this in some respect? Like we need to move direction?
Jodie: Not still, not, no, still very, we're so naive. Like we just were just so headstrong. We had to make it work. Down the track then, you know, but we had a steady flow of jobs before we then thought, well, actually we're not going to be able to do this on our own steam forever. We're going to have to raise some money. And so that's when we really started to be more analytical about it and where we were and start to talk about pivots and all the different options.
Tommy: How do you ask for money?
Jodie: Again, some— a wild— you know, we did it all the wrong way. We went to an advisory firm who said that they would go and ask for the money for us. And I was like, oh, I feel good. I don't want to go and ask for the money. Perfect. So we paid them a lot of money to go and ask for the money, but they didn't in the end.
Josh: So how did they ask you for the money?
Jodie: Pretty directly.
Josh: Give me the money, I'll go ask for money and then be good.
Tommy: That's right. So things like investors and equity, when it's you and your husband, it's one thing. Getting other people involved Do you have to change the business, like the company structure, much to actually allow for that type of thing?
Jodie: Yeah, well, again, I had no idea. Like when you sign— when you start a company, you have a registration and there's 2 shares. We had 1 each worth $10 each. And then all of a sudden when you want to raise capital, magically you can dilute those shares and 700,000 shares appear. Yeah.
Tommy: So after the advisor stuff, did you actually pursue it or Or did that end up being put to the side?
Jodie: So one of the strategies from this advisor was to appoint a board and the board members would become investors. And so they knew that. And so we advertised for board positions and it was amazing actually. We had some amazing people want to be on our board for no pay and potentially give us money.
Tommy: Dumb train, did you have the title there?
Josh: On platform.
Jodie: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was 3 partners. It was the AICD website as well as Women on Boards.
Tommy: And so you put out this request and how many people put their hand up?
Jodie: We had 100 people apply.
Tommy: That was how many butlers did you find? If you could convert them to butlers.
Jodie: That's right.
Josh: Business is good. And so 100 people putting their hand up to give you money or 100 people to be on the board?
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: Yeah, with no money exchange yet.
Jodie: That's right.
Josh: And so, and then did you fill it? Did you fill the board with those people?
Jodie: Yeah, we did. Yeah, we, we chose 3. Yeah. And so that was, yeah, that was good. By that point we had a steady flow of business and we're growing and we'd built a community and it was now what do we do to really scale it and to raise capital. So yeah.
Tommy: And so when a business is just getting started, you have the projections of where you think it's going to go. But then when it comes to actually defining what equity within the business is worth, like if, you know, X percentage or whatever, how did you come up with a number? Like when you're speaking with, say, the board and you're trying to get buy-in, is there a conversation at that point of like, your percentage right now is worth X based on this valuation?
Jodie: Yeah, I mean, typically how it happened for us is in the end, because we were so early and it was very hard to value, We just decided to make it more of an advisory role than a formal board. So it was, they had all agreed that let's get it to a point where we can value it and then we can decide the shares.
Josh: And then, so getting to a valuation, 'cause I mean, you hear of businesses like Uber that are worth X amount of dollars, but they're also in a billion dollars debt or whatever it is, crazy. But it seems counterintuitive to value something high price when it doesn't have any profits ever being made.
Tommy: Yeah, who values it, I guess?
Josh: Yeah, is there someone ticking it off or you just send it to the butlers?
Jodie: Give it a number. It's like a black art valuation. It's, yeah, there are models that you can follow, but it's really, yeah, it's based on opportunity. But also, of course, a business that already has cash flows and some historical, it's much more easy to value. And that's why you do see these huge valuations and then the business goes bust or whatever. It's because it is based on future opportunity.
Josh: And so you gave it a valuation based on the performance it had done, or a little bit, but much more about the projection, the projection, the industry, the cap on the industry.
Jodie: Yeah, that's right. Any comparable sales, that sort of stuff is the way, another way. Yeah.
Tommy: What's the, now being on the other side and looking at investment, what's the first question that you ask a potential startup that you might invest in?
Jodie: I guess for me it's, will you eat this pack of Doritos?
Josh: If you don't take the fund, you don't take the fund. And the money probably won't come through.
Jodie: I don't think it's that instant for me. Like, I like to get to know a founder or get to know the business before I would even talk about money. Like, it's— yeah, I think 50% of the equation with a startup is the founder and their tenacity and their drive and their purpose and why they're doing it and that sort of thing first.
Josh: The Dorito thing and the mentioning Air Tasker, because Air Tasker ended up buying your business.
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, that's pretty crazy that that was the first job from someone inside.
Jodie: Full circle.
Tommy: So had they built Air Tasker or was this early days?
Jodie: Yeah, they launched just after us, like the next week. Really?
Tommy: Yeah. And so what was it for you?
Josh: It was probably the founder, right?
Tommy: Like who?
Jodie: Tim Fong. Yeah, it was Tim. No, there was a user testing guy. They did launch with They'd already raised $1.5 million before they launched. So yeah, they could afford to use a testing guy.
Josh: Yeah.
Tommy: What did it tell you when you saw them launch a week or two later? Did that validate that you could be on something or did that scare?
Jodie: Well, we weren't very wise back then. And so that scared us a lot. Oh my God. No, because we was going to be the TaskRabbit of Australia. And then there was another one. But it is a validation, definitely, because especially the education that you have to do with something so new. If there are other people doing the education as well, then it's easier.
Josh: At the sale of a business, you know, something that is your baby. I mean, you've got, did you have 3 at that time or?
Jodie: 2.
Josh: So you got 2, you got 3 babies essentially. One's the business, 2 of the, actually 3, you got your husband and 2 babies. What's that like parting with a baby?
Jodie: Yeah, it's emotional.
Tommy: Yeah, selling a baby.
Josh: I couldn't get rid of Bodhi.
Jodie: No, no, it's not quite the same. It's not quite the same as that. Um, yeah, emotional, but it was a good outcome. And it's— and you're just weighing out, what if we, if we do, it'll be— we get this. If we don't, we might get this, we might not, you know. Um, so it— for us it was— and I was pregnant with our third baby at the time, and it was a really good, um, outcome and good timing for us.
Tommy: How much do you think about the narrative of all this stuff? Because it seems like sometimes if it's not working and the exit doesn't have to be that, like just an exit where you come out unscathed is a good exit. How much pressure is there when you're selling a business to try and create this narrative or even the external perspective that if you sell, you must be rolling it at all?
Josh: It's a win.
Tommy: Yeah.
Jodie: Sorry.
Tommy: So like, I guess the, what you felt about it at the time, did it feel like a massive win or like if you're viewing, okay, in 5 years' time we want it to be worth this.
Jodie: Yeah. Yeah.
Tommy: And then you're selling for a small percentage of whatever that potential was.
Jodie: Yeah.
Tommy: How does, how does that feel?
Jodie: Well, it wasn't, yeah. So it wasn't a euphoric, you know, we're off to Hawaii for the rest of our lives. That's for sure. But, I think it felt back to Bali, which is great. Back to Bali. Yeah, back to Bali instead. Exactly. No, but yeah, so it was, it was a bittersweet in a way. Like it was really good outcome. We were really happy. There was a lot of press about it and that was one of the things for Air Tasker at the time. They were about to take on another capital round of about $20 million and some of that was from overseas. And so for them, you know, it was really great for their storey to be acquiring an established business as part of the growth. Did you have to work?
Tommy: To work within the business?
Josh: We didn't.
Jodie: There was the option, but we didn't have to because we'd literally been mirroring each other's work. And so what did they take from it?
Tommy: Do you look at Airtasker now and say, oh, that's the— that button?
Jodie: No, very seamless. Like, yeah, all the branding and all the tech that they had already their own. So it was more the community that was the value for them.
Josh: And so do they— do you think, like, are they going to shut a lot of it down? They're going to like you know, they're kind of just trying to get that out of the ethos to be able to—
Jodie: Yeah, well, I think that's— yeah, I think that's a really great thing. We're lucky that it's grown on and become bigger and bigger and bigger. And it's part of, you know, our vision is, is being, you know, felt more broadly than what— so, you know, we get to see our vision continue, which if Airtasker had failed, it would be a bit— it would be more sad than it being really successful.
Josh: Yeah. Because I mean, some people's businesses get bought just purely to get them out of the bloody— yeah, wipe out the opponents by just making it a part of the business.
Jodie: Yeah, that's— yeah.
Josh: So it gives— yeah, that's kind of nice. Your baby lives on.
Jodie: Yeah, exactly. That's right.
Josh: You get to see it from afar.
Tommy: You mentioned when looking for advisors or board members, you went to what— which organization?
Jodie: Women in Australian Industry of Company Directors, AICD. So that's an organisation that's they, you can do a course to be a company, to learn about being a company director, and they also have job boards for looking for a position as a company director. And then they have a sort of a sister website at the time, which was Women on Boards, which is a different organization. So it was positioned to us at the time as a sister organization, but I think, I don't know if that's just the job board side of it.
Tommy: What was, what was the experience, especially at that time, being a woman in tech? Was it something that was so obvious that you could see differences, or is it just your reality? So you don't really—
Jodie: Yeah, I guess it was again just that naivety and just doing our thing. And at the time we thought we were running a small business. I mean, we wanted to build tech and wanted to be global and scalable, but at the time it was a small business still. And so, yeah, we sort of got thrust into this world of startups and capital raising and we just didn't, you know, know of before. Um, but women in tech is niche. Like, there are not that many women in tech.
Tommy: And, and how does that actually express itself within the industry, do you think? Where do you notice it?
Jodie: Especially when— especially, well, now at SBE, we're supporting women growing tech businesses. It's, uh, it's, it's at that point where they're really looking for big capital, you know, injections. And that's where it's noticeable that it's harder to be a woman in tech when you're raising capital.
Tommy: Where do you find that, say, an organisation that's specifically looking after women in that space, where do they need more assistance? Where's the area that you find that, whether it's sort of, is it in asking for the cash? Is it in like, where does it sort of fit?
Jodie: Oh, it's just the unconscious bias that they experience. So it's— I mean, at SBE we have a support network of, you know, women and men supporting these women who have got amazing businesses and incredible drive, but they still are up against this unconscious bias when it comes to asking for money.
Tommy: Do you think that there was— there unconscious things that you had felt throughout the process that you now realise was being part of that system.
Jodie: Sorry, so what— it's not my or the woman's unconscious, it's the man.
Tommy: So I guess like, as in, that also projects the other way. So in the sense of like, when a system's telling you a certain thing, if you're not seeing— if you're not seeing women in tech, you're not seeing— like, that ends up coming out.
Jodie: That's true. Yeah.
Tommy: Um, and so did you notice that even within the space of the unconscious bias from the industry that you ended up sort of not doing a bunch of things because you don't actually see women doing it?
Jodie: Yeah, for sure. Hence getting an advisor to go and get money for me because I, yeah, had a fear that I didn't want to be that in that room asking for that, asking for the money.
Tommy: And so do you think like what's been the, the development or the, the learning in that? Like what could, if someone, um, is starting a a business right now and they're really aware of all of this stuff.
Jodie: Yeah.
Tommy: Obviously it can feel a little bit helpless because it's like, well, people need— the system needs to change, people need to change, decision makers need to change. Is there anything, any learning that you've had that has empowered you through that?
Jodie: Yeah, absolutely. First thing is there's no one else that can ask for money for your business better to ask for it than yourself. Like no one else is going to be able to sell it as well as you. And the crucial thing is to seek out mentorship from people who have done it before. And that's absolutely the game changer. If you can go and speak to another woman who's just raised capital in her career, has raised capital, and you can talk to her and get that advice, then that makes a massive difference.
Tommy: Tommy and I talk about whether co-founders should be CEOs. And so whether, like, obviously some co-founders just assume that role because they have to at the time. Where do you see it all fitting in regards to, do you find that most co-founders make good CEOs?
Jodie: I think to a point. I think mostly the founder needs to do all the things at the start and drive it to a certain point. But once it gets beyond that point, it starts to become more corporate. If there's, you know, 30+ employees and they're starting to be needing to be put in place processes and cultures and divisions and that sort of thing, that's when it's time to question, am I still the right person? To run this business now that it's more, more of a corporate-sized company.
Josh: I mean, people probably get far down the line of doing it all and being the leader, and it gets even harder to sort of go the other way and release the control or handing over the keys. Yes, to somebody else.
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: I mean, being alongside your best mate, your husband, in business, how is that? What are the, what are the pros and cons of being in a business with your life partner?
Jodie: Well, definitely the pros are you can get home at the end of the day and talk about the same thing and whinge about the same thing and you're in the same situation as opposed to, oh, my boss today. And it's like, oh God, do I have to hear about your boss again?
Tommy: You know?
Jodie: You know, and, you know, I've got to take the kids. I'm really sorry. I'll be back. I understand. They're my kids too. You know, have you picked up your kids?
Josh: They're mine too. That happens.
Jodie: So that all that understanding and just being on the same path and, you know, working towards the same goal and everything's, you know, together. And, you know, this is the person that you chose to be with that you love the most out of anyone in the world. And you get to hang out together all the time. So that's, that's a really great thing. On the con side, I think it's, I don't know, it's just the, I guess it's just the reverse of that. Sometimes you just don't get any space on your own. There's nothing that's yours individually. So everything is the combined and you don't have your own thing. So I guess, you know, it's important to have your own— go and play netball on a Thursday night, or, you know, do other things that just give you some, some individuality.
Josh: How much, um, in— like, I always think about, in— if you end up in a business and it's— you've got there by it being something that you love or you're passionate about, or you just see the opportunity, but then you kind of have that step back of what does it all really mean like for the scheme of life and it, you know, the grand scheme of, you know, perspective shifts of having kids or seeing what really matters? Where does that sit with you in terms of what it all means for your journey and where, and where it fits?
Jodie: I think one of the main reasons that I wanted to start running my own businesses was, you know, I started in corporate and I saw a whole lot of redundancies pretty early on, and men and women who'd been there 30 years, you know, their whole life, and then suddenly redundant. It's probably not a bad payout.
Josh: Not a bad payout.
Tommy: Yeah. I have this redundancy dream, which we, I think we've got a skewed perspective of redundancy, but I think like redundancy could be at like if you get paid to then start your next thing, but it's being able to have the next thing.
Jodie: Yeah. And I think if you've been that institutionalised as well, you might not necessarily have what you need to do that. And they were devastated. And I sort of realized, my God, they've worked really hard as back in the day, this was telco when mobile phones were going crazy and it wasn't even bad times necessarily, but they're still cutting costs and cutting out people. I just realised you can't rely on a corporate even in the good days. They don't care ultimately about you. It's all about making money and growing the company and they don't care about each individual when they're big global companies. And so I thought, I just never want to get to that point where I'm 50 and I'm out of a job. And then what do I do? I'm stuck like So I just want to be able to build up my own revenue streams that would be, you know, I would never face that.
Tommy: It seems like a unique perspective because many people end up as employees because they think that's the safe— yeah, the safe option. Yeah. Was that a challenging moment where— did you think that it was a safe option before all those redundancies?
Jodie: Well, I didn't think anything else of it. Like, you know, you go to school, you go to uni, they spit you out into a graduate programme at the other end, you don't know I didn't think about it until I saw that. That made me think about it. But Steve Sammartino, I was watching one of his talks the other day and he says it so well, like, if, you know, if you're a business and would you— if I said to you, you've got one customer, like, is that really cool? You've got one customer. Are you happy with that? Yeah, probably not. No. And so, but that's the thing with, with your time. If you've got one job, you're dedicating your whole time to that one job, so it's effectively like having one customer. It's pretty risky.
Josh: I mean, you're seeing a lot of startups and, and businesses pop up. Are you, uh, are you inspired by what's the shift of what's happening with more smaller, you know, people doing their own thing, choosing their own path across the board versus the sort of older styled structure of the big corporate businesses employing so many people?
Jodie: Yeah, absolutely. There's such a shift, and even it's at the school level, you know, entrepreneurship is becoming more and more a topic. And, you know, for my kids, I'd want them out there with their lemonade stands when they're older, as soon as they're old enough.
Tommy: Competition now with the lemonade stand.
Josh: Yeah, good thing.
Jodie: That's right. That's right.
Tommy: And so the, the school system, obviously they can add the entrepreneurial side of things. They can add these little classes. How do you feel about the system in general?
Jodie: Well, um, it's a big question.
Tommy: How did you do? How did you do?
Jodie: I think, um, I love school. I'm a bit of a studious, nerdy type.
Josh: Was it the structure? The—
Jodie: it's probably the structure. Yeah, it probably is. Um, but I think you can't rely on the school, um, to do everything to educate your kid. Like, you— it's, it's part of it. It's only one small part of it. I don't get too stressed about what they learn at school and what they don't learn and what school they're going to be going to and all that sort of stuff, because I think you can teach them just as much in external activities as they learn in school.
Tommy: What about homework? I used to hate homework.
Jodie: Oh, I mean, my kids are still in primary school. I don't seem to do much homework.
Tommy: Is that a thing now? Like, I think there isn't that pushback against homework where it's like kids need time for their side hustles.
Jodie: You know, like lemonades.
Josh: Seriously, getting home and doing 2 hours of homework. That's hard.
Tommy: I had the fight with my vice principal because I was doing 30 hours a week when I was doing my freelance editing. And it was that— I feel like that would be a very conversation, a very common conversation now with students and teachers.
Josh: Seems more like, go and get a job. Like, if you were to do some work and make some money outside, it was like Maccas was the big one.
Tommy: It's like, if you had a job at Maccas, you learnt all of these other skills.
Josh: Schools.
Jodie: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Tommy: Did you have any job like that growing up?
Jodie: Yeah, lots.
Josh: Yeah.
Tommy: What was your first ever job?
Jodie: Um, at Australia's Wonderland in Western Sydney.
Josh: What is that?
Jodie: It was a fun park.
Tommy: Oh really? That's it. I was gonna say theme park.
Jodie: Yeah, theme park. And I was so shy. Oh my God, I, you know, wouldn't say boo. And a friend of mine got me this job where I'd have to welcome people as they came into the fun park.
Tommy: That's the best job. I wanted that at Big W. Yeah, just like, because no one ever asks.
Jodie: No, I had to stop them and ask. I had to get them to take a photo, pose for a photo so that at the end of the day they could come back and buy the keychain. So that was some character building.
Josh: I love the people in America that do that and they're just so charismatic, like they hire almost actors. They probably are in Los Angeles.
Tommy: Yes.
Josh: Like, just out of work actors.
Tommy: Everything's a photo. You can get a photo like like before you go into Alcatraz, you get a photo in front of a green screen and then they give you the photo of you're on Alcatraz. It's amazing.
Josh: I went to Legoland on the weekend, last weekend. Have you been there?
Jodie: No, I haven't.
Josh: You should go, but that is like, it's like a wonderland.
Tommy: Do you like Lego?
Jodie: Do I like Lego? I do, yeah.
Josh: I mean, you don't even need to like it. Like, I wouldn't say I like Lego, but there's Lego everywhere and it's, you can see in this little ride and there's like, it's just unbelievable, but it's sort of there was people at the front welcoming. And so you go through these sort of doors into this maze, into the, you know, party area. Yeah, it's really crazy.
Tommy: The, um, with kids and where they're going to end up and what they're like, what the future of work looks like. Uh, obviously what you were doing was playing into the gig economy. And I guess now that as it's starting to happen more and more, we see some of the negative sides of it where it's like people forgetting that they need to keep their own tax or even, um, sort of the, the legal issues around, okay, is this person an employee? Is it a—
Josh: is—
Tommy: are they a contractor? How much do you think that the law, society, government needs to actually evolve for where all this is going?
Jodie: Oh yeah, that needs to catch up quickly. It's very slow to catch up to what's going on, and that's why there is all this controversy. I think for me as well, one of the things I knew early on was that you need to learn about money, and that's something schools don't teach you. And so I went and taught myself a bit more about money, and I think that's, that's a, that's the most important thing. If people understood more about their own money, then they'd be more equipped to manage those things.
Josh: What was something missing for you, do you think, in the, in learning about money?
Jodie: Uh, well, you know, I guess it was just really having that, because knowledge is power in a way, and if you, if you have the knowledge, then you have the confidence to then go and do things. So I went and did a master's in financial management to learn how to trade on the stock exchange and learn about—
Tommy: The way that you described it first is like you did like a little course or something.
Jodie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tommy: One day at a TAFE or whatever.
Josh: I was thinking I had a chance, not my mom.
Tommy: And so what did you walk away with with that? Like what was the biggest learning?
Jodie: I think it's just building that confidence. Like if you've got, if you have those tools and you have the knowledge, then you have the confidence. So I've always had my own bank accounts. I've always been in control of my money. It's never been, I don't know where my money is. And I also started trading and so started a stock portfolio and that was a good takeout.
Tommy: How do you get started with that?
Josh: Like what do you like?
Tommy: Because obviously like I've done the whole finance, I went to a financial advisor once.
Josh: I thought you're gonna say I read The Barefoot Investor.
Tommy: I did that too.
Jodie: I did that too.
Tommy: I went to a financial advisor and it was sort of like, oh, just like a general conversation and they're like, oh, come, come back in a, in a few weeks or whatever and, and we'll we'll tell you what we think you should do. And then they handed over an invoice for $800, but they hadn't been clear on what was going on. And it was all— it felt like, I don't know what the deal is with all of this. What's the commission are they making? How do I even see how these stocks are going? What's the— being someone who is independent, who really owns all of this, where do you think we could start to do this independently, do you think? What's like, if I wanted to start getting stock or starting to invest, what would that look like?
Jodie: Well, this, it's back then even there was CommSec and E-Trade through ANZ. Like there's tech now so you can jump on and you can start buying shares really quite easily.
Tommy: Is there anything you need to know? Is it like a sports bet? I've only used Sportsbet once. Is it like sports bet?
Jodie: Is it just you lose?
Tommy: No, sorry. Because I thought about it, I was travelling like a year ago or whatever and I was like, saw Tesla, like they were $218 or $318, whatever it was. I was like, I reckon if I get in there, I think Tesla's going to be great. And I do that like passive investing, which is just saying, I did the same thing in 2012 with Apple. I'm like, I reckon Apple's going to be good. And of course these things end up being good, but unless you're actually investing What does it look like? Like, when should— when do you think personally someone should consider putting some cash down?
Jodie: Well, what I did, and I guess what I'm doing at the moment in the startup world, is I just had a, um, uh, just a play, a play portfolio. So you can just put— set up a portfolio on one of these sites and just pretend, like, to say, okay, I just bought 100 shares, like a mock sort of portfolio. And then you just watch that for a while, and then you can you know, test your skills, I guess, before you actually put any money. Okay.
Josh: I think about these things as, you know, like if you want to get an amazing body, like in the bodybuilding space, it's like you actually have to get really educated on how to eat food, when to eat food, the right types, and training.
Tommy: It's protein.
Josh: But it's the same interest level, and I've done that, right? I got super into understanding macros and, you know, all of that stuff, and when, how much and it worked. But I feel like you need to have a similar level of interest.
Jodie: Yes.
Josh: Because I hear Victoria Devine talking to us about finance. It's her thing. She gets it. She knows it. I'm just like, I don't know if I have the interest level that you do. And I see that you need something, a strong interest.
Tommy: But shouldn't we all? Like, if that's like our biggest gateway to independence, we so should. If like cash is the whole thing, if like we were, if like like if we spend all of our time working for this thing that's money, if there's an easier way to do it, like, no, of course.
Josh: Like, that's, that's sounds like, that sounds like we just want the answer. What is it?
Jodie: I don't know the easy way.
Josh: It's so logical, right? But I think there would be so many people like myself that it's like, how do you get yourself excited? So we know that, but it's like, how do you get yourself interested? And for you, you went back to uni and got a degree in it, but there had to have been some level of interest. Yeah, I think if you say to somebody, do you want to be financially secure? Everyone would say yes.
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: But then it's like, are you up for doing everything required and learning and understanding? A lot of people probably aren't.
Jodie: Yes.
Josh: But then we still have to exist and make money and we want, we have dreams of, you know, traveling, all this stuff. It's like, it's a hard, it's hard.
Jodie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, it's such a good point. Like if you're not interested probably managing a stock portfolio isn't necessarily the thing. Although, you know, there are a lot of set-and-forget stocks that you can invest in, so where you don't have to really be watching it. But you have to be very interested to be a day trader.
Tommy: Do you use Uber Eats much?
Jodie: Not that much.
Tommy: That's good. Well, I just, I feel— no, I just feel like I, I have a lot— I get a lot of Uber Eats. I feel like if I was to, like, every time instead of I couldn't— like, every time I don't have Uber Eats, I could put the $30.
Jodie: What are you doing when you're having your Uber Eats?
Tommy: I'm just watching TV or YouTube normally.
Josh: Um, exactly. You actually have so much time, right?
Tommy: Like, yeah, and I've got nothing on, really. I don't have kids. I seriously have time.
Josh: And for you, Jodie, with 3 children, uh, have you used kids as an excuse? It sounds like you haven't, to be honest.
Jodie: Ever.
Josh: You had a caesarean, you were trying to get the business plan locked in before. I feel like a lot of people would be like, you know, tired, super tired, lots of responsibility, don't have time to work on shit. What is it? What's it been in your mind around the children and business?
Jodie: Well, I think, you know, my grandmother said it, I'm a workaholic. And for me, work keeps me sane. I've So hats off to women who can stay at home with their kids all day. I just would go insane. I love them, don't get me wrong, but just it's— I like the balance of being able to use— just use my mind and work on something that's, you know, hopefully setting a good example for them as well. But again, we've created a life where the office is a 2-minute walk from our house. So that's where, you know, I'm home fairly early and can sit and have dinner together and still be around. Also have a bit of myself where I can do some work.
Tommy: Perspective on the future, where technology, where all these things are going, specifically in Australia. Are you optimistic or do you think that we're headed into some form of like dot-com-esque bubble?
Jodie: I know I'm an eternal optimist. Yeah, it's all good.
Josh: It's all good.
Jodie: I'm good.
Josh: I actually feel really relieved now.
Tommy: You've got a stock portfolio for your phone.
Jodie: Yeah, I think, you know, there's so many things that are scary, but also there's so many great things too. And I think, you know, people having more of a voice and being, you know, there's so many more people that can really move the dial is really exciting. And from, from kids becoming entrepreneurs to people having a voice on climate change, I mean, out of lobby and all that sort of stuff, I think we're in a— it's a really good position. Like, it's a great time that we're in where we can all have some contribution over. What the future looks like.
Josh: What about shifting sort of the bias of women in tech and women in business? Do you think it's heading in a good direction?
Jodie: I think so, yeah. There's definitely like all the support networks like SBE are in place that weren't before. When I started, there wasn't such a community in place and now there is. And again, there's a voice on it, so it's being called out. And, you know, once it's recognized, then you can do something about it.
Tommy: You're talking about the importance of the founders when it comes to making an investment or the success of a startup. Who are some Australian up-and-coming founders that you've got your eye on at the moment, or that you think are doing great, great things?
Jodie: Um, yeah, there's a couple that have just recently graduated from our early stage programme at SPE. So Susie Jones is one who has a company called Cinch Security, and she is an expert in cybersecurity and has now got this business that is helping small businesses, and she calls it Become Cyber Fit. And so I love it because as a small business operator, it's breaking it down, this huge unknown thing of cybersecurity, into 5-minute sessions so that every, you know, you just have 5 little minute chunks of getting educated on cybersecurity, which is awesome.
Josh: The first, uh, hint to these people is take your password off your computer screen where it's on a sticky note. Yeah, you know, in offices where people just put their little security as their password.
Jodie: Password manager.
Tommy: You use a password manager? Yeah, they're good. Yeah, I started using one a while ago. It's—
Josh: I don't know what I'd do without it. Like, I mean, the cybersecurity thing is you just don't think about it, right? Like, you just log in anywhere, you spend it. It's like especially for business. Like, if we got hacked or something, it's so annoying. I think the smaller the business, the less you actually think about cyber safety, but the greater the impact can be. Well, it's like, what, what could they get? It's like everything.
Jodie: Yeah, they could get everything.
Josh: But what about if you're a business that doesn't have much and you're like, I've got nothing to get, but they can actually destroy you?
Tommy: Well, whatever it is, even look at like a lot of the bigger organisations that we work with now when we're sending, it will be like external, like it will say on their email that it's like coming from an external place because they've had people like spoofing emails pretending to be another business as a supplier or whatever, sending an invoice, getting it paid. It's like a— it can have a huge impact on a business, like if you accidentally pay an invoice that's not meant to be paid.
Josh: Well, they— I was talking to— I know a guy that's— what is it, a black hacker? Like a Black hat, black hat hacker where you work for a bank trying to hack into the system.
Tommy: White hat.
Josh: White hat. White hat. That's the good hacker. I wish I knew a naughty one, but he was saying that I'd kind of be more, you know, more straight, you know, it's like more criminal. They know you're hacking. They know you're hacking. Definitely more criminal. More at stake though. But like the small businesses, the ones that are a bit disjointed that's what they're actually the easy prey for people that are sending over invoices to be paid. It's like you end up just, yeah, it's, it's an easy target. So it needs to, yeah.
Tommy: Anyway, good bit of cyber chat.
Josh: No, I like it. I actually like, I'd like to, is it Susie?
Jodie: Yeah.
Josh: I'd like to meet Susie. Yeah. I'd like to have her on the show.
Tommy: Is she Melbourne based?
Jodie: Yeah, she is.
Tommy: Oh, great. Yeah.
Josh: Maybe she can hack into our—
Tommy: Oh yeah, that would actually be fun.
Josh: Hack of images. Take what you can, Susie.
Tommy: Strengths. How much, how much have you thought about personal strengths throughout your business journey? Like, how well do you know what you're good at?
Jodie: Um, I don't— haven't done that much analysis on it. Have you?
Tommy: Um, yeah, I think I'm constantly— I focus a lot on what I'm not good at.
Jodie: Yeah.
Tommy: And so there's a little bit, I think, that we're trying to work out at the moment the benefits of when do you focus on the bad stuff to make that better versus when do you just resource for that. And just like, if I'm not good with admin, how much time do we spend trying to get me good at admin if I can actually do all this other stuff that can afford having someone to support that?
Jodie: Yeah, absolutely.
Tommy: Um, and so I think that that's—
Josh: it's like doubling down on your strengths.
Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jodie: And it's about valuing your time.
Josh: Exactly.
Jodie: Like if you could double down on your strength and you create more money for yourself, then pay someone to do the stuff you're not really good at.
Tommy: Do you do a lot of outsourcing in your life now?
Jodie: Not that much. No, not that much. But yeah, it's interesting. I just saw a coach for the first time today and he does all this personality stuff and what's naturally your personality and what you're naturally good at. And so we're going down this journey. So I'll be able to answer that question a lot better in a few months' time. But yeah, it's interesting. And when you dig into who you naturally are and what you're naturally interested in, then that's usually what your strengths are.
Tommy: Well, because I feel like we spend a lot of time, yeah, just trying to— because the, um, that our weaknesses are very obvious because it creates, uh, resistance and friction every single day, and it's the thing that we're most normally disappointed with.
Josh: Um, it seems easy to focus, like easy to draw your attention to the weakness.
Tommy: And also when you're a business and you have to communicate, it's like when you have to be uh, interfacing with other people. When it's like, you can get away with hiding your weaknesses when it's just you and you're just dealing with your own shit. But when you actually have like staff and other things, and all of a sudden it's like, I have a choice to like pretend like this is not a thing, or say, oh, actually, yeah, like, I know I'm not good with email. Are you good with email?
Jodie: No. Okay. Neither am I. I'm a people person. I'd rather be out at— well, I tend to be out at meetings and with people than— and my email is a bit out of control.
Josh: What's your, um, what's your unread?
Jodie: 85,000.
Tommy: Sorry, what?
Josh: Surely that's from the days of some kind of automated message from—
Jodie: Yeah, it brings a lot of my friends into states of anxiety when I show them.
Tommy: The chances of getting inbox zero.
Jodie: Well, you can't. No, there's no chance.
Josh: If you have If you have more than 85,000, please let us know. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. You'll get some kind of prize. Maybe.
Tommy: So, 85,000. What are they? Just newsletters?
Jodie: Yeah, they would be. It's unsubscribe. Yeah, well, that's a job.
Tommy: Because there's a whole thing called inbox bankruptcy. Have you heard of inbox bankruptcy? So you just archive every email and you send an email to everyone that's emailed you and say, hi, I've just declared email bankruptcy.
Josh: I'm ignored.
Tommy: That's so funny. I'm ignored. Like, I'm not going to write back. To anything, if it's still relevant, send me another email. It's, it's, it's, it's pretty obnoxious.
Jodie: Yeah.
Tommy: But I actually did. I— did you ever read 4-Hour Workweek?
Jodie: Yeah.
Tommy: Yeah. And so I read 4-Hour Workweek and I was like a freelancer, 18, you know, straight out of high school. I thought I was a bit of a top dog, you know, read 4-Hour Workweek, you know, just my parents were still paying for my petrol.
Jodie: But you're ready to write an ebook.
Tommy: Yeah, exactly. And Um, yeah, I thought I'm gonna set up an autoresponder because I'm only going to cheque my emails 1 hour a day, you know, type of thing. Terrible when trying to build a service business. But I ended up fucking it up and sending just an email to everyone in my contacts saying I only cheque my emails 1 hour rather than trying to do like a rule in Apple Mail.
Josh: Oh gosh, that's so funny.
Tommy: Uh, would love to have you back on talking. I think there's, um, so much happening in Melbourne, especially in 2020 with like, it's grown so much and you've seen from when it was this little speck, um, of a community to where it is now. So it'd be great to get your input over there over the next year.
Jodie: Love to.
Tommy: Thanks for coming on the show. It's a daily talk show, hypethedailytalkshow.com. His email, Mr97willwriteback, because we've actually set him the, the challenge of 30 emails, sending 30 emails a day, right? Because he has a lot of resistance to email because he's 20 years old and he's never Never, not as much as Jodie. If you enjoyed the show, leave us a review. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.
Josh: See ya.
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