Victoria Devine, She's On The Money

Josh: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 596.

Tommy: We've got Victoria Devine in the building.

Victoria: Hello, friends.

Tommy: Welcome to the show. It's, uh, we're recording this on a Friday and this is our first time that we've got wine on the show.

Josh: I feel like I'm hosting an event.

Victoria: Like, this is an event.

Josh: Yeah, this is great.

Victoria: It's a wine tasting because there's multiple bottles.

Tommy: Yeah, well, you've got a couple of guys who know nothing about wine.

Victoria: I'm really, I'm really worried that you expect me to know, but I will have you know, in a previous life I was a sommelier. Sommelier.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: Yeah, legitimately.

Tommy: Like fresh out of school? What do you mean?

Victoria: Yeah, I was 18 years old, was working on the Mornington Peninsula because that's where I grew up. And turns out the sommeliers got paid a fair bit more than the waitresses. So figured I'd do the 2 days of training and then I started telling a lot of people on the peninsula which wines to drink.

Josh: I mean, I was gonna get a peninsula one too, but then, but we'll get to that.

Tommy: You went, you went across the ditch and over to New Zealand. At 18, being a similar— how do you say it?

Victoria: Sommelier.

Tommy: Sommelier.

Josh: You gotta say it if you want to do it.

Tommy: Is it the same as a life coach at 18? Look, not much life experience, not much time spent with the drop.

Victoria: I do believe it was a lot more impressive sounding than it actually was. Because working at a specific winery, you actually got to know what everybody else said about the wine. And at 18, I didn't drink red wine, so I'd just make it up.

Tommy: Were you— do you think you're a good storyteller?

Victoria: Oh, absolutely.

Tommy: And so I mean, that plays into it.

Victoria: Very fruity palate.

Tommy: It's just really dropping in some woodsy. Well, what we're going to do is, Josh, you explain what you've got and then I want Victoria to sip it and give us her sort of take on it. Okay. The highs, the lows, what do you note?

Josh: So did I want to—

Victoria: I told you I just made it up. I'm going to do this once again, but hopefully I can get a rating on how convincing I am.

Tommy: All right.

Josh: And nothing says more posh than the water droplets on a wine glass that's just been washed.

Tommy: I mean, it wouldn't have it at Vaudemont.

Josh: And so at least it's not someone else's. Yeah, exactly. And these are brand new, actually, these glasses, just bought from Woolworths Abbotsford, $15 for 4. Right. So, what I'll do is I'll just, can I tell a little storey for each one? Just very quickly.

Victoria: Are you going to make the storey up?

Josh: No, no, no, no, no. So, I just got this one.

Victoria: Terrible.

Josh: I just got this one because I'll tell you why I bought them.

Victoria: Okay. That's right. All right. I love that.

Josh: So, there was a yellow tag above both of these.

Victoria: The recommendation one?

Josh: No, the sale tag.

Victoria: Yep. I'm here for it.

Josh: And so, this, This is a South Island. What I liked about it was I love anything coastal, and it said island on it. And so the blue I really like, and the wine that I normally get has a blue label. The wine I normally get was double the price of this, so I decided to get two different types of wine. And so I've got that one, and then I've never had—

Victoria: so you got two for the price of one?

Tommy: Yeah, but two for the price of his one.

Victoria: On my podcast we have money wins. I think that that is the money winner.

Josh: You haven't tasted it yet.

Victoria: Money wins. It's more alcohol.

Josh: Okay, perfect. Great. And so this one is an 8% alcohol, if that means anything.

Tommy: I mean, I don't think— do people who drink wine look to the alcohol content and say like—

Victoria: I don't believe so.

Josh: Would you mention it, Victoria?

Tommy: The bogan looking at the Jim Beam to see if it's the extra strength one versus a sophisticated person drinking a drop of—

Victoria: I mean, 18-year-old sommelier me was actually looking at double blacks going, this is bad for my butt.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Victoria: Not that.

Josh: It's shit.

Victoria: I got a red.

Tommy: I get the percentage in one bottle.

Victoria: Yeah. No.

Tommy: Small 375ml.

Josh: And so, this is a French one, which seems sort of outrageous because red wine, I don't connect with France, but maybe it is a big thing.

Victoria: Oh, it is. It is a big thing in France.

Josh: Yeah. Whoops. But it does. It says here.

Victoria: That's actually what they're known for. Aren't they?

Josh: Like, I went to Champagne. Wine and cheese. I went to the Champagne region. Yeah.

Victoria: Champagne, but they definitely have a very large amount of regions that have red wine.

Josh: Okay. And so this, this one does. And so it's a, uh, I haven't described them. This one's a Pinot Noir, La Forge Estate, uh, Sud de France, 2018. And so one of them, yep. So just really quickly, one quick observation is that the, uh, that one's backwards. Yeah, the South Island one is a lighter color.

Tommy: Well, I don't think you know what the glass looks like.

Victoria: That looks—

Tommy: yeah, the glass is black, but I feel quality-wise, potentially we Do you know how you can tell quality wine?

Victoria: By the screw cap.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: Obviously.

Josh: And so the screw cap means that is much cheaper than a corked wine. Okay, great. Yeah, I don't think I've ever opened a corked one before.

Tommy: So actually, yeah, my uncle tells a joke and he says he got a bottle sent over. He said, excuse me, waiter, come over here. He says, can I help you? He said, uh, this bottle is screwed, take it back. It is meaning the screwdriver.

Josh: Oh, that's funny. Um, so what I'll do—

Victoria: get a laugh, or do you just get up and walk out of the restaurant?

Tommy: I give him the laugh because I'm usually pissed at that point.

Josh: Do you have, um, go-to jokes being in finance? You've got the podcast She's on the Money. Do you have—

Tommy: well, I think stereotypes or like, um, areas you're playing in the— like in money stuff or money banter?

Josh: What's good money banter? What do people get around?

Victoria: Good money banter is Maybe if we just have banter, it will come out. Yeah, I just feel like it's all about money habits and just talking about like your bad spending.

Tommy: Sure. I've got one too.

Victoria: The meme I put on Facebook yesterday was about balance. Like you spend $1 on a bargain something and then $3,000 on a trip to Europe or something.

Josh: That is good comparison.

Victoria: I feel like it's always like the comparison of people going like, oh, I got a bargain here. So I splurged over here.

Josh: Where do you spend money, Victoria? Where do you spend your most amount of money?

Victoria: This is not great. I would say on food.

Josh: Honestly, yeah, same. Uber Eats, or are you going out?

Victoria: I'm so good at Uber Eats. So am I. I'm so good at Uber Eats. Thai food. Yeah. They know us now. They write really nice messages on my Uber Eats bags.

Josh: Really? Oh, that's nice.

Victoria: It's something I'm trying to rein in. That was actually one of my 2020 goals.

Josh: Do you give yourself a budget in regards to how much you will spend? Give that a sniff and sort of a swirl.

Victoria: That's beautiful.

Josh: There you go. I just did small ones to start just so everyone can have a try.

Victoria: You call this small? This is like a legitimate glass of wine.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: Some of us have to drive home. Oh, that's right.

Tommy: That's it.

Victoria: That's it.

Josh: I've just got to walk home.

Victoria: Yeah, that's cool.

Josh: With 2 bottles. Cheers everyone.

Tommy: Cheers guys.

Josh: Cheers guys.

Victoria: Cheers to the first Wine Friday.

Josh: Okay, here we go.

Victoria: First Wine Friday. This needs to be a thing.

Tommy: Well, this is going on the weekend, but I think at the end of, because we do 7 shows in 5 days.

Victoria: Impressive.

Tommy: We, um, finishing the work, finishing the week, the last show should be with wine. That's a great idea.

Victoria: I feel like Sunday sesh, that's a thing. Oh, definitely.

Josh: And the aircon helps with the red wine. If it was hot, like if it was as hot as it is outside, it would be bad. All right, so we're sipping.

Tommy: I want to, I want to get your thoughts on that, uh, sommelier. Uh, Victoria, your birthday— this is kind of finance banter— is on June 30th. Yeah, classic.

Victoria: Yeah, like I, I'm also the daughter of an accountant, so I just feel like that's good banter on Your parents end. Yeah.

Josh: Had a little baby.

Tommy: Got the expense through before the end of the financial year.

Victoria: Yeah, no, look, my dad wasn't actually very impressed that that was my birthday. He had to leave work. He was a financial controller at the time and he was just like, this is not on.

Josh: This is absolutely not on.

Tommy: It's annoying.

Victoria: Yeah.

Josh: It's like having, if you're a footy player, you're having a kid on grand final.

Victoria: Yeah, that's rude. That baby needs to wait.

Josh: Have a TARDIS.

Victoria: I'm hard to see if it's Pretty nice. Good work.

Josh: I don't know if it is.

Tommy: No, I might.

Josh: So I had the one that I get is like a, I don't think this, I don't know much about wine. I'll say that.

Tommy: But what I will say is—

Victoria: You knew the colour. That's pretty good.

Josh: The thing is that the one that we normally get is like an organic one or whatever. This has something to it. Maybe it's all psychological, but this has like a—

Victoria: Tannin. It's called tannins. So you can feel it on your tongue.

Josh: Is that good?

Victoria: Oh, some people like it.

Tommy: If you've had one sip, I think you need to go for another because the first sip, like, you've got a fresh palate and you're hitting it with wine, and then you need to go again just because it will have had it on your taste buds. And so now it'll probably taste different.

Victoria: You need a job. Let me introduce you to some of my wine friends.

Josh: Did you have to like get dressed up being a— how do you say it?

Tommy: This is why you don't make fun of other people who can't say it, mate.

Victoria: Yeah, that's cool.

Josh: Sommelier. Sommelier. Yeah, do you just wear like—

Victoria: I mean, I wore the clothes that the restaurant gave me.

Josh: Okay.

Victoria: It was a beautiful white shirt, black pants, apron. Very, very restaurant.

Josh: Yeah, that makes sense.

Tommy: Uh, Max, can you just ride the mic slightly? Thank you. Um, it's, uh, yeah, I mean, but what— so what winery did you work at?

Victoria: I worked at Red Hill Estate for a while.

Josh: That's good, that's a good one.

Victoria: Yeah, and at Crittenden as well. Yeah. For a fair while.

Tommy: And so was this before you were thinking about getting into the finance game?

Victoria: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I worked as a waitress while I was in my teen years because there's not much job opportunity on the Mornington Peninsula when you are 16 and want some financial freedom.

Josh: Surf club.

Tommy: I mean surf shop. Yeah.

Victoria: Do I look cool enough to work in the surf shop?

Tommy: I can see you in a pair of Reef, what do you call it?

Victoria: Trackies.

Tommy: A friend of mine.

Victoria: No, they were Trigger Trackies. Anyone that's from the Mornington Peninsula knows. Your Trigger Trackies, your Havanas and your wore Bond singlet. That was our uniform.

Tommy: That's Pete Shepherd, a friend of ours. He lived down in Torquay.

Josh: No, no, Ocean Grove.

Tommy: Ocean Grove. But he says he loves that sort of getup too.

Victoria: Yeah, he must be a great bloke. He knows his stuff. Yeah, I like him.

Josh: And so what did you do?

Victoria: So your very first job, what was it when you were very, very first job? My parents, this is very left field. My parents actually bought me a business when I was 14.

Josh: Amazing.

Victoria: Um, they bought me a coffee cart because they wanted to teach me business skills and life skills and how to do the books. And they bought me this coffee cart and I had to work out which markets I was going to take it to on which weekends. And I had to work out how much coffee cups were going to cost me and how much coffee and milk would all cost me. And I had to budget to buy soy and how much I was going to charge on top because soy was more expensive. And my parents were amazing. They helped me do all of this. And my mum would come around to markets and set up with me at 4:30 in the morning. And then I employed my little sister to help. I made next to no money in this, honestly, but I think that's where my love of businesses and starting businesses started because I remember the first time I was like, oh, Mom, I'm gonna get my sister to help. Like, she's gonna, you know, work in this. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. You're gonna pay her though? And I was like, damn, I love this.

Tommy: I had payroll going.

Victoria: Yeah, I had payroll going. And then after I'd paid for everything and I'd paid my little sister and I gave my mom a wage, yeah, um, I got to keep the profit. And their mum would be like, all right, well, you know, it's coming into summer. Do you want to buy a market umbrella or something and some chairs to go with this thing? And I'd be like, yeah. She's like, well, that's what comes out of profit. You've got to work out where that's coming from. And so I pretty much just didn't earn any money and was just developing this little business. And then VCE kind of came up and I sold the business to my sister.

Tommy: Yes.

Victoria: And then my mum and my sister did this and that's where my sister, Laura—

Josh: And now it's the Coffee Club.

Victoria: Yeah, no.

Josh: That'd be great.

Tommy: I mean, you were selling Xboxes back then. Between you and your brothers.

Josh: Oh yeah, no.

Tommy: Vic's over here selling coffee business.

Victoria: So I'm also really good at coffee. And now in our office, we had like a full coffee machine. Everybody in the office has been to barista training.

Tommy: Oh wow.

Josh: Simpler times.

Victoria: Yes, very, very serious.

Josh: Simpler times when you would have done it. Like now you have to, people are asking for almond milk, but then they need to make sure it's Milk Lab. There's like a lot of sort of—

Victoria: That's me, I'm sorry. I feel personally victimized.

Josh: No, I can 100% relate.

Victoria: Do you ever oat milk?

Josh: I sometimes have oat milk, but I just got so much into the sort of the Milk Lab and just asking people, have you got Milk Lab?

Tommy: I saw it on Instagram, good comparison snapshot, you know how they do, you know, you get like Milk Lab versus something else. There's a bunch of shit in Milk Lab.

Josh: Well, that's how they keep it all together, I guess.

Tommy: But this other one that was like, I hadn't tried it.

Victoria: Probably I don't like it. I've seen that advertising and I tried it and I'm very much like, okay.

Tommy: Because it's literally water and smashed nuts.

Victoria: Yeah, and it really separates out and it looks really gross. So come at me, preservatives.

Tommy: They've nailed it. And so that was first business.

Victoria: Yeah, when I was 14. Obviously, yeah, VCE took a step back.

Tommy: Great exit. Capitalise, you've been retired since, right?

Victoria: Absolutely, absolutely. It was called My Coffee Cart. It was really original in the naming conventions there. Then I started working as a waitress at one of the wineries on the peninsula on the weekends. Yeah, went from there. And then when I turned 18, they offered me the wine training. So I did that all through university, and then I'd come home on the weekends, do that, and then go back up to the city.

Josh: And yeah, do you find that there's— being a young person who was having their own business, is there a certain thing that stood out to you that sort of is different for the experience of a young person?

Victoria: Um, I think having control so young gave me a feel of of wanting to continue that control. And so when I started to be an employee in other people's businesses and seeing things that I wanted to change or do and knowing that I didn't have the power to do that kind of frustrated me. So it was a good and a bad thing. Like I wouldn't be here if my parents hadn't given me that opportunity, but I also wouldn't, yeah, I'm just a really bad employee, honestly.

Tommy: No, I mean, do you think that's consistent across business owners? Because I would agree.

Josh: Bad employee.

Tommy: But how good is that?

Victoria: I'd be a terrible employee, honestly.

Tommy: Yeah, because I mean, that's where— but then I think that we're in a time where people are feeling like, based on external pressures, everyone's sort of doing their own business thing. And so that's where you could be a great employee and then you're giving this pushback because you're like, ah, nah, I don't want to be labelled as a good employee.

Josh: Well, you see this, you see the, um the side hustle stuff, you see that there's sort of that expectation that you need to be entrepreneurial, and that's almost like it's, it's become a bit of a status symbol.

Victoria: I think it's unnecessary though. It's like such an unnecessary pressure, and I think there's such value in having a really good job that pays you well and gives you sick leave and gives you annual leave and enables you to live the life that you want. I feel like that's actually in this day and age so undervalued because it gives you the freedom to create the life you want and you don't have to be an entrepreneur and you don't have to have a side hustle. But it's one thing to be that and it's another to be something else because I think that, you know, now in the age of Instagram and like seeing what everybody else is doing, so shiny, like it looks so pretty to have your own business, but it's full of stress. It's full of everything that, you know, you don't see. It's, yeah, it's a lot.

Tommy: And so you started your financial advising busy, busy, busy Business. Business. After— I was trying to be cool, guys.

Victoria: I'm always trying to be cool.

Tommy: So you finish your uni degree. How long does it take to do a financial—

Victoria: so I did an Advanced Diploma of Financial Advice or Financial Planning. Sorry. No, you're right. Um, but I did like some degrees before that that gave me some credits to be able to do that. Um, so I actually started in psychology and then was working in psych and then did a postgrad in psych and then did my MBA and then got into finance. Finance.

Josh: So, well, it seems like a long road.

Victoria: It was about 8 and a half years worth of study.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: So the psychology of finance.

Victoria: Yeah.

Tommy: Within—

Victoria: so interesting to me.

Tommy: Your first episode on She's on the Money was about your money story, which I love. I sent it to my wife. Don't think she listened. Oh well, I'll have a go at it tonight.

Victoria: No, no, no, don't even.

Josh: I will.

Tommy: No, because I think it's so relevant around I mean, everyone needs to work in some capacity, or they need to live. You need money to live. Absolutely. So it's like, if you dig deep— and so what is that exploration for most of the people you're working with? Or what did you learn in sort of the textbook uni area about that stuff?

Victoria: So doing psychology and doing finance was so completely different, but I feel like I actually use my psychology I feel like I use my psychology degree more now than I did before. So I was working in the space of culture and engagement, and the thing that came up all the time was like, Victoria, it's not actually my job, it's the fact that I've got a mortgage to pay. Victoria, it's not my job, my wife's having another baby and we didn't plan for this, and you know, I'm feeling financially stressed. And I felt like there was this massive roadblock of me having these conversations, but I could also see that if I could have that conversation with that person and I could help fix their financial situation, how much better off they would be because psychology is fantastic and I love everything about it. Sorry.

Josh: The wine, it's the shit wine. It's the shit wine, honestly.

Tommy: Oh guys, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Josh: Is it good?

Tommy: I really like it.

Victoria: I quite like it.

Josh: It's very strong.

Victoria: It's from Central Otago.

Josh: No, it is actually, it is good.

Victoria: It's not bad.

Tommy: God, he's had a few sips. He's got it in his blood. He's now loving it. Give me a little bit more.

Victoria: I think he's had a little bit more than a few sips. Look how empty his glass is now in comparison.

Josh: I don't know, I'm a bigger guy though. All right, then who? I don't know, both of you. Oh, go on.

Tommy: It is hard.

Victoria: Sorry, I don't even know where I was.

Tommy: This is terrible.

Josh: I told you, no, no, I told you this would happen.

Tommy: It's great. You're really pushing it, Josh.

Victoria: No, let's just get all the wine into him, it'll be great.

Tommy: Well, I think so then. Okay, your, uh, financial advisory course. What was the name of it? What was the actual—

Victoria: An advanced diploma of financial planning.

Tommy: And are they thinking about the What's Your Money story? Are they using this terminology?

Victoria: No, no, no. They're just talking about finance and what this is. And like, yeah, it's definitely not talking about that. And that's something that I'm really passionate about in this industry. It's getting people upskilled in the space of psychology because the biggest thing for money is actually how you feel about it. And you can't change your money behaviours or your thoughts or beliefs if you aren't bought into it and you don't see the value in it. So if you can connect with your clients on a level that is like, no, he wants the best for me and I want the best for me and this is my path, you're going to be better off than a financial advisor looking at your finances and checking out your bank account and being like, all right, well, this is the plan that you need to make.

Tommy: Do you think it's shifting from the days of accountants and financial advisors looking at shit black and white?

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. And I also see a massive shift in this industry of all of these advisors and accountants and you know, mortgage brokers coming into one house. So it's kind of like a one-stop shop instead of going to your accountant and then going to your dad's financial advisor. It's very much like you have your finance person and you go to that one relationship and they will work everything out for you.

Josh: How much have parents fucked this all up in regards to the education?

Victoria: I don't think they've fucked it up. It's a bit dramatic. They're doing the best they can.

Josh: Well, I guess like a lot of people are coming with warped perceptions of money, and that's gonna have come from somewhere.

Victoria: Money stories, right? So the way we grew up and the behaviours and the experiences we had are obviously gonna shape our perception of money. And if you grew up in a family where money was quite tight, you're probably gonna have those behaviours regardless of what your job is in the future, because it's ingrained in you to feel stressed when money comes up. Whereas if you're in a position where you grew up in a wealthier family and money wasn't an issue, I actually see a lot of clients who are getting into debt because they're going out on their own, getting a credit card and just spend happy because mum and dad were spend happy, but they didn't see the work that went into creating the wealth that enabled their parents to be spend happy. So I think if we want to dive into where parents are going wrong, it's not having open, honest money conversations with their kids from a really young age. It's getting them on the page that they can start talking about money and going, all right, well, you're 5, but like, that's what this costs and I work for this because there seems to be a perception that money is everywhere for children and it's just, oh well, mum and dad will organise that. But they don't see that you actually have to go to your job to earn money to then allocate it to something.

Josh: How many people are obsessed with money and where do you fit on the spectrum? I guess in the financial sector there's probably a lot of people who see money as the thing, the destination, the thing that we're all working towards. Where do you sit with that?

Victoria: I see money as a tool. It's a tool to create the life that I want, and it's going to give me the freedom to make the decisions and create the lifestyle that I want. Um, unfortunately, I'm not a money-made— uh, unfortunately, I'm not a money-motivated person. I can see it as— or I see it as an indicator of success. Like, obviously, if you're making a lot of money, you must have done something pretty good, and you've worked really hard for that. So I do see even the revenue in my business as a reflection of me doing the thing that I said I was going to do. But I get a lot more gratification out of people saying like, oh my gosh, you've changed my relationship, I feel so much better about this. But I think that's because I'm not the standard financial advisor that came in and said, I want to give financial advice. Like, I kind of fell into this because I was so passionate about psychology and helping people that it made sense to move into this. And I kind of came in left field with a background in another career. So for me, it's always been about helping people and getting them on track and feeling a part of their journey. And I love that, but I don't see that in a lot of people. But in saying that, I've met so many financial advisors who are so fantastic and on the same page, and they've had no training whatsoever. They just are. It's innate for them.

Josh: What about home ownership? I guess in Australia, there's always the— it seems like a lot of people have the goal to own a home. It seems like in 2020, it seems like the Australian dream. It's the Australian dream, but it seems harder than ever to actually— like, it's a pipe dream for many.

Victoria: Absolutely.

Josh: What's the reframe or how do you look at the home ownership?

Victoria: Well, it depends on why that's a goal of yours. Is that a goal of yours because your parents owned a home? Like, what is the stagnant point where you are saying that that is what you need? Is that what you think is going to create you wealth? And often people are saying like, well, I need to buy a home, I need an investment because I need to retire one day. And it's like, well, maybe that investment isn't property because it's actually not viable for you anymore. Like, are you going to come up with $200,000 to buy in this area? Like you're not going to get an asset that actually increases in value to the same extent that it has for your parents. Like even I got that from my parents a while ago. My dad purchased his first home for like $17,000 or something and it's worth a whole heap more. He sold it, but worth a whole heap more now. It's like I don't actually have access to property at that type of level to have that capital growth. And if the capital growth of Australia and the property market in Australia continued in exactly the same way that it has over the last 30 years, it's actually unsustainable. We'll have people in Melbourne needing to purchase like apartments right now that are $500,000 for $3 million, and now, uh, income isn't going up at the same rate. So like the rate of inflation is absolutely not keeping up. So it's an asset that needs to be reconsidered. And why do you want that? Like, don't get me wrong, I get wanting to own your own home and have that, but like, what is your wealth creation strategy? It's not just property.

Tommy: Yeah, because the previous generation to us, our fam, our parents and their generation are retiring asset rich, a lot of them. So they don't actually have heaps of cash, maybe some super before they access it, but then they, my parents have an asset of a house, but then that's their retirement as well as their super. But then for us, like our generation, if we're not able to, like, what does that look like for us? I mean, you think you have this.

Victoria: I feel like I see it a little bit differently. I don't want any of, I don't want to be in this situation and I don't want any of my clients to be in a situation where they're primary asset is their family home that they have then brought their children up in, and they get to 65 and they go, all right, I want to retire, Victoria. And I go, okay, to retire you have to sell your family home. I don't want that. I want you to live your best life in your family home that you've worked so hard for and probably done heaps of renovations on and made it perfect for you. I want you to have that asset and have another asset that's paying you for retirement. So I think it's, it's an interesting thing, and you see a lot of people in their late 50s and 60s who are asset rich and need to downsize to a different property to be able to afford retirement. And that's just not what I want for my clients. It's not what I want for my life. If I buy a property and I make it my property, I want to keep that. I don't want to have to then sell that so that I have financial freedom. I want to create that independently of the properties that I own.

Tommy: Well, I mean, I even— I look at that asset rich, like, that's a good situation out of the opposite situation, which is I don't even fucking own an asset and I'm 65 and I've got Uber Eats and $300 grand of super and I've got to go on the—

Josh: sorry, unless you own equity in Uber Eats.

Tommy: They're not a profitable business as yet.

Josh: Unless I'm collecting all of my paper bags.

Victoria: Yeah, we could sell that. Let's head on down.

Tommy: Yeah. And so, but then you, um, yeah. And then you're going on to pinch the pension as your sole income as an elderly person. Like, that's scary, but that is a reality for a lot.

Victoria: But how lucky are we to live in a country where we have, we have access to a resource like that so that if you're at a point where you need to retire because you can no longer work, we actually have access to a resource that supports us in doing that. So I think that we are great, or I am grateful for that, but I also never want to be in a position where I need to access that personally. I think that there is a place for it, absolutely, But I also think that, you know, we should be working as young people to create wealth over the long term, but we don't see the value in it because we just think it's so far away. Like, retirement isn't that far away. We look at our parents and it's— they have these conversations with us all the time. They're like, when I was your age, and to them that was yesterday. So we need to be thinking about this now rather than, you know, 30 years down the track. Like, the priority is now. And I guess that's why I'm so passionate, like wildly passionate about financial literacy and just understanding that you have so much power now.

Josh: What about all the trends that are coming through that, like, I've, I watched a documentary on FIRE, Financial Independent Retire Early.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: And I've got another one. And, and so all of these different things, like, where does it sit for someone who is such a spectrum?

Victoria: Oh my gosh, like, I have so much respect for the Financial Independent Retire Early movement. I could not do it personally. Like, these are people who are saving like 80, 90% of their income.

Josh: They're freezing burrito breakfast burritos. And I did it for—

Tommy: I made a batch of— it's beyond that.

Josh: Well, the thing is, yeah, I was— it was almost like a trial because I was doing that, but then still having Uber Eats. Like, I wasn't eating breakfast, so I started eating breakfast burritos to see what it was like. But it's a clusterfuck. They go a little bit soggy when you— yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And they're saving their wage. It's not the— it's not just the burrito bit. Yeah, that's my—

Josh: but that's right.

Tommy: I just feel like burritos isn't the key.

Victoria: You to the independence.

Josh: No, but it's the retire early bit.

Victoria: All right, so what I'm getting here is the financial advice is eat a frozen burrito, you get to retire early.

Tommy: It's spend— I mean, the nonsensical bit about it is that they're talking about the breakfast meal as the one that you create these burritos and you save a bunch of cash. Eat oats, it's 70 cents a dish, not even 50 cents.

Victoria: I love oats. I'm the biggest fan of oats.

Tommy: Yeah, they're great.

Victoria: Like oats with banana, oats with chocolate, oats with peanut butter. Now you're going to talk Sorry, it's probably too expensive.

Tommy: Oh yeah, it's way too expensive.

Josh: Yeah, now it's become—

Victoria: Lucky we don't put oats with avocado.

Josh: Never have.

Tommy: And so they're that— I mean, how do you— how are these people retiring early? They're saving 80%?

Victoria: They're saving like 80%, 90% of their income and putting it into an investment. And the idea is to get that investment to a point where the investment returns are enough for them to quit their jobs. And that's just how investment works, right? Like the idea of investment in general is to save something right now to have a better something later, and they are just really accelerating that process. They are putting themselves in positions where they can have that investment portfolio.

Josh: How many people are expecting to be extremely rich in the future so they're doing nothing right now?

Victoria: Oh, so many, so many. And you know what, I've even been a little bit guilty of just going like, oh, prioritise that later when I have more funds. Yeah, that's a really bad strategy. Do as I say, not as I do.

Josh: Yeah. Right. Do you think, so do you think like where does that fit? So for instance, with, uh, with how we run our business, we pay ourselves small salaries with the idea that we are building this thing, which isn't necessarily conducive to the personal saving thing, but you've got this sort of weird investment thing.

Victoria: But I think it's different in business. Like business is like, if you look at assets that return, business is the asset that returns the most. Most. And like in Australia, that's where most of the money is actually made. So it's interesting and I think it's a good strategy. Make sure it's good business. Obviously I write this, I just want to hang out with you guys. No.

Tommy: Yeah, we supply wine.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Like that, you had to lure me in. You literally had to bribe me. No, so I think that that's a strategy and it's a wealth creation strategy and you're investing in your business. So it's not like you're not investing. You're actually putting funds into your business to grow that because you're expecting capital growth. And if you are not expecting capital growth, like not sure why you're funding it. But I think—

Josh: Except for the wine.

Victoria: Yeah, like I'm here for it. I think it's a great business model. Wine, chips, I'm done.

Josh: It would have been good if there was cheese as well.

Victoria: Yeah, look.

Josh: But that's fine.

Victoria: I can't eat cheese. But I feel like you've met this, like my really random dietary requirements. You've met literally 100%. Oh really? Oh, perfect.

Tommy: Oh, great.

Victoria: You're welcome.

Josh: What are you—

Tommy: Glad we didn't get cheese. You're lactose intolerant?

Victoria: Yeah. I'm like, all right, are you ready?

Josh: Oh, these are all your intolerances.

Tommy: Oh, you've got an intolerance list?

Josh: All right, yeah, you're a milk lab.

Victoria: This is disgusting.

Josh: I never say gal, it's the wine.

Victoria: Honestly, I hate myself. Like, I actually apologize. Excuse me?

Josh: I hate me as well.

Victoria: Oh, okay. All right. Um, no, I actually apologise to waitresses often. I'm just like, I'm so sorry I exist. So I'm gluten, dairy, soy, corn, intolerant and I'm also a vegetarian.

Josh: So I don't know. Soy vegetarian. Yeah. Animal soy vegetarian.

Victoria: And like, what do they replace most animal products with? Oh, soy and corn.

Josh: Can't eat that.

Victoria: So I can eat potato chips and I can drink wine. So we are good.

Tommy: I almost bought honey soy chips.

Josh: I'm so glad I didn't. Oh, because soy.

Tommy: Honey soy chicken.

Josh: Sorry.

Tommy: Yeah.

Victoria: That would have been beautiful.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So what is your, um, because I was actually, uh, Yesterday, uh, my girlfriend Bree was organizing, um, she was going to the groceries, uh, to the supermarket.

Victoria: Yeah.

Josh: And she, uh, yeah, well, she didn't actually, so, um, she called me and said, hey, is there anything you want? And she said, I'm getting dark chocolate. I said, can you get some Coke Zero, please?

Victoria: Yeah.

Josh: We had that call, and then we were driving 97 home, and then as we were driving home, Bree's like, what should we have for dinner? And 97, well, yeah, 97 thought that was very funny because Bri had gone to the supermarket and we ended up with Coke Zero and chocolate.

Victoria: That's a very balanced diet.

Josh: That's what I was planning on having, but Bri's like, no, I actually want something.

Victoria: Well, maybe she should have thought about that when she was at the supermarket.

Josh: This is what he was saying. But the point is, it's like, what are you— are you someone who actually, especially being so intolerant to so many things—

Victoria: I'm very considerate. I plan a lot of my food.

Josh: So what are you eating? What's your diet look like?

Victoria: I eat a lot of Asian food because it's very easy. As long as it's not soy-based, it's pretty good. Lots of green curries, lots of red curries, vegetables, no tofu.

Josh: They're quite easy to— would you like some more?

Victoria: I would love some more.

Josh: Yeah, okay, good.

Tommy: That sounds good.

Victoria: My eating is pretty good. I eat a lot of— I do eat eggs. Yeah. So that's pretty good. I eat a lot of eggs, literally every day.

Josh: Eat the yolk?

Victoria: I do.

Josh: Nothing wrong with the yolk.

Victoria: No, absolutely not. I'm not one of these people that just have egg whites scramble.

Josh: I feel like Sam's would.

Victoria: No, no, no, no, no, you have the whole thing. Are you sure?

Tommy: Yeah, why would you have?

Josh: No, I just feel like you'd do this because there's a lot of people. Harper, Craig Harper would get rid of the yolk.

Tommy: Uh, back in the day, I don't think now.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: They've got rid of the— so the whole thing was that cholesterol. Yeah, too much cholesterol.

Josh: And so it's all fine now.

Tommy: It's all good.

Victoria: I put salt on everything.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: I'm the biggest salt fiend you've ever met. It's actually borderline obsessive.

Josh: What do you put it on?

Tommy: Everything.

Josh: Peanut butter.

Victoria: All right. You guys name me a food that doesn't go with salt.

Tommy: Yeah, because peanut butter does.

Josh: Chocolate goes well with salt.

Tommy: Exactly.

Josh: Do you put it on chocolate?

Victoria: I love a good salted chocolate. I love a good salted caramel.

Tommy: Ice cream, but then you get salted caramel. Damn it. There's not much. There's actually nothing.

Victoria: What do you mean there's not much? You have not named one thing.

Tommy: You're right. There's zero.

Victoria: Yeah. So salt goes with everything. I just don't understand why you don't put it on bread. Chutney.

Josh: I guess put a bit of oil and salt would be nice.

Tommy: Oh, that'd be lovely.

Victoria: Much better. Wine. Honestly, all right, I'm gonna take like—

Josh: If there's something— It sounds like you've done it.

Victoria: I feel like I try to be refined, but I'm— Salt, potassium, it's great.

Tommy: I mean, you wouldn't put it on yogurt.

Josh: Salt and yogurt.

Victoria: Yeah, but you would if you were having yoghurt on a curry.

Josh: If you're having a tzatziki, you would.

Victoria: Yeah, you would have tzatziki.

Tommy: Oh yeah, you do weird shit with yogurt, Mr. 97. What do you mean?

Josh: Don't accuse him of that.

Victoria: Oh, I'm accusing him of it.

Tommy: Well, people put it— you put yogurt, plain yogurt, into a bunch of savoury dishes that I'm sceptical of.

Victoria: That's because it does go with everything. Yeah, I'm intolerant, but I'm here for it.

Tommy: Yogurt does not go on bread. I actually— fuck.

Victoria: But do you know what? You mentioned salt and wine before. If you get a really ridiculously cheap bottle of wine, and I know this from being a very poor uni student—

Josh: what would be a cheap wine?

Tommy: Uh, Aldi, $4. There's like— really?

Victoria: You can, you can get bottles of wine for $3, $4. If you put a pinch of salt in there, it changes the tannins. It changes it. Wine. Also, you can aerate it with a blender. So if you want to be really fancy and an absolute bogan, and I'm really actually upset with myself that I'm admitting this, put a pinch of salt in a bottle of wine, chuck it all in the blender, blend it, and it tastes a million times better.

Tommy: Blend it.

Josh: This is right.

Tommy: I'm pretty sure it's a 14-year-old Similaire.

Victoria: Blender, it aerates it.

Josh: I've seen a great—

Tommy: Aerates it.

Victoria: It does. You need to aerate the wine. Why do you think people decant wine?

Tommy: But not in blenders.

Victoria: No, so that's me taking it to the next level.

Josh: There's the one where you put it above the wine glass and as you put it in, it goes—

Victoria: It's like, I've got one of those.

Josh: It's an aerator.

Victoria: Yeah, it's adding air. It's a legitimate aerator.

Josh: You've got one of them.

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Would you count yourself as a minimalist?

Victoria: No.

Josh: Got a lot of things?

Victoria: No, not necessarily. I actually feel like I'm one of those people who actually wants to buy quality over quantity.

Josh: That is such a thing at the moment.

Victoria: Yeah, but I've always been like that. I've always been like that because my mum has taught me to be. Like that. She said buy it once, buy it right.

Josh: Yeah, it's a great idea. Is it— what's your best purchase living, or what's it— what sort of year— what's your living arrangement?

Victoria: I live in a townhouse.

Tommy: Okay, what's your best purchase that is under your mum's ethos?

Victoria: Oh, a lot of stuff, to be honest. I've got a pair of boots actually. This is going really weird. No, this is how I've got a pair of boots, um, that I bought when I was 14, and I still wear them every single winter. I love them.

Tommy: I reckon my foot's grown too much since I was 14.

Victoria: Oh no, I'm still small. Like, no, I'm tiny. I'm 5'2".

Tommy: You're 5'2"?

Victoria: I'm wearing heels. I walked in in heels.

Tommy: My mum's 5'2", I think.

Victoria: Yeah.

Josh: Do you have to wear heels all the time?

Victoria: I don't have to.

Josh: You choose to?

Victoria: When I wear flats in the office, everyone comments on how small they are.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: Yeah. It's not great.

Josh: What do you think?

Tommy: You just remind them that you're the boss at that point.

Victoria: No, honestly, like, I feel like any good business, your employees, you work for them. You make every— you make their life better.

Josh: No, absolutely not.

Victoria: No, you work for them because if you make their life easier, they make your business better. So no, no, they absolutely—

Tommy: how do you find good people when you're running your business?

Victoria: That is actually probably the hardest thing.

Josh: Let us know when you find out because we've got some dead wood in— I'm not talking about this stuff, right?

Victoria: No, no, no, that's well and truly dead. Why is your wood laughing?

Josh: It's going red, it's changing colors.

Victoria: Maybe that's collectible. Sell it.

Tommy: No, but seriously, Marie Kondo it.

Victoria: Get rid of it.

Tommy: How have you found good people in your business to surround yourself with?

Victoria: It's really, really hard. It's honestly the hardest thing that I deal with. And at the moment, I'm actually trying to find a couple of people to join the team. And I just haven't found the right fit yet because it's like a mixture of skill and ability. And I'm very happy, like in my business, I'm very happy to compromise on skill because I believe that that's trainable. But being a good person isn't. And I feel like that's something that is really hard to manage. And a few of my staff members and my team members and, you know, business partners have actually come through just like long-term friendships and long-term relationships. And a lot of people say don't work with your friends, but I believe with a pretty good shareholders agreement, it's not a bad idea.

Tommy: Yeah.

Victoria: Like I have Morgan who is in my business and she runs the debt side of my business and she's one of the best people I've ever met. And when we went into business, a lot of people just said, look, that's a really bad idea. You guys are too close. And I have not regretted that decision. And I don't think I ever will. She's one of the best things that's happened to my business.

Tommy: Was that a consistent thing or was one person that really cut deep that said that? Oh, I think it's like, you know, part of it.

Victoria: Your dad cares about you. Like my dad's like, are you really sure this 'Is this a good idea?' And I'm like, 'Yes, Dad, sorry.' Has your dad had a failed partnership? No, no, not that I'm aware of.

Tommy: I think that's the whole money story.

Josh: The fastest sinking ship is a partnership. I think that's what— did your dad say that?

Victoria: No, no, no, no, no. My dad says some pretty wise things, but that's not one of them.

Josh: No, he didn't say that.

Victoria: No.

Tommy: But you see why, like, I understand the challenges of a partnership.

Josh: Yeah, hurtful.

Victoria: Oh, listen, do you want me to leave? Like, do you have some stuff you need to sort out?

Josh: What's the moderator? What's the thing called?

Tommy: You've done a psychology degree.

Victoria: I actually have a minor in family mediation, so I'll be ready.

Josh: Oh, this is good. The job interviews are dumb. Job interviews are dumb because it's like, I've— I, um, when I was working at another place, we did a bunch of job interviews, and the first time we ever hired someone based on job interview that I was involved in, we did a terrible job.

Tommy: Why?

Josh: Because a person that we were interviewing, they said all the things that we wanted to say every and any time that we, we asked the right questions. But then you just take it on face value. So it's like, yeah, we, we can't see in your portfolio that you do this type of work. And they'll jump in and say, oh no, I can't, I can do that. And it's like, oh good, oh great, I was worried about that. Yeah, I was worried about that. So it's good. And then you hire them and you realise it's like, oh no, they're just fucking said what you wanted them to say.

Victoria: Yeah, I'm— I, I think I'm very lucky in that my background in psych was actually in culture and engagement and creating teams. So I feel like I've carried a lot of that into the way I've created Zella. And our recruitment process is arduous. Like, I apologise to everyone who's been through it, but it's, you know, there's 3 interviews, there is psychometric assessment, there is a physical assessment that you need to do.

Josh: What's a physical assessment look like?

Victoria: Um, not kettlebell swings, at least 4. Yeah, yeah, Russian or American style? Yeah, no, a lot of like Russian twists as well. Like how many can you do? How long can you plank? Um, no, none of that. What is it?

Josh: What does it actually look like?

Victoria: It's actually like a piece of financial advice in a situation, like what would you do? How would you do this? Like what's the type of advice you'd give? So I can get an understanding of not just their, um, capability, but actually how they think and like, where's your strategy at? What does that actually look like? Because financial advice is so many pieces that come together and I need to know how they think because if they are just really pragmatic and do what they were told to do and they're not taking the big picture into consideration, well, that's not really going to work for the type of business I'm trying to grow. So for me, recruitment is arduous and very tedious and it does take like 6 weeks to get through. But to me, it's meant that we haven't had an issue with hiring the wrong type of staff. And like, we haven't had any turnover of the people that we have had join the team.

Josh: What about clients that come to you and they say, I'm struggling with getting a pay rise? How do you—

Victoria: Oh, I love that. Next week's podcast episode, like my podcast, is actually on pay rises.

Josh: So this is an exclusive.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Oh, I'm going to talk about it.

Victoria: No, no, I haven't, I haven't thought of a witty title yet though. So if you guys want to brainstorm that, give me more money. Show me the money.

Josh: Show me the money.

Victoria: Oh, that's pretty good.

Josh: Oh, Show Me the Money's good.

Victoria: Show me the money.

Josh: That's pretty good.

Victoria: I always try to make all of my like podcast titles. Like, I'm not funny, so this takes me a really long time. But like song names that I've changed. So like recently it was like I Ain't Saying She's a Gold Digger.

Josh: Oh, that's good. So if they're all, um, they're all Music, like song titles?

Victoria: They're not all song titles because I'm actually not that witty. But, you know, I do put a lot of effort into looking like that on the internet.

Josh: What do you think the number one— you're on Spotify? Yeah, you're on Spotify. You can see what artists people listen to that listen to your podcast.

Victoria: Can you do that? Yeah. Jasmine Thompson.

Josh: Jasmine Thompson. And what sort of music does she do?

Victoria: She does like acoustic covers.

Josh: Really?

Victoria: Of things. And like, she's really aligned to her brand. I'm not sad because I do listen to her.

Josh: I'm not a voice avenue kind of guy.

Victoria: Yeah, I'm not cool. I'm really, really not cool. Ask my little sister. I'm so not cool, it's not funny.

Josh: And so, no, because, because that could be an interesting tactic. You can go through all the artists, see what songs they are, they, they sing. Annoying, like annoying that it's, um, covers, but you could work out, like I'm thinking like Party in the U.S., like say, uh, Miley Cyrus.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: What are all the Miley Cyrus bangers? And then we could do a play based on that?

Victoria: I could do that season by season. It could be the Miley season.

Josh: Oh, that's a great idea. What about like an Elton John one? What's Elton John do?

Victoria: Tiny dancer.

Josh: Tiny dancer. Tiny pay rise.

Tommy: It gets lost easily.

Victoria: All right, all right. I don't feel like that works, but yes. Where were we? Pay rise.

Tommy: Candle in the paradise. So what is the way to get a pay rise?

Victoria: Just ask for it.

Tommy: Just ask for it?

Victoria: No, that's terrible advice.

Tommy: That is one piece of advice.

Victoria: So I actually think this is a really interesting topic and it's something that I am quite passionate about because people are so good at calling millennials entitled. And I think that there is two things, right? There are the millennials who are actually putting the hard work in and actually getting it done and actually deserve the pay rise. And there are actually some millennials that I meet that are saying things like, look, I deserve it because I've worked there for a year. And I don't personally believe that you are deserving of a pay rise just because of tenure. So I think it's more about proving your value and getting people to understand, you know, where you're coming from and showing your employer that that, you know, you are valuable and putting a case together to say, look, I would like a pay rise based on this. It's not about just saying, I want more money.

Josh: What about like, because I've always felt that the main way that I've ever gotten a pay rise is by changing companies.

Victoria: Yeah.

Josh: So it's one of those things where it's like once you're baked in, there's only been one.

Victoria: But if you had those conversations, like have you gone to your manager and said, look, I believe that my value is far more than the remuneration I'm receiving? Have you asked that or have you just gone, all right, I think that I need to get a new job to move to the next level.

Josh: Yeah, no, so I've definitely said, hey, based on the things that I'm doing, I think that this is worth more to the business. I think that it's like, it's going up a skill set. Interestingly, I mean, for a lot of people, I think the common thing is pay freezes. A lot of businesses love doing that. It's like, I know we're in a pay freeze and talk to like, like, um, oh, sorry, you've reached the top of your band. Yeah, just these types of conversations. And the interesting thing was where I saw the biggest increase ever was when I changed titles. And the funny thing was the managers at the time and said, Josh, titles, don't worry about titles. I changed my title and then they came back like a week later being like, oh, you're actually— we've just had a look at like the stat, the average, or whatever the fuck, like that band thing. And it's in a different thing. And I all of a sudden got a 15-20% increase. Hey, that's pretty good, just based on that change when they were saying at the time that those things don't matter. So that stonewalling from middle managers is an interesting one because I was even speaking to a middle manager who was saying, ah, I was pushing back on this person and then I had this realization. It's like, why the fuck do I care? Why don't I just push it forward to my manager.

Victoria: Yeah, but then it's interesting, right?

Tommy: Well, the stonewalling, we gotta understand if it's the person saying, can I get a pay rise with no outlining, or having some entrepreneurial spirit to say, here's where we are, here's where I've taken you, or this position.

Josh: Or if they're underperforming, that seems like a common one too, which is like the person that's underperforming that then goes forward and says, I want also want more money. And I think that potentially plays into that millennial thing, which there is a small portion of the population that probably does fit into that, where it's like their first job, they probably listen to a podcast and get the, the energy, get the motivation to go up and do it. It's like, mate, you're lucky that you went past your 6-month probation.

Tommy: I think I'm less empathetic towards millennials after having my own business and my mates having their business.

Victoria: Like, the shit I've heard Excuse me, millennial, pipe down.

Tommy: No, but the shit I have heard about—

Victoria: okay, boomer—

Tommy: staff leaving early, like staff not telling people they've quit.

Victoria: What?

Tommy: Like, seriously, what are you talking about? So it's a real problem if you don't— if you are working within a company, you're in a contract and you just bail. Young people don't tell, like, they don't want to say they're quitting. They don't pick up the phone. Young mate doesn't like to get on the phone. Yeah, yeah. And so what happens? Your contract with them?

Victoria: I literally don't know. Thankfully that's never happened.

Tommy: It's because of the 6-week boot camp you put your people through.

Victoria: Yeah, look, I'm here for it.

Josh: The physical.

Victoria: I'm sorry, but has that failed me? No, no, it's a good thing. No, exactly.

Tommy: It's a good thing. But I think it is hard to fire people these days. And so I get this sort of narrative around millennials are shit, lazy, whatever. But it's like, that's too triggering to say.

Victoria: Yeah.

Tommy: When maybe there's a bunch of people who are not wanting to make phone calls, not wanting to lean forward, lean into a hard conversation, asking for money or saying, I don't like it here. And then they're just disconnecting. And so this is where some of it's true. Is all millennials lazy?

Victoria: No, absolutely not. Millennials are absolutely not lazy.

Tommy: Absolutely not.

Victoria: But it's a thing. Like I had a friend who hired a new receptionist and on day 3, she just didn't come back from lunch.

Tommy: Is it good?

Josh: Is she okay?

Victoria: I don't know. But she's like, she didn't come back and we called her and she said she I wasn't coming back to She's Alive, but I'm back.

Josh: But it all comes down to having difficult conversations. And so mate, like, where did you land with thinking when it comes to this latest episode? Basically give us the exclusive. What do people need to do? What's the steps to get a pay rise?

Victoria: I think it's understanding your value. And you know what, when you said before that you had gone to your manager and said, I want a pay rise, sometimes the best thing for you is to actually leave.

Josh: Yeah.

Victoria: And that's a hard decision to make. But I believe that you really should give your employer at the time the best opportunity and every possible opportunity to remunerate you in the way that you feel like you are deserving. And if that's not possible, well, of course I'm going to leave. But I think that it's really important to also realise that your value needs to be understood from both sides. Maybe they just needed you to do the job that they'd employed you to do. And this above and beyond and this discretionary effort that you're putting in, they're like, yeah, bloody brilliant, but it's not what we are remunerating you for. So it's about knowing your value, knowing where you sit and how that works. And there's so many resources online, like the Hayes Salary Guide is something that I really like because—

Josh: Hayes Salary Guide? What is Hayes?

Tommy: Don't look it up, Mason.

Victoria: No, it's like, it's just a recruitment company.

Josh: It's blocked.

Victoria: It's a recruitment company that I've had a previous relationship with. I don't use them at the moment, but they are pretty good. And they they put this guide out every year of what the average salaries are for each level. And like, it'll be like accountant, and it'll be like 1-year, 2-year, 3-year experience, and tell employers what the average employee is being paid in different areas. So it'll be like, you know, Vic Metro, Vic Regional. So you can see what the different salaries are. And I think that having a really good understanding of what your role is currently being paid as well gives you a good indicator of whether you're underpaid or overpaid or if you're just on par.

Josh: Is there a way of communicating it? Do you think, is it a bit cheeky to rock up?

Victoria: No, I'm here for it. As much as I think it's a bit cheeky, I think it's more knowing your value. Prove to your employer you did your research.

Josh: There is a—

Victoria: I'm probably going to be hated by so many employers in Australia. I'm so sorry.

Tommy: What you're saying is, is it cheeky? It's like even giving it that label it. I mean, you don't have to throw it, inferring that it's going to be a hard conversation. I guess like sort of ruffling feathers.

Victoria: I mean, I probably wouldn't go in and be like, here's my research thesis on why I should get paid.

Josh: But even looking at the health of a business, right? If you're in a small business and you see that they're like trying, they're struggling to make profits or they're struggling with revenue, probably like, yeah, like thinking about does the person who, especially roles that don't have revenue connected to them. Yeah, I find interesting where it's like if you've got a sales role, it becomes a little bit easier, where it's like if you can generate X amount of money for the business, it's, it's an easy sell. The, um, freelancing thing, the side hustle stuff, the gig economy— people are obviously taking their initiative. They're going on to Word or they're using MYOB and they're getting— setting up a account and they're sending an invoice, how many of them are actually considering things like tax obligations?

Victoria: So many of them are forgetting.

Josh: Yeah.

Victoria: But I think it's really important that if you're going to start a business, start it on the right foot. Work out what your tax obligations are. Work out how quickly you're going to generate profit. Are you going to generate profit above $75,000? Okay, well, you need to pay GST. What does that look like? How do you invoice for that?

Tommy: I think about 35 grand.

Victoria: 70.

Josh: Is it not 85 now, or is it lowered to 75?

Victoria: I'm absolutely not.

Tommy: I had 35 and I thought, poor little freelancers.

Josh: 35 would be harking.

Victoria: No, but GST is like, it's you charging your client so then you can pay it. It's like, it's a no-sum, no-win game. It's kind of like you charge it over there and then they should be claiming it and then you pay it. It's just one of those things that's no-sum.

Tommy: Well, I think to be honest, in the early days, ways. I was explained that, but I didn't fathom it until I was in it. And I'm not charging GST, and I'm like, I'll take the leap and charge it. I don't even know if I can make $75 grand. I make $100 grand that year. I'm like, fucking sweet.

Josh: I feel like you need— in some ways I felt that, especially day one, I'm like, okay, if I can charge through an— if I'm invoicing a client and it makes up 20% of that $75 grand, to be, I think it's non-GST, having non-GST on there is sending a real clear signal that you're like, you're a baby. Yeah. And they're a big part of the business. So I'm just like, fuck it. Like I'd much prefer to just get the GST going.

Victoria: I talk to my clients about this all the time. And I think that if you are a business and you are sending out invoices and you want to look legit, GST.

Josh: Yeah.

Victoria: Because it means that your business is generating more than $75,000 in revenue. So you can pay GST voluntarily, like you can charge it and pay it. You don't have to be earning over it. There's just an obligation to pay it when you're earning over $75,000. So I think that, you know, if you want to make your business look more legitimate, paying GST is a very good way of sending a signal, especially if you're B2B, like if other businesses are paying you and engaging you for services, it just makes you seem like, you know, you've been doing this for a while.

Josh: And if it goes to the accounts team, and they're putting it through, like I know that it's a thing that we, I think not even judging people on, but you do think about it. It's like, okay, this is a smaller freelancer who's not charging GST.

Victoria: Yeah, it's the mindset, right? And like I've done this as well. I see it in my business when I outsource things and get things done. I'm like, oh, okay, well they're at the start of their journey. And that's not a bad thing. I'm all for it. I love small business, but I know a lot of people don't see it that way. They go, oh, maybe there's a a little bit more risk there because they don't have the experience.

Tommy: What's been the branding, but the sort of the view on financial advisors, particularly after Barefoot's book?

Victoria: Oh, they're terrible. Don't talk to a financial advisor, honestly.

Tommy: You read it.

Victoria: What are you doing? They're terrible.

Tommy: Our mate, our gronk mate, Scott Pape, his book, there's some questions that he wants you to call and ask your financial advisor.

Victoria: Yeah, ask away. A good financial advisor should— I've been sent that so many times. I'm so sick of it.

Tommy: Scott paid Sarah 3 questions.

Josh: Do you have canned responses?

Tommy: We've got the book there. I wouldn't mind to— can you grab it, Mason?

Victoria: Just see what the questions are. What have you got the Barefoot Investor for?

Tommy: He's a client of ours.

Victoria: Yeah, great.

Tommy: We charge him GST.

Victoria: Yeah, awesome. Awesome.

Tommy: Yeah, he pays it and then we pass it on to the tax department.

Josh: No, but is it literally— it's literally under Seb's arm.

Tommy: We use it as a screen. Scott, we're using your book as a screen elevator.

Victoria: Scott, shout out, my book comes out in October, watch out.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: What is your preferred major?

Tommy: It's not in there. Anyway, so you've been asked these questions.

Victoria: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think that any good financial advisor can answer them clearly.

Tommy: And so is there a problem with, not within your circle obviously, you're squeaky clean.

Josh: Oh yeah, so are there advisors?

Victoria: I'm really lucky. Like I am so, so lucky to be working in the space. At the time that I'm working in. I didn't— I have not entered the industry where commission is the standard. I have entered the industry where I am a fee-for-service financial advisor because one, that made sense to me, and two, you could see the industry going there. I have a lot of sympathy for a lot of financial advisors who are in positions where they have books of commission that they need to change because, you know, after the Royal Commission, a lot has changed. And I've been really lucky that that hasn't impacted me, but the And the reason that hasn't impacted me is one, my business model is good, but it's good because it's new. I haven't been in this industry for 30 years. I haven't got this revenue and this tenure that, you know, extends past there. So as much as I'm saying, look, I'm good, it's like, well, I'm also really friggin' lucky because I got into this industry at a time where it was like, all right, well, they're moving away from commission-based. I probably shouldn't do that.

Tommy: And so if you just Elaborate on that.

Victoria: So old school financial planners would take commission based on the performance of someone's investments. And I don't do that.

Tommy: So what is the other model? You submit FIFA?

Victoria: FIFA service. So you come to me.

Tommy: Sorry, FIFA. FIFA soccer.

Josh: FIFA 2019 or 2020?

Victoria: No, no, no. I don't know if 2020 has come out yet. Come on now.

Josh: No, I'm sure FIFA.

Victoria: Are you joking?

Josh: Remember that FIFA would do the—

Victoria: I've got a soccer mad partner and I'm like FIFA. I got some brownie points early in our relationship by buying that game for him.

Josh: I feel like FIFA normally, like all these games, they do it a year before. Yeah. So I feel like we'd see FIFA 20, like 21.

Victoria: I don't know if it's out. He's a bit busy. So like FIFA is not the priority anymore.

Josh: EB Games, is that where you go?

Victoria: It was where I went.

Josh: What do you mean?

Victoria: Why? I have a boarding fee for this year.

Tommy: She's busy.

Josh: I get it.

Victoria: He doesn't play anymore. I'm not going to buy a game he's not going to use. Come on now.

Josh: No, there is something nice about relaxing and something nice.

Tommy: And so do you think the financial advisory businesses will lean towards the fee-for-service? Yeah, as a standard. And so we'll remove the commission-based shit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So then it will clean up the industries that—

Victoria: it's absolutely going to clean up the industry.

Josh: What about like prior, like so doing sort of creating your own products? Yeah. How does that play into— because obviously the problem with commission is it's skewing people to, or advisors to advise on certain things that they know, like, okay, we get X commission for this, X commission for that. Obviously, if you have your own product and you're like, hey, use our product, there is the thing in the back of everyone's mind, which is like, is that the right product for that client too?

Victoria: So it's kind of like, I don't have my own products, one, because I'm not big enough yet, but two, because it's one of those things where it's like, well, 'Even if I had my own product or my own model portfolio,' you could say, 'is that the right option for a particular client?' Because not all products fit everyone. It's not, you know, cookie-cutter kind of service. And I think that it's really interesting because, you know, if you work as a financial advisor for a bank, you only have access to their products. So is that truly holistic advice? I don't know.

Tommy: It's biased.

Victoria: Yeah, it's a bit biassed because it's like, well, if you work for a big bank and then you only have access to their products, products and they're really limited APL, which is an approved product list, um, are you actually biassed or not biased? Like, it's interesting. And I am— I'm an independent advisor that actually has— like, I have an APL. I'm with a licensee at the moment and they give me access to everything. But if I find a product that works better for my client, they'll always consider it. And none of my financial advisors and I don't get remunerated for the product I I buy or the product I buy for my client. So it doesn't matter whether they go with one bank or another bank or, you know, a different investment product. My advisors still get paid exactly the same every single month regardless of how many clients they've seen.

Josh: What about the super free thinkers who are like, ah, fuck all the systems, like even what you're doing? They don't want to go to anyone. They want to manage it all themselves. They say, okay, like, I'm going to buy like stock in like the top 100 or whatever it is, like index funds, all that sort of shit. I'm just saying words now.

Victoria: Yeah, baby.

Josh: Yeah, but what is the like, what's the, um, contrary sort of opinion on that? Where can that go wrong?

Victoria: It depends. Are you buying an index fund? Why are you buying an index fund? An index fund is legitimately the average of the average. Is that why you're investing? It's not why I'm investing, so go for it if that's up for you.

Josh: Yeah. And so then the other options are the, I guess, so it depends how much money you have.

Victoria: So like if you are starting and you're like, look, I've got $500 to invest, I'm like, cool, your options are really, really limited. If you then come to me and say I have $500,000 to invest, it's like, all right, well, you're probably going to go direct equities because you're able to create a well-diversified portfolio. And with investing, diversity is key and making sure that your portfolio isn't all your eggs in one basket and making sure that you actually have that diversity across that portfolio. And if you only have a small amount of money and, you know, what was it, like ANZ shares or something yesterday were like $85, it's like, well, if you've only got $500, you can't really get a well-diversified portfolio by buying direct shares, can you?

Josh: And so what about the— because I guess there's that idea of buying a house or renting and then using the extra cash you have to invest. If you're in a position like that, where does someone start?

Victoria: Oh, it is so, so personal, and that sucks because I wish I could be like, this is how it goes, do this, it's the model. Um, it, it completely depends. Like, if you want to purchase a home, it's all emotionally driven. Like, at the moment I don't own property, and that's a conscious choice. Like, I don't want to own property because it doesn't align to my values, and I don't want to own property because I'm not ready. To take on the responsibility of that. I really like renting. I like the fact that, you know, somebody else worries about my broken hot water system. I love that that's not an unexpected cost. I love that the asset that I'm creating, which is in shares, pays me a dividend and I don't have to go fix somebody else's leaky taps. But at some point, you know, based on relationship, my partner is going to want to buy property. He wants to own his own home, and it's working out what that looks like because every investment decision is actually an emotionally driven investment decision. It's not actually something you go, all right, well, I'm going to get the best bang for my buck over here, because I'm telling you right now, it's not property.

Josh: And so the reason that is, the reason why I get like it, because everything is emotional. And so say for instance, when, when should someone prioritise the dream versus what's actually going to be better for them? I guess like the reason I'm thinking about this is There's people who it's like they'll have the mortgage, they'll buy a house, but then somehow they'll also go on like the round-the-world trip and they'll do all of that other stuff.

Victoria: You need to look at the big picture. Like what are we trying to create here? Like my ultimate goal and the thing that I'm so passionate about is creating financial freedom. And to me that is having an income that comes in each and every single month that I do not have to work for. And that's why I invest and that's why I want all of my clients to invest. And it's like, well, can you create that while doing all of that?

Josh: So what does it mean to invest? What is—

Tommy: What kind of cash are you talking?

Josh: Yeah, but also—

Victoria: You give me all your money and then I disappear. No.

Josh: And so that's a good investment for you.

Victoria: That's great.

Josh: And so the criteria of investment is, I guess that most people will think about, it's like, okay, you own stock or you own, like what are the different versions of stock?

Victoria: There are 4 different asset classes and the idea of an asset asset, or the idea of an investment, is to put your money somewhere where you get a return. Like, and my favourite type of asset is an asset that returns not only dividends and gives you money in return but also increases in value. So when I sell it, it's worth more. So that's, to me, shares at this point in time. But the main asset classes in Australia— everyone knows property, like, that's pretty big. You could be a rentvestor, you could be just an investment property mogul, you could also own property directly as your family home. You've got shares in the share market, then you've got bonds, and then you've got cash. And so cash in your bank account is an investment in itself because it should be earning a really low amount of interest, but it isn't— it's an investment in your future. So those are the 4 main asset classes in Australia, but it totally depends on your risk profile and your tenacity to invest as to what asset class works for because obviously cash is far more conservative than the share market. But then the share market has its own diverse ranges of risk, and like some shares are more risky than others. Like if you buy a bank, obviously that's been around for forever and a day, and the returns on a bank are quite low in comparison to, you know, something like Afterpay, which I don't invest in. But that's also a lot— yeah, but it's also a lot more risky.

Tommy: My brother invests in that.

Victoria: Oh, well, cheque him out. Did he make a lot of money?

Tommy: We invested when it was like $4 a share.

Josh: Okay, well, what is it now?

Tommy: Like $35.

Josh: Oh great.

Victoria: At least $35, I think.

Tommy: But the moral ethics of Afterpay—

Victoria: but if you got in early— no, I neither do I. I've got an entire podcast episode on it.

Josh: Yeah, when you're saying investment in Afterpay, you don't mean just buying shit online using—

Victoria: I mean, we should swing it that way. Um, no, it's buying shares in a company. But if someone is talking about this asset and there's a whole heap of hype around it, you can almost guarantee that that is a already peaked. Like, if someone has started talking about Afterpay as an asset, and like, let's use Bitcoin as an example here, like the— I don't believe in investing in Bitcoin because there's absolutely no research basis or, or financial basis to it, but I believe quite passionately that if you're investing and everyone's already talking about it, it's a bit too late.

Josh: And so in regards to investing, say if you had an extra $2,000 a to invest somewhere.

Victoria: $2,000 a month. You are a baller. Do you know that if you were 21 and you invested—

Josh: I'm nearly 30.

Tommy: No, Mr. 97 is 21 this year. So if we go—

Victoria: All right, Mr. 97, are you ready for this?

Tommy: We can make you financially—

Victoria: If you have $500 to invest each and every single month until you retire, that is $240,000 that you've saved. But if you put it into an investment that on average returns between 5% and 7.5%, 5.5%, you've got a $1.2 million investment portfolio. And so, and that sounds cool, like, oh, $1.2 million, that's sick. But why is that sick? Because it returns you $60,000 a year in investment dividends, and that's the money that you then live off.

Tommy: So that's what I'm curious about. So the asset itself has grown and it pays the dividend of the $60,000. So it's the one you like.

Victoria: So it's based on— It's the one I like because it actually creates an income for you. So the The idea is to create an asset that you don't have to sell and you don't have to extinguish because if you extinguish it, then it's gone. Like it's to create an asset that lives forever that you then just take the profit off the top and keep on keeping on.

Tommy: Is that to say that nothing has gone bad in the share market? Is that like the shit? So we've hit another financial crisis like 2008. That wasn't even that bad. But if you imagine—

Victoria: I think 2009.

Tommy: 2009?

Victoria: Parents sold their houses. So the GFC. This is such a convoluted topic. This is so much deeper than I thought we'd go. Sorry. No, no, no.

Tommy: I love it. Go back to talking about your 14-year-old shoes.

Victoria: Excuse me. Those are the best things to ever happen to me.

Tommy: I want to know what brand they are.

Victoria: You left us hanging. Nude.

Tommy: Nude.

Victoria: N-U-D-E. No, no, no. That's the brand.

Josh: What colour are they?

Tommy: Mason, put them in the show notes.

Victoria: They're black boots. Victoria's boots are black. Anyway.

Josh: Exclusive.

Victoria: The people that lost money in the GFC predominantly were the people who got out because they were scared. And this is like about emotional investment. Investment, right? Like, at the peak, when people are really excited about an investment— we were talking about this before— that's when the shares aren't worth that much because everyone's excited about it and the share price is inflated. But when the GFC happened, everything kind of bottomed out and people were getting really scared. And instead of just riding the wave, which is what we really need to do— and that's what financial literacy affords you, is the understanding that, you know, that will hopefully bounce back— they got out. So their shares dropped from like $65 a share to $1 a share, and they got out. And then those shares have recovered. So they would have been in better financial positions had they just stuck it out and actually rode that wave, but they got out. So a lot of people lost a lot of money because they're like, shit, I'm just going to pull all my money out of my investment and put it in a savings account because in 2008-2009 savings accounts returning 6-7%, so that seemed better than what the share market was returning. But then because the investment market went, you know, a bit bonkers, investment rates or returns on savings accounts dropped and then they were getting nothing again. So it's more about riding the wave. And if you look at investment in Australia, if you are invested for a 30-year period, no one ever loses. Like, no one who has been invested for that period of time has ever lost money because it always goes up. I'm not saying that that's a guarantee, but like that, if you look historically, is what it looks like.

Josh: So what happens, so if you put that $500 a month aside and put it into an investment, when do you actually start seeing those dividends?

Victoria: Dividends are paid depending on what the share is and how that works, quarterly, annually, however that works. So it, it makes sense, but this is about compounding interest. So like its power is actually in the very tail end of what happens with investment. So like the power is it compounds over time. And you know when they say like a lily pad is covering 50% of the pond and it's been growing, you know, at double, what's it going to be tomorrow?

Josh: I don't know much about lily pads.

Victoria: No, no, look at me now.

Josh: They're gone. So a double, say it again.

Tommy: I like it. Get my frogs on, mate.

Victoria: So if a pond was 50% covered in lily pads and it had been growing at the same rate each and every single day, and it, you know, was growing at double, how many days would it take to cover the entire pond? It's like, well, that's one day. And that's how investment and compound interest works, right? So like the more you have and the longer you're invested, the faster it doubles. So in the first year, compound interest is like minimal. It's like, you know, you've got $1 and you've invested it and you've got 10% return, so you've got $0.10. That's not great. But further down the line, you've invested $240,000 and you're at a $1.2 million portfolio. It's actually the power of money is in the time that you're invested, not how much you're investing.

Josh: And so that end game where you get when you've got a bunch of cash are you, or it's paying you out $60,000 a year. Is that based on every quarter or whenever you get those dividends that you're reinvesting that money?

Victoria: Yeah. So you have to be reinvesting it. So if you've invested your $500 a month, that is assuming that every dividend you've got has been reinvested to compound.

Josh: And so from a perspective of passive income, what's the—

Victoria: Well, that depends on your values, right? So like you could be like $60,000, that's great. That might not work to sustain someone else's lifestyle. So they need to work backwards and work out what their investment amount needs to be to create the lifestyle they want. And for some people, $60,000 is perfect. And for some other people, they're like, well, Victoria, I need a yacht on the Mediterranean, you know. All right, well, let's make that happen. And for me, financial advice is very much about working backwards and going, all right, well, where do you want to be and what's it going to take to create that? And so often, do clients come across my table that they go, all right, I want this. You go, all right, well, if I work backwards, you need to be investing $5,000 a month. And they go, that's not possible. And so we need to realign your goals.

Josh: And so renting, you have 5— like, so you say your rental place costs $500 a week. Yeah, uh, that's cheap.

Tommy: Yeah. So where are you living, mate?

Victoria: Where are you living?

Josh: It's like walking distance from here.

Victoria: We can totally—

Josh: $550 is what we pay.

Tommy: Say.

Josh: It's a very small place in Collingwood.

Victoria: If we use Collingwood, you get to tell everybody that you live in Collingwood. You are so cute.

Josh: It's got a city view. It's great.

Tommy: It's lovely.

Josh: So say if it's $550 a week, if it sort of feels like in some ways it's like, oh, that $550 rent money is dead money. I could be spending that.

Victoria: That is such a terrible excuse. No. So did you just tell me that you lived in Collingwood and it was great and you had city views, that's $550 a week for your lifestyle. Yeah, you can go live in Whittlepool, that's cool. Is it aligned to your values?

Josh: And so that's what I wonder. So for instance, say from a mortgage perspective, on a $550 a week place, that's like a rental. Yeah, say if that was, I don't know, what the fuck, what do you reckon?

Victoria: Could you get your current house for $550 a week on a mortgage?

Tommy: Mortgage.

Josh: Well, yeah, that's right.

Victoria: I don't think you'd give them the location.

Tommy: That's right, why would I buy in the city? You had a 30% deposit or something.

Victoria: Like 50. Yeah, 50 more. But at the same time, it's more along the lines of that's where rentvesting comes in, right? So a lot of people are buying in locations so that they can afford and they feel like will have capital growth and returns and then living in the place that they want. Because what happens is if you buy over here and you own this house and you're paying that mortgage, the person that's living in that house is paying you rental income. You take that money that that person is paying you in rental income and you pay your rent, and it's kind of a no-sum game. And then because that's an investment for you, your mortgage repayments are actually tax deductible, and you're in a better financial position having not lived in the property that you own because it's now an investment-grade repayment. You can actually claim it on tax. So therefore, if you're claiming it on tax, you can actually afford to pay more of your mortgage off quicker.

Josh: What about if you want to like pin things on the wall?

Victoria: Just do it, whatever.

Tommy: No, no, no, no, don't say that. Is that negative gearing? Is that—

Victoria: No, no, no, that's just rent vesting. That's negative gearing, positive gearing, you know, neutrally gearing. They haven't changed it, but they're talking about it. But I really, really doubt— this is obviously quite wildly personal opinion— but too many politicians have negatively geared properties for them to change the laws on that.

Tommy: That's a good point. Yeah, look, because they've all got the 7 beach houses.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly.

Josh: And what about investing? Is there any reason to invest?

Victoria: Did you say invest egg or investing?

Josh: I don't know. I probably said invest egg, to be honest.

Tommy: Doesn't know where he is right now.

Victoria: I love eggs. Honestly, they are a miracle food. You already answered the question.

Josh: That was a joke.

Victoria: Are you okay? Have you already forgotten my egg conversation?

Josh: The final one. Is there any reason to invest if you have any form of debt?

Victoria: No, no, absolutely not.

Josh: Whether it be HECS or whatever.

Victoria: Oh no, not HECS. HECS is out. So HECS is a debt that you don't accrue interest on. So it's interest-free. It does increase.

Josh: Oh, Bronx don't have HECS anyway, but you've got to go to uni to get HECS.

Victoria: Did we just talk about how much study I did? Like, can you imagine how terrifying my HECS is? Like, I'm pretty sure, like, this is not public knowledge, but now it is. My HECS debt is 6 figures and that's terrifying.

Josh: 6 figures. So that means—

Victoria: 6-figure HECS debt.

Josh: So that's over $100,000. That's not crazy.

Victoria: Whoa, did you work the $100,000 thing out yourself?

Josh: Yeah, I did. I nearly went to a million because, you know, 6 zeros sometimes.

Tommy: Amy's got like 5 grand left, my wife.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And we're going to get like an extra $120 a fortnight when that finishes very soon, which is— it's actually a lot of money.

Victoria: Yeah, but at the same time, you're not accruing interest on that debt and you're only paying inflation on that debt. And to me, like, this is absolutely well and truly not personal advice, but to me, my money is better spent invested than paying off my HECS debt. Yeah, because inflation's at what, 1.8, 1.9 each year, and the return of the share market is on average 7.5%. So I'd prefer that the money that I have coming in via my cash flow to be invested in the share market and performing a bit better, and I'll just pay off my HECS debt over the longer term. Um, but that's personal opinion, that's just what I do. Some people just don't like the idea of debt But if you have personal debt, if you have a mortgage, like that is an investment in itself to pay off. Because for you to, like say you have personal debt and the average is like what, 17% on a personal loan depending on what loan you've got. But like for you to invest instead of paying off your personal debt, that investment has to return more than 17% for it to be worth it.

Josh: And what about psychology of this sort of thing? Because you know, you took like, there's the whole snowball, like Ramit Sethi I think talks about that, like snowballing debt. Debts.

Victoria: I think that's good, and it's a really good mental strategy to get things off the list. And if you are in significant debt, which is— do you know what, it is what it is, it's fine. If you're in significant personal debt, call it. Just be like, all right, I'm in debt, what I'm going to do moving forward? Get out of debt is your priority. Like, I just don't think that investing is a thing that you should be prioritizing, because if you are, it's actually putting you back financially. Because it's like you're putting money over here, but you're actually accruing more interest over here, it's just like a no sun game.

Josh: What about good debt versus bad debt specifically? I guess as we said—

Tommy: The mindset, mate.

Josh: Yeah, but yeah, the jet ski.

Victoria: Good debt, I got a handbag and a jet ski.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I use them both at the same time.

Victoria: Oh, wow.

Josh: Wow.

Victoria: You are from Dramana, aren't you?

Tommy: Safety Beach, babe.

Josh: Hey, hey.

Victoria: That used to be called Shark Bay.

Tommy: Did it? Safety Beach.

Victoria: Safety Beach used to be called Shark Bay.

Tommy: Shark Bay, bad branding, bad branding.

Victoria: Legitimately, it was bad branding. They wanted more tourists. It's worked.

Josh: That works really well. I don't know if it's any safer, but bad debt versus good debt. I can see that where our business is going, where we want to eventually get to, we say, okay, there's huge amounts of investment that we put in ourselves, but potentially there's accessing of debt to be able to to fund certain things. How does, how do people do this when it comes to mindset? Because if you've just gone through life where it's like debt is bad.

Victoria: Talk to a financial advisor, get some advice. Like I think it's actually quite a powerful thing to be empowered in the decisions you're making and not just going, oh, it feels like the right thing. Like good debt versus bad debt. Bad debt is things that don't actually impact your future wealth. Whereas good debt are things that increase your future wealth? Um, and a car loan, not that. An investment in a business where you are anticipating it to have a positive return, well, that's something that you really do need to consider. So just because I'm a financial advisor does not mean I'm against debt. I'm against the, the wrong types of debt. I'm against credit cards and, you know, personal loans, but I'm not against going, all right, well, I've got this really good business idea and I am going to grow it this way, and I've got a really great business business plan that surrounds me. And for me to actually get where I'm going, I need to take on debt because that would be really naive of me to say because I've done that to create my business. Like, there's no way I came up with the capital to start Zella and to start She's on the Money without taking on some pretty significant risk because without risk you don't have good return.

Josh: Do you think that that's a conversation that's not had publicly enough?

Victoria: Oh no, absolutely not. Like, we, we all see these startups and people being like, oh, I'm an entrepreneur. It's like, well, Well, what have you, like what risk have you taken to be in this position? Because you don't get the growth that you get without taking on some level of risk and risk is often debt.

Tommy: She's on the Money, your podcast, a content play for you in business. I think people that are business owners making the decision to start creating something like a podcast.

Victoria: Do you see this?

Tommy: This is great.

Josh: The bottle is born.

Victoria: Are you kidding me?

Josh: I just went dry.

Tommy: Sorry to interrupt there.

Victoria: I feel like everybody's a public service now.

Josh: Do you want to say a bit more or no?

Victoria: No, no, I'm good.

Josh: You're all good.

Tommy: Do you want some? Finish it off, big boy.

Victoria: No, no, no, it's all yours.

Josh: We've still got the other bottle.

Victoria: It's not organic though. He might be disappointed.

Tommy: I feel like sneak the other bottle out when he walks out too. I'll just take this home.

Victoria: I feel like this needs to be a thing. I feel like our conversation has got better over time. Just like a fine wine.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Which the South, I've got to say, I've turned around with the South Island. It's a beautiful wine. Beautiful drop.

Victoria: Do you know what?

Josh: For under $20.

Victoria: Honestly, they should sponsor you. Send a case.

Josh: Yeah, send a case. Send a good case.

Tommy: Um, make it—

Victoria: so I'm embarrassed to be me today. Honestly, what have you done?

Tommy: Investing in creating content for your business. Yeah, invest in wine. It's the content's a different thing, but no, investing in creating content, which at the start makes no real sense for most people.

Victoria: Yeah.

Tommy: What's that journey been like for you in hindsight now that you've created something quite amazing?

Victoria: I didn't mean to do that. And I'd be naive to say that I did that on my own. She's on the Money came out of a space where I was running these workshops called She's on the Money. And I wanted a space where the women who were attending these workshops could network and ask the questions that they'd forgotten to ask in my workshops. And so I created a Facebook group and it got a bit confused when and other people who hadn't attended my workshops that were joining. And then I thought, all right, well, did you have questions on Facebook?

Josh: So we have some stringent questions we ask.

Victoria: We do.

Josh: When people— what do you ask?

Victoria: I ask for your email address.

Josh: Oh, that's a good one. We should have done that.

Victoria: Data collection.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria: That's right.

Tommy: I must have given it because I think I'm a part of it.

Victoria: All right.

Josh: Well, great.

Victoria: Do you get my newsletter?

Tommy: I might have put a bogus one in.

Victoria: That is a low blow, especially from you.

Tommy: I'm trying to think.

Victoria: I have your email. I'm adding it.

Tommy: Just check, can you just search your list?

Victoria: Yeah, I can. So that's it, so you ask that, so you ask your name, email, I ask what your location is because originally I actually thought it'd only be Melbourne-based people and I haven't updated my questions. Yeah. Um, and the third thing I ask is what do you want to get out of this group? Um, and a lot of people are like, oh, I just want to talk about money more, or I want answers to this or that. And that initially really drove what content I created in the Facebook group. And to be honest, in hindsight, it sounds like I've been really strategic, but it kind of was all by accident. And that's not to say I haven't been really purposeful in the decisions I've been making, but I absolutely didn't go, all right, She's on the Money is going to be this thing. It's going to be a movement. It's going to be all these things I want it to be, which I do. But I never thought I was like, I didn't think I was capable of creating that. And so we started growing this community and the podcast actually came out of me saying to the community like, hey, I've actually So I finished a 12-week course of content with them where I every week picked a topic and I would post on Monday about that topic. And then on Wednesday I'd post a little activity that they could do. And I used to get, you know, my friends to comment on the posts.

Josh: Oh great, that's a good one.

Victoria: Excuse me, Tommy, can you please comment on my post so it looks like people care?

Josh: I'm constantly doing that. Every time I do a LinkedIn, I'm everyone.

Victoria: Comment on everything of mine.

Josh: What is the deal? So when it just on that course thing, yeah, because we have a lot of reservations. We've already paid one month or two months for Podia. We need to get that going.

Tommy: I didn't pay for that subscription.

Josh: Whoops. No, that's a big media company. No, it's on the second one.

Tommy: No, no, but isn't it?

Josh: Yeah, I set that up.

Tommy: Even though I feel so—

Josh: you're passing. Okay.

Tommy: Yeah, I didn't.

Josh: Yeah. And so we want to do our podcast training, but we have this expectation of what we need to do. What has been your learning in regards to what people actually need from training versus what's created in your head as the person who's—

Victoria: I ask them. So I'm so lucky this community that we've created has been so responsive. So that's where I posted on the Facebook group and I said, what do you want from me? Like, you know, we've created this 12-week and it was just a Facebook post and it was just like a PDF that they could download. It wasn't anything too exciting. And I said to them, what do you want? And I did this like poll and all of them voted video content. Content. And then like secondary to that, it was a podcast. So, well, I'm not ready for video, I'm just totally not ready for that. But I felt like I could probably do a podcast. And so I reached out to a couple of people that were doing well at a podcast and said to them like, how do I do this? What do I do? This is the content I want to create, this is what I want to format, and this is the information that I want to get across. And they helped me create that and had no idea what I was doing at the start. And they did. And then it's kind of grown from there, and the podcast has been this voice that's been able to get this movement across, and it's become just that. It's a movement, and I'm ridiculously proud of it. But it's also come from a place where I just wanted people to be better at money. It didn't come from a place where I was like, I'm going to create another business, because Lord knows I did not need that. Like, I've got Zella. That is more than enough time. I'm not—

Josh: how long Zella— how long have you been doing Zella for?

Victoria: 4 and a half years. 4 and a half years.

Josh: And so what, what does the 4 and a half year mark look like compared to a year in, what have you learned about the health of businesses based on running your own?

Victoria: Um, a lot, a lot of it is just trial and error. I'm thankfully in a position now where I can really see what I want to create and how I want to create it. And yeah, it's one of those things where I didn't understand a lot about this industry before entering it, and now I'm seeing it, I'm just going, oh wow, like maybe I should have done this differently or that differently. But But you know what, it is what it is.

Tommy: When they say businesses, most businesses don't make it past third year, is it? Second year?

Victoria: I've heard that.

Tommy: What do you think? What is a, I mean, it's not true for you, but what is the thing that usually collapses most businesses or that you've seen?

Victoria: Actually anticipating cash flow and maybe not being as committed to their passion and their vision as they should have been. I think that I feel like a lot of people get into business because it's really shiny and they want to start a business and they, you know, might start a retail company and then they realise it's actually all too hard. So I think the most important thing to consider is if you are thinking about starting a business is take everything into consideration. Sit down with an accountant, work out what your 10-year plan is, not just what your 1-year plan is, and work out what that actually looks like in the long term because 10 years from now, like, are you going to be big? If so, what does that look like? And put yourself in a position to scale, because I think that's the thing that a lot of businesses shoot their— shoot themselves in the foot over, is actually just not being in a position where they can scale and grow their business. And when I say that, I'm not talking about going from like $500 return to $5 million. I'm talking about, you know, just even going from $500 return to $100,000. And what does that take? And how does that work? And how do you to set yourself up so that as the business owner, you are not the only person that that business is relying on.

Josh: What was the biggest stretch that you made? So for us, I guess, like, uh, taking on bigger leases or doing those sorts of things, like, there are— it seems like there's those pivotal, scary—

Victoria: yeah, pivotal moments where it's like, CBD rent is really expensive, I'm telling you right now. Um, I think it was actually for me realising that I can't be everything to everybody. Body, and I really needed to pull myself back on some parts of my business and let people do what they're good at instead of going, but that's my thing, um, and pulling myself back on that so that I could then focus on the things that are future planning. And, you know, She's on the Money has really played into that because prior to this, I was just seeing clients every single day. I was going into financial advice meetings day in, day out, and now it's like, well, actually, someone else can do that. And the best piece of advice I actually got was from Morgan again, honestly, I've told you, one of the best things that's ever happened to me. And she said, you need to only do the things that only you can do. And for me, that was kind of pivotal in changing the way that I saw things. And if someone can do it, like, find a way to make that happen. And that sounds very entitled, I know, because I'm very lucky to be in a position where I now have a team behind me. So at the start, you actually just have to do what you have to do. But once you get to a stage where you're growing, being able to let go of the things that you might love but someone else can do has has been the biggest thing that's helped us grow.

Josh: How do you let go?

Victoria: Look, I haven't. I'm just, I've just said I do. No, I think it's about finding a team that you trust and people that you really want your community to be made up of and people that you feel as though actually carry your vision and carry the things that you want to achieve in the longer term. And for me, I'm so, so lucky that I found those people. But for people who haven't found that, you often do have to carry on and keep doing those things. But for me, to be able to take my business to the next level was stepping out and going, well, actually, I can't always take client meetings. I can't spend my time here because I need to be building She's on the Money. I need to be talking about content. I need to be doing those things that only I can do.

Josh: Are you doing anything right now that doesn't make sense for you to do, but you believe strongly in?

Victoria: No, absolutely. I moderate my own Facebook group. Like, I love that. It makes no sense for me to be doing that, but it's one of my favourite things. And like seeing all of my community come together and like post their money wins and Money Confessions, I don't think people think that it's me. Because, you know, we do have a team. We do have, you know, I've got a really great team that actually helped me do that, but I'm still in there every day approving posts and approving people into the community because I just want to be a part of it.

Josh: Yeah, it's like when people like start restaurants, it's like you need to be in every part of the business to unders— properly understand things. And I guess that is the, the Facebook community is such a good representation of where everything is, where the community is.

Victoria: Yeah. And I don't think I'll ever lose that. Like, as much as we— like, I'm actually looking for a community manager at the moment, someone that can run all of that and, you know, do my events and do the things that I'm doing that I know I can outsource. But I don't think I'll lose that. I think I'm always going to be a little bit sassy and just jump in and do their work for them. Because I get that for me, I love that. Like, we're this strong community and there's like nearly 50,000 women in this group now and there's 250,000 comments comments and conversations going on every single month, and that's crazy. Like, I just desperately want to be a part of it.

Josh: Yeah, that's a lot of conversation.

Tommy: So good. Well, um, thank you for coming in for our first Wine Friday.

Victoria: Cheers to that.

Josh: I'm absolutely—

Victoria: yeah, cheers, friends.

Tommy: I'll still sip it. Empty glass is not the first person on this episode to do that.

Josh: What did you say?

Tommy: I just saw you sipping in on an empty glass.

Josh: Was I doing that? Yeah. The, um, I actually had— I remember I had some red wine doing, uh, We went to Sydney and we had Richard Wilkins on the show and we went to his—

Victoria: much cooler than me.

Josh: Yeah, well, no, he was— we went to his own private bar at his house and so he poured me a wine. And, um, I have a cupboard where I keep a bottle of gin.

Victoria: Is that good?

Josh: Oh really?

Victoria: Yeah, come on over.

Josh: It has vibes. Do you ever watch, um, the Morning Wars on Apple TV? TV Plus. But it feels like they're always got spirits, like they're always I'm so good at gin. Yes.

Tommy: Yeah.

Victoria: Rock on over.

Josh: I don't know if I've had gin before.

Tommy: You're going to have it right. Wait, what? You're going to have it right.

Victoria: He's never had a gin.

Tommy: He doesn't really drink.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Gin.

Victoria: He doesn't really drink, but he's sunk 3 glasses in this.

Tommy: Well, no, he's only just started drinking in his life. And so wine is his entry.

Josh: And so the, um, gin.

Victoria: We can introduce you to the gin and tonic.

Josh: Is gin clear?

Victoria: Gin is clear.

Tommy: Getting some really nice clear bubbles.

Victoria: Well, it doesn't have to be.

Josh: Like a vodka?

Tommy: I'd never thought I'd like—

Victoria: It tastes nothing like vodka. I don't like vodka. Please don't offend gin by likening it to vodka.

Tommy: And don't let the tonic water put you off, because a lot of people don't like tonic water, so they're thinking it's soda water.

Josh: I think—

Victoria: I don't know if I, I respect the fact that I came on this show given you don't drink gin.

Josh: I'll get around it.

Tommy: But yeah, I think you would actually like it. Gin and tonic with a nice bit of cucumber, little—

Josh: those baby little—

Victoria: you know what, I'll send you a small bottle of gin and you can give it a crack.

Josh: Thank you. The Ghostbusters guy has his own gin. Can you look that up, Sev? It's in a skull.

Tommy: I think that's vodka.

Josh: He's the UFO.

Tommy: I'm pretty sure that, um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Victoria: He's the guy who doesn't drink gin trying to correct us. I reckon I am a seasoned drinker.

Tommy: I reckon it's vodka because I've listened to the Joe Rogan episode with him on it talking about how like a different type of vodka then.

Victoria: Yeah, but a different type of vodka isn't gin.

Tommy: It's with filtered water. Yeah, all that bullshit.

Josh: Let's just find out. Crystal Head vodka. Yeah, it's vodka.

Tommy: Victoria Devine, thank you for coming.

Josh: Problems.

Victoria: Thank you for having me, friends.

Josh: You're doing the one on, um, what's it called?

Tommy: Next week.

Victoria: Oh no, you are awful at this.

Josh: Pay rises.

Victoria: Pay rises.

Tommy: Yeah, next week. You want to pay rise?

Victoria: Let's call it Show Me the Money.

Josh: Show Me the Money is good.

Tommy: I like Show Me the Money.

Josh: Show Me the Money. Did you already think of that?

Victoria: No, I legitimately didn't.

Josh: Okay, I'll have a think.

Victoria: It's not even a song lyric, I don't believe.

Tommy: I think it was a movie lyric.

Josh: We're never getting back together. What song is that?

Victoria: I don't know if that's appropriate.

Josh: A Taylor Swift song would be would be good. I'll come up with something.

Victoria: You come back to me on that one and you'll forget us.

Tommy: How we work.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address, and we'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: See you guys.