Brent Valle On Loving Unconditionally

Brent: The Daily Talk Show, episode 586.

Tommy: We got Brent Valli in the building.

Josh: Welcome, Brent.

Brent: Thank you.

Josh: It's smelling good, mate.

Brent: He's smelling good.

Josh: You've brought your, uh, surf wax.

Brent: I have.

Josh: How do you get to a point of creating your own surf wax?

Brent: It's an interesting story. I wasn't the original creator of it. However, I was over at a basketball game— sorry, a baseball game, but back in 2017 watching the San Francisco Giants play. They were losing at the time and I got tagged in on a Facebook post and it said business for sale and it had Bell Surf Wax. And so I immediately sent a direct message to the guy who owned it at the time.

Josh: Like Facebook Marketplace? Like, is it a Facebook market?

Tommy: Gumtree. Look, there's businesses for sale. Acai Brothers, $150,000. I saw that for sale in Bayside.

Brent: So you just go, you just DM him and say, I just send him a DM. I go, how much you want?

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And he literally listed all the kind of assets that were there and he said 10 grand and I said, I'll give you 8. And he said, okay. And so I said, send me an invoice for 20%. I sent it to him immediately on the spot just after we got home from the game.

Tommy: I thought you were gonna rock up and do what you do with Gumtree, only take 7.

Brent: Yeah, exactly, just cash.

Tommy: I've only got 7.

Josh: What sort of assets did they have?

Brent: A shitty website. Yeah. What else they have? They had the trademark on the name, but I had to change it a few times just to get Bells Beach Australia on there 'cause I thought that was a really, really, from an intellectual property piece, something that was really appealing. I used to say Pure Performance instead, but I thought the name Bells Beach Australia was something that was gonna add a lot of value to it.

Tommy: It's iconic, mate. And if you're not, you can't see if you haven't watched the episode, this is a bell. So it's in the shape of a bell. I remember when you first bought this, you told me, we caught up, you showed me and you said the mould as well was what they'd had, what they'd created. So that was another asset.

Brent: Another asset. They had two molds. They had a rice cooker. I'm not joking. A Cambro rice cooker. And there was a massive chunk of wax. So when I got home from a trip, it was in October, I went down to my mate's place in Torquay. This guy's house in Torquay. G'day, mate. His name's Sam Ham. He's one of his sons has actually gone on to play with the Essendon Football Club. I think it's Bryant. Yeah, I don't know what his son's name is. Anyway, I knock on the door and I go, g'day, mate, BV here. And he goes, oh, g'day, mate, how are ya? Come out, come outside, come in the garage. So he rolls up the roller door in the garage. He goes, okay, this is what I do. And so there's this big chunk of wax sitting there. And there's this rice cooker anyway. So he like cuts off a bit of the wax, turns the rice cooker off, chucks it in, and he starts melting it down to the right temperature.

Tommy: And I'm going, he's giving you a demo.

Brent: It's like a demo. I'm like, I'm not a hands-on guy, like I'm not a tradie or anything like that. Anyway, so melts down to the right temperature and he goes, so what I do now, I got my little— and he's got a little thermometer. He puts it in there and once it gets the right temperature, goes, all right, right now what do I do? I pour it into the moulds and then I wait about 20 minutes. It's about the right time to have a stubbie. So then he goes and gets a stubbie and he has a drink and I'm just waiting, chatting away to him. And then he goes, oh, we're about right now. Then he popped them, popped the two, uh, bells out of the molds, and then he got these plastic, uh, sandwich bags, chopped the corners off each of them, had a heat gun, and he like heats her up, shrunk it up, he goes, there's a finished product. And I'm like, fuck me, what have I done?

Josh: You're like 10 grand, was that, was it 8 grand?

Brent: I'm like, I'm going to be spending a lot of time out in the garage. And you know, like, that's not my thing, right? I'm surprised that's how it started.

Tommy: I'm surprised there wasn't one before. If you like bells What is that, 50-something years of that Bells Beach Rip Curl Pro? It's huge. Like some of the surfers around the world go there. So it makes sense that someone would have started a Bells Wax Surf. Is that though?

Josh: Like, I don't know if like turning a wax into the shape of a bell, it probably seems obvious now that we're looking at it, but like there is, I guess, some IP in that. Is anyone else trying to do it?

Brent: No, we've got the trade— so we've got a trademark, we've got protection around the shape of a bell surf wax, and then we've also got protection in terms of IP around the actual logo itself. Same Bells Beach, Australia, Bells surf wax on it. So I had to tighten it up a little bit when I got home.

Tommy: For some, I mean, we have looked into the trademark thing. We don't have a shape. We don't have— we couldn't get it.

Josh: Well, the Daily Talk Show was too generic. Too generic.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: Right. What's— what do you have to do for— to keep the trademark of something like this?

Brent: Yeah. So you just have to register it. You go into ipaustralia.com.au and it's a really complicated process and I've got no real legal background around this type of stuff. But I'm the kind of guy who just does and learns along the way. And yeah, I kind of figured it out. And at the same time I was like, well, what are we going to do about this wax? We've got one blend. I want to roll it out and scale it out globally and I want to bring on team riders all over the world. And so then at that point it was around finding some— first of all was like finding a provider, wax manufacturer to partner up with. So I found a guy.

Tommy: So out of the garage into somewhere.

Brent: Correct. He's like the Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken. He's got his secret recipe. And so yeah, I located him in Australia and we said, let's do it. And he said, okay.. And then we just, we had 6 blends, originally 5 blends, and then we came up with the Super Sticky Pro for our team riders. Then I just started sending product to different kids aged sort of 13 to 16 on Instagram all over the world. And then on Instagram I started getting all these requests from grommets, up-and-coming grommets who want to be pro surfers.

Josh: What's a grommet?

Brent: A grommet is someone who's like a frothing grommet, a frothing grommet, surf shuckers, and they love those shuckers, correct?

Josh: Yeah, I went surfing once, uh, Phillip Island I think it was, for a year 10 Camp, maybe. You're right.

Brent: How was that experience for you?

Josh: I was all right. I was more overwhelmed with having to get into a wetsuit. I was a fat kid, and so it was a bit, uh, uh, but no, it's fine. Like, I, uh, I wanted to get into surfing and then went to Queensland when I was 18, and the day before we had the surf lesson, I was like, I'm gonna go, um, is it called bodyboarding? Oh no, sorry, bodysurfing. There was no board.

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: And, uh, nearly drowned. Had to get like saved by a couple of lifeguards. I was like, um, could you swim? Yeah, I could, I could swim, but the problem was I didn't see— like, they said you to not go any further than waist deep or whatever.

Tommy: The difference between swimming in a pool and the ocean.

Josh: Yeah. And so I think there was a rip or some shit, whatever it was. The wave kept hitting me, and the annoying thing is I was fucking screaming out and like the salt was getting into like my voice. I couldn't, I couldn't speak. And I kept getting slammed by waves. And when I finally got saved, one lifeguard came, their board went like flying with the, with the wave. Another lifeguard came. And then when I finally got onto the beach, it was one of those things where it's like they brought me in and like, okay, you can get up now. I'm like grabbing onto the board and it turns out like I was in about this much water. Like, I could have actually—

Tommy: I mean, it's a real metaphor for life, that story. Yeah.

Josh: And then I had a lady say, oh, I didn't I thought you were waving. So why did you come up? What do you, what do you want from me?

Tommy: Well, I mean, it's hard studying this in the actual sea when it's rough. Now there's the, the wave pool, the, what's it called?

Brent: The Urban Surf.

Tommy: Yeah.

Brent: Urban Surf.

Tommy: I mean, I've seen there's two people on my Insta and Facebook feeds. It's you and Luke Wallace frequenting that place. How many times have you been since it's opened?

Brent: I've been out there three times already. It's a fantastic place.

Josh: Is it like a golf membership type of thing.

Brent: Yeah, you can get a monthly membership. So they got the gold and then they've got the diamond, I believe it is. And, uh, it's a really good setup over there. I was fortunate enough in 2018 to go over to the US and surf in Kelly Slater's wave pool, which was— that's right, yeah, which was, which, which was a really good experience. And, um, was the GOAT there? He wasn't there. I saw his locker though and all his stuff in his, in his locker. And, uh, is this— I left some wax in there for him.

Josh: That's his nickname, or is it a—

Tommy: or is he the owner of GOAT? He's the greatest of all time. Greatest of all time. Goat.

Josh: Okay. Yeah. Is that his nickname?

Tommy: I think people call him the Goat.

Brent: Yeah, he's probably one of the best athletes, I believe, across all sports that we've ever seen. You know, the Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan. I mean, he doesn't get the credit because surfing is not really that mainstream sport. But how many world titles has he won? 13, 12 or 13. He's won. Yeah.

Tommy: And he's still surfing.

Brent: He's still surfing.

Tommy: And how old is he?

Brent: 46 or 47.

Josh: What makes a good surfer? What do you know? What are the qualities of a surfer?

Brent: I think, you know, there's performance, like the tricks that they're able to do, style, flow. You know, there's lots of different variables and it's one of those sports, it's really subjective. You know, tennis, we all know the rules of tennis, right? We know a forehand, we know down the line. But surfing's got so many variables and so many uncertainties that a lot of it's subjective. Even, even in the competition, the World Surf League competition, the way they judge it, like, how can you interpret what a great performance is because there's different types of maneuvers, there's aerials, there's like—

Tommy: and then there's human bias, 100%. So it's like movie reviewers now at the individual level rather than sort of the mass social scorecard that's put out like on these— what are they called?

Josh: Like Rotten Tomatoes.

Tommy: Like you get a better sense of a movie based on the fan base or people who are interested versus one gronk.

Josh: Like Dancing with the Stars.

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: Like, you think it's a great performance and then they're like, the lift was wrong. I mean, I think there's a bit of Dancing with the Stars banter.

Tommy: Yeah, it's coming out, I think.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The Richard Wilkins son's on it, actually.

Josh: Oh, that's right.

Tommy: We had Dickie Wilkins on the show.

Brent: I remember you went up to Sydney and shot that one, right?

Josh: Yeah, it was great fun.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Do you think that people don't— so with that surfing barrier of being so subjective, Do you think it's harder for people to get amongst it? You say you watch tennis. I can be a gronk with hardly any information, but I know a fault. I know that, so I can get behind it and yell at the TV screen.

Tommy: There's clear rules and clear way of winning points.

Josh: Yeah. So you can get right into it. You can be a bit of a know-it-all pretty quickly. With the surfing stuff being subjective, I guess it makes a little bit harder as a viewer.

Brent: Yeah. And I think You know, it's a good point. And it's, you know, when you start out as a surfer, as you did, and had that amazing experience where you were shredding. Hey, I was funny. Well, maybe it wasn't. I laughed at Byron Jackson.

Josh: That's good.

Brent: But there's free surfers and there's competition surfers, and we all start off as free surfers, right? And we do it for the love and the joy of it. Sometimes we're not doing it for the love and the joy of it. And then, you know, you kind of like, it goes through this flow when you get more experience. And there's, you know, there's no waves that are ever the same, and there's always something to learn, and it's always changing. And, uh, Yeah, I don't know.

Josh: What about the wave pool then? Do you— are you like, ah, I'm in the machine now and this is the 6th wave and this goes at this length? Like, is it a little bit more predictable?

Brent: Yeah, it is a lot more predictable. So I was out there this morning and, um, you know, there's like 18 people jump in the water on each side. There's a left and there's a right, so a wave breaking from left to right, one breaking from right to left, and you all paddle out together. It's like a queue system where when you go in the ocean there ain't no queues. It's nearly like war, you know, not really, but we all compete. The locals get pissed. Yeah, well, they try to, don't they?

Josh: Who's the Tullamarine locals? Who's the people trying to say you're on our turf?

Tommy: Yeah, they've sorted it. I wonder if that will happen because they've sorted it because it's like you wait and literally one goes, next one's up, one goes, next one.

Josh: I reckon it's this whole— I reckon it's the status thing of the diamond. I'm a fucking diamond. It's like when you fly. Oh yeah. You know, if you get frequent flying, you end up with status. As soon as you get status, when they start calling status and you see people getting in the way that doesn't have status, so you're like, fucking get out of it.

Tommy: Like, I've heard this. I'm on the Eastern Freeway, there's the lane that you have to have more than one per— more than two people in the car, or you have to have two people in the car and you get, you get right-hand lane. And I'm automatically just always looking for the person with more— one person.

Josh: You won't—

Tommy: it—

Josh: fucking get out. Yeah. Anyway, and so, and so the 18 people all taking their their own turn.

Brent: We all paddle out together and it's like a queue. Like when I was 18, 19, I used to walk into Centrelink and line up for the paycheck when I was on the Johnny Howard surf team.

Tommy: That's so funny. I saw you write that the other week. The Johnny Howard surf team.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: Break it down.

Brent: Well, it was Johnny Howard. Johnny Howard was the Prime Minister at the time. I was a young— so I think he was anyway. It's a good joke. But I used to rock up to Centrelink every 2 weeks with me form and walk up to the desk. And I had hair back then. It was a little long and I was probably stoned most of the time when I walked in there. And I used to get like $160 every fortnight and that went to going to the pokies, buying weed and hanging out with my mates, literally. So Johnny Howard surf team, you know, used to go surfing.

Josh: I love that it's not the classic hippie because I love that you've combined sort of hippie culture with the pokies, which is quite fun.

Tommy: Well, he feels like he's going to be lucky. Hippies might feel like they're going to be lucky.

Josh: Yeah. Any, any tips on winning at the pokies? No, no, no, don't go.

Tommy: He's had a win.

Brent: Don't go.

Josh: Don't go. So, like, was it a serious gambling problem you ended up having?

Brent: I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it was a serious one at that point in time, but yeah.

Josh: But now when you're on the roulette, no. Um, that's interesting.

Tommy: It's, it's going to change, it's going to change the face of surfing just in terms of people who are going to be able to get upskilled so quickly.

Brent: Yeah.

Tommy: In comparison to when you had to drive down, hope that there was swell, you didn't even know, you'd drive an hour and a half, hopefully see a peak on the top of the, uh, you know, water out at Phillip Island. When you come into Point Leo, it's like Dealing with seaweed. Dealing with sharks, seaweed. I hope they make it an Olympic sport. I mean, the Olympics is a business and so they're just—

Brent: it's— yeah, so they have. So this year.

Tommy: Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Brent: What?

Tommy: Fucking hell.

Josh: So you send him a letter or something, TJ?

Tommy: I should.

Josh: Well, you don't need to anymore.

Brent: So they're going to incorporate wave pool in the technology because Japan, Japan rarely has waves, tiny waves, but they're going to surf it in pretty hopefully good waves, but it'll probably be 1 to 2 foot and crap. So we won't see the best of the sport.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So it's actually going to be in the ocean?

Brent: Yeah.

Tommy: Oh wow. So it's— yeah, it could be. Hopefully it's not flat.

Brent: There's a zero chance there is. But in terms of changing the face of surfing, from my personal experience, you know, I used to cheque Magic Seaweed every day in terms of what the wind's doing, what's the swell doing, where it's going to be good. And now I'm getting on Urban Surfers website and looking at what time slots are available instead. So yeah, I've got to get back to, you know, surfing more in the ocean. But I guess it's a novelty at the moment. It's super fun. You can go down there with your mates, you know, you're gonna get 15 waves a in an hour and everyone's going to be hooting and—

Tommy: You can have a few beers, have some dinner. You can surf at like 10 PM or something.

Josh: Oh, that's good.

Brent: 10 PM. Yeah.

Josh: So, you know, like rollerblading when you go to the—

Brent: That's just funny.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: When you go rollerblading, they do the speed round.

Tommy: Do they?

Josh: So it's like a speed round if you're like for people who rollerblade fast. Are you talking about the roller rink? Yeah, like rollerblading at like the roller rink.

Tommy: Yes. Yeah.

Josh: Do they have a bigger waves section, like a speed round where it's like the epic surfers?

Brent: Beast mode.

Josh: Beast mode.

Brent: Really? Yeah. So there's like advanced, intermediate, and beginner. And in advance, they've got lots of different levels. They can turn the waves up and down. I'm doing a plug for these guys. It's great. Andy Ross, who I met out there, is the founder and exec. He's a lovely guy. Awesome guy. And heaps of good vibes. But yeah, they got like lots of different settings. So on advanced mode, they got this one called called the Beast Mode, and they can crank it right up and like make it super, super hollow and big and heavy and create these big tubes. The thing is, I don't think they do it for the everyday Joe Blow who goes in off the street because it's concrete bottom. And when you turn it, when you turn it off, it goes super shallow, I've heard. And yeah, it's concrete bottom. So yeah, a bit of carnage out there.

Tommy: You haven't surfed it?

Brent: No, no, I haven't. They haven't turned it up. I'd love to surf it.

Josh: It'd be sick.

Tommy: How do you get it? You just have— you can't.

Brent: It's like, yeah, they've done it for a few of the pros who have gone there. You need the platinum Yeah, yeah, the premium. It's first class. It's basically upgrading.

Tommy: You might be able to upgrade one day, Brent, if you keep going.

Brent: Yeah, sure.

Tommy: So you've bought a business, you've sold your business. You had a— what was your business before? Because when I first met you, you'd sold the business and were creating video content, but I didn't quite get what your business was.

Brent: Yeah, so we're in— I was in the IT industry, which I, you know, after I promoted from the Johnny Howard surf team when I was 19, I got my first job. I was 19 years old. My mum had no money and she said, you got to get a job to, you know, help support her and pay the bills. And so I looked in the Moorabbin Standard, which was a local rag at the time, and I got it. Literally went into an interview in, uh, it was an IT computer place in Hampton.

Josh: And what year was it?

Brent: It was, I don't know, 19— went off in 1995 or '96. It would have been '96. And, um, walked in and the guy who owned the building, the business, he was a surfer as well. And so I was a surfer, and straight away we clicked it off. He goes, yeah, I'll give you a job. I later found out he actually started Barlin Leg Ropes, funnily enough, which is like a classic storey in itself. And so yeah, I got into that when I was there. And then 20 years later or 15 years later, me and a mate, after lots of different storeys and I had another business, me and my mate chucked in $2 grand each in 2011 and built up this business called Engaged Technology Group. And our 5th financial year off $2 grand 5 years earlier, we were turning over $27 million in revenue.

Josh: Wow.

Brent: Making a shitload of money.

Josh: And so what was it, consultancy?

Brent: Was it hardware? Yeah, hardware, software, services and resources. And I'm not an IT tech guy. I mean, I love what technology can do in terms of enabling our lives, you know. I think it's fantastic. But, um, yeah, and like, got to the end of that fifth financial year and I was like, hmm. I went over to New Zealand, went snowboarding, suffered an accident, had concussion, woke up and go, I gotta do something different with my life. It was literally just like that. And I came back and spoke to my business partner Jared at the time, and I said, hey mate, I gotta get out. And he's going, all right, why don't we go for two more years? And I go, okay. And just to get more recurring revenue in our business. Two weeks later, we had a publicly listed company approach us and say, hey guys, you sell your business. I was like, fuck yeah, let's do it.

Tommy: Very serendipitous.

Brent: Yeah, it was, it was, it was strange. And I was approaching my 40th birthday, so I had all this change going on. And yeah, 6 months later, they started, they were gonna sell it to us for 4.5, they were gonna buy it off us for 4.5 million. 6 months later of negotiation and probably us taking our eyes off the prize of the business in itself, because you start getting ideas and getting distracted. Is it gonna happen? Is it not gonna happen? And we ended up selling it for 2.5 mil, which was really cool. Like 5 years early, started with 2 grand.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And then yeah, just yeah, my life went into this massive transition, 3-year transition to bring me to this point today. And been a lot of change. I used to, like when I first left the business, there's like 30 people around, we had a big team, was earning lots of money. And you know, it was funny, like we're throwing these parties for our clients and we could throw a pretty good party. And yeah, and we're delivering heaps of value, but just yeah, had to change. So we changed it and yeah, and then 8 months after, end up separating from ex-wife. We went through a divorce and kind of like then I had no one around me. It's like I had no money, I had no team, and I was kind of like— I remember vividly, you know, I went down the coast down to Jan Juc and we've got a place down there. And I remember like in the foetal position on the floor like crying for about an hour, what the fuck's happened with my life? Um, yeah, I didn't know what I was going to do and I really had to strip everything back and start again. And you know, not start again in terms of I still had some assets and that type of thing, but who the fuck was I? And that was something that was like, you know, 40 years of conditioning my whole life through parents, through, you know, society, through those around me thinking, all right, success means chase money. Okay, I got that and I still feel shit house inside. There's got to be something different. So that was a, you know, probably my rock bottom. And then just worked my way back from there and ended up taking antidepressants for about 4 days. I went to the doctor, said I'm no good. He gave me any antidepressants, started taking those. Remember the first day I had them, I took one and I ended up going surfing that day. My mate, I told my mate about, and he asked me, he goes, um, how does it feel catch a wave without any antidepressants? And I go, I don't know, it was kind of like weird. It was like I didn't get the adrenaline rush or that, for that emotional buzz that I would normally. And had some time to reflect, one day, one day, two day, three day, four, and I just felt like really sick in the stomach and I know I thought, this is not for me. I threw them in the bin, went in the bathroom, and then I'll end up looking at myself in the mirror and go, you got yourself in this situation, you got to get yourself out of it. I just took full 100% ownership for everything in my life, and that was the starting point for probably— it was November in 2009, uh, 2018, um, and then August last year I just felt better and happy and alive again. It was strange.

Tommy: I mean, yeah, it seems weird anti— I've heard that happening on antidepressants. Are you actually thinking— you feeling numb to the whole thing anyway?

Brent: Yeah, it's like I was numb. It numbed me. It numbed the feelings I had. Yeah, so numb the pain, it numbed the emotions that I felt. And I thought, that's not for me because I'm like highly passionate, energetic dude. And what— it was changing who I was at the core, I reckon.

Tommy: What's the retro on— if you're looking at it as like a massive dip in your life, what's the view on that state that people do? I mean, it's all unique to the individual, but looking at that state of a slump or a low point or a rebuilding phase, what's the sort of retrospective look now on how you dealt with it and how new it all was?

Brent: Yeah, look, I think the point that I got to— it wasn't like all of a sudden I felt that way. I think it was a buildup of many years and, and not the best relationship, and then working in an industry where I was working so Super hard. I mean, to build a business that quickly takes a lot of work and I was smashing the hours out. I reckon I was doing 80 hours a week.

Josh: What does the work look like?

Brent: Lots of emails, lots of meetings, you know, like it was kind of like looking like payroll, purchasing stuff, you know, like doing lots of sales calls. I mean, the payroll, once we got to that point, it was kind of like the payroll was like $250K a month. And there were months where we weren't making that much profit. We'd have a month we'd make $100K to $125K profit,. And it's like, holy shit, if we had like 3 or 4 months like that, I could wipe us out. We'd be out of the game. And that, that was probably one of the things that really promoted us to get to, let's sell now while we're on top and get out. Um, but to go back to your question, Tommy, I think it was a buildup of things over a long period of time, and then it's just like rock bottom, and then it's like, okay, like a lag period. You know, if you go to the gym, you start trying, you want to start getting fit, you start training, start training, and don't get the results straight away, but over time they come. And I think where I was in that rock bottom position was a lag period of, you know, all the hard work, some of the bad decisions I'd made.

Tommy: So you weren't listening to yourself when you knew that you felt shit. So you're saying it didn't like all of a sudden come out of nowhere. You were over the time building up to that, obviously feeling stressed about work, all these things. And so it compounds.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: You're not sort of really taking notice of it.

Brent: Yeah. And numbing it. You know, partying and alcohol and drugs and buying stuff. And it's like getting this good feeling, but it's just sugar, right? It's just sugar, and it wears off real quick, and then you have the low point. So I was like that. So I was all through the materialistic stuff, I was accumulating, um, but then I couldn't accumulate anymore. And it was like, just, yeah, like, okay, now what do I do? The feeling I got inside is not the same as what it is now, where it's completely different, where I have less I've been living out of a renovated garage at my mum's place for the past 12 months, and I've never been happier. And it's— but it's taken the last 6 months to get to that turning point, to do heaps of the work. You know, what do I consume in terms of my diet? Who am I hanging out with? Like, I barely drink anymore. Um, so there's lots of different things that I have to change, and I just put my hand up and change them. And then also working on businesses that I'm passionate about. So this morning I was doing product testing in a wave pool for Bell Surf Wax.

Josh: That's great.

Brent: So yeah, people laugh, like, you never work, you never seem to be working. I go, I'm working, this is what I do now. It's just completely different.

Josh: Were you worried about making changes that were drastically going to change your life when you're in a depressed state?

Brent: Yeah, it's a good question. So to step out and, you know, like, leave a relationship that I knew probably wasn't good for me, wasn't good for my for my ex, wasn't good for the kids, to step out into that, and to, you know, that step off the cliff, really very uncomfortable, very uncertain. And, you know, so many people stay in relationships for a number of different reasons, and I'm like, I can't stay in this because—

Josh: when do you know when you need to do the work? When is it worth staying? Well, when is it like putting in the work and being on the other side and being stronger versus saying, actually, yeah, there's nothing productive?

Brent: Yeah, good. It's a good question. You need two people who are committed 100%, and if two people are not committed 100%, then it's never going to work. Um, and then I think we're going to compromise.

Josh: Was that a conversation that— had you come to the realisation that, hey, like, this isn't going to work, or did you find that it happened in stages where you gave all those other—

Brent: yeah, yeah, it's a good, good question. Challenging question, actually. I'll be as honest as possible. Um, you know, I think, I think men— you know, my ex did a great job to stay together for as long as we did. I think our determination to stay together for that long was amazing and I take my hat off to her and also myself for committing for that long. At the end of the day, the people that we were when we met when we were 25, completely different to the people we were at 40, early 40s, completely different. And so lots of change and growth at different times and very incompatible.

Tommy: Is it, I mean, if you're looking at a business and you grow with the business, you know the vision of it. If you're relating that sort of approach to a relationship where you say after 20 years, different.

Brent: Yeah.

Tommy: Have you— are you veering off the vision together, or it just naturally happens that it's evolving to some sort of different vision for the both of you?

Brent: Yeah, it's a good question. So at the age of 25, I remember meeting, meeting Michelle, and I thought, oh, this chick's the best. And like, we had the same— we wanted the same things at that point in time, do you know what I mean? We're young, we're dumb, and like just living life. And we also always used to say to each other, living on love. And got so many awesome— got so many awesome memories with her. And And as the journey goes on, it was like, okay, we want the same thing. And then I think with the business, I invested a lot in my personal development when I was in 2008 or 2009. I did a diploma in coaching and studied NLP and did some other stuff and really changed me. Yet I still had a lot of people around me who probably weren't looking to— they're enjoying life and they're happy with their life and it's fantastic what they do. I don't judge it. From that perspective, people need to do what makes them happy. But I started going down a journey, and then I didn't have the confidence, probably the self-belief I do now. And so then when I— in Engaged Technology Group, building that business and selling it, I got a lot of confidence and saying, well, we set out to achieve something, we did it. Okay, what else are you going to go set out to achieve and do? And I think that was really a really great reference point moving forward. Um, and so I just kept on working on myself and going in a certain direction and following my heart and following my passion. I reckon And at that point in time, the business had taken me one direction, as it does. And then probably my ex Michelle was doing her thing, and just, we're just too far apart to come back together.

Tommy: I mean, the complication with kids, uh, making a choice because it's not just you anymore. What's that process like as a dad?

Brent: I don't want to go into too much detail, but to sit down and have to tell them, have a family conversation and tell them, heartbreaking. The most heartbreaking thing I reckon I've ever had to do in my entire life. Yet what's more heartbreaking would have been staying together for another 20 years. I love me punk rock music and there's a band called No Use for a Name and the start of the song, I can't recall it correctly, says, if we can't be happy living together, dying together is not going to help fix the problem. And I think it's a really good analogy.

Josh: It's very punk rock as well.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love me punk rock. So But yeah, kind of like sums it up. And so, yeah.

Josh: So when you decide to sort of jump off that cliff and take the— I guess there's a lot of risk involved in that sort of, that sort of change.

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: What was the biggest surprise through that whole experience?

Brent: Hmm. You find out who your friends are. I think, you know, it's— I reckon that was the most surprising thing at the time. I'm at peace with it now, but for probably, I reckon, 12 months I wasn't.

Josh: You get paranoid. Do you get like— say if like you do something so extreme in your life, I guess I would feel like I'd be analysing everyone, saying, okay, this— like you, you're meeting everyone at a new level, and so every interaction is up for analysis.

Brent: Yeah, interesting. You do. Yeah. Probably, yeah. I'm just trying to think about what I was thinking at certain times. I think what was kind of good, but good about it, a lot of people like just stepped back, way back, and didn't just— didn't get involved. And I think at the time I was like, at the time it felt like it would have been good to have them around. And now looking back, I think it was great they weren't because it just would have got too complicated and too much interference. And like you said, and analysing what everyone's saying.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: Oh, would have been overwhelming. I reckon at times would have been full on. So I'm grateful for the fact that everyone just kept their distance. And it's funny though, over time and now people come back and then also, you know, not cutting people out but removing certain people creates space for new people to show up. And then the new people that show up based on the energy that I am and what I, what I put out there, you start attracting people with like-minded values and beliefs and, and I've got a great crew of people around me now and I'm stoked. And, you know, some of the ones who have spent a large portion of my life around me, I wish them all the best and love. And yeah, I hope they're happy in their lives and I don't have any kind of ill feelings towards them. But it hasn't always been that way through the journey. It's taken me 2 years to get to that point, which is, you know, it's 2 years Australia day, literally, when we went our own way.

Tommy: So yeah, growing up, your family life, do you sort of approach— I mean, what was your upbringing like?

Brent: Oh, interesting story. So I was adopted when I was born, grew up in an Australian family, found out that I was adopted when I was 5. I had a great childhood, went to a local primary school, and I'm writing about all this in my book at the moment, which I've written 82,000 words. Not bad for an A+ student, or what is that, number 62? Mr. 62. And then, you know, like, Mum and Dad split up when I was 15. And so, like, to reflect back on it, it's like this cyclical pattern that keeps happening, you know, like. And, uh, yeah, it's interesting to reflect back. And, you know, I mean, I met my biological mother when I was 30 and found out the circumstances behind the adoption, that type of thing, which was really, really confronting. I'm not sure if I've shared this with you off air. And, um, yeah, I don't know, like, when I was younger, yeah, I was pretty happy. And then when Mum and Dad broke up, it was really hard. And even with my son, I've seen, seen his world change and I empathise with him. He's a great kid and he's come through it really good. And I think with him, he's had his mum and his dad really, really present through it all, which is really, really important. And, you know, I just had my mum through it. Dad was in Queensland and so we've got a great relationship. But it's funny, I had resentment probably from my childhood and through this process of getting divorced, the people that I've leaned on the most have been my mum and dad. And now we've got these amazing relationships. That have transformed based on going through this pretty shit time.

Tommy: Where was the resentment coming from?

Brent: Oh, Tommy, you're asking some good questions. Um, just blame, like blaming for, you know, like for, for my dad probably not being around and being there. And I don't know, with my mum, I'm not sure. I think, you know, when we're together— I don't know where. So when we were, um, when mum and dad were together, I had a family and like cousins and uncles and aunties. We always socialise together and go to family barbecues and that type of thing. And then um, when they split up, that kind of stopped because people don't know how to deal with it. And the relationships, the dynamics of relationships change. And so I don't know, maybe I had some resentment against my mum around that. And, um, yeah, but like, if I have a look at where it's come, like, I used to have the big Christmases when I was married and lots of people around, and, you know, it was great. And then, you know, this, this year, like, living at my mum's place for the past 12 months, um which has been challenging but great. Now we had this beautiful little lunch, me and her and the two kids, and it was kind of like, see, Mum, you would— this would have never happened. You would never have hosted a Christmas lunch if me and Michelle didn't get divorced. So that was this.

Tommy: I mean, yeah, always. It's a great way to look at it, I think, because what other way is there to look at it?

Brent: Well, you know, everyone's like, you know, things aren't always positive, right? But in every scenario, what I've learned is that there's a positive and negative to everything. And you can find it in both. It's pointless, I think, just to look for the positives or just look for the negatives, which seems to happen. Look for the positive and negative in everything. There's a benefit and there's a pro and a con in every situation.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And you can learn something from everything and everyone.

Josh: I believe it's like when people are made redundant. I feel like when someone leaves a role, people are normally like, I'm so sorry. Like, I— because I've never been really good at working for a company, I always get pumped when someone's like leaving. And it's interesting hearing how people project how they feel about other people's situation. Like, I'm so sorry that you're having to, uh, you know, that you've lost your job, or things like that. How do you frame those types? Like, so for instance, a mate gets a divorce. How do you approach it from your words and how you sort of approach it?

Brent: Um, just say congratulations, how you going on Tinder? No, not really, not really. Um, I think just be there for them, you know, like just be there. I think it's the best way to approach it. Um, people go through a lot of stuff and there's a lot of emotion, and I think if you just be just there for someone and help somebody, that's what you do. Um, I had someone who was a, was a friend who leant in really, really hard to me, and I wouldn't have got through without him. And his name's Brad, and you know, I love him to this day. And, um, he was just there every day, and he called me every day. He come around, he helped me move. He went above and beyond. And knowing that there was a person like that who was a rock when others probably didn't know what to say, didn't know what to do, but he was just there. He was always there and then keep continuing to show up. And he'd been through it as well. And so it's funny though, like, so he'd been through it and so he knew, he knew the stages in the whole, on the whole journey. And now I'm paying that forward to other people.

Tommy: Yeah.

Brent: And I know I've just learned from him and I just model what he did to me. And now that I've learned about the different stages and how you're feeling, what happens, just, just pass it on to the others as well who I've attracted because they've seen how I've gone through it and what I've done and where I'm at today.

Tommy: We've got a good mate of ours, Ryan John, who I filmed a video of him. He was adopted and he was talking on Mother's Day about his story, and it has been viewed 400 million times or something. And it led him down the path to find his biological dad. And now he's like, he's gone over the States to spend time with him and worked out the circumstances of how everything happened. And it's been a positive journey from the outside. And from what he's told me that he went on, when you were working out or wanting to— are you wanting to find out your family and your family origins outside of what you know as mum and dad, which aren't mum and dad?

Brent: Yeah, like, so yeah, I met my biological mother when I was 30. Michelle was pregnant with our first at the time, she was 30 weeks, and I saw how she was feeling through it, and I thought— the realisation came was like, holy shit, someone's actually carried me around in their stomach. And I've contacted the Department of Human Services, got in touch with them Filled out a form, sent out a check, $60. Didn't have a checkbook. Like, who has checks, right? What the fuck? End up in this room with like this session, like 10 people sitting around the room, this facilitator.

Josh: And who are the 10 people?

Brent: Other adoptees.

Josh: Oh really?

Brent: We were all in the room together.

Josh: I'm like, I thought it was going to be like you had to pick out who she was. You had to fucking guess out of the 10. It's like, it's an extra $60. If you want just the one, but if you start with 10.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: How full on. And so you're there and so you've got 10 adoptees.

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: And you're having conversations about what the experience could be like.

Brent: Yeah, it was this facilitator session, like, what do you know about your past? And everyone shared. And then like, that went for about an hour. And then she said, well, I'm going to leave the room now. I'm going to go get your files and come back. And so she left the room, came back with these manila folders. Kind of reminded me of Year 12 English. I hated my fucking English teacher. Fucking bitch. Only because she hated me. Oh, I had a lot of hate back then. Now I've just got love. Um, and then she comes back into the room and starts handing out these manila folders. And like, I was second, so she was sitting here, I was over there. Second, she puts it down in front of me and she goes, yours is an interesting one. And I'm like, oh yeah. And you open it up and there's a birth certificate with a completely different name, completely different— all the details are all different. You're like, who the fuck am I? Which one am I? Am I this one or this one?

Tommy: It's the Jason Bourne all over again. Yeah, yeah.

Brent: And it was almost— oh, like, I'll never forget it.

Josh: Fuck. Huh? Bit of a head fuck.

Brent: Yeah, total, total head fuck. My identity was like challenged massively.

Josh: Almost like you've been in the, um, like a spy or something and they've just handed over, you know, like you see that in movies or whatever.

Brent: Yeah, it was really intense and full-on. And like, open it up and have a look 'Birth certificate.' Bang. 'Who the fuck's that?' And it was me, you know. And I remember looking up and you look around the room, I was crying and everyone else was crying after them, looked at theirs, everyone's in the same boat. Um, and then started reading the information behind, you know, my biological mother's pregnancy and the application from my adoptive parents and what they did and what they went through. And, you know, and then the session winds up and the lady says, 'Well, you've learned a lot today.' I probably encourage you to wait about 6 months and then potentially send off a letter. And I'm sitting there going, fuck that, I'm going to go find her straight away. And literally within 2 days I'd located her, found her, spoke to her and met her.

Josh: How do you— how do you go through that process? So they've given you a file. Are there laws around it? Like, what's, what's the whole deal?

Brent: I just looked up her surname and, you know, I was born in the Royal Women's Hospital and I just looked up that surname, typed it into Yellow Pages at the time, .com.au, and 7 plug. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: White Pages, was it, or was it Yellow Pages?

Brent: Yellow Pages back then.

Josh: Oh really?

Brent: Yeah, I remember so clearly. And, um, 7 listings came up and I go, it's that one. It was in South Melbourne. I rang it, I said, oh hello, he's, um, the person's— I won't mention it on here. And, um, she said it was an older lady, had a thick accent, no darling, she's in Shepparton. And I'm like Okay, thanks. Hung up the phone. I go, that was my grandma. And a while later found out it was. Well, like, it was bizarre. And then typed in the surname Shepparton, and only one listing came up. And g'day, does the 25th of October 1976 have any meaning in your life? And she's like, who is this? Blah blah. It was actually her sister at the time, and then we met 2 days later. Wow, full on. All right, just full on.

Josh: Went to Shepparton.

Brent: No, we end up meeting in Melbourne and, uh, that was the bizarrest moment. My ex said to me, do you want me to come with you? And I said, no, I'll go on my own. And, uh, and I'm driving out, parked the car, and it was— and we met this cafe. And I remember running— I remember I got out of the car, started walking down this hill, and I could see them though waving at me, her and her sister. And I started running, I started running, and the music started playing. I'm not shit, you know. And then I was like running, I'm like I was like, what the fuck are you doing? And so then I just started walking, and then I got to them.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Brent: And I got to them, they're just like all over me, just kissing me and hugging, and I was just fucking invading my personal space, like full on. And I was like, to me they felt like strangers.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Brent: But they knew who I was, do you know what I mean?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Brent: They remember giving me up, and they remember searching for me after they'd given me up for adoption. And then so they didn't use Yellow Pages.

Tommy: Yeah, but they didn't have the information.

Brent: They didn't have the information at all. And then, yeah. And then so once I, once I sort of pushed them off me, I looked down and I go, are you pregnant? And she goes, yeah, I've had no other children other than you. And I'm like, fuck, I've got a sister. And I was an only child growing up, so I've got a half sister. And so, yeah, she was due to be born a month after Mav, and she's Mav's auntie, yet she was going to be born after him, which is kind of bizarre, right? Yeah, so that was full on. And then, you know, obviously, you know, had the conversation and then asked, okay, so why'd you give me up for adoption? And she was— she responded, I was very young, I was 16 years old, and she was sexually abused. And, you know, that really rocked my world in terms of who I was and my identity and led me to making some decisions later on that, you know, weren't good decisions for my life and also my marriage. And, um, yeah, and It was a hell of a journey. Yeah. So I didn't think we're going to go down this path.

Josh: And so like, you're—

Tommy: thank you for sharing.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, no, you're welcome.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so what is that? How much does that transform you, do you think, when you find out something, something like that?

Brent: Yeah, it really knocked me around a lot. I was in shock. I went home to my wife and at the time, and then I said, I can't talk to anyone. I just need to go and be in a room on my own and I was in that room for a day. I didn't want to leave it. Yeah. And then obviously life goes on. You got to come out of it and live life. And yeah, it was super challenging.

Josh: What did you learn about storeys or narratives? Like, I guess within life we all have our narrative.

Brent: Great question.

Josh: Yeah. And then when it suddenly changes, what have you learned?

Brent: Yeah, well, I've learned, you know, we get the opportunity to write our own storeys and we've got our own set of beliefs. And this is what I talk to a lot of people, you know, Who are you as a person? Focus on your values and beliefs. Focus on your personality and characteristics and your talents, abilities, and skills. And write all that stuff down around who you think you are and who you really think you are. You know, like go into a room, put some music on that you might love or a really place you feel really empowered and just start writing, writing, writing. Because that's— and then look at it, look at the page and say, this is what I did anyway. Is that what I'm living out right now? And for me, I wasn't. And so was it—

Tommy: it was the person you wanted to be, or is it—

Brent: yeah, what's interesting, isn't it? So where does this stuff come from? Does it come from our unconscious? Does it come from our soul? Does it come from our heart? Where does it come from? I mean, there's so many different theories, right? Um, but I think it's a combination of all of it and the person that I believe I am and who I want to be. Um, and then it's about how do you bridge that gap? And then that's not always a quick process, and it can take time, and life goes on, and we've got distractions, we've got pressures, we've got kids, we've got businesses, we've got work. When do you create that time for yourself? And, you know, since, since separating the last couple of years, I was really, really mindful to spend lots and lots of time on my own. Um, because I see a lot of people, they'll jump out of a relationship and I'll go straight into another one, straight into another one, straight into another one. And I could see that playing out. I didn't want to do that, so I spent lots of time on my own just to really understand who I, who I am as a person, um, without any distractions and without any sugar. Um, to figure out who I am as a person. I'm still figuring it out. I don't have all the answers. I'm still making it up every day, you know what I mean?

Josh: And so our past, our past experiences, how much do you think that is us? Or how much, you know, how much is that— yeah, how much is that us?

Brent: Oh, I think it's kind of like our, our history, right?

Josh: Um, and how important is our history in regards to how we live our day to day?

Brent: For me, to answer that question, I don't have the answers. I learned how to forgive myself, and through that process, that helped a lot. And then I learned how to forgive others, which also helped a lot, because then that enables them to forgive themselves in their lives. But I, I don't know the answer to that question. That's a tough— yeah, and you ask me some deep questions.

Josh: And so when you have done the forgiving Uh, do you then have to reconcile the fact that other people might not be ready or on the same journey?

Brent: Yeah, I think so. For me, you know, meaning and reframing the meaning of the events in my life has been massive. There's a book by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, is about, um, the Holocaust. And this, this, this guy and his wife were prisoners of war, and they knew they were going to die. And he literally watched his wife die, yet he found inner peace and happiness whilst this was going down. Viktor E. Frankl, it's an amazing book. Um, and you got to let people go. You got to, you got to allow people to go on their own journey and learn for themselves. And when they're ready and when their time comes, they'll make the decisions themselves. And I think that's something, you know, I was in a codependent relationship from the start And so to come out of that and fully let go of that, and that takes time too. We can only ever control ourselves, our thoughts, our emotions, our feelings, our actions. It's us. There's nothing else.

Josh: Yeah. Um, what about like that school of thought, or like what society says around like selfishness or individualism? How can you, how can you frame these things on like focusing on the self without the selfish?

Brent: Everyone's selfish is my belief. Yeah, we all are, whether or not we like to admit it or not. We're all doing things for our own interests, whether or not that's somebody who, you know, is always there for their family and friends and does things for them. They're doing that obviously to help, but also for their own reasons, you know, so they feel good about themselves. And that could be even covering up a bit of a wound or a hole they might have inside. Um, they're saving everyone else but forgetting to save themselves, you know. Do you know what I mean?

Tommy: Is being selfish— I'm just trying to think about if you're choosing yourself or choosing to, say for instance, it's you need to start losing weight, you start going to the gym and you have to be quite selfish in terms of what you need to do to achieve that for yourself. But the flow and effect for the people around you might make you happy. I mean, there's probably better examples around mental health and being able to put those boundaries in place that affect. So there's a decision on you to take control for yourself that affects others. Yeah, but then in turn it helps your relationships.

Brent: Yeah, well, I think, you know, like, if we do the work on ourselves, we come from a place where we— if we love ourselves and we can love others, you know, you would have heard of the analogy, the full cup, you know, if we've got enough, enough in our tank, we can give to others. Um, from my observations and experiences, when I've been in my, my pain, I project my pain onto other people and create more pain, and then they're in pain and they're pushing more pain out. But if we've got love um, in our hearts, and we can, we can love. And then through loving unconditionally, then other people are like, they're free to love.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: I mean, I'll go into town and do some consulting, and there's, you know, you know, the homeless situation in our country. I walk past people all the time, and I see most people in society just walking past without a second thought, not even. And there's this one guy, every day I'm in there, I go and sit down with him, have a chat, give him some cash, go get him— give him some— go to 7-Eleven, get a hot chocolate and give him some of that. And I just sit there and just love him unconditionally. Back in the day, there was a time I went and bought a guy a bottle of wine, a pack of ciggies, and also a Big Mac meal. It was loving unconditionally. And if we love someone—

Josh: it's a good combo as well.

Brent: It's a sick combo. But if we can love somebody like that, how are they going to feel? They're going to— that guy fucking wasn't like the other 99% of the population.

Josh: And so that love piece, you talked about, um, your relationship with your ex and it was like built on love, I think, at the start. Has your definition or how you look at love changed?

Brent: Fuck, these are good questions. These are great questions. Um, I think you need to really love yourself. So when we met it was like, I think, more mind rather than heart. I was looking for family at the time, which she had, big family. Oh, that ticks a box, that's good, that feels good. Even though she was hot as when I met her and I loved her and like, you know, I was into— we're both into each other physically. Um, still a beautiful lady today. Um, yeah, we're very codependent. Um, and then now I'm, you know, I just love me for who I am as a person, and that's taken a long time to get to that point.

Josh: Um, so was it different then? Is that like—

Brent: yeah, it is different. It's more mature. It's like—

Josh: because I feel like— it sounds like potentially like if, if love's coming from inside, you need to reconcile the stuff that's inside. So if you haven't got that worked out, we can superficially tick some boxes, or love then becomes projected based on what we think we want.

Brent: Yeah. And, and yeah, sure. And like, I don't know, I haven't fallen in love again yet, I don't think. Although it's pretty funny, um, I've fallen in love 3 times in the last 6 months. Come on, mate. They're like, you've only met her once. It's quite funny actually, but I'm just a really passionate guy. Like, I don't know.

Tommy: Are you more truthful than you were, do you think?

Brent: Yeah, way more truthful, but through self-awareness and life experience, I guess.

Tommy: Okay, around that, it's not that you're lying before, but it's truth to yourself could be understanding yourself better and acting in a way that serves that or opens that up more. Or, you know, say your truth, you're living that more. Yeah, you're not a part of that business world that's highly pressured and anxious and, you know, builds that cortisol level constantly. Like, you're going, I know that's there, but fuck it, I'll just make more money or do something, you know. So it's facing the truth of I don't need to do that, I don't need to live that way.

Brent: Yeah, living way more truthfully to who I am. And you know, the more I've lent into that, it seems as though that my external world has changed a hell of a lot, and I feel happier, and I've got more love and happiness to give. And I've had so many people lately say, oh, your energy, like, fuck, what's happened to you? And I go, I don't know. And I don't, I don't, I've just lent in, lent in, lent in, lent in, and And now I'm doing the stuff I love to do. I'm working on the businesses that I love to work on, and I know I'm just happy.

Josh: You're talking about the cyclical stuff, like you're just getting into a bit of a cycle and you see it coming.

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: Have you gotten— using that example of, you know, you meet someone and you might sort of see that codependent bit in you, or the person who's super passionate— do you start to see those things and see them as signs that are like, I actually want to stop this cycle, I want to adjust?

Brent: Hmm, that's a good one. Yeah, maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit for sure, because it takes— it's not just because like you have a, I want to be this way, it happens automatically. It takes time, that lag period again, right? Yeah. Um, fuck, these questions are fucking challenging, man.

Tommy: We're psychoanalysing it right now.

Josh: Yeah, and we've got no, uh, accreditation, not even a Cert 2.

Brent: This is what podcasting is.

Tommy: 3.

Josh: Yeah, by the way, is there a Cert 2? I don't know, you can get Cert 2 in anything.

Tommy: I got a Cert 4 in PT. Does it mean I got Cert 1, 2, 3, and then 4?

Brent: Yeah, I wonder why they start at 4. I'm not like— I've made so many fucking mistakes, and I reckon that's a secret to— you got to be willing to make mistakes, and I've made all of them. Yeah, and I fucking love it because brought me to the point that I'm at today, and I'll continue to make mistakes my entire life. And I'm, and I'm cool with that and I'm comfortable with that.

Tommy: Um, just quickly on the, on money, people's relationships with money, do you think people's desire to make money— so if it is a goal, I want to make cash, lots of it— do you think it's counterproductive in the long term? In, in, in the, you know, so let's say for instance, can you be fulfilled with just seeking money?

Josh: Like, are there people doing it well that actually do it?

Tommy: Because I think the people promoting the hustle and all of that shit. Yeah, Gary Vee, you know, do the business stuff, make the money. Like, is— do you think it's sustainable for any form of happiness?

Brent: I think if you're, if you're aware— I think if you've got low levels of self-awareness, you see a lot of people and they're, they're chasing, chasing coin and chasing materialistic things. And at a level, they'd be making money to buy shit, to get the sugar And I think at some point in time they're going to have a fucking realization.

Josh: Do you not eat sugar, by the way? Do you quit sugar?

Brent: Yeah, well, I like, I like lollies, but I don't have it in my coffee.

Josh: Um, what does that mean?

Tommy: No sugar?

Josh: Well, no sugar in your coffee, but you eat—

Brent: sorry, I like lollies.

Josh: But you eat them? So lollies?

Brent: Yeah, yeah, I like fucking snakes. They're good.

Josh: Do you eat them every day?

Brent: Um, what's been hard at my fucking mum's joint because she fucking loves them, you know.

Josh: Hey man, yeah, I can relate. My mum Yeah, yeah.

Brent: Um, what was the question?

Tommy: Just around the money. I've thought it through a bit more.

Brent: Yeah, yeah. Um, so there's lots of people in the generation, you know, the 20s and 30s, and think that's what success is. And that's what I was chasing to be happy. And I got what I thought was a level for me that would make me happy and had a lot of fun with it. And then a lot of it I don't have anymore yet. I've still got some of it, um, and now I'm leaning into the things I'm passionate about. And my belief is that me doing the work and showing up with who I am as a person will create more money than I've ever created. Yet that's not the primary driver for what I'm doing.

Tommy: Which is a good belief because I think most people probably choose the old aim to make money based on it being a more clear thought in your mind of that's how I make money versus go the other way, spend time doing something I love, which can essentially make a lot of money. I mean, if you're just choosing to be— you love your saxophone, it's probably not a clear route to making cash. Sure, big cash. But yeah, so it's a weird one because I think that's where the, the enticement to have money as a goal is there, based on you just— it's making more sense to your mind versus taking this approach.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't buy happiness at the end of the day. It's fucking pretty fucking straightforward and simple. You can't. I mean, you can buy 10 mil. 10 mil in a Tesla, I reckon.

Tommy: Not bad.

Brent: Yeah, it would wear out. Yeah, it'd wear out.

Josh: I don't know, get new tires, put in index updates, put in an index fund. The 10 mil. No, no, I get— and it's interesting because when you chase the cash, you don't have to do the internal work. And that's what, like, my— the thing that I constantly think about is it's like when I focus too much on the money problems, I'm like reframing of like, which bit is the money problem? How much of this is a money problem? And I think that money is an interesting one because it's, it's very real. You can see it. It's like, uh, if you don't have money in the bank, if you can't pay something, it's a very easy, tangible, tangible bit of friction.

Brent: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: But it's a, it's the second or third thought around, okay, well, what, why What is this? What am I actually worried about? Yeah.

Brent: And so I don't know, I like had no money when I was like 18, 19. I didn't have money. And then I worked and I got money and I was like, oh, I felt fucking good. I got a bit more. Oh, now I can go do this and go do that. And then I got more and I was like, hmm, this is good. This is fucking good. Give me more of this shit. And then yeah, I got more and more and more. And I was like, nah, there was a point in time for me where I had an awareness like, holy shit.

Josh: Do you ever think about, fuck, if I had the cash now with the internal work Oh yeah, it'd be pretty, pretty good.

Brent: Yeah, I like it. It was fascinating, you know, like I'm about to settle and I can't, I fucking can't believe it. I've bought 7 properties in my life and as an 18, 19-year-old kid, I don't know if I saw one of them and then gave the other one to my ex happily, by the way, because, you know, my kids are there half of the time. That I'd never thought that would happen. I had a belief when I was younger, how can you do that? How do they do that? And then it's through the doing. And you learn how to do it and it's actually not that hard, but it's all the fucking forms and shit you got to do.

Josh: Admin. Are you good with admin?

Brent: No, but I'm really fucking determined and I just won't stop until I get to the outcome. But even that, but that belief to get to that point, I was like, holy, I never thought I would have done that. And now I'm like, you know what, I'm going to go and get 20.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And I reckon I will in the next 10 years. I'll just keep going, keep going, keep going because the belief's there.

Josh: How do you keep it in check? What's the different framing?

Brent: Yeah.

Josh: So you don't end up with another concussion and a—

Brent: Sure. My reason why. My reason why.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And so through, you know, the vehicles, you know, my businesses now, two of them around, well, really three of them around creating positive change in society. And I see that now as a fuel to grow and expand and scale those businesses. Because I mean, going through, you know, the separation and divorce and going to move into my mum's house and renovating a garage and living in that, it's just brought me back to my roots of who I was, an 18, 19-year-old punk-rocking skate, skater, surfer. And I fucking love that, and that's my happiness.

Josh: Yeah.

Brent: And that's like, once you know that, um, then that changes everything. It's changed everything for me. However, I'm not naive enough to say if the money starts coming and when it starts growing and expanding, I've got to be careful. And I reckon I'm gonna have to cheque myself for sure, because it'd be easy to get sucked into that thought process again because there's 15 or 20 years of patterning in my brain and it's there. And yeah, we can rewrite it with new memories and new storeys and that type of thing. And neurology, like the need of the record, it doesn't just change. It needs to be scratched a lot. And you know, I'm only 2 years into this journey or 2 or 3. So the early days, early days, 100%. Yet it doesn't feel like— it's bizarre.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Brent: A lot of psychoanalysing going on here, Josh. Yeah, I thought you were the funny guy.

Tommy: That was funny.

Josh: Funny, Brent, mate, we should go surfing this year, 2020. Sick.

Tommy: Yeah, where? No, not Jan Juc. You will probably lose us.

Josh: Well, yeah, I think we could start Urban Surf. Yeah, I mean, I like— so the urban surf thing we're definitely going to do.

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: I like the idea. I feel like you're sort of one with nature. You can get around that, bring in the hippie vibe. Maybe you could do a bit of pokies afterwards.

Tommy: You got a place down at, uh, Jan Juc?

Brent: Yeah, and it's funny, it's funny you say that. I've actually been doing work with corporate teams. I took the Melbourne United basketball team.

Josh: All to the pokies. All right guys, now I'll teach you chance.

Brent: They had a preseason camp down there. All their team came together 9 days before the season starts. The Australian players, some of the imports from the NBA, they all came together. Took them down for a 3-day trip down the coast, put them in Airbnbs, training facility, ran a workshop, took them surfing. And that's kind of like one of the businesses I do now is around that.

Josh: Oh, great.

Brent: So yeah, let's do it.

Tommy: We can do it.

Brent: We can have the Daily Talk Show team surfing. Yeah, that'd be sick, right?

Josh: I've got a friend, Sarah Lee. She lives in Hawaii and she does these epic surf photos, and it would be great. One day I'd love to go surfing and we can get the Daily Talk Show full photo shoot experience.

Tommy: Surf while surfing?

Josh: While surfing, like underwater. What about some underwater stuff?

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, quicker to get that done if we go to Urban Surf. We could just get on one wave, whether you get it.

Josh: But I like it. I do. I like the idea of the problem with going, I guess, sort of like a controlled environment is you don't like— I've got a slight, not a fear, but the whole thing with the ocean of like not knowing what's under your feet. If I know that it's concrete, it's too easy. I feel like part of it is like if I feel seaweed or whatever, I'm like, ah, like, what the fuck?

Tommy: I mean, if you get the seaweed, you got to learn how to surf first.

Josh: Well, I reckon, I reckon like I can get on the board. So I can get on the board. Yeah, I mean, I can't get up on the board.

Tommy: And so once the board's happening, we can get in doing some sort of just jump-ups, see if you—

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, we could do that. Let's do some Insta storeys about if you jump up, see if you— Yeah, I actually think I'd be, yeah, quite good. But core, core strength is obviously an important part.

Brent: Yeah, it helps.

Josh: Yeah, maybe I could do some of those fucking um, paddle standing stuff.

Tommy: SUPs. SUPs.

Brent: Stand-up paddleboard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Get around that.

Tommy: Yeah, it looks like a real grommet.

Josh: Is that a grommet thing? I feel like more sort of Indonesian, sort of like just sort of zen type of thing.

Brent: No, you are a funny guy.

Josh: That's all I want.

Tommy: It's never that positive when someone calls you a funny guy.

Josh: Yeah, funny guy. Actually, funny guy in Bali, that's what they call me. Funny boy. Funny boy. Yeah, when I was like 1998, I went there, had blonde hair or whatever, little fat kid. And, uh, yeah, I had a harmonica that I bought, and I was fucking obsessed about like buying a laser. You know, you go on the market, they're selling lasers or whatever in Kuta, and, um, my parents wouldn't let me get one. And so then years later I went to Thailand and bought like a fucking, like, 21— bought like, I bought an industrial-grade laser. It was fucking— it was awesome, but it couldn't fly. Like, I spent like—

Tommy: joke's on you, Mum.

Josh: Yeah, I spent $50 on it.

Tommy: It.

Josh: And then obviously I couldn't take it home, couldn't take it on the plane, and so just gave it to some like random locals. Yeah, I think they thought they'd hit the jackpot. It was a great laser. Anyway, uh, Brent, thank you for coming on the show.

Brent: Thanks for having me, Josh.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Uh, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe. We're on YouTube as well. Uh, otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.

Josh: You shuckers.