Spirituality & Horoscopes

Josh: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 583.

Josh: Happy Monday. What's happening, guys? What's going on?

Tommy: You had a bit of an indoor fountain at your house.

Josh: Yeah, you know, just some waterworks. Yesterday the storm hit in Melbourne. I mean, where else? I think it only hit in the suburb and the surrounding suburb to me and nowhere else. I got a text message yesterday from my insurance company, my car insurance company, saying, get it. There's going to be hail in your suburb, make sure you put your car underneath or something like that. Maybe my insurance policy doesn't cover hail. That's what it's telling me.

Tommy: I can't remember. That's great, isn't it?

Josh: But my car was inside and I was like, oh, okay. And then I'm doing meal prep in the kitchen and then it's like, holy shit, it's raining. Oh my God, it's hailing. And then all of a sudden I had my headphones on, so I was a bit disorientated. I just felt water and I was like, oh, what's— You know, when you can't hear what's going on, like I had a podcast on.

Tommy: What were you listening to?

Josh: Bill Maher and Joe Rogan. And then I look up and there's a fountain. The downlight is just water pouring out of it. The light was still on. I'm like, oh fuck, I had to take a photo of it. The light was still on when I took a photo of it, which everyone pointed out to me. And I was like, mate, it was too quick. I had to quickly get evidence. And then I got the bucket and then I turned the light off and the light didn't blow, which was great. They're LED lights, so maybe there's a difference there. But yeah, there must have been something wrong with the roof. Like some, I think there's a there was a tile missing and there was so much water. Mate, our place isn't the problem. I was worried for next door because they've been flooded 4 times. And when I say flooded, I mean the whole house filled with water. I hear in the driveway, I thought it was a wave, but it was the guy's Hilux or the big car.

Tommy: Oh, it was just his brother getting Maccas.

Josh: No, he vroom comes in and the whole driveway was filled with about a foot of water. And then he gets up and fucking, He's like banging on the door trying to get his brother to open the garage, and they had to open the front door and the garage. And when they opened the garage, about a foot of water that had piled up just started flowing out down the driveway. His tools were all in the shed and they were floating away. I was fucking grabbing the tools.

Tommy: Is there a better way of doing it? Like, if there's all that water, you know that when you open the door, the water's going to go in.

Josh: No, no, you open the garage so it flows through. Basically, there's no other option because it's like the house is in the stream and the back door is upstream, the garage door is downstream. You have to open the doors to let it go through, so it's flooded anyway. So their whole house had about a foot of water through it and it was just pouring out and there was tools going down. I was grabbing them fucking as they're going past.

Tommy: And how, how deep?

Josh: I fell over and it was up to my waist at one point. And the house, the house inside the house, it was like a foot of water.

Tommy: Did they seem annoyed?

Josh: They've had it. This is their fifth time it's happened.

Tommy: By the fifth time, what's the vibe?

Mason: Very high insurance premiums.

Josh: They don't, that won't be, they can't insure based on it happening so often. The council won't fix it. Absolute pricks. They've submitted to the— it's the council's problem because they haven't channelled the water. They don't— haven't done the drainage. They've said they will do it. They come and look at it. They don't do it. She actually said to me, Jackie, lovely, love— we're—

Tommy: we're—

Josh: she said, can you please mention which council? Look up what Bulleen Council is. I'll send this snippet. They said that they were going to do it. They've received many letters and this poor family has been put out fifth time.

Tommy: So what happens now with their house?

Josh: Well, I was in there with about 10 other people with brooms pushing the water out the front door. And so they've got used to it. So they lift everything up off the ground, as in like anything worth lifting off the ground.

Tommy: The whole house is like the interiors on stilts.

Josh: Now they pull out all the, you know, electricals and it's, it's so full on, dude. It's such a pain in the ass for them. And so anyway, we helped out. So does that mean that by the end of the night they were in our place and we're drinking wine and having a few beers?

Tommy: Oh great, I see you had a—

Josh: Yeah, I said I wish this could have happened on a better circumstance. Yeah, come over for beers when it hasn't been flooded. And then she got us a pizza.

Tommy: Oh, that's nice. Where from? Which one?

Josh: Molino's.

Tommy: Oh, that's nice.

Josh: One of the best. She's like, do you want me to bring— we're going for dinner, do you want me to bring you back pizza? We said yeah, that's amazing. And then all of a sudden we got a medium prosciutto pizza delivered to our door at 8:45. It's the best. Bodhi had a slice, I had a slice. Amy had a slice, then I continued to have slices.

Tommy: Yeah, I had, I had 3. Actually, talking about slices, uh, had pizza on Friday with, uh, Happy Harry.

Josh: Oh yeah, Happy Harry. That was lovely to see Happy Harry. Yeah, he makes me happy when I see him, and it makes Amy happy when she saw him too. I love Harry.

Tommy: Well, he was— he slept over at our place. Yeah, because the, the last train He was going from Wodonga, maybe.

Josh: He was coming from Warrnambool.

Tommy: Warrnambool. Thank you. That's it.

Josh: He has to get back up to—

Tommy: But he couldn't get to— Basically, you catch a train into the city, but then if he was to get the train home, it'd be too late.

Josh: Oh, you said his dad would have had to drive 2 hours at 11 PM. Yeah.

Tommy: And so he's like, you got to stay in Melbourne. And so he stayed at ours joint. And so he was actually— He was on Instagram and we're trying to find stuff to watch. On Apple TV and he was, he said, our Queen Gronkh is posting about the Wiggles are doing a like a special concert.

Josh: Oh, a relief concert from the RSL in Sydney. The, find out, it's, I think Amy used to live in that suburb.

Tommy: Really?

Josh: What's it called? Castle Hill RSL. That's a big one.

Tommy: Sounds about right. And so we're watching all of that. That was awesome.

Josh: This was the old Wiggles, not the new Wiggles. So did you hear what happened? One of them had a old money yak arrest.

Tommy: So that— no, it's not funny at all.

Josh: I know, I'm laughing because it's so outrageous.

Tommy: It was so not like it was. It was such a nice event and it was like I was getting right behind it because, yeah, the— there's something very nostalgic specifically about Greg, the Yellow Wiggle. Yeah, I guess because being the frontman, I've got like memories of, you know, just his voice. Being the frontman? Not being the frontman. Memories of him. Of him.

Josh: Yes.

Mason: Okay.

Tommy: And so at the end of the concert, he fell over and they had to perform CPR. If they didn't perform CPR, he would have died.

Josh: So a cardiac arrest means his heart completely stopped. A heart attack—

Tommy: yeah, I'm not sure—

Josh: doesn't necessarily mean—

Mason: yes, they had to use a defib.

Josh: Oh yeah, so remember how Craig Harper did this to his friend?

Mason: Shocks with the defib.

Josh: Yeah, his heart has stopped. That's starting your heart again. That's full-on, dude. I mean Is it— did it just— is that just random that it happened?

Tommy: Or— so he's— he had to finish up too hard. He had to finish up with the wiggles because he had severe— what's when you're real tired all the time?

Josh: Insomnia? No, chronic fatigue.

Tommy: Yeah, he had like severe fatigue and then he would also faint, all these things. And so, yeah, it—

Josh: Aussie hero gone down. Lucky I saw that he was like there was a paramedic there. So this is the bit I saw from my peripheral. I didn't even know it happened at the event. I thought he was just walking down the street. And so there was a nurse that helped do the resuscitation on the—

Tommy: Yeah, the drummer of The Wiggles was doing it alongside a nurse that was just there attending. It's how— but it's so lucky. And so they're—

Josh: Out of us, who's going down with a heart attack while doing the show?

Tommy: Because it's pretty dark.

Josh: No, but it's also like, great. That's how hard he's gone.

Tommy: Well, the other funny thing is, you know, you got no sense of people's age. And we're saying, we're like, fuck, they look good. It's like, you know, they must be 60. Like, they look so good for 60. Anyway, turns out he's 48. That's why he looks so good for 60. But, you know, I think it's hard to tell because sometimes the fittest people are the ones that— True. I mean, because it's always—

Josh: you always hear this, mate.

Tommy: Yeah, you always hear the storeys of like, oh man, you know, They would go to the— they would run 6 days a week.

Josh: It just stops.

Tommy: I was gonna say 6 times a day.

Josh: I mean, I went for a run this morning around my neighbourhood to see the destruction, and there was just trees had been just blown down, massive gum tree just breaking off.

Tommy: That was on the news, was it? Yeah, the big gum tree was on the news.

Josh: A, um, power line went down at the front of our place.

Tommy: Did you lose power?

Josh: I, I don't. So when I say power line, it was from the power line grid, but it mustn't have lost power because it— I think it was a smaller cable. I think it was some other cable, so it didn't, didn't remove power. Luckily all of ours was on. Next door neighbors, they, they lost a bunch of power because of the water.

Tommy: And so what happens with you now, now that you have that— like, you discover that there's a tile missing, which always I find super surprising, the idea that it only takes one tile. Yeah, you have one tile missing and everything can come in.

Josh: But it's also the amount of water in the small amount of time, so We've never had that. There's been rain there. I had my personal training studio years ago would have happened the same thing when there was torrential rain for, you know, 10 minutes. But the agent said that they're coming around, so hopefully— I sent them photos.

Tommy: And what'd they say?

Josh: Oh no, we're gonna speak to the insurance company. It's just a pain in the ass for everybody, really.

Tommy: Well, my place got fully flooded that time. Uh, in Abbotsford when there was the fire.

Josh: Your apartment?

Tommy: Yeah. Did it—

Josh: shit. So because we haven't spoken about this, so you— no, no, your apartment next door burnt down because someone knocked over a bong.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: But the guy who lived there commented on something that we—

Tommy: yeah, so no, you have no— so, uh, Tommy Faith, who lived next door to me on the other side, ah, he is the executive producer at, um, Triple J Unearthed.

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: And he's originally from Sydney and we got along. He was actually the guy who I gave him our internet for like 6 months.

Josh: Oh, yes. So that had nothing to do with the house that actually burnt down.

Tommy: And so, you know, when the house burnt, when the apartment burnt down, surprisingly, when it was all happening, the guy whose house was burning down, they knocked on their house first. Before telling me about it, and I'm next to him. But I think it was because they're a family and he knew that they were home.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so anyway, I, um, because of all the, um, sprinklers going off— the sprinklers didn't even go off in our house, but because they went off next door, it seeped through and we had probably 15 centimetres of water through the house. And so they had to vacuum it all up.

Josh: And yeah, it's a pain in the ass. It's a pain in the ass, all these things.

Tommy: How was the— I mean, Balwyn North, you guys got hit with that as well?

Mason: Oh yeah. My, my next door neighbours, they had, because they're on like the downhill or whatever, they had to put sandbags in front of their, all their fencing so the water wouldn't come into their property.

Tommy: And then they already had sandbags.

Mason: Nah, so yeah, yeah, they had them at home and so they ran out like mid, mid-storm or whatever and was just like putting them up against the fence. And then, I mean, our street was flooded, but we're on the upper hill, so it just literally goes through.

Josh: Living at the top.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's interesting, like, because if there wasn't damage, I would love— like, I love storms. I was waiting when I saw it. I was like, yes. Like, when I saw that the storm was coming, I was like, I'm getting ready from— like, I knew that I wouldn't be able to be out on my, um, balcony because of like lightning and stuff. Yeah. But I was getting— I was bracing myself for a really good storm.

Josh: The cafe you don't recommend, Jerry's Milk Bar. Oh yeah, in St Kilda. It flooded in St Kilda, Elwood area, years ago when I lived there. And I did get Jerry. I went out, I went out with my camera and I ended up having to help him. I was in the cafe, the water was up to my knees and we were like moving shit. It was full on, but it's, it's so annoying for people. But I think, yeah, anyway, lucky. I mean, it's not so lucky for Tiff.

Tommy: Oh yeah, uh, Gronk Tiff. She's been, uh, posting on Instagram about a, uh, Tinder profile and other profiles created with her name and photo.

Josh: Yeah, so if you know what her face looks like, okay, I did. I— if you just showed me the photo, I would have known that it was Tiff. It's not Tiff. Tiff didn't set up the Tinder profile. Tiff has never had Tinder, and someone has informed her that she, uh, has a Tinder profile that someone's using. And she's written through and she said, uh, that someone has— someone actually got catfished. They were catfished, came forward saying they'd been catfished by this account.

Tommy: I mean, do you owe anything to the person that's been catfished? So, look, I'll go on a date with you.

Josh: Look, if you—

Tommy: you were so nice to me. Show me the history. What—

Josh: how do they know that they So they must have obviously known who Tiff was.

Tommy: They've gone to her Instagram, maybe found her.

Josh: Oh, because you can click through. Yeah, I mean, I'm not on it. Can you click through? Seth, have you got Tinder? No. Can you just get on your phone so we can look and just—

Mason: On Tinder?

Josh: Yeah, and understand it. Like, when it first started, it didn't link. It didn't— you couldn't click off, I don't think, to take you to the Instagram.

Tommy: I was thinking maybe, but you could do like a reverse Google search.

Josh: I think you can actually click through and it'll take you to their profile.

Tommy: That's handy.

Josh: So you get a smorgasbord of photos.

Tommy: Well, you get a sense of the individual. You can see like mutual friends. Yeah, I was—

Josh: which is how they might have done that with Tiff Singh, you know, seen, like understood, and then found it if they didn't know her already.

Tommy: Do you know what app that I've just gotten? Bumble. Bumble networking. No. What do you got? Co-Star.

Josh: What's Co-Star?

Tommy: You know about Co-Star?

Josh: Let me guess. This is a karaoke, some kind of like singing duets out.

Tommy: Couldn't be further off.

Josh: What is it? CoStar?

Tommy: When you see it, you'll know exactly what it is. Ready?

Josh: Yeah. Okay, show me. Co— Oh, Tully, Gemma, all the peeps.

Tommy: So, this is like a— So, this is— It asks where you were born, what time, and then it's like our accountant. Yeah, exactly. He was getting all the details.

Josh: Just had a meeting with our new account and he was asking some questions, having to understand our background.

Tommy: It was very good though, wasn't it?

Josh: I loved it.

Tommy: Um, and anyway, so I, uh, I've got— it says here, uh, your— this is my chart today.

Josh: But hang on, so the app itself, you sign up, you enter all these details in, and it pushes you something per day?

Tommy: Yeah, but then I— you add friends and it tells you how you're going to interact with the friends. And so our friend Lucy from Homebody Club has it and she sent a screengrab to Bree where it's like, Lucy, you and Josh will help each other in this way. Feeding each other by hand will be like— it's very strange. I was like, was I meant to add? Like, what I wasn't sure on is it's like, are you meant to just add everyone or is it just something you meant to have with your partner? Because it's a little bit awkward if all of a sudden, say, if you're on it and you've got all your friends on it. Yeah. And then it says, ah, Tommy, uh, currently you are sexually compatible with Tiff. It's slightly uncomfortable, especially if it's not like my wife. But I also thought, then it's also— you're being true, it's knowing all the catfishing, it's not Tiff either. But, um, no, so I thought like that was sort of strange.

Josh: Okay. And so you've—

Tommy: and so So what it says for me today, uh, today: non-conformity is also a performance. Power in work, spirit, spirituality, social life, and self. Trouble with thinking and creativity and sex and love. Today's moon transit is encouraging you to take advantage of creative flow. You're feeling particularly good today. Luck is on your side.

Mason: I thought it said you're not going to be creative today.

Tommy: That's why it's a bit—

Josh: I thought that said that. And sex. I thought he's pretty useless today, actually.

Tommy: You want to go home?

Josh: But then it came back and said something about creative, your own creative flow.

Tommy: I don't understand it. This is what Lucy— it says for Lucy. Here we go. Today, uh, Josh Janson, you give people the gift of your devotion and attention, and Lucy Green wants to erase the physical boundaries and become totally enmeshed. You have similar desires. Yeah, you have similar desires for a real connection right now. Being straightforward, uh, is another way to play. Send them a sentimental love letter. Include a lock of your hair.

Josh: I reckon what you've done is— I reckon you've put Lucy in as your partner, like your girlfriend. Maybe there's a setting where you actually put your loved one where I don't think there is. That's sending you some more intimate shit.

Tommy: Let's see if Gem accepted me.

Josh: This app.

Tommy: She hasn't. But let's see what it says for Bri.

Josh: This app is worth some Madison Avenue.

Tommy: Yeah, this is what I mean.

Josh: Breaking up marriages.

Tommy: So I can understand why she sent— Lucy sent it to Bri and not to me. Like, haha, look at that. Like, just try, like, almost uncomfortable. Like, hey, just so you know, the app's trying to set us up. This is what Bri and I— it says it for Bri and I today. Josh Janson, you repress your nervous energy until it becomes a rush of white noise in your body. Brianna, on the other hand, has fluctuating desires that can make them feel moody. Neither of you are willing to address the actual problem. You're adaptable. You can shift your form. Be careful so that you don't become shapeless. For the love of God, try not to destroy each other.

Josh: Is this pulling on astrology or numerology? What is this, Mr. 97s? Do you know?

Mason: Yeah, okay, I mean, it says powered by AI that merges NASA data with the insight of human astrologers.

Josh: It's just astrology, no fucking—

Tommy: they said NASA.

Josh: Yeah, and all those gronks that wear NASA t-shirts, they don't work at NASA just because they got a t-shirt to get t-shirt off that from Cotton On. But no, so it's astrology. Have we got, um, Krystal's book here handy? It was around— can you, can you grab it for me?

Tommy: Uh, they're your keys.

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, she has a whole section about astrology, and basically it's a conversation around how much bullshit it is. Let's say, can you just find a poignant piece, uh, or question that has been asked that she answers the for and against for? It might just sort of—

Tommy: so what do I like? I almost feel like I need to remove this app.

Josh: I saw Gemma's yesterday, which was like saying something about to stay away from depressants.

Tommy: And so she was going on tequila, which the—

Josh: it doesn't make sense because— sorry, Gemma, but alcohol itself is a depressant.

Tommy: I think tequila maybe has different qualities, but alcohol is alcohol.

Josh: Like alcohol itself. The—

Tommy: Seven, can you look up that as a priority?

Josh: It's like saying have a different protein. Like it's a protein itself. Like alcohol is a—

Tommy: So tequila though, like, so alcohol is a depressant.

Josh: Itself, the drug itself, which is within tequila and all those alcohols.

Tommy: But what I wonder is, what is— there must be— have you heard that before, that tequila does something different?

Josh: So let's look at that up.

Mason: So tequila is a stimulant, not a depressant.

Josh: But hang on, how does that work when the drug itself is alcohol? Like, it's the actual substance, the chemical substance.

Tommy: That's what I'd like to know.

Josh: Alcohol, which is the only reason I push back on that. Tequila thing, because it could be a good piece of marketing around tequila brands. It's like, oh, if you're depressed, don't worry, we got you, add Red Bull. Yeah, you know, but I'm, I'm here to be stand— I'm here to stand incorrected if I am incorrected. Incorrect, uh, incorrect. Sorry.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, how do you feel about getting co-stars so we can all see how we're aligned?

Josh: Fucking bullshit. What do you mean? Then it dictates how you treat people? Yeah, but if it's in a positive way, I'd rather just ask you how you're feeling and you tell me honestly.

Tommy: Well, I don't know.

Josh: Okay, then relate it to—

Tommy: but I didn't know I had trouble with thinking and creativity.

Josh: But related to— so how do you— it says you feel quite good today, didn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, well, I do.

Josh: How do you do feel quite good? Okay, anything on the tequila? Like why it's— why it's not a depressant even though it's still alcohol and alcohol itself is a depressant.

Mason: No, I'm trying to find the thing that makes it not a depressant. Yeah, so there's—

Josh: I've, I've—

Mason: I'm on a page right now that says it acts as a stimulant, uh, but it's also a depressant because it has ethanol in it, which is a depressant, which is the alcohol part.

Josh: Ethanol is alcohol. Yeah, so I'm just trying to find, um, yeah, more info how it was made or something. I mean, they're pretty happy in Mexico, actually.

Tommy: What do you think?

Josh: They seem pretty light on.

Tommy: I was listening to a podcast by Kevin Rose. He has, um, Rhonda Patrick on.

Josh: Oh yeah, Dr. Rhonda Patrick.

Tommy: And she's, um—

Josh: Mason loves her.

Mason: Yeah, she's good.

Tommy: She's talking about, um, omega-3s, fish oil. Yeah, it's very complicated, isn't it? Have you listened to it?

Mason: No, I haven't listened to it yet. But what, what was complicated about it?

Tommy: Different ones doing different things. I mean, some of them, the two main ones are EPA and DHA. Yeah, and it's just fish. EPA is the one that— there's one that like you get more in the, um, the fish eggs. Do you ever eat fish eggs?

Mason: No, too expensive.

Josh: I mean, that's why most people, uh, use the The supplements, supplements of it.

Tommy: So apparently krill oil, there's like, um, bioavailability in these things, and the, the normal one goes through a process, but there's a final process they can do which makes them more bioavailable, which most of them don't have. I don't know, I've just been thinking I want to try to become less inflamed. Yeah, you know what I worked out that I could— so I can do this, right? So if you can't see the visuals, I'm like grabbing my, uh, how would you describe that?

Josh: You're just touching finger to finger. You got one hand up.

Tommy: What do you call that?

Mason: It's like this, it's stretch that you did at school. It's like stretching out your back and your arms, so I can do that, interlocked behind your back.

Tommy: So I can do that, right?

Josh: With one hand up above your head, one hand down below.

Tommy: You can do that?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: But then look at this. Can't do it the other way.

Josh: Yeah, so you've got tightness and something going on. I can't do it either way.

Mason: I can just touch my fingertips, but I can't actually latch my hands.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the other way I can just—

Tommy: So what's going on?

Josh: Um, so I'm right-handed, so when my right hand was down low, um, you couldn't do it when your right hand was down low, right? Yeah, so when my right hand was down low, yeah, which I think is— yeah, and so we're right-handed, all of us. So why is tight— rotator cuff. I don't know, something up through the—

Tommy: you're saying back of your shoulder, shoulder blade, scapulas. So I'm thinking I would like to, uh, 2020 scapula health.

Josh: I think that, yeah, I mean, that's, that could be a good driver.

Mason: Specific.

Josh: That's like saying my goal is to be able to touch my toes. So then that's a good goal. Yeah, yeah, that's probably a better one than scapula strength.

Tommy: Yeah, well, because it's gonna— well, so weights and so scapula is all about pulling. I need to pull more.

Josh: You need to pull more? You're pulling enough, mate.

Tommy: Just because if you, um, pulling is the—

Josh: is the scapular protraction.

Tommy: And so yeah, I've had a bunch of pain in the scapula region, so I want to do some— yeah, I was thinking of speaking to Durham.

Josh: Durham's awesome because he— this is our friend who has a specialised basketball— Core Advantage is the business.

Tommy: Is the podcast titled Core Advantage?

Josh: But they work with athletes and, and are very mindful of their approach, and it's all about preventing injury and is not crazy, you know, trying to be some hero lifting weights at the gym. But they do strength and conditioning and mobility.

Mason: It's all the technique stuff.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mason: Instagram's great.

Josh: He said, um, Durham said to me he would come in and give you a sort of a, you know, testing and seeing where you need work and get you going. So that would be good to get Durham in. Well, he'd do one for the three of us downstairs in the garage, get us sort of, you know, some kind of like testing to see what we need to improve. My back's a bit fucked downstairs, really tight, lower tight glutes, and it's all— yeah, hip flexor.

Tommy: And I was even thinking about how we sit doing the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can't do this forever.

Josh: My back is Definitely. Like, my— when I say back, my lower, my lower back has definitely got tighter since doing this show from the other studio to this one. Just a couple of big babies. We're just— oh my God, did you see, um, uh, Jihadi, Jabba the Jihadi, an ISIS leader who was 250 kilos, was captured?

Mason: Yes, I did see that. And they had to, they had to put him in the back of a truck because they couldn't—

Josh: he was so fat.

Mason: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: And he's the ISIS leader. The thing is, he, um, being overweight as a—

Tommy: you wouldn't be his business partner.

Josh: No, no, definitely not. It's, um, it's like frowned upon to be overweight within that religion. I think part of that religion, or being in the jihadi— jihadi— fucking sucked in, fat boy. You got caught. It's the only time I'll say that about somebody when they're an ISIS leader.

Mason: 250 kg, dude.

Tommy: Look, so what was it?

Josh: It literally looks like Jabba the Hutt.

Tommy: And so who have they— how have you read that? Where have you read this?

Josh: I saw it first and I thought it was a joke on a UFC, ex-UFC fighter's Instagram. And then I searched it.

Tommy: Where all the good news comes.

Josh: And it was true. They caught somebody in Afghanistan, Baghdad, or no, no, somewhere over in the Middle East. And they did a mission and they— I mean, he wasn't going anywhere. He literally couldn't get up. And so that— and then you see a photo someone's taken, obviously on their cell phone. Looking down from the window and they've chucked him onto the back of a pickup truck like a ute.

Tommy: Really? Yes. I mean, I want to say annoying to have to deal with that guy. Any more info on him?

Mason: Yeah. So a SWAT team rounded him up in Mosul, which is Iraq. Yeah.

Tommy: And McDonald's there and drive-through, set up a sting operation. Has a second window. He pays for it. No, no, no.

Josh: How's he got that fat? I mean, he was in hiding, right?

Tommy: Well, they, um, the way they actually did it was they didn't give him his sweet and sour sauce, so he came back. Sweet and sour sauce. It's funny because Bri and I had grilled fish last night to be a bit healthier.

Josh: Omega-3s.

Tommy: Yeah, it was fish. Um, ah, fuck.

Mason: Was it like flathead or something?

Tommy: I don't know, it was white. But, um, you know, it was the Kiwi Fish and Chip Shop up the road. It's great. But, um, uh, is that classic thing if we get it delivered and, um, the tartare sauce— they forgot the tartare sauce. I'm trying to be more mindful. The initial reaction is like, I can't eat it, cancelling that. Yeah, I can't. Like, I'd like— guys, I can't eat any of this.

Josh: I'm getting my money back from—

Tommy: yeah, you know what I ended up doing? I used, um, olive dip in the fridge. Great, it worked well.

Josh: Probably healthier.

Tommy: It could be, but no, I would like to eat more fish. It could be good to try some of those, what's it called? The fish balls.

Josh: Caviar.

Mason: Yeah. Quite expensive.

Josh: Very expensive.

Tommy: What about the salmon? What is it called? Salmon eggs. There's a word for it. Type in salmon eggs for me, please.

Josh: I think, isn't that it?

Tommy: Salmon roe.

Josh: Yeah, salmon roe. I haven't heard that one.

Tommy: Yeah, and so you could mix it up with like a cream cheese, like, uh, the way Rhonda gets her, uh, kid to eat it, and she puts like a garlic herb cream cheese and puts, puts the roe on that.

Josh: If we're talking food, meal prepped like 13, 14 meals yesterday.

Tommy: Really?

Mason: What'd you put in?

Josh: Uh, I did a couple of different ones. I did curry, I did a, um, Mexican dish. With rice and potato.

Tommy: Uh, like, um, in a big slow cooker, or how'd you know?

Josh: Just in the frying pan.

Tommy: It's like a curry frying pan cooked.

Josh: That's what you do in a pan, like a wok. No, no, you can do curries. Have you ever cooked a curry?

Tommy: Yeah, but I've never used like a frying pan.

Josh: It's a big enough fry pan, it's not a small one.

Tommy: What shape? Circle?

Josh: Circle frying pan? Instead of like— yeah, it's kind of—

Tommy: is it deep?

Josh: Anyway, I'll let you taste some of the curry, then you can let me know.

Tommy: What sort of base? Is it like a coconut?

Josh: Green curry.

Tommy: Green curry.

Josh: Uh, anyway, did you buy your own, um, it's enough.

Tommy: Was it a paste that you bought or did you make the paste up?

Josh: Yeah, not making the paste. There's like 20 ingredients in that fucker. Uh, Sevs, have we got anyone writing through before we finish up?

Mason: Uh, yeah, um, Tiff, about the conversation about that CoStar app, she says, what is this? Um, and she just came back into the conversation.

Josh: So did you find anything in that book? Crystal. Yeah, so there's Crystal Andrews, great book, How to Win Every Argument. So, uh, the thing that I guess the person who's against you in the conversation, um, which is someone trying to say that astrology is the bee's knees and it's real, and you believe it's absolute bullshit.

Mason: You should have read my horoscope last month, it was accurate, it was so me. How do you explain that?

Josh: Which could, you know, in this app you read it and you go, that's me today, I'm feeling good. Yes, that's why Tick, I'm sexually— yeah, tick.

Tommy: Uh, you know, I just want to know who I'm meant to add on this.

Josh: Well, let's just— I mean, I think this might get you to delete it.

Mason: The Barnum effect.

Josh: The Barnum—

Mason: the theories— the theory is that most people very easily agree with the descriptions about themselves that are broad, general, and framed positively without realising the same could apply to almost anyone.

Josh: Yeah, so I mean, that's why— who's Zodiac signs and P.T.

Mason: Barnum?

Tommy: Yeah, P.T.

Mason: Barnum, The Greatest Showman. Did you watch that movie?

Tommy: No.

Josh: Um, Hugh Jackman played him.

Mason: Yeah, Hugh Jackman.

Josh: And so, yeah, so we're listening to him positively framing something. So that magicians are into manipulation, right?

Mason: So he's a showman, politician, and businessman.

Josh: Yeah, so, so he— I mean, we need to employ a bit more, um, magician-like techniques in our business approach because it's— you— what they're saying is if it's positive and serves you and you want it to, like, that's where you connect with it. I mean, I don't know where it's like the depressant thing— stay away from depressants. Probably a good piece of advice for most people.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Don't, don't take something that will make you feel like absolute shit. It's probably a good piece of advice. So, so that's where you kind of like—

Mason: yeah, it's like the advice that it provided to you and Bri. You got to confront whatever you're not willing to confront.

Josh: Well, a good piece of advice.

Mason: Forever.

Tommy: It's very true.

Josh: In every— any day, lean in, lean into the hardest shit. Hard shit. Have the hard conversation. Yeah, it's great. But I mean, the app is— Tully, what was she on about yesterday? She posted her one too. Mason, you would have— you talk to her every night. What did she say?

Mason: Do you have to say no?

Tommy: I don't know.

Mason: Hang on. No, I don't have the app. I wonder if they don't ever apologise for being alive. Power in sex and love and self. Trouble with work. Thinking and creativity. And social life.

Josh: I mean, there you go, the most broad, broad fucking shit I've ever heard.

Mason: You had that, you had sex, love, and self as well.

Tommy: It even said to me, the other weird thing is that like it specifically wants to know where you were born.

Josh: Yeah, because it's just trying to get your big data.

Tommy: But yeah, it felt like that. Like I put in the exact suburb, the exact time, and they've sold it. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

Josh: I don't know, it's a complete scam.

Tommy: But, uh, Dr. Jason Fox is on it, but he hasn't accepted me yet.

Josh: He leans into a bit of woo-woo. He leans into it. He's a smart guy.

Tommy: I want to know my sexual compatibility with Jason Fox right now, but it's not— it's, um, yeah, I mean, light touch with Dr. Jason Fox.

Josh: Also, I want to understand that.

Tommy: Let's—

Josh: Gemma, if you can— and I'm sure you've done the research now, uh, the depressant thing. Tequila. I want to understand this. You need a full, full statement.

Tommy: It feels like I'm one step away though from, um, letting it dictate your life. No, no, I was going to say like, um, being with Lucy.

Mason: It told me to.

Tommy: I was going to say like, um, getting a, um, crystal.

Josh: Yeah, get a crystal.

Tommy: I, I—

Josh: this is the thing, I don't, I don't have this app. Read your zodiac sign, look at numerology.

Tommy: Well, you're getting into spirituality more.

Josh: You cannot compare spirituality in the sense of mindfulness and meditation with fucking goo goo gaga bullshit.

Tommy: You think there's a big difference?

Josh: There's a massive difference.

Tommy: What do you think it is?

Josh: One's more rooted in science than the other is. Meditation, mindfulness is more like scientifically—

Tommy: What's science based on? NASA data? I said spirituality.

Josh: Yeah, but I— So you— But you're lumping spirituality—

Tommy: I didn't say mindfulness, I said spirituality. But what's the— what's this? What's— how is spirituality rooted in science?

Josh: So you're— no, my— just backtracking a bit, you're lumping, um, this stuff into spirituality when there's a— when there's a real— so look up the definition of spirituality, because I like— if I was looking at it and say— if I was to say I'm a spiritual person, it doesn't mean that I'm into zodiac signs.

Tommy: No, it doesn't.

Josh: It means I'm into understanding at a higher level something beyond myself and the world we're living in.

Tommy: Well, I don't know what the answer is.

Mason: So spirituality is the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

Josh: Yeah, but I think the problem with this kind of stuff is it can easily get lumped in with it, and I don't think it gives spirituality a good branding. It doesn't give it a good name.

Tommy: Look at branding. Spirituality is a branding exercise.

Josh: But no, I think it's pretty unspiritual to do that.

Tommy: Yeah. No, but it's interesting. I think that like, it's, um, yeah, can you— if you're detached from all these things, I wonder if you then get to a point of— if spirituality is a very personal thing and some people are using spirituality as a way of being.

Josh: I think that probably there's some basics of spirit. Look at Basics of Spirituality, and I think it—

Tommy: can you rationalise spirituality?

Josh: It's something beyond our complete understanding. But I mean, see where like you're throwing up these things that then make room for this bullshit in the— yeah, but I don't think there is room for this bullshit because how is it generalising and making assertions based on some little details you put in that are spitting out from an AI computer your future? You know, like, then you got to go, tarot card readers are the fucking bomb, they're the truth. It's like, come on, dude.

Tommy: But is spirit— but I don't know if we're saying spirituality is is truth.

Josh: I'm not saying truth, but I'm just saying it's the BS that they're spinning. Tarot card readers, the zodiac signs— like, I don't think, I don't think they can be lumped together. I think one can be like— so I don't know what you'd say.

Tommy: What's the difference? So what's the— where do you draw the line around spirituality then?

Josh: The line around spirituality Are you saying to, to exclude all that and what, what it is?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't know what—

Josh: yeah, like, yeah, because you could go the exploration of you beyond yourself is all a part of spirituality, and then you could go, oh well, that is doing that, but rooted in science.

Tommy: I think that's where it probably—

Josh: I think rooted in science that you're, you're looking at something like consciousness, you're looking something at something at the level of thought and how what it all means for your your time here, which is all—

Tommy: is that consciousness? And is consciousness and spirituality the same thing? No, the—

Josh: no, consciousness is what we are in right now, which is the, the— yeah, so this is beyond what we're fucking— our skill set of talking.

Tommy: Well, that's what I was saying, but so much pushback to that's not spirituality or whatever. No, I'm saying I don't lump it into spirituality, but then also saying like, is that rooted in science?

Josh: As an argument, science is— science would actually, would squash that, any of that. What I'm saying is elements of science about consciousness, your mind, how is, is more connected to the exploration of self and understanding it so it can inform that exploration.

Tommy: I'm saying no, I don't like— so I have no idea. I'm like, I don't know Like whether this app—

Josh: yeah, I'm not saying science is spirituality. I'm saying there's more information about spirituality through science to learn about than this shit, which I don't think can be lumped in with meditation.

Tommy: And, and well, no, I'm not like the— I never mentioned this in meditation.

Josh: No, but I'm saying when you say spirituality and then you go, that's a part of it, and someone says I'm spiritual because I read my star signs and look at numerology and understand my zodiacs and all of that shit. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

Tommy: Yeah, because I think you're— yeah, I think you're connecting two separate things. So like, yeah, the meditation and like the, the actual, uh, brain— like the, the chemist— the body chemistry, the brain chemistry, all that sort of stuff, I've got no idea. But there is like spirituality I think is a little bit more of a broader term which could encompass, yeah, people's individual experience. And so if you're— I think that you can't— the, the only bit that I wasn't sure on is I don't think that you can say you can speak about spirituality and then all of a sudden use the debate around rooted in science.

Josh: No, no, that's what I said. It's— they're not— it's not all rooted in spirituality, is not rooted in science. But there are elements of science that can inform spiritual practises that give them a bit more validity than something like zodiac signs.

Tommy: And so then if there's like placebo— so say if you use the example of, um, uh, um, you know, this app, and say if it did have a skew towards positivity if someone was using that as part of their spiritual journey or their, you know, personal journey and it had a positive effect but it was only placebo, is it okay? Is it something that's worth doing?

Josh: Makes sense.

Tommy: And so I think that—

Josh: but I don't think that's general, that like that's giving it the best potential outlook.

Tommy: What's the other outlook?

Josh: It— but then you're saying that it's like everything it's spitting out is positive. And so when there's like, read my star sign today, it might not be all positive. And so then if you're living a life based on these, this information, at what point, like, are you pressing the button that says, I want everything positive, nothing negative, and then that lets me live my life? But that's not the reality of these things. They're so generalized. And it's an individual at home writing, the guy that writes the Herald Sun, you know, Star Science. Yeah, I mean, that's just, it's just his job. But there's people that have alternative stances to me.

Mason: Yeah, well, I mean, so I just looked up spirituality and the, the questions that come under it, uh, where do I find my meaning, how do I feel connected, and how should I live?

Josh: So I mean, which aren't answered by science, and it's not what I was trying to say.

Mason: Yeah, and, and so I mean, I guess if, if the app works for you and you use it and it's— it has an impact on it, then on you, then I guess it could help you find meaning. I wonder if you live—

Josh: so I wonder if also, like, I think it's a different conversation to is it actually real and how does it— what is the validity of it? That's not the same.

Tommy: That's not the question. But like, so you could say, like, within faith, a conversation on did all these things actually— like, did everything in the Bible, did that all happen— is a different conversation around spirituality and using it as a—

Josh: I think it's probably closer to a, I drink celery juice every morning and regardless of the science, it makes me feel better. Because then it's like, okay, well, what is the truth behind celery juice? Nothing. There's no science. It's bullshit. It's all fucking bullshit. And so then that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't think it's— it's more closely to, I do it and it works for me, then is that all good? It's like Well, yeah, but you can still drink your celery juice, but it's actually not doing the thing you think it is. So whether it's placebo or not—

Tommy: yeah, I wonder if you can rationalise how you rationalise spirituality if it's such a personal thing. Um, yeah, I think that it can— yeah, maybe that's like the, the, the, the next step to all of that sort of stuff is not understanding or not knowing.

Josh: And so, yeah, I know that's— it's such a— it's a statement that then doesn't allow for you to ever look at something like zodiac signs and go, absolute bullshit. Like, it's—

Tommy: or you say, what point?

Josh: Because then you go, spirituality is like— but then you can choose to— the exploration of self and who— what meaning and purpose. And I think there are two things that have been created that aren't helpful. And so, but then you can always say, yeah, but if it was helpful to someone, does that mean that it's not helpful at all? Well, because then you just go around in circles. At what point do you go, uh, zodiac signs are absolute bullshit? And it's, and it's exactly what that was just said. It's this guy, you know, it's the— we choose what's positive to serve, we choose what serves us from reading.

Tommy: And so my point is that if it's a mechanism that individuals use. So doing prayer, like praying to a being that is bigger than us, you could say, oh well, that's like, like scientifically impossible, or whatever it is. Does that mean that that practise isn't beneficial to the individual?

Josh: But then the science would— like, if you were to— I know, I don't know, you're saying science for a god or whatever, but then you go Science behind positive thinking. And so then serve it. Yeah, but I mean, and that's what I'm— if you're relying your life on something like that app or something like the star signs in the Herald Sun, this— you're on a slippery slope.

Tommy: I don't know if you are. I reckon, like, I think there is something— there is— I'm always concerned in when people are so dogmatic in whichever approach they take. So I like, I take it with a grain of salt. It's a fun app to go in. For some people, they find a bunch of meaning and it helps them.

Josh: But I think you're the, you're the anomaly in that because I don't see other option that people are completely dictated by it. Like there are people that are taken and they think it's truth and it's like exactly how they live that should live their life. So then you're saying the best, I think the best version of using these is your approach.

Tommy: Yeah. And because I think that the other thing is the rooted in science thing. The hard bit is like, you're not a scientist, you don't know, like science is constantly evolving. And so you don't know, like what is rooted in science today might be different tomorrow depending on what information.

Josh: Really gone hard on the rooted in science bit. Let me just clarify the rooted in science part. There is more scientific—

Tommy: I don't know whether what you're saying— information— what, well, like, whatever you say now, I can't debate because I don't actually know.

Josh: I'm just trying to say what I was trying to get across was the practises of other spiritual— so other spiritual practises like meditation, like mindfulness, it could be positive, positive self-talk. These things are all more proven by science than something like zodiac signs.

Tommy: And I think that's all those—

Josh: so when I say root in science, spirituality, it's not, because there's things like under— like there's all this meaning and purpose. You could have a scientific explanation for why we're here and what we're meant to be doing. It doesn't necessarily have a real stick to people and their journey and what it actually means and all the things they face. So there's something outside of that that they need to explore. But If we're keeping it to something like this app and its validity and its fucking— it's just like, seriously.

Tommy: But yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Like, I think that you have a willingness to argue things that you know that there's information out there. You don't know the exact information, but you're like, I know that like some people have said this, so like I'm going to be pretty like stern on like—

Josh: yeah, but then what's the opposite? You're just always on the fence. Oh, I never know, I never know.

Tommy: It's like, I think there's a willingness to What's the advantage of being, being your side, like taking your approach to it?

Josh: I'll probably get closer to working it out having the real information. If you don't think I have any information, because why? Because, because you'll go away and have— someone will call me out or someone will say something, I'll be informed, I'll have a conversation versus always just saying, look, I don't have enough information.

Tommy: But so say, say for instance, with a grain of salt, but what about like the other approach which is, I feel like how you feel in a lot of ways in regards to this, but then entering into it and exploring it and allowing that truth or reality for a moment to see what it actually does from a psychological point of view. How do I— how does it change?

Josh: Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I've always— I've read— I've read— I've read star signs over the years and done the exact thing of like, at what point what bit of this relates to me, I'll throw the other shit out. So like I see how I've— You've done that work. I've put it on myself to be interested in reading star signs and numerology and getting a bit excited around them and connecting the dots to my life. But then I see how it's so easy to just connect the positivity and the things that relate to me. And even some of the stuff like in numerology, you know, you work out your number based on the calculation of your birth year, add it together and it gives you your number. So I'm like a 9-something, you know, you get your number right, then you have a book that you go and find that number order and you read it. It's like, here's your negative things, uh, you know, and then I read those and try and connect them to— like, I see the psychology of using the general nature of it to then connect it to my experience on earth. And so that's where I find the issue with that. So my personal experience is where the only reason I'm talking like this, as far as understanding how it's trying to connect these dots and use that thing. And so, and then I'm going, it can't be. And so, but you're— and so I'm just saying I'm willing to have the conversation if someone thinks that they have— like, I mean, read more of that astrology book.

Mason: I mean, but, but why does the validity of the app matter?

Josh: No, it's about— what do you mean of the app?

Mason: Well, so you were talking about if the app's valid or not and, and the horoscopes and all that sort of stuff. If it's valid and if it's—

Josh: if you've got Josh's approach of like, yeah, I just take it.

Mason: I even think people who are fully invested in it, yeah, there's nothing— what, there's no downside to that because it's prompting like, it's giving more questions. And I guess it's sort of like poking at a little bit of emotional intelligence because it's, it's getting them to question things that's happening in their life, whether it's like there's something that you haven't—

Josh: I see what you mean.

Tommy: It's creative prompts, isn't it? Like, could, could it just be—

Josh: and I'm not— I actually don't think there's it's negative as such when you are asking yourself these questions that it is prompting you to.

Tommy: So why do you take such a strong—

Josh: I think they become all gimmicks. They become such gimmicks. And, and for people that probably, you know, that do read into it and make shifts in their life based on these apps.

Tommy: What's the other— how else do you make choices or decisions in life?

Josh: I mean, there's plenty of ways. I think you're— are you asking, is the way to do it through an app. I think there's a bunch of better ways.

Tommy: Well, I think like the format is just an app. They've just created this thing. This happened— this has been around before an app. But I guess the question becomes, what is your— how do you make decisions in life? And you could argue that all of these things are just that, like we spoke about previously.

Josh: So now you're So that we— if we're clear on the conversation, is there truth within these apps? Uh, is zodiac signs, um, proven?

Mason: It—

Josh: like all these things, right?

Tommy: So that's where you came from.

Josh: Yeah. And so that's where— and now you're going— now you're sort of spinning— it's a different conversation. So that's where I'm like, if you're getting prompted— it's not to spin it back to— for me to believe that it's all real, to say—

Tommy: that's not what I'm— yeah. And that's what I'm not even saying. I believe But based even on what Dr. Jason Fox was saying the other day, can you enter into it and use it as a mechanism to help from a psychological point of view? From a, from a—

Josh: Do you think the majority of people that turn to these things, the numbers they call to hear people, you know, call, call to find out more about your future, like, do you think the people that turn to these, the desperate people, the people that aren't in a safe secure mindset as you that understands and can rationalize, do you think the people that get done by them—

Tommy: but what's the benefits of getting done by—

Josh: if it's so spending money on calling the number in Herald Sun, well, mate, so, but I think like you're also like connecting those two, two things up, but you're, but you're also giving it the stance that most people are in your camp of entering into it with this kind of like open-mindedness, like taking it with a grain of salt. Because I think there's— what about if we were to look at the person that gets taken down that rabbit hole, spending money, living their life entirely? So what about it?

Tommy: It offers up negative effects. Like being a Catholic, you're like using your mum as an example. Has Catholicism served her in her life?

Josh: But we're not talking about religion. This is not religion.

Tommy: But like, but spirituality, faith, all these types of things.

Josh: I think it was moving to religion now, because I don't think zodiac astrology is religion. And I'm not saying religion's like some real thing, but I'm just saying— but what's not the same conversation?

Tommy: Yeah, it is, because it's like spirituality and faith. Say if we're all going in a world of like, you know, hyper-rationalism, and we're all like, we're rationalising everything and putting everything against science and doing all of that I think potentially not having any room to move in regards to this other world.

Josh: I haven't said I've got no room to move.

Tommy: Well, so, but I think of that completely discrediting this because I'm like, this is—

Josh: you can't discredit anything, then we can't— this is not a conversation. Like, you see where it butts heads of going, well, you can't discredit anything because you don't know. And then the other is like, what about discrediting things But you're saying like, if it's only like what you said before was it's not rooted inside. No, but I said to you, like, I've explained what I was meaning by that.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't completely understand what you're arguing.

Josh: I'm not arguing. You're pushing, you're pushing over here on you can't argue anything. And I'm just saying I can argue that. And I'm not— and all my initial bit around the science thing, and I don't think I worded it properly, was lumping lumping this in with the spiritual things that are more proven or have stood the test of time and haven't been a manipulation tool.

Tommy: Yeah, well, I think he can't like— I think if you look at, like, say if you look at faith, uh, spirituality, and religion, uh, you could say that there's a bunch of good stuff around spirituality and faith which would be— can— but the, uh, the organised religion bit can sometimes be, uh, a negative part of that whole experience. And so what you're doing is, similarly to the debate around religion, you're taking the organised app and you're saying, I don't like that. But at the same time, through the way that you're speaking, you're discrediting the potential benefits of the spirituality or the spiritual experience or the faith that people get through using these different mechanisms. And so I'm— so all I'm saying is no, uh, like, I don't know, I don't understand the truth. I don't— like, I don't understand these things. I don't understand that. But even like, we watch, we watch fiction, we watch Netflix for entertainment. We even use these things to potentially understand our own personal narratives. We might watch this thing and go, that really connects with me on this. And so could potentially we be using these as tools with a little bit like—

Josh: yeah, I think the way you're going to serve it up makes it sensical. But then there's also, can you lump this in? Is this your spiritual journey? I mean, is it a start of a spiritual journey? Then okay, yeah, sure.

Tommy: But you're trying to define— you're trying to define what a spiritual, spiritual journey should be potentially for you.

Josh: Then how about we just remove it from the spirit? That's what I'm saying. I, I think there is— I think it is problematic.

Tommy: Yeah, and that's a bit that's not clear, and that seems like it comes—

Josh: I'm sure if you type in the benefits of, uh, zodiac signs and your spiritual journey, you'll find great stuff. And I'm sure if you type in the negative and horrible thing, you know, like I'm sure you'll find both ways of understanding.

Tommy: And so I wonder, like, I, I haven't gone super hard on like, this is the way that you need to, to live.

Josh: I haven't said that either.

Tommy: But I think that the way that you're speaking has implied that these things do not serve and are negative, and I don't think that that's necessary. Like, I do—

Josh: that's not what I haven't said there. I just don't— I don't think they're I don't think they're needed.

Tommy: And so that, that's, that's what I'm saying is like, you could— we could all say that like religion, faith, like if we didn't have all these things, look at all the wars that have been started through religion and all that sort of thing.

Josh: You're going to meditate or read the zodiac signs to control your life? Which one's better? I mean, at that point when you're defining these things, there is much more evidence of supporting meditation. Like, and then so that's where it's like, if you're looking at it as simplified as that If you pick one of the two, which one's better? Meditation. It's like, I don't think you can argue with that. Yeah, because you're going, there's positive— because I don't think I've—

Tommy: I don't think I've— I've talked about spirituality. I didn't talk about meditation.

Josh: You lumped that in with spirituality, and meditation is a form of spirituality. And so then exploring the spirit—

Tommy: and so if like spirituality is like a real personal experience, then you've got to ask is it productive to try and, uh, go, uh, tool by tool and say, oh, is this better than this? Because for some people, one thing could be better than another thing.

Josh: I know, but also you don't like— you don't like—

Tommy: I don't like having an opinion. Like, so, you know what, you get up—

Josh: what if someone came to me and said, hey man, if I was to pick one and go with what we like, and, and I, and I wanted you I want your advice, which one would you go with?

Tommy: That's definitely— that's not what the conversation we're having.

Josh: These are things that you're laying out, things where it ends up—

Tommy: you'd be like, okay, what are you— what are you seeking right now? Like, what are the— what's the—

Josh: but if you had to answer the one of the two and the only answer was pick one, what— which would you say?

Tommy: Well, I would say that that's not a spiritual question.

Josh: No, but I think if you were to just answer the question—

Tommy: well, yeah, I don't— like, I don't think it makes any sense. But if you—

Josh: I mean, but this is what you're doing to what I'm saying is serving up and a version of that of like, you can't argue it because you don't know, and don't enter into arguing because it's not your spiritual journey. Or what is your thoughts on that?

Tommy: I reckon like your willingness to discredit things or talk negatively about something when you don't actually know, and when we see—

Josh: but what's wrong with having an opinion?

Tommy: I think there's something dangerous in having an opinion or, uh, being very quick to discredit something when you don't fully understand, or it's— the argument isn't necessarily—

Josh: So then if the world was the opposite and everyone didn't ever discredit anything and they didn't have an opinion, what happens?

Tommy: Well, I think that you're— I think that people would be listening. What do you think people are thinking right now listening to this?

Josh: They might completely disagree with me, completely disagree that I think that there's that it's bullshit. And that's okay.

Tommy: And that's what I understand.

Josh: I understand that because if someone wants to have a conversation about it, they can with me.

Tommy: And so then I can't because, because if you're going off the framework that this is bullshit, then— but, but there's also like the other ways it can enter in it, which is, is this a mechanism or a tool for someone to create stability in their life? Uh, yes or no? And if it's yes, then it isn't. It isn't simple as that though.

Josh: I can't— because if you approach anything with that, you'll find something, even if it is fucking some bullshit, like some actual bullshit. So when it does come to something that— say, if we're taking away from this and looking at something scientific, and you approached it with that, and the scientific science was celery juice is bullshit, and you say, I've got benefits of it, so you ask those questions, you'll land on a keep drinking celery juice.

Tommy: And so negativity around drinking celery juice is zero, zero health benefits to drinking. And so if there's zero health benefits, it's a placebo.

Josh: I know, but this is— you see what happens?

Tommy: You end up, you end up doing whatever is right for you as an individual. Sure.

Josh: But the point being that you don't want that sold. So how the celery juice camp, you know, sold by this, do this, by the celery farmers. Maybe big celery farmers. That, that is manipulation. So there is a dark side to it if you— and so my point of saying the celery thing is that if you approach anything with that, with no opinion, asking those questions, does it serve you? And you, you can source the thing that serves that question. And so what's the benefit?

Tommy: What's the benefit in looking at it like how I've looked at it? From your end if you were to look at things like that?

Josh: Take it with a grain of salt. If you find something that's beneficial for you, run with it. Or like, I get it, right? I get it. And I am like that with most things. And so when you think I'd like— do I have a massive opinion on this? It might seem it. I don't really give a fuck.

Tommy: But, and so what's the— is there a self-awareness opportunity?

Josh: I think it is. You can have an opinion, you can have a stance, you can— like, this is why it ends up people disagreeing on things doesn't mean that you can't have conversation. Like you said, no, you can't because you already think it's bullshit. No, because I can be changed. My mind can be changed. I'm not rock solid on everything I think. As much as I might say I think this, we have to be able to have conversation to explore this stuff. And so I'm not saying I think it's bullshit, I'm closed off to any conversation. It's not what I'm saying. I think it's bullshit. For all the reasons I've talked about. Do I know enough information?

Tommy: Does that make you think about how you think? So say using the— No, but I always—

Josh: you've always— yeah, but I'm saying I explained the rooted in science.

Tommy: I didn't understand the—

Josh: my— the—

Tommy: maybe what you've got a lab coat on right now, guys.

Josh: The rooted in science thing, I don't think it's— it probably was the wrong phrase to use. The bit where I was saying about the spiritual practises that probably have more benefits from a proven scientific standpoint are along the lines of meditation, mindfulness, positive thinking, affirmation, like all these things.

Tommy: So is psychology and spirituality the same thing? I don't know.

Josh: I don't think so.

Tommy: And so the thing is that from a scientific— so science connects—

Josh: so I'm just staying on the root in science. So it's not saying that example, like, I'm not saying that Maybe you could find some elements of those apps to be proven scientifically based, you know, the connections. Spirituality is definitely not a science practice, and so I, I apologize.

Tommy: So what I wonder, what I wonder is if like, think about how many decisions in the world are based on like faith and religion and all that sort of stuff. And then I wonder, it's like, okay, if we're going to be open to these things where, where do these other things, modern mechanisms that also potentially are more on that woo-woo end, where do they fit in?

Josh: Yeah, I think they fit in. I don't— because we're not talking about healing the body with that. And so then you're looking at, are you looking at Reiki or acupuncture or healers? And so there's a, there's a different— there's— we're not— I can't— it's not just generalised to if I don't believe in that, I don't believe in anything. I don't think it's as simple as that. If you don't believe in zodiac signs, you don't believe in Reiki. Like, I don't think they're the same.

Tommy: But then if you start saying— if you start talking about the science thing, which I think doesn't work.

Josh: No, but I'm not saying that. I just told you I made a distinction of where I was, where I was connecting the science to it. And all I was saying is I think there would be more connection to real-world proof than something like this. That's all I was saying. I wasn't saying that this and like spirituality is science because I don't agree. I don't believe that.

Tommy: And so that's why I just don't know when you say those things and connect it all, it's quite hard to communicate how I feel because like, oh, like I haven't been looking at it.

Josh: I think it's hard to have a conversation when you say everything's open to everything. I don't know, so I can't. And so I'm open.

Tommy: Like you're saying you do know.

Josh: I'm saying I don't agree with that. I have as much information as you. And I have my personal experience, and I can also say that I think it's absolute bullshit.

Tommy: So bullshit. And yeah, so bullshit. You can always call that whether it's true. Also, the thing is, it's like, but what is the actual truth? What, what is the— what is this being used for? That's what I'm like.

Josh: If people use zodiac signs, astro—

Tommy: like, so if people are using it as a way of like—

Josh: yeah, but I think we're back to that. I think we're back to that because if you're using it as a way of coping Sure, but I think if you bring it back to anything, you're using celery juice.

Tommy: Where does it become an issue?

Josh: When it is like the manipulation that people were spending money on this kind of stuff, like, and treating it as gospel for their life.

Tommy: Do you go—

Josh: have you ever been dictated by it?

Tommy: Have you ever been— have you ever paid to go to see a movie that's fiction?

Josh: What's your point?

Tommy: So if you're, if you're gonna go—

Josh: but I don't see it as some kind of self-help, uh, giving me the answers for my problems. Like, and that's where I think you're talking— I don't think the, the people that aren't looking for the answers for their world, lives, life's problems, I don't think that's the pro— that's not the area that— I mean, I'll read it, I'll be entertained, I'll fucking like, oh, is that connect to me. Yeah, but it still doesn't mean anything even if it doesn't serve.

Tommy: But so you're saying that's the only time it's okay?

Josh: I'm saying there's a group of people that would be struggling, vulnerable, and are looking to this stuff and believing it.

Tommy: And what's wrong with that? And so if you— if— what about—

Josh: so what about the people that believe it and it doesn't serve them? And it's like, yeah, oh, break up with the partner.

Mason: Do they believe it if it doesn't serve them?

Josh: I think, but maybe they do.

Tommy: But wasn't that the whole psychology around Crystal saying, that's what you say, hey, you pull the positive stuff out?

Josh: I think that's part of it. That's what I think people that are probably more in the camp of, I'll do whatever work, you know, I'll treat it with a grain of salt. I think there's people that aren't treating it with a grain of salt, and you can't discredit that that's not happening. And so it is happening. So someone who—

Tommy: yeah, and so I don't— but I'm not necessarily against— yeah, I'm not against that. If it's serving them at a personal level, then it's fine.

Josh: Sure. Sure.

Tommy: We should get an expert because I've got no—

Josh: like, if you get an expert on who is an expert in zodiac signs— well, no, no, I think it's like you're going to understand that they're going to talk about—

Tommy: no, but that's not what I'm curious is. Maybe— I know, is there someone that's rooted in science that can talk about it? I don't know. But I think my point is— giving me the benefit of the doubt when I say my point is that you're so quick to, to discredit something without actually properly listening first. And what I'm saying is the reason why I'm doing that, even though I don't necessarily, uh, believe in it—

Josh: What fun is it? What fun is it?

Tommy: Well, I think it's like, I think that what you're saying is that based on how I approach things, I don't have an opinion. And my thing is I have an opinion, but I'm also, uh, looking at, like, I'm, I'm trying to understand what, where that truth actually fits in. Because if we've discussed like anything the last 2 years, it's that the opposite can also be true. And so what I'm trying to do is take the things that I normally believe— I've never been religious, I've never done anything like that. I chose to not be in religious education at school, you know, sat out of RE. But what I'm also saying is like, you know what, like in a time where there is huge amounts of devastation within the world. There's all this sort of stuff. Science is obviously important to be able to move society forward, but will science alone be the thing from a mental health point of view?

Josh: I mean, getting meta on it now, I, I think that you, you sort of looking and thinking it's a negative thing that I have an opinion on something that I might not completely understand. I think that it is a way to learn if you were open-minded to learning. And so I'm saying I have an opinion. Do I understand it completely? No. Am I up for learning about this more? Yes.

Tommy: And I think that gets missed potentially in the way that you—

Josh: Yeah, but I think—

Tommy: Deliver it.

Josh: I mean, what, what this is is a podcast where we get to talk about stuff, and I think it'd be a fucking boring podcast if we just both never had an opinion or never got into these conversations, I don't think we would learn as much. I think you sort of take it all in until you really test it and sort of have rock-solid thoughts on something, but then also understand that it can change.

Tommy: And so I guess that's the point is like you don't need to have like, do you need rock-solid thoughts on everything? Uh, and where is it?

Josh: I don't think you do, but I think sometimes you can. And I know you have beliefs on shit that you, you don't always air. And I understand. No, I don't. But I understand what—

Tommy: like, what?

Josh: Nothing negative. But I know that— I, I know you said you're thinking in your head, but you're more open to just exploring it until you have enough information.

Tommy: No.

Josh: So I think everyone is also like, where does it sit with me? But so what do I believe here?

Tommy: But I think like, that's like delivering something like I'm hiding something.

Josh: No, you're not hiding anything. I think you said you're hiding something because you're listening whether you Whether I have, I have assumptions. And so which is all I'm saying. And sometimes you don't air them because you're trying to explore.

Tommy: I don't, I don't, I don't communicate my assumptions as facts and I don't aggressively say that's like I've got an assumption on this, I'm going to go hard on that. I do think 2 or 3 times, think, okay, like what is the, the filter? Like what, what are these elements? And I think that I do. If something doesn't sit right, I'll say, uh, like, I, I disagree. I think like when we talked about, um, the Reiki stuff, if you go back to early episodes, uh, you were going hard on the, uh, Reiki, like all of those things serving people and being great. And so what I find interesting is taking that approach for something like that and then discrediting something like that.

Josh: You were doing the opposite too.

Tommy: You were saying, I was— no, I was— yeah, I was pushing. I was pushing against it to try and understand.

Josh: Or am I not doing that?

Tommy: No. Well, because I—

Josh: but you still had your opinion and belief. And so I'm saying—

Tommy: I didn't say it was bullshit.

Josh: I'm open to it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I can say it's bullshit.

Tommy: I think that you've come—

Josh: I think that's the beauty of our time, is you can say something's bullshit. It's just the problem lies when you were never open to ever changing your school of thinking or understanding.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But I think there's also—

Tommy: I think there's a lot of people who are saying is it rooted in science? Like, they listen to Joe Rogan. But this is the risk. The risk is you listen to some Joe Rogan or you listen to something and you've never, like, never go to university, never do any of that stuff, like, where you learn science. Like, you got up to Year 10 science, which is all Year 11 or Year 10 science, whatever it is, to then be the guy that is always arguing and using that seems like it's a little bit hard when we don't necessarily— like, I don't know, like when you say rooted in science, I'm like, I actually don't fucking— I don't, I don't know all this stuff. I don't even like— yes, there are, like, I will listen to professionals, I'll listen to what the 98% of scientists are saying about climate change, all that sort of thing. I'm not saying that we should be discrediting science, but I'm just saying that when we're having other conversations around faith, going to science as the first thing potentially might stop a productive conversation around the complexities of how we are as humans and what we do.

Josh: Then there is an element of that that is denying of science. So, so then it's choosing when you are agreeing with science.

Tommy: I don't think it's—

Josh: no, I don't think it's optional at that point.

Tommy: Like And then also, you just— I think that it comes down to those multiple truths.

Josh: And so it's like, I mean, I think—

Tommy: do you think there is a single truth?

Josh: No, I mean, you know my answer to that. There is— I know there are things like gravity that is scientifically proven that you won't argue against. You're not going to argue against gravity. But so there are, there are, there are more specific things that are probably more single truths about our existence.

Tommy: And then you listen to—

Josh: But no, but then you, you're not challenging those. You're not saying, well, I'm open to understanding something different based on that. And so that's where I think that point about the science thing is. You're saying I'm open to exploring even when science sort of proves it. It's like, well, there is other truths. And so that is a slippery slope in some respects. Going down that, because then it's like, what the fuck do you believe? When—

Tommy: so we might— I think that that's part of— and that's why you're so uncomfortable potentially, is that, uh, if you're— if you— if you're growing up wanting there to be one truth, if you're wanting to be like— and so if you're wanting to say, no, this is like the rational, this is the answer, this is the thing, like that— there is a real comfort in that.

Josh: I don't know how many people do that.

Tommy: So then if you if you grow up and you see your, uh, mum being Catholic and seeing how it served her, uh, then I think that potentially you could empathise with the idea that even if it doesn't connect with a truth over here, there is another truth that is out there.

Josh: I know, I get what you're saying, but—

Tommy: and so I wonder from a mental health point of view like people who do have faith and do, you know, enter into these different things, for the most part I think are happier. And so I do wonder that if we, if we don't have any framework outside of, uh, rational thinking and science and all that sort of thing, if we don't have anything outside of that in regards to a spiritual thing, if we only look at meditation as chemicals and all that sort of thing rather than potentially allowing a more spiritual thing?

Josh: I think you can do both. I don't think it's one or the other. I think— I don't— I definitely don't look at it as one or the other. And so yeah, I do, but I think you can have these conversations. I think people probably don't want to voice an opinion after they feel someone saying you can't, like, you can't— you don't even know, you can't have an opinion. I think it's okay have these conversations with your mates.

Tommy: And so saying like it's bullshit—

Josh: I'll still say it's bullshit. I can still say it's bullshit, but I'm open for a conversation around it. And I don't not think— I don't think— Do you say that if there's positivity in it for you, then is it good?

Tommy: Do you say if you find out someone that you know is, uh, religious, do you call that out as bullshit? If you know that it's bullshit, do you say that's bullshit?

Josh: But then you're just saying that I'm a strict atheist. I don't like— and I don't think it's— I don't think it's as simple as that. And so, you know, which I've spoken about, which is parts of the storey of the Bible, it's like, do people really think that happened? Parting of the seas, water into wine, like all these things based on your understanding, you're going to say that's not possible. Are you going to say that's possible from what you've experienced on this earth?

Tommy: Or are they metaphors?

Josh: But people believe it, Josh.

Tommy: And so that's, and so that's, so that's your truth. So that's your point, is your point is that your concern is that this app people are taking as complete truth, strict truth.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And you said, and, but I think that, and so what I'm questioning and the reason why I think that we're not seeing eye to eye on it is because there are multiple truths to everything.

Josh: And if— I don't think there's a conver— there's a conversation, but it's— it doesn't really go anywhere if that's just your first and only thought.

Tommy: So it goes somewhere if you are—

Josh: if you're willing to look at it and going, um, yeah, what, what would have made a better conversation for you? No, I don't think it's making a better conversation. I think asking those— should someone let their life be determined by this app? Yes or no?

Tommy: Well, but I think that that's like— that goes against my fundamental belief. But no, that's what— like, that is a— you're going into the rationalism questioning. And what I'm saying is that— what I'm saying is these are individual spiritual conversations that you can't— if you're using a— you're using a toolkit which isn't designed for spirituality to try and understand spirituality. And that's where I feel like you're going, like, getting mixed up with it. And so you're saying you're not, you're not willing to use that toolkit. I'm saying is because, like, yeah, it's, it's not like if you, if you use that toolkit, it won't work. What do you think, Seth, to finish up?

Mason: Um, yeah, well, I mean, I just, I just go back to, to thinking the whole thing about the truths and like all the stuff. Even, I mean, I, I personally, like, personally my assumption is that yeah, no, none of that stuff happened in the Bible. But it doesn't matter what my truth is or the scientific truth, so long as people believe it and find, I guess, like comfort and positivity in it. Doesn't matter. Yeah.

Josh: Anyone on Facebook?

Mason: Uh, no, we had Austin join though saying happy Monday, boys, and Ben saying morning, Gronks.

Josh: Morning.

Tommy: Good morning. Uh, yeah, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. I think if a good—

Josh: if you have an opinion, don't be that afraid to say something.

Tommy: But also particularly, uh, yeah, send us a, uh, an email with any suggestions of people that we could get on that could potentially better explain, because obviously we can have these conversations, but that's what— but we don't—

Josh: talking about complex shit.

Tommy: And so I don't necessarily know what—

Josh: but I think this is how you start and explore and learn, is by having a conversation with your mates about shit you don't understand and where you sit and where your belief system is, and also questioning that potential.

Tommy: Like, would you say too that your personal growth over the past 2 years has been around initially having this response to parts of life that now you are a little bit more open to the possibilities?

Josh: I think what— I think it's a prime question where you've laid out the answer in the question.

Tommy: It's a leading question.

Josh: It's a leading question. I think I'm more open to, uh, questioning what I think is truth. And I'm more open-minded to have conversations with people that aren't in the same thinking of me, and empowering other people who aren't of the same thought or thinking process as me to talk about that and be open to talking to other people. So I don't think it's as simple as I was different 2 years ago and wasn't open to talking about anything. I just am more understanding of other people have different ways of thinking. Well, it doesn't land in the middle of like anything, you know, because I don't have an opinion about anything. It's like it's wrong.

Tommy: Well, it's— yeah, because you sometimes you don't know. Like, I guess just to finish off, like if, if someone has an experience, a spiritual experience through doing some form of ritual or whatever it is, they have something that happens and then they have an experience if I haven't had that experience before, that doesn't mean that it's not real. If I can't explain it from a scientific point of view, it doesn't mean that it's not real. And so that's, I guess, the area that I'm playing in, which is like, just be up for conversation.

Josh: And if you're afraid to talk about your opinion or thoughts on something, doesn't mean bash down the fucking hat. Like me creating a podcast talking about how bullshit star signs are with never talking to anyone else that disagrees with me. That's not, that's not productive. Yeah, but having a conversation with someone who is posing up a what-if, what-if conversation is challenging, but I still don't think it gets us anywhere of in terms of like where someone who is of the opposite thought and then seeing how those two conversations play out. So if there was someone here that was completely convinced and was on the other side, not saying, but maybe they are good, maybe it is good for some people. I think that's when you really see the polarisation of the two sides, and you'd then be able to go, ah, which one is it? What do I— maybe a bit more information now. So I'm up for having a conversation with somebody who is completely sold in every aspect of the Herald Sun's star sign guide, and you've been running your life for the last 17 years based on that. I'd like to have that conversation.

Tommy: Great. All right, it's a Daily Talk Show. We should get the guy on this. Do you know who it is, Seth?

Josh: Yeah, it's a—

Tommy: it's—

Josh: he's famous. He's been doing it for years. He or she? I thought it was a he. I think it's a bald dude.

Tommy: Anyway, we can—

Mason: Jonathan Kane.

Tommy: Thank you. Uh, all right, it's a Daily Talk Show. See you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.