Simon Taylor On Testing & Listening

Simon: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 574.

Tommy: Our mate Simon Taylor back in the building.

Simon: The prestigious 574.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: Yes, it's an anniversary number.

Josh: It's a real thing with numbers. I feel like as you, uh, as you start getting through them, I don't pick up on it, but it's a very common thing for guests to bring up the number.

Tommy: Uh, this year's great, episode 666.

Simon: Oh yeah, maybe you should do something special.

Tommy: What's people's usual aversion to that? It's just like the devil. Is that right?

Simon: Devil's number. Yeah, it's just biblical.

Tommy: What's the number in the hotel that they remove?

Simon: Level 13.

Tommy: Level 13. That's nothing to do with that. That's just bad luck.

Simon: I guess so. Yeah, it's so funny that they— people really put a lot of weight on them. But you could— if you have 666, you should at least all dress up as the devil.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Grim Reaper or something.

Simon: Yeah, that'd be a great episode.

Tommy: Simon, when do you think people should stop saying Happy New Year?

Simon: Uh, never. I think we should just do it endlessly forever.

Tommy: Well, it's like, you know, the second— yeah, that first week back at work for a lot of people this week.

Simon: Two weeks.

Josh: It's a funny power month.

Simon: Yeah, 14th. Happy New Year.

Josh: If you did it in July, people would think you're talking about the financial year and you're a real dork. I imagine Barefoot gets around it. Happy New Year. All right, Barefoot.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. Oh, we've got an accountant here. Have you had Barefoot Investor on the show?

Josh: No, not yet, but he's been in the studio. He's working on a Foxtel documentary and it's being edited.

Simon: Oh, so he wants it widely viewed.

Tommy: Yeah, exactly. We did a bunch of— he's a client of ours, so he's coming on the show at some point.

Simon: But great.

Josh: And so he—

Simon: I love the bucket system.

Josh: Yeah. And so he actually, he brought in a bucket. We were doing some—

Tommy: not just one, multiple, 3.

Josh: And it's a real—

Simon: you're doing your finance wrong if it's one bucket. Yeah, yeah, that's how I used to do my finances.

Josh: Yeah, but he actually, um, it was an issue with continuity having so many buckets because he would put the bucket on the desk and then the director would say, can you remove the bucket just because we need to get a clean shot? And then we're—

Simon: it's a little—

Tommy: so we're going to feature in that account.

Josh: I mean, I think I'm going to get the— I think you definitely will because Tommy basically did a, um, a series of videos for people in school, like kids in schools. Uh, and so he created the— and produced the videos for that.

Tommy: It gets shown to the kids before the class. So there were 6 videos. Did you learn much about finance in school?

Simon: Nothing. And it took me ages to, um— I guess I was forced to do it because I was self-employed, because I was doing like, you know, entertainment. And so, you know, waiting for corporate gigs, understanding I understood cash flow because I didn't have anything to eat for 3 weeks. So I'm like, oh, I need money now.

Tommy: The pain is the solution.

Josh: But I also feel the problem.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. It's just it, uh, learning how to use, you know, a spreadsheet. Well, I learned like, so I learned Excel and stuff at school, and then did you pass?

Josh: Because I didn't. Oh really? Year 12 IT, it's the reason I failed, right?

Simon: But I just, I, uh, yeah, Excel is a lifesaver if you can get like automate things on Excel. Yeah, it's just, it's the best. And so whenever I have comedians say, oh, I've got any advice, I'm like, learn Excel. They're like, nah, about like my stand-up. I'm like, it's not important. Yeah, just get your finance right. Learn how to budget. Learn how to know that, oh, if I'm not making any money this month, you know, how long can I survive without money? So I, I knew I lived in New York for what, 8 months or whatever?. And I knew exactly how much money to spend per day if I wanted to survive New York without having to get any other work. So, if I knew, if I don't pick up any gigs in the next 8 months, I can survive until this day spending this much money. And that is my way of dealing with what people freak out about is in comedy and entertainment. Like, dude, how do you do? How do you like live not knowing where your next paycheck is? Excel spreadsheet.

Tommy: Work it out. Do you think that for you that system actually motivates you to get the work? I mean, the other system is don't think about it and just fucking hope that money comes in.

Simon: Yeah, that's— I've seen people really failing.

Tommy: Knowing the safety of, I know 8 months, I can last a year. So are you going as hard or does it motivate you?

Simon: Yeah. So it'll change the priority of the projects. So if I'm struggling, then I'm like, oh, or if I know I'm going to struggle soon, I'm like, right, I need to focus on getting some corporate gigs and some club gigs and selling merch and like really pushing things that aren't that enjoyable, but will get money on the table. If I know I've got like 6 months or whatever, I'm like, right, maybe write a new show. Maybe I'll work on like a, you know, a sketch, you know, web sketch or something so I can do it in that time because I know that the money's not— yeah. Not needed. So it will change my priority of project.

Josh: What did you spend your money on in New York? Where did it all go?

Tommy: Rent. Yeah.

Simon: Bought a bike to get around. And then, yeah, like food. And then I guess doing like things you can only do in New York, the museums there. Saw Spider-Man in New York. That was the best city to see it.

Josh: What about food? Did you?

Simon: Yeah, food. Yeah, food, of course.

Josh: Dollar pizza. Is that like—

Simon: That was my favourite thing. Yeah. 2 AM dollar pizza. Because it doesn't— the pizza doesn't matter. It's the hot sauce that you put on it. Sure.

Josh: And especially at 2 AM when you're meant to be in bed.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. It's the best.

Tommy: What was the schedule as a comedian living in New York? Because I hear about people doing 6 shows a night and 5 days a week.

Simon: Yeah, there's— I think it's better in Melbourne because it's too flooded in New York. What the problem with New York, New York comedy at the moment is entry level is impossible. There's 10,000 comedians. And they all want gigs. So the rooms start charging open mic comedians to do a spot. So it's 5 bucks. You wanted— oh, you want to do open mic room? It's 5 bucks. And the bar is only having us if you buy a drink as well, so one drink minimum. So you've spent $11 now, plus the, you know, tip to the bar person, to go do a spot with, um, for like 3 minutes with all these other open mic comics who are on their phones, who aren't listening, or are walking out. Like and back. So terrible if you just want to, um, do work out new material, because I use open mics in Melbourne to work new material out. But I think in New York, it's almost like as soon as you don't need to do them, you don't do them anymore. You get in with a club. So in Australia, we don't have enough clubs to just play at clubs every single night. So I'll do the Comics Lounge for a week That's great. But then the next week I'll do some bar shows and that's great. And then the next week I'll do some open mics to work on new material. Then I'll do festivals. So I think just, yeah, New York is good if you're in with a club and you can do that club regularly.

Tommy: So it's, yeah, you need to be of a certain caliber.

Simon: Yeah, you need to be cast. They call it being cast at a club. So I got past at Broadway Comedy so I could go and do Broadway, you know, nearly every night of the week.

Tommy: What happens when you get past? What is there, ceremony? Charging you $11.

Josh: It's $2.50.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just know you feel like you're now worthy. No, not even. Now you're competing with all the other dudes who have passed, you know?

Tommy: So they turn your mic on.

Josh: Yeah. And so what's that like? Is it actually— so that's a term that's used?

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: How do you know?

Simon: Bigger in America that we don't really use in Australia.

Josh: And so what's the Like, how do you know that you've been passed? So you've been passed? What does that mean?

Tommy: Like, you've passed the test?

Simon: They'll say something like, I got passed at the store, meaning they will give me regular gigs now.

Josh: Okay.

Simon: Because it's open mic until you're passed and now you get regular gigs.

Tommy: And then they— you get paid for the regular gigs or no? No. Okay. So it's still like the dudes in LA at the Comedy Store, the big names, are they getting paid?

Simon: Mm, I don't think so. If they are, it's something tokenistic like $25. Or something like that.

Tommy: But then they're— I mean, classic Joe Rogan goes to the store.

Simon: It's like, yeah, but they're going to work out material. So if you've got a profile and you're going to go on tour and charge people $30 a ticket, you better have good material, right? And it better be stuff they haven't heard before. So to do that, you go to the clubs or you go to open mics or you go to bar shows and you work out material. So this is— this month for me is like big time trying to get material, you know, worked out. So I've got like a list of all this new material, all these premises I want to try. I was thinking I was just going to run, you know, spend this hour because that's all I'm doing in January, working on material. I thought, oh, I'll come and I'll just work my show out on the show.

Tommy: Yeah, let's start. Joke 1. You said how much?

Simon: I'll show you my list.

Tommy: Okay.

Simon: Yeah, he's— so in my phone. The problem with this is—

Josh: is that a Pixel or what is that?

Simon: This is a Samsung Galaxy S10. I am not sponsored by them, but Samsung, if you're out there. Best phone for comedy. Actually, it's actually, that's kind of true because you can have, when you record your sets, you can go to record, record to text. So you can record your set and then have your set on.

Tommy: Someone was telling us about this with the phone.

Josh: And he was saying the great thing is like if a bird makes a noise, it will then like tag it bird.

Simon: What?

Josh: That's like the Google one.

Tommy: Not sure how many birds are out there.

Simon: Yeah.

Tommy: Maybe it tags it heckler.

Josh: Oh, yeah. What about laughs? It's got a tag if there's laughs.

Simon: A-hole.

Tommy: Yeah, that'd be good.

Simon: That'd be so good. It's just like, well, you know what would be amazing if it actually like measured the laughs on how on a scale of 1 to 10.

Josh: Oh, that's a good idea.

Simon: So then you could cut all the jokes that are below 5.

Josh: Yes. What about the idea of having like a, I mean, this is probably a horrendous idea, the, an app. Everyone's going to be on their phone anyway. Just sort of like you see it in like the, what are those groups called? Where it's like people are reviewing stuff, but they could press a button if it's funny or not.

Simon: Oh, um, focus groups and test groups.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, that could be fun. And so what app are you using there?

Simon: This is just, uh, the Notes, the Keep Notes.

Josh: Okay, Google Keep.

Simon: Yeah, I think I accidentally deleted something.

Josh: All your jokes, start again.

Simon: Oh no. Anyway, it's fine. Um, so yeah, my new stand-up set, uh, first premise is I love my girlfriend. So that's great, not getting any laughs. People are like, all right, whatever. Yeah, yeah, no, um, is this your gratitude list? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Pee the bed. There you go. Manly, super boyfriend, babysitter, meet girlfriend's dad, dip. That's like the tobacco they put in their mouth in the South. My girlfriend's from Kentucky. The word well, playing the game rook, it's a card game, texting her dad. So, that's like a new set. That's just the set list of material I need to try. And last night I did the babysitter one was I'm worried about having kids because of money. And like, amen.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a true worry. It's a—

Simon: well, yeah, it's a real worry. So, uh, apparently like babysitters can be $30 an hour.

Tommy: Yeah, man.

Simon: So if you are like, it's at 3, 6, 9, 12, so $120 for 4 hours. But what I figured, right, there are some return flights, uh, to Adelaide for $90. So if you drop your kid off at the airport, put them on the flight go out, have your night, pick them up in the airport 4 hours later. You've saved some sweet cash.

Josh: That's a great idea. It has to be return. Is it return?

Tommy: Return? Well, they do offer like a service to sort of look at— it depends on the age— look after the kid.

Simon: Pick them out.

Josh: Pick them. Well, I thought they were just going to Adelaide.

Tommy: Yeah, it was.

Simon: I said return. All right, well, there you go. That's some good feedback on the joke.

Josh: I need to return. So you're getting there and back? Yes. Yeah, that's like—

Simon: am I gonna do it? So you get there and back for all you Joshes in the in the crowd who've got a nitpick.

Josh: Because there's something else, like you could say, oh, you know, you can get a flight to Adelaide, you know, $90 or whatever. So it's sort of— and then the kids in Adelaide, so you don't have to worry about them anymore.

Tommy: You can whack them on the Frankston line, 2-hour return trip.

Simon: Yeah, that's pretty—

Josh: that's a good idea.

Simon: That's really good. What's that, $450? Do you know how many PSOs?

Josh: Maybe talk about the PSOs. Like, there's PSOs at Dandy State. Like, I've worked out Pakenham line It's getting too nuanced. See, I had too many layers.

Tommy: And so this is a list that you've got, right? So how much do you go into the joke before you go up on stage and give it a, give it a crack?

Simon: Uh, it'll just be a premise. So I'll write down a bunch of premises, uh, throughout, you know, my life. Sometimes I'll wake up in the morning.

Josh: By the way, what is she drinking?

Simon: That is my girlfriend. She's, I think she's drinking coconut water on my phone. Um, uh, the background, if it was a milkshake, it's pretty embarrassing.

Tommy: So you got the dot points and then premises, which—

Simon: yeah, so premise, um Like, for example, I'm just trying to find something that would be— There's so many of them.

Tommy: Josh won't pick apart.

Simon: No, so many of them are bad.

Josh: Can you lean into a bad one? What's your least favourite joke?

Simon: Okay, this is my least favourite premise at the moment. Old people don't go to therapy. My generation goes to therapy for everything. Like, I stubbed the toe, I need 3 weeks to, you know, come to terms with myself.

Josh: Trauma.

Simon: But old people don't go because they were like, you know, oh, when I was young, we never had the therapist. We just pushed our feelings down until we lashed out at the barista for not making the coffee hot enough. Like, that's— and then, uh, yeah. So anyway, that's just the premise of the, like, older people that never went to therapy. They're like, no, we just got on with it, just got angry. So that's, that's a premise that I don't think is funny enough yet. I haven't put it on stage yet because I just don't think the idea is strong enough. But there's something there. I'll just write something like that down. Yeah. And if I think it's good enough, I'll put it on stage and if it gets a laugh, I'll keep working on it. But I don't want to work on a joke too long. Like, just say I spend a day working on one premise like that. I get on stage and no one thinks the premise is funny. Well, now I've wasted a day on a joke that I'm not even going to do anymore.

Josh: So premise first.

Simon: Premise first. Have maybe one line, try it out on stage. If that gets good traction, then I'll expand on it.

Tommy: Shit Yourself. Is that a good premise to start with? Shitting yourself.

Simon: Shitting yourself. Yeah, it can be. I know some comics who have some good gear on that.

Josh: Yeah. Is it a com— like, I know Tropfest was— it was always frowned upon because Tropfest films always had— there was always one film that had like poo humor.

Simon: That's really funny.

Josh: Is that a thing within stand-up? Is it like, does everyone have a poo humour joke?

Simon: Well, I don't know. Well, there's different, I guess, genres of comedy in a sense, styles. So yeah, I'd say style. So some people are blue. Meaning they're crass and they'll do that sort of humour. No, but, you know, farts are always funny, embarrassing stories. It depends how it's done. So, for example, like Billy Connolly does a bit about having to get a colonoscopy. So, he takes the meds, the laxatives the night before, and he just does this amazing bit. He's like, I'm sitting on the couch and I feel a rumble and I run to the thing and then I'm like, Like he's doing all the sounds. So, you think, oh, that's base humour because he's just talking about like diarrhoea and cough. But the real bit is about him worrying about his health. He's like, oh, dude, I might have prostate cancer. Oh, man, I might have whatever. So, he's— It's actually deriving from fear. And he's like, this is, you know, so now I'm freaked out because I've got to get this thing done and now I'm shitting everywhere.

Josh: And so, what's the premise then? So, if you were to work out what What, what are the layers of a joke, do you think?

Simon: Of that joke?

Josh: Of a joke. So there's the premise. So a premise is what it's about. Yeah. And so would that be how people could relate to it?

Tommy: Is that what you're trying to do? Is like—

Simon: not necessarily. Like, I don't, you know, you don't, um, I, I think I'm reverse engineering it right now, but I don't think you sit there and construct it, you know, in a like a technical sense. You just go, that's an okay idea. Oh, do it in front of a crowd and let them decide. So, the audience is doing all the work. I'm just saying the thing that I thought of and then doing what the audience tells me to do. It's like they're the gauge. So, I'll try that. I tried that, you know, the babysitter on the plane last night. That got a huge reaction. I didn't think it would get that big a reaction. So, now I'm like, oh, well, I will do that. But if it was left up to me, if I had never heard the audience, I might have thought, nah, it's not— I don't know if it's that good an idea. I'll ditch it. So, I always just get an idea, got to put it in front of an audience and they decide. So, the premise is just what it's, you know, what the joke's about. And then you got to have, you know, you got to have punchlines in it. So, yeah, you got to get to punchlines as quickly as possible.

Josh: And the absurdity as well. So, taking the plane example. Wondering if we could layer it like, yeah. So, the absurdity is that it's, you would, it's cheaper to put the kid on a plane and fly in the air.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: And go back and forth. Return. Than it is to.

Simon: But it's also a truism. So, truism is like if it's technically true, then yeah, it's, it's, it's absurd. But it's also real.

Josh: So from a layman's point of view, would you potentially say— and you know, once they get there, I've just looked online, they can rent a car for $12.

Simon: Like, yeah, you could, you could do that. I mean, that— yeah, if you want to go down that line, I'll give you an example of a routine right now. I'll do it. Do you want me to do a routine? Yeah, that goes down that absurd.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: All right, so, um, uh, biggest problem in my life as a millennial, sometimes my phone storage is full., and it's always too many photos, right? You have like 7,000 photos and you can't delete them all in one go, especially with an Apple phone. You try to delete them, you know, they make you delete them one at a time. You get bored, throw it out, buy another iPhone. And you know, there's no official response online. You look up, how do I delete all my photos in one go? The Apple doesn't give a shit. Like, you just, you find some 20-minute YouTube video with some 8-year-old kid who's like, hey guys, don't forget to like and subscribe. And you're like, just tell me how to delete the photos in one go. And he sends you to some weird website site, you've got to download some jailbreaking program, you get the programme and it's like, do you want to delete all your photos in one go? Like, that's exactly what I want to do. They go, well, that's a premium edition, that's $14.99. You're like, oh great. So you borrow dad's credit card and you buy the programme and then all of a sudden the programme's like, this programme's not compatible with your operating system. You're like, why did you tell me that after I paid for it? So you go back to the original website, try to get your money back, but there's no, you know, help center, there's no contact form, there's just some address in Russia. So you head to Russia and when you get to Russia, the cab driver Boris picks you up and he's like, "Want to make some money?" Like, who doesn't wanna make money, Boris? So he sets you up in a corner of Moscow selling drugs to the local expats 'cause you speak English and everyone loves an Aussie. And the head of the Russian mafia commissions you to go in the enemy turf and take them out so it frees up some of the area for you to deal drugs. You don't exactly know what you're doing, but you grab an AK-47 'cause you feel better with a bit of weight behind you. And you go into the enemy turf and you're seeing John Wick, so you're like, "Brrr." You got blood on your hands that'll never wash off, but the head of Russian mafia is like, you did well, you can marry my daughter. And you don't really buy into that patriarchal bullshit because you're pretty woke, but hey, a promotion's a promotion. So you're at the altar and Katya is coming down the aisle, she looks beautiful, you're like, oh my God, I lucked out. So you make love on your wedding night and all of a sudden she's pregnant. 9 months later you rush to the hospital and she's in labour and she gives birth and it's a baby and it's a boy. You're like, oh my God, I'm a dad, I'm a first-time dad, this is the greatest moment of my life. And go to take a selfie with the newborn child and you're like, ah, fuck, my storage is full. So that's taking it to an absurd— that's the absurd one. Yeah.

Josh: So it starts with observational, like, and because you're waiting for it to be brought back to the thing, which that's the punchline.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so in that, that's an example of, uh, an observation of like, oh, don't you hate it when your storage is full? Apple doesn't let you delete photos. People go, oh, so true, that's relatable, but it's not that funny yet. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, yes, I relate, and you might get a laugh, but then where you go from there? So that's a— that's an example of going, I'll take it to an absurd place. So I like it in that sense, but some jokes you do, some jokes you don't.

Josh: Do you like improvisation?

Simon: Yeah, I do, but I think when people are paying, you know, $30 to see a stand-up, they want to see the best stuff. At least that's how I feel.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: But sometimes you go see like Ross Noble and you want to see him go wild. Yeah.

Tommy: For me, so watching the Kevin Hart documentary recently, someone said to him, you're saying jokes, but they're not connect— they're not you. We don't know anything about you. They're not personal. I mean, so there's the improv, which is sort of bringing in just making shit up, and then you've got the personal style approach as a comedian that's very much revealing about yourself. Where do you think you land in terms of how much you bring yourself and honesty? How much does that play a part in your comedy?

Simon: Yeah, it's a big deal, I think, because I, I've got to run a new show every year. I do a new hour every year, and some years you're just like, I just need to fill the time, so you're putting stuff in that's not perfectly you. I had a joke recently that was about an old man trying to use a Dyson hand dryer and it was getting laughs. But I listened to it back and I'm like, I'm just making fun of an old man. Yeah. And it's not— that's not me. I'm not like that. So I've kind of cut the bit even though it gets good laughs because. Yeah.

Josh: So now you also have Dyson as a brand sponsorship, so you can't mention that anymore.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. No, that's got to go. Well, they actually come off well. I say I was using the Dyson hand dryer the other day to put bathroom. I didn't even use the bathroom, I was just there for the dryer. So that's like, that's good, that's a good setup. But then it goes into like an old man didn't know how to do— I don't know how to do it, I can't put it— oh, help me, young man. And, uh, you know, anyway, so it's just, it's not a great—

Josh: I don't know, you—

Simon: it's not me, I don't like it. And so that's going. But then some jokes like the one I just told you, I really like that because I enjoy flights of fancy and, you know, I'm a millennial, so I got a lot, you know, I worry about tech. I know a lot about it. Like even the references throughout about the kid on YouTube, like and subscribe. That's something that we get. Yeah, maybe slightly older generation don't know the catchphrase. Don't forget to like and subscribe.

Tommy: The John Wick reference I liked.

Simon: Yeah, John Wick reference and that sort of stuff.

Tommy: So that's also the absurdity that just he kills everybody like he's just is this fucking shooting and killing everyone.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Simon: You've seen John Wick, so you know what to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So saying those things reflects who I am, and, and, and they will get bigger laughs. And, and because people go, yes, I feel like I, I'm learning about him. But if I go out and go, aren't old people idiots with technology, it might— they might get laughs, but, but I think afterwards it will would leave a bad taste in people's mouth and go, oh, you know, that's not, you know, whatever.

Tommy: Like, yeah. In terms of— so we did at 500 live show, first live show we've done of that, you know, that scale, um, had about 80 people in the room and we got a lot of laughs. We're not comedians, but I think there's, there's something about a live audience that sort of gets you on your seat. Do you think, do you think that's a thing? Is it like the live thing is not like, say, if we were listening to a comedy set without a laugh track behind it. So you're listening to it raw as you're in the audience, but no one else is there but you and the earbuds.

Simon: Yeah. Is it—

Tommy: do you think it's still as funny as it is live?

Simon: I don't know scale, but it's certainly like the psychology of it is like social proof, and like you hear people laughing, you're more likely to think it's it's funny, but people can pick up on it if it's fake. Like, can't— people hate canned laughter because they're like, stop trying to trick me into liking it, it's not funny.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Simon: But if it feels legit and it feels organic and real, then yeah, you— I think it increases your enjoyment of the thing, but it also changes your timing. So I think you guys say you're not comics, but you're funny guys, but also you're good at listening. And so when you two get in front of a crowd you, you will listen to the audience and respond. And like, that's, that's really what all a comedian is doing. They're saying something and listening and going, oh, okay, I'm going to keep doing that. Um, so I think if you've got that basic skill of listening— because you can see actors sometimes are bad at comedy, um, certainly initially, because they're not used to listening to a crowd like that. They used to being focused on, you know, their script and what they're saying and locking in with one person and maybe responding to that one person. But with a crowd, it can be, it can be different. Maybe, maybe TV actors, I think, um, play actors are different, theatre actors are different. But, uh, yeah, so I would say the, the laughter helps you, and I think listening to it, if you're listening to the podcast with the laughter, I think it's Yeah, definitely more enjoyable to feel like, you know, things are getting big laughs.

Josh: Last time you were on the show, did you mention it on the show or was it outside? You talked about the key person of influence which your sister got you.

Simon: Yeah, my sister got me. So I thought, oh guys, start of the year, let's, you know, give our businesses a kickstart.

D: Yeah.

Simon: Top 5 things to do.

Josh: Amazon.com best-selling books.

Simon: That's probably propaganda.

Josh: But it's like, it looks like it's a gold badge.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: So, it looks real.

Tommy: What else does it say?

Josh: It's the revised edition. It's the 5-step method to become one of the most highly valued and highly paid people in your industry.

Simon: And look at this, right? You've got all these red people, but you want to be the blue guy. Yeah.

Tommy: I want to be that blue guy.

Simon: How do I be the blue guy?

Josh: So, the blue guy is on the top of the world and he's doing some form of salute.

Simon: And every— all the red guys look sad.

D: Yeah.

Simon: And they got their arms crossed or on their hips. Yeah. They're not doing great. So how to be a blue guy.

Josh: I love it.

Simon: So I wanted to—

Tommy: Have you read it back to front?

Simon: Yeah, I have. But I want to implement some things now in January with you guys and then come on the show again if I'm welcome.

Josh: Well, if you're a blue guy, you bloody are.

Tommy: You can be a part of the blue crew.

Josh: Yeah, the blue crew.

Tommy: The blue crew.

Simon: Maybe like a blue man group.

Tommy: Yes.

Simon: Yeah. And I want to see if you guys implement them because I know you guys care about this stuff. So I thought, yeah, have you read it?

Josh: Have you read it? So I've got it on my bedside table. So it's as good as read. Yeah, it's as good as read.

Tommy: Definitely.

Simon: People think you've read it when they come round.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: Actually, it's a lie. I don't have a bedside table. It's on the floor, but next to my bed, which is neat. We need bedside tables though. But interestingly, your revised one, bit thicker than mine.

Simon: Oh, really? Yeah, there you go. Well, I get the real info. Yeah, you've got the updated stuff.

Tommy: Get to be a blue guy, but quicker than you will.

Simon: Yeah, I'll read you this bit. All right. We're living in a very different world today than we were just a decade ago.

Josh: So true. It's so true. So true of every— that's a truism.

Tommy: That's such a truism.

Simon: Yeah. Uh, we're at the beginning of a whole new era. We are no longer in the industrial age. We are in a new economy that's digital, global, intangible, more meaningful, and very entrepreneurial. Everything has changed, and so must you.

Josh: Hashtag like and subscribe.

Simon: Yeah, exactly, don't forget to like and subscribe.

Josh: Um, uh, he's got illustrations.

Simon: Oh man, you being an accountant—

Josh: what the, the man yells at the other man.

Simon: I think it's a boy yelling at a man.

Josh: I don't understand the—

Simon: yeah, uh, looking good. I know an accountant, he is a great accountant. However, he's not happy, and I know why. When he was 18 years old, fresh out of high school, he became an accountant. I'm sure this is all about Today he's frustrated. I think what, what the, the, the best stuff in this is, um, uh, the difference between key people of influence are vital people, not functional people. People who are performing a vital role see themselves as aligned to the result rather than the process. So this is talking about like, are you replaceable in a job? So like, if, if you're an accountant or whatever, or you're working in a company, you're doing, um, like camera work in a company or something like that, can, can you be replaced, um, the next day? Like, yeah, we can get another dude to— we get another camera operator. But if you're like the engine behind it, you know, the ideas, like you come up with— you're coming up with ideas, you're devising strategy, you're driving, uh, a, a company and, and where it's going, you're not replaceable.

Tommy: Do you think there's a difference between thinking you're irreplaceable and actually be irreplaceable? Because I've left roles and said these fuckers aren't gonna find someone as good as me. Like, that's me almost going, they—

Simon: well, no, but this is quality. It turns on like what, what is the— your function. So if your function is like, yeah, like, you know, editing or whatever, yeah, like they might not find someone as good an editor as you or as fast as you, so that, you know, their, their production may drop, but, uh, they'll, you know, they'll find someone you know, the quality may drop. But in terms of like, if you're creating new and interesting ways to edit for the brand that are, you know, going to make the brand stand out and get more attention and you're an ideas man behind that, well, then you're not replaceable in terms of your personality and what you bring to that specific innovation.

Josh: You almost need to be like multidimensional, like you need to steal from a bunch of different areas. Yeah. Go on. The other interesting thing for the accountant, they've still got 6 months before they have to wait for their New Year's resolutions. They've got time. Happy New Year, July 1st.

Simon: We've got some exercises in the book.

Josh: What sort of exercises?

Simon: Who do you know who shows up as a functional person to their job?

Tommy: Functional. What is the functional meaning again?

Josh: They just do the job.

Simon: They just do the job as required.

Tommy: They're a cog. They just do the job. Yeah, they're in and it turns. Yeah. Who do I know? I think a lot of people do. Yeah. I mean, stop looking at Mr. 97, Josh.

Josh: He's definitely not a cog. He's the opposite of a cog. Or he's at least a flog. He's two cogs at once, which is very hard to do.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: No, I think he's, he's a proprietary cog. Right. Only works in certain machines.

Simon: Right.

Tommy: But he works in our machine.

Josh: Yeah. The thing is, like, are we saying you want me to save you? This book is for you.

Tommy: He won't work in other machines. That's what she's saying.

Josh: Like, we're like, Sony, yeah, it's the battery works with that with us.

Simon: Canon.

Tommy: Or you're the abusive partner that's telling the woman that you won't find anyone else.

Simon: Yeah, I've come and I've blown up the production. Who do you know who is currently a vital person where their ideas steer the business?

Josh: That's actually 97.

Simon: In all seriousness, what are some of the differences you notice between them?

Tommy: So yeah, we need—

Josh: so the cog— okay, the cog in the machine versus the vital. So the vital person will do shit that's not their job.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Josh: Because if you just do the job, that is, uh, jobs that are normally created are functional. Like, if you're just doing your job description, that is a functional description, whereas being vital is like 97, like when he does the show notes and stuff, functional, doing like he did a tour of the studio that we filmed. He was on camera, his personality being in it.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: What is— what personality is there? Vital.

Simon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's true. Well, that's probably true of like, not to bring up another podcast show, but like on like Joe Rogan, whatever. He's got Jamie in the booth doing all that stuff and he can have a producer and interchangeable.. But the fact that Jamie has become a personality and an icon is more vital because he's now bigger than, you know, just the job.

Josh: If you just— yeah, if it was just a job description, you need to be able to turn on the live streaming, you need to like Google, that stuff is like replaceable. The vital stuff is being the—

Simon: being a reliable source for people. Because when Joe Rogan says, Jamie, can you bring that up? The audience trusts He's not going to go on Bing. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: I mean, a radio anchor we've had. Have we had both of these people on our show? No, we haven't. Daniel, Dan Gondee.

Josh: Gondee.

Tommy: Dan was an anchor on Nova.

Simon: Yeah.

Tommy: Got replaced by Dan Anstey.

Josh: Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Tommy: Literally, I know them both and I started listening and then one week I hear another one. They're saying Dan. I'm like, I've just fucking replaced a Dan with a Dan and they sound very similar. Literally, how insulting.

Josh: Because they were playing functional roles, but now they're not. They're both killing it doing their own thing.

Tommy: Yeah, they're both doing their own show.

Simon: Yeah. They read the book, mate.

Josh: Yeah, that's right.

Tommy: But that's what you can be replaced by another Dan in an anchor role.

Josh: Don't be a Dan.

Simon: Today expects you to be trained. It expects you to educate yourself constantly and bring something new to the table. So that's probably another example.

Josh: Well, Mr. 97's word of the year.

D: Yeah. Oh, there are two of them, but yeah, lean in.

Josh: It's all about leaning in for him. So I think that plays into that education and sort of learning and yeah, immersing yourself in what you're, what you're doing.

Simon: And yeah, more trying new shit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: All right, so I wonder where the key, um, okay, key person of influence method. Um, big graph, it's a nice big graph. Oh man, I should have done more highlight. I did like two highlighting Things. Um, step 1.

Tommy: Okay, look good is impressive. A key person of influence.

Simon: Oh, here we go. Yeah, okay, yeah, go for it. Uh, number 1 pitch. Your perfect pitch is so much more than you think. The truth is, what, uh, a perfect pitch, uh, with a perfect pitch, you will be swamped with opportunity. So this chapter is about how do you pitch your idea, your business, your goals, yeah, to someone really clearly. Because I find this all the time with startups.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: When you say, oh, so what's your startup like? Oh, you know, we're like consulting innovations, you know, problem solving, whatever. And I don't know what you do. So many companies. Agile.

Tommy: Yeah. Tinder meets Airbnb.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: Yeah.

Tommy: I guess that's more specific.

Josh: So how do we do it? Because we're not good at the pitch necessarily.

Tommy: So if we're going to use the startup example, you've got the fluffy startup, but then I also think you've got the, the real like fucking ability, like Jules Lund with Tribe to just— it's a marketplace, but you know, he just nails the pitch, right?

Simon: Yeah. But then can inspire people and people go, I know what you're talking about, let me connect with that.

Tommy: Which I think a lot of these new startups, their business models are so specific and have had to be thought out with that pitch. And then the nuance of freelancing model, like I do a bit of this, do a bit of that, like people still trying to find their feet of what I'm actually doing, what service am I providing, what value am I bringing. When you're working that out, it's hard to have the pitch down pat, right? Don't you think? Like when you're like, well, it's—

Simon: yeah, I guess so. I guess if it's not clear in your head and it's flexible and it's too movable, then I guess you want how you achieve that pitch to be flexible, but you don't want the pitch to be flexible. So does that make sense?

Tommy: So it's knowing your audience. Who are you speaking to at that moment? What do they even give a shit about? About, which takes a level of sort of being in the moment to work out, okay, Simon, you're a comedian, I— we, we make videos, how can we relate? If I'm telling you about what we do as a business or the show, like, which one do we bring?

Josh: You're an HR professional, we might say, um, at the Daily Talk Show is about serving the future of work. People aren't working in offices now, they're spending more time working from home.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: And there's an opportunity to create something consistent that they can listen to every day that is beyond the typical commercial radio. Commercial radio is like a broad audience, it's geo-specific, right? We're providing, uh, something different.

Tommy: Yeah, we're keeping company during your work day, which is not normal anymore.

Simon: Yeah, well, it's relevant not just startups, relevant to music brands and to, to things like that. So like a startup example is my cousin has one called Traveling tradies. And, uh, for a while the pitch was a little bit like— it was difficult to nail down. But now what it is, is, um, he, uh, provides Australian tradies with holiday experiences, uh, in developing countries who need tradies to help their local communities.

Tommy: Awesome.

Simon: And so it took him a while to— I hope I did it justice— to to nail that down. But when he— and if he can pitch that to everyone, when people go, what do you do? And he can say that I help developing countries get things fixed in their communities by sending Australian tradies over for holidays. It's great. He did that on the Today Show and he, he does that in, you know, pitch meetings, things like that. People go, oh, I get it. I know what they are helping. Yeah. Developing countries. Amazing. Giving tradies, you know, a holiday is, you know, important too, because mental health in, in, in that industry is really important. So he did— has done really well now to lock that down. And now how he goes about it, whether it's through an app, that has changed. Like, oh, the website, we've got to get the website right. Oh, we're going to do it manually. No, that's too much. Okay, we'll do it through an app. Like, so how he gets to there will be flexible, but the, the, the core pitch has been pretty well locked down now.

Tommy: So, Josh, when you left yesterday, I kept watching, um, Jason Calacanis or something.

Josh: The Jason Calacanis. Yeah, so he's got This Week in Startup, a podcast he's had for like 12, 12 or 14 years.

Tommy: It's a video show though. If you're gonna see it, cheque it out on YouTube because you, you see— so there was like the one I was watching was a bunch of Aussies and he's like, he's sitting down at his desk and they're standing up. So he's, he's got him standing up and he's sitting there and he's All right, you've got a minute and a half, 2 minutes or whatever it is. Now pitch.

Simon: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: But then he's so brutal after. He's like, look, your pitch was terrible, but you, you're great.

Simon: It's just like it's a Gordon Ramsay going on. Yeah.

Tommy: And so you saw— I saw like someone cramming in information into the pitch. There was like a lot in it. Yeah, but not much connecting to what the idea is or what the thing is.

Josh: Well, I reckon we need to do a better job of it. I'll send you around. Like, so for instance, from a video point of view, you could say, uh, we do video production for all different types of brands. What Jason Calacanis says is use an actual real-world example. Yeah, so for us, the real-world example would be, uh, we worked with a company called LandBuild. They were working on a site in Geelong to rebuild the beach house, which was a iconic area in Geelong where there's going to be a cafe and all that sort of thing. And we filmed the whole process from start to finish with them dealing with the council, speaking with the, uh, the, the client that is putting the whole cafe together. And by the end of it, they ended up with a video that they can show to other potential clients with, this is what we do, this is how we make it. I did a shit job.

Tommy: No, I know, but so then the the second attempt, how do you lead with the problem?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So, um, construct— we're in video production. Construction companies, uh, creating these amazing buildings and structures, and people see the final product, but they don't see the journey along the way, the hard work that was put in. We helped LandBuild capture over 4 months the development of one of their greatest developments that they've been a part of, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or maybe even the final product or something you're in the process.

Simon: Or maybe you say we help people tell their storeys of triumph.

Josh: Well, the thing is, success or— For a lot of people, it doesn't necessarily explain the specific, like, I guess there's something in the specificity of it where you say like one of the things with builders is it's really a process of them entering tenders or putting themselves forward for tenders. Yeah, like tenders are based on trust and pricing. Pricing is very easy. You can look at a spreadsheet, you can see how much something costs. Trust really is something that's less tangible, right? And so what we do is we help bring that trust element by putting together videos that communicate their history and how they've done it previously, their processes, their interactions with the client.

Tommy: So you get a tangible incredible sense of how they go about development.

Simon: Right.

Tommy: And we capture that. And yeah, take it, take it over.

Simon: What's going on? No. Okay, well, look, I'll go back to the book and see what they reckon perfect pictures are. Here are some excerpts from Perfect Pictures That Changed the World. I have a dream. So, well, great, Martin Luther King. That is such a bad sign. You know, I have a dream that someday this nation will live up to its creed that all men are created equal, right? Um, uh, uh, you must be the change you want to see in the world, Gandhi, and things like that. Man, this is so tight.

Tommy: They're going pretty high.

Simon: They're going really high. Um, but, uh, I think, oh man, there was a section where he put it really well. When people say, well, what do you do? And you go, oh, I'm a, you know, I'm a builder. You go, oh, okay. Then that sort of label, that's uninspiring. But if it's like, um, hey, what do you do? And you go, oh, I make, um, senior people's lives, uh, you know, better by, um, uh, adjusting their house to suit their medical conditions. You go, oh, that's, that's really awesome. Yeah. So I think that is that specificity that you talk about. So it's the prob—

Josh: it's, it's saying how you're solving a problem.

Simon: Yeah, I guess so. But yeah, I guess it's called Clear Vision.

Tommy: I went to a seminar and it was like reverse engineering it. So it's like there was some process that they went, but it's like, yeah, leading, leading with that kind of like you're not even— they don't even know what you do yet. They understand the sort of the value you bring. So like that's— yeah, we help like a wedding photographer, you know, it's like special moments, you know, like, like entering into the emotion before you've even said the thing. So you should sort of lead the thing. But I mean, this is not human interaction. If we're at— if I'm at a party and someone does that to me, yeah, I'd be like, this guy's fucking a bit—

Josh: oh, but so if you do it in a story, if you wrap it up in a story, you're trying to wrap it up in a story, but you're also trying to be a human.

Tommy: Like, yeah, you're not in pitch mode necessarily when you're at the pub or at a party.

Simon: Like, here's an example, right? He's doing that, right? So from to what, right? What do you do? I have a PR agency. We do work on brand endorsement deals, right? That's the basic boring— boring. Two, I run a PR agency. We specialise in matching celebrities with product endorsement deals. These deals make money for everyone involved and last for years. We've done deals for big businesses right through to startups.

Tommy: I love—

Simon: I'm an M&A consultant from this. I'm an M&A consultant. I help businesses grow through acquisitions. Two, I specialise in mergers and acquisitions. I help companies to buy out a competitor without using any cash. Many of my clients have doubled their revenue in a single deal. So very clear.

Tommy: You understand what you get in that.

Simon: Yeah.

Tommy: As a comedian, how do you go about like—

Simon: How do I do it?

Tommy: Well, no, I mean, there's a part where having a, like being mates with a lot of people and being the person that people love. Would contribute highly to you getting jobs. You know, let's say that you're a baseline comedian. You're funny. Yeah, people think you're funny. You get laughs. You're also the guy that's loved. I think that comedian over the nailed sell that has an average, that has the same set, the person that's loved. So the person that is able to, I don't know, nurture relationships.

Josh: It depends on if it's corporate, like if you do, if it's a corporate client they're probably thinking, is he going to be— is he going to stay within the boundaries?

Simon: So yeah, so appropriate in the corporate world, it's like, are you clean? Are you going to get me in trouble? So the first thing you go, hey, I've done this so many times, I'm not going to get you in trouble. I'm going to get you, um, you know, people applauding and congratulating you for booking, booking me, right? So that's like the number one thing because it's always like, you know, a PA who's doing it, or some, some companies have like, you know, the, um, event organiser or whatever,, and they are under the pump. If they book a comedian, that's great because relatively cheap compared to like a dance crew or a band or a big, you know, celebrity illusionist or something like that, lots of props or whatever. So, comedian is like, great, on budget. But what's the risk factor? Are they going to get complaints like, I can't believe the comedian said this sort of stuff, it's so offensive. And that's happened. I've had before corporate gigs, people call me like, mate, I'm— I made— I'm under the pump, you know. Like a couple years ago, we had a comedian who was a bit misogynistic and like, you know, a lot of backlash. And mate, you know, my— this— my job rides on this. And don't book a comedian then. But, but I, I was like, mate, I've got this, right? I am clean and accessible and inoffensive, and you're gonna have a great time. And so that in the corporate world, yeah, that's, that's a big value. And so your brand recognition, like if you're on TV and radio a lot— on TV and radio you have to be clean generally.

Josh: Yeah.

Simon: So that's why they probably rely on those sort of people more. So yeah, brand recognition in that sense. If you've got a clean comedy brand, how well known is that? Um, that's important. But in terms of like the, the networking side of things. That's important because it's a very— I know it's unregulated in the sense of like being, you know, super funny as a comic doesn't necessarily guarantee you getting spots. Like, you've got to not be a dick to the room bookers or the TV people, and you've got to be good to work with. So I know there, there are comedians, you know, if I have a choice between two comics, one I know who's pretty funny, like, will do the job, but I can work with them really well, I'll pick that comic over someone who's super incredibly, like, brilliantly funny who I can't, you know, bring into an environment where there's networking and happening. And that's happened before. I've helped comedians who I think are so funny, like the funniest people I've ever seen. They're just so smart and unique and brilliant. And I've given them a gig. They've turned up late. They've offended the bar staff. They've, you know, you offend the bar staff by like demanding a free drink because you're a comic rather than asking, oh, hey, man, I'm new tonight. Nice to meet you. I'm Simon. How you going? How does it work here tonight?

Josh: Sure.

Simon: Is there a drink involved? Rather than like, I'm a comic, I'm meant to get a free drink. Oh, like stuff like that. So that dude might be hilarious on stage, but if you're not, if you're not going to play the game of normal society, you know what I mean? So that That is a factor for sure, like some, you know, some level of being likeable and accepted, um, because then you just won't get opportunities, um, in the long run. So there's comics who are way more talented than me and other comics I know, but just are not functional.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, there is probably a few of those that slip through and make the mega stardom that then there's Everyone always references them, right? Has overridden the other shit.

Simon: Yeah, I think they can have like, they can probably mitigate it enough in the beginning, you know, whatever, and just are nice to the people they need to be. And then when they get into stardom and they now they've got like, you know, people orbiting them, you know, to then sort of insulate them from having to be a decent person, you know, or look at the savagery of Ricky Gervais. Yeah.

Tommy: At the Golden Globes.

Simon: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Is he getting those jokes flagged or does he run those past or he just does it?

Simon: He apparently does. But they're like, we're not going to muzzle you. So it's really, it goes through lawyers. So they all go through lawyers. Yeah. So he goes, the lawyers just go, yeah, there's nothing libellous in here. That's all they care about. The Golden Globes don't want to be sued. So they go through lawyers. Is there anything we can be sued for? No. Then do that.

Tommy: Can Apple sue us for relating them to ISIS?

Simon: Like, oh yeah, well, no, it was the Chinese sweatshop.

Tommy: The extrapolation was Apple with their streaming service. If ISIS had a streaming service, people would be running to their agents to get them a deal with ISIS.

Simon: Yeah, but he's, he's in a position enough, like, he doesn't need Hollywood in that way.

Tommy: He doesn't care.

Simon: He makes these shows with Netflix. He praised Netflix because he's employed by them, but like, he doesn't, he doesn't mind. He can get his projects up and work with the people he wants to work with. Yeah, in his group. And then, yeah, he can make fun of those, those, those celebs who are in those positions of, of power and things like that. But yeah, I mean, even those people though, I mean, everyone's essentially working like on that Golden Globes. Scorsese's working at the table with Al Pacino and Pesci and De Niro. The people he's been working with for what, 50 years or whatever. And then Tarantino's at the table with DiCaprio, and I think Brad Pitt's— no, and Brad Pitt. So he's worked with those dudes before. It's just like, you find your people and you're good to the people around you, and that kind of— and, you know, you work on the projects that you, you, um, you know, want to work with, uh, want to work on. And yeah, don't do anything to Because I think it comes back to bite you eventually. Yeah, yeah. If you're, if you're alienating people and burning bridges, for sure.

Josh: Especially now with, uh, comedians. Obviously there's a lot of different formats, so there's that corporate stuff, there's the stand-up. You were doing The Sunday Experiment on the Hit Network.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: Uh, which was sort of like a radio, a radio format.

Simon: Yeah, radio gig. I really like that. Yeah.

Josh: How did you find that?

Simon: I liked being on air because it felt like a performance. Yeah, it was like, oh, this happened with my girlfriend today. Here's a— you know, it's, you know, in many ways it's getting my list of premises that I was looking at earlier, joke premises, and just getting to, to basically do them with one other person. So I enjoyed that performance element to it. Live radio is really enjoyable. The stuff around it can be difficult, like the meeting beforehand stressing out about, you know, the, the show and what to do and what not to do. And, and then afterwards, you know, feedback and all that sort of stuff. Like, the world around it can be very stressful.

Josh: Is it good stress or is it unnecessary?

Simon: Um, I don't want it in my life. Can I just turn up and do the performance bit?

Josh: And what do you think the answer is? Can you?

Simon: I think, I think I can. However, I feel like I can be consistently— Well, I think someone like Hughesy, for example, I think he certainly prepares, but he's so clear on what he is now. Like, he's so consistent. He's consistently funny. His point of view is clear that they know what they're getting with him. And so, I reckon—

Josh: But that only happens over time.

Simon: That happens over a long period of time. Yeah, totally. So to answer the question, at this stage they're probably like, oh, are you gonna be, you know, brand friendly? Are you gonna do anything that, you know, uh, upsets the network and whatever? And also I think producers want to have a hand. They want to put their fingerprints on you into some, some degree. Like, oh, I want to have a hand in moulding you into a perfect, you know, radio presenter.

Josh: So what sort of feedback would you get?

Simon: I didn't read it.

Josh: And do you think it was written? That was kind.

Simon: I got the emails.

Josh: And so from a feedback point of view, where do you— what is your relationship with— because I guess from a development point of view, feedback, and you're good at feedback in regards to is the audience laughing, listening, right? You are a good listener.

Simon: Well, if it's for an audience, I think what happens is when you get into other media forms, you're trying to please all these different groups. So first of all, trying to please an audience. Why? So they watch or they listen or they come to a show, because they're the lifeblood of what you do. Without an audience, there's nothing. So you— step one, you learn how to please an audience. Great. Now you do that, and now marketing gets involved. Well, we've got this sponsor and they don't want you to mention this, this, this, or this. So now you're trying to please an audience with all these caveats and you're like, okay, well, that's fine. You know, you could probably work it out. A lot of the time you can integrate things and, you know, you could do product placement and whatnot. And I think like Ellen DeGeneres is pretty good at working in something super funny with a brand in, and that's fine. That's problem solving. That's using creative thinking anyway. But then you've got like a producer who just has an opinion of like, well, I want it done this way. And then that's when you start to get tension. You're like, well, why? Yeah, because the audience doesn't want this and they don't want that. It's like, how do you know? You're not performing to them, you're not connecting with them, you don't know.

Josh: So are they good producers and bad producers?

Simon: Yeah, totally. Some good producers will give you a framework to create in.

Josh: What does that look like?

Simon: Um, so for example, like a, like a late night talk show or something like that, when you, when you want to go on that? They're like, well, it's got to be clean, and, um, uh, we want it to have, you know, 3 different bits in it so we can edit it for length. Because if you do one long routine, it makes it super hard for them to edit. So they'll give you something like that, and you're like, that's fine, I can do that. I can find 3 small routines that if you need to cut one of them for time or cut part of it for time, it's not going to ruin the set. I'll keep it clean so you don't get in trouble with the FCC or whatever. Fine. When there's, um, when they look at your set, they go, send me a tape and look at your set. They go, yeah, that won't, that won't work for our audience. And you go, what do you mean? I've been doing that bit across America for, you know, 7 years. It does work. I know it works. I've been in there with the crowds hearing them laugh. I've got audio recordings of them laughing. And then going, no, I just don't think our crowd will get it. Like, they will. I know they will because I've done it. I've done the testing. So when their opinion supersedes your evidence, that's a bad producer because they don't know. But I've got the evidence to prove that, you know, the bit works or the bit is palatable. So when they try to subjectively alter your piece of work, your stand-up or whatever the you know, art form is, that's a problem. When they're doing it based on, you know, legal requirements, like, we can't at this time slot swear— fine, totally fine.

Josh: What about co-hosts? So you've got like the producer side of things, and then when you're doing a show, you are co-creating with someone else. So it's like, uh, it's one of those things where it's like you're even— you're co-creating, I guess, with an audience as well, if you know, in a lot of ways. But if you've got someone that you're speaking to, their responses, where they go down, that— if, if you're thinking punchlines or a destination for a story, totally, how they railroad it.

Simon: Yeah, well, that's another factor. So that's, you know, that's another, um, I guess there's a bit of trial and error with that, like, you know, finding the good, you know, uh, someone, someone to work with. Like, um, Susie and Kate were like the perfect duo, I thought. And then Ed Cavill came on, I'm like, oh, they're perfect as well. I was like, oh, these people are just all just really good at listening to each other and giving each other— they're just sort of, you know, um, highly capable people.

Josh: So what— so if it's universal, if you can sort of there's some qualities that work well together. Is it listening? Is that what it is?

Simon: I think, yeah, I think listening is important and knowing when to— Yeah, listening, but also knowing what to do with that information, like knowing when to come in and knowing when to let someone go. I think that that's important. But I don't know a lot about radio because I'm pretty new to it. So, I'm enjoying it, but Yeah, just it— I just feel like sometimes a lot more layers are piled onto it than need to be there. If you— if it's, if it's about— if it's stand-up, it's me and the audience. That's all that matters, really. If it's radio, it's you and your co-host. That's all. If you guys are having a good time, then, then hopefully the show then will do well. And I think that happened with Joe and Limo on Gold. So there was this amazing period where— so they were, I think, number 2 or number 3 or something like that in the ratings. And because they had a producer who would, uh, produce, I think, a bit— I think there were just so many notes coming. There was, you know, all these, you know, notes coming. But the head of programming decided, I'm gonna ditch I'm going to ditch Joe and Lemo at the end of the year anyway, so I don't care. And the producer got fired. So, he's— So, the head of programme was like, well, I'm not going to hire another producer because I'm ditching them anyway. So, for 6 months they didn't have a producer and the show was so good because they got to do what they wanted and they didn't have all these intense, you know, notes and pressure from a producer. So, they became number 1 in those 6 months because the show was so good. That all they got to focus on doing was their, their chemistry and making a good show. So it's— it can be in like a— a producer can be suffocating when what they think they're doing is steering. So if you have a good producer that can encourage the— and affirm and reinforce the good things you're doing and can help you avoid the you know, shitty things you're doing, then that, then that's great. But if they're stifling, then, you know, it's better just not to have one.

Josh: So, uh, the Melbourne Comedy Festival starts— is it March or when does— or April? When does the Comedy Festival start? You should know.

Simon: Uh, yeah, end of March. So I'm— well, I'm about to go to Perth for Perth Fringe World and do first week of— first two weeks of Feb. Then I'm gonna do 5 weeks in Adelaide, so from Feb to March. And then end of March I'm gonna do Melbourne Comedy Festival, and then after that I got Sydney Comedy Festival. Back to America.

Tommy: Where do you live in these— but like Adelaide, where do you stay for 5 weeks?

Simon: Uh, I've got a friend in Adelaide that I stay with. Um, I've got a girlfriend in Melbourne that I live with, uh, that I stay with. She lets me stay with her.

Tommy: Perth, are you doing—

Simon: Perth, I just got a hotel. A hotel in Perth for 10 days.

Tommy: Yeah, right, hotel life for 10 days. Do you like that life? Do you like—

Simon: uh, I prefer living with my girlfriend. I like that.

Tommy: Because good answer.

Simon: Yeah, yes, her dad watches this show, by the way.

Josh: Oh really?

Simon: Yeah, so in Kentucky, because when, when we started, when we started dating, he would look up everything that I've been on online. So he'd seen the doco we made together, right? He'd watch this show because he brought something up at dinner. He's like, oh, that's like, in that daily talk show you mentioned this. I'm like, so, you know, shout out to all the Kentucky viewers.

Josh: There you go.

D: So good.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, I like travelling and seeing new things.

Tommy: Yeah.

Simon: But after a while, things can get mundane. So like, for example, I loved going to the UK last year, and I went to Ireland, and I started in Cork, the south of Ireland, did a gig. Next day, caught a train all the way up to the— to Northern Ireland and did a gig that night in Belfast. That was awesome. But if I had to do that, say, every 6 months, I'd be like, uh, gosh, work.

Josh: So you're going to be tired by the time you get to Melbourne?

Simon: I'll be fine because in Adelaide I just really look after myself, like lots of go to the gym, eat really well, do my shows.

Josh: Have you got it all dialled in? Like, you know where your gym's going to be, you know, the cafes and stuff you're going to go to?

Simon: I know my supermarket, everything. I've done it. Yeah, this would be my 10th year doing festivals. Wow. Yeah, so I've got it down. And I don't go party. Like, in fact, anything— Huzi and I will hang out because we don't drink. Yeah, so we'll go hang out and we'll have a nice dinner or something like that. We'll chat a bit, but then we're done. So when I first started doing festivals, I'd be like, oh, all the, all the partying's happening.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Simon: Oh, I'm up to 3 AM, you know, going to, you know, the festival club clubs and things like that. So I got it down to a science now. But the fun stuff for me is, you know, travelling with my girlfriend and playing ball games with people and reading about how to build your business. Yeah, for you, pitching hard.

Josh: Um, our, our mate, uh, Dr. Jason Fox was talking about Dungeons and Dragons.

Simon: Oh, love that game.

Josh: Uh, what's— if we want to get into it, what's the deal?

Tommy: Speak for yourself.

Josh: Um, you don't want to get into it?

Simon: Are you going to get into it? Um, you can buy the books, buy the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Josh: Yeah, can I get that on World of Books? No, Seven, can you look it up? I want to get a really nice secondhand one. Yeah, what's it called?

Simon: The Dungeon Master's Guide and the Player's Handbook. You've got to read those two, or you could find a dungeon master like me.

Josh: Like, you are a dungeon master?

Simon: I can do it. But, um, I've written scenarios and things like that. Yeah, I really enjoy it. Um, yeah, I've played it a lot actually.

Josh: But, uh, how many times have you been a master?

Simon: Ah, dozens, I guess. Yeah, lots of sessions. So when I traveled— is one of the things I did when I traveled— I'd go into a town, just say I'm in Brisbane for a week, I'd set up a game of Dungeons and Dragons at the local board game store, and people who'd never played before could come and play.

Josh: So what do you wear?

Simon: Just my normal clothes. Yeah, it's not that. It's just, it's, I guess it's like you can't get dressed up. You can if you want to. Yeah, you can do whatever you do.

Josh: However, Dungeons and Dragons master would be dressed up.

Simon: It's just, it's storytelling. It's really, it's kind of like improv and storytelling. And so, you know, the dice determines whether you're successful at something. So, um, do you know much about it at all?

Josh: Nothing. No.

Simon: Okay, so you create a character Uh, based on the Lord of the Rings world, basically.

Josh: So I have to watch Lord of the Rings? I haven't watched it yet.

Simon: Um, but it's that world, you know, like dwarves and elves and wizards and warriors and paladins and things like that.

Josh: So I need to know if I was— I guess the manual, the handbook. How much is the handbook going for?

D: $46 on World of Books or Amazon for $32.

Josh: Really? World of Books, what are you guys doing? There's plus 10% too, hey?

Tommy: I'd go World of Books for sure.

Josh: What, just because of the—

Tommy: Joking.

Simon: Dumb move.

Josh: So, but 97 was pointing out because World of Books is secondhand books that you can buy online. You get secondhand for more expensive.

D: You can get used on Amazon for $30.

Josh: Oh, what about the new ones? I guess we don't know.

D: Brand new is $32.

Josh: How many pages?

D: Is the book?

Simon: Yes, 200 and something.

Tommy: No, there is such good condition because people read them and thought, I'm not doing this.

Josh: I'm just imagining like really, I want to get one that's got some history to it.

Simon: Yeah, right.

Josh: So I—

Simon: law.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So I bought, um, the Judd Apatow book Sick in the Head, uh, on World of Books, and it was a, um, like a pre-release copy. They're just like, obviously it made its way around, it was cool. So it's like a real thick version because it's like got heaps of like padding and stuff.

Simon: I don't know if D&D is your game. So board game world is so huge, there's so many wonderful titles.

Josh: Why isn't that— why?

Simon: I think a strategy game you'd like. Have you played Pandemic?

Josh: Is that the, the one with the rice? Oh, sorry, the, the hay?

Simon: No, Pandemic— no, that's, um, uh, oh, now I've drawn a blank. Um, Catan, I think. I think Pandemic potentially Pandemic is a strategy game. It's cooperative. So, you're all on the same team and then a disease breaks out around the world or diseases break out around the world and you've got to go around curing the diseases. So, you're working together. So, he's like, all right, dude, if you go to Hong Kong, then I'm going to go to Los Angeles and I'll cure a thing there. That's a good one. I think you'd like that because I think you like strategy and discussion.

Josh: You can dress up in that on our show.

Simon: Yeah, you can dress. You have have to dress up as a naughty nurse.

Tommy: Naughty nurse.

Josh: I'll do that. So, the D&D— back on the D&D thing, so we pick either like a dwarf, a wizard, and you give it a name.

Simon: Like, last time I played, I created a dwarf character that sounds like my Nonna. So, it's like, you know, they're like, all right, the dragon's coming, what do you do? I'm like, I make a pizza. I make a pizza for everyone so we have a full stomach before we go into battle.

Josh: Is there a lot of etiquette? Like, can you get real annoying with D&D?

Simon: Yeah, there's a lot of— Imagine there's etiquette for sure. Yeah.

Josh: What's some of the etiquette?

Simon: The etiquette is, uh, not talking over people, letting people play their turn out. Because if, you know, you're a character— Have you seen Lord of the Rings?

Tommy: Yes.

D: Yeah.

Simon: So just say you're playing an elf like Legolas or whatever, you're an archer, and there's, you know, I know there's a creature that you want to kill, like a vampire or whatever.

Josh: Um, and so would I need to know that a dwarf can kill a vampire?

Simon: Yeah, like, sure, surely in the game, like, yeah, I guess the Dungeon Master, like, if the vampire's there, or maybe it's just like a, um, uh, uh, a werewolf or whatever it is.

Josh: So I mean, like, he's not killing a werewolf.

Tommy: No, you could be with an arrow.

Simon: Yeah, if you've got silver arrows, you know what I mean? Like, there's lore, there's lore with arrows. Well, then you've got to go on an adventure to work it out. So you've got to use the characters in the game. So you're in a bar, all right? You're in a, you're in a tavern. You're, you're, uh, what creature do you want to be? Happy with an elf archer?

Tommy: I'm happy with it.

Josh: I want to be a werewolf.

Simon: You want to be a werewolf character? You can be a werewolf character. So what are you in your human form?

Josh: Um, a human form, what is that?

Simon: Yeah, so you got a human— are you in human form? Are you just like a man, a guy during the day?

Josh: You're like, why do I need that?

D: Because you become a werewolf at night.

Tommy: That's— yeah, werewolves aren't just werewolves all day.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Elf all day.

Simon: No, no, yeah, let's give you— wait, no, so we can give you a race. You can be human, you can be a dwarf, you can be an elf.

Josh: To be fair, you could be—

Tommy: do an elf.

D: Ah, human.

Tommy: Elf's funny.

Simon: Dwarfs aren't human. Yeah, yeah, you can be— you can both be elves.

Josh: A gnome? Yeah, that's cool, but then it turns annoying.

Simon: You could turn into a halfling, which is a hobbit.

D: Can he be Gandalf? Just a wizard?

Simon: Yeah, you could be a human wizard.

Josh: Okay, no, I know what I'll do. Can I be a wizard and then a werewolf at night?

Simon: Yeah, you can be a werewolf when that's a full moon.

Josh: Right. And so you would— so anyone could declare a full moon?

Simon: Uh, no, I'm the dungeon master, so I would determine what's happening in the world. I create the world, so I'm like the— yeah, so I'm like the computer. I'm the computer game and I dictate. So you, um, so what am I?

Josh: So I'm a werewolf at night and a wizard during during the day. Cool.

Simon: Okay, so you're a wizard human, all right? And we've discussed beforehand that you want to be, you know, your werewolf, whatever. And you get to decide your backstory. Are you looking for a cure? Are you happy to be a werewolf? Are you on a path of vengeance? Not yet. I just— this is, this is before the game. You create your character and your motivation for the character. So you're a wizard who has a backstory that you get to decide. Uh, when I was a kid, I was bitten by a werewolf, so I became a wizard so that one day I can maybe be able to use magic cure myself.

Josh: And so how long do we each have to describe that story?

Simon: As long as you want. We have a session that can go like 5 hours or whatever, you know, like however long a session.

Josh: And so is there etiquette around length?

Simon: Um, I mean, don't take the piss, but just have fun.

Tommy: Sev's longest D&D game ever. Yeah, yeah. So like longest—

Simon: it takes— yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do multiple sessions because you level up, your characters level up. So you're an archer, you're a human archer. Maybe, you know, whatever you decide your backstory is, like maybe you're, you know, evil and you just want heaps of money, like you're on adventures to get money. Or maybe your, you know, wife's been captured and trying to get her back, or whatever it is, you come up with your backstory.

Tommy: I'm angry at the world. You might find me trying to get donuts, just getting angry.

Simon: Great, perfect. So hangry, on the hunt for donuts.

Josh: And so I'm a I'm only a werewolf when it's, um, when the moon's up.

Simon: Yes.

Josh: And also, uh, when I'm a werewolf, I, um, I become very good at using guns.

Simon: Great.

Josh: Sniper.

Simon: Well, there's no guns in the game I'm creating. There could be. So I think so.

Josh: So you would—

Simon: would I be able to do that, or you would say we would discuss beforehand? So this character creation is step one, then we start the game.

D: You need to watch Lord of the Rings, Josh.

Tommy: And you know what a werewolf is? It's a big dog. It's a big wolf.

Josh: Yeah, but like, I can't use guns. But a wild one.

Tommy: Can't use guns.

Josh: But it's all magic.

D: You're better off with Gandalf.

Josh: Yes. Gandalf, isn't he from Harry Potter?

Simon: No, no, he's from— Gandalf is from Lord of the Rings.

Josh: Who's the big bearded guy in Harry Potter?

Simon: Dumbledore.

Josh: Dumbledore.

Simon: Different actor.

Josh: I can't be him, though.

Simon: Yeah. So, okay, you're a wizard and you've got this thing, you're a werewolf and we're in a tavern.

Josh: So, how did he— How did Tommy get to pick about the donuts?

Simon: He just gets to do that. It's—

Josh: and so I bring up the gun thing.

Tommy: He gave you the opportunity.

Simon: Well, in the world, in this current world, we can have guns, we can have muskets if we want, but I would play it in terms of it's like a Lord of the Rings world where it's, uh, you know, wizards and, uh, swords and axes and archers and things like that. So it's a mediaeval world.

Josh: Okay, sure.

Simon: You've seen, um, Game of Thrones? No, haven't I haven't seen Game of Thrones. So this world that D&D is set in is set in these mediaeval fantasy worlds. So they tend not to have guns.

Josh: Could I— Okay, could I say that I've got the hardest armour in the world?

Simon: No, you have to buy armor. So you might start the game with a certain amount of money, gold, or certain, um, like it's— You're all level 1 characters to begin with, so you've got restrictions on that.

Tommy: It's really quite easy, Josh.

Simon: Yeah, but so we're—

Josh: I just don't understand the doughnut thing.

D: I don't understand.

Simon: The doughnut thing is just like personal life.

Josh: I'm just making shit up and then all of a sudden you have to make up my life.

Simon: No, there's personal affectations, right?

Tommy: I haven't said I want to machine gun.

Simon: Your motivation, you could say, I'm on the hunt to get vengeance for the guy who killed my father. I really enjoy eating mutton chops. But if you go, I have the strongest armour in the world, it's like, well, no, that affects the mechanics of the game now.

Tommy: And so I'm hungry and I'm looking for the best donut.

Josh: So Tommy was okay because he didn't say he— if he said, I have a bag of donuts, you'd say no.

Simon: We could discuss beforehand. I might say, no, uh, you're allowed to start— in the book, in the hand guide, you're allowed to start with certain rations. So if you, if you're allowed to start with certain rations, you go, yeah, I've decided they're donuts. I'm like, that's, that's okay, that's fine. Um, but if you say, yeah, I have a bazooka, you're like, well, no, that's not the— what we're playing, mediaeval world.

Josh: So you're talking about stage 1.

Simon: Stage 1 is character creation, and so you can decide based on the player handbook how much, how many things you're allowed to have. If he says, I have a truck full of donuts, I'd be like, no, you can't have that. You're allowed 3 days worth of rations in what, according to the handbook, or whatever.

Josh: And so is there a bit of a sense on the first stage of character building that everyone's trying to want— so the reason I picked the strongest armour is because I'm like, well, now I'm invincible.

Tommy: No, but you haven't read them.

Simon: You can't do that. So the rule book, uh, allows restrictions on what armour you can get.

Tommy: If you read the book you bought off Amazon.

Simon: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: Does everyone read the book, or I was— everyone needs to read the master—

Simon: no, everyone reads the player's handbook. Okay.

Josh: Yes. And that's standard across everyone?

Simon: Yeah, yeah. So you read the player's handbook.

Josh: How many money did you say?

D: Uh, it was about 330, I think.

Simon: Oh, there you go. But you've got to read it and know in character creation, it's like, well, you have certain stats as well, so your character might be good at athletics, right? So you get to decide, you roll the dice, it determines how many points you get.

Josh: I'm understanding this in a big way. So it means that the—

Simon: there are restrictions to your character creation.

Josh: So I can say a wizard can cast spells, and so I get the spells based on level 1, and though that is in the handbook, that is in the hand.

D: So there's a spell list.

Simon: Yeah.

Josh: So I could go through, I can learn all these level 1 wizard spells.

Simon: Dungeons and Dragons, and I think he's allowed to have 4 or 5 or something to begin with, um, or maybe 6 or something.

Josh: But so the doughnut thing's stupid though, because medieval, they wouldn't have had donuts.

Tommy: It's—

Simon: but we can, we can, you know, play modification. Yeah, I can give you guns if you want, you know, but it's, it's a modification.

Josh: Would you have to say if there's guns?

Tommy: How annoying would doing this with him be? Real fucking—

Simon: no, he needs to read the book. How many?

D: So there's, there's a lot of them. The first level.

Simon: Yeah, uh, there's cantrips and there's level 1. Is it—

D: is there, uh, I'm just on wizard spells level. Oh yeah, cantrips. Do you want level 0?

Simon: Give me— yeah, give me cantrips because cantrips are spells. So this is another rule: cantrips are spells you can cast as many times as you want with no restrictions. Level 1, you can only cast them a certain amount of times before wasting. What are the cantrips? Give me some cantrips.

D: So you can have an Acid Splash.

Simon: Yeah. So, you can— So, just say we're in a scenario, right? You're in a tavern and it's daytime and you're having some beers and you're talking about— You're talking about doughnuts and you're talking about, you know, trying to find a cure for yourself. And then all of a sudden, a goblin breaks in and start— And with knives and is approaching the barman screaming and wailing.

Josh: Who's saying that?

Simon: You can cut. Me. I'm the dungeon master.

Josh: So, you're the master.

Simon: I'm creating the world.

Josh: So, you—

Simon: I'm the computer.

Josh: So, you create the scene.

Simon: So you're saying the goblin comes in, he's got knives in his hand, and he starts racing towards the barman. Uh, what do you guys do?

Josh: And then it goes around in a circle?

Simon: No, you guys can, um, in this, in this circumstance— oh, actually it does. Yeah, so we would roll initiation. You'd roll the dice, and whoever rolls the, um, the, the, uh, higher number— so if you roll 1 and you roll a 5, well then you're going first because you're initially lower number. Yeah, yeah. So your initiative is higher in this circumstance. So you want—

Tommy: is 11, isn't it? Oh no, that's another—

Simon: no, 1 to 20. The rice is the dice. The dice is 1 to— die is 1 to 20. So you've rolled a 1 and you've rolled a, uh, 5 or whatever, and the goblin's rolled an 8. So you get to go first. So what do you do?

Josh: I won't get bogged down in his name.

Simon: You have Acid Splash, that's one of your spells. You've also—

D: you've also chosen a weapon, good ones. You've also got Firebolt. You got Firebolt, uh, Poison Spray, Ray of Frost.

Simon: Yeah.

D: And a True Strike.

Josh: Okay, Ray of Frost.

Simon: Okay, can you read Ray of Frost for me?

Josh: And so I'm gonna freeze the goblin.

Simon: Yeah, okay, so we'll see what the spell actually does.

D: A beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range.

Simon: Yep.

Josh: Uh, because you say the goblin wasn't in range.

Simon: Uh, no, it's, it's— you can ask me. Honestly, in the game you go, is he within range, or how far away? I'm like 3 feet or whatever. So I think that's 100 or 60 feet or something is the range for a goblin.

D: Yeah, 60 feet.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And so you say he's been frozen?

Simon: Uh, no, what it— read the effect of the spell.

D: On a hit, it takes 1d8 cold damage.

Simon: Okay, 1d8 cold damage.

D: Um, so yeah, speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Simon: Oh, that's good. So it slows it down.

Josh: So that was done well.

Simon: That was a really good roll. That was a really good thing. So, um, we're gonna— you're gonna roll a d8. Um, I'll do it online. D8 roll. Yeah, Google has it. Oh, I need a 4 and a 3. No, 1, 1, a 4. So you rolled a 4. Oh no, we'll take this one. The 6. You roll the 6 on a d8. So I have all these stats on a goblin. A goblin will have maybe 8 health or something like that, like 8, uh, hit points. Like a video game.

Josh: So he's only got 2 left.

Simon: He's only got 2 left. Yeah, but you won't know that, right? I'll know that as a dungeon master. I'll have a— I'll have the stats behind the shield and behind like a little, you know, um, cardboard protector, and I'll know the goblin. I'll be able to say, oh, the goblin is looking really bad. Like, he looks like he's about to die.

Josh: And so is the goblin playing?

Simon: The goblin is playing. Yeah, he's, he's— No, he's me. So, the Dungeon Master—

Josh: How many characters do you own?

Simon: Everything. Everything else other than what you guys play.

Josh: Okay. And you would add a character—

Simon: They're called NPCs, non-playable characters. NPCs.

Josh: I've heard of NPCs.

Simon: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: But he talks about it in terms of we're all NPCs.

Tommy: In the real world.

Josh: Yeah. He thinks I'm an NPC.

Simon: You've got— let's say you're part of them, you've got a bow, uh, an arrow which is d8, and let's say it's d8 plus 2, right? So you can attack. And you've got some knives which are d6 plus 2, whatever, um, plus 2 points. So what do you want to attack the goblin? It's your turn. Do you want to do something else in the environment? There's a chandelier above, there's some bottles on the bar, and there's beer still full You can do anything you want within the restrictions of the world. You can just, you know, pull out a knife and attack him. You get beer thrown on the ground to try and make him slip.

Tommy: As if I should know the 2 points. Like, if I knife him, he's dead because he only had 2 points.

Simon: But you don't know the points, but you can— I'm telling you what I'm doing as a dungeon master. I've got a point system, so when something happens, I know determined.

Josh: And if Tommy kills—

Tommy: if I knife him, he's frozen. He's a bit frozen.

Josh: It's slower.

Simon: He's not frozen, he slowed down.

Tommy: Yeah, he slowed down. Yeah, getting close. He had knives, so if I try to knife him and he knives me back— Yeah, what about if I threw some acid?

Josh: It will speed it up.

D: Can you throw acid?

Simon: No. So you're— I don't know what class you are because there's different classes. So there are wizards, there are, um, sorcerers, there are, uh, fighters, there are, um Uh, Druid, Barbarian. Yeah, Druid, Barbarian, Rangers.

Tommy: Yeah, but you don't like non-fiction. Actually, you don't like fiction.

Simon: So you hate that shit.

D: Yeah.

Simon: So anyway, this is— that's a— that's a, uh, let's just say you're like Legolas, like you're an archer, you're a Ranger, right? So you're— yeah, essentially someone who, you know, is in, uh, the forest a lot and works with animals. And you've probably got— you might even have a pet with you. Let's just say you wanted a pet. Beforehand. I think in the rulebook you're allowed a pet, a familiar. Um, so you could say, yeah, I have a trusty dog with me, or whatever, or I have a bird that's on my shoulder, or whatever, and you could get the bird to do things.

Josh: So can I say, it goes dark, there's a moon, I'm a werewolf?

Simon: No, you can't do that because I'm creating the world you're playing.

Tommy: We get you back on after Josh has read 300+ pages.

Simon: No, but it's like, imagine you're playing a video game.

Josh: Yeah, you don't control the world.

Simon: You don't control the world, but I know the way the video game—

Tommy: yeah, exactly.

Simon: So you go—

D: but did you—

Simon: you can buy certain weapons.

Josh: Could I ask, is it nighttime?

Simon: No, I, uh, I said it was daytime.

Josh: You've already said it.

Simon: But yeah, it's daytime. But let's, let's finish this, this, this storey out. Um, so yeah, the goblin has now just been attacked. He's slowed down. He's pretty shocked.

Tommy: I'm gonna shoot an arrow because I've got, I'm an archer.

Simon: Great. So you shoot an arrow at him. Um, I want you to roll, I think, a d— let's say d6 plus 2.

Tommy: So he's pulling up a, by the way, app or something on Google.

Simon: Yeah, so Google. So you can roll. So just press roll. Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah, he's gonna press that one. You've rolled, uh, 3. Oh, actually no, I have to— I fucked this up. You have to roll d20 first. So d20 determines whether your attack hits or not. Um, that's something I forgot. If anyone's a lot of time for people that would—

Tommy: even you understanding this shit.

Simon: No, it's because I guess I'm like on the spot and having to, uh having to do it, um, if you're a master, that's— yeah, exactly. No, I'm having to do it without the dice and without the process, so I'm trying to like explain the game. So d20 determines whether your attack hits or not, and then you roll for damage afterwards. So let's just say you roll d20 and you hit. Yeah, um, so I didn't do it for damage and you rolled 6 and you— no, you didn't. I think some spells you don't have to I'm not sure if that one— yeah, I think you do. But, um, you roll d20. Yes, you hit, because sometimes you miss. You go, nah, you miss him, the arrow flies off and it smashes through the window and kills someone outside. Damn it. Um, no, you hit, you kill him, he dies. The bar guy says, oh guys, that was the best! Thanks for saving my bar. Goblins have been so bad. In fact, there's a camp of them outside. Um, here's 10 gold each for killing that goblin. There's another 500 gold from the town if you guys go kill the goblins. You go, great, you can accept that mission. You go, as a team, not killing anymore. Yeah, as a team, it's better to stick together.

D: Yeah.

Simon: And so now you either go on the adventure to kill the goblins, or you go, nah, we're gonna stay in town drinking, or nah, I need to find a cure, I'm going to try find a mage in the town. So it's story, it's world building. You need to know the rules. Josh, you need to know, you need to roll the dice. Nice. Anyway, I want to play.

Josh: I'm surprised. That's where I've seen movies.

Simon: Before I started half-assed explaining this, I said I don't think this is the game for you.

Josh: I think improv, I think I want to get into.

Simon: Yeah, right.

D: There's a game that's been going for 35 years.

Simon: I don't think it's non-stop though.

D: No, no, no, it's not. It's not non-stop.

Simon: They've only—

D: the maximum amount of time that they haven't played a D&D session is 3 weeks.

Simon: That's pretty good.

D: So over the 35 years, I'll sit down and do sessions, but it's just—

Josh: wouldn't it be great to get them on the show? Whereabouts do they live?

Simon: Probably American.

Josh: Yeah, they probably don't come out of their house, but that'd be easy, we can go to them anyway.

Simon: Oh man, I feel so overwhelmed having to do a crash course in D&D in something so nuanced. And it is very new to one person who one person who doesn't like that world and one person who had no interest.

Josh: This is such a difficult show for me. Uh, Simon Taylor Funny Boy.

Simon: Oh boy, don't come. Um, yeah, no, it's, uh, soon, starting Feb.

Josh: Can people get tickets yet?

Simon: Yeah, yeah, simontaylorfunnyboy.com on my website. There was no one D&D in the show.

Josh: All right, well, maybe we can do it get you back and do a proper game? Oh, we could live stream.

Tommy: Absolutely not.

Josh: If I read the book, to be honest, he doesn't want to play.

Simon: You don't want to?

Tommy: You guys can play it.

Josh: Would you play, Seb?

D: Uh, how long does a session last?

Simon: It is a lot of time. Listen, if you're not super enthusiastic to play D&D and not enthusiastic to read the book and learn the rules, then watch, watch Lord of the Rings, Josh, and then—

Josh: No.

Tommy: What about, um, what's easier than reading them?

Josh: What's the, what's the one What's the, um, the, the disease book?

Simon: The Pandemic.

Josh: Pandemic.

Simon: Yeah, that's fun.

Josh: I've heard of Pandemic.

Simon: I think that makes a cooperative game.

Josh: Can you look that up? I'm gonna buy the board game. All right, it's a Daily Talk Show. Uh, thank you, Simon Taylor.

Tommy: Thanks, bro.

Josh: If you enjoy the show, leave us a podcast review. Hype the Daily Talk Show.

Simon: Please don't tell me I messed up rules in D&D.

Josh: Oh yeah, please do. Yeah, email us.

Simon: I know I missed a whole bunch of stuff. It was so hard to—

Josh: there's a lot of pressure.

Simon: I can—

Tommy: you Well, thanks.

Josh: I mean, we don't know.

Simon: Yeah, so that's why I should have just said it's a role-playing game, Josh, read the book. That's what should have happened today instead.

Josh: 15 minutes. All right, was that all it was? All right, see you tomorrow, guys.

Simon: Thanks.