Jeremy Carne On Being In Love With The Process

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 558.

Tommy: Our brother from another mother. Welcome, Jez.

Josh: You can clap.

Tommy: We like clapping, just lifts that energy. It's not normal, but it feels normal. It feels right, doesn't it?

Jeremy: I was kind of clapping— there is an appreciative clap.

Josh: I know, I think that there's a huge amount of confidence to be able to clap, especially because sometimes in a group setting they might be like, oh, we want to thank everyone, Tommy and Jez, for being here. Like, you should—

Tommy: it's a good opportunity when someone When someone walks in the room, it's nice to just clap. It just changes everything.

Josh: Oh, definitely.

Jeremy: How are you? I'm well, I'm all right, thanks. Yeah, I'm cruising. I'm slow. Slow.

Tommy: Is that good? Is that good or bad?

Jeremy: Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. Um, yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Do you think if you were the other way, you'd say it like, I'm fast? Like, I'm— how you going?

Josh: Yeah, fucking real good. I reckon probably you're pushing back on the whole busy thing, right? It's like we always want to say we're doing something and everything's happening where it's like It's also okay just to like be slow and not have much— like just be, you know, taking things in.

Tommy: So what is it? What's the— what was the opposite of slow for you?

Jeremy: Consistent, not turning my brain off, always wanted to do something. And at the end of last year, to go straight into this, straight into— I had a pretty bad panic attack. And then I had to just— I realised that was seeded in being like feeling like I'm not good enough unless I'm contributing a thing. And so I stopped contributing things to like tell my brain that I'm okay not to.

Josh: Yeah, so you and I, uh, first became friends, it would have been like 2012, uh, we're working at the same radio station. And then funnily enough, I think it was 4 years ago that we went around the city. It was like this time 4 years ago that we went around the city filming a video around like how we can help, how you could help people.

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, I watched that on YouTube. And then it's— you went into a CPR Course. Yeah, yeah, that was good.

Jeremy: Yeah, that was a great idea.

Tommy: You're making, making, making. Yeah, but I mean, it's a content contribution.

Josh: But I think that's the whole thing, right? I think Jez, uh, Jez and I have always been on that path of, uh, wanting to self-develop, wanting to create, wanting to understand what the next thing is.

Tommy: I'll take it back. How many years— when did you have, um, remember when you came to my personal training studio? Yeah, yeah, this is like before I even knew what live was, and you were doing live This is on radio, doing a live show.

Jeremy: Oh no, no one's watching. No one's watching.

Tommy: What was that?

Jeremy: Zany Wayne's World-y kind of internet show.

Tommy: And, um, I had no understanding of what was going on, but we had fun.

Jeremy: It was really fun.

Tommy: And we couldn't do it because we wanted to do it from the personal training studio. Yeah, but back then the internet, like, um, Wi-Fi was so shit and we couldn't run the cord long enough.

Josh: So he's always doing it, isn't it? But like, the amount of things that haven't been recorded because the cord's not long enough.

Jeremy: Yeah, dude, it's the wrong adapter.

Tommy: I mean, you've been creating for a long time, so it—

Jeremy: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's time to be slow. You've done enough.

Jeremy: I know, it's like, it's— it is like not— I don't feel like there's enough encouragement in, in culture, in our culture, that perpetuates mindfulness or like slowing down. I feel like— or at least I feel like I've always been in— I've always been encouraged to do more and do more, more, more, more, more. And then, yeah, I think it's just a very, very— I found, I found it very, very challenging to do little.

Josh: Is it a safety mechanism? Because I guess like doing more means that you can pay rent, and so whenever we think of slow, we think of not being able to pay rent, not being able to honour our commitments.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. That's a definite contributing factor.

Josh: Was it something that you considered? Like, did you just have to create a scenario where it's like those things are off the table, so you could create the level of safety so you don't— didn't need to find that moment of panic every month trying to make ends meet.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I feel like I've been really lucky with my work, so I don't have to, um, do worry about that. But, um, but yeah, so I feel very privileged to be in a position where I don't need to— I can— I'm still doing work, but it's not a hectic amount of work.

Josh: Yeah.

Jeremy: Um, Anyway, but yeah, it's really— it's— it was a very— it was much harder than I expected it to be.

Tommy: Was, um, so the contributing to the world through content— what— I know you've, you've had a job for significant amount of time with Hamish and Andy's, the content producer, online content producer. Uh, what connection is money to the creation and, and putting out into the world?

Jeremy: What do you mean?

Tommy: So for instance, you've got a job, so you could say like most people create now, they put irons in the fire, they're putting out content to land something, to create money from this thing, right? So you go, I make, make, make to make, to make over here, money, money, money. Whereas you've had a job, so where you were making money, so what was it linked to money, the creating and putting out into the world, or was it those side hustle type of things?

Jeremy: Yeah, it's more side hustle stuff. Yeah, so it's like, um, like making a, producing an album or, um doing like a rap record or, um, doing a live, live internet show or doing a band or, um, a podcast. And I think I just— I've always— I always— I just love that thing. I think since I was like 13, 14 when I did my first band as a punk band in the UK, and it's, you know, I was just at the enthusiasm to create the website and HTML code at GeoCities. Like, this is like nearly 20 years ago, and It was, it was that kind of— that's what I love about the internet, I think, is that you can do anything and no one's red taping it.

Josh: Yeah.

Jeremy: Um, so I think I've always had that thing, but I jump from project to project so much that they— none of them really have enough time to fly. So Hey Machine Annie work has been my longest consistency. We've been with them nearly 12 years now. Um, and that, I think that's the— I think that's the area that I'm obviously strongest in is producing comedy or short videos.

Josh: What have you learned about consistency working on H&A?

Jeremy: Um, that you— like, the good work is simple. Like, when you say how to do a good thing, it's such a simple thing. Like, the nuances of, like, times and beats in a narrative. You guys know about this, like, with video editing. Um, initially, like, it takes so much trial and error and things to fall over before you realise how to make things work in terms of telling a storey in a video. Um, and I think the longer you do it, the simpler you realise it is. And so sometimes when like you've got an intern or someone you're working with and you educate or you're telling them like, this is how I do it, might not be the right way, but this is what I learned, it off— you often feel like, fuck, I've done a lot of work for not really much knowledge. Yeah, it doesn't feel like much knowledge, but it, but it's potent and it's, um Yeah, what's that second simplicity, uh, idea?

Josh: We've got, um, Dr. Jason Fox who's coming on the show, um, uh, New Year's Eve. Is he coming on? And, uh, he talks about something called second simplicity, which is basically you have things that are simple and then you have complexity, so things are like really hard, and then you have second simplicity, which is doing all of this work, all this complex work, fucking up and trying all these different things to arrive at what the answer is, which is still very simple. I guess it's that point of like understanding storey beats, understanding how those things work.

Jeremy: Yeah, you have to saturate the doors, like, but, um, try everything to really be convicted. It's all research, and it's like, that's what life is, just continual research. Um, what, what are your boys' biggest learnings from doing this podcast? Or like, what's— what, what have you— what, like characteristics of producing this show, like, stuck the most?

Tommy: In terms of the consistency thing, uh, how we feel about it isn't necessarily how it's being perceived. So you could feel like it wasn't great. So when it maybe related to feedback, it's not necessarily how it's perceived by an audience or someone who is a fan of the show or someone who comes into contact with it.

Jeremy: Because everyone's in a slightly different headspace and taking something different out that you didn't see or something.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. And so you know, idea— a good idea is that whole concept is subjective because someone will interpret as good and someone interpreters no good for them. And so when it comes to feedback, when it comes to how you feel about what you're doing, and so it will ebb and flow. So it's not necessarily going to feel great all the time. And so you're in the game of riding through it being great, it being high and everywhere in between.

Josh: It almost feels like we've done 558 drafts. So I think that whenever you're trying to work with this idea that you're working on this complete final piece, that's where it becomes a problem. And so by saying we've committed to doing the show for 10 years, by doing 10 years, we've got heaps and heaps of draughts that we can work on. I think that that's probably a mechanism to make sure that we don't suffer from perfectionism. Great. We don't, we don't even suffer from the potential hype that can come around things. So it's like if you're just doing a draft, someone's feedback you're okay with because you know that it's in draught form. Whereas when you show an edit to someone and you have said in your mind, this is the final version, this is it, it always is a little bit more painful getting feedback. And so I think even with that within our client, side of our business, what we do is bring people in earlier into the process and we show them the, the process and the iterative approach to it. And what that means is they can then have a hand in creating it rather than it just being this thing that we show at the end and then have to unwork a bunch of stuff.

Jeremy: That's a really strong learning, I reckon, because it's like the biggest trip up with any creating anything is that um, perfectionist thing is the whole 80/20 principle, isn't it? Like, it takes you the shortest period to get it to 80% of an idea, and that 20% refinement takes a fucking waste of time. Yeah.

Josh: Oh yeah, I think you and I both love the launch phase of anything, right? It's that idea of like having the Instagram account, having the domain name, having the logo, and so feels complete. Yeah. And so, so part of, I guess, with the daily talk show it was also about not adding too many other brands and things to it.

Jeremy: So let it build slowly over time.

Josh: Exactly. So I think that you could easily say, ah, be a network, do heaps of things, have heaps of shows. And that's like what my natural sort of inclination is, is to like add more. And so if you take that off the table and say, I'm only going to add to the daily talk show and we're only focusing on this brand and we're not getting excited about the shiny object outside, what are the shiny objects inside that are all adding to the same thing?

Tommy: I mean, the hack, I mean, the hack might— using the term hack might infer that it's a quick way to success or something, but the hack really is doing it every day. Like, I think about if I did something when I was young every day, you do— it's like it gets overlooked because everything is so shiny and maybe everyone thinks that they're going to be the, the success storey where it does just pop. But that's the unicorn these days. It's the Tom Cruise of the internet, right? Tom Cruise. There's very few people that will ever be as famous as him. And so for, for online, the success that we look to in other people is so far from the reality. The percentage of us being able to attain success of a Logan Paul for 99.999% of the world is, yeah, it's not going to happen. And so that's where it is. It's so easy to look left and right, but if you can stay focused, the hack is just stick at whatever it is consistently.

Jeremy: Yeah, I love that. It's— I mean, Ryan, my friend, we're talking about this the other day, and like, if you're in love with the process, you're invincible. Because it's only when you're in love with the outcome that— I mean, it's such a waste of time if you look in lineal time. Like, the outcome is like a second if you— once you publish it or whatever, and the process may be like, you know, hours and hours. So if you have that love of the process, then— I mean, I'm speaking to the Convert, I'm sure you know that, but like, that's one thing that I've— I, I love is like, and then it never feels like you need to attain— like, you do— you, you— and I think to be in love with the process, I find you need to be in love with the purpose of it. Because if you're doing it for just a feeling of giving someone a sense of joy or liberation of thinking or whatever, or make them like crack open their brain a little bit or just make them giggle, that's a— that feeling of contribution makes you happy, doesn't it?

Tommy: What is it? What's something you've stuck to personally that you're proud of in terms of— just, it could be, uh, work or personal, maybe outside of work, just personal. Is there anything?

Jeremy: Um, I think meditating every day for like 8 years.

Tommy: That's fucking solid.

Jeremy: I think that— and then for 6 of those years it was twice a day. That, that kind of really That consistency gave me a lot of grounding and ability to witness myself, a greater level of self-awareness and awareness of how other people are motivated. Um, I think that, that was— I'm really proud of. I think also consistently being in my relationship, my partner, in terms of bringing myself with love and attention and not like always trying to feel good and looking for different things. I find that more and more, and with family as well, like that a really nourishing aspect to my life. Um, for me, I think relationships and experiences are the most valuable thing in life. So I think I've particularly learned that this year is like that feeling of, um, bringing another person a smile just by being in the moment and being happy and playful yourself and curious and, um, looking for laughs. That, that, that is the best feeling in the world. And I, I used to want to always capture those moments and because like being producing funny stuff, or fun stuff, should I say. I didn't like the word funny because it's like when you— again, that's what feels like an outcome, but fun is a process-orientated thing. You're again invincible when you're focusing on just having fun, and no one can say you're not having fun because it doesn't really matter about the critic.

Josh: Not be funny.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, but you cannot be funny. Exactly, it's a subjective thing, but fun, um, isn't. So I mean, fun's still subjective, but at least that's why it's an internal orientation.

Josh: The only thing we promise is the daily bit, and that's pretty invincible, right?

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, true.

Josh: It's like, oh, we said we would do— like, we didn't—

Jeremy: like, you can't get mad at that. Yeah.

Josh: And so what was the— if you were to look at the, the week leading up to the panic attack, what were the, the signs, or what was the state of mind and the state of the world that you'd sort of created that could, now looking back, being telltale signs?

Jeremy: That's a good question. I think, um, it was the same thing before— like, I got hit with pretty bad depression about 4 years prior to that, and that's why actually more than 4 years, probably 8 years ago actually. But that's what meditation got me out of. I just Googled how to fix your brain and that was the main answer. Um, but then with anxiety, it was like this— I think I was ignoring my effect on my partner at the time and ignoring my effect on, um, what I was again deriving my sense of worthiness from. It was, um, it was forever external and And I, you know, I resolved a lot of that when I, when I did all that meditating. But this was like, I think this is a more deeper wound that was linked to my childhood. And I grew up in like a pretty extreme Christian sect. I talk about extreme like as in like, um, not, not like sexually fucking you up or anything. It's, it's more like super intense psychological spiritual manipulation, which is a very hard thing. It's a very specific nuance that's It's only been like— there's— I started a support group for a few years ago, and that, like, um, hearing people's storeys about how they— like, it was— it's, it's— I mean, I only say that to say that it's like, it's a hard thing to explain, the little pocket of, um, psychological trauma.

Josh: What was the feeling that you got from that experience? Is it guilt? Is it, uh, like, what do you think that that sort of psychological, uh, extreme rejection and conditional love—

Jeremy: extreme like almost like you feel bipolar, like you've got a part of yourself that's bad and evil and you've got a part of yourself that's really good and you reject the bad side of yourself with this intense narrative week after week. And we had this also weird mechanism that was all about sharing vulnerably and laying your life down. So this notion of, um, if I'm doing anything in my life right now, if you're in the church with me, like I could say, oh, you know, I really enjoyed what I did at work this week, but I got a bit— I got a bit much out of it and, um Again, this will sound weird, but like, um, you're very hyper self-aware of your motivations of things. And if anything's selfish, you, um, automatically speak it out. And, um, and people reflect how you've been selfish, or like where God can take that position, or this notion of God, which I suppose is just more this idea of loving this energy that's apparently got a personality and emotions, which is absurd. Um, but But you, like, when you're born into it, it's crazy how much you're like, oh well, that's— this just is the reality. And you look at everyone outside of the church is like selfish and other and, um, living for their own cardinal sins essentially.

Josh: So the— so the— so that week before, is it— so it's the external— so it's the—

Jeremy: I guess to connect to those, it's the feeling that you, um, you're not complete, or I'm not enough as I am and I'm not okay as I am. So it's kind of like this— I mean, I, I love my family to bits, and I've got no problem with anyone still in the church. I want everyone to be happy and that it's working for them. But for me, I had an immense sense of, um, going from a place— and I never really resolved this until my panic attack really brought it out. That's what my psychologist said. It was like, it was like my nervous system just shake it, like, or suppress it, and then your nervous system just pisses out, and you literally fuck— it's like you feel like you're gonna die. It's the worst feeling in the world. Like, I'd take depression over anxiety any day. Like, it's— you feel like your nervous system—

Josh: What sort of game show would that be? Come on, all right, Jeremy, welcome to the show. Which one are you feeling today?

Unknown: Here we go.

Josh: Uh-oh, it's landed in the middle. Bit of both. It would be a nightmare. But so you would pick— so, but the anxiety affected you when it— is it just because it was so, um—

Jeremy: It's debilitating and it's also very frightening. Like, depression's like a more of like a sedation. And you want to take your life, and you— that is a fanciful thing in comparison to this dark, dark darkness. But anxiety is like, it's like, it's, it's, it's, I guess, a higher frequency, or just shoots your nervous system, and it's, um, it's just awful. It's such an awful experience, and you can't— it's so hard to— again, that's what this year has been about, like trying to rewind my brain to not have anxious thinking. And, and and you see what the triggers are and you see what the remedies are, and you just slowly have to do it, do the work to remedy it. And, and it is clearly something you can remedy. I believe that these illnesses on, um, like pain impressions is something we can resolve. It's just finding the tools in the community and the support and the friends to facilitate that. And not— I, I'm a firm believer in not band-aiding it, um, because what are band—

Josh: what do band-aids tend to look like, do you think?

Jeremy: Uh, to me they were, um, medication or, um, distracting myself of drinking or partying or anything that's avoiding shutting your eyes, being still, allowing that feeling to come up as ugly or as horrible it is, and allow myself to just process it and be with it and not run away from it. And then it comes and through you as quickly as the motion of laughter does. Like, if you— we just don't like the negative feelings. And so if we treat them with the same attitude as a positive feeling, they pass just as quickly as a positive feeling too.

Tommy: I heard Sam Harris recently say that anxiety and excitement are a very similar internal response. And so it's just a different framing.

Jeremy: That's interesting.

Tommy: When you're scared, you know, you could get anxious, you're excited. And so it's just this complete different label on it that shifts, but internally, like, from a physiological response, it's very— it's like the same thing. Um, when are you— before a panic attack, is it living with anxiety daily, feeling it, and then when it happens, a panic attack, it's an extreme amount of it?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Tommy: So is it just constantly happening and then boom, or nothing and then boom?

Jeremy: Um, it was— for me it was nothing and then boom, and then residual anxiety. Like, I think I'd always— like, my mum's a bit anxious and, um, you know, I knew I had anxiety, but it just all came to the surface unexpectedly. Like, or something happened that in my personal life, in my relationship, that just triggered it, which essentially made me— was a feeling of I'm not enough. And then it just brought up all the feelings of like feeling like I'm not enough by my family standards because they used to have deep relationships with me and now I'm being selfish or bad or, um, don't have their worldview. And all the sense of rejection and not being good enough and all that pain, I kind of mirrored into my relationship, um, and had that kind of weakness. And then anyway, so the anxiety was just a reflection of that suppressed pain coming up through my anatomy. And, um, it was like breathing fast. It was— I think panic— there's a difference between— I can't remember defining the difference, but there's a difference between like having a panic attack and just have an anxiety. Panic attacks, like where the anxiety just, like I think what you said, like just climaxes. Um, and, and you can do very real things to—

Tommy: I—

Jeremy: one thing, one key thing I've learned of anxiety is like I can't resolve it on the level of the thing, of the problem. So for me, it's in my mind, and I can't, can't really do cognitive behaviour therapy effectively. I've got to kind of sink down into deeper parts of my body or my chakras and, and feel those energy centres and be still in that, and then inform my mind from that deeper beingness in myself. And that's what like meditation is like for me, is like sinking down into deeper states of what I am and then allowing that stuff to just piss on up out through me.

Josh: So does that mean not— so if you're having this, is it, is it like, okay, I need to not be necessarily communicate— like say if, say, you know, you hear it's like if you're angry or whatever, just give it like 5 minutes because you should definitely enter into this thing of just like, oh, like I'm on a I'm on a roll right now. No, no, fuck you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fuck you. It's like, it can be quite energizing, but it also feeds into that whole world that you've created for yourself in that moment. So is it, is it realising that, oh, whenever I— if whenever that happens, that's actually not— there's never a good outcome in that regard. And then so What do you do? What can you do? What do you replace from a communication within the relationship sense? You're feeling that from someone, or you're feeling like you want to enter into the anxiety you're feeling. What do you do?

Jeremy: Breathe is the biggest one. And that's what I mean, like, in terms of having to focus on a different energy center, it's like your chest or your gut. And, and doing this thing that SAS do before they go into, um, or the Navy SEALs, same people with different country, but they, they do before they enter like a intense military operation, they go— they just do this breathing thing where it's 10 in, 10 out, 10 seconds in, um, hold it for 10 seconds, 10 seconds out, hold it for 10 seconds. And you, you jump start your body. It's like the Wim Hof stuff. It like jump starts your body into a state of de-excitedness.

Josh: Because you've always been in an area of that self-development, faith, trying to find, you know, if there is an answer in my consciousness, if there's an answer, you're tru— you've you've found, you've found a few answers in your life and then realised potentially they're not. Or like, I feel like you've had a lot of experiences going to a psychologist. Do they challenge part of that, of the idea of finding a single truth or a single answer? Yeah, which is a—

Jeremy: that's a great interesting area, isn't it? Like, because there's— I think there's commonalities in all these people's worldviews. And the more you research, that's what I think life is about to me. That's what I'm most excited about, is just research. Like, so right now I'm not meditating much at all because I want have more groundly, like drink a beer, get drunk, like just more earthly experiences, which a lot of meditation teachers don't do. They— yeah, once you start, the more you meditate, you just ramp it up, but you come very ethereal and disconnected from reality.

Josh: Which also plays into, I guess, the thing that you're broken and need fixing, right? Like, so say like you can not drink and not do all these sorts of things based on I'm not good enough, and so I don't need— like I can't be—

Jeremy: yeah, it can be. You can be OCD with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. And you think you're only there for that. And that's actually interesting because that's what I did do when I started doing Vedic meditation, is I made that my new cult. You know, I had this— I had Jordy Shaw's— Jordy Shaw's— friendly Jordy's on my podcast, and he was— he— I was telling him all this stuff and he was like, um, it sounds like you're a cult hobbyist. Because I just— I replaced that, um, that mechanical mechanism in my mind where I wanted to attach my sense of, oh, that's the answer.

Josh: Yeah, well, if you've got this extreme— say like you've got this pathway and it's extreme, and then you're like, it's easy to rep— if you've got a hole, yeah, and you've, you've, you replace the hole with something, then you take it out, it's very easy to replace it with an extreme thing, right? And so it's like, for me, food and my extreme eating, it's way easier. Extreme eating, right? I did shuckers just then. The extreme eating then leads into like extreme dieting or extreme— like, it's very hard.

Tommy: But then what if, say for instance, you, you realise the, the cult thing— that's not a cult, but yeah, you realise that you take it away, implement no rule, so no consistency. So you like the food thing. I think people struggle without some kind of framework. Framework, could call it framework, rule. So the daily meditation thing, for someone taking a month off is like throwing them back into the wild.

Jeremy: But that's what I think, that's the— is the key. Because anyone wise that I've come across, like, there's only a handful of people that I'm like, you fucking— you're on it. And they're people that, um, have this ability to— because I, I mean, this is about to premise it, my framework, or my understanding of the nature of existence, is that the greatest desire is for us to evolve, and that ignorance is a, is a mechanic for us to become aware of that evolution, and love pulls us towards that evolution. So I think for me, it's like, um, the more different situations I can jump into, the better I'm adapting and therefore evolving. Um, so if the, the least things I can grab onto and the more fluid I can be— it's like the Taoist way, it's like fluidity is life, rigidity is death. And that ability to just always be in change and I mean, that's why I like did things like with Live with Pigs, like that you come and saw me do a few years ago, that in show notes media. It's great. It's like it threw me out of my comfort zone and forced me to adapt. And there's something very exciting about my brain pulling towards that. I think it's because I grew up in a framework that was so like, your freedom was so bound. And but they convinced— that's what's so manipulative about it is like you are free, shackled to this thing. That's literally the words they kind of use. And they believe that, you know, they're Jesus's bride or wife now, and all these kind of really quite, um, preposterous things. But they're just stories, I guess. But anyway, I'm detouring.

Josh: Well, so the, the, um, like the pig example, something that's pretty extreme, you know, um, uh, going to a restaurant farm or whatever and living with some pigs it got to the point where a morning show came, like filmed you and stuff. So that there is an extreme nature to that. You've got fond memories of that and look at that fondly. When does extreme serve you and when doesn't it serve you?

Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good question, isn't it? Because some— yeah, when it serves me, it is giving me a sense of liberation of my thinking or breaking down boundaries of what I thought was true, and I'm pushing the boundaries, I guess. And when it doesn't serve me, it's kind of— it's, it's a different form of— yeah, what I feel like I've read something recently that's about this. It's actually, it's like there's two forms of, um, not, not ignorance, but there's two forms of something or other, and I can't remember what it is. So that's good. I'm sorry, but I think what I'm trying to say is that like, I feel like in some cases like that it helps you and it's great, but in some cases you're doing it for a non-evolutionary purpose.

Josh: Well, yeah, it can be like there's multiple truths, I guess, is part of it too, which is like— which I think is— yeah, I think extreme in general is it like— because I think I've got an extreme personality as well, and I think that it's hard as like if you are creating something or even with relationships to understand how, how you fit in How do you fit in when you're bigger than the whole the world's provided?

Tommy: Do you think it's outcome-focused when we think that doing something— so you're seeing ahead, right? So you go, put myself out of my comfort zone to sort of heighten my understanding or feeling. Like, there is some thinking around the thing you'll get from it, which is where I come— which is the outcome. Yeah. But then if you don't do that, you're just a receiver of whatever the world throws at you. But then there's this balance between trying to push yourself into creating, have drive, have to create drive without outcome.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. And so because then you don't want to just be loose as fuck and not sort of plan anything and put yourself out there or so there's a, yeah, it's like this paradox of because if you're also wanting to, if you're traveling, if you're wanting to go somewhere, there's comfort in sort of knowing that there is a destination or an outcome for that travel.

Josh: So the idea of like, if you're going from, you know, LA to San Francisco, you know that how much time you have. And then so you can almost create storeys and things and work out the, the parameters to then have adventure. Whereas if you don't know where you're going to end up, there's almost no parameters, no framework, no boundaries. And so then you can't actually That's exciting. Yeah, well, it's exciting, but I guess it doesn't necessarily, um, potentially on a long road, it can, it can be darker.

Jeremy: I suppose it depends what you want, want to experience. I think the first example is like the best times you have in life are when are unexpected, I find, like, or surprises, or I mean, that's what laughter as well, like, it's always an unexpected thing. But the, the best nights I have is when we didn't plan it, or we were going to bed and then we ended up doing this and going out here.

Josh: Yeah. And do you ever find you try and hack that? So it's like, oh, hey, let's go to bed. It's like, or maybe not, let's go out. That's what Uber Eats is great, right? Because like, oh, it'd be outrageous to have dessert now.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Josh: Um, but Uber Eats has free piccolina, pita pipo. There's two of them, right?

Jeremy: Oh yeah, but piccolina, that's right. Yeah, which one's which?

Josh: Which is which? There's one Smith's. Anyway, we don't need to get bogged down with it. I find that it's quite hard in summer because it they're— because they're OG gelato, they're the, um, they don't hold as well, they get liquidy.

Unknown: Whereas—

Jeremy: so with your personality, saying how it's extreme, like, what, what's your outcome for— I don't want you to come— what do you— how do you remedy that? Or like, how do you comfort, or how do you please it, or whatever?

Josh: Well, I think it's like the draught thing, right? It's like the draughts of showing up every day, having consistent things, lowering the barrier of like what success looks like. So I think that potentially I look too far too big and not like— and so when I go too far too big, the real small things that actually have impact go by the wayside. So it's things like actually being conscious about email and just like sending the email back to the per— like, or like even doing washing or those types of things where it's like, I think that in the extreme mindset sometimes you can be like Like, I can't think about that. Like, I don't have time to be thinking about these small dumb things because I'm trying to work out this big thing.

Tommy: I think you've done a good job, Josh, this year of not knowing— you could say outcome, but not under— not being able to have the answer of what something we're doing is going to bring us or do for us or evolve to.

Josh: So then, but knowing something will come out of it, right?

Tommy: So that is so—

Josh: but you don't know, we don't know what it is. So it's like a detachment of outcome but also recognising that this is the outcome. Like, so the thing is, if the show had to stop for whatever reason today, like, if it wasn't on—

Tommy: Good to have you on for the last episode. Yes, but we would have you, but would still love having this conversation.

Josh: And that's like what you were talking with Ryan about the process. If you love the process and it's like, okay, all of a sudden the internet goes down, we'd probably just get a campfire or whatever and still talk.

Jeremy: And still talk because it's connect— I mean, like, when I'm trying to sense what you guys love about this. And I'd— I'd suggest it might be connection. It's just like having that curio or a space to connect with one another and connect with other people. I mean, that's what I love about— with my podcast, it's just an opportunity to sit down, look in the eyes, and just connect with one another. I mean, that's what you must love doing it together with. Like, you might— your friendship must have really grown and flourished and become somewhat of a marriage, I suppose.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, they're all interested, like catching up with people that I haven't seen in a long time. And then the depth you go to, like we go to with the people, is a very unique thing. It's like this— it's, it's so unusual.

Jeremy: It's quite primitive, I think, like, like how we sit around fires and tell storeys and share experiences and share research.

Tommy: And so if slow is your word for the year, or you've been trying to slow it right down, What does it look like moving forward?

Jeremy: Um, I think be more conscious of what— how I accelerate. So, um, be aware and do it in a more content— I've done a lot— this is all like I've done, I've done contented projects before, but like be more absolutely content in what I create. Um, i.e., creating it for the, the love of the purpose of it rather than a focused outcome. And I said that so many times, but like, I feel like that's such a, a fuck-up in my brain, my thinking, where I can't do that. So, um, you say big, I think that—

Josh: which is, I think, like an exciting thing, right? Which is like, I think like the conversations you and I have, it's like how to create the multi-million dollar business, right? And like, I've done the same thing. It's like, well, you gotta— it's that whole thing, like you gotta make it a dollar before you can make $10, and $10 before you make $100, and $100 before $1,000. And so what are some of those smaller— what's the small thing that's not outcome-driven that you're excited about for 2020, do you think?

Jeremy: Small— I'm making little videos, just, um, making little videos that I've— I think, uh, got somewhat of a thought-provoking, mind-expanding, liberating sense.

Josh: I love those edits. That you've, um, what's the, um, So Man Limited?

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. So just taking something that I think is funny and then making it more absurd and try to interweave something that makes people think differently. I think it's, um, I'm hoping to do some more work with Russell Brand next year as well. I've worked with him a bit in the past and coming to Oz. Yeah, yeah. And so doing something, staying at your place. Yeah, yeah. Um, doing something that, um, that's like, I really like his work in that sense that it's laughter but there's enlightened thinking interwoven with it. And I think that's, for me, that's, uh, that's a, that's a newer ground of, um, content. Or I guess if, like, because these are the fires, the phones are the fires of the, you know, what fires used to be. Our phones are that kind of—

Josh: and I'm a pyromaniac, you know, 24/7.

Tommy: There's always one loose unit around the fire, always there. Yeah, you still here, Jeff?

Josh: So do you, um, do you spend a lot of time on your phone, Jazz?

Jeremy: No, not really. Um, but I, I think just, um, offering something into that space where everyone, where everyone's attention is in this day and age, that's, um, actually does something that helps them, um, but do it in a way that's fun. So you kind of appeal to their level of short attention span thinking, but you're actually delivering something that's insightful that will actually help them. I feel like that's a two-punch a really, um, and I'm, I know I'm, I'm learning how to do that better. Like, I want to do that really, really well.

Josh: What's in the platform? It's like McDonald's doing salads, you know. You've got, you've got someone who's going in. Do you get what I'm saying?

Jeremy: A relevant platform, or like—

Josh: well, yeah, no, like, it's—

Tommy: but, but you're saying they've got the attention and now they're doing something potentially unhealthy or whatever, and you're going— they're just doing it for— because they were pressured. We got to make this joint look a little bit healthy.

Josh: Has anyone ever had a salad from Maccas?

Jeremy: No, it would be crap, I reckon.

Tommy: It's a drug dealer who gives his customers a bit of Panadol because they've got a headache from the night before.

Josh: Yeah. Do they do that?

Tommy: Maybe, maybe.

Josh: It's not a bad idea.

Jeremy: I reckon I actually think that notion is what's— because you need to be relevant.

Josh: Yeah.

Jeremy: If you're going to drop insightful wisdom like Dalai Lama, it's going to do it on TikTok.

Josh: I would love to have Dalai Lama on TikTok. Yeah.

Tommy: Could you imagine?

Josh: Yeah. Duh duh duh duh duh duh.

Unknown: Like that.

Tommy: But then it's like, yeah, my mum is a yogi and has meditated, you know, for the last 50 years. I say to her, do you ever have a day where you're not? No, it's just, she just does it. She's not intense about it. She just, it's just baked in. She's always just doing her meditation and yoga and it's her life. And she has her gurus that she looks to. And Paramahansa Yogananda, he's a, you know, a guru for thousands of people around the world. Old school. He, what he was when he was on earth and what he is now, like it probably excels beyond what he believes probably was even capable. And so the thing is, it's interesting because it's, it's almost still outcome focused when we're thinking that the content we're creating and being relevant to the platforms and where it goes, there is an outcome. It's like we need to get it to the people.

Unknown: Yeah.

Tommy: Whereas these people back in the day, no social media, they wrote books, they documented their life and people around them. Probably heard whispers of them, and now they're ex— they're exceeding that, you know, big based on these platforms and stuff. And so what is— it's a weird thing because it's— you don't want to just—

Josh: what's relevancy?

Tommy: Write stuff on a piece of paper and not holding it lightly.

Jeremy: I think it's holding it lightly, I would say, like, because you need to be relevant. Because otherwise, I mean, like, if you're contributing something, it's important. I think it's worthwhile being relevant because if you're contributing something that you think will help people, it's worth taking a moment to try to appeal to their level of thinking. And that's what I think. So it— but it's like held loosely. It's not like I must, must. And that's why I like that Vedic principle, which is a bit yogi as well. And it's like, um, you have—

Tommy: you—

Jeremy: will you surrender preference and surrender preference and a desire to a particular outcome, but you hold it loosely? You know what you think will work. I think it's that lightness that is the, the key. So would you say—

Tommy: yeah. Yeah, because I don't— it's, it's a hard one because it's— the times have changed. And so you're not the platform.

Josh: Hamish and Andy, like, in the time that they've been there, like, you know, within sort of media and mainstream, things have changed heaps. And so, like, all the principles remain the same.

Tommy: Like, the medium's not the monster necessarily.

Josh: And so, like, you just adjust. Like comedy, like that, we've got all these universal truths And so part of it is like there's things that are funny and there's things that aren't funny, or there's stuff that will work potentially better on certain things. So being able to do quick funny stuff versus sort of longer burn, slower burn.

Jeremy: When Instagram was 15-second videos.

Unknown: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so that's the whole thing is like, I mean, I think that the—

Tommy: had to film in the app.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So you had to stitch them in there. Okay.

Josh: So it's like there's the universal, like, I guess Even if you look at self-development, I guess what I love is, um, even with authors, when I read a book that I really love that's being done in 2019 or, you know, 2018 or wherever it is, I want to be like, oh, when is, um, what were they reading? Like, what are they into? And it ends up being stuff that's super fucking old. It's like the— it's like Ryan Holiday with stoicism and all that sort of thing. It's like these things things are actually universal, and they're just doing a great job of making it relevant, making it relevant, presenting. Yeah. And that's, I guess, what like prophets are. Yeah. Or whatever. It's like, okay, uh, you know, creating a relevant message that, you know, through metaphors and all that, or, you know, real stories, however you want to view it.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Josh: I guess that's like, you know, part of it.

Jeremy: I love that. I think that they're the people that are really charming. Like, for me, two examples are Johnny Pollard, who's a meditation teacher, and he's He's taken this ancient, um, you know, like, I guess, psychology around the mind and spirit and made it super relevant and so charming. And like, just the way he's almost— it feels so— such little ego in his teaching that he just feels so in— like, you gravitate towards him. And also M. Power, who's an incredible, um, tantra teacher. So, which is not all sexual, it's just, um, living life to the fullest essentially and understanding having greater self-awareness. But she does it in such an attractive way that you, you, you're so charmed by her. And I think that there's so many teachers out there in terms of the spiritual and personal development.

Josh: What is it called?

Jeremy: Tantra. Tantra.

Josh: What did you say? Not sexual. I didn't even know.

Tommy: Tantric sex.

Jeremy: Because tantric sex—

Josh: I don't know what tantric sex is. What is tantric? Should I do tantric sex? What is it? Tell me about it.

Jeremy: It's, um, it's us. I mean, tantra is more like a—

Josh: look it up, 97.

Jeremy: Please. I've only done a couple workshops, I don't know, but it's essentially, um, about understanding your, your body's energy centres and understanding how you can communicate with another person and, and, um, their love languages and da di da di da.

Josh: So, 97, what is the definition? What are they— what do you, what are you finding?

Unknown: So it's a holistic practice. It's not about sex or orgasm, it's about the journey you take to get there.

Josh: Maybe that could be sort of life hack boy. Yeah, life hack. So Mr. 97, um, is, uh, he's got a club for 2020 and it's the Life Hacker Club. So looking at different sort of, yeah, things that Life Hacker Club could do.

Tommy: That sounds very outcome-focused.

Josh: That's why, but what I love about it, it's not, it's not an outcome because it's all about the journey, is that what they said?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown: I mean, so it's a Western variation of tantra associated with new religious movements.

Josh: Is it foreplay?

Jeremy: Uh, no, it's actually— I mean, like, the main thing I like—

Josh: I mean, foreplay doesn't have to have orgasms in it.

Tommy: Sex is always orgasm in foreplay.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: I mean, if it's good enough.

Josh: No, but it's not—

Tommy: that doesn't count.

Josh: No, no, no.

Tommy: Yeah, true. So it's only foreplay if it's before the play.

Josh: Before the ejaculation.

Tommy: Why is it spelled with F-O-U-R like four?

Josh: F-O-R. How do you spell foreplay?

Tommy: F-O-R-E. Oh, it is foreplay.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Four, is that like before?

Josh: Can you look up the word foreplay?

Tommy: Yeah, fore.

Josh: Standby.

Tommy: This is interesting.

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, what's the—

Josh: What's the—

Unknown: The sexual activity that precedes intercourse.

Josh: So it's a sexual activity. So I guess the thing about that— what's it called again?

Jeremy: The tantra.

Josh: Tantra isn't necessarily sexual.

Jeremy: No, but it could be a big component. A component of it is like, yeah, enjoying the pleasure, pleasure component of sex without having orgasm, particularly for men. And then the multiple buttons on a woman and understanding those.

Tommy: Is it— what is one of the chakras? Sexual?

Jeremy: Yeah, the root chakra. Like, so then it's a lot to do with breathing exercises too, so you don't get blue balls essentially. So you, you send the energy up to higher chakras, so you can just go for longer.

Josh: Feel it in the chest. Yeah, really? So this is like a, um, uh, what's it called? Pre— uh, what's, uh, what's it called if you ejaculate quickly?

Tommy: Premature.

Josh: Premature. So this is a potential mechanism to— but a mechanism. So if rather than taking a nasal spray or something, you could potentially— how is that going to show the chakra thing? Maybe I take that for Do you want to—

Unknown: I've got a position. Yeah, do you want me to describe it?

Josh: Yeah.

Unknown: Okay, this is called the lotus.

Tommy: Sorry, Jess, this is what we do.

Unknown: Step 1: Have your partner sit cross-legged. Sit on your partner's upper thighs and cross your ankles behind their back. Okay, breathe in sync and stare into each other's eyes.

Josh: Okay, great.

Unknown: Or you can do it by yourself. Sit cross-legged with your back straight. Place your palms on your knees. Begin to breathe slowly and deeply.

Josh: So it's meditation essentially.

Jeremy: Yeah, and it's basically like cultivating deep connections. There's a lot of eye gaze and stuff, but a lot of it is, um, essentially like abstaining from orgasm. So you— and you can actually charge yourself a lot of the energy. Like, the more you don't come, the long— the more like energy you can, um, you, you actually feel that a greater amount of vital energy in your day. It's very interesting. I would try— like, once I learned about it, I was like, this is ridiculous that I always—

Josh: this is like the No Nut November thing. Yeah, it is a bit. It actually is.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Josh: So do you—

Jeremy: I think it came from this stuff.

Josh: So do you try and then— so have you pared back the amount of times you're coming then in a week?

Jeremy: Yeah, until— so you don't—

Tommy: is that removing masturbation?

Jeremy: No, you do that, but then you—

Josh: before you— but you're a monster.

Tommy: Hang on, wait, we do it to charge.

Josh: It's like a—

Jeremy: it's like a battery charge.

Tommy: So you don't orgasm, but you masturbate.

Jeremy: Yeah. So you— and you don't do it to material, you do it—

Unknown: you—

Jeremy: and you do it for longer, and you don't, um, you don't— the intention is not to climax. So you just ride this wave that essentially looks like a graph. So if you— and you, you eventually— your pleasure curves, because you never climax, it's like this, it's like that, you know, that like building a load essentially. Yeah, building a load.

Josh: I mean, seriously.

Unknown: Yeah.

Jeremy: Where you The higher you bring this pleasure curve and drop and then ride it again and drop and never climax, that pleasure curve ends up being like way higher than an orgasm would be if you just busted a nut.

Tommy: Okay, so same feeling.

Jeremy: So yes, it's insane, like it's almost psychedelic.

Josh: Wait, you're saying that it feels like— so without busting a nut, that's the term, isn't it?

Tommy: So without ejaculating, you can have an orgasm without ejaculating? That's what you're saying?

Jeremy: Exactly.

Josh: And so how do you know what's the difference? How do I know?

Jeremy: It's like a full body sensation, like, you know, when a really good—

Josh: and you know the difference between a jet, like, because I guess my concern would be that I fucking think that one's the other and I just end up ejaculating, right?

Jeremy: No. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating. I really encourage people to try it because it's like, how do we start if we want to start? Not now.

Josh: I sort of set myself up like we're going to start.

Jeremy: No, do you know what, it's like, it's riding a pleasure wave rather than looking for an outcome. It's the same shit we're talking about, like enjoying the process and keep riding that process curve. And you— and never having that outcome means that like you have way more energy, like vital energy in the day.

Josh: Wet dreams.

Jeremy: Yeah, that you can kerb that by like not setting intentions before you sleep, not pleasuring yourself before you sleep, um, all these kind of things.

Tommy: Well, think about young men, maybe women, but men masturbating to pornography quick.

Josh: Yeah, how quickly can I get it done sort of thing.

Tommy: That's a great example, which then leads to the premature ejaculation stuff. It's like you're geared to as soon as you have sex, I want to come. And so then, and so that's— I've done this stuff before. I've done the, uh, doing some reading. Well, yeah, you don't— you push it out. So it's like you get your— because most young men's pattern would be wank, wank, wank, come, do porn quickly because I need to get done. I got 6 of these to get through for today, and I really like this.

Josh: Why such a quiet day?

Tommy: And so then the opposite is don't let it happen to you. Not that for me. So it's not always familiar with the ejaculation.

Jeremy: Yeah, you change your relationship to the pleasure. It's, it's, it's super interesting, super interesting, dude. And the more you start doing it, you're like, this is ridiculous, and I've never done this before. Before.

Josh: Why aren't people talking about this?

Jeremy: Because I mean, it's all this new age shit, like it gets, it gets like woo-woo'd and it gets like even No Nut November, there's so much like ignorant talk around it. But that's the fun of it. That's the—

Josh: when it's an ignorant bit, um, oh, like just a lack of understanding about the intention, why you're actually doing it, why you're actually doing it.

Jeremy: Like it's like, why would you not bust it out? Like men are made to bust nuts. And, and I think I just saw some real like testosterone-fueled, don't take my fucking orgasm away from me shit. Um, But yeah, I think it— and what I'm saying, like, the non-ignorant approach is understanding, like, that you— it's, it's about, like, connection and a deeper— it's really psychedelic. Like, the most psychedelic experience I've had during meditation and during sex compared to, um, and then doing acid and DMT.

Josh: So what's that?

Tommy: So how many got close to it without something?

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremy: Which I think is really important to know.

Josh: How many sort of days have you gone in a row of like the build-up where you are self-pleasuring but not busting a nut?

Jeremy: About 4 weeks. Nothing crazy, but people do it for like a lot longer than that. I'm new to this, so I've only just started— I only started doing this tantra stuff about 3, 3 or 4 months ago. But it, um, it's something that a lot of people would like naturally do with a really good partner anyway. It's not like It's, it's just building framework and thinking and practises around it that makes you expand your ability to do it more. But no doubt, like, you know, a lot of people do tantra like sex just because they're really in the moment with their partner.

Josh: Great.

Tommy: It's a 97. It's a lot for you, isn't it, young man? Yeah, maybe think twice before busting your nuts.

Josh: No, no, I appreciate it.

Tommy: I love it. Uh, meditate.

Josh: Meditation. Uh, you've been generously doing workshops and teaching people. Is it Vedic meditation? It's—

Jeremy: yeah, it's kind of like that. It's a bit like TM, bit like Vedic meditation. It's basically a mantra-based meditation, um, where you hold your awareness on this mantra, which is a Sanskrit sound. That mantra is just a mind vehicle, and you just have your awareness on it for 20 minutes twice a day, and it allows you to sink into— it's like a weight in the ocean. It allows you to sink into deeper states of what you are, or deeper, deeper experience of what you are. And the more you familiarise yourself with, they would say, the baseline of what you are, which is just, uh, innocent beingness, um, the more you can witness all the higher levels of thinking, the, the neurotic continual thought patterns that are all unconscious that we don't— like, isn't Freud that said like 95% of our intentions or our behaviour is motivated from the unconscious, I think. So it's like when you sink into these deeper states of being or experiencing your beingness, you kind of have an ability to watch and observe and, and analyze, I guess, or reflect on all this unconscious behaviour that, um, you're acting from. And it's, it's cr— I think it's insane because We, um, we— it's insane to me that we don't prioritise that more in society because we're running around like being motivated and acting from a fucking huge part of ourselves that we're not even aware we're doing. Like, you speak to some people sometimes and that just like just reacting and responding, it's all reaction and not really listening. Again, this is Tantra stuff, is really focused on listening. Like, and there's a bunch of other things um, talk about this stuff. But like, it's having the ability to listen, which is obviously what you guys do as well, because you have to do it in this space to be a good listener. You really have to let go of your reaction to what they're saying and almost like go complete— your eyes are completely on their brain, innocently absorbing their experience without this compulsive thing to, oh yeah, and I did that once, or whatever, you know.

Tommy: Well, like, the answer is not more stimulus or information. So it's— but that's the age we're in, right? And so people don't need more thought. Yeah, it's about— it's like actually stepping back to observe the thousand, 60,000 plus thoughts we have a day.

Josh: Yeah, we've already got that.

Tommy: We already have.

Josh: Even if we don't need more toys, use the toys that you've got in your fucking toy room.

Tommy: No, don't even use them. Look at them from the door.

Josh: Actually sort them first.

Tommy: Sure, but then you gotta step to the door and look at them.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And then think about what are these things.

Josh: I think it's okay to enter the door, potentially move them around, adjust, and get out. I think you need to be in and out. If you spend all day in the toy room, it's not healthy.

Jeremy: Sure, sure.

Tommy: But even like, so yeah, yeah, we're a parenting podcast, like getting super deep with it. I've been doing this practise in Sam Harris's app where he gets you to look at an object. And so we're the subject and the object's over there. The, the camera right here is the object. Focus on the object. So you're putting— however we do that, however we focus, you're doing that. And then look to the object. Where is that focus coming from? And it's, it's like, I, I don't have the answer. I don't even fucking know. But it just— what it does is his purpose is to become one with it all rather than have it as an object over there.

Josh: So if it's— so it's almost like, is it potentially like looking at a camera or whatever?

Tommy: Look at an object, a camera, Mr. 97, and then take the focus away from looking at Mr. 97 to, to reverse look back.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Tommy: Who is doing the focusing? But then on top of that, it's it is, what is the fucking focusing bit? What is that whole thing?

Josh: Well, that's truth, that's perspective, that's like the multiple truths, right? It's like you're having a different experience, Jez, than what Tommy is and what I have. And that's why like it's so fucking dumb to argue all the time, because everyone's truth is different.

Tommy: And then what's behind that thought of even that it being the truth?

Jeremy: Exactly, man. This is fascinating because this is what the Vedic, um, people talk about, is like the witness witnessing the witnessed. And then once you go through that cycle enough times, your brain goes and that's what they— that's— they said that's when ignorance got formed. It's like evolution of nature needed ignorance in order to have an experience of witness in itself. If we can't— which is, we get real trippy and always gives me goosebumps thinking about this shit— but like, the— when you, um, break the cycle of what you're saying, which is you're a field of consciousness having an experience witnessing a thing that's been witnessed and you go, but then what is that? What's behind the seat that's witnessing? It's like the seat of the soul, or what's, what's behind the witness?

Tommy: And where is that?

Jeremy: Where is that? Yeah, it's— and then you— it's just—

Josh: it—

Jeremy: yeah, it— yeah, it always fucks you up because it's like, whoa. Yeah, it gets real. Like, it breaks— it makes your brain go, uh, yeah. Because if you go on it, if you're going it deep enough for long enough, you really fuck your brain up.

Tommy: Because what we want is an answer of, yeah, where is that? Witness? Where is that? Is it up here in our head? Like, where is it in, in our consciousness?

Josh: What's easy?

Tommy: And then there's no real fucking— like, where is the answer?

Jeremy: But we do know the more you quiet yourself, the more you can familiarise yourself of what it is. The answer isn't thinking more. The answer is quieting, de-exciting more, to have the ability to discern neurotic, consistent, irrelevant patterns that we're doing. And and just quiet them all down so you have the ability to actually watch. Because, because that's where you find the answers, I think. I mean, it is where I found my answers, in, in those quiet, quiet, quiet moments. I love it.

Josh: Jeremy Khan, thank you for being on the show.

Jeremy: It's been a pleasure.

Josh: Thanks for having me.

Jeremy: That gave me goosebumps towards the end.

Josh: Yeah, really? Was it the no nut stuff? Were you, were you just entering a chakra?

Jeremy: I actually busted in that one.

Josh: I'm not the only one. All right, it's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Type in Jeremy Khan on Apple Podcasts and, and, uh, or even Spotify. I'm guessing you're on Spotify. Yeah, all those places. Check out his podcast. Otherwise, see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.

Jeremy: Thanks.