- December 18, 2019
John Safran – Satirist, Documentary maker and author
John has produced some of Australia’s most popular and award-winning documentaries, including Race Around the World, John Safran vs. God and John Safran’s Race Relations. John also wrote Murder In Mississippi which won Best Non-Fiction and Best True Crime book in 2013, and 2014 respectively.
John has a new Audible Original Podcast, ‘John Safran vs The Occult’.
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, we discuss:
– Being in the mainstream
– Books and John’s new Audible original, ‘John Safran vs The Occult’
– Poser moves
– The New Zealand Vape Expo
– Storytelling and growing up
– Pushing the boundaries
– Overthinking and oversharing
– Wine and John’s whitewater rafting trip
John Safran vs The Occult – an Audible Original Podcast: https://audible.com.au/theoccult
John on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnsafran
Email us: firstname.lastname@example.org
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
The Daily Talk Show is an Australian talk show and daily podcast by Tommy Jackett and Josh Janssen. Tommy and Josh chat about life, creativity, business, and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and gronks! If you watch the show or listen to the podcast, you’re part of the Gronk Squad.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's the daily Talk Show Episode 550 and we've got john zefram in the building
authority for personal training.
Well finally should say that why was John's personal trainer for many years? I am I just looked because it coincided around the time of your birthday marking a good year no seven years ago that I was trying to fire out
What may try to you or just know
like I know you You're a good trainer was I yeah, I mean, we haven't I haven't gotten like stare at you find all the trainers now just like do that on their phone. Free smartphone in a big way. It was a he occasionally played snake on his naki push up.
It was so
you came into the gym where I was working and somehow you got assigned to me. And I was it was Felt serendipitous at the time because I was wanting to get into TV and I had no idea what what you'd been up to.
I am having flashbacks now. Yeah, where you thought I had all this guidance and advice. And then you thought I was like holding back on you when really I didn't have any guidance or advice.
You are the big vlogger though.
I guess I
wasn't even called vlog he was what was it? A video blog? Like What Did video diary This was when he did race around the world.
I Yeah, that's true. Yes. So it was the first cameras that had come out where they had the flip screen. So there was like, we were like video during ourselves for this ABC show and it just seemed confusing and new and revolutionary and stuff
is about two megapixel cameras back then. It's um, it's interesting, like I've always been surprised at how they it TV when I say that, then it works or you know, we want high quality but then they allow, like integration of things like GoPros into feature films. Was it a consideration of the poor quality bachlin
Oh yeah, I remember, like not only the show race around the world which had that but even shows like cops were like, the cameras were on the, you know, the front of the police cars and that let this thing like, really, it really threw you a bit where as a viewer because he just hadn't seen that good TV shows up until that were like really well, it was a requirement and you know, the cameras on tripods and and then then for some reason, like the most commercial like networks and commercial shows to lose genre of like documentary, which, up until then was considered really like, like pretentious and arty and highbrow or whatever. And then but then they suddenly took all those techniques. So like so Keeping Up With The Kardashians and all and the old spoons or whatever, and all these like really the could not be more mainstream show is were like, you know, taking all the techniques of, you know, you know, documentary filmmaking way like you don't have to put things on to tripods and in swing the camera and it goes out of focus for a couple of seconds and it doesn't matter if it kind of bad lighting or whatever. So yeah, thanks a lot Kim Kardashian. What do you think stealing? You know, the, you know, the things that I helped set up? What do
you think of mainstream mainstream concept? I feel like you're quite the fringe
on that. Certainly, if I'm, like, countercultural that's just because I'm unsuccessful. more popular. I got whenever I start a new project, I am like for instance, I'm working on a new book for penguin it's my third book and when I am I'm having meetings with penguin it's not like Oh, how do we make this really like an inaccessible where you all like a thinking like we're like, oh my god, like how we gonna make this one? The one that breaks out a big W and everything and yeah, I love big w Yeah, I love I literally have conversations with Penguin, where I say, How can we frame this so this book would be one of the is one that gets you know, you put up a big big w
what you want to be like barefoot investor?
Oh, literally Yes. But uh, but you know, I'm just not that I do that I'd sell out if I thought I was I'd be any good at it but what the problem was selling out is it doesn't work and then you're not happy with the work you've done. Whilst if you do if I do something like where I'm gonna find my instinct a bit more and I'm then it can work and it's great. And if it doesn't work, you still kind of got this thing you like so
what would you never what would selling out look like for you? And have you had a moment where you've had the opportunity to sell out?
Now I have I can't tell you how people just submit there's something about my geek that like view is just done by me being disingenuous, like like to mice to myself if you know what I mean. Yeah, so like I've even done like subtle things. For instance way. It's like I'm going to do a story where it's about you know, I stopped tracking scientific Fans or whatever, and just the audience can even pick up that. I'm not really like, that's not really my scene or whatever. And they're not. It's not like they throw bricks at me or whatever. But like, it just sort of doesn't work. Like I always have to be following these things that I'm obsessed with or else. Yeah, read is just an old listeners or viewers just kind of don't buy it.
Well, I think it works. And I think you've done a lot of TV three books is yes, it's pretty good. We've been talking about authenticity. And you could say that if you feel cringe about something, and you listen to that feeling that's being authentic, whereas I feel that sometimes you can feel not great about putting something out into the world because you just, it's not the best or I don't think but then you do put it out and it works. How do you actually identify what's authentic for you?
Uh, well, I guess. There's like a triangle. It is a bit like a TED talk where she's gonna have to do Something it has to be. It's like a tension between what I reckon an audience wants, and then what I want, and then also what the person who's greenlighting at once, and you just have to negotiate around that, I guess, does that answer your question?
talks that I came in,
like the lamest TED Talk.
Where I do like, look for outside things and like try to study them. It's not so much topics or subject matters, its structure. I'm really bad at structure. So when I'm like writing, I don't really know what I'm doing. So what's really cool, my first book was a true crime book. And what's really the real Mississippi s and what's really cool about writing about true crime is there's things to do where you like, you don't have to really think about structure because the structure works out itself, because you're investigating a crime and Then you go okay well I'll go to the police station where they investigated the crime then I'll go to the street where the guy was killed knock on doors and you got the like this to do list of things to do and I but I find if I don't have that To Do List I'm just really confused
talking about crime podcasting within sort of the crime space that seems to be the one that's that has been popping. Yeah. Does it feel to have something that you back on the mainstream thing, all of a sudden becomes cool.
Yeah, I think it's not fair that I think I should be like, yeah, more mainstream considering Yeah, I was, like, before cereal or whatever I was. I was like, all doing that true crime thing before it kind of popped. And then somehow, it was surreal. Why
is it the medium right? I have like I read murder in Mississippi. And when I was training you, you were doing the books are you telling me stuff that was going on? And then I was connecting it with the book. So I have this like really vivid picture of what you the journey you went on with that. And it's just as vivid as the serial one. So it's like, it's the medium at that point. It's a
podcast of us as a book. Yeah, this is a book. Yeah, no, that's true. And then that now now audiobooks are becoming really bigger. They're really growing. So now they're releasing audio books on the same date as the paper walk. And there's like no distinction between them. So maybe when my next book will be the
main condition, contentious issue is when Josh says he's read a book, and I say, Did you listen
or Dre? I listened. I've got 170 audio books. With flex again.
Can you say you've read a book when you've listened to a john?
Yeah, I reckon I'm wrong, but I'll
just do these original with audible.
Yeah, yeah, that is true. My last project was with audible so there's a bit of a gun against my head go along with that.
What's that? Like? What is it like? Taking on a project you were talking about? The audience, I guess what the publisher wants, what is audible like as a as a stakeholder?
I know, it's really good. And they're part of making sure books don't die. And they're part of, you know, getting good content out there. And they're trying to have an angle. So they, they, they sort of put a lot of thought into things like they're not just throwing out endless content, that they're trying to have a point of distinction between the endless content. So yeah, that they really put a lot of thought into my project.
What does it mean when if you are someone that doesn't like structure or do well with structure, how does that work when a company gives you a bunch of cash and says go and make this thing?
I often so it's a combo of things, sometimes I will. Like when I'm writing I read a lot of other books in the genre I'm writing and try to figure out the blueprint. So I did that with like True Crime where before I went off I was freaking out because I'd never written a book before and never really written a lengthy piece before and I kind of didn't really hand in all my university essays I thought and then suddenly I signed this thing where I have to like deliver a book you know, books are quite thick. Like once they're on your your phone, you can forget half the clear. And so I was freaking out and I just read True Crime book off the true crime book. And was quite trying to like analyse the blueprint and then when I went over to Mississippi, I sort of was going okay, that's happened in that book. So how do I do this, but with my thing, quick reader. Now, I mean, like, I can be, I can be but and not generally.
I mean, because I always find when I'm reading, if I try and get too fast, I really realise I'm actually not reading like there's actually no, like I'm not retaining any information. Do you have any tips when it comes to researching if you got to consume a bunch of books, a
Yeah, I always read. I'm really driven by shame and guilt. So I find if I read two books at the same time, when I'm reading that one I'm feeling guilty about not reading the other ones. Okay. Now go to the other one. Okay, okay. Yeah. And that kind of keeps it going. So yeah, just if people have like real weird relationships with books these days, like they it's like a shame. If I listened to it, is it a book and, and all that, that jazz, but I also think that if you don't like a book, like to stop reading it, because it might be the authors fault. There's a lot of things where it's meant to be like, they will go, Oh, I didn't finish reading that book. And I feel so bad or whatever. And like, it says something bad about me that this but maybe like, that wasn't a good book. Maybe it was good. He stopped reading it.
I feel like you're very honest. Do you think it's a poser move sometimes I'll listen to an audio book. And I enjoy it. And then so I buy the physical copy of the book to put on my bookshelf. Am I opposer
Don't know if you're a poser, but I've occasionally gone through stages with a Kindle, where I am and I'm reading a book and it makes its has such an important effect on me. I haven't read like in cold blood on Kindle or whatever. And then yeah, I am feeling afterwards going. I wish I had the book that I have occasion. Yeah, I have bought, like, I think I bought in cold blood after the fact. I didn't read the physical copy. And I think I ended up reading it again or whatever. But yeah, I can relate to that. It is it is nice having the
one thing that I've started to do because I feel I got self conscious about people potentially saying, hey, it doesn't look like you've read the book, as in because the physically the UK is isn't one. But there's a website called World of books that sells secondhand books. Oh, yeah. And so you can just go on there and so I can get a book that's actually been read by heaps of people. I got a quickie noting that. So yeah, there's I found like notes from people like birthday messages. I had one which was Judd Apatow. Book. What's that called? Jana Patel's book? I can't remember the title. But he sick in the head. It was good. I got like the publisher like a pre release. Copy not for sale. Not for sale. Correct?
Yeah, they're great. That's a real
well, is that Triple J? We got lots of books on. Yes, I've got quite a few of these uncorrected proof. Yeah, that's like yeah, that's maximum please. I can send some of them to you. If you want to go out posing.
corrected prove how you opposer
How am I? What do you do? I don't know. Am I accused of it's hard to know for that. I guess you can do some subconscious things or whatever. But
I feel like you think enough that I think we're all posers. Yes. And so you just know like, what is the on what do you do purely to be on brand?
Ah, I don't know. Luckily my brand is just
being known. Being a poser which makes it hard.
Being a bit of a hinge on kilted that's a word. I'm killed it is that even a word? Just not wearing a kilt today. So I think it's fitting into my personal life. I play Scrabble a lot, but it's not I'm not being a poser yet. Just I know it's a Yes, I'd like to, I guess. I don't know what I'm going whitewater rafting, which I haven't done, though. I've only done one day of it before, but I'm going on an eight day whitewater rafting thing later this week in Tasmania. So that's a bit. Why do you want like what's the bit in you that wants to do that? I like boot camp, because ever since he dumped me. My You know, my exercise has gone down. So I just thought going into 2020 it'd be cool. Like the last you have an eight day boot camp. You like it's like, six hours a day. pedalling.
But I mean, there's a few things you're doing that without mates. You're doing it with a group of people you don't know there's a there's a lot of that's confronting for most people to do something like that on your own. I mean, you know, you know, if you've, you've done a lot of things where you've put yourself in uncomfortable situations Do you think do you think people think you fly under the radar? Or when you go in into the alt rights? protest? Yeah. Are you actually fit in or they go, john again?
Oh, no, usually someone's squeals
but it's kind of like the last thing I've done like that which they totally not like the outright at all. But what went into a world that you know, I hadn't really gone into with just last week where I was in New Zealand for the vape Expo. And so I was hanging out with the the world they've seen. So
vaping is it illegal in Australia to buy the liquid or
neither? It's illegal to buy from Australia, nicotine liquid but you can order nicotine liquid from overseas.
And so you're, you're sort of going this is Can I say one of the things that has grabbed your attention you go after things that just, you know, squeeze that attention inside you all the interest? Where How deep is the rabbit hole of vaping? Like, the vape convention, what the what's what
are the WebEx? Well in this case it was mainly vape juice suppliers and vape stores and, and like Chinese companies that manufacture vapes or getting together and working out deals and stuff like that. But there was also I was interested in it because I think compared to last year, Tony the second year and already big cigarette companies sliding into it. So if you went last year it was a lot more of a kind of a cowboy thing for want of a better word where it's like all these companies haven't heard of and you know, grassroots top things and already and we're like one year the you'd like Big cigarette companies have realised Oh, this is if we've got to get involved in this thing
is money there yet?
Have you ever smoked a cigarette before?
just not. I haven't watched mining when he was trying to use
it, but never never really like not for a sustained period, but like, I guess like anyone who's past the age of 30 probably or whatever, let alone 40 years. Yeah, just like over the years. You've whatever. Why do
people smoke? Is that the ultimate poser? Move smoke?
I don't know. Well, actually, one interesting thing about vaping is that because it's brand new, there hasn't been settled even on exactly what the stereotypes are of vapours. So when I'd like message people, like friends, I go home, often New Zealand doing vaping thing. I'll get back to me and they're all like different stereotypes, like hanging out with those hipsters who are vaping or hanging out and then someone else will be hanging out with bogans vaping and then someone else hanging out with those neckbeards right So
I thought they all have in common crypto
Yeah, well, I'll add that to my book of, I had this idea for my book of how seeing there's no spirit. There's no stereotypes, but it's multifaceted. It hasn't quite settled and I don't quite know what the stereotype is, like, compared with things like we're talking about dope or something. You'd be going all the you know, Bob Marley fans and all that
stuff. And now like, we were just in California, and they're all pushing back on that sort of thing. Now they're trying to you know, create the, the Apple Store for marijuana and things like
Yeah, but that's what the at least one cigarette companies trying to do with E cigarettes is the way they package their e cigarette is like the Apple iPhone and their stores in America that they're starting to roll out. I think they've only got two at the moment, but they're both like people. They look like the Apple II stores and they, I guess it part of what they're trying to do is make you not think about the nicotine and tobacco element. Love it and just, I don't know, think you're putting an iPhone in your mouth. Would you would like
Yeah. That sounds Josh would be doing it. And so when did you When was the first time you ever smoked a cigarette?
I think what yeah, I think when I was in clubs or something, we're out on a hike. And the reason I remember it was because it smoked it and I kind of got confused I took incomplete information because I remember like from the films and whatever and comic books, it's like you got you tap it, like, you know, like you tap it on the table and whatever to get rid of the ash. But I sort of attempted on my beer lake in my watch, because I just, yeah, yeah, panic door. I was just gonna want to I just was trying to like look casual or whatever it was like, and then she's like, oh, and then I like I really held it in there. That's why I remember that as my first cigarette. You go to comes at what comes up. You're doing comes well. Yeah, well get the week thing that I have no idea why they say they're running away from me. They say bored by my addict. I'm trying to escape. Yeah, so I went to cubs scouts and ventures, but, and I turned up I had nothing against it. But But I don't kind of remember it wasn't really my scene even like my parents sent me there and, and you're so young, you don't even know what your scene is. But I both like caving and hiking and doing all this stuff and smoking cigarettes. But then that but the thing I remind me remember, which had the biggest impact of at least two older kids, and they had memorizer obsessive Monty Python fans, and so we've gone these hikes, I didn't know who was on these hikes, and they'd be doing all the songs from Monty Python but kind of spinning it up a bit and then doing excerpts from all the skits or whatever. And I remember like just walking behind them and I always like you like using them as my Walkman and and then Then later on when I was a bit older, yup, bought the tapes myself and I listened I preferred the cover version because I had really sped up things and kind of cut to the chase in a lot of things and but the atmosphere the fact that that is what I mainly remember about my many years cub scouting and venturing when I was sailing and caving and abseiling, but somehow that didn't make an impact on me. But yeah, the two older guys during the Monty Python songs. That's what I remember. Are we is that dead show? You have not yet my scene was more there.
What is the scene? What did it change to younger days before you got into
Telly? Well, I think for about grade three, I just had some vibe that I wanted to do something creative. So I do like write parody songs and things and try to write comic scripts. I'm really bad at drawing. So I just tried out a lot of things I and like in primary school, I'd write skits for shows and everything. So yeah, that's a bit of a Even back then.
I mean, if you look at now, people sort of in the industry that you're in, especially Telly, you're creating visual content, they usually enter via being a filmmaker. So they took on the tools trying to film whether it's themselves or things. Do you classify yourself as a filmmaker? Was that something early days? You You thought that you were or?
Nah, I don't even know quite what I was wanting to do. But so I was just trying out these different things. And like, I tried being in bands and stuff, it's like, really awkward. It's embarrassing to say like, I sincerely was there. rapping You know, they're pretty awkward.
Music January you were Yes. I mean, you've brought those elements into a lot of the stuff that you've done
yet, but I yeah, so so I just felt fell into the documentary thing through race around the world because it was an ad on the ABC saying, or have you never been on TV and want to be a filmmaker or something like That. And so I just responded to that to the opportunity. But I'd never before that thought. I want to be in documentary like, I'm sure I'd seen some documentaries, but I hadn't really thought that hard about it.
Did you think you were a good storyteller? Ah, you singing? singer I
guess I don't know. I knew I wanted to. I didn't think I was there. Like, rescue on my laurels of being vain about it. I think I was more hungry. I was hungry to be a storyteller rather than I thought I was a good storyteller.
I think there's an intuitive nature to stories, everyone, we we learn them as kids, we grow up sharing information through story. Yeah. And so yeah, I mean, maybe you weren't thinking you were great. But there is a level of intuitiveness to storytelling that I think you can't read. How do you teach that?
I sort of knew I picked up by instinct, what things I thought people would think was Interesting and also things that other people couldn't tell them. So, straight away I realised even though when I went to go into this Hasidic Jewish school with sidewalks and everything, and straight away when I started having to produce work around the world, I realised like I had access to this, like little secret world that most people don't know about. And they it's everyone's kind of interested in peeking behind the curtains and things that are secret whether they're it's like a Freemasons or Hasidic school or a cigarette company or nightclub or something. Everyone's like fascinated by getting to peek behind the curtain of something that they usually can't see. So yeah, I guess I picked up that I had a bit of an interesting have. I have what I thought people found interesting about my experiences and then left alone all the things that I didn't think they would find interesting.
Do you think you were you were a weed kid?
I had a too easy as a kid. Now. So when I went to this primary school is state primary school and I was pretty true to myself I didn't. And I didn't think about it that hard and I never felt like anyone bullying me or saying you can't be like that. And so probably, I'd have different stories if I was picked on more as a kid. And maybe I needed to be picked as a kid in retrospect. But now at the moment I'm I'm in the last couple of years, I've ended up in writers rooms like
writing, helping people with their shows that are like,
like, thrillers and things like that. And I wrote our episode of this Australian thriller, I guess that it didn't end up being produced or whatever. But anyway, I always find that like, really fun. And so I can absolutely imagine a parallel universe where instead of getting into documentary, I just ended up being a script writer, and I'd be pretty happy. I'm not sure how much I'm motivated. I know it sounds like I'm denying it or trying to have it both ways, but I'm not sure how much like, I'm really that in love with like, I have to be the face of things or I have to be. I think it's sort of like ended up that way. And then was it easier
to put yourself sort of behind the camera to tell the story?
Yeah, well, even like these days, it's also that people who like to greenlight my work and not that interested in not me being in it. So if I was to say to Penguin, I want to write a book, but it's fiction and all this stuff like that, and it's not going to have my voice or something like that. Like, I just don't think they want it.
When you're in a writers room, yes. Can you distinguish between your voice and the voice that they need?
The cool thing about writers room is often this Several people there and you get to pick up on everyone's little obsessions and how that kind of contributes to the main project. I just give my contribution and then they can they don't have to take it they can you know, it's not my project it's theirs so but generally the thing I can bring to the table is conflict. Not not a fight in the room but where I'm just basing this on all the TV like before I did my first writers room because the show was on a sort of in the ballpark of kind of things like breaking bad I guess. I mean, not really but whatever I just like binge watched all the shows and tried to pick up the patterns and go oh my god, it's all about everything just has to be a fight all the time. And so yeah, generally I'm in writers rooms I just Michael the characters fight all the time.
So coming from like writing in Ajanta friends race relations, where it's your Baby. Yeah. And you've sort of lead the direction of it from start to finish to doing something when you're collaborating with others. What have you learned there about collaboration and how the hierarchy works or who's leading or that kind of,
oh, generally with collaborations I've found that that I maybe I've just been fortunate but it's it's not been like, Oh, well, I want the other person destroyed or like, you kind of pushing in the same direction and, and so if you trust the other people when they say are like, that's a lame idea, you kind of go Okay, well, I guess I can trust them. They're not like apt to get me that probably is a lame idea. Yeah. So it's usually not that melodramatic. I do have and sometimes you do have fights where you not fight but disagreements where you cave and then afterwards, you realise I will, right? And so that makes it confusing. I'm on my occult podcasts I just did with Audible, they do a couple things where, you know, I was pushing back and forth about whether they should be in all that they should not be in. And eventually I was like, okay, fine, put it in. And then, you know, I've got good feedback about it. So it's really good to know
what I mean, what makes up a good idea? How do you know if something's gonna be good idea?
I guess just, like instinct. And also like, if things make me laugh, or, or if, if if things are just, if I'm just curious about something.
Generally, that's a really good starting point.
What have you been curious about today, specifically, today?
And I was saying because I'm in the, the, the I'm in the world of smoking at the moment, but not smoking, but not smoking. Yeah, so that that was a bit unfortunate because the book would have more obvious Dr. It was like I'm addicted to cigarettes and and so that's why I'm looking into this topic. But it's amazing that once you start looking into a topic just every every all the stories come out all your friends come out and and
yeah, is it do you start obsessing or is it just focus thought it's
about taking up smoking for the ball?
I did I absolutely would if I thought it would ring true. So a lot of lot of times when I'm like throwing myself into box because that's what the audience wants and also the publisher, they want me to be like part of the story. And then I have to really think about whether an audience is going to take it as sincere or not. So that's that's the problem with me trying to get addicted to cigarettes. Whilst I did get briefly addicted to nicotine toothpicks at the expo in New Zealand, she's meeting with Yeah, it's just the toothpicks doused in a next nicotine and so you go like that and then you can start chewing on them a bit. And then I like to 10 in a row. And then I was like all jittery and like Yeah, I was kind of like mumbling about buzzing about the Expo. And it was good. And I was madly like recording all of it
gives you like a psychic caffeine hit kind of
Yeah, I remember what I was babbling I was talking about because on a previous TV show I'd done I'd taken pod that I yeah, that hallucinogenic that some Native American a take and you have the solution. Dream and I'll anyway so I was walking around the bay pics. Oh, last week after jittery on these nicotine toothpicks displaying. Oh my god, this is such a crap sequel. What are sort of like what a disappointing sequel like going to high od in Arizona. And but now I'm just jittering around on nicotine toothpicks at a vape Expo.
Yeah, so hopefully that they'll probably make it to the book I guess
the is nicotine actually bad for you. So you know smoking the other smoke on your lungs they added sheet but then the nicotine itself.
So I think the simple answer the like the nuanced answer is the thing with nicotine is it it's addictive but it's not actually it's not what is dangerous what's dangerous is inhaling like carcinogens in different forms. Having said that one Asterix and keep in mind I'm a humanities student and wasn't paying attention and so definitely do due diligence on anything I say. I think there are now some scientists who saying no there there is a harm to nicotine beyond it just being addictive. So but what is nicotine? It's an in my god I compliment anthesis it's an extract from tobacco leaf back It's not really, when it's an it's an extract from tobacco. Yes, but it's not. It's not these where it gets confusing because the thing that gives you cancer and cigarettes isn't the nicotine. That's an extract from tobacco. It's the tobacco leaf in it, that when it's when you inhale, the carcinogens of the smoke, and this is where it gets really. Like you can tell I'm really hemming and hawing and trying to think. Because
if you had a good time, you'd
be out because the whole thing with vaping like the controversy is about whether inhaling things into vaping form is as dangerous as inhaling smoke. And then when it comes to vibes, it's not even. There's like different forms of vibe. So there's this thing called by there's this vapour as we understand it, then there's these new things called heat, not burn tobacco, where you're inhaling a viper of tobacco and then the people who produce that argue that that's so But
so what do you want to get out of like, on a book project like this? What what's success look like? What do you actually want to end up with?
I have to go on a mad rollicking adventure. And I'm a bit bit
I'm a bit thinking about, like, showing my hand with this with this book yet cuz I'm still sort of trying to get into places but but generally it's a it's about the company's leaning into the vape scene, this scene that sort of grew up a bit organically and so what the consequences of that are going to be, but I promise you, it's going to be like funny and a
point of view. Do you go in with Hey, I've got a point of view, you know, like you're watching Michael Moore. Yeah, Doc. Oh, and you know, that it's sort of like edited and that sort of building a case. Are you going to set that up as like, Hey, this is my case. And then I go explore,
I think Yeah, I think so. People don't People that really don't put up with me being moralising a lot, which is kind of annoying. What does that mean?
There's more a lot like,
like, if I did a, like, goddammit people don't like Nazis. But I promise you if I put out a book where I'm like, you know what? Screw Nazis, and I'll set friends whining.
Some people just don't put up with me. moralising a lot, so so I always, I guess I try to just get obsessed with something. And then, like, Yeah, I like I like exploring all the contradictions and all the ambiguities, and all the reasons why things don't fit together neatly. So like in my last book was about extremism. I guess I kept on doing things where I'd find these right wing extremists who weren't white. And so then it would like it's just like, awkward to read because it's like, you know, if you're reading about extremists, it's like odd. It's a real it's really easy and comfortable to read. If you're talking about like, the classic neo nazis. This is a minority, but then it's like, oh, just like this, like evangelical Christians in Australia from a minority group, you know, electro Lankan group, and they don't like Muslims, and they're out protesting Muslims. It's like, suddenly it's, it's all a bit awkward. And yes, I like poking into that. And, I don't know, 40 inches like that as much anymore. When I was young, everyone's like people on the left, I loved all that stuff, where you like, bring up all the contradictions and about how things rest easily. I remember when I was on Triple J, we'd have this informal irregular segment, which was called clash of political correctness, where there's like an issue. And it's just awkward because, like the one I think about is in, in America, that that, you know, the Cherokee tribe, church, Native Americans, they decided that within their tribe, they were black Americans who were the descendants of Slaves that had been owned by the Cherokee Indians. So which already sounds weird that the Cherokee Indians had black slaves they did anyway and anyways, that they decided that they were going to kick the these black Americans out of their tribe because of all these benefits you get if you're a Cherokee, like, you know. And so then it became like this weird, awkward thing of Hang on, do you believe in indigenous self determination? In which case you're racist against black people because they're kicking them out of the tribe? Or do you believe that black people should remain in tribe in which case you're don't believe in self determination because you're telling the Cherokee Indians what they can and can't do? Isn't this just all media now?
Is this what every story
Oh, you maybe it is. Maybe it maybe it is, but yet like, but I think I think amongst sort of my little, in a very broad sense, the kind of people would be interested in my perspective, like, people like things to be clear cut and neat. Now and explainable in a tweet. And then if you're a bit of, I guess, I guess I'm a bit of a troll Like what? Why, like that thing where I was talking about the Cherokee Indians kicking the black Americans out of their tribe like I'm, you know, it's, it's really interesting and worth talking about. But yeah, there is an element where it's like, I'm saying it because, you know, yeah, it kind of has to open your brain up and being stimulated a bit or something. But yeah, I'm not sure people like that anymore. Woody, what do you think of veganism?
veganism seems like the hot thing everyone's talking about it. It's either you're pro veganism or a lots of meat. And there's the documentary game changes on Netflix.
Or it's the connection to climate change. So they're definitely Yeah.
I reckon there's some issues where I think about if I had a girlfriend or a wife, who was this, could I go along with it and I can, I could go along with Wife, if she was a vegetarian or vegan, I could easily adjust to that. But also she was. She hunted her own meat, and then brought it home. And I could also live with that. So I'm clearly not a fundamentalist enough about veganism, by the way.
We talk about content offer content. So creators these days, living a life where everything is geared towards capturing a moment, when you've been capturing moments along your journey for you know, for 1520 years. Is there a sense when you're because I think there's a there's a disconnection when you have offer content approach when you're in a rally and there's All right, guys with Nazi tattoos on your neck when you like. It's almost like behind your behind your face looking at like it's the TV. Is there a sense that you disconnected when you're in these moments when you're getting crucified in the Philippines?
Like are you
legitimately experienced Or you going you thinking Telly, Telly, Telly, Telly camera
angles camera angles is described is sort of both so it's not insincere because I'm interested in these things because I'm interested in them. So I, I'd be reading about the outright or about religion or whatever. We got the you know if I worked at an accounting firm here, but yeah, they don't want the rubber hits the road and you're out there like, like this clicking away in your head.
Well, I guess the the other side of that is, are you reducing the actual perception of danger in these situations based on the offer content?
are so am I not aware of what danger I mean? Yes, I think that's true, where it's usually I'm back home couple of days later. And I'm thinking Oh, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have kind of looked at that.
event or two yet, but you were sort of pushing and probably, yeah, and you specifically talk about that in the podcast. Is that a all the stuff around the release forms? I find that interesting. There was a couple of times in the podcast where you say that in sign a release form? Yeah. Is this a new thing where companies are sort of more aware and cautious, or is this something that you've had to deal with your whole life?
Uh, I think
it's just dif different for different projects. So yeah, yes, I definitely had I had to get released forms to for the audible project. And then when I couldn't get get them, we had to work out creative ways around around how to kind of express what the person had expressed without broadcasting their voice, but often that's stuff is kind of fun. What about the interaction trying to get someone who doesn't want to sign a release form? You do any really good convincing where you got it across the line? Now i'm not i'm really not that good at that. So I'm pretty I'm pretty awkward even going up to people. You know, even in a non confrontational way, so yeah, the whole thing of trying to upsell someone to sign a release form
is very difficult. I mean, there's not really even a cell because what's in it for when you're walking up to a door in Mississippi, some little town and you're about to knock on it? Yeah, like what's going through your head in these situations where you're totally out of what you know, is normal. A
lot of it I'm driven a lot by shame. And, and so, a lot of it if I hadn't, if I hadn't, like signed the book contract. I'm thinking like, I just have to do this. It's like, it's uncomfortable. Like once once you've crossed the threshold, and I'm talking to the person behind the doors, because like most people aren't like it's rude or anything that they're kind of curious about why someone's asking or whatever. So once I'm finally talking to them, it's all fine but yeah, it is freaking uncomfortable. Like to knock on the door. And, but that's why I always have Like business cards printed out because it just makes it look like what you're doing is sort of this is normal. legit. Yeah, that's it more legit.
I feel like my character, if you will, I couldn't get away with putting myself in these situations would be that stand out like a sore thumb. And they'll just be like, Who's this banker? Do you feel like how do you go into these? Maybe you just be new, but how do you into scenarios where, you know, you're overseas and you've got to sort of go on the cover like, how do you not stand out? Is there any I
prefer overseas where people don't know me whilst, even like in New Zealand, when I'll say last week, like was pretty normal. And also people just google you as well. So even if they don't know you, they can know you pretty soon. And, yeah, I'd prefer not to be known but you know, just for the sake of getting the word there and then but then I kind of put that into the books because that kind of can become Like good content for the books that Yeah, the person's like really suspicious of me because they know who I am and yeah, so everything just suddenly becomes like stick you know? So
I feel like your contents been on the border of not getting cancelled but on the on the line of just really sort of not distasteful but just in people's eyes like really sort of shocking right when you got crucified I remember was it What year was that that you did the
maybe 2000 it was either 2008 or 2009
and he's rig was looking great because he trained very hard for it. But I remember the time of like in a coming through the news but it wasn't like now where there's it's it. stuff gets plastered everywhere and you see people like Chris Lily who've sort of pushed it a little bit too far. Is there a consideration of where the line is and how far you pushing up to
it. For me it's more what people will accept from their The character of me So, so.
So there was an element not so much with taste or whatever where I stopped doing pranky stuff just because times had moved on. So when I started doing that, that genre I was a bit ahead of the curve and so it was like interesting and then it just became the culture like everyone was doing it like everyone was just doing sort of pranking stuff. So then I just stopped doing it because I just thought I just kind of doesn't work anymore for me, not for other people but for me and it doesn't work was I started doing that I was like the my early 20s I people's audiences, a kind of like, someone in their early 20s is kind of a teenager so it's kind of a teenager doing these wacky things and yeah, but then you hit your whatever your past 35 and they really want to see some middle aged man. Yeah, you know, dressed up as an elf skipping around Parliament House. financing, Julie Gilad, or whatever? Yeah, so most of my decisions are more come from that perspective of more like a creative perspective of, like, is an audience gonna like this or not?
I mean, we were into prank stuff years and years ago and then it's like, I think we've as as an audience, not creating that stuff, but like, we're kind of, you know, I've talked about that youtubers 10 million subscribers built off the back of a prank channel, and now they're they vloggers with a hot girlfriend.
Yeah. Just travel the thing on shame. difference. Can you can you basically have shame and also be happy at the same time?
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I think if those balance you can, if, but it Yeah, if you're totally overwrought by shame the whole time, then no, you're not happy. How do you control your shame? I don't know. I pulled down the curtains in my flat. I shown on can see me hideaway. It's get it gets sort of like harder to hide away the more like, especially now because the internet's everywhere or whatever you can't even think about, although I never really could I like I remember after that show got crucified, I was feeling a bit. Like under the microscope, I was like, Oh yeah, I'll just take a holiday or go to New Zealand and I went to New Zealand, and I wanted to just like escape and hide. And then like, whatever, within like 45 minutes, someone said, Hey, john.
They can't hide anymore. She's the stick
coping mechanism, like do you feel that the stick makes you a character and so then you can separate between the actions of that character?
Well, yeah, I definitely have to there's no way I'd be doing like awkward, prank like thing if it wasn't for material or whatever. But I don't know there's another side to it. Like you get to like research the stuff and you have an excuse to do it. So I get like a bit. A lot of people would be kind of really cute. Curious about a murder, or about cigarette companies or about whatever and then, you know, a lot of just knock on people's doors, if you're not writing a book, so it's kind of cool that way.
Is there a difference? Like what's the main difference between every day john behind the curtains? And the john that's out and about doing interviews and speaking and writing books?
I don't know. Like, like when I write books, and I guess also for my doctors, it's like an edited heightened version of you. So, and I still like that a lot. But as I said, like lots moves on people don't like ambiguity as much anymore. I still love that my persona on TV. It was hard to figure out what was real and what wasn't. And I was like, yeah, that's cool. Like, because that's what entertainment that's what artists and but now like people really want people get really annoyed and agitated when this when this sort of like not clarity. So am I My last book about extremists. There were things where I was like trying to create this this disorienting effect, which I think I did. But like I didn't really like underline and highlight things and what you meant to be thinking is the reader. And and I got a bit of blowback for that because you leave yourself open because then you haven't said it. So therefore other people can kind of spin what you've said. Yeah. So I think my next book, I probably will be talking a bit about a bit of this stuff. We've talked about where it's about how, okay, fine, you want to know, my freaking opinion. Here it is. And I do a boring paragraph with a nice, boring conclusion that, you know, getting lung cancer is bad.
Like, do you think like, I guess, thinking about if you were to take on anyone? Yeah, it feels like the tobacco industry. It's a it's a fairly safe thing, versus maybe the The nuance of dealing with things like racism and those types of
Well, I guess, I guess I'll see. But yeah, like all all, all worlds are really interesting. And once you kind of start diving into it, there's all these little internal battles between different subcultures and different worlds within worlds. And that is that basically, I'm sure I'll get in trouble anyway.
Is there a commonality between the people who are in these subcultures deep in them? Is there a commonality in their personalities or
gravitates to definitely dislike the search for meaning. So I don't know if everyone has this yearning to have like meaning in their lives. But yeah, that's definitely like an element of like people on the far right. And get involved in the far right and in a totally different way. Totally different way if normally like, like people who are grassroots people who've got involved in vaping, or whatever is, it's like you search for Meaning like everyone everyone wants, like to feel like they're doing something that has purpose. And you know, they feel they feel like a hole in their, in their world or whatever. And then that's what's really cool if you grew up like in a religion or in like an ethnic group because a lot of that's put in place when you're young so you don't have to yearn for it or go out into strange places to find it. But then yeah, so lots of people, lots but like people on the far right that I met, when I was researching my last book, like there was an element of people that just like yearning for meaning in their life.
I think that like document like Netflix and all the documentaries that you find the ones that are really popular, so game changes, veganism, vegetarianism is heightened. Where does Scientology sit at the moment in terms of its its guess, relevance to criticism in the mainstream
I think it was really banking on being secretive. And with the internet, it's really hard to be separated anymore. So it lost a bit of its kind of psychic energy and kind of, I don't know, like guys power when suddenly, like, you can just read all their secret documents because they just uploaded a million times in different me insights or whatever. So it was a sign with the Freemasons where as soon as I was like, Hey, man, we're not going to be secretive anymore. So like, come to our open day. Like, what's the point? Like That was the point of you being Freemasons? It was it was secretive. Like that was what made it awesome. Yeah. Now you've sort of handed over the most awesome, you know, you've traded the most awesome thing, which is the secrets.
Yeah, what else is out there that? I mean? Is there any new ones that have come up? It's a weird time for new religions like Scientology to start out, I guess, the right if anyone's denotes you, john. Really
I haven't really fallen into any new coats
clouded out from the smell the vibe.
Are you an introvert?
Yeah, I guess so in some ways. Yes. I'm wise. Yes. You say it with a bit of I don't know.
What do you think? I mean, I think you're an introvert. Okay. I
some people probably have apprehension based on thing. Some people might think it's negative. I don't think it is. But I think there's negative connotations attached to someone who's an introvert in an extroverted world. I think there's there's actually great book on that. Josh.
I on it, but I haven't read it. The classic move by me.
Are you an introvert Josh, do you think? Yeah, I think so. But I think look what you're both doing, and I mean, you've forged a career out of a thing that comes across as only extroverts. Or it's an extroverted action
yet. Do you find it difficult like it on a on a Saturday night What's the ultimate john Saturday night? What does that look like?
I don't know. wandering around my house drunk
my illegal firearm
all my enemies
pretty much it I don't know
sometimes I hang out with friends so it's not yeah
but I'm not like positioning is I want you to give them the introverted but what? Seriously? What is it?
I'm What did I do? What's a perfect we talked about the perfect day to describe
it so definitely like so probably like what I'd want to do is I just want to spend time in as opposed to out but have a friend or some friends over also. And then maybe like a small group like
yes because I like I like people. Yeah, but I don't like too many people. Yeah and so having one or two people ivers good. Yeah. And then you begin to Uber Eats.
What exactly are you using me?
That he's connected with ya, I'm going on an eight day kind of
boot camp. I love it. I use it all the delivery thing I use all the time.
Yeah. And I know it's definitely tempting.
But that that is part of yet that you probably have hit upon something about how that's making that's feeding into people's introvert. The idea of ordering a coffee, I hate going up and being like, like, missing 97 and I were on a shoot earlier today. And I went to makeovers because I could just do the I didn't have to do the whole
i think it's it's whether it's like shame eating or not, so I wouldn't consider a coffee. shameful. So I'd be happy to go and order it from the barista or whatever
but your coffee order.
I have long blacks and but I also have flat whites. I'm not a not like really fundamentalists, I jump around.
Okay, sure. And so you so you find with that sort of that sort of interaction?
Sure, sure. But I think I think one of the, it's either live on a street where there's like lots of cafes or whatever, I'm happy to kind of go down there and kind of soak up a bit of
What's December like is a month for you, man, you really alike. Are you lonely?
Look at that. My job. My December Well,
this is you could have a fine, great December.
I'm going. I'm going to Well, last night. I've had a good December I guess. Because I went I spent a week in New Zealand. Two days of that at the vape Expo and then a few more days with the vape emprah of New Zealand he's like he wants like to be company. Yeah. And so I went on a bit of a You know a tool with him we went to hobbiton not just me and him but it made me and human some the American suppliers or whatever and
they vaping is the going like
oh yeah there's a little double Yeah, so that is
I kind of wish I was filming this in some way so I don't know how I'm going to describe it cuz often when you describe things it sounds like you're making some judgement. And so he's gonna be hard like he needs like we will whitewater rafting for six hours and all the vapours on their lives. Just like they had that like pipes tucked into and then lots of the vaping all the time and they vapour around the workplace and everything yeah, so it's definitely a thing
we went to we went to a friend's office is is built a quite a big business got, you know, 15 employees, and he's general manager comes out of his office just is being plume vibe. I just thought there was something so comical about him, like kind of talk shows on indoors, this huge cloud coming up. There's some sort of like mass Mad Mad Men modern day man I just couldn't help but laugh at it
that what's with the whitewater rafting? Okay
so you know I say that I'm taking my dissemble is good despite you trying to paint me a lunatic loner loner where I spent a week in New Zealand like that was last week and those whitewater rafting that it's just because it was organised I don't I've never whitewater rafting before but then so I've come back and then this is stretch of late December where you can't really work because everyone is out of the office and all that stuff like that. So I thought I'd go do a health kick because you've been around what I've done health Yeah, yeah, I'm quite good at
like, where does the house kid come from?
It usually because I have so much in here I have to appear on TV or something like that. But I've
did you last 12 or 14 kilos or something like it and it wasn't that you were holding a Hape? Yeah, but you got he got super late. You're doing the chicken and broccoli. got to a point you're cooking chicken in the microwave. Yeah, that's fine.
Yes, I've done that probably half a dozen or more times where I'm not I'm not a real shame thing. Yeah, I'm not really that into exercise, but I am. I'm, I can kind of get obsessive about something so, but then it kind of like becomes your life like well, like when I was like losing weight for the TV show. It's sort of like you plan your day around it. So I find it really hard to multitask like exercise to lose weight and also not be a lunatic.
So what do you think about because I used to be 120 kilos I
what's your needs to stay indoors? windows their blinds down?
What? What What is your relationship with food?
Yeah, I've got a bad relationship with food. So yeah, yeah. So part of going on the eight day. whitewater rafting is I'm just thinking, because I guess for a lot of people, it's like, oh, I want to see the beautiful, whatever it is, and even know what it is. scenery. Yeah, but yeah, for me, I'm thinking a bit like when I was training with you guys, this is really cool. It'll be like this eight day boot camp where I'm like, six hours a day I'm paddling and stuff.
I think it is a good idea. You can't really eat while Yeah.
Yeah, but I guess from the shame what people have been opening my eyes to was it's like, if that comes from that place of shame, is it actually Sir, if you're like smashing yourself? Yeah. Is that positive long term? Yes. Yeah, you think so?
Yeah. Because I've got, I've got healthy enough, like, quite healthy enough times to know you feel better. And so it's not like it's not like some abstract thing. What do you think of balance then? How do you because everyone says if you just need a balanced diet, do I? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably okay. Nothing against that. But there's also nothing against they would I think they would do kind of exaggerate the dangers of getting healthy a bit much like when like it The overall scheme of things it's not like the problem with the world is too many people are trying to get healthy me up my problem. And so, yeah, so it's just, it's fine. Do you think there's a difference between health and weight loss? You know, obviously on some we have to get some experience about that. But then also don't kind of like I don't I don't try to overthink it that much. So know that there is a connection between weight loss and health. And that you'll just be one will depending on you know, obviously these outlier cases where it's like not like that, but the generally speaking, you know, if you're a bit wobbly, actually,
like yeah, like if you lost, you lost 122 how much you weigh? 93 now,
how, like, why even have some like abstract intellectual conversation about where the All the pros like clearly like, I felt good,
I felt good doing it but then people say on it like that's not like your obsession isn't good like your approach isn't right like you're you're eating dark chocolate and that's great but that's not a proper meal you need a meal. Okay, well
office, everything you know, in moderation or whatever but
he had a bit of a cop out
the whole moderation thing. Are you a guy of moderation?
Yeah, no, I'm not.
I'm against the people.
The moderation sheet, you're spinning the same shit.
How there's some outlier cases where like if someone is already healthy and is have a healthy weight, you know, that's my strict moderation. If someone's already healthy have a healthy weight. Like it's probably not handy to have people saying, Oh, yeah, it's totally cool if you try to lose weight, but like everyone else is just a bit wobbly. Like it probably
probably is fine. I used to always consider moderation balance as people not wanting me to lose weight. Yeah, like almost a thing of like, you're holding back the actual secret of just cut out carbs.
Yeah, not either. Yeah, you're right to be paranoid. And
I think what you might be saying is a simplistic view or a simplistic piece of advice from somebody. moderation is like what your mom's is when you have stolen seven bars of chocolate? Yeah, smash them. The long term, the long term results for moderation could be the the answer. It's the hardest thing that Yeah, because I think in the cases like you were training months with me and and you got set results, and I trained a bunch of people at the same time they got no results, but they weren't as hell bent and obsessed on achieving something and doing everything that required you could make you lose 30 kilos if you listen to everything I said, would you even want to episode
gotta do eight you will lose john didn't
I mean, I told What today?
Yeah, I'm a bit been a benevolent dictator.
I was a dictator and it worked in that job yeah, you look great money and being a creator I think young creators these days it's a harder maybe maybe harder route to you know how to track to go down to convert your filmmaker or storytelling abilities into cash struggling
artists have been around for a long time I
guess I guess I mean, what's your view on money and being creator?
Like What's your relationship? No, no, it definitely definitely seems
easier to get stuff published these days or to film stuff because equipments much cheaper and you cannot upload anything to YouTube and you can write anything on medium but yet when it comes to converting that to money that can be more difficult than in the old days, even amongst it like like in the old days, I guess, like in my early 20s. I meant just slipped through. Where I was one of the really lucky ones who like people wanted to commission work from so and and there is an element that the lucky ones these days don't get paid as well as, like when it comes to
like if you're a well respected writer or something and then whatever was the Guardian, I don't know who I don't know what the rate is. But you know, like the right per word hasn't gone up since the 90s. So yeah, I mean, more people can make videos, that doesn't mean that if there's more people making videos, it's harder. The pool of money is being accessed by more people. Lowering the amount of the people can make was probably a long tail of people making
absolutely nothing as well. Yeah, like happy just being a hobby.
I don't think it's that though I don't think people are making less money because the pools bigger or something like that, or whatever you said. It's just publishers can get away with not paying people. Why is that though? supply and demand more people, right? Yes, something like that. But I mean, it probably will kind of what do you call it recalibrate or something? Because I don't even remember like BuzzFeed has gone through a few stages where like, their first thing was, Oh, well, we don't need any writers because we just need listicle writers. And then then they were searching for writers that had sort of like a reputation, because then that made the brand look stronger or whatever. So yeah, I don't know enough about the topic. But yeah, I find it really frustrating not not me personally, because I fortunately have figured out a way to stop whining on behalf of myself on behalf of other people. But there is something so frustrating about how people go on the internet, because they want to read the news and like find out things and somehow so the age in Australia and the Sydney Morning Herald in America than Neil tonnes of whatever they're the ones who are providing all this yet, somehow They don't get all the money. You know, it's like Google AdSense and Facebook or the equivalents. Like, why do they? I just don't get it because it's not it's not like newspapers are going out of business because people don't want to read newspapers like well, newspaper sites, it's they're going out of business because Facebook and Google have figured out how to take all the money and and the money doesn't stay with the the age and the New York Times therefore, that Yeah, they can't pay writers as much
if you had to do your career again. What What do you think? What medium would you choose? How do you think you could find success in it again?
Well, at the moment, I'm really enjoying. I've this this fantasy world that for some reason, I know how to write fiction, and like screenplays or something and then I can just sit at home and the hidden and write it says the night I feel
like you're revealing crying and
crying in December. So I'd like to do that, I guess. But
where's the appeal? What's the appeal in that? Is it the action of being alone writing?
Ah, I don't know. It's just more like you feel vulnerable, like walking out the front door. So it just be a balance to that, except I just have to like, Count your blessings and not be so whiny or whatever. So the reason I have to do the work the way I do it is because the way I have worked out how to show stories is I go out there and I record conversations and I record my thoughts in the moment I'm living them and then after I piece it all together, and then it becomes a story that people want to read. And that's, I can't do that without going through that process. So I couldn't I I had to write I mentioned before I wrote this one hour, kind of episode of television is fiction that was thriller, or whatever. Anyway, so I was in the writers room with the other riders and kind of like plot out with the general gist of the episodes or whatever. And then when I got home, I still treat I had to write actually write things myself, I still treated it as if it was, I was doing a documentary. So for instance, it was a bit where these guys break into a car. And I was like, man, and I had to break into a car. And then so I put out on Instagram. I said, Oh, does anyone here know how to break into a car, and then, you know, got the game, you know, whatever, 15 minutes later, and then like an hour later on down the street, with these two guys, telling me how to break into a car. And I'm sort of taking notes and recording what they're saying. And then and then I go back to my flat, and then I sort of like write the same based on that. So I still even with fiction, I still need to treat it like doctor because I just don't know how to do it any other way.
I love it. So you live the same yet so you can actually reflect it.
It's great. What makes a good subject in regards like the person what do they need to bring to the table?
Well, One really cool thing about writing about crime Which is obviously not good for the victims or for the person put in jail for stabbing the victim. But one of the good things when you're a writer is that it's an basically that like, there's no boring murders. And also, everyone's interesting, nearly everyone's interesting and it's just a modern seem interesting generally because they're not putting this sort of like high pressure situation where they have to reveal themselves or have to sort of like really, you know, test what they believe and everything. So, so many people are interesting it and in fact, one of my regrets of my my last week in New Zealand was because also focused on the cigarette companies. When I was hanging out with all the vaping people, I feel like, I was too reductive. And I was like, ah, we're going to hobbiton that's that hobbit film set away. And he goes, I won't record this because it's not about vaping even though and then just when I came back Hamas discolour should have just recorded more of that because people are just interesting. And anyway, so you people are pretty interesting and so but situations were that are interesting is where is where it's something that's generally hidden from us. And you figure out a way to get in there and peek behind the curtain. And yeah, that's what's interesting.
What about people who do stick so you talked about you got to stick make for good characters or does it make it harder?
is sometimes they liked it there is a there is a thing these days where if I'm so used to it once watch reality TV and, and also everyone like uploads all their thoughts all the time on the internet. So everyone's in a performance all the time. So sometimes that isn't great. That can be kind of like, if I'm meeting someone and they they're doing that, then that that's not always great. Although I guess it could be great. If else somehow made that they thing you know, like they're doing steep but, but I have occasionally like I've gone to parties or whatever. And then the first back and forth with people is like a bit of sarcastic stuff. And then I kind of want to ease into just the normal conversation and they won't let go. And so then it's like two minutes later, three minutes later, and no matter what I do to try to like land them on like I can we ease into like the normal conversation and not the thing where you say that sarcastically that's the reverse of what you really mean. And like, yeah, I can't Yeah, that can be
that can be not great.
I think I've observed that and with you and people in the gym, and we went down Carla street where the gym was, it may be based on the stick that you put out, you know, the jogger, the prankster, someone pushing the boundaries, people like I remember hearing one person in particular how that speak to you. And it was that sarcasm and like, you know, it's Like, we're it's the jog. We got the joke here. I think they're doing improv. Yeah.
It's like yeah,
you know, it's like I'm I'm a worse person than them in general, so I'm not like judging them or whatever. Like, I wish I was such a good person that the worst thing about me was I did shake.
Yeah. Well, I think if we look at characters is the stake so you probably have a better interpretation of my stick than I do.
Definitely. As your sticky never talk about having stick. Your hair is your stick.
I think if I was to pinpoint it for myself, it's like it's almost a confident payday.
I haven't left john. Yeah, I'm still at
Not at all. I trained myself. I trained myself but like I went to PT. Always a pity. can't shake it.
overthinking? Are you someone who gets into that?
Not really denying it, but yeah. That's probably why I should get married or something because then you just have to get get married have a kid and then like other things will just fill up the space and then you won't have the luxury of overthinking yeah
it's a good point what about self talk you talk about all the shame and all that do you actually like if you if you actually just because I think there's a sense that you you can definitely take your what you say on face value yet at face value it's funny it's taken or something but I guess I enjoy the next level of like someone who lives in that space yet could also go through my like, I guess you've got like the super highs but also like the lower points where it's not serving you. Do you feel Do you feel that or if you created some magical world where you can be negative to yourself and still feel be okay with it?
Oh, no, no, no, I'm not okay with it. But I do. I do try to ride it out and not fight it too much. I don't know if he's quite what your Asking but I remember when the last election between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and they just became a point where people joining of people aren't listening to her anymore. Like she can try to come up with the best idea and she can have the best arguments but like it's just not flowing her way for any more so so I definitely like feel that like where I kind of put projects out and I feel like I'm on you know, I'm riding the wave and then there's something else where I feel like it's not quite connecting with an audience as much or and but yeah, and rather than fighting it, I realised like there's nothing you can do about that. So you sort of just have to kind of ride it out and be and sort of like look at the long game or whatever.
What about like, so like, I'm thinking of my own personal examples, shame or whatever associated with like
now I guess like the the day to day shame or being like, I don't go out enough or I don't do this right. Oh,
yeah. I have a lot of shame around. I can't believe when I look at the book like that I've written these books because
across the nation Do you do get into?
I do. I do procrastinate. I'm both lazy and a workaholic. I don't know how it works or whatever. But probably, I'm sort of quite proud of my last book how I i from day one, because usually with my books I can be confused about when I started it, and then when it finished or whatever, but my last book about extremist I know the day, I first went to do my first day of research, because it was based on this rally, and I can just type into Google or that really happened on the fourth of may 2015, or something like that. And then I stopped writing the book, basically, the day Donald Trump was elected, so that's another date or whatever, and then the book, but a release date, and I can't believe you know, like, how many words are in a book, or somehow God damn wrote this book, like in 12 months, and then it got out a bit, just a bit after that or whatever. So That seems really weird to me because I know inside me, I'm really lazy and a procrastinator so
that I can all feel better than because my, like that internal voice of like, if I can do that, yes that is that sort of the the contrast that makes it okay.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I just I reckon they'd have to be just a little nudge and I'd be so much better at working. I don't know what I would have done wrong. But yeah, but at least but I have got the stuff out there eventually. And then then you find out particularly in writing is like authors such procrastinators. So over at penguin like I'm feeling guilty because I'm like two weeks late with some draft or whatever. And then you just hear the story that there's this other writer and like they four years later, I'm like, What the hell was I like pulling my hair out in two weeks later, but yeah,
the the format of podcasts and interviews, because you are an over thinker and you enjoy the matter and you enjoy sarcasm. Yep. Do you find it hard to lean in? format. So if you see something, so say for like a podcast, some of the interviews go into this sort of deep past and going into, like, you know, what were you like as a kid? If you find that you push back on formats, or cliches?
No, no, not at all. I mean, podcasts are really cool. And and so if I'm like pushing back on anything, it's just like a regular person would be like, I don't really want to like show my bad side. You know, I don't want to show my emotional 120 kilogrammes. And so yeah, it just be that but you know, what I'm really into now, which isn't quite podcast is voting at home vaping I like to I'm sure everyone does this where you like fall down these YouTube rabbit holes, about subjects that you have no interest in, like on the surface level. But then on this deeper level, because everything's about like tribalism and likely wars and pettiness and revenge or whatever. And so you start like listening listening to these things. And then like the soap operas that are kind of nourishing you and so the thing at the moment and it's a really great time to be into these last couple months and I'm I have nothing against science fiction. I have nothing against Star Wars or Doctor Who or whatever, it's just not my jam you know I've never been into it and I don't know how it started, but I fell into the YouTube embittered former Star Wars obsessive who now thinks you know Disney has ruined it all and and that there's there's quite a few of those channels say this is like fundamentalist Islam alternatively like really into Star Wars but they they just think Disney has just screwed it up and that the last get I ruined it all. And there's now there's this moment where because the last films about to come out, I think like next week or whatever, but it's been like building in this kind of a apocalyptic sense, you know, like if someone's in a cult, and it's like the end days is going to be this stage on the December the 12th or the whole world's going to end and there's like this this throbbing kind of world going on. So yeah so for that that little scene they've been like building and building and building for months because it's it's all going to end next week where rises Jeddah and they really want it arises Skywalker and it's like they really wanted to push it to the ship because they've been building and building and, and, and they they kind of obsessive and scary in a way because I know the names of like the crew members on you know, get you know that I'm George Lucas. George Lucas is like, why do you know the name of the you know, the second ad
on the mandolin or whatever
I mean, they putting the focus into something that you would have been Yeah, is actually a job for you. I think like starting out as a creative it's you need to have passion for projects, because you don't have any body of work to prove that you should be paid or you should be signed to write a book. Is there a few books in TV shows? Are you doing passion projects that aren't connected to someone signing you on for us? Or?
Well, no, that's not true. I do a lot of what do you call it? Is it spec work? I don't know. What do I do? I do a lot of things where I'm like writing up ideas, that sort of whatever reason end up going nowhere. So I'm doing that all the time. And and I remember I was going when I was writing for this magazine, good weekend, and I was doing my crime stories for them. I was doing a lot of poking around where I'd like turn up the court like something through someone else and turn up the court and you spend like the day in court and that that thing wouldn't go anywhere. And my last book about extremists, the starting point was exactly exactly that way. It was just on I saw roll into my Facebook feeds this like of it was like this left wing counter rally though the skinheads are going to be on the streets of Melbourne and I was like what's that and you know outside Parliament House and I was like wow this is crazy like skinheads like I don't think I've seen a skinhead except you know in romper stomper or Yeah, and so I just like got on the train that morning and you know, just hung out there and sort of like took it all in and then realised there was a story there that kind of ended up and then it started off as tweets I was writing all these sarcastic tweets about the the skinheads and stuff like I met the rally here this morning at the reclaim rally in Melbourne. If you see me come over and say hail and all this stuff, and then someone from I think the Herald Sun was contacted me and said, Can you write an article about that because like, it always would tweet so and then I read an article about that. Like you said I'd hundred would pay something and then through the That. That's when Yeah, went to penguin. And then we like became a book or whatever.
So So yeah. So
I do a lot of poking around also do I write up so many ideas? If you spoke to a couple of the producers I work with Eric and you'd be surprised. Like how many like, because you get these quarter like fishing exhibitions from other networks or whatever words I john, love it, can you please, please any idea or whatever and say then you spend like whatever week coming up with Sony and kind of ends up going nowhere. And yes, I've got quite a big filing cabinet filled with that.
And so yeah, so you keep them these hard copies of the ideas. Are they happening in a sort of controlled environment where you're like, Okay, ABC, want me to present a bunch of ideas, I'm going to come up with 15 or is it like you're on the tram, and if you've come up with something
I don't know. It's a bit of both or whatever the Yeah, so I often they want something that you know, in the ballpark in the themes of my proof. So yeah, obviously I became a bit of the ASF forensic guy who knows a lot about the outright and extremists and ISIS and stuff. So I got a lot of people allegedly wanting ideas around that which I kind of wrote up many times in many different ways and just go nowhere.
What about like notes? Like a you on your iPhone? Yeah, I mean,
yeah, I write notes or whatever. And I jump around all the time. Like sometimes I'm convinced I need to write it on, like pieces of paper. And then you're just going into your jacket.
Okay, I've got this just in case like, I had the second let me just write something. Yeah, left handed.
Hundred and 20. How much of that like say how much thought goes into that because I know Jerry Seinfeld uses yellow legal pads I love his job
and that's part of the processes when you're you don't have an idea is like you become obsessive about stationery I do that all the time.
But I think that how much obsession has gone into like what does that say about you the
night I think it's part of the ritual it's it's part of the ritual where but I always find it is kind of annoying because when you have your killer idea it's like oh my god and then pen and paper or whatever and just go into worse and get this like crappy borrow and scratchy thing and then you scratch it on the thing and then that becomes the idea. It's like, I wish I'd written that idea with like a quill or you know, a fountain pen or something. Yeah, I've gone through all of that stuff of like buying an expensive let me pan and buying
fountain pens are actually quite hot to us. Yeah, that yeah, that
What I do, I do, I've done I do the my friends over there I do the scribble and and then scan. Okay, yeah, so I when I was on the plane from New Zealand back here I scribbled some ideas on a on a serviette just like people imagining an artist to do and then all barefoot
and then there and then I just took a photo of it and I scanned it. What do you think the biggest misconception is about you?
I don't know. Because I don't know what people think about me or whatever.
Well, it's funny cuz like, I know all the questions I'm asking like, are it annoying to know? That because I know that like, I feel like you wouldn't have an answer you don't know. Like, you don't really have an answer.
I think it's because there's all these different versions of me in my work, so I wouldn't know. So before I like did the triple guy radio show. And I was just doing like TV work. really a big control over like my image, because you can just run this stuff and you presented and edited. And I always liked how that version of me this kind of heightened version of it wasn't really me moment it was kind of an element of me or whatever. And so imagine back then I could say, people think I'm really like, scripts and stuff when really I will. But then like after 10 years of memory on Triple J, no one knows. That's a part of me too. So I don't know. I don't know. Why. What do you say? What's up? What's up? Pacifica? Man? I'll tell you whether it's true or not.
What's your perception Josh of john.
You're like a creative over thinker who enjoys the friction of putting yourself in situations and then writing about it. Yes, you are really interested in people but also can deal with not having them at a times you I just find the tonight but I think that that's probably like the standard thing. I think that like I've, what I'm curious about is I feel like a potential I've bought into the character of john Safran. And so what I'm trying to do is work out those the nuances.
I know that's pretty right. Yeah, I
maybe catch public transport.
Yeah, maybe maybe in five years time, I can have turned things around so that precipitants totally at odds.
Because it's like, oh, no, I didn't think about that. And you know, I'm just middle of like,
Tommy says about every interview I'm merely ask, do you see therapist?
No, no, but people tell me I should say, bad.
Why? Because this is because Tommy always says, You always ask people why haven't you gone and I'm like, Oh, well, I don't know. It seems like a lot of admin was the
just feel like I might be a man feels like this. I just feel like if I was to talk to a therapist did Two things that be like sharp john, you do know, people come in here where they've got like real problems like where they've been, like tied to heater by their parents or like 10 years and hit over the head and then you're coming in here with your stupid like, I'd be thinking that on the one had and then on the other hand I record my problems would just be like really embedded cringy like, embarrassed to say them. So it's a combination of they're not important enough or they're not big enough compared to other people's problems plus I reckon they're more cringy than other people's
bro, what about vulnerability? How is that played in your life? Because there's full vulnerability Yeah, there's a lot of that.
I reckon. This doesn't quite answer your question, but I have noticed that
shit but I'm gonna fucking water off.
When I did like race around the world and that early stuff, there's a lot of me like oversharing like for instance, talking about being really hurt the girls is broken up with me and that's why I'm in West Africa with these Voodoo priests I'm gonna get a voodoo curse but I know I know the bit of like oversharing like that but when I did it back then people oversharing wasn't a thing because it wasn't like social media and specially like man oversharing was not a thing so sharings email and
so when I exactly so when I did that part of the reason was it just seemed really odd that you got on TV someone like what the hell like like indulgent in a funny way and whatever and describing just like, why is this person like talking about the thing and also a guy talking about it, but now life has moved on so much that when you look back at it I just saying like, don't like because every YouTubers like
like if you look back my work is like a fine job. But why aren't you crying and you know, and all that.
What made you do it then? Or there's just no I
don't like creative instinct. I just thought it was
It just seemed kind of energetic and sort of funny and inappropriate and stuff like that. Just
a few now do you think what are the what are the tools if that's like a mechanism like oversharing is a tool or some other tools that you use now?
I always and it's really hard to do when you're in the midst of it because you don't have the bird's eye view of it all but I just try to record what I'm thinking about the the matter at hand at any point. And it's always it's always really helpful because then when you have to write you've got a record of how you have how you're thinking on day one is this totally at odds with what you think it day 13 and stuff?
How would you do that? Now if you were to give us a demo a demo be the be the sort of the like, you know, the reflection on us talking about it,
is I'd say our I get your like for my So first of all, I just be thinking Oh, how can this be helpful? For my book on smoking, so I'd be trying to get your opinions on what vapours were. And then yeah, and then I'd record that, I guess. And then I wouldn't make a comment about your weight. You know, one of the annoying things about writing these are most annoying thing about writing is that you're not writings about describing things. And you're just not allowed to it just seems really bad to kind of mentioned that the person you're being interviewed you're interviewing is sort of
what I think you mentioned, I think you mentioned in the audible podcast, I definitely the fat was one of the like, I think you use fat a few times for the fat Australians or whatever. 97 to remember what was Yeah, it was, I can't remember what the actual word was. But yeah, it was, like foreplay or something. Because there's a whole movement now. A friend of mindset of stop listening to your podcast, because you talk a lot about food and fat and there's a whole thing around like, the it's like intuitive, intuitive intuitive eating. Is that when you just eat what you want, yes, the anti diet thing, but there's a whole chat there's a bunch of chapters around culture and how all these conversations around fat and the language that we use frames up that shame. Yeah, it's almost about like, you know, letting go of that type of thing. Like how much of that I want description of this chubby person, this fat person is linked to self image.
Absolutely. But I think in the, in the, in the, in the pod cast in the occult thing. I'm talking about the how my dad came back from Vanuatu on this on the spot And he went on a tour and his whole thing was about how like everyone on the boat that strange boat was like maybe 10%. If that if people were of like a normal weight and everyone else was either obese, obese or morbidly obese or then or just merely a little overweight or whatever, yeah,
but there was another one that was like, almost factor.
In that I told you about how I laugh at
it. I laugh at it, but then I find the things I laugh at with different types of people. They can be like, Oh, you know, hey, laughing at that. You think it's funny? Like, that's actually like, you're actually really sad about that.
Is that gonna be Yeah, but even that thing done I mentioned that it's like, I put it back on me about how I'm trying to lose weight on the trips. I'm like, in some skinny guy, like, can you do like,
the fat but that's my hope. That's what Tommy and I talked about, like, I feel like yeah, I can talk about it because I've been fat and still feel that I'm But then I guess there is that sort of the other angle which is sort of around the culture and us talking about it that then perpetuates the the issue potentially. And I think it's
I think it's my thinking and not I know you're not overthinking it, but you're, if that's the worst thing about you, and I feel like you're a bad person, like it's, it's not your fault that other people are feeling that that's pretty bad. Are you talking about food and eating and about formerly being 140 kilogramme
weight on the other side of all these things it could be helping somebody in some way is someone who talks need laughs about how they were fast and that could actually help them like is a lot of side to this.
empathy. Where does empathy fit with what you do?
Well, no one ever no matter how I write things, people don't really find that I'm writing them really empathetically about people but I don't. I tried it. I tried it. But people don't read it that way we trust means I'm failing at me like everyone, always I'm just like getting the most scalding kind of evisceration of people and stuff like that, when really I'm thinking, Oh no, I just did a little bit of a funny little quick or whatever like that.
I was watching a VCs love on the spectrum, and set which is all about people with autism going on dates. And since watching that, I can only look at the world through people and where they are on the spectrum. Because I think that potentially I've got like a very slight bit a, that idea of being a bit disconnected between what you think you're doing and what you actually are doing and how many people talk about, but how many times that come up in your life around autism or the spectrum and things like that.
Oh, you like you know, long winded way?
Yeah, not only once except
on this everyone else when
I'm sorry. I realised everyone else had been thinking and
my business manager teacher asked if I had Asperger's.
I don't know the difference between Asperger's and autism.
I think that's a it's a, it's a flavour. And so when did that, how did that even come about?
I was just working everyone else at Triple J and not on air or anything. And then I think someone mentioned it, though, don't you think you're a bit on the spectrum? And that was lovely and hard to ever come up. But ever since that came up, I've been thinking people must think that and also, I occasionally would listen back to like the Triple J podcasts. And I would, I would say, Oh my god, like, I sound like a crazy person or something.
So was it a mood? Can you be on the spectrum? on a Tuesday, Bo Bo? Bo counter Wednesday? I know.
It's always there.
It's always here. I think it's interesting. Do you hear from her? I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying what this format specifically? Yes,
sir. We're talking we're getting better on The question that which I think,
yeah, sure, why don't
you like one?
Like one drink
a mic and he said something to me on the phone yesterday where I was going. I think I'm a drunk. Because he brought up something he saw in some. He goes, Oh, I just I heard I read that. You know, if you have one and a half glasses of red wine a night, that's okay, but not more. I don't like what's this coming from? Like? I think he thinks I'm a drunk, but I don't know. Why will they come from? Well, hey, I'm him for starting.
Because he, he had all these wines stored
in his garage from somewhere, whatever, nice. And he said, Oh, you know, do you want some of this away? And I was like, okay, whatever. So I took some of it and
then really like, whatever were you sort of a bit excited.
Now, if I was drinking wine, I'd prefer my dad. Not to No so I prefer to hand over the cash at a bottle oh yeah sure and get get the wine without my dad involved in this shameful habit at all.
So it is a shameful habit
what it could be if you're
having a nice
while you're my dad.
So he's say through this he started this narrative of like I'm into wine and I only saw it once. I love one I've got nothing against wine but I'm not like a drunk and then to how the hell has my father now twisted this set? Like
you having more than one and a half?
Yeah, and I am I know.
Okay, would you like because I was wondering like last night Oh, it was really building up the idea of i'd love like I only started drinking this year. I'm 29 Yeah, just started drinking this year. And red wine is my go to because there seems like there's something nice and I said this is Tommy. I'm like, you can't really be a drunk on red wine. And he pointed out there are many drunk. Oh, that's true. prefer red wine? And you know, I'm not
a drunk. I tell you why is because I was talking to this dude, like a science Dude, I don't know if he's actually a scientist or whatever. And he was part of his part of a pretty cool thing. It's not testing investigation, what did they are meant? I don't know. I don't know what the hell it is anyway, because I've put out on social media that I'm working on this book on smoking in cigarettes and vaping, whatever. So the trial trial, will test your clinical testing, Isabella got back to me and this one guy said, I'm at the moment working on this clinical trial we're about to go into it. Same with a vaping helps people get off things like addictions like alcohol, too much alcohol, and drugs and things like that. So I started off straightaway was thinking, Oh, this could be cool for my book, but like if I get to be one of the subjects in the thing, so I said to him, all how much you have to drink to To be an alcoholic enough to go into this clinical trial or whatever and he said, Guys well how much you drink or whatever and I said and I'll sort of I looked at the worst case scenario I said, I've had like a friend over and we'll go through the whole bottle of red wine and maybe an eye on also I've taken I've had friend over and we have gin and we'll go through like three quarters of the bottle of gin. That's a lot like the bottle of red wine. Maybe not forget about the unit. He said enough. He said that you have to it can't just be every so often. He says every day you have to be having three bottles of alcohol.
If I did to get bottles of wine at night, I'm old. It
is good. Have you looked up? said my concern with you and red wine calories. So
I was wondering because I think that gin and vodka I like it because I support alcoholism, but I'm thinking about invoke
the mighty can it be is because I guess part of the red one is I'm sort of building this poser status of I got books in front of your books. Yeah, but what is like if I was trying to be a poser and I wanted to sort of have sort of an intellectual I can Oh, yeah, the five locale, like low calorie Yeah, vodka Just saying.
It's whiskey. It's whiskey on
the rocks. Like if you're Jason Fox out, might he he does whiskey tasting and stuff.
If you're drinking gin and water or gin and soda water invoke you're just wanting a vodka. Don't need to feel different that point really taking
a bottle of gene with me on the eighth day.
You've already worked that out.
Yeah. Oh my god. What do you what do you take your lunch?
What's I really wish I said the word alcohol.
Thinking working that out because that's definitely something I would do. Yeah. Which is work out in advance. Yeah.
What do you do you pull it out like I'm vibing the people here and it's like party who told you that who
said you can bring your only going to tazzy
Yeah, but they they've got lucky YouTube video of like packing your bag and it's, they tell you all the things you need to bring
and they say oh,
yeah, they saying you can it's like that. It's like thermal underwear. Socks Dada. Bring a baulk and then yeah, you can bring up all if you want, but you have to pour it into a plastic
you have to decant it into a plastic container. Okay? This kind of takes the romance
out of it because I feel like you need like a glass and like a big circular like bomb ice thing.
Get that I think they want you to bring a box of goon
on the red one thing very quickly. How long after you open a bottle Do you need to finish it? You think?
Is that is that is tough, you know, if you
do the admission in one night,
this is a problem. This is the problem I because if you live alone, you've got the one bottle of red wine, you're not going to drink it straight away. But then it's going to go off or whatever
or whatever they say, how long does that look like that
then you can get like half photos. But then it's like you might as well give up.
During the event, your job is like, oh my god. You've got it's like as soon as you're going, Oh, I live in line and I'll get a little hospital.
Yeah, like, I think 24 hours you can have it at night and then the next night you can finish finish it off. He got the bottle from last night. Now we didn't end up doing it.
And so because I spoke to Bray, my girlfriend was saying my God. I think that she works out when I'm like really hell bent. I've worked out that as long as I'm not hell bent on having a wine. She wants to have one as soon as I'm really interested, like, yeah, let's have a bottle. Maybe not too Hi, nickname Miss 9797 a team. Producer, he got a 97 ATAR is this man? And so and Tommy didn't finish high school and I got like a 40 something. Yeah, you know what? scores? Not really? I
was like DC
We got 97 What did you get?
I didn't get a number out of 100 I got something like 300 and something that's right us yes some international school assumption now I just
got a Yeah, thank god and go to a Steiner school. Why that turn every head if it would have been I didn't need that I should want to skip the school, you know, balance things out,
or you've done right. Is that john
Safran? Thanks for coming on the show. I think the john zefram versus a cult that is that how you say a cold,
but what is it called? It's called john zefram versus
the cold, the occult the cold Hey, pronounce it a cult. OCU Lt.
OCC, you lt
Yes, I'm an audible I think I think I understand. It's, it's like free.
Well, this is a guy. Well, I signed up for audible back in like 2009 and I was on a US account. And so I've stayed on the US account. And so I paid for I don't know if it's because I'm outside
free trial through audible Australia and you can access John's for free. It's just if you like it after 30 days, you can pay it
what I understand thing we want to end this on being like really boring and not really like he's that I understand. You only need to have a Amazon Amazon account because Amazon owns audible. So you know how everyone has an Amazon account. That's like free. That's all you need. Like you don't even need to sign up for any trial or nothing. Oh, good. What I've heard.
I've seen the free trial thing, but that sounds better. I mean, I just use Josh resorbable
How about this, this is pretty embarrassing. When you look At my accounts, actually fact I feel like audible could listen to this because you're on it. And then they don't know but i on my information on the section around in settings, this is great. This is great content. Joshua's 14th Audible for iPhone. I've given it to a few friends and it's reached 40 people. So
how many do you actually
think? I think I need to just change my password. Because I totally given it to maybe 10 people can we please do it, change it and see who comes
out of the Woodworks? Yeah, and I hear an absolute Todd asked if you come out and say oh, Josh, it's um it's the guy you haven't spoken to a little while. Do you listen to audio books?
Yeah, I have the main ones. I remember he does occasionally. I had to go on this review. She didn't have to. I went on this review show on the ABC like Tuesday night book club. So we had to read several books for that. And I remember like listening to the audiobook just to speed it along.
JOHN, is there anything that the people that listen to this show could help you with the new ball? Thank
you so much for asking you that, I guess. Well, it's about the future of smoking. And so generally about how big companies are like leaning into the world of like vaping and medical marijuana and everything like that, to try to know the long and the short of it is like, if you work at a cigarette company, that'd be really handy.
Oh, what are you doing at cigarette companies? What sort of roles
marketing I guess, actually. Yeah, I mean, comes some some kind of real life
have you found any interesting why's that that communicating if you can't advertise? Yeah.
Yes, the book is
john, I appreciate what you do and the stuff you put out into the world I
thanks for ending me.
No worries, man. I've somehow reeled you into all the different things. Post training, I got you to do a video with me one that went nowhere really like a testimonial. No, it was a video boxing. And so it was like combination between fitness and then like presenting or some kind of content. You remember that? Basically. Now I've roped you into this and I appreciate you giving us your time at
No thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
more comfortable now talking about fat and just leaning into the word not to doze off Joe. Hi, the daily talk. show.com is the email address. Enjoy the rest of the day. So tomorrow See you guys