John Safran's Schtick

John: The Daily Talk Show.

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 550, and we've got John Safran in the building.

John: I thought I was here for a personal training.

Tommy: Well, funny you should say that. I was John's personal trainer for many years. I, um, I just looked because it coincided around the time of your birthday, uh, marking a, a good year. That was 7 years ago. That I was training you. Far out.

John: Oh God, yeah, it's depressing.

Tommy: What, me training you or just the time?

John: No, no, no, it's okay. No, you're a good trainer. Was I?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, we haven't—

John: you didn't like stare at your phone. All the trainers now just like do that on their phone.

Josh: Well, this is sort of pre-smartphone in a big way.

Tommy: It was— yeah, he occasionally played Snake on his Nokia whilst I was doing push-ups, but besides that, it was, um, so you came into the gym where I was working and somehow you got assigned to me. And I was— it was— it felt serendipitous at the time because I was wanting to get into television and I had no idea what you'd been up to.

John: I am having flashbacks now. Yeah. Where you thought I had all this guidance and advice and I didn't. And then you thought I was like holding back on you when really I just didn't have any guidance or advice.

Tommy: You are the OG vlogger though.

John: Oh yeah, I guess so.

Tommy: Well, it wasn't even called vlog, it was— what was it? Um, video blog, like you did video diary. This was when you did Race Around the World.

John: Oh yeah, that's true. Yes, it was the first cameras that had come out where they had the flip screen. So there was like, we were like video diaring ourselves for this ABC show, and it just seemed confusing and new and revolutionary and stuff.

Tommy: There's about 2 megapixel cameras back then. It's, um, it's interesting, like I've always been surprised at how they they, the networks, are, you know, we want high quality, but then they allow like integration of things like GoPros into feature films. Was it a consideration of the poor quality back then?

John: Oh yeah, I remember like not only this show Race Around the World, which had that, but even shows like Cops where like the cameras were on the, you know, the front of the police cars and that, that seemed like really, it really threw you a bit as a viewer because you just hadn't seen that good TV shows up until that. Were like really well lit. It was a requirement. And, you know, the cameras on tripods and, and then, then for some reason, like the most commercial, like networks and commercial shows took the genre of like documentary, which up until then was considered really like, like pretentious and arty and highbrow or whatever. And then, but then they suddenly took all those techniques and suddenly like, so Keeping Up with the Kardashians and all that and the Osbournes or whatever and all these like really they could not be more mainstream shows, were like, you know, taking all the techniques of, you know, uh, you know, documentary filmmaking where like you don't have to put things on tripods and you can swing the camera and it goes out of focus for a couple of seconds. And yeah, it doesn't matter if it kind of— it's in bad lighting or whatever. So yeah, thanks a lot, Kim Kardashian. What do you think? Stealing, you know, the, you know, the things that I helped set up.

Josh: What do you think of mainstream? Mainstream as a concept. I feel like you're quite the fringe.

John: Oh no, that's only if I'm like countercultural. That's just because I'm unsuccessful at being more popular. I got to— whenever I start a new project, I am like, for instance, I'm working on a new book for Penguin. It's my third book. And when I am, I'm having meetings with Penguin. It's not like, oh, how do we make this really like arthouse and inaccessible? We all like are thinking like, we're like, oh my God, like, how are you going to make this one the one that breaks out a bit Big W and everything. And yeah, you love Big W. Yeah, I love— I literally have conversations with Penguin where I say, how can we frame this so this book would be one of those ones that gets, you know, put up at Big W?

Josh: You want to be like Barefoot Investor?

John: Oh, literally, yes. But, but, but, you know, I'm just not that— I'd do that. I'd sell out if I thought I'd be any good at it. But what the problem with selling out is it doesn't work and then you're not happy with the work you've done. Whilst if you do, if I do something like where I'm kind of following my instinct a bit more and I'm, then it can work and it's great. If it doesn't work, you still kind of got this thing you like. So what would you never—

Tommy: what would selling out look like for you? And have you had a moment where you've had the opportunity to sell out?

John: No, I have. I can't tell you how people just— there's something about my shtick that like viewers just don't buy me being disingenuous, like, like to my, to myself, if you know what I mean.

Tommy: Yeah.

John: So like I've even done like subtle things, for instance, where it's like, okay, I'm going to do a storey where it's about, you know, Star Trek and science fiction fans or whatever. And just the audience can even pick up that I'm not really like, that's not really my scene or whatever. And they're not, it's not like they throw bricks at me or whatever, but like it just sort of doesn't work. Like I always have to be following these things that I'm obsessed with or else, yeah, readers just, or listeners or viewers just kind of don't buy it.

Tommy: Well, I think it works.

John: Oh no, thank you.

Tommy: You've done a lot of television. 3 books is— Yes, it's pretty good. We've been talking about authenticity and you could say that if you feel cringe about something and you listen to that feeling, that that's being authentic. Whereas I feel that sometimes you can feel not great about putting something out into the world because you just, uh, it's not the best, or I don't think— but then you do put it out and it works. How do you actually identify what's authentic for you?

John: Uh, well, I guess there's like a triangle. Hey, this is a bit like a TED Talk where if I'm about to do something, it has to be, uh, it's like a tension between what I reckon an audience wants and then what I want, and then also what the person who's greenlighting it wants. And you just have to negotiate around that, I guess. Did that answer your question?

Tommy: Can we get it animated?

John: That was amazing.

Josh: Ted Talks are 18 minutes.

John: Yeah, that was like the lamest Ted Talk.

Josh: Uh, TEDx.

John: I do— I'll tell you where, where I, I do like look for outside things and, and like try to study them. It's not so much topics or subject matters, it's structure. I'm really bad at structure. So when I'm like writing, I don't really know what I'm doing. So what's really cool, my first book was a true crime book. And what's really cool—

Tommy: Mississippi.

John: Yes. And what's really cool about writing about true crime is there's things to do where you like, you don't have to really think about structure because the structure works out itself because you're investigating a crime and then you go, okay, well, I go to the police station where they investigated the crime. Then I'll go to the street where the guy was killed and knock on doors. And you've got like this to-do list of things to do. And, but I find if I don't have that to-do list, I'm just really, um, confused.

Josh: Talking about crime podcasting, uh, within sort of the crime space, that seems to be the one that's, that's been popping. How does it feel to have something that you— back on the mainstream thing all of a sudden becomes cool.

John: Yeah, I think it's not fair that— I think I should be like, yeah, more mainstream considering. Yeah, I was like before Serial or whatever, I was, I was like, oh, doing that true crime thing before it kind of popped. And then somehow, yeah, why Serial? Why are they—

Tommy: is it the medium, right? Because I have like, I read Murder in Mississippi, and when I was training you, you were doing the book. So you were telling me stuff that was going on, and then I was connecting it with the book. So I have this like really vivid picture of what you— the journey you went on with that. And it's just as vivid as the serial one. So it's like, it's the medium at that point. It's a podcast.

John: Oh, versus a book.

Tommy: Yeah, versus the book.

John: Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, now, now audiobooks are becoming really bigger. They're really growing. So now they're releasing audiobooks on the same date as the paper book and there's like no distinction between them. So maybe my next book will be the—

Tommy: I mean, a contentious issue is when Josh says he's read a book and I say, did you listen or did you read?

Josh: Yeah, I listened. I've got 170 audiobooks. Weird flex again.

Tommy: Can you say you've read a book when you've listened to it, Jon?

John: Yeah, I reckon so.

Josh: Yeah. Okay.

John: All right. I'm wrong, but I'll listen.

Josh: I mean, this sellout just did his original with Audible.

John: Yeah, no, yeah, that is true. Yeah, my last project was with Audible, so there's a bit of a gun against my head to go along with that.

Josh: What's that like? What is it like, um, taking on a project? You were talking about the audience, I guess what the publisher wants. What is Audible like as a stakeholder?

John: Oh no, it's really good, and they're part of making sure books don't die, and they're part of you know, getting good content out there and they're trying to have an angle. So they, they, they sort of put a lot of thought into things like they're not just throwing out endless content. They're trying to have a point of distinction between the endless content. So yeah, they really put a lot of thought into my project.

Josh: What does it mean if you are someone that doesn't like structure or do well with structure? How does that work when a company gives you a bunch of cash and says, go on, make this thing? I often—

John: so it's a combo of things. Sometimes I will, like when I'm writing, I'll read a lot of other books in the genre I'm writing and try to figure out the blueprint. And so I did that with like true crime where before I went off, I was just freaking out because I'd never written a book before and I'd never really written a lengthy piece before. And I kind of didn't really hand in all my university essays either. And then suddenly I'd signed this thing where I have to like deliver a book. You know, books are quite thick.

Josh: Yeah.

John: Like once they're on your, your phone, you can forget how thick they are.

Josh: Yeah.

John: And so I was freaking out and I just read true crime book after true crime book and was trying to like analyse the blueprint. And then when I went over to Mississippi, I sort of was going, okay, that's happened in that book. So how do I do this? But with my thing, you're a quick reader. No, I mean, I can be, I can be, but not generally.

Josh: I mean, because I always find when I'm reading, if I try and get too fast, I realise I'm actually not reading. Like, there's actually no— like, I'm not retaining any information. Do you have any tips when it comes to researching if you've got to consume a bunch of books?

John: Uh, yeah, I, I always read— I'm really driven by shame and guilt, so I find if I read two books at the same time when I'm reading that one, I'm feeling guilty about not reading the other one. So I go, okay, now go to the other one. And then, oh, okay, go there. And that kind of keeps it going. So yeah, just, yeah, people have like real weird relationships with books these days. Like, they're— it's like with shame, like, oh, if I listen to it, is it a book? And, and all that, that jazz. But I, I also think that if you don't like a book, like, to stop reading it, because it might be the author's fault. Yeah, there's a lot of things where it's meant to be like, people go, oh, I didn't finish reading that book and I feel so bad or whatever. And like, it says something bad about me as a person. But maybe like, that wasn't a good book. Maybe it was good that you stopped reading it.

Josh: I feel like you're very honest. Do you think it's a poser move? Sometimes I'll listen to an audiobook and I enjoy it. And then so I buy the physical copy of the book to put on my bookshelf. Am I a poser?

John: I don't know if you're a poser, but I've occasionally gone through stages with a Kindle where I'm reading a book and it makes— it has such an important effect on me. Like, I think I read like In Cold Blood on Kindle or whatever, and then yeah, I am feeling afterwards going, I wish I had the book. And I have occasionally. Yeah, I have bought—

Tommy: like, I think I bought In Cold Blood after the fact but didn't read the physical copy.

John: Oh no, I think I ended up reading it again or whatever. But I can relate to that. It is nice having the—

Josh: well, one thing that I've started to do because I feel I got self-conscious about people potentially saying, hey, It doesn't look like you've read the book, as in because physically the book isn't worn. But there's a website called World of Books that sells secondhand books.

John: Oh, yeah.

Josh: And so you can just go on there. And so I can get a book that's actually been read by heaps of people.

Tommy: That's the one you got a quirky note in it.

Josh: Oh, so yeah, there's— I found like notes from people, like birthday messages. I had one which was Judd Apatow's book. What's that called? I got a Judd Apatow's book. I can't remember the title, but, um, he— Sick in the Head is what it was called. Uh, I got like the publisher, like a pre-release copy, not for sale. Yeah, not for sale.

John: Oh yeah, uncorrected proof. Yeah, they're great. That's a real—

Josh: for a poser. Yeah, yeah.

John: When I was at Triple J, we got sent lots of books, and yes, I've got quite a few of these uncorrected proofs, and that's like, um, yeah, that, that's maximum posing. I can send some of them to you if you want to go out posing with like some uncorrected proof. How are poser? How am I?

Josh: What do you do?

John: I don't know. Am I accused of— it's hard to know because I guess you kind of do subconscious things or whatever.

Josh: Uh, I feel like you think enough. I think we're all posers.

John: Yes.

Josh: And so you just like— what is the on— what do you do purely to be on brand?

John: Uh, I don't know. Luckily my brand is just, uh, being—

Josh: not being a poser, which makes it hard to answer this question.

John: Being a bit of a, uh, un— hinged, unkilted, if that's a word. Unkilted? Is that even a word? Is that not just not wearing a kilt? So things fit into my personal— like, I play Scrabble a lot, but it's not— I'm not being a poser.

Tommy: You've been doing that for years.

John: Yeah, it's just I do it. So yeah, so I'd like to— I guess, I don't know. Well, I'm going whitewater rafting, which I haven't done, uh, though I've only done one day of it before, but I'm going on an 8-day whitewater rafting thing later this week in Tasmania. So that's a bit— that could be—

Josh: so why do you want— like, what's the bit in you that wants to do that?

John: I like boot camp because ever since he dumped me, like, my, uh, you know, my exercise has gone down. So I just thought going into 2020 it'd be cool. Like, the last— you have an 8-day boot camp basically. Like, it's like 6 hours a day, um, paddling.

Tommy: But I mean, there's a few things. You're doing that without mates, you're doing it with a group of people you don't know. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of— that's confronting for most people. To do something like that on your own. I mean, you know, you know, um, you've done, you've, you've done a lot of things where you've put yourself in, uh, uncomfortable situations. Do you think, do you think people think you fly under the radar? Or when you go and enter the alt-right, uh, protest, yeah, are you actually fitting in? Or are they going, ah, it's John again?

John: Oh yeah, usually someone squeals. But it's, it's kind of like the last thing I've done like that, which they're totally not like the alt-right at all, but like where I went into a world that, you know, I hadn't really gone into, it was just last week where I was in New Zealand for the Vape Expo. And so I was hanging out with the, the world vape scene.

Tommy: So vaping, um, is it illegal in Australia to buy the liquid, or only the—

John: it's illegal to buy from Australia nicotine liquid, but you can order nicotine liquid from overseas.

Tommy: And so you're sort of going— this is, can I say, one of the things that has grabbed your attention. You said you go after things that are just, you know, squeeze that attention inside you, all the interest. Um, where— how deep is the rabbit hole of vaping? Like the vape convention? What the f—

John: what's, what's that? Oh, the VapEx. Well, in this case it was mainly vape juice suppliers and vape stores and, and like Chinese companies that manufacture vapes all getting together and working out deals and stuff like that. But there was also— I was interested in it because I think compared to last year, it's only the second year and already like big cigarette companies, uh, siding into it. Ah, so if you went last year, it was, it was a lot more of a kind of a cowboy thing, for want of a better word, where it's like all these companies haven't heard of, and, um, you know, grassroots type things. And already in like one year, uh, the like big cigarette companies have realized, oh, this is— we've got to get involved in this scene.

Tommy: So there's money there. Yes.

Josh: Have you ever smoked a cigarette before?

John: Yeah, just not— I haven't— while training, when he was training, I, I, but never, never really, like, not for a sustained period, but like I guess like anyone who's past the age of 30 probably or whatever, let alone 40, is yeah, just like over the years you've whatever.

Josh: Why do people smoke? Is that the ultimate poser move? Smoking?

John: I don't know. Well, actually, one interesting thing about vaping is that because it's brand new, there hasn't been settled even on exactly what the stereotypes are of vapers. So when I like message people like friends, I go, I'm off in New Zealand doing a vaping thing. I'll get back to me and they're all like different stereotypes, like, oh, hanging out with those hipsters who are vaping or hanging out. And then someone else will be, oh, hang out with those bogans vaping. And then someone else, hang out with those neckbeards vaping.

Josh: So I feel like they all have in common crypto. I feel like that all has some form of currency, don't you think?

John: Yeah, well, I'll add that to my book of— I had this idea for my book of how, seeing there's no stereotype, there's no stereotypes, but it's multifaceted. Yeah, it hasn't quite settled and I don't quite know what the stereotype is like compared with things like we're talking about dope or something. You'd be going, oh, the, you know, Bob Marley fans and all that stuff.

Josh: But now, like, we were just in California and they're all pushing back on that sort of thing. Now they're trying to, you know, create the, the Apple Store for marijuana and things like that.

John: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what the at least one cigarette company is trying to do. With e-cigarettes is, you know, the way they package their e-cigarette is like the Apple iPhone. And their stores in America that they're starting to roll out, I think they've only got 2 at the moment, but they're both like— people, they look like the Apple iStores. And they're— I guess part of what they're trying to do is make you not think about the nicotine and tobacco element of it and just, I don't know, think you're putting an iPhone in your mouth, which you would like.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: If you could smoke that phone, Josh would be doing it.

Josh: And so when did you— when was the first time you ever smoked a cigarette?

John: Uh, I think— I— well, yeah, I think when I was in Cubs or something, we were out on a hike. And the reason I remember it was because, uh, we smoked it and I kind of got confused. I took incomplete information because I remember like from the films and whatever and comic books, it's like you got— you tap it like, you know, like you tap it on the table or whatever to get rid of the ash. But I sort of, I tapped it on my bare leg in my shorts because I just panicked. Yeah, panicked, or I was just, didn't want to, I just was trying to like look casual or whatever. There was like, and then I was like, oh, and then I like, I really held it in. So that's why I remember that as my first cigarette.

Josh: Were you good at Cubs?

John: At what?

Josh: At Cubs. You said you were doing Cubs.

John: Yeah, yeah. Oh well, yeah, the weird thing about— I have no idea why these are the headphones, they're running away from me, they're so bored by my anecdotes. Trying to escape. Um, yeah, so I went to Cubs, Scouts, and Venturers, but— and I turned up, I had nothing against it, but, but I don't kind of remember it. It wasn't really my scene, even like my parents sent me there, and, and you're so young you don't even know what your scene is. Uh, but I was like caving and hiking and doing all this stuff and smoking cigarettes. But then, but the thing I mainly remember which had the biggest impact. There were these two older kids and they had memorized— they're obsessive Monty Python fans. And so we'd go on these hikes. I didn't know who Monty Python was. We'd go on these hikes and they'd be doing all the songs from Monty Python but kind of speeding it up a bit and then doing excerpts from all the skits or whatever. And I remember like just walking behind them and almost like, like using them as my Walkman. And, and then later on when I was bit older, yeah, I bought the tapes myself and I listened, and I preferred their cover versions because they, yeah, they had really sped up things and kind of cut to the chase in a lot of things. And but yeah, but so the fact that that is what I mainly remember about my many years Cub Scouting and Venturing when I was sailing and caving and abseiling, but somehow that didn't make an impact on me. But yeah, the two older guys doing the Monty Python songs That's what I remember. Probably that showed how— yeah, my scene was more there.

Tommy: What is your scene? What did it change to younger days before you got into telly?

John: Well, uh, I think from about grade 3, I just had some vibe that I wanted to do something creative. So I'd do like write parody songs and things and try to write comic strips. I'm really bad at drawing, so I just tried out a lot of things and like, like in primary school I'd write skits for shows and everything. So yeah, they're a bit of a mogul even back then.

Tommy: I mean, if you look at now, people sort of in the industry that you're in, especially telly or creating visual content, they usually enter via being a filmmaker. So they're on the tools trying to film, whether it's themselves or things. Do you classify yourself as a filmmaker? Was that something early days you, you thought that you were, or—

John: Nah, I, I don't even know quite what I was wanting to do, but so I was just trying out these different things and I, I don't— and like, I tried being in bands and stuff. It's like really awkward. It's embarrassing to say like I sincerely was there, um, rapping in a band. Like, I'm pretty awkward.

Tommy: Well, uh, Music Jamboree, you were—

John: Yes.

Tommy: I mean, you've brought those elements into a lot of the stuff that you've done.

John: Yeah, but I— yes, so, so I just fell into the documentary thing through Race Around the World because there was an ad on the ABC saying, oh, have you never been on TV and want to be a filmmaker or something like that? And so I just responded to that, to the opportunity. But I'd never before that thought, oh, I want to be in documentary. Like, I'm sure I'd seen some documentaries, but I hadn't really thought that hard about it.

Tommy: Did you think you were a good storyteller? Ah, he's singing now.

John: I thought I was a good singer, I guess. I, I don't know. I knew I wanted to, but I didn't think I was there like resting on my laurels or being vain about it. I think I was more hungry. I was hungry to be a storyteller rather than I thought I was a good storyteller.

Tommy: I think there's an intuitive nature to stories. Everyone, we, we learn them as kids. We grow up sharing information through story.

John: Yeah.

Tommy: And so, yeah, I mean, maybe you weren't thinking you were great, but there is a level of intuitiveness to storytelling that I think you can't— how do you teach that?

John: I, I, I sort of knew. I, I picked up by instinct what things I thought people would think was interesting and also things that other people couldn't tell them. So straight away I realized, even though when I went to— I went to this Hasidic Jewish school with sidelocks and everything. And straight away when I started having to produce work for Race Around the World, I realized, ah, like I had access to this like little secret world that most people don't know about. And they— it's— everyone's kind of interested in peeking behind the curtains of things that are secret, whether it's like, uh, the Freemasons or Hasidic school or a cigarette company or nightclub or something. Everyone's like fascinated by getting to peek behind the curtain of something that they usually can't see. So yeah, I guess I picked up that I had a bit of instinct of like, I, of what I thought people found interesting about my experiences, and then left alone all the things that I didn't think they would find interesting.

Josh: Do you think you were, you were a weird kid?

John: No, I had it too easy as a kid. I wasn't beaten up enough. So when I went to this primary school, to this state primary school, and I was pretty true to myself. I don't— and I didn't think about it that hard, and I never felt like anyone bullying me or saying, 'You can't be like that.' And yeah, so probably I'd have different storeys if I was picked on more as a kid. Yeah, and maybe I needed to be picked on more as a kid in retrospect. But now at the moment, I'm— I'm— and in the last couple of years, I've ended up in writers' rooms like writing, helping people with their shows that are like, uh, like thrillers and things like that. And I, I wrote, uh, our episode of this Australian, uh, thriller, I guess. That was it. It didn't end up being produced or whatever, but anyway, through— I always find that like really fun. And so I can absolutely imagine a parallel universe where instead of getting into documentary, I just ended up being like a scriptwriter, and I'd be pretty happy. I'm not sure how much I'm motivated. I know it sounds like I'm denying it or trying to have it both ways, but I'm not sure how much, like, I'm really that in love with, like, oh, I have to be the face of things, or I have to be— I think it's sort of like ended up that way. And then was it easier to put yourself sort of behind the camera to tell the storey Yeah, well, even what, like, these days it's also that people who are likely to greenlight my work are not that interested, not in not me being in it. So if I was to say to Penguin, I want to write a book, but it's a fiction, and all this stuff like that, and it's not going to have my voice or something like that, like, I just don't think they want it.

Josh: When you're in a writer's room, yes. Can you, uh, distinguish between your voice and the voice that they need?

John: Uh, well, the cool thing about writers' room is often there's several people there and you get to pick up on everyone's little obsessions and how that kind of contributes to the, the main project. I, I just give my contribution and then they can— they don't have to take it. They can, you know, it's not my project, it's theirs. So, but Yeah, generally the thing I can bring to the table is conflict. Not, not a fight in the room, but where, uh, I'm just basing this on all the TV. Like, before I did my first writer's room, because the show was kind of sort of in the ballpark of kind of, of things like Breaking Bad, I guess. I mean, not really, but whatever. I just like binge-watched all these shows and tried to pick up the patterns, and I got to go, oh my God, it's all about everything just has to be a fight all the time. And so yeah, generally I'm in writers' rooms, I just make all the characters fight all the time.

Tommy: So coming from like writing, you know, John Safran's Race Relations, where it's your baby, yeah, and you've sort of led the direction of it from start to finish, to doing something where you're collaborating with others, what have you learned there about collaboration and how the hierarchy works or who's leading or that kind of—

John: No, generally with collaborations I found that, that I, maybe I've just been fortunate, but it's, it's not been like, oh, oh well, I want the other person destroyed, or like you're kind of pushing in the same direction. And, and so if you trust the other people when they say, oh, like, that's a lame idea, you kind of go, okay, well I guess I can trust them. They're not like out to get me. It probably is a lame idea. So yeah, so it's usually not that melodramatic. I do have— and sometimes you do have fights where you— not fights, but disagreements where you cave, and then afterwards you realise they were right. And so that makes it confusing. On my occult podcast I just did with Audible, yeah, there were a couple things where Uh, you know, I was pushing back and forth about whether this should be in or that this should not be in, and eventually I was just like, okay, fine, put it in. And then, you know, I've got good feedback about it. So yeah, so it's really difficult to know.

Tommy: Well, I mean, what makes up a good idea? How do you know if something's going to be a good idea?

John: Uh, I guess just, yeah, like instinct, and also like if things are making me laugh, or, or if, if things are just— if I'm just curious about something, uh, generally that's a really good starting point.

Josh: What have you been curious about today specifically?

John: Uh, today? No, no, so because I'm in the, the, the, uh, I'm in the world of smoking at the moment.

Tommy: But not smoking.

John: But not smoking. Yeah, so that, that was a bit unfortunate because The book would have a far more obvious drive if it was like, I'm addicted to cigarettes, and, and so that's why I'm looking into this topic. But it's, it's amazing that once you start, uh, looking into a topic, just every, every, all the storeys come out, all your friends come out, and, and yeah.

Tommy: Is it, do you start obsessing, or is it just focused thought?

John: No, no, it's obsessive.

Josh: Have you thought about taking up smoking for the book?

John: I did. I absolutely would if I thought it would ring true. So a lot of, a lot of times when I'm like throwing myself into books because that's what the audience wants and also the publisher, they want me to be like part of the story. And then I have to really think about whether an audience is going to take it as sincere or not. So that's, that's the problem with me trying to get addicted to cigarettes whilst I did get briefly addicted to nicotine toothpicks. At the Vape Expo in New Zealand. It's this new thing where, yeah, it's just, they're, uh, toothpicks doused in nicotine. And so you go like that, and then you can start chewing on them a bit. And then I like chewed 10 in a row, and then I was like all jittery. And like, um, yeah, I was kind of like bumbling about, buzzing about the expo, and it was good. And I was madly like recording all of it.

Tommy: Well, it gives you like a— it's like a caffeine hit kind of.

John: Yeah, I remember what I was babbling. I was talking about, because on a previous TV show I'd done, I'd taken peyote, that— oh yeah, that, uh, hallucinogenic that, uh, some Native American take, and you have these hallucinant dreams. And I was— anyway, so I was walking around the Vape Expo last week after jittery on these nicotine toothpicks, just going, oh my God, this is such a crap sequel. What a sort of like, what a disappointing sequel. Like, you know, I took peyote in Arizona and but now I'm just jittering around on nicotine toothpicks at a vape expo. And yeah, so hopefully they'll probably make it to the book, I guess.

Tommy: Is nicotine actually bad for you? So you go smoking, yeah, the smoke on your lungs, the added shit, but then the nicotine itself. What do you know about that?

John: So I think the simple answer, like the unnuanced answer is the thing with nicotine is that it's addictive, but it's not actually— it's not what is dangerous. What's dangerous is inhaling like carcinogens in different forms. Having said that, one asterisk, and keep in mind I'm a humanities student who wasn't paying attention in science, so definitely do due diligence on anything I say. I think there are now some scientists who are saying no, there is a harm to nicotine beyond it just being addictive.

Josh: So, but what is nicotine?

John: It's an— oh my God, I can't believe I know the answer to this. It's an extract from tobacco leaf, but it's not really— when you— yeah, it's an extract from tobacco. Yes, but it's not— it's not— this is where it gets confusing because the thing that gives you cancer in cigarettes isn't the nicotine that's an extract from tobacco, it's the tobacco leaf in it that when it's, uh, when you inhale the carcinogens of the smoke. And this is where it gets really, uh, like you can tell I'm really hemming and hawing and trying to think because if you had nicotine you'd be up because the whole thing with vaping, like the controversy is about whether inhaling things in a vaping form is as dangerous as inhaling smoke. And then when it comes to vapes, there's not even— there's like different forms of vapes. There's this thing called vape. There's just vapes as we understand it. Then there's these new things called heat-not-burn tobacco where you're inhaling a vapour of tobacco. And then the people who produce that argue that that's safer. But bizarre.

Josh: And so what do you want to get out of like on a a book project like this, what, what's success look like? What do you actually want to end up with?

John: I have to go on a mad rollicking adventure and I don't know, I'm a bit, I'm a bit, I'm a bit thingy about like showing my hand with this, with this book yet because I'm still sort of trying to get into places. But, but generally it's, it's about big companies leaning into the vape scene, this scene that sort of grew up a bit organically, and sort of what the consequences of that are going to be. But I promise you, it's going to be like funny.

Josh: And so is that point of view— do you go in with, hey, I've got a point of view? You know, like you watch a Michael Moore— yeah, doco— and you know that it's sort of like edited and it's sort of building a case. Are you going to set that up as like, hey, this is my case, and then I go explore it?

John: I think— yeah, I think so. People don't People really don't put up with me being moralising a lot, which is kind of annoying.

Josh: What does that mean?

John: It's more like, like, like if I did a— like, goddammit, people don't like Nazis. But I promise you, if I put out a book where I'm like, you know what, screw Nazis, everyone's like, oh, Saffron's whining again. So people just don't put up with me moralising a lot. So, so I always— I guess I try to just get obsessed with something. And then, yeah, like, yeah, I like, I like exploring all the contradictions and all the ambiguities and all the reasons why things don't fit together neatly. So like in my last book about extremism, like, I, I kept on doing things where I'd find these right-wing extremists who weren't white. And so then it was like just like awkward to read because it's like, you know, if you're reading about extremists, it's like, oh, it's, it's a real— it's really easy and comfortable to read if you're talking about like the classic neo-Nazis versus a minority. But then it's like, oh, just say there's like evangelical Christians in Australia from a minority group, you know, like Sri Lankan group, and they don't like Muslims and they're out protesting Muslims. It's like suddenly it's, it's all a bit awkward. And yes, I like, um, poking into that. And I don't know if audiences like that as much anymore. When I was young, everyone— like, people on the left, they loved all that stuff where you like bring up all the contradictions and about how things don't rest easily. I remember when I was on Triple J, we'd have this informal irregular segment which was called Clash of Political Correctness, where there's like an issue and it's just awkward because— like, the one I think about is in, in America that, that, you know, the Cherokee tribe, uh, Native Americans, they decided that within their tribe there were, uh, Black Americans who were the descendants of slaves that had been owned by the Cherokee Indians. So, which already sounds weird that the Cherokee Indians had Black slaves, but they did. Anyway, and anyway, that they, they decided that they were going to kick the, uh, these Black Americans out of their tribe because of all these benefits you get if you're a Cherokee, like, uh, you know. Um, and so then it became like this weird awkward thing of, hang on, do you believe in Indigenous self-determination, in which case you're a racist against Black people because they're kicking them out of the tribe, or do you believe that Black people should remain in tribe, in which case you don't believe in self-determination because you're telling the Cherokee Indians what they can and can't do.

Josh: Isn't this just all media now? Isn't this what every story—

John: Oh yeah, maybe it is, maybe, maybe it is. But yet, like, but I think, I think amongst sort of my little, in a very broad sense, the kind of people would be interested in my perspective. Like, people like things to be clear-cut and neat now and explainable in a tweet. And then if you're a bit of— I guess, I guess I'm a bit of a troll. Like, why— like that, that thing where I was talking about, uh, the Cherokee Indians kicking the Black Americans out of their tribe, like, I'm, you know, it's, it's really interesting and worth talking about. But yeah, there is an element where it's like I'm saying it because, you know, yeah, it kind of has to open your brain up and you're being stimulated a bit or something. But yeah, I'm not sure people like that anymore.

Josh: What do you think of veganism? Veganism seems like the shit-hot thing. Everyone's talking about it. It's either, uh, you're pro-veganism or eat lots of meat. And there's the documentary Game Changers on Netflix, which—

Tommy: or it's the connection to climate change. So yeah, definitely.

John: Yeah. Uh, I reckon there's some issues where I, I think about if I had a girlfriend or a wife who was this could I go along with it? And I reckon, I reckon I could go along with a wife if she was a vegetarian or vegan. I, I could easily adjust to that. But I also, if she was—

Josh: I bet she smoked.

John: If she hunted her own meat and then brought it home, and I, I could also live with that. So I'm clearly not a fundamentalist enough about veganism either way.

Tommy: We talk about, um, a concept, all for content. So creators these days living a life where everything is geared towards capturing a moment. I mean, you've been capturing moments along your journey for, you know, for 15, 20 years. Is there a sense when you're— because I think there's a, there's a disconnection when you have an all-for-content approach, when you're in a rally and there's alt-right guys with Nazi tattoos on your neck where you're like, it's almost like behind your behind your face looking out like it's the TV. Is there a sense that you are disconnected when you're in these moments, when you're getting crucified in the Philippines? Like, are you legitimately experiencing it, or are you going— are you thinking telly, telly, telly, telly, camera angles, camera angles?

John: Oh, and this is great. Oh yes, sort of both. So it's not insincere because I'm interested in these things because I'm interested in them. So I'd I'd be reading about the alt-right or about religion or whatever, you know, if I worked at an accounting firm. So it's not like this is here, but yeah, once the rubber hits the road and you're out there, like, like, it is clicking away in your head.

Tommy: Well, I guess the, the other side of that is, are you reducing the actual perception of danger in these situations based on the awful content?

John: Uh, oh, so am I not aware of what danger I'm in? Yes, I think that's true. Where it's usually I'm back home a couple of days later and I'm thinking, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't have kind of poked at that.

Josh: Well, it's like the guy in Vanuatu. Yeah, that you were sort of pushing and prodding.

John: Yeah.

Josh: And you specifically talk about that in the podcast. Is, is that a, uh, the stuff around the release forms? I find that interesting. There was a couple of times in the podcast where you say they didn't sign a release form.

John: Yeah.

Josh: Is this a new thing where companies are sort of more, uh, aware and cautious, or is this something that you've had to deal with your whole life?

John: Uh, I think, uh, it's just different for different projects. So yeah, yes, I definitely, uh, yeah, we had— I had to get release forms to— for the Audible project, and then when I couldn't get them, we had to work out creative ways around around how to kind of express what the person had expressed without broadcasting their voice. But often that stuff is kind of fun.

Josh: What about the interaction trying to get someone who doesn't want to sign a release form? Do you do any really good convincing where you got it across the line?

John: Uh, no, I'm not— I'm really not that good at that. So I'm pretty, I'm pretty awkward even going up to people, you know, even in a non-confrontating way. So yeah, the whole thing of trying to upsell someone to sign a release form is very difficult.

Tommy: I mean, there's not really even a sell because there's— what's in it for them? When you're walking up to a door in Mississippi, some little town, and you're about to knock on it, yeah, like, what's going through your head in these situations where you're totally out of what you know is normal?

John: Uh, a lot of it, I'm driven a lot by shame, and, and so A lot of it, if I hadn't, if I hadn't like signed the book contract, I am, I'm thinking like, I just have to do this. It's like, it's uncomfortable. Like once, once you've crossed the threshold and I'm talking to the person behind the doors, because like most people aren't, not like it's rude or anything, that they're kind of curious about why someone's asking or whatever. So once I'm finally talking to them, it's all fine. But yeah, it is freaking uncomfortable, like to knock on the door. And but that's why I always have like business cards printed out because it just makes it look like what you're doing is sort of—

Tommy: this is normal, a bit more legit.

John: Yeah, a bit more legit.

Tommy: I feel like, uh, my character, if you will, I couldn't get away with putting myself in these situations. I'd be— I'd stand out like a fucking sore thumb and they'd just be like, who's this wanker?

Josh: Do you feel like—

Tommy: how do you go into these? Maybe you're just being you, but How do you enter scenarios where, you know, you're overseas and you've got to sort of go undercover? Like, how do you not stand out? Is there anything—

John: I prefer overseas where people don't know me. Whilst even like in New Zealand, when I was there last week, like, it was pretty normal. And also people just Google you as well, so even if they don't know you, they can know you pretty soon. And Yeah, I'd prefer not to be known, but, you know, just for the sake of getting the work. And then, but then I kind of, I put that into the books because that kind of can become like good content for the books, that the other person's like really suspicious of me because they know who I am. And yeah, so everything just suddenly becomes like shtick, you know.

Tommy: So I feel like your content's been on the border of, um, not getting cancelled, but on the, on the line of just really sort of, uh, not distasteful, but just in people's eyes, like, really sort of shocking, right? Like when you got crucified, I remember it was a— what year was that that you did that?

John: Uh, maybe 2000— it was either 2008 or 2009.

Tommy: And, um, his, his rig was looking great because he trained very hard for it. But I remember the time of, like, you know, coming through the news, but it wasn't like now where there's it's— stuff gets plastered everywhere, and you see people like Chris Lilley who have sort of pushed it a little bit too far. Is there a consideration of where the line is and how far you're pushing up to it?

John: Uh, for me it's more what people will accept from their— the character of me. So, so, uh, so there was an element, not so much with taste or whatever, where I stopped doing pranky stuff just because times had moved on. So when I started doing that, that genre, I was a bit ahead of the curve, and so it was like interesting. And then it just became the, the culture, like everyone was doing it, like everyone was just doing sort of pranking stuff. So then I just stopped doing it because I just thought, oh, it just kind of doesn't work anymore for me, not for other people, but for me. And it doesn't work because I started doing that, I was like in my early 20s, so people's audiences are kind of like, oh, someone in their early 20s is kind of a teenager, so he's kind of a teenager doing these wacky things. And yeah, but then you hit your whatever, you're past 35, and do they really want to see some middle-aged man? Yeah, you know, dressed up as an elf skipping around Parliament House trying to zing Julia Gillard or whatever. Yeah, so Most of my decisions are more come from that perspective of more like a creative perspective of like, is an audience going to like this or not?

Tommy: I mean, we were into prank stuff years and years ago, and then it's like, I think we've, as, as an audience not creating that stuff, are like, we're kind of, you've, you know, I've talked about that. Yeah, YouTubers, 10 million subscribers built off the back of a prank channel, and now they're, they're vloggers with a hot girlfriend. Yeah, it's just travel.

Josh: The, um, the thing on shame, the difference— can you, can you basically have shame and also be happy at the same time?

John: Uh, yeah, that's a good question. I think, I think if there was balance, you can. If, uh, but yeah, if you're totally overwrought by shame the whole time, then no, you're not happy.

Josh: How do you control your shame?

John: I don't know, I pull down the curtains in my flat, make sure no one can see me. Hide away. It gets sort of like harder to hide away the more, uh, like especially now because the internet's everywhere or whatever. You can't even think about— although I never really could. Like, I remember after that show where I got crucified, I was just feeling a bit like under the microscope. I was like, oh yeah, I'll just take a holiday. I'll go to New Zealand. And I went to New Zealand and I wanted to just like escape and hide. And then like whatever, within like 45 minutes someone said, hey, you're John Safran. And so, so yeah, you can't hide anymore.

Josh: Is the shtick a coping mechanism? Like, do you feel that the shtick makes you a character and so then you can separate between the actions of that character?

John: Well, yeah, I definitely have to. There's no way I'd be doing like awkward prank-like thing if it wasn't for material or whatever. But I don't know, there's another side to it. Like, like you get to like research this stuff and you have an excuse to do it. So I get like, I bet a lot of people would be kind of really curious about this murder or about cigarette companies or about whatever, and then you're not allowed to just knock on people's doors if you're not writing a book. So it's kind of cool that way.

Josh: Is there a difference, like what's the main difference between everyday John behind the curtains and the John that's out and about doing interviews and speaking and writing books?

John: Uh, I don't know, like, like when I write books and I guess also for my docos, it's like an edited heightened version of you. So, and I used to like that a lot, but as I said, like, life's moved on. People don't like ambiguity as much anymore. I still love that my persona on TV, it was hard to figure out what was real and what wasn't. And I was just like, yeah, that's cool, like, because that's what entertainment That's what art is. And but now, like, people really want— people get really annoyed and agitated when there's, when there's sort of like not clarity. So even my, my last book about extremists, there were things where I was like trying to create this, this disorienting effect, which I think I did. But, but like, I didn't really like underline and highlight things and what you're meant to be thinking as the reader. And, and I got a bit of blowback for that because you leave yourself open because then you haven't said it, so therefore other people can, uh, kind of spin what you've said. So yeah, so I, I think my next book, uh, I probably will be talking about, about a bit of this stuff we've talked about where it's about how, okay, fine, you want to know my freaking opinion, here it is. And I do a boring paragraph with the most boring conclusion that, you know, getting lung cancer is bad.

Josh: Do you think that's safer? Like, do you think, like, I guess thinking about if you were to take on anyone.

John: Yeah.

Josh: It feels like the tobacco industry, it's a, it's a fairly safe thing versus maybe the nuance of dealing with things like racism and those types of—

John: well, I guess I guess I'll see. But, uh, yeah, like, all, all worlds are really interesting, and once you kind of start diving into it, there's all these little internal battles between different subcultures and different worlds within worlds. And yes, basically, I'm sure I'll get in trouble anyway.

Tommy: Is there a commonality between the people who are in these subcultures, deep in them? Is there a commonality in their personalities, or who gravitates towards it?

John: Yeah, definitely. There's like the search for meaning. So I don't know if everyone has this yearning to have like meaning in their lives. But, uh, yeah, that's definitely like an element of like people on the far right and who get involved in the far right. And in a totally different way, totally different way, if anyone's like, like people who are the grassroots people who've got involved in vaping or whatever, is, uh, it's like you search for meaning. Like everyone, everyone wants, uh, like to feel like they're doing something that has purpose and, you know, they feel like a hole in their, in their world or whatever. And then that's what's really cool if you grew up like in a religion or in like an ethnic group, because a lot of that's put in place when you're young, so you don't have to yearn for it or go out into strange places to find it. But then, uh, yeah, so lots of the people— I don't know, lots— but like people on the, the far right that I met when I was researching my last book. Like, there was an element of, yeah, people were just like yearning for meaning in their life.

Tommy: I think that like, uh, document— like Netflix and all the documentaries, you find the ones that are really popular. So, uh, Game Changers, uh, veganism, vegetarianism, um, is heightened. Where does Scientology sit at the moment in terms of its, uh, uh, its, I guess, relevance to criticism in the mainstream?

John: Uh, I think, uh, it was really banking on being secretive, and with the internet it's really hard to be secretive anymore. So it, yeah, it lost a bit of its kind of psychic energy and kind of, I don't know, zeitgeist power when suddenly, like, you can just read all their secret documents because they're just uploaded a million times in a different me and sites or whatever. So it was the same with the Freemasons, where as soon as they were like, hey man, we're not going to be secretive anymore, so like, come to our open day, it's like, well yeah, what's the point? Like, that was the point of you being Freemasons, it was that it was secretive. Like, that was what made it awesome. Yeah. And now you've sort of handed over the most awesome— you know, you've traded the most awesome thing, which is the secrets. Yeah.

Tommy: What else is out there that— I mean, is there any new ones that have come up? It's a weird time for new religions like Scientology to start out, I guess. But if anyone wants to know, it's you, John.

John: Uh, no, I haven't really, uh, I haven't really fallen into any new cults.

Tommy: It's just clouded out from the vape smoke. The vape.

Josh: Are you an introvert?

John: Yeah, I guess so, in, in some ways, yes. Some ways, yes.

Tommy: Yes, you say it with a bit of, uh, I don't know.

John: I, I do— what do you think? I'm an introvert.

Tommy: I think you're an introvert.

John: Okay, cool.

Tommy: But I, I, I, some people probably have apprehension based on seeing— some people might think it's negative. I don't think it is, but I think there's negative connotations attached to someone who's an introvert in an extrovert world. Um, I think there's actually a great book on that. Josh, you've— was it you?

Josh: I own it, but I haven't read it. This is a classic move by me.

Tommy: Are you an introvert, Josh, do you think?

Josh: Yeah, I think I think so.

Tommy: But I think, look what you're both doing. I mean, you've forged a career out of a thing that comes across as only extroverts, or it's an extroverted action.

John: Yeah.

Josh: Do you find it different, like, on a Saturday night? What's the ultimate, uh, John Saturday night? What does that look like?

John: Uh, I don't know, wandering around my house drunk with my illegal firearm. You know, thinking about all my enemies, pretty much that. I don't know, I've, uh, I don't know, sometimes I hang out with friends, so it's not, you know.

Josh: No, but I'm not like positioning as I want you to give the introverted answer. Yeah, but what, seriously, what is it?

John: Ah, I'm— well, what did I do?

Josh: What's a perfect— we talk about the perfect day. If you were to describe—

John: okay, so definitely, so probably like what I I'd want to do is I just want to, uh, spend time in as opposed to out, but have a friend or some friends over also.

Josh: And then maybe like a small group, like, yes, because I like, I like people. Yeah, but I don't like too many people.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: So having one or two people over is good.

John: Yeah.

Josh: And then you're big into Uber Eats.

John: Uh, what exactly are you accusing me of? That is connected with why I'm going on an 8-day kind of boot camp.

Josh: No, I love it. I'm— I use it all the— the delivery thing I use all the time.

John: Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's, it's, it's definitely tempting. Yeah, definitely. But that, that is part of, um, yeah, that— but you probably have hit upon something about how that's making— that's feeding into people's introvert.

Josh: Do you hate the idea of ordering a coffee? I hate going up and being like, like, uh, Mr. 97 and I were on a shoot earlier today and I went to, um, Macca's because I could just do the— I didn't have to— oh yeah, I can do the whole—

John: I think it's, it's whether it's like shame eating or not. So I wouldn't consider a coffee shameful, so I'd be happy to go and order it from the barista or whatever.

Josh: But you're right, coffee order, uh, I have long blacks and—

John: but I also have flat whites. I'm not a— I'm not like really very fundamentalist. I jump around.

Josh: Okay, sure. And so you, uh, so you're fine with that sort of, that sort of interaction?

John: Oh yeah, for sure. But I, I think, I think one of the— yeah, yeah. So I live, I live on a street where there's like lots of cafes or whatever. I'm happy to kind of go down there and kind of soak up a bit of, uh, humanity.

Josh: What's December like as a month for you, man?

John: You really are like, are you lonely?

Josh: Maybe I'm projecting.

John: Look at that ledge over there.

Josh: My December, well, this is You could have a fucking great December.

John: I'm going— it sounds like— I'm going to— well, last— no, I've had a good December, I guess, because I went— I spent a week in New Zealand, 2 days of that at the Vape Expo, and then a few more days with the Vape Emperor of New Zealand. He's like— he runs like the big company.

Josh: Yeah.

John: And so I went on a bit of a you know, a tour with him and we went to Hobbiton. Not just me and him, but me and him and some American vape suppliers or whatever.

Tommy: And are they vaping as they're going?

John: Like, oh yeah, there's a lot of foam. Yeah. So that is— I kind of wish I was filming this in some ways because I don't know how I'm going to describe it. Because often when you describe things, it sounds like you're making some judgment. And so yeah, it is going to be hard. Like, it is like we will whitewater rafting for 6 hours and all the vapers on there, like the vaping industry, like they had their like vapes tucked into their— and they're vaping all the time and they vape around the workplace and everything. Yeah. So it's definitely a thing.

Tommy: We went into a friend's office.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: He's built quite a big business, got, you know, 15 employees and his general manager comes out of his office, just this big plume of vape. I just thought there was something so comical about it. Like he had a tight shirt on indoors. This huge cloud coming out, this—

Josh: some sort of like Mad Men, Mad Men, modern-day Mad Men.

Tommy: Like, I just couldn't help but laugh at him.

Josh: Um, what's with the whitewater rafting?

John: Okay, so anyway, so I'm saying my December was good despite you trying to paint me as some lunatic loner where I spent a week in New Zealand. Like, that was last week, and there was whitewater rafting. That— it's just because it was organized. I didn't— I'd never whitewater rafted before. But then, so I've come back and then there's this stretch of, uh, late December where you can't really work because everyone is out of the office and all that stuff like that. So I thought I'd go, I'd do a health kick because you've been around where I've done health kicks. Yeah, yeah, I'm quite good at like—

Josh: where does the health kick come from?

John: It's usually because I have to appear, I have to appear on, uh, TV or something like that. So I've—

Tommy: did you lost 12 or 14 kilos or something? Like, and it wasn't that you were holding a heap, but you got— he got super late. You were doing the chicken and broccoli. You got to a point you were cooking chicken in the microwave. Yeah, that's fucking dedication.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

John: So I've done that probably half a dozen or more times where, like, I'm not— I'm not really—

Josh: shame thing.

John: Yeah, I'm not really that into exercise, but I am. I'm— I can kind of get obsessive about something. So, but then it kind of like becomes your life. Like, well, like when I was like losing weight for the TV show, it's sort of like you plan your day around it. So I find it really hard to multitask, like, uh, exercise to lose weight and also not be a lunatic.

Josh: So what do you think about— because I used to be 120 kilos. Oh yeah, uh, what's your—

Tommy: and he used to stay indoors, windows down, blinds down.

Josh: What, uh, what, what is your relationship with food?

John: Yeah, I've got a bad relationship with food. So yeah, yeah, so part of going on the 8-day whitewater rafting is I'm just thinking, because I guess for a lot of people it'd be like, it's like, oh, I want to see the beautiful whatever it is. I don't even know what it is.

Josh: Scenery. Yeah, yeah, scenery.

Tommy: Yeah.

John: But yeah, for me, I'm thinking, oh, a bit like when I was training with you, I'm going, oh, this is really cool. It'll be like this 8-day boot camp where I'm like, for 6 hours a day I'm paddling and stuff.

Tommy: I think it is a good idea.

Josh: You can't really eat while you're Yeah, but I guess from the shame, what people have been opening my eyes to is it's like, if that comes from that place of shame, is it actually— so if you're like smashing yourself, yeah, is that positive long term?

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: Yeah, you think so?

John: Yeah, because I've got healthy enough, like quite healthy enough times to know you feel better. And so it's not like, it's not like some abstract thing.

Josh: What do you think of balance then? How do you— because everyone says, I know you just need a balanced diet and do Do you think?

John: Oh yeah, obviously. Yeah, yeah, that's probably okay. Nothing against that. But there's also nothing against— people, I think people do kind of exaggerate the dangers of getting healthy a bit much. Like when, like, in the overall scheme of things, it's not like the problem with the world is too many people are trying to get healthy. It's definitely not my problem. And so yeah, so yeah, it's just, yeah, it's fine.

Josh: Do you think there's a difference between health and weight loss?

John: Uh, yeah, obviously on some— well, you have to get some expert in about that. But then also, I don't kind of like— I, I don't, I don't try to overthink it that much. So no, there is a connection between weight loss and health, and that you'll just be— one will, depending on, you know, obviously there's outlier cases where it's like not like that, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, if you're a bit, uh, wobbly, then you can like— yeah, like if you lost, uh, you lost, say, 120 to— how much do you weigh now?

Josh: Probably weigh 93 now.

John: Yeah. So how, like, why even have some like abstract intellectual conversation about whether all the pros—

Josh: like, clearly, like, I felt good, I felt good doing it, but then people say, oh no, like, that's not— like, your obsession isn't good, like, your approach isn't right, like, you're, uh you're eating dark chocolate and that's great, but that's not a proper meal. You need to eat a meal.

John: Okay, well, obviously everything, you know, in moderation or whatever.

Josh: But yeah, do you think that's a bit of a cop-out, the whole moderation thing? Are you a guy of moderation? You're going on a fucking 8 days.

John: Yeah, no, I'm not. I'm not. I'm on your side.

Tommy: I'm pro you.

Josh: I'm against the people who are spinning the moderation shit. You're spinning the same shit.

John: No, they're talking about how they're there's some outlier cases where, like, if, if someone is already healthy and is of a healthy weight, you know, that's my asterisk.

Josh: But is the moderation—

John: if someone's already healthy, of a healthy weight, like, it's probably not handy to have people saying, oh yeah, it's totally cool if you try to lose weight. But like, for everyone else who's just a bit, uh, wobbly, like, it probably, probably is fine.

Josh: I, I used to always consider moderation balance as people not wanting me to lose weight. Yeah, like almost a thing of like, oh, you're holding back the actual secret of just cut out carbs.

John: Yeah, no, no, yeah, you're right to be paranoid. I'm on your side.

Tommy: I think what you might be saying is a simplistic view or a simplistic piece of advice from somebody. Moderation is like what your mum says when you have stolen 7 bars of chocolate and smashed them. The long-term, the long-term results from moderation could be the the answer. It's the hardest thing though, because I think in the cases like you were training for months with me and, and you got such results, and I trained a bunch of people for the same time that got no results, but they weren't as hell-bent and obsessed on achieving something and doing everything that required.

Josh: You—

Tommy: I could make you lose 30 kilos if you listened to everything I said. Would you even want to? Absolutely not.

Josh: But we all know what we've got to do. No, you don't eat, you'll lose.

Tommy: John didn't know what to do. I mean, I told him what to do.

John: Yeah, I need benevolent dictators.

Tommy: I was a dictator and it worked, didn't it, John?

John: Yeah, it was good.

Tommy: You look great. Money and being a creator. I think young creators these days, it's a harder, maybe, maybe harder route to, you know, harder track to go down to convert your filmmaker or storytelling abilities into cash.

Josh: Struggling artists have been around for a long time.

Tommy: I guess. Yeah, I guess. I mean, what's your view on money and being a creator? Uh, like, what's your relationship?

John: No, no, it definitely seems, uh, easier to get stuff published these days or to film stuff because equipment's much cheaper and you can upload anything to YouTube and you can—

Tommy: yeah, which could write it—

John: write anything on Medium. But yeah, when it comes to converting that to money, that can be more difficult than in the old days, even amongst It's like, like in the old days, I guess, like in my early 20s, I managed to slip through where I was one of the really lucky ones who, like, people wanted to commission work from. So, and, and, and there is an element that the lucky ones these days don't get paid as well as, like, when it comes to, uh, like if you're a well-respected writer or something and then whatever, what, The Guardian, or I don't know who, I don't I don't know what their rate is, but, you know, like the rate per word hasn't gone up since the '90s.

Tommy: So, yeah. Well, I mean, more people can make videos these days. Does it mean that if there's more people making videos, it's harder to— the pool of money is being accessed by more people, lowering the amount that people can make?

Josh: And there's probably a long tail of people making absolutely nothing as well.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Like happy with it just being a hobby.

John: I don't think it's that though. I don't think people are making less money because the pool's bigger or something like that or whatever you said. It's just publishers can get away with not paying people.

Josh: Why is that, though? Supply and demand. More people, right?

John: Yeah, something like that. But I mean, it probably will kind of— what do you call it— recalibrate or something. Because like, I even remember like BuzzFeed has gone through a few stages where like their first thing was, oh, well, we don't need any writers because we just need listicle writers. And then, but then they were searching for writers that had sort of like a reputation because then that made the brand look stronger or whatever. So yeah, I don't know enough about the topic, but yeah, I find it really frustrating. Not, not me personally, because I fortunately have figured out a way to— so I'm not whining on behalf of myself. I'm whining on behalf of other people. Yeah. But yeah, there is something so frustrating about how people go on the internet because they want to read the news and like find out things. And somehow, uh, so The Age in Australia and the Sydney Morning Herald in America, then New York Times or whatever, they're the ones who are providing all this, yet somehow they don't get all the money. You know, it's like Google AdSense and Facebook or the equivalents. Like, why do they— I just don't get it because it's not, it's not like, uh, newspapers are going out of business because people don't want to read newspapers, like, or newspaper sites. It's— they're going out of business because Facebook and Google have figured out how to take all the money, and, and the money doesn't stay with the, uh, The Age and The New York Times. Therefore, that— yeah, they can't pay writers as much.

Tommy: If you had to do your career again, what, what do you think— what medium would you choose? How would— do you think you could find success in it again?

John: Uh, well, at the moment I'm really enjoying— I have this fantasy world that for some reason I know how to write fiction and like screenplays or something, and then I can just sit at home and be hidden and write it.

Josh: Says the— I feel like you're revealing your cards, crying in December.

John: Yes, crying in December. So I'd like to do that, I guess.

Josh: But where's the appeal? What's the appeal in that? Is it the action of being alone writing?

John: Oh, I don't know. It's just more like you feel vulnerable, like walking out the front door. So yeah, it'd just be a balance to that. Except I just— you have to like count your blessings and not be so whiny or whatever. So the reason I have to do the work the way I do it is because the way I have worked out how to tell storeys is I go out there and I record conversations and I record my thoughts in the moment I'm living them. And then after I piece that all together, and then it becomes a storey that people want to read. And that's— I can't do that without going through that process. So I couldn't— I, I had to write— I mentioned before, I wrote this 1-hour kind of, uh, episode of television, this fiction that was a thriller. Or whatever. Anyway, so I was in the writer's room with the other writers, and you kind of like plot out what the general gist of the episodes or whatever. And then when I got home, I still treat— I had to write, actually write things myself. I still treated it as if it was— I was doing a documentary. So for instance, there was a bit where these guys break into a car, and I was like, well, I don't know how to break into a car. And then so I put out on Instagram, I said, oh, does anyone here know how to break into a car? And then, yeah, I got the DM, you know, whatever, 15 minutes later. And then like an hour later, I'm down the street with these two guys and they're telling me how to break into a car. And I'm sort of taking notes and recording what they're saying. And then, yeah, and then I go back to my flat and then I sort of like write the scene based on that. So I still, even with fiction, I still need to treat it like doco because I just don't know how to do it any other way.

Tommy: I love it. So you live the scene.

John: Yeah.

Tommy: So you can actually reflect it. It's great.

Josh: What makes a good subject in regards, like, the, the person? What do they need to bring to the table?

John: Oh, well, one really cool thing about writing about crime, which is obviously not good for the victims or for the person put in jail for stabbing the victim, but one of the good things when you're a writer is that, um, it's an in— basically that, like, there's no boring murders. And also everyone's interesting, or nearly everyone's interesting, and it's just they mightn't seem interesting generally because they're not put in this sort of like high-pressure situation where they, uh, have to reveal themselves or have to sort of like really, you know, test what they believe and everything. So, uh, so many people are interesting. It, um, and in fact, one of my regrets of my, my last week in New Zealand was because I was so focused on the cigarette companies when I was hanging out with all the vaping people, I feel like I was too reductive. And I was like, oh, we're going through Hobbiton— that's that Hobbit film set— or whatever. And it goes, I won't, I won't record this because it's not about vaping, even though— and then just when I came back home, I was just going, oh, I should have just recorded more of that because people are just interesting. And, uh, anyway, so yeah, people are pretty interesting. And so But situations where that are interesting is where, yeah, is where it's something that's generally hidden from us and you figure out a way to get in there and peek behind the curtain. And yeah, that's what's interesting.

Josh: What about people who do shtick? So you talk about you've got shtick. Does shtick make for good characters or does it make it harder?

John: Oh yeah, sometimes, like, there is a, there is a thing these days where everyone's so used to everyone's watched reality TV, and, and also everyone like uploads all their thoughts all the time on the internet. So everyone's in a performance all the time. So sometimes that, that isn't great. That can be kind of like, like for if I'm meeting someone and they're, they're doing that, then that, that's not always great. Although I guess it could be great if I was somehow made that their thing, you know, like they're doing shtick. But I, I have Occasionally, like, I've gone to parties or whatever, and then the first back and forth with people is like a bit of sarcastic stuff, and then I kind of want to ease into just the normal conversation, and they won't let go. And then, so then it's like 2 minutes later, 3 minutes later, and no matter what I do to try to like land them on like, can we just ease into like the normal conversation and not the thing where you say the sarcastic thing that's the reverse of what you really mean? And like, yeah, can't. Yeah, that, that can be, um that can be not great.

Tommy: I think I've observed that, and with you and people in the gym, and if we went down Carlos Street where the gym was, it may be based on the shtick that you put out, you know, the joker, the prankster, or someone pushing the boundaries. People like— I remember hearing one person in particular how they'd speak to you, and it was that sarcasm and like You know, it's like, ah, we're— it's the joke, we got the joke here.

Josh: They think they're doing improv.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: When it's—

John: that's okay, you know, it's like I'm, I'm a worse person than them. I'm not like, in general, so I'm not like judging them or whatever. Like, I wish I was such a good person that the worst thing about me was I did shtick.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think if we look at our characters as the shtick, so you probably have a better interpretation of my shtick than I do.

Josh: Definitely. As your shtick, you never talk about having shtick, but your hair is your shtick. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: I think it's— if I was to pinpoint it for myself, it's like, it's almost the confident PT. Yeah, I haven't left, John.

John: Yeah, I'm still the confident PT.

Tommy: Not at all.

Josh: I train myself.

Tommy: I train myself, but I can't— once a PT, always a PT. Can't shake it.

Josh: Uh, overthinking— are you someone who, uh, gets into that.

John: Yeah, there's no real denying that. But yeah, that's probably why I should get married or something, because then you just have to just get married, have a kid, and then like other things will just fill up the space and then you won't have the luxury of overthinking. Yeah, because it'll be like—

Tommy: it's a good point.

Josh: What about self-talk? You talk about all the shame and all that sort of thing. Yeah. Do you actually like— if you, if you actually just— because I think there's a sense that you you can definitely take your— what you say on face value. Yeah, at face value it's funny, it's shtick and all that sort of thing. But I guess I enjoy the next level of like someone who lives in that space. Yeah, could also go through— like, I guess you've got like the, uh, super highs but also like the lower points where it's not serving you. Do you feel— do you feel that, or have you created some magical world where you can, uh, be negative to yourself and still feel— be okay with it?

John: Oh no, I'm not, I'm not okay with it, but I do, I do try to ride it out and not fight it too much. I don't know if it's quite what you're asking, but I remember when the last election between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, and there just became a point where people were going, oh, people aren't listening to her anymore. Like, she can try to come up with the best argument, and she can have the best arguments, but like it's just not flowing her way for anymore. So I definitely like feel that, like where I kind of put projects out and I feel like I'm, I'm, you know, I'm riding the wave, and then there'll be something else where I feel like it's not quite connecting with an audience as much, or— and but yeah, and rather than fighting it, I realise like there's nothing you can do about that. So you sort of just have to kind of ride it out a bit and sort of like look at the long game or whatever.

Josh: What about like, uh, say like I'm thinking of my own personal examples, shame or whatever associated with like, ah, with being 130, 120.

Tommy: He put a bit of salt and pepper on it, didn't he?

Josh: I appreciate it. Uh, no, I guess like the, the day-to-day shame or being like, I don't go out enough, or I don't do this, or I don't do that.

John: I have a lot of shame around— I can't believe when I look at the book, like, that I've written these books because Procrastination.

Josh: Do you get into procrastination?

John: I do procrastinate. I'm both lazy and a workaholic. I don't know how it works or whatever. Like, probably I'm sort of quite proud of my last book, how I, I, from day one— because usually with my books I get a bit confused about when I started it and then when it finished or whatever. But my last book about Extremist, I, I know the day I first went to do my first day of research because it was based on this rally. And I can just type into Google, oh, that rally happened on the 4th of May, 2015, or something like that. And then I stopped writing the book basically the day Donald Trump was elected, so that's another date or whatever. And then the book got a release date. And I can't believe, you know, like how many words are in a book. I somehow goddamn wrote this book like in 12 months, and then it got out a bit, just a bit after that or whatever. So, and that seems really weird to me because I, I know inside me I'm really lazy and a procrastinator.

Josh: So does that make it all feel better then? Because maybe like that internal voice of like, I fucking did it.

John: Yes.

Josh: Is that sort of the, uh, the contrast that makes it okay?

John: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I, I just, I reckon there'd have to be just a little nudge and I'd be so much better at, um, working. I don't know what I've, what I've done wrong, but yeah. But at least, but I have got the stuff out there eventually, and then Then you find out, particularly in writing, is like authors are such procrastinators. So over at Penguin, like, I'm feeling guilty because I'm like 2 weeks late with some draught or whatever. And then you just hear the storey that there's this other writer and like they're 4 years late. I'm like, what the hell was I like pulling my hair out being 2 weeks late?

Josh: But yeah, the format of podcasts and interviews, because you are an overthinker and you enjoy the meta and you enjoy sarcasm.

John: Yeah.

Josh: Do you find it hard to lean into formats, or if you see something— so say for like a podcast, some of the interviews go into this sort of deep past and going into like, uh, you know, what were you like as a kid?

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: Do you find that you push back on formats or clichés?

John: No, no, not at all. I reckon podcasts are really cool. And, and so if I'm like pushing back on anything, it's just like a regular person would be like, oh, I don't really want to like show my bad side, you know. I don't want to show my emotional 120-kilogram side. And, uh, and so yeah, it'd just be that. But you know what I'm really into now, which isn't quite podcasts, is vaping. Besides, whilst I'm at home vaping, I like to— I'm sure everyone does this— where you like fall down these YouTube rabbit holes about subjects that you have no interest in, like, on the surface level, but then on this deeper level, because everything's about, like, tribalism and, like, little wars and pettiness and revenge and, or whatever. And so you start, like, listen— listening to these things, and, and they're like the soap operas that are kind of nourishing you. And so the thing at the moment, and it's a really great time to be into this for the last couple of months, and I'm— I have nothing against science fiction I have nothing against Star Wars or Doctor Who or whatever. It's just not my jam. You know, I've never been into it and I don't know how it started, but I fell into the YouTube embittered former Star Wars obsessive who now thinks, you know, Disney has ruined it all. And, and there's quite a few of those channels. There's— they're like fundamentalists. They're simultaneously like really into Star Wars, but they just think Disney has just screwed it up and that The Last Jedi ruined it all. And there's, um, now there's this moment where, because the last film's about to come out, I think like next week or whatever, but it's been like building in this kind of apocalyptic sense, you know, like if someone's in a cult and it's like the end days is going to be this date on December 12th, all the whole world's going to end, and there's like this, this throbbing kind of world going on. So yeah, so for that, that little scene, they've been like building and building and building for months because it's, it's all going to end next week where Rise of the Jedi— and they really want it— or Rise of Skywalker— and it's like they really want it to be shit, to be shit, because they've been building and building. And, and, and they, they're kind of obsessive and scary in a way because I know the names of like the crew members on You know, like, I get, you know, the name George Lucas. Like, I know the name George Lucas. Like, why do you know the name of the, you know, the second AD on the Mandalorian or whatever?

Tommy: I mean, they're putting the focus into something that you would, but it is actually a job for you. I think like starting out as a creator, it's— you need to have passion projects because you don't have any body of work to prove that you should be paid or you should be signed to write a book. Is there a few books in, TV shows? Are you doing passion projects that aren't connected to someone signing you on for it, or—

John: uh, we've got no time? No, that's not true. I, I do a lot of, uh, what do you call it, is it spec work? I don't know what you know. I do, I do a lot of things where I'm like writing up ideas that sort of, for whatever reason, end up going nowhere. So I'm doing that all the time, and And I remember I was going— when I was writing for this magazine Good Weekend, uh, and I was doing like crime storeys for them, I was just doing a lot of poking around where I'd like turn up to court, like I'd hear something through someone else and turn up to court, and you spend like the day in court and that, that thing wouldn't go anywhere. And my last book about extremists, the starting point was exactly, exactly that, where it was just on— I saw roll into my Facebook feeds this, uh, like, oh, it was like this left-wing counter-rally. Those are going, oh, skinheads are going to be on the streets of Melbourne. And I was like, what the fuck? And, you know, outside Parliament House. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. Like, what, skinheads? Like, I don't think I've seen a skinhead except, you know, in Romper Stomper or whatever. Yeah. And so I just like got on the train that morning and, you know, just hung out there and sort of like took it all in and then realised there was a storey there that kind of ended up And then, then I— it started off as tweets. I was writing all these sarcastic tweets about the, the skinheads and stuff, like, uh, I'm at the rally here this morning at the Reclaim rally in Melbourne, so if you see me, come over and say hail and stuff like that. I was doing all this stuff, and then someone from, I think, the Herald Sun or contacted me and said, oh, can you write an article about that? Because like, you had all these Good tweets. And then I wrote an article about that, like just an 800-word piece or something. And then through that, that's when, yeah, I went to Penguin and then it like became a book or whatever. So yeah, so I do a lot of poking around. I also do— I write up so many ideas. If you spoke to a couple of the producers I work with, I reckon you'd be surprised like how many— like, because you get these kind of like fishing exhibitions from other networks or whatever where it's like, oh, John, we love it. Oh, please, please, any idea or whatever. And so then you spend like, whatever, a week coming up with something and kind of ends up going nowhere. Yeah. And yes, I've got quite a big filing cabinet filled with that.

Tommy: And so, yeah, so you keep them— these hard copies.

Josh: How do you capture the ideas? Are they happening in a sort of controlled environment where you're like, okay, ABC want me to present a bunch of ideas, I'm going to come up with 15, or is it like you're on the tram and you've come up with something?

John: Uh, I don't know, it's a bit of both or whatever. The— yeah, so I often— they want something that's, uh, you know, in the ballpark, in the themes of my previous— so yeah, obviously I became a bit of the, hey, Saffron's the guy who knows a lot about the alt-right and extremists and ISIS and stuff. So I got a lot of people allegedly wanting ideas around that, which I kind of wrote up many times in many different ways and just didn't go nowhere.

Josh: What about like notes? Like, are you on your iPhone? Yeah, putting in—

John: yeah, yeah, I write notes or whatever, and I, I jump around all, all the time. Like, sometimes I'm convinced I need to write it on like pieces of paper, and then you're just going into your jacket pocket.

Tommy: Oh my God, yellow Look, I've got this just in case.

John: Like, let me just write something down here.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Left-handed. Yeah.

Josh: He's saying 120 kilograms. You'll never forget that.

John: Yes. Yeah.

Josh: How much of that, like, so how much thought goes into that? Because I know Jerry Seinfeld uses yellow legal pads for all of his jokes.

John: I reckon that's part of the process is when you're— you don't have an idea, it's like you become obsessive about stationery. I do that all the time. I, I—

Josh: but I think that's how much obsession has gone into it. Like, what does that say about you?

John: The— yeah, no, I think it's part of the ritual. It's, it's part of the ritual where— but, but I always find, yeah, it is kind of annoying because when you have your killer idea, it's like, oh my God, I don't have pen and paper or whatever, and you just go into Woolworths and get this like crappy biro and scratchy thing, and then you scratch it on a thing, and then that becomes the idea. And it's like, oh, I wish I'd written that idea with like a quill or, or, you know, a fountain pen or something. Yeah, I've gone through all of that stuff of like buying an expensive Lamy pen and buying a fountain pen and all that. God, just to sort of—

Tommy: sounds like a guy I know.

Josh: Yeah, I've done that. Yeah, it's all because fountain pens are actually quite hard to use.

John: Yeah, yeah, they're no good or whatever. But I also do— I do— I, I've done— I do the, uh, Oh, my phone's over there. I do the scribble and then scan.

Josh: Okay, yeah, sure.

John: So I, when I was on the plane from New Zealand back here, I scribbled some ideas on a serviette, just like people imagine an artist to do, and then—

Tommy: or barefoot—

John: and then, yeah, and then I just took a photo of it and, or scan, I scanned it.

Josh: What do you think the biggest misconception is about you?

John: I don't know because I don't know what people think about me or whatever.

Josh: Well, it's funny because like I know all the questions I'm asking— like, are annoying to you? No, no, but that's why I'm annoyed now because I know that like I feel like you wouldn't have an answer. You don't— like you don't really have an answer.

John: I think it's because there's all these different versions of me in my work so I wouldn't know. So before I like did the Triple J radio show and I was just doing like TV work. That was really— I had a big control over like my image because you can just, you can write the stuff and you present it and edit it. And I always liked how that version of me, this kind of heightened version of me, wasn't really me. I mean, it was kind of an element of me or whatever. And so I imagine back then I could say, oh, people think I'm really like woohoo and stuff, when really I'm more— but then like after 10 years of On Triple J, now everyone knows that's part of me too. So I don't know. I don't know. Why? What do you think? What's a— what's a perception of me? And I'll tell you whether it's true or not.

Tommy: What's your perception, Josh, of John?

Josh: Um, yeah, you're like a creative overthinker who, uh, enjoys the friction of putting yourself in situations and then writing about it.

Tommy: Yes.

Josh: You are really interested in people. But also can deal with not having them at times. And yeah, I just find the— I don't know, but I think that that's probably the standard thing. I think that like I've— what I'm curious about is I feel like potentially I've bought into the caricature of Jon Safran. And so what I'm trying to do is work out those nuances.

John: Oh yeah, no, that's pretty— yeah, maybe.

Josh: You catch public transport.

John: Yeah, maybe, maybe in, in 5 years' time I can have turned things around so that perception's totally at odds because it's like, oh no, I don't think about that anymore. I'm just spending all my time—

Josh: well, the thing that Tommy always— Tommy says about every interview I nearly ask, uh, do you see a therapist?

John: Uh, no, no, but people tell me I should, so that's bad.

Tommy: Why do you think?

Josh: Because I— because this is— because Tommy always says You always ask people, why haven't you gone? And I'm like, oh well, I don't know, it seems like a lot of admin. What's the—

John: I just feel like, maybe everyone feels like this, I just feel like if I was to talk to a therapist, there'd be two things. It'd be like, shut up, John, you do know people come in here where they've got like real problems, like where they've been like tied to a heater by their parents for like 10 years and hit over the head. And then you're coming in here with your stupid— like, I'd be thinking that on the one hand, and then on the other hand, I reckon my problems would just be like really cringy. Like, I'm just too embarrassed to say them. So it's a combination of they're not important enough, oh, they're not big enough compared to other people's problems, plus I reckon they're more cringy than other people's problems.

Josh: What about vulnerability? How has that played in your life? Uh, because there's faux vulnerability.

John: Yeah, there's a lot of that. I reckon what— this doesn't quite answer your question, but I have noticed that That's your favourite line?

Josh: You question shit, but I'm gonna— I'll tell you a bit about my fucking water rafting.

John: No, no, when I did like Race Around the World and that early stuff, there's a lot of me like oversharing. Like for instance, uh, talking about being really hurt because the girl's just broken up with me and that's why I'm in West Africa, um, with these voodoo priests. I'm gonna get a voodoo curse put on anyway. And there was a bit of like oversharing like that, but when I did it back then, people oversharing wasn't a thing because it wasn't like social media, and especially like men oversharing was not a thing.

Josh: So oversharing's in now, and so you're out.

John: So when I— yes, exactly. So when I did that, part of the reason was it just seemed really odd that you got on TV, someone like, what the hell, like, like indulgent in a funny way and whatever, and just strange. It's like, why is this person like talking about their thing? And also a guy talking about it. But now life has moved on so much I reckon when you look back at it, I just sang like a— like, because every YouTuber is like an oversharer. Like, you look back at my work, it's like, yeah, fine, John, but why aren't you crying? And, you know, and all that.

Tommy: What made you do it then? Or is it just—

John: no, I think like creative instinct. I just thought it was, uh, it just seemed kind of energetic and sort of funny and inappropriate and stuff like that.

Josh: So What's that version for you now, do you think? What are the, what are the tools? If that's like a mechanism, like oversharing is a tool, yeah, what's some other tools that you use now?

John: Uh, I, I always— and, and it's really hard to do when you're in the midst of it because you don't have the bird's eye view of it all, but I, I just try to record what I'm thinking about the, the matter at hand at any point, and it's always, it's always really helpful because then when you have to write, you've got a record of how you're thinking on day 1. Is that totally at odds of what you're thinking at day 13 and stuff?

Josh: How would you do that now if you were to give us a demo?

John: A demo?

Josh: Be the, uh, be the sort of the con—

Tommy: like, you know, be reflection on this podcast talking about it.

John: Oh yeah, so I'd say, uh, I'd get your— like, for my book, so first of all, I'd just be thinking, oh, 'How can this be helpful for my book on smoking?' So I'd be trying to get your opinions on what vapours were, and then, uh, yeah, and then I'd record that, I guess. And then I wouldn't make a comment about your weight. Do you know, you know, one of the annoying things about writing— this is the most annoying thing about writing— is that you're not— writing's about describing things And but you're just not allowed to. It just seems really bad to kind of mention that the person you're being interviewed, you're interviewing, is sort of, um, well, I think you did mention, I think you mentioned, um, uh, in the Audible podcast.

Josh: Oh yeah, definitely. Uh, the fat was one of the, like, I think you used fat a few times.

John: Oh no, that was for the fat Australians or whatever.

Josh: No, no, no, 97. Do you remember what was that?

Tommy: Yeah, it was— I can't remember what the actual word was, but yeah, it was, it was something like portly or something like that, because there's a whole movement now.

Josh: A friend of mine said, I've stopped listening to your podcast because, uh, you talk a lot about food and fat. And there's a whole thing around like, uh, the, um, it's like intuitive— have you heard of intuitive eating? Is that when you just eat what you fucking want? Yeah, it's the anti-diet thing. But there's a whole chap— there's a bunch of chapters around culture and how all these conversations around fat and all that, and the language that we use frames up that shame. Yeah, it's almost about like, oh, you know, letting go of that type of thing. Like, how much of that, I wonder, description of this chubby person, this fat person, is linked to self-image.

John: Oh, absolutely. But I think in the— because you were talking in the, in the, in the podcast, so in the occult thing, I'm talking about the how my dad came back from Vanuatu on this— oh, that's right, on this boat. And because he went on a tour and his whole thing was about how like everyone on the boat, there's this Australian boat was like maybe 10% if that of people were of like a normal weight and everyone else was either obese, obese, or morbidly obese, or then, or just merely a little overweight or whatever.

Josh: Yeah, but there was another, what was the one that was like almost fat or something? But then in that I talk about, I laugh at it, like I laugh at it, but then I find the things I laugh at with different types of people, they can be like, oh, you know how you're laughing at that and you think it's funny, like that's actually like, you're actually really sad about that.

John: Oh yeah, that could be. Yeah, but isn't that thing, don't I mention that it's like I put it back on me about how I'm trying to lose weight on the trip, so I'm not like some skinny guy like, like tripping up the fat.

Josh: But that's my whole, that's what Tommy and I talk about. It's like, I feel like, yeah, I can talk about it because I've been fat and still feel that I am. But then I guess there is that sort of the other angle, which is sort of around culture and us talking about it, that then perpetuates the, the issue potentially.

John: I know, I think it's, I think it's—

Josh: am I overthinking about it?

John: No, no, no, you're not overthinking it, but you're, uh, if that's the worst thing about, you don't have to feel like you're a bad person. Like, it's, it's not your fault that other people are feeling that. That's probably better you're talking about food and eating and about formerly being 100 and—

Josh: what was it?

John: 140 kilograms.

Tommy: I mean, on the other side of all these things, it could be helping somebody in some way.

John: Yes.

Tommy: Someone who talks negatively or laughs about how they were fat, and how, you know, that could actually help them. It's like, is there a lighter side to this?

Josh: Empathy— where does empathy fit with what you do?

John: Well, no one ever— no matter how I write things, people don't really find that I'm writing them really empathetically about people. But I don't— I try to, I try to, but people don't read it that way, which must mean I'm failing at making— like, everyone always thinks I'm just like getting the most, uh, scalding kind of, uh, eviscerations of people and stuff like that, when really I'm thinking, oh no, I just did a little bit of a funny little quip or whatever like that.

Josh: I was watching ABC's Love on the Spectrum, which is all about, uh, people with autism going on dates. And since watching that, I can only look at every— the world through people and where they are on the spectrum. Because I think that I potentially— I've got like a very slight bit.

John: Oh yeah.

Josh: That idea of being a bit disconnected between what you think you're doing and what you actually are doing.

John: I know, I know.

Josh: How many people talk about, or how many times it come up in your life around autism or the spectrum and things like that.

John: Oh, are you like, you know, long windy way asking if you're autistic? Yeah, no, only once, except on this everyone else went, and so I realised everyone else had been thinking it.

Josh: My business manager teacher asked if I had Asperger's.

John: I don't know the difference between Asperger's and autism.

Josh: I think it's a, it's a, it's a flavor. And so what did that, how did that even come about?

John: I was just at work, and when I was at Triple J and not on air or anything, and then I think someone mentioned it. Oh, John, do you think you're a bit on the spectrum? And that was the only time it's ever come up. But ever since that came up, I've been thinking, yeah, people must think that. And also, so I occasionally would listen back to like the Triple J podcasts, and I would, I would say, oh my God, like I sound like a, a crazy person or something.

Josh: So is it a mood? Can you be on the spectrum on a Tuesday, be like, but I but be okay on a Wednesday?

Tommy: Like, no, no, no, it's always there.

John: It's always there.

Josh: I think that's interesting. Do you have— from here, I'm enjoying that. I'm enjoying what this format specifically.

Tommy: Yes, we're getting meta on the question that we're asking. Yes. Which I think—

Josh: do you like playing meta?

John: Yeah, sure, why not?

Tommy: Do you like wine?

Josh: Do you like wine? Do you drink?

John: Uh, My dad actually said something to me on the phone yesterday where I was going, my God, does my dad think I'm a drunk? Because he brought up something he saw in some, uh, he goes, oh yeah, I just, I, I heard, I read that, uh, you know, if you have 1.5 glasses of red wine a night, that's okay, but not more. I'm like, what's this coming from? Like, I think he thinks I'm a drunk, but I don't know where would that come from. Well, He— I blame him for starting this narrative because he, he had all this wine stored, uh, in, in his garage from somewhere, whatever. And he's— and he said, oh, do you know, do you want some of this or what? And I was like, okay, whatever.

Josh: So I took some of it and then was it really like whatever, or were you sort of a bit excited?

John: No, if I was drinking wine, I'd prefer my dad not to know, so I prefer to hand over the cash at a bottle-o.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

John: And get, get the wine without my dad being involved in this shameful habit at all.

Josh: So it is a shameful habit.

John: Well, it could be if you order—

Tommy: How many glasses of wine are you having a night?

John: Why are you on my dad's side anyway?

Tommy: But he—

Josh: so he's—

John: so through this, he started this narrative of like, I'm into wine, and I only said yes once.

Josh: I love wine.

John: Yeah, I've got nothing against wine, but I'm not like drunk. And then how the hell has my father now twisted this?

Josh: That like, you're having more than 1.5 glasses a night?

John: Am I? No.

Josh: Okay. Would you like— because I was wondering, like, last night I was really building up the idea of I'd love— like, I only started drinking this year. I'm 29. Yeah, just started drinking this year. Um, and red wine is my go-to because it seems like there's something nice. And I said this to Tommy, I'm like, you can't really be a drunk on red wine. And he pointed out there are many drunks—

John: oh no, it's true—

Josh: prefer red wine.

John: Do you know I'm not a drunk? I'll tell you why. I can tell you this is because I was talking to this dude, a science dude. I don't know if he's actually a scientist or whatever, and he was part of, uh, he's part of a— what do you call a thing? It's not testing, investigation. What did scientists—

Josh: experiment? I don't know, hypothesis?

John: I don't know what the hell it is. Anyway, because I've put out on social media that I'm working on this book on smoking and cigarettes and vaping or whatever.

Josh: So a trial?

John: Yeah, a trial or something.

Tommy: Clinical testing.

John: Yeah, clinical testing. So people got back to me and this one guy said, oh, I'm at the moment working on this clinical trial, or we're about to go into it, uh, seeing whether vaping helps people get off, uh, things like addictions like, uh, alcohol, too much alcohol and drugs and things like that. So I started out straight away, I was thinking Oh, this could be cool for my book, but like, if I get to be one of the subjects in the thing. So I said to him, oh, how much do you have to drink to, uh, to be an alcoholic enough to go into this clinical trial or whatever? And he said, he goes, well, how much do you drink or whatever? And I said, and I was sort of, I looked at the worst case scenario, I said, I've had like a friend over and we'll go through the whole bottle of red wine and maybe— and oh, and also I've taken— I've had friend over when— and we have gin and we'll go through like 3/4 of the bottle of gin. That's a lot. Like the bottle of red wine, maybe not 3/4 of the bottle of gin. And he said no. He said that you have to— it can't just be every so often. He says every day you have to be having 3 bottles of red wine to be an alcoholic.

Josh: So that's the benchmark. So if I did 2 Yeah, bottles of wine a night. I'm all G. It is good.

John: Have you looked up— so my concern with you and red wine is the calories. So I was wondering, because I think that gin and vodka, like, if— because I support alcoholism, but I'm thinking like gin and vodka might be—

Josh: can it be as— because I guess part of the red wine is I'm sort of building this poser status of I got books.

Tommy: Do you stand in front of your books?

Josh: Um, yeah, but what is like, if I was trying to be a poser and I wanted to sort of have sort of an intellectual—

John: oh yeah, alcohol.

Josh: Yeah, they're fine with low cal, like low calorie. Yeah, vodka just seems like a little bit—

Tommy: it's whiskey. It's whiskey on the rocks.

Josh: Like, if you want to— Jason Fox, our mate, he, he does whiskey tasting and stuff.

Tommy: If you're drinking gin and water or gin and soda water or vodka, you're just wanting it Vodka, lime, and soda. Like, you're just wanting to feel different at that point. Really?

John: I'm taking a bottle of gin with me on the 8-day.

Josh: You've already worked that out?

John: Yeah, I know. Oh my God.

Tommy: What do you take?

John: You're allowed to take alcohol. I really wish I said the word alcohol.

Josh: He's drunk. So that thinking, working that out, because that's definitely something I would do, which is work out in advance Yeah, what do you pull it out?

Tommy: It's like, I'm vibing the people here, and it's like, party!

Josh: Who told you that? Who said you can bring that? You're only going to Tassie.

John: Yeah, but they, they've got like a YouTube video of like packing your bag, and it's— they tell you all the things you need to bring, and they say alcohol. Yeah, they're saying you can. It's like that, it's like thermal underwear, socks, da da da, bring a book, and then yeah, you can bring alcohol if you want. But, but you have to pour it into a plastic. You have to decant it into a plastic container, which kind of takes the romance a bit out of it.

Josh: Because I feel like you need like a glass and like a big circular, like, ball ice thing.

John: Yeah, I think they want you to bring a box of goon.

Josh: On the red wine thing, very quickly. How long after you open a bottle do you need to finish it, do you think?

John: Oh yeah, that is, that is tough. Do you know if you, if you finish it in one night? Yeah, but this is the problem, this is the problem. Like, because if you live alone, you've got the one bottle of red wine, you're not going to drink it straight away, but then it's going to go off or whatever, or whatever.

Josh: So how long does that—

John: like, but then you can get like half bottles, but then it's like you might as well give up. Like, if you think ordering Uber to your door is like, oh my God, You get it's like as soon as you're going, oh, I live alone and I'll get a little half bottle.

Josh: Yeah, it's like, that's just too much.

Tommy: I think 24 hours you could have it at night and then the next night you can finish, finish it off. Have you got the bottle from last night? Is that what you're saying?

Josh: No. Well, we didn't end up doing it. And so because I spoke to Bree, my girlfriend, I was like, oh, I think that she works out when I'm like really hellbent. I've worked out that as long as I'm not hellbent on having a wine, she wants to have one. But as soon as I'm really interested, like, yeah, let's have a bottle. She's like, oh, maybe not tonight.

John: What's your nickname, Miss 97?

Josh: Mr. 97.

Tommy: That's him.

John: So that's, that's your mate?

Josh: Yeah, that's the producer. He got a 97 ATAR.

Tommy: He's the smartest in the room.

Josh: And so, and Tommy didn't finish high school and I got like a 40-something.

John: I don't know what ATAR is.

Tommy: IntoScore. Um, yeah, you know what IntoScore is?

John: Not really. I, I was like VCE.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's his VCE. He got 97. What did you get?

John: I didn't get a number out of 100. I got something like 300 and something.

Josh: Oh, that's right, it was some international school or some shit. No, just different.

John: Steiner School.

Josh: It's just different vibe.

John: I've got a— yeah, thank God I didn't go to a Steiner school. Why?

Josh: Too creative?

John: Yeah, it would have been. I didn't need that. I should have gone to a stricter school, you know what I mean, to balance things out.

Tommy: Okay, you've done all right.

Josh: You've done John Safran. Thanks for coming on the show.

John: No, thank you.

Josh: Uh, the, um, John Safran versus Occult— that is that how you say Occult?

John: What is it called? It's called John Safran versus The Occult.

Josh: The Occult. Is that how you pronounce it? Occult? O-O-C-U-L-T?

John: O-C-C-U-L-T. Yeah, that's on Audible. I think, I think I understand it's, it's like free.

Josh: Well, this is the thing. Well, I, I signed up for Audible back in like 2009 and I was on a US account, and so I've stayed on the US account And so I paid for— I don't know if it's because I'm outside.

Tommy: You can get a free trial through Audible Australia and you can access John's for free. It's just if you like it after 30 days, you can pay for this.

John: What I understand, seeing we want to end this on being like really boring and—

Josh: no, we like this—

John: is that I understand you only need to have an Amazon, Amazon account because Amazon owns Audible. So you know how everyone has an Amazon account and that's like free. That's all you need. Like, you don't even need to sign up for any trial or nothing. Oh good, that's what I've heard.

Tommy: I've seen the free trial thing, but that sounds better. I mean, I just use Josh's Audible account.

Josh: Do you know what, how about this? This is pretty embarrassing. When you're looking at my accounts— actually, fuck, I feel like Audible could listen to this because you're on it, and then they go— no, but I— on my information, on the, uh, section around, uh, is it in settings? This is great, this is great content. Josh's 40th Audible. For iPhone. I've given it to a few friends and it's reached 40 people.

Tommy: So how many do you actually think you've given it to?

Josh: Well, I think I need to just change my password because I've probably given it to maybe 10 people.

Tommy: Can we please do it, change it and see who comes out of the woodwork? Yeah, mate, you're an absolute tight-ass if you come out and say, oh, Josh, it's, um, it's the guy you haven't spoken to in a while.

Josh: Do you listen to audiobooks?

John: Uh, yeah, I have. The main ones I remember is occasionally I had to go on this review— didn't have to, I went on this review show on the ABC, like Tuesday Night Book Club. So we had to read several books for that, and I remember like listening to the audiobook just to speed it along.

Tommy: John, is there anything that the people that listen to this show could help you with for your new book?

John: Oh, thank you so much for asking that. I guess, well, it's about the future of smoking. And so it's generally about how, uh, big companies are like leaning into the world of like vaping and medical marijuana and everything like that to try to, uh— anyway, the long and the short of it is like if you work at a cigarette company, that'd be really handy.

Josh: Oh, what are people doing at cigarette companies? What sort of roles?

Tommy: Marketing, I guess. Actually, yeah, I mean, comms. Some, uh, some kind of relation.

Josh: Have you found any interesting ways that they're communicating if you can't advertise?

John: Yeah, well, that's the book.

Tommy: Yes, John, um, I, I appreciate what you do and the stuff you put out into the world.

John: I— thanks for training me.

Tommy: No worries, mate. I've somehow reeled you into all the different things post-training. I got you to do a video with me once. It went nowhere.

Josh: Really? Like a testimonial?

Tommy: No, it was a video boxing, and so it was like combination between fitness and then like presenting or some kind of content. You remember that? Best that you don't. But now I've roped you into this, and, um, I appreciate you giving us your time, mate.

John: No, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's a daily talk show. Well done on your weight loss.

Josh: Thank you. And I feel more comfortable now talking about fat and just leaning into the word and all that sort of thing. Uh, it's a daily talk show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Uh, enjoy the rest of the day.

John: See you tomorrow.

Josh: See you guys.