Reframing Coaching With Michael Bungay Stanier

Michael: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 535. Special guest in the studio, Michael Bungay Stanier.

Michael: You know what, I have 535 tattooed on my chest. I mean, it's been my lucky number forever, so what are the odds?

Tommy: Is that your lucky shirt too with the bananas on it?

Michael: That's a lucky shirt. I like anything with a fruit theme.

Tommy: Uh, you— I love your getup, and I— and you've just revealed your tattoo that I didn't see when we spent a day doing a workshop with you.

Michael: I like that.

Josh: What is the tattoo?

Michael: It is meant to be the Australian gum tree. So I live in Canada and I love Australia. I miss it when I'm there. So as a kind of totemic piece, I got a gum tree. I spent 4 years trying to find a tattoo artist who would design this because I had this vision for what it would be. And I keep going into studios and they go, I don't get what you're talking about, mate. So they do say that because they're all Canadian. And I finally went into this one where this guy went, look, I've got a color, I've got an eye for it. I can give this a go.

Josh: I like it.

Tommy: I like it. Adventure.

Michael: So I'm like, fantastic. So he's— we do the first 3-hour session and he does the black outline, and I'm like, that's good. That— because we spent 3 months going back and forth on a design until we finally got one I liked. And then on the second session, I'm kind of lying there on his tattoo couch, kind of staring up at the ceiling and trying to ignore the pain. At a certain point, I look down and he is completely ignoring the design that we spent 3 or 4 months doing, and he's just freehanding stuff. And I'm like, It's a tattoo. It's not like a paragraph where you're like, can you just delete that and start again? I'm like, um, so okay, I was like, okay, I can't— we're committed now.

Josh: Did you bring it up?

Michael: No, because I was just like, okay, what I said to myself is whatever happens, I'm committed to loving this tattoo because, you know, you've got— it's like, it's all in the head. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna love this tattoo no matter what happens. And it turns out where he went with it was better than actually our design, so I love it now.

Tommy: Well, you said a eucalyptus tree. Gum tree.

Michael: Yeah, it's like a snow gum.

Tommy: If you're listening, it's a gum tree if you're looking at it on psychedelics, because it is colorful, it's beautiful. So it's a great— I love the take on a gum tree. Yeah, in its colourful pattern.

Michael: Well, I mean, gum trees, or see, some gum trees will have this kind of striation and a little kind of subtle colour to it, but it was like, it's bumped that up a little bit.

Tommy: I feel like it's quite on brand because when we— when I met you for the first time at your workshop, I, um, I loved your getup, I loved your vibe, and I loved your, the, your way of presenting even more so.

Michael: Yeah, thank you.

Tommy: I said to you as we were leaving, I said, I don't know what you did, but I've got more energy now after a full day workshop, then when I got—

Josh: Good catering.

Michael: Yeah, massive catering and actually psychedelics. We put psychedelics in the water. That also helps.

Josh: Was that your first tattoo?

Michael: No, my first tattoo was actually the— you see the little Southern Cross hidden in there?

Josh: I guess so.

Michael: So I got that done 30 years ago when I first left Australia, kind of before it became a symbol for the right-wing hate groups. But I'm like, okay, that's awkward. So partly why the gum tree is there is it kind of hides the Southern Cross. But I have a I love seeing the actual constellation when I come back to the Southern Hemisphere. And then because I live in Canada and I'm married to a Canadian, there's an Inuit snow geese. And so snow geese and geese in general, they mate for life. So it's a kind of Canadian shout out to my wife. When I first moved to Canada 20 years ago, I got that tattoo done.

Josh: Oh, that's nice.

Michael: And then 5:35 in honour of this episode. I mean, it's still a little tender because I only got it done like an hour and a half ago. So I'm like, it's a little awkward. I'm hunched a bit.

Tommy: Michael, you're an author, a coach. How do you describe who you are, what you do for a crust? Because it's not who you are, but it's what you do in this world.

Michael: I try and avoid that topic because I'm not very articulate about it, but I founded a company called Box of Crayons. Box of Crayons is a learning and development company, and our mission is to help organisations be less advice-driven and more curiosity-led. And the thing we're best known for is helping people be more coach-like, ask better questions as that kind of driver for coaching.

Josh: Is that consultancy?

Michael: So I wouldn't call it consultancy. I've been a consultant and a consultant, you kind of show up and you're like, look, I'm X hundred dollars a day and I'm going to come in and I'm going to fix something for you. And you try to wrestle with the client around what the problem is and you help come up with solutions and you execute. Learning and development is like, we need our people to Elevate, change, be different, learn something new. And that's what we— that's what Box of Crayons sells. Yeah. Now, 4 months ago, I gave up being CEO of Box of Crayons to a colleague. And so I'm now man without portfolio. So I'm like, I'm trying to figure out what I do for a crust now. Um, but I'm a writer, so I've got a new book coming out, uh, February 29th. Um, I speak, so people pay me to come and strut around on a stage and teach and share. But mostly I don't do it for a crust. I do it for the impact I'm going to have in this life now.

Tommy: Well, definitely shows that you love what you do. I think I had a quite a one-dimensional view of coaching before your workshop because I did a— I attempted to do a degree at the Coaching Institute, which is very much about how can we help people with their problems. And it's— hopefully you understand what I mean.

Michael: You're—

Tommy: the way you put a spin on the coaching stuff is utilising coaching within a greater span than just kind of like mindset coaching. It could be within a business as an HR leader.

Josh: Yeah.

Michael: And so one of my heroes in this space of how organisations work is a guy called Peter Block. I love his work. He's just— he's now like 75. He's grumpy. He's got edgy, spiky, but I love his thinking.

Tommy: Actually comes when you turn 75.

Michael: Yeah, I'm almost there. And He wrote a blurb for the first book I ever wrote, which was a big highlight for me. It's like, you know, Beethoven going, nice piece of music. I'm like, Peter Block likes my book. And he said in this book, he said, look, coaching isn't a profession. It's a way of being with each other. And that's a big part of what I'm about because the word coaching comes with a lot of baggage for a lot of people. They're like, ah, coaches. Yeah, I've met them. They're all, you know, life coaches or there's executive coaches and they've all got their agendas and their ways of doing things. And they all have their place. I mean, there's a place for all of that. For me, I'm like, how do I help everybody be more coach-like? And that's a shift from being a kind of a label and a profession. And it's a way of showing up in the world. And this is the definition we have for being more coach-like. Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? Because my take on it, and this is part of what you guys experience in the workshop, is you're advice-giving maniacs, right? You get into a conversation, you're like— I think I know what I need to tell you. I don't know. I don't know who you're involved. I don't know what's going on. I don't know the context. I don't know the situation.

Tommy: Yeah.

Michael: And I've got an opinion and we're like, you know what? Advice. There's nothing wrong with advice per se. What's wrong is when you have just a default way of working or default way of kind of responding, which is my job is to always have the answer. And that's what I'm looking to shift within the consultancy space.

Mason: Yeah.

Josh: Is there an extra level of need or feeling that people need to give advice based on that's what they're charging for?

Michael: Oh, totally. So you get into that cycle where I'm like, I hire a consultant because I can't come up with the answers myself and I'm outsourcing that hard work. The consultant goes, look, my only job here is to have an answer. So, and so you're colluding in this process where, and again, there's a place and a time where advice is exactly the right thing to do. And sometimes as a consultant, your job is to come back with the answer. But if you want me to nerd out here, another writer, Ed Schein, another huge figure, kind of him and Peter Block are the colossi that stride above the ocean here. And Ed Schein wrote a book called Process Consulting. It's a little bit academic because he's a former professor from MIT in the States. And he says, look, there are 3 types of consulting relationships. There is the— what does he call it? The, uh, it's kind of the straight transactional piece, which is like, I come to you and I want an answer and your job is to give me an answer. And there's a really nice way that that's a crisp, clean, fast relationship. But the problem is I'm like, I'm relying on you to have an answer and you're going, look, yeah, they say in advertising, the problem with advertising, you go to an advertising agency and go, here's my challenge. They go, I think I know what your answer is. You need some advertising, right? If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And in that relationship, There's often somebody who's a hammer going, "I think you should use a nail," or, "I think I should bang the nail in." That's one relationship. The second type of relationship, the doctor-patient relationship. So, you know what that's like. You come to the doctor and you go, "Well, here are my symptoms," and the doctor goes, "Okay, that's all right. Okay, I suggest this." But that's a complicated and flawed relationship as well because you come to the doctor and you're like, "Well, I'm going to tell you some of my symptoms, but not all of the symptoms because honestly this rash is a little awkward. I don't want to mention that." I've kind of done a little research myself on Dr. Google, so I've kind of made up what I think the answer already is. And the doctor doesn't have enough time, and they're like, okay, we'll just try and get them out the door and have this medication. And then they give you the medication, and then you don't use the medication because you go, oh, I took the pills for 3 days and my symptoms kind of went away, so I won't take the rest of the pills. So that's a flawed model as well. And the third type of consulting that Ed Shein talks about is process consulting. Not a great name. But it's really where you lead with curiosity. You lead with the thought that, look, my experience and my wisdom and my knowledge will help ask better questions and potentially share a better answer down the path. But I'm trying to keep ownership of the problem with you so that you are more likely to have insight into what the problem is, generate your own answer, and then own and act on your own answer. So there's different approaches to consulting as well.

Josh: Mm-hmm. And so if someone is that consultant, the idea of asking more questions?

Michael: Just ask more questions. I mean, really, I mean, this is my other tattoo that's still kind of healing. So just ask more questions because we are, you know, in this new book, I talk about the Advice Monster. And, you know, as soon as somebody starts talking, the Advice Monster comes up out of the dark and goes, "Oh, I'm going to add some value to this conversation right away. Yes, I am. Here comes the value." And I'm like, look, Yes to advice, but what if you just waited 2 more minutes, just asked a few more questions before you gave your advice? You're going to find that you need to give it less than you think, that when you do give it, it's better, smarter, more specific, that they probably come up with a bunch of the answers themselves, which actually makes them think you're smarter because they figured it out themselves. There's all sorts of benefits to staying curious a little bit longer.

Tommy: Is there a fine line between asking the questions and the questions are all geared to answering the answers that you have, which I think is my—

Josh: I think Tommy's always picking up on that.

Tommy: It's like, I pick up on it very easily.

Josh: I don't say, oh, should you? What about this?

Michael: Well, that's actually not technically a question. That's advice with a question mark attached to the end.

Josh: Could you have asked them that?

Michael: There's nothing more annoying that you go, 'Let me ask the question again a little slower and a little louder, and hopefully you'll get the answers I need you to get here.' Like, honestly, at that point you're like, 'Just give them the answer,' because you're just annoying everybody. Everyone is now annoyed by this conversation. So these kind of fake questions, you know, or rhetorical questions—

Josh: what's an example of one?

Michael: A fake question: 'Have you thought of?' 'Did you try?' 'Have you considered?' 'What about the—' They're all, they're all just kind of, 'I'm trying to solve this under the pretence I'm asking you a question.' let's, let's drop the pretense. It's advice. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: I think that's fair because I think that that's the hard bit.

Tommy: And so flip it on its head. What is the approach and how do you, how do you squash that down even if you think you're not being an advice monster at that point?

Michael: Yeah. So there's a couple of levels to this. The first is to go, look, what are some of the good questions that you can ask that you can rely on that can be effective? So you both took the workshop and it was months ago, like maybe 3 months ago. So I don't expect you to remember anything from the workshop other than it was a good time. But is there one or two questions that stick with you from that workshop? What else? And what else?

Tommy: What's the biggest challenge for you?

Michael: Perfect. So two great questions. Um, and what else? So I talk about that as the best coaching question in the world because you can almost always answer it. And here's why it's so effective. Whatever their answer is to the first question, It's not their only answer and it's almost never their best answer. So you go, when they give you an answer, you go, great, what else could you do? Yeah, what else is there? Yeah, anything else here? And they're like, oh, well, actually there is. And you're like, perfect, you're working it. I love that. And what's the real challenge here for you? This is what I call in the first book, The Coaching Habit, I call this the focus question because so much of our lives we're busy trying to solve the wrong problems because we think the first thing that gets mentioned is the real thing, and it almost never is. So that discipline to go, okay, I get what's going on, what's the real challenge here for you, is a way of quickly deepening the conversation so that you actually start actually solving the real problem. So when you mention something and you go, well, have you thought of— okay, now you're like, okay, well, now you're annoying, right? Because now you're giving me advice and pretending to coach me. So instead you go, oh, here. So what do you think the real challenge is here for you? And now you're like, oh, yeah, you get to work less hard. Yeah.

Josh: So you're like, I think that part of it is like Tommy will sometimes say, well, I've just given you what I think the answer is. I think that obviously there's something else because you're asking again. Yeah. So how do you, how do you deal with that? Which is like when people feel like the first or second thought is their final thought.

Michael: So I always go, what's the lazy way of doing this? So I stopped trying to be tricky. It's like, okay, we're in a mind game now and I'm going to try and play mental chess with you to figure this out. So I would just go, if you feel Tommy's going, okay, he's going to be annoyed with me asking that question because he's already told me what he thinks the real challenge is. Go, all right, this may be a little annoying, but I just, because I'm curious and I just want to make sure we've got the real challenge here. What do you think the real challenge is here for you? So I just address it. You know, he's like, yeah, that is annoying, but actually that's a good question. What is the real challenge?

Tommy: And you know, the funny thing on being on the opposite side to that, getting asked that and feeling someone prodding you like that, there's a level of committing to this weird— it's almost a game. Like, I know, like I get there with the second thing. I enter into this. I can't see what you're doing. What about this? And it's like almost this ad-lib.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah, well, it becomes like a bit meta. Yeah. Because it— because we— because we both did the workshop. Yeah. We have this framework. And so, you know what's happening. Yeah. And sometimes— and so sometimes it actually means that, like I've said, like we are using this for— like, this is the framework. Like, let's be clear on it. So it's not like I'm just asking these— if you think about, I'm just asking the what else. That's— and so there's no judgement if we're just using the framework. There isn't really any judgment.

Michael: Yeah. It's like, just cheque out, you know, could I just— could we use that coaching framework? Would it be useful if we just ask some questions around this? Yeah. You know what? I'm just going to ask you some of these good coaching questions. It may not work, but if it does, bonus. Yeah. So you just take the drama out of it. And that the fact that we're all pretending that this is a natural conversation where you both know it's not a natural conversation because you both know exactly what's going on. Which makes it a more effective conversation. I mean, imagine how people who work with me feel. Every morning I'm like, "Okay, Chloe, fantastic. Here's our regular meeting around programme development and design. So Chloe, what's on your mind?" You know, so the first time I'm asking that, she's like, "You are a genius manager." Then she discovers that it's the question in the book that I say start every conversation with. So the next 2 weeks, she's like rolling her eyes every time I talk. She's like, "Ah, you're going to say what's on your mind." And I'm like, you're right, I am. What is on your mind? Yes, well, actually, now you mention that. And now we're just like, it's an understood pattern around that. And in fact, we'll normally start a call and she goes, hey, let me tell you what's on my mind. And I'm like, perfect, because I have helped her be a good coachee.

Josh: That's why you're redundant now from CEO, because you don't have any.

Michael: And who doesn't want to be redundant? No, I am serious, because you're like, The best thing you can do is become redundant about part of your work because then you go, "So what's my next big challenge?" Yeah. It's very true. I mean, literally, 2 months ago, maybe 3 months ago now, I was in Las Vegas and working with Microsoft. And they've had thousands of people go through an online version of our program, including the head of sales, right? So he reports to such and another who's this, you know, legend and who's redoing the whole culture at Microsoft from a know-it-all culture to a learn-it-all culture. And I get asked to come out on stage. I mean, I knew this was happening, but I'm pulled out on stage and I'm going to coach him in front of 4,000 people. So it's live coaching. It's fantastic.

Josh: I loved your live because you live coached me. Yeah. And it was Tommy said, ah, I saw you were grabbing your neck and you went a bit red. Like, fucking, he loved it.

Michael: You know the tics of your business partner. So, the person I'm coaching, he's old school. He's been at Microsoft for 20 years. So, he's been part of the old culture under Steve Ballmer, which was not a particularly healthy or helpful culture. And we sit down and there's a tiny bit of banter. He's French. So, I try not to put on a bad French accent because now I'm mocking. So, I don't do that. But I literally go, so he goes, "You're probably going to ask me what's on your mind." And I'm like, you're absolutely right. So JP, what is on your mind? He's like, ahaha. Well, actually, so people know that it's, it's, it's not only okay that people know what's happening, it's fantastic because you're like, there's a, there's a, an unspoken agreement that we know what we're doing here, which makes it for a more effective conversation.

Tommy: And so working with someone in a sales capacity. Yeah. And using a framework like this, is it advantageous? Is it a softer approach to a sell? How do you utilise this best in a sales conversation? Yeah, so not just trying to find out what is on Michael's mind and the challenges you're facing internally in the business, but outwardly.

Michael: Well, let me ask you this. From what you know about sales, Where do most sales conversations go wrong?

Tommy: I would think potentially not understanding the real need of the person. So it's— I put my need, we need to make cash. We can do this for you. What are you up for it?

Michael: You're like, I've got a widget. Whatever you say your problem is, I'm going to start selling you a widget. In fact, I'm probably not even care what your problem is. I'm just because I've got to shift a whole bunch of widgets. Widgets. I've got a real visual of what— Yeah, exactly. So remember Max had the widgets?

Josh: I feel like the They've discontinued that. But remember the dashboard you'd go in, they had widgets and the weather anyway. So widgety grubs.

Michael: Yeah. So, so people don't know what the real problem is that you're trying to help them solve. So what's the real challenge here for you is like, let me figure out what your real challenge is because you're either going to get to a point where you go, oh, look, mate, if that is your real challenge, I've got exactly the right widget for you. And they're like, I'm excited to see this widget because you've helped me really appreciate where my struggle is. I hadn't even realised it, but now I see it. I see the problem. And I think you might— I'm open to your solution.

Josh: Is it hard though when they know that you only have one widget to sell and the fact that at the end of the conversation you've managed to solve their issue with the widget?

Michael: Well, you may not because you may get to a point where you're like, You know what? It sounds like this is your challenge. And honestly, the widget I've got is not the widget you're looking for. So now you're playing a different game. Now you're going, do I try and sell them the widget even though we all know that it's not the thing that's actually helpful? Or do I go, look, I'm being a trusted advisor to you because I'm not going to sell you the thing you don't need. But when you do need it, you'll be the person I come to because we've built a relationship of trust around this. So that all comes down to how do you sell? What's your approach to selling? What's your ethics around selling? I think if you've got a widget that doesn't solve the problem that they actually need, you're either going to not sell it to them because it doesn't solve it, or you are going to sell it to them, in which case they get really annoyed because they've just spent X thousand dollars on a useless thing that doesn't actually help them. Yeah. So either way, you get to choose to make a short-term sale now and break the relationship, or have a better, more relationship-based conversation where it might turn into a sale or it might turn into a relationship, which the sale happens later on.

Josh: The live coaching that you were talking about, I think it was like an aha moment for me experiencing it. Would you do live coaching with Harry, our work experience guy, to test, just to show people that method? Yeah. Harry, are you okay to be coached?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy. Are you sure, Harry? I don't know. You agree to this beforehand? But I'm okay with it. Dude, it's like, you're like, here's what I would do. I would read the small print on the work experience contract. Okay, good.

Josh: He's overrated. So if you were coaching Harry, yeah, what does that look like?

Michael: So Harry, let's just set this up so you don't go, what the hell have I just said yes to? So it's just— this is just a conversation, and it's best if you've got a thing where you're like, here's something I would like to be better at, a problem I'd like to solve, you know, based on this conversation. It's like, how can I get out of this work experience gig as fast as possible based on what I'm just seeing? Here, but it could be something else entirely. And I'm going to ask questions. You've already heard like 3 or 4 of the questions I'm probably going to ask you. You don't have to answer any of them. So you get to kind of protect your own privacy and vulnerability. It's like, be as vulnerable as you want. Be as unvulnerable as you want. The choice is yours entirely. And sometimes coaching works, sometimes it doesn't work as well. So if it doesn't work, it's just the wrong, the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's not about me. It's not about you. Mm-hmm. He's still up for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect.

Tommy: I feel like he's Mike Whitney.

Josh: Who Dares Wins. Do you agree? Are you going to take the exam? Who was his? Tanya Zayedah. Yeah, I'm Tanya Zayedah. All right. Do you remember Who Dares Wins? No. It was a good show. He would go into like shopping centres and he would say, now for $50, would you skull this litre of milk? Great Aussie show. Anyway, sorry to interrupt.

Michael: There'll be no milk sculling unless that's where it ends up. So mate, Harry, thanks for doing this. The opening question is like, what's on your mind? So when you think about something that's useful and real for us to talk about, what comes up?

Mason: At the moment, and I've been thinking about it a lot recently, is rebranding my website and my portfolio. Nice. Just because it's getting a bit dated. So that's really what I want to focus on lately. Something that showcases who I am.

Michael: Yeah, that's fantastic. Big thing. Um, when you think about that challenge, the rebranding of the website and the portfolio, what's the real challenge here for you?

Mason: Um, I think finding a design and including the right information, which I want to. Yeah, sure.

Michael: So two things there, the design and the right information. What else is a challenge here for you?

Mason: I think finding the time and the right tools in order to do it.

Michael: So time and tools, so we're up to four. This is great. What else? What else is a challenge in all of this for you?

Mason: Um, that's a good question. I'm just having the, um, the resources and the, um, how, how once I've created it, how do I share it? Nice.

Michael: So the, the sharing piece. So 5, all of those are real issues, but if you can only pick one of them to look at now, um, which, where would you go? Which one feels out of all of those the real challenge for you?

Mason: I'll go how do I share it, how do I put myself out there. Fantastic.

Michael: And Let me just hit the pause button for a minute. Yeah. Just so we can talk about immediately what's happened there, which is when I go, what's the real challenge? You're like, it's the branding and it's this. And I'm like, cool. Now I've been building websites and doing branding for 30 years. So do you think I have a little subject matter expertise on that? Of course I do. So there's part of me going, oh, look, mate, let me hook you up with my friend, blah, blah. And then have you seen the new release of the— what's that? But actually, when we got down to that next layer down, which is so out of all of those, what's the real challenge? It was actually the fifth, the final one that you went to going, this is the big thing. This is the real challenge here for me. If I'd been busy solving the first challenge, I'd be offering up, um, Squarespace. Yeah, I'd be offering up probably not a very good solution to solve the wrong problem. Right. And that is a classic about what normally happens because people are just here. They don't ask, and what else? They just hit the first problem and they're like, mate, I can help you. I know some stuff. Squarespace. It's amazing. Yeah. So let's— so thank you. I'll unpress the pause button. This is brilliant. You're doing great. Excuse me. So how to share, you know, how do you get people to find you, know you, get kind of viral? When you think about that, what's the challenge here for you?

Mason: Uh, it's promoting myself and putting myself out there and being confident enough. Nice. To share what I do and what I enjoy. Yeah, sure. I think it's the big thing.

Michael: So, uh, putting yourself out there, the confidence piece around there. What else is hard around this for you?

Mason: Um, I'm not sure.

Michael: Um, yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, that's fine. Uh, because I'm going to just be curious. I'm going to double-click on one of— I mean, it's the, um, putting the confidence to put yourself out there. And go with me if you want. This may go a little, a little personal. You may not want to get there, but when you think about that, what's the challenge there for you, having that confidence?

Mason: Oh, like knowing who to go to and who I want to discuss, like who I want to target, who my target market is, like who my target market is, if that makes sense. Yeah, nice.

Michael: So let me put— hit a pause button again. And Harry, let me just cheque in with you. What's already been useful about this quick conversation? Because it's what, been like a couple of minutes, 2 or 3 minutes maybe?

Mason: I'm just saying, just putting out there what I'm having trouble with and acknowledging what I'm having trouble with. Yeah, yeah, I like it.

Michael: So in my head, I'm kind of talking to you and kind of talking to the audience. When you go down to that level of confidence, Here's what I had in my head as a hypothesis, which is it just takes a level of confidence to go, "Look, I'm going to be out there. I'm going to produce content. I'm going to be in front of a camera. I'm going to be doing all of that stuff." So, there may be something kind of a deeper level around how do I just show up with that kind of chutzpah to be in front of the camera and to be putting it out there. And I thought we might be going down there. That could have been a thing. There might also be that piece around just which is where you went, which is like, Where's my target market? You know, who am I talking to? Who's my ideal person, my ideal audience? How do I connect and figure that out? Because we all know that if we're trying to make a splash in this world, trying to appeal to everybody is a loser's game. That just doesn't work at all. You got to pick your audience and know exactly who you're trying to connect with. Yeah. So we could go a little deeper around that if you wanted to, or you could say, stop, Michael, this is just fine. I don't know where this is going, but it's going off the rails fast. So Harry, where do you want to go with this?

Mason: I'm not sure if you've got time to go deeper. I'm happy to.

Michael: So I've got two things on the table. One is kind of an actual confidence thing. One is about a target market thing. Which one of those is the most useful one to look at? Confidence. Got it. So when you think about how you want to show up and the confidence that you want to have, yeah, what do you want?

Mason: I just want to believe in myself and know what I'm doing is the right thing to do. Yeah. And being confident that I am— oh, I don't know how to put it— that I can do what I— you know what I mean? Yeah. You're picking up what I'm putting out, like.

Tommy: Yeah, I think so.

Michael: And just to kind of do the meta-commentary around it, honestly, in some ways, even if I didn't get what you're talking about, it kind of wouldn't matter so much. I mean, I think I got a sense of it, but it's like the power is, do you get what you're saying? Do you feel the truth of the insight? Which is like— say it to me again. I mean, the way you put it was really nice. Say what again? Sorry. Just a restatement of how you articulated the challenge for you.

Mason: So I want to find confidence in knowing that what what I do, I can do. Yeah. And that knowing if I promote myself, um, well enough, I would be able to find somebody. Yeah. Or I'll be in a better position than I would be if I didn't promote myself, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it does.

Michael: Which is like having the confidence to go, I know what I'm doing, I know what I'm trying to talk to, let me see how it unfolds. That feels to me like it's, it's the real challenge, or it's close to it. Does it feel like it's the real challenge for you? Correct. So would it be useful at all if we just had some ideas around how do you find that confidence? How do you figure that out? Yeah. Cool. So my job is to be lazy as a coach. I'm going to get you to work with some of the ideas because I know you've thought about this already. You've already got some ideas. So what ideas do you already have about how do you figure out, tap into, practice, express your confidence? Whichever kind of thing works best for you.

Mason: To express my confidence and express who I am. I like to be creative and communicate as many ideas that I'm passionate about as I can, whether whatever medium that's through. Good.

Michael: So being creative, communicating a bunch of ideas. What else could you do that would help build and establish that confidence?

Mason: Networking with people and getting to know other people and sharing, like sharing common ideas with them. Yeah, brilliant.

Michael: This is great. You're in a great role. What else would you do?

Mason: Yeah, just put more into that networking and contacting people.

Michael: I feel that's really landing for you, which is like the get out there. Knowing these guys is a great start because they're well connected, and being here is a great start. If there's one other thing that you could do that you go, this would help strengthen my level of confidence, what would it be?

Mason: I think just keep doing it. Yeah. And practising what I'm, what I'm doing currently.

Michael: Yep. And if I was going to add one idea, it would probably have been that last one, which is Honestly, the way you build confidence is you do stuff. You just ship. You know, Seth Godin is a great marketer. He's all about ship it. It's 80% good enough. Ship it. You know, Gary Vaynerchuk, you probably know of. He's all about, look, put out the crappy content, put out the good content, put out the crappy content, because you only get smart about what works, what doesn't work from the feedback that you get out there. And if you spend your whole time trying to figure it out in your head going, is it perfect yet? You, you get stuck around that.

Mason: That's the message I'm sort of getting from Crushing It!, Gary's book. Yeah, it's just, just do it, get it, and then learn from what you've done. Yeah. And how to improve that. Yeah.

Michael: And the thing for me that I'd, I'd add, if I, if, if I can, is just to say whether people like it or don't like it isn't actually a reflection on your self-worth. Like in this new book, I, I, at the start of it, I collected a bunch of reviews from Amazon for the, the Coaching Habit book And there's a bunch of ones going, "It's the best book I ever read." And then there's one from a woman whose name I can't remember, but I'm gonna have to remember it. It's like 1 star, literally says, "This is the worst book ever written." I'm like, "Is it?" The worst book ever written? I mean, I get it's like, "This is a terrible book," but "This is the worst book ever written?" Awesome! How good is that as a piece of feedback? And so for me, I'm like, there's a way that the praise and the feedback you get, you're like, it's not about me. It's just a reaction to the stuff that's going out there. It's as much about them and their headspace and what they like and don't like as it is about me. So I'll take what's useful. I'll forget the rest. I won't take it personally. So I think that insight, which is around, look, network, get stuff out there, don't take it too personally, is a great process for potentially building confidence. Yeah. So here's what I'd then ask you, which is, so you got an insight. Mm-hmm. It's interesting how that insight, and this is just to the folks listening, it kind of shifted from a, how do I get my website rocking to how do I get the confidence to show up? So it moves from a technical external problem to an internal self problem.

Mason: You find what's more important for yourself.

Michael: Exactly. You got it. So I'm curious to know what you want to commit to doing by when. So what does the action from the insight look like?

Mason: I think creating as much as I can. Perfect. And from that, practising what I'm currently doing.

Michael: So I'd push you to be a little more specific. So when you say creating as much as you can, because I've got— as much as you can, I reckon you could create 400 pieces of content a day if you just— that's all you did. And that may be excessive. So what do you want to commit to, to me? On air, on episode 535. What's your commitment going to be? Make it one that you can hit. So play it safer rather than bolder.

Mason: I want to build my Instagram account because I've got a theme happening there, but I'm just not pursuing it. And I think that Instagram is a good medium at the moment that you can get discovered. You can express who you are.

Michael: When you're as good looking as you, it's like perfect. Damn right. Some topless selfies. You're already naked, so come on, come on. So Instagram is your focus. How many pieces of content do you want to commit to Instagram on a daily basis? Is it one? Is it half? Is it two per week? Is it two per day?

Mason: I think a piece of content a week might work, whether that's in IGTV or stories-based content. And then from that point, as I'm getting comfortable with that, building on from that.

Michael: So you're welcome to say yes, no, or maybe to this. Yeah. But what if I doubled that and said, what about 2 pieces of content per week? Maybe. Okay. So sit with it and then you and I will connect afterwards and you'll come up with a final commitment around that. And if you want to, you can use me as a kind of checking buddy or use these guys as checking buddies, whatever will work for you. Fabulous. Thank you.

Tommy: And Harry, feel free to use this as a snippet. Yeah, exactly.

Michael: You definitely really need to do one. Honestly, you could turn this into like about 6 weeks' work, right? So let me cheque in with you. Yeah. What was useful or valuable from this coaching?

Mason: It was very much addressing what I feel like I need to do, like addressing my flaw— not flaws, but like where I can improve, if that makes sense.

Michael: Sure. Yeah, perfect. And to the folks— and thank you, that was great and really helpful for people to listen and see that. For the folks who are watching and hearing this, If you were not getting swept away by Harry's story, but kind of watching what I was doing as a coach, in the end, I asked what, 4 different questions, maybe 5. All of them are from The Coaching Habit book. I asked what's on their mind. I asked what's the real challenge here for you? I asked, and what else? I asked, what do you want? And I asked, what was most useful or most valuable here for you now? 5 questions, which I asked most of them more than once. And in 10 minutes, we had a conversation that went through an arc.

Josh: Well, one of the biggest assets that we got from the workshop were these 3 cards. What are those 3 different sections of questions that it sort of falls into?

Michael: So the 3 questions, and Harry led us beautifully through them. The first is around getting clear on the challenge. So that's what's the real challenge here for you? And you saw how that shifted. Quite quickly. Then there was a creating possibilities piece, which is about let's have some ideas. And you saw me do my lazy brainstorming piece, which is like, I've got some ideas, but what ideas do you have? And what else do you have? What else do you have? And you're like, you had all the ideas. I'm like, amazing. And then I just added one possible thought at the end. And then we went into sparking action, which is like, okay, you got the insight. But let's commit to an action so that actually there's a chance that you won't just go, that was amazing, and then forget about it. But we're like, we've got a deal around checking in on that. So we went through the 3 key coaching moments there. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I think the, um, the sparking action stuff is super powerful that I think that a lot of, a lot of businesses, or even business, like especially businesses that I've been into or been in, struggle with, which is that you have meetings, you do all that sort of thing, you even like write it down. Yeah. But you don't identify like, oh, what is the actual action? What is the specific thing? How do we— what is, what is successful? Look like? How do we know what that is? Exactly.

Michael: And you're right, so many meetings kind of end in a flurry of almost commitment. We kind of vaguely know what we think is going to happen. And what you could see me doing there is just crisping it up a little bit, going specifically, what are you going to do? By when? Okay, so it's either 1 or 2 pieces of content per week on Instagram. So Harry will be able to go, did it or didn't do it? Yeah.

Josh: Yes or no? Do you find that there's any questions that derail people that aren't actually great questions and lead to problems? You know, any question can fail.

Michael: And what happens when a question fails is the person looks at you blankly and goes, what? I don't know. Or the conversation goes off path and you can feel it getting a bit distracted. What's great about a conversation is you're like, nobody dies. You just rescue it. You go, oh, that was not a great question. "Let me ask you another one. What's the real challenge here for you?" And they're like, "Oh, oh, well, now you put it like that." Boom, and they're back into the conversation. So part of— maybe this is about just getting more masterful about being more coach-like— is to hold it lightly. A, even though it's a conversation that is serious because it's about somebody's life, you don't have to be serious as you do it. Secondly, you go, "Look, the worst that happens is you ask a question that doesn't work. Yeah. You know, it's like, if that's, if that's the worst thing that happens during your day, it's an awesome day.

Josh: On the, uh, the social media stuff, you don't have an Instagram account? I do.

Michael: Oh, you do? Yeah, I have, uh, I'm just starting one. It's called, um, The Advice Trap.

Josh: The name of it is going to go either way. I thought you were going to do the classic troll of, are you— and then you do the finger.

Michael: Yeah, I do. It's called Go Get Fucked. Advice Trap. I tried to find that and it's already taken. So yeah, I am— The Advice Trap is the Instagram account.

Josh: Yeah. And how do you view—

Tommy: because I was just giving advice. Got ya.

Josh: Just quite, um, there's like— I'm, I'm sort of, uh, toing and froing between two ideas, which is getting myself out there, but also sort of Cal Newport's digital minimalism and all that sort of realm. How do you find it being, uh, someone who's in the public eye and that writes books and things like that, to balance being out there and communicating and the deep work?

Michael: Yeah, I, I think like everybody, I find it hard, you know. Like, I, I have, I have periods where I get into a routine of deep work where I will protect— mostly I protect my mornings. I'm an early morning person, so I'm up at Sometimes 4, sometimes 5. Um, the 4 AM Club.

Tommy: Wow. Is there a habit that you're like, you're getting up to write?

Michael: Is that— yeah, I mean, to write the latest book, I would just go, look, my job is to get up at 4 or 5 and then write for at least a couple of hours and see if I could get, get through the various iterations of somewhat crappy draughts that you have to get through to write a good book.. And I had a— so The Coaching Habit came out February 29th, 2016, and I was like, I really want this other book to come out February 29th, 2020. So exactly 4 years, but on the first birthday of The Coaching Habit, because, you know, in my genius way, because it got published 29th of February, it's 4 years till the next birthday. I see.

Josh: Did you get that, TJ? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think I have to think about it. Yeah, Harry loves it.

Michael: So I was like, I really want to get it out on February 29th. And so the people that I work with, a company in Vancouver called Page Two, who are our kind of backstage publishers, they're like, okay, well, here's, here's the work back schedule. And I'm like, good, I've got to get a really good manuscript done by October.

Josh: And because you're, um, The Coaching Habit, you've sold 600,000 copies, uh, close to 700,000.

Michael: Yeah, a lot of books. Yeah. It's an amazing amount of books and I self-published it, so it's even sweeter.

Josh: That's what I was curious about because you were talking, you had that sort of backstage publishing or whatever. Can you explain that industry? Who's it for? And I guess there is that school of thought that self-publishing is this, is vanity publishing or it's this style that's not actually meant to get out at the scale that you've done it.

Michael: So, um, the starting point is to say almost every book fails. You know, the statistic I heard was 93% of books sell less than 1,000 copies. And that was— that's, that's an old statistic. I think it's lower than, you know, it's a higher percentage now because there are so many books out there, right? It's just a barrier to entry.

Josh: Kindle, get it up there.

Michael: It is nothing.

Tommy: What's the stat of writing the worst book ever written?

Josh: I own that. Step aside, people, that's mine.

Michael: So, you know, I get asked all the time, "Hey, should I write a book?" And I'm like, "Probably not," because writing a book takes forever. It's hard. You write your first draught and you're like, "That's a terrible first draft." And then you write the second draught and you're like, "It's even worse than the first draft." And then you write the third draught and you're like, "I'm going to kill myself because I've got this kind of idea and I can't get it on paper." And then by the time it turns around, you're on your fifth draft, by which time the book is a little bit better, but you hate yourself and you hate yourself for committing to doing and it just takes a long time to write a good book because you've got to work it and work it and work it. You've got to get beyond the obvious, the clichés. You've got to find your own voice. You've got to find your own ideas. And then you put it out in the world and it's odds are nobody's going to read it and it costs you money or it's costing somebody money to put it out there. So there are other— what I think is really useful is to go create IP, create content, do a podcast, do an Instagram account, you know, run a— do put your stuff out in the world in other ways. Because, you know, this is a commitment. Awesome camera, great mics, awesome lighting, uh, two actors to replace the actual guys who are pretty ugly. But, um, uh, you know, so there's a real—

Mason: we put Tommy and Josh in a cage at the back.

Michael: There's a real commitment to making this work, but anybody can get a camera and start going, "I can do some filming." So question number 1, do you want to write a book? The answer is maybe, but don't think— don't go to it as your default. This is the best way to get work and the work. Then you go publishing or self-publishing. Publishing is a really mostly broken model from the 18th century. You know, and the way most publishers do it these days is they're like, they're looking for somebody who has a social following. So they've got an audience. They don't really pay them much of an advance, probably less than $1,500, definitely less than $10,000. Yeah. The advance.

Josh: Yeah. Because, because I remember, well, because I remember hearing, I think maybe Tim Ferriss talked about take a low advance because then you make the money back for the publisher quicker. So then it's a perceived success and then you get another deal. But most of them,—

Michael: I would say a majority of books don't make their money back for publishers, or at least they do if they're like a $1,500 advance because you don't have to sell that many. So what they're doing is they're like, they're literally just going, we're going to put you through our mill and pump stuff out into the world and hope something catches fire. Because if 1 or 2 catch fire out of 100, they make enough money to keep the machine going. The odds are your book won't be one of those 1 or 2 that catches fire.

Tommy: And so what was your conversation with yourself? At that book at the time you were thinking about writing the book?

Michael: So I wrote a book 10 years ago or thereabouts called Do More Great Work, which was originally self-published but got picked up by a New York publisher called Workman. And they published it and it was pretty exciting and it's done all right. It sold about 100,000 copies over 10 years, which is excellent. I mean, it's a really solid performance. I spent 3 years pitching The Coaching Habit to Workman. And they just didn't like it. They didn't get it. They're like, oh, we, we like it, but we don't love it.

Tommy: I was like, ah, what's the real problem here? Yeah, exactly.

Michael: So it finally got to a point where I was like, okay, this is killing me, because I'd literally written 5 versions of this book to try and find a way to make them like the book, and I just couldn't get it. I was like, what was—

Josh: what were you shifting each time?

Michael: Out of those 5 versions, all sorts of things. I mean, I tried to— no, no, no, it's like literally redesigning and restructuring the whole thing. This is the agony of book writing, which is like you write some sucky versions of your book before you write a good version. And it finally got to a point with the workman people, I just went, look, I've got a vision for what this book is. This is it. Do you want to publish this or not? And they're like, no, we don't.

Josh: Did you think that they were playing hardball? Were you thinking that they were going to go with it?

Michael: I just got to a point where I'm like, I don't mind. I don't mind how this ends up because I've got two alternate— I've got two routes of action. Either they do it or I do it because I know this is a good book. I've got it now. I know what this book is going to be.

Josh: And what was your perception of self-publishing? Obviously, you had the one that was picked up by Workman. Yeah. What's the mental game?

Michael: Well, when you get into self-publishing and for me, I set a very clear intention, which was if I'm going to self-publish this, I have to publish it as— self-publish it as a professional, not as an amateur, because it's really easy to do as an amateur. You like— if you can, if you can put something into a PDF, you can publish it as an amateur. Put it into a PDF, upload it to Amazon's publishing thing, and boom, you've got a book.

Josh: Well, our last intern, 3D Dill, wrote his memoir and sells it on Amazon. Like, amazing.

Michael: Yeah. So it's easy to do that, and there is a place for that. It wasn't my place. I was like, I need this book to be professional because it's part of, connected to my training company, Box of Crayons. It needs to show up in the world. I've got visions of it being in airports, and I don't want it to be picked up at an airport and somebody go, uh, self-published book, real book, I'll take the real book. I needed it to be indistinguishable from a, from a high-quality book. So, um, I hired an editor, I hired a designer. The designer introduced me to this company, Page Two, They're like a white label publishing company. So, they'll sort out distribution, ISBN numbers, how to get stuff up on Amazon, all the bits and pieces stuff that you can figure out for yourself, but it takes time and making sure that everything had a quality to it and a feel to it. So, I've literally had people who run publishing companies not know that the book was self-published because of the look and the feel of it, which is Fantastic. Now, the deal with working with somebody like a Page Two is it's money up front. So you need to have a degree of liquidity to go, look, I put cash out up front. But, you know, the numbers, when your royalty for a published book, if you even get it published, because sometimes you need an agent and this blah, blah, blah, is about 10%. With a self-published book, if you're doing it entirely by yourself, it's, you know, about 70% after you take out all the expenses. If you're going through a company like Page Two, it's about 30%. So I weighed up, I go, look, it's roughly 3 times the royalties. I get to control everything about it, the look, the feel, decisions around distribution, all of that sort of stuff. It happens faster. I get to control 100% my own IP so I can cut it, reuse it, play around with it. It— I like the control that self-publishing gives me, but I'm also, uh, I'm good at it. I write good books. I've got a business model that supports it. So I know that the books, like, I can point to literally millions of dollars of training that we've sold from people who've picked up the book and then called us up and gone, I like your book.

Tommy: Was there a tipping point within the 700,000 you've sold? Is there a point where you see it gained traction? Like, you see online, it's very tangible. You see where the YouTube video started getting a bit momentum, then the YouTube channel started gaining followers. How do you see that as someone who's written a book in it and there's some success there?

Michael: Yeah, I'm not sure I know enough to know how the patterns of that work. Um, what I did with The Coaching Habit is I said, look, I'm going to launch it. I'm not going to get too hung up on the launch window, which is for most people about 2 weeks. And they're like, I'm just trying to shift as many units as I can in that first couple of weeks because that, that would just be my, um, shoes getting delivered.

Josh: Harry, if you can sign for that, please. Just the courier, don't mind that. That's perfect.

Michael: I was wondering why you were barefoot. Now I understand. What sort of shoes do you wear?

Josh: Oh, you've got comfy shoes.

Michael: I appreciate that. I'm, I'm hoping you're getting a pair of I hope your house is delivered soon as well, because it's pretty disconcerting. It's so funny.

Josh: It's funny you say that because the ongoing joke— I normally wear running shorts, right? And I spoke to Harry actually, and I decided to put on actual fancy pants.

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I'm not even wearing a hat for people who aren't seeing the visuals.

Michael: And so there's the 2-week sprint that most people are doing, and most people try and sell as much as they can. Most people get to the launch date and they're exhausted. And they're like, "I don't care anymore." And actually, writing the book is miserable and difficult and the easy bit compared to marketing the book because now you're going to make people notice it. And it's like Coaching with Harry, you're like, "Okay, how do I do this? How do I just get out there and bang on doors and show up on podcasts and the like?" And my commitment was to give it a year's really good marketing. So I was on 2 to 3 podcasts per year, per week for a year. And that actually turned into 2 years. I'm like, I can't control the outcome. I don't know how many books I'm going to sell. Publishers don't know how many books they're going to sell. So how would I know? I would be disappointed if it was below a certain number, but I'm just going to work the process in a fully committed way. I'll do all I can to be creative and smart about getting the book into the world.. And either it does or it doesn't. That's all I can do. It's like this is a life lesson because you commit to the process, you let go of the outcome.

Josh: Were you very specific on, I'm giving it 12 months? Like, do you have to be very—

Michael: that was my, that was my initial commitment, which is like, I'm going to bang the drum for 12 months. I'll show up on podcasts, I'll write articles, I'll do whatever I can to see if I can get a flywheel spinning.

Tommy: In an outcome-focused world, how do you detach from the outcome?

Michael: I just practice. I'm like, at the moment, new book coming out February 29th. Part of me is going, "Rise above the outcome, Michael. Just commit to the process." That's your other tattoo, isn't it? Part of me is going, "Okay, so what if I sell 60,000 copies of the book? That would be amazing. That would make it a bestseller on all sorts of levels." way above the kind of predicted performance. And then part of me goes, but that's like 10% of what the coaching habit— what's wrong with you, you loser? So I'm like, ah, so what's helpful is I'm just aware of that tension. And I'm like, okay, just be with it, watch it. Don't get hooked up on it. Commit to the process. Just go. Numbers are just made-up numbers. It's random. So it's either going to— me wanting to sell a certain number doesn't help it sell or not. Me committing to a process is how it works. So it's just— I'm not sure what it is. I'm just old and I've been around enough to kind of go, just try and let go.

Tommy: Um, for something like— so if you haven't seen the video, Josh has 3 cards in front of him which we've spoken about: red, blue, green. How long does it take you to like how much time is spent putting into taking something that's in your head and actually formulating it into a programme or something like these cards? Intellectual property.

Josh: Yes, right. Yeah.

Michael: So for me anyway, it's like, um, minutes and a lifetime. So, um, I got commissioned by a by Nestlé Canada 14 years ago to design my first ever coaching program. And there were an early version of cards like that in that program. And they were blue and they were red and they were green. And I spent 3 months designing this program. I spent 10 years learning how to design programmes and practising and designing other programs, but I spent 3 months designing the program. It was a 2-day program. And over 14 years, this programme has gone through assorted iterations to try and make it more specific, more useful, more elegant, more practical. So it takes time. I'm— one of the things that it turns out that I'm good at is creating intellectual property, creating ways of translating complex ideas into tools that feel simple and practical and useful. So even though people look at this and go, what's the green card coaching? What is this? How hard is it to come up with a few questions? It's like, it's not hard to come up with a few questions, but what this is, is a distillation and a processing of— what this is, is a tip of an iceberg. Like, you see the iceberg, but there's a vast amount of just life and experience and reading and academic understanding that feeds part of that.

Tommy: If we're speaking to Harry and what he identified as a thing he wants to focus I feel like that's something I've experienced and I know Josh. For you, Michael, is there a time where you've questioned your confidence or your feeling moving into a project?

Michael: I, I have a, I have a pretty robust self-esteem. So what I am weirdly wired for and who knows where this comes from because my parents look at me and go, you're a bit of an alien. We don't get it. Is I'm pretty relaxed around failing. When I set things up, I either explicitly or intuitively have a sense of what is at risk. I'm pretty conservative about risking money. I'm not one to kind of go, I'm going all in and it's my life savings on this. I hope it works. I'm less conservative about reputation. I'm like, let me give it a go because if it fails, it'll just suck and I'll feel sad. And we'll move on from that. So I like the edge. I like trying stuff out. I don't get too attached by the outcome. I'm actually really engaged by the process. So, and I know that I don't want to risk the important things. So I'm just clear about what am I actually risking here? And almost always it's never that much. I mean, the first book I published, which I self-published, I inherited, um, $30,000 when my grandfather died. And, you know, my wife and I, we don't, we don't have kids, we don't want to buy a house, we don't own fridges or cars. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to—

Josh: how do you keep your food cold? Yeah, I do it.

Michael: I don't, I'd rent it. Okay, exactly. No fridge. I just go out hunting. It's like, I eat a lot of moose. It's like, hang it outside my house. Freeze it.

Josh: Like, I know Joe Rogan, he freezes his elk. Yeah. So even if you were hunting, you probably would want a freezer.

Michael: I'm not buying white goods. I'm renting it, leasing it. Yeah. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to publish this book. I've got a mailing list of 2,000 people. This book is It was 15 years ago before the real rise of self-publishing and it's a complicated book. So I'm like, it's going to cost me all of $30,000 to get 5,000 copies made. And if I lose it all, I don't care. I'm up for it. This is going to be an adventure. The worst that happens, I'm going to be making furniture out of boxes of books for the next 20 years and giving them to everybody for Christmas again.

Josh: How much friction was that? Like to that, to get to that point of I'm going to spend the 30 grand. Yeah. Is it a lot of conversations? It—

Michael: in this case it wasn't. I mean, we've had— my wife and I have had other conversations where it's like, it's about— it's an ongoing trying to figure it out and untie the knot. Is she wary of you coaching her?

Josh: Does she— would she say, don't coach me?

Michael: Oh, she's like, if I coach you, if, if I find you coaching me, I will kill you. She's really clear about it. She is not— you can't say what else. So Honestly, I think there's— So I was just named, this is a little bit of a boast, I was just named the number 1 thought leader in coaching in the world. Yeah, which is cool. And I'm like, mostly this is due to the fact that Marcela won't let me coach her. So I have to be really brilliant at coaching her when it doesn't look like I'm coaching her. So I'm pretty sure she's completely shaped the direction of my career.

Josh: How do you hide being a coach?

Michael: Yeah, it's all about slipping in the questions so they don't even sound like questions. It's like you start off with like, would you like a cocktail? And that's perfect. That's a question. It gets the curiosity thing going and then it kind of goes from there. Yeah.

Josh: And so the $30 grand, you decide to spend it?

Michael: Yeah, we just went all in on it going, it's made-up money anyway. We found it. So if we lose it and the book sold enough and we got the money back and it was fine. But with all of the books I've published, I got to a point going, I'm okay with the risk of this being a failure because I'm proud of the book. I'm proud of the process. I think this is a great book. It deserves to make some way into the world. So I'm up for it. And if it doesn't work, it just was the— it just— sometimes it doesn't work.

Josh: Spending 2 or 3 times a week doing podcasts with people. What have you learned about podcasting in regards to what makes a good host? He's taking a sip of water. He's really— he's about to break the news to us.

Michael: So, um, it's easier to articulate what makes a bad host because the bad host is like, okay, I'm just rattling through my list of questions. There's no continuity, there's no conversation, there's not— there's— they're not even actually that interested. They're just like, I'm just trying to bag some content here, so I've got 5 questions you will— I'll ask one, you'll give me an answer, then you'll ask a completely unrelated question to follow that. And you're like, oh, I call it my Fast Five.

Josh: Perfect.

Michael: Yeah, I had, uh, this isn't quite the same, but when another book of mine came out, I was being interviewed on a radio station in the States. It's like, the book is called Do More Great Work, so it's like, how do you find work that's meaningful and lights you up? And the radio host clearly not read— not only had not read the book but had not been briefed on it. So he's like, so Michael, what are your thoughts on the economic situation here in America? Well, as a Canadian, I don't know. That was, that was not a great interview. Um, so it's the rattling off of the questions and anything else, like the less sort of, uh, well, I think to me the— I mean, what you're getting is just my own biases around what I like in a podcast, but I love, I love where you have a sense of the host. Um, I love it when the, the host or the hosts are in the moment with the person they're talking to, and it feels like a dialogue in a conversation rather than just a let me ask you questions. I'm like, I want it to be a shared, uh, story. And then I wanted to have a I wanted to have an edge. I wanted to have a point of view. You know, I ran a podcast for some years called The Great Work Podcast, and we did not 535 episodes, but like 400 episodes. And it was— it actually started before podcasting was a thing, but it was a classic Michael interviewing somebody for 20 to 30 minutes. You know, it is the most obvious most repeatable podcast form in the world at the moment. And as I think about what my next podcast will be, and I've been kind of plotting and planning and thinking of a few, I just don't want it to be predictable going, does the world need another short-form one guy asking one other white guy obvious questions? I'm like, no, it doesn't need that. That's— we're already full of that. So what's the interesting— what's the angle? What's the edge? What's the point of view? That makes it, makes it different and richer and more interesting.

Tommy: Like a filmmaker, they, you know, watch back videos, or an editor that spends time just watching how you do everything or doing it, and then you watch a movie back and you're like, I know how that was edited. You can't watch it without that lens on. Do you have the same watching or, you know, listening to conversations where people have an opportunity to ask good questions?

Michael: Kills me when, yeah, it's like, it's like, ask this question. No, you're like, they're kind of, they, they they lose the moment. So it's a little bit, you know, when we started this conversation, you're like, you liked how I ran the session. So in a full-day workshop, there's an arc that I'm going to take everybody through. And I roughly know what the kind of 4 main points of the arc are. I know where we finish.

Tommy: Breakfast, lunch. Pretty much.

Michael: Yeah, it's pretty much breakfast, lunch, dinner, and like 3 cards that we're going to share. And that's it. That's the structure. 3 cards, 3, 3 meals. Part of what I'm trying to do is go, how much freedom can I give the group? How much autonomy? How much sense of building a tribe and building an experience? And how much do I control that so they get what I want them to get out of it? And finding that, that dance, which is how much structure and how much freedom, I think is where it's interesting around that. And I don't— I'm going to hypothesise that most podcast guests don't think too much about trying to find that, trying to find their edge, trying to find their voice. They're just a bit pedestrian.

Josh: I think the other interesting thing that we're trying to uncover or understand is conversations have that natural flow, but normally the first 20 minutes out of an hour is a bit of a waste of time. Yeah.

Michael: And how far— the first 45 minutes. Exactly.

Josh: How do you—

Michael: how do you say first 70 minutes?

Josh: First 70 minutes It's like a casino in here. You don't take out loads. But how do you like— is there— are there techniques to get people into that zone quicker, or do you need the uncomfortable bullshit to get to the gold?

Michael: That's a good question. Let me ask you this because I've got some thoughts on this, but I'll share. I want to hear what you got first. How do you accelerate into a fast conversation?

Josh: Um, well, I think that I, I don't, based on— it's, it's like the paradox or whatever. Like, there's, there's— by trying to get there closer, yeah, you become attached to the outcome. Yeah. Which means you're trying to steer a ship that you actually can't steer. And so for me, it's like being detached, listening And, and so part of it, I guess, is people don't necessarily know what— when they come in here, we've set an expectation of like very little. Like, it freaks a lot of guests out. Like, we get emails of like, just to be clear, like, what are we talking about? Right? Where we sort of like—

Michael: we spent 0 minutes, 0 seconds preparing for this. I don't know where we're going with this, but it's fine.

Josh: And so that's—

Tommy: I mean, there's a lot of tattoo banter.

Josh: I think that that's like the like for us, where we're different is podcasters. It seems a lot of them go into the optimization, like, right, how do we squeeze every little bit of— how do we turn what Michael has done in a book and present it into a podcast? Right. Whereas I guess we're trying to go for nuance. So the long answer— the short answer to the long—

Michael: that was a failure right here. Just fail fast.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What's the short answer? The short answer is you can't. Well, accelerating to great conversation or whatever, that sort of specific one, I don't think is possible.

Michael: I, I don't know. You know, if I, if I was like, how, how do we— I mean, it's a little bit like coaching, you know, the coaching pieces. One of our philosophies about coaching is if you can't coach in 10 minutes or less, you don't have time to coach. Yeah. So part of the power of the opening questions, what's on your mind and then what's the real challenge here for you, is you accelerate into a richer, deeper, more personal conversation fast. I mean, with Harry and I, we're like, 3 or 4 minutes, we're like, I've got this confidence and it's stopping me putting stuff out into the world. And I'm like, okay, that got personal fast. And that's part of the power of that pattern of questions. So I'd be going, how do I accelerate into a fast topic, personal topic quickly, and you do it by through experimenting. So here's an interesting question, which you heard me use actually in the workshop. What crossroad are you currently at? Now, if you sit your guest down and go, all right, so what crossroad are you currently at? Suddenly I'm like, okay, so here's the thing. I've just given up being the CEO at Box of Crayons, and it's— it— I'm just trying to figure out how I give up power and control and status from the thing that I've been doing for 20 years, because in 20 years or so I've been the head of Box of Crayons. How do I hand that over to Shannon? And then what does that mean for who am I becoming now if I remove the label of the guy who did Box of Crayons? Now what? And now we're into a conversation where we're like, and you're like, well, that's juicy. Let's plunge in. Where do you get—

Josh: how do you get the permission to like turn up in that posture? How would you do it? Yeah, I think it's— I think like part of the way is for us, we don't do much context setting. So we think that there's a lot of wasted time in people like doing introductions and bullshit. If they want to know stuff, they can look at your Wikipedia and look at Google. And so that's part of it where it's getting into— there's probably not that much on your tattoos potentially. Yeah. And then I guess the other pet peeve around it is podcasters who will hear you tell a storey somewhere. Yeah. And then they're like, retell that story. Yeah. Or it's like the absolute opposite of what we want. We don't want to hear any of the shit that you've already said. Yeah. Like, for the most part. Yeah.

Michael: Well, Much of what I've said, I've told other people in other situations. But it hasn't— but it's not my— but what you have— I haven't done is do my stand-up. We were talking about the Radio National podcast. That was me just hitting my key messages, key messages. Like, I was just like, bang, this definition of coaching, and bang, this is what Boxer Crowns is, and bang, here are the 7 questions in the book. And it was absolutely a key message performance.

Josh: It's the media-trained thing, which I think that we all— we identify it straight away when people are doing it. Yeah. And try and derail as quickly as possible.

Michael: So that's great. So part of it's like, so you've got a general piece, which is we're going to find interesting nooks and crannies and then kind of dig into them. But it'd be interesting to know if you can accelerate into a conversation more quickly that becomes more personal. Yeah. The 'what crossroad are you at?' is a high-risk question. Some guests, like I would love that question. Yeah. I'm like, oh yeah, let's go there because that's messy and juicy and hard. And other guests I know you've had here would love that. And there's some guests who would have a deer-in-the-headlight look in there, like, I'm sorry, what? I thought I was going to talk about my book. Yeah. So that's where you get to kind of play the risk piece. And that then that sense of vulnerability, not just to the guest, but for the risk that you're taking as the interviewers, is potentially another way of pulling in an audience. They're like, yeah, sometimes their interviews are fantastic. Sometimes you have a guest freaking out. They're like, I don't know, what do you mean, crossroads?

Josh: Yeah. When you were doing the workshop, you talked about pizza innovation, which at that point I applauded. Got this. Yes. I didn't realise that it wasn't to be applauded. Can you tell us, or is that Is that confidential?

Michael: No, no, it's, um, so when I finally staggered out of university, I did an arts law degree here in Australia at ANU. I won a Rhodes Scholarship. I went to Oxford, did a master's degree in literature for 2 years in Oxford. So now I'm like, this is amazing. I've been in university for 8 years. Too long.

Josh: So what do you learn? Like, because from a couple of gronks who didn't do uni, like what, like literature?

Michael: I don't even know why I'm talking to you.

Josh: So what's the deal? What do you do at uni? You read.

Michael: I mean, what are you reading? In my— in— for an English degree, you read books and you read literature, and then you write essays going, here's what I think this book is about. So you're learning to read thoughtfully, you're learning to create an argument, you're learning about different frameworks through which you can see the world. Is like, what happens if you read this text and you come from a perspective around a feminist perspective that's informed about a certain way that women are talked about and women's language shows up? Or what if you're a, you're a Marxist and you think that the framework you see the world is about the evils of capitalism and exploiting the working class?

Josh: So using that example, like the Marxist stuff, like, because you also need to know what Marxists are and what the— like, so where do you learn that bit?

Michael: So for my English degree, that's part of the things that you learn, which is like, here are different ways of seeing the world, and here's how people bring that into how they understand literature. So it brings it to life. When, when you're at high school and you're reading books and you're doing English at high school, it's pretty— it's, it's a little more basic because it's like, what's this book about? And what are the key themes coming out of this book? And what's happening to the characters? After the next level of thinking up, which is what are the frameworks through which you see the world.

Tommy: Was there any realisation of the framework you had when you were researching and understanding?

Michael: Yeah, I mean, it was as much a— these are the frameworks that I am attracted to. So I have a— I, both for my, uh, law degree and my English degrees, I, I had two frameworks that showed up a lot. One is feminism— and the other is what they call postcolonialism, which is just to say there's a— how do I describe postcolonialism, particularly when it's like I haven't thought about it for 30 years as well? So I'm like, what is postcolonialism? I think it's like this. One way of thinking about it, history is written by the winners, and they are the colonizers. So what about the people who aren't necessarily the winners? How do they see the world? So there's a, there's a way of thinking about literature written in Australia where you're like, how do you find a voice about what it means to be an Australian when Australia was colonised by the British and their way of seeing the world and their way of showing up? So for me, I mean, this is getting philosophical all of a sudden, but, um, both feminism and postcolonialism are about how do we challenge the dominant power structure. The dominant power structure is colonialism and capitalism and patriarchy. And how do you dismantle some of that? And in a— I do think that part of what coaching does is it dismantles a power structure because the normal power structure is the boss tells the subordinate what to do. With coaching, the boss says, let me ask you a question and give you the power to figure this out yourself. So it actually disrupts the usual hierarchy. So there is a kind of a through line between stuff I learned at university and what I do now, less about the what happened in the book and more about the how do I think about the world.

Josh: And our mutual mate, Dr. Jason Fox, he talks about meta-modernism. Does that fit? Like, is that something that's new, or is that like, has that always been?

Michael: I, you know, honestly, whenever I'm talking with Jason, I get hypnotised by his beard. I, I stop hearing I don't know what he's saying. I just go, it's like this orange waving kind of seaweed sort of thing. It's amazing. Like, matatu. I don't know. Like, Jason is smarter and better grounded in philosophy and younger than I am, so I'm not entirely sure what he— I honestly, there are sometimes I'm like, I'm barely grasping what you're wrestling with as a thought. But, you know, at the heart of what he does is he keeps stepping back back and going, look, there's no such thing as natural. Everything's constructed. So do you see the power and the constructions and the dependencies that are in the system? And are you happy about that? Yeah. And, and what are the, the, the storeys about how life works that we buy into without thinking? And how do we start thinking about them and deciding whether we want to be part of that or not?

Josh: About overthinking are you, uh, do you prescribe to overthinking? It seems like everyone's talking about, I, I overthink, I'm— my anxiety's based around overthinking.

Michael: Well, that's a, that's a big phrase, and I think it— people are probably using it in different, different ways. Um, I, I'm, I'm, you know, one of the things that I admire about, um, Jason Fox or, um, Cal Newport and The Deep Work, which you asked me about before, is actually creating space to sit and think and figure stuff out, whereas so much of us are bouncing around from commitments and social media and this, so we don't actually do get very deep at all. We all— we stay a bit surface. So I think actually a little space is a way of often reducing anxiety. It's why meditation can be so helpful, because when being pulled this way and that and getting anxious because of it, your problem isn't overthinking, it's overreacting. What's your space?

Tommy: Where do you find space?

Michael: Well, part of it is waking up early. You know, part of it is the fact that our company is a distributed virtual company. So I have my— I just walk up the stairs to the apartment that I rent above the apartment we rent to live in. And that's it. There's an office space there for me to do that. Um, I try and do yoga, um, 3 or 4 times a week. So that's also a space for me to try—

Josh: What sort of yoga do you do?

Michael: You know, my theory is any yoga class that I attend is better than a yoga class I don't attend. So I try not to over— I have a yoga studio I go to, and I'm like, this is the class I can make think it's either going to be good or not good. It's going to be on point or weird. It's an hour where I'm trying to— I did a yoga class this morning and it was yin yoga, which I'd never done before. But yin yoga, unlike all the other ones where you're like, get up, hands up, downward dog, salute to the sun, this is you hold a pose for 5 minutes. So I'm like, okay. And I'm like, wow, that really hurts. So it was like new, but I'm like, it's interesting and it's different. And And it's a— it's an hour where I'm in my body. I'm not looking at the screen and I'm better for it.

Tommy: What about content that might be a bit of an escapism? Action films?

Michael: Uh, you want me to go yes, no, or just if there's—

Tommy: is there something that you go to that you love? Like, what's the kind of stuff you consume that isn't highly rooted to the stuff you do for work?

Michael: You know, I mean, I love a good action film, don't get me wrong. I've seen—

Josh: not every single—

Tommy: look, I'm a Jason Statham guy. Are you? Yeah, I am.

Michael: That's a nice— I don't know. Well, I love the fact that he was a professional diver.

Tommy: Really? Yeah, I didn't know that. And I'm a Jason Statham fan. This is big.

Michael: He, he, he died— he dove for Britain in the Commonwealth Games. Before he, uh, before he became an action star. He does appear to only have one character that he plays. Oi, I'm the top, I'm the top speaking Englishman. Not like that, um, but you know, he's got his shtick and he does it pretty well. Um, so what do I do?

Josh: I'm so impressed by that response because, yeah, go on, about Geekdom.

Michael: Nailed it. It's my guilty pleasure, his films. Yeah. Um, but have you analysed it?

Josh: Like, I play ukulele. Oh wow.

Michael: Um, I play, I play games.

Josh: Is it literally a small guitar?

Michael: It is not literally a small guitar. It has the body that is the same shape as a guitar. It's got 4 strings instead of 6. Guitars are actually tricky to play because you've got the first 4 strings that sound pretty good, and then the top 2 that sound a bit kind of weird if you just strum it, you get a discordant strum. What's awesome about the ukulele is even if you're mostly deficient of musical talent, yeah, like me, you can make a ukulele sound pretty good. And it's like easy, easy to play. Honestly, one finger on one string and you've got one of the chords. Two fingers on two strings, you've got two chords. And with two chords, you can play 80% of all songs. So ukulele is like this fantastically good instrument.

Josh: And so how often, like, did you, uh, how'd you learn the ukulele and how often are you pulling it out?

Michael: So I, um, when I was at uni at ANU, I lived in a house, uh, with 3 or 3 other guys, all of whom were great musicians. So there were instruments lying around the house all the time— guitar, trombone, drums, saxophone, bass guitar, electric guitar, and acoustic guitar. So I picked up the guitar and just learned to play some basics on that, just out of defence as much as anything else.

Josh: So it started the guitar— like, it's less inspiring, to be honest, because you, you learned on the hard one. You could do— I was hoping this was a Uke Only story.

Michael: So I'd never played a musical instrument before. I picked up the ukulele for the first time. You could do a little bit with the guitar. So I could do a little bit with the guitar, because I had a few chords. My wife and I went to a ukulele thing together for the first time. She'd never picked up a guitar, a ukulele before, or a guitar. Okay, good. So she started learning it and she really got the ukulele bug. So there's something called UAS. UAS stands for Ukulele Acquisition Syndrome. Which is like one ukulele is never enough.

Josh: I'm literally missing— I7, were you thinking Josh is going to get a ukulele?

Michael: Yeah, I was thinking about it. Yeah, so we have probably 8 ukuleles. Um, no, we do. At least they're smaller than the guitar. Yeah. Do you have like a—

Josh: how do you put them on the wall?

Michael: No, we, we have, we have, um, a stand which we hang 3 or 4 of them off. That's great. And then we have a— it's kind of like a— it's like a car seat. So you can kind of rack them up like that.

Josh: Right. Yeah. And to finish us off, the— literally on a high note. No, this pizza story. Okay. So 8 years. So you were 8 years into all this university.

Michael: I finished university and I'm like, I don't know what I want to do with my life. I stumbled into this company that is an innovation and creativity company, kind of before innovation became a cool thing. What year was it? This is 1994. And they were just starting up, two guys from Unilever, one of the big producers of consumer goods. And we got hired by Pizza Hut to try and invent new pizzas. And we were well-meaning, but honestly a bit amateurish as I look at it now. So basically hiring new pizzas is like, okay, we're going to bring in some chefs. And we're just going to come up with combinations of stuff and try and make stuff work.

Josh: Do you remember some of them? I mostly—

Michael: I've tried to black that out in my mind because we also did it for KFC, and honestly, I ate a lot of really bad pizza and really bad chicken. So we'd have to come up with ideas, get a chef to make them, test them out, and then if we thought they were okay, we'd then take them into focus groups and we'd have people sit around the table and eat the pizza and go, I like it, I don't like it.

Josh: Is it a bullshit job or is it legit?

Michael: Like, that's a hugely legit job. I mean, it's like, where do all the ideas of all the stuff that ends up in your supermarket come from? Well, it's often from agencies pumping up ideas and running them past people and trying to get feedback and trying to figure it out.

Tommy: Is there a purpose they don't go directly to the food guys? Why don't they?

Josh: Surely the chefs can be creative.

Tommy: No, that's what I mean. You guys are problem solvers. Is that they see you as—

Michael: So part of what you're trying to connect to is what do people really want and what will they actually buy? Because if you're a technical chef in a kitchen, you're like, I like these flavors, and you put it out there and you're like, oh, turns out that the regular family living in Parramatta hates that stuff. So part of what you do is you go, who's your target market? What else do they do? How do we put them in a situation where we can get a real sense of what they'll actually do? And you take your best guess because it's super expensive for a company to invest in the factory and the factory setup and the distribution and negotiating with the supermarkets to get the SKU and get that thing listed if it's going to be a flop. So they really want to try and test it as best they can.

Josh: And so you opened this workshop that you're doing about some of the shit that you weren't necessarily doing that was creating fulfillment. Yeah.

Michael: Which is like most of that stuff because it was actually interesting. We talked about process and outcome before. I loved the process of inventing stuff because you'd run brainstorms, you'd be cool things, you'd send people out on adventures, you come up with great ideas. And I love coming up with ideas. But there was a moment where I was like, you know, what I'm doing is I'm just finding ways to create more stuff in the world. And is the world, is my life and other people's lives going to be that much better by helping Heinz produce their next line of soup? Do I want that to be boasting about when I'm an old man? The answer is no. I really don't. The pizza thing. So look, I played a minor role in helping come up with stuffed crust pizza for Pizza Hut. Stuffed crust pizza. Stuffed crust pizza. I know. See, it's so good. Harry, do you hear that?

Mason: Yeah, but I've never had it. I've never heard of it.

Michael: Really? Exactly. So there's a whole generation of people like, I don't know, that's so 1998. It was big. 'Cause it was, it was radical for pizza at the time because they're like, They did something to the crust. Amazing. And now they're like, who cares? Stuff it with cheese originally, but then they probably—

Mason: so it's like a chicken, how they stuff a chicken with filling.

Michael: Actually, there's a whole technology around how do you get cheese in the outside rim of the crust, because what, what, what the insight was, when you watch people eat pizza, they'll eat the, they'll eat the, the middle part of the triangle and then they'll leave the dry crust. Crust. So they're like, how do we make that a value-add space? So you put cheese in it. And then of course they're like, let's put more cheese in it. Triple cheese stuffed crust pizza. And then they're like, hot dog stuffed crust pizza.

Josh: That's too far. Did you ever see— because we see these films now like Fed Up, which is on Netflix, which is all about like the food industries and government and how they're like, we need to sell more dairy. And you hear that like, you know, organisations are incentivized to use more of these products. Did you see any of that within the innovation space? I didn't.

Michael: And we were really a bridge between that world. There's kind of like a bridge which is like the consumer, the marketing team in the big companies, and we're a bridge between the marketing company team and the consumer. And then there's the marketing team would go back to the R&D people, and then the R&D people connected to the CEOs, and the CEOs are getting bribed by the dairy industry, allegedly. I'm not talking about any CEO in particular, you know, to kind of make all of that stuff work. Yeah. So we were— that was way above our pay grade.

Josh: And so February 29th, you've got your new book, The Advice Trap. And so how do you want people to buy it? Do you want them to go on Amazon? What's the best, best way?

Michael: Yeah, you know, the— there's one way of doing it, which is go to theadvicetrap.com and you can get some downloads and there'll be some preorder bonuses and kind of giveaways and the like. It's great if people preorder the book because it means that all the books people order before the launch date all get counted on the week of the launch date. So while on the one hand I'm not trying to put too much attention on the launch because it's just a week or two, on the other hand, if it does well on the launch week, that's great. So yeah, go to theadvicetrap.com and that will point you to different places where you can buy it and follow up with it if you like. Amazing.

Tommy: Well, mate, thank you so much for spending your time with us.

Michael: My pleasure. It was a great great rambling conversation unlike any podcast I've ever done before. I hit none of my key messages.

Josh: Oh great, that's what we want. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. Also, if you, uh, need video work done for your brand, also hit us up, uh, bigmediacompany.com.

Michael: Yeah, you guys have done some amazing stuff with Jason Fox and with us. Yeah, you've done a really nice job, so I thoroughly endorse that. Oh, thank you.

Josh: Uh, and otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.