Lisa Stephenson On Habits & Challenging Your Beliefs

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 530.

Tommy: Back on the podcast, Lisa Stevenson.

Lisa: Yes, I'm back.

Tommy: How are you?

Lisa: I'm so good.

Tommy: '98 was the last episode you were on. Like when we, we travelled down to your place in Mornington.

Lisa: You did.

Tommy: There was no cameras. There was no Mr. 97.

Lisa: That was good, actually. I'm glad there was no cameras. We had to— we didn't have to have clothes on or anything.

Josh: Yeah, that was true. Well, there was a lot of times I vividly remember that chat because we ended up talking about like sitting in the shower crying. Like it was—

Lisa: Oh, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, that was quite dramatic.

Tommy: You can listen to it if you want. Number 98.

Lisa: Yeah, it was fun actually. So that's like a long time ago really. Have you got better?

Josh: No, we actually haven't.

Tommy: No, but we haven't.

Lisa: You're having a good time though. No, you guys are doing great. You're doing really great.

Josh: Thank you.

Tommy: I mean, the 10,000 rule, 10,000-hour rule. I mean, we're nowhere near 10,000 hours, but I mean, it's like you've been coaching for many, many years. 2 years into your journey, what was your— because you asked us how we're going and we were just joking around. I think we're going okay. Yeah, I think we've got lots of room for improvement. I think we're pretty hard on ourselves in terms of where we want to be. So we don't— we look back at 500 episodes And it's only until we create some highlights video that we even realise how much we've done because we're so focused on where we're going.

Lisa: Where you're going.

Tommy: How's that for you? I mean, you work in this space of helping people through that kind of stuff.

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: What is it for you personally?

Lisa: Yeah. So when I look back sort of 10, 15 years ago and think about the people I was coaching, I wonder if they're okay.

Tommy: I was me. We did a coaching session at a cafe and I'm okay. Are you okay? Well, I think.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did personal training with you and I'm okay.

Josh: Is it based on the shit you're spinning then? Yeah.

Lisa: It's, it's an interesting thing to think about because we do, if we're doing what we're meant to be doing well, and current research tells us we need to be spending about 5 hours a week just to stay current and to be developing our talent. Right. And so if we're doing that and we're evolving, it should mean we're better than we were yesterday. And we're better than we were a year ago. So certainly when I look back over, you know, I mean, clearly it'll surprise you that I'm this old, but when I look back at 20 years of consulting and coaching and mentoring, you do kind of cringe a bit on the inside. And hopefully I'll still feel that about now, you know, in another 10 years, because we do learn so much every day.

Tommy: Are we in some kind of like, what's that little animal that has a really hard back?

Josh: It's like an echidna?

Lisa: Nah, nah, nah, nah.

Tommy: They're like a— look it up. Armadillo? Yeah, little armadillo. Like, do we have an armadillo shield on in the time to not feel that external eyes on us that's actually saying you're actually not as good?

Josh: Or like spikes of an echidna could work as well.

Tommy: Yeah, maybe. But I like the hard shell. Like, you think about you in 10 years thinking about you now and you saying, ah, I'm nowhere near where I was now. So you kind of can cringe. I do the same.

Lisa: How do we—

Tommy: how do you think people are coping through these times when they're just starting? Or what is a coping mechanism to get through that early stage of doing anything?

Lisa: Yeah, so there's a few things that we should be really mindful of. One thing that I've really noticed, because I coach very much in that space of high performance, is a trait of people who are absolutely absolutely wanting to be the very best version of themselves are really hard on themselves. So when I sit down to start a coaching session, the first thing people want to do is talk to me about what's not working, you know, and they're very self-critical and, uh, the first people to kind of gather evidence about what they need to be doing better. And so it's really challenging for people when I say, tell me about what's working really well, you know, where we end up with this kind of culture, I think, in Australia where we end up with well-developed weaknesses because we spend a lot of time talking about improving ourselves and areas for development, and we do not spend enough time talking and thinking about what we're doing really well. And it makes sense, right, that the stuff that we're doing really well is the stuff we enjoy more.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lisa: So for you guys, you know, I'd say, when, when did you last have a really great meaningful conversation about what you're absolutely smashing out of the park. You know, what's going really, really well in business and for your audience.

Tommy: Oh, we're egomaniacs, patting each other on the back every day.

Josh: Well, it feels like a luxury, right? When you've, it feels like that's not a pain point that needs to be addressed. So for instance, if you've got a car and one tyre is flat, you don't need to focus on anything else other than the flat tyre. Because the idea is if I get the flat tyre working, Everything's going to be fine.

Lisa: Everything will work and I can get to where I need to go to. But with development, you know, going back to the armadillo, I can't quite believe we got that word in so early and quickly. But we do do development.

Tommy: My spirit animal.

Lisa: Yeah, your spirit animal.

Tommy: My spirit animal.

Lisa: That doesn't sound very attractive.

Josh: No, it doesn't.

Lisa: You could have come up with something better than that.

Josh: Are they smart?

Tommy: I mean, don't judge my armadillo.

Lisa: Look, we're going to, Mr. 97, this is on it. We're going to find out.

Josh: Qualities of an armadillo.

Lisa: You heard it here first, people. Like we're all going to be armadillo.

Josh: Hard shell, beautiful hair. Aggressive, aggressive, high testosterone.

Lisa: Yeah. And hides. Yeah. So, you know, we do develop this outer exterior that is about what we want to project to the world and how we want people to see us. And what we know is that current trends are telling us that we expect and want to see vulnerability and authenticity is something that we talk about. But how many people are actually really good at that? You know, it gets so lost in all the noise of everything that we're trying to be.

Josh: What about asking for help?

Lisa: What? Yeah, what? It's, it's, I mean, it's part of our culture that we're meant to— I talk about the three things: we're meant to know, we're meant to be right, and we're meant to look good. And so there's something about this ability that we have to say, actually, what if I don't know the answers? And what if I'm the person who's asking questions that I don't know the answers to? And what role do I have to play with others in terms of learning? Like, we miss a lot when we're so worried about about having to know.

Josh: I think maybe part of it too is being in a period of needing to ask for help at the moment. Part of the challenge is because we've been pretending to know. And so when you've been pretending to know, it becomes a lot harder because you have to address the fact that you didn't know before.

Lisa: Yeah. And also, have you noticed how busy we all are? You know, the pace at which we are working and churning out everything in our life is so fast. So we just keep going, you know, we just keep going and we get up each day. And I mean, to be busy, I mean, we understand now we've had this conversation, you know, everyone understands that being busy is not good for us. It doesn't mean that we're great at what we're doing or that we're talented. In fact, there's real consequences for how busy we are that I don't think we've quite seen yet.

Josh: You know, it's because I guess there is that idea of if I'm doing If I've got the option of doing something or nothing, I'm better off doing something. How do we distinguish between the moments that we need? We had Stacey June on yesterday and she was talking about space. We need space, we need to create space. When do we need space and when do we actually need to get our shit together? How do we create that distinction?

Lisa: Yeah, we need stillness every day. You know, we talk a lot about being healthy and physical activity and learning and having great plans for our future. But actually our brain's got to have time to process and our body's got to have time to heal. So even now when we see people sitting on trains and out exercising, you know, hopefully they're just listening to you. But, you know, we're so full. Like people tell me about how they're listening to stuff even when they're in the shower and I'm like, oh, really? That's a visual I didn't quite need, but okay. And so it's, it's got to be part of our everyday habits. We've got to have an everyday habit that says, Um, you know, I have 20 minutes of window time a day, which is where I just need space to kind of look and enjoy whatever view. It might be a café, it might be sitting in my office, but we've got to have times where we stop. And also reflection, you know, reflection. There's something about giving yourself time to decide what meaning you want to give the experiences that you're having, time to assess what's working and not working for you. And also making sure that you have time for stuff that's opportunistic. You know, when we get so scheduled that we can miss stuff that we really need to have.

Josh: How do you create stillness?

Lisa: So this, this is actually a challenge for me. Like, I talk about this because it's a challenge that I work on as well. You know, I'm a single full-time working mom with 3 children. Like, firstly, what was I thinking? But, you know, so life is really full and busy, but I do have some non-negotiables. And they might be simple things like whether it's going for a massage. Walking is really important to me. It's quite sacred to have that time each morning where I walk. I don't ever start my day without meditating. And I don't mean this one, you know, the clenched little fingertips and—

Tommy: You mean the Daily Teacher?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Solid session.

Lisa: Yeah, that's right. Meditation. Yeah, so there's lots of things we can do that don't take time or money but allow us that space to actually process. Have you guys heard of streamed concerts? Conscious writing?

Josh: No, I can—

Tommy: so it's like The Artist's Way. It's taking a notepad and writing whatever comes to mind, the garbage and the conscious, just whatever comes out.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, look at you.

Lisa: It's good.

Tommy: Our mum was into it, and I mean, it's a famous old book, The Artist's Way, and so they have— there's a bunch of things to do to untap creativity. But that— I did that for a long time, and I did it in times where it was hard, where I was going through something hard. And it was, it was great. Like just getting it out. It's, I mean, there's so much crap. Like when you start writing, it's like some of it's just the most garbage. But the point is not to judge what's coming out.

Lisa: Yeah, you don't edit. You don't even have to show it to anyone. But there's something really good for us and healthy for us about taking the time to just sit and be and pick up a pen. You can type as well, but literally just writing what's on your mind. And sometimes it allows you to let stuff go. There's a whole lot of really fascinating research about what happens when we write before we go to sleep. You know, like what our brain can then actually do with that content. So there's a whole lot of strategies, you know, Josh, around how we look after ourselves and take that space and time.

Tommy: Sorry, you go.

Lisa: Well, no, you go.

Tommy: Okay, thank you. All right, we're just having a bit of a tear off.

Josh: Persian phrase.

Tommy: Yeah, Persian phrase. Tussle. The high performers, people who are in lead, high up leadership roles within businesses that are very goal-driven, outcome-focused, how do you convince them when these things don't necessarily have an outcome on the other side that is tangible for many years? Or it could be months, or it could be a few sessions.

Josh: But what about if it's intangible?

Tommy: Yeah, or if the result is intangible, you can't see it.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So the challenge with people who are in massive jobs, and that might be a CEO, or it can be someone who's an elite athlete, you know, whose day starts at 5 AM, is getting them to understand the consequence of not taking care of themselves and also the consequences for people around them. So, you know, if you've got a marriage or a primary relationship or you're a parent or perhaps you're involved in your community, making sure that you have the priority and giving the time to the stuff that really matters is going to give back to you in so many ways. So I think this is a real challenge that— excuse me— that particularly leaders face is they all feel time poor. You know, none of them are sitting around going, I'm bored, what will I do today? There's, there's lots of different things that they're managing. But if you don't write it down, if you don't commit to it, if you don't make it part of your plan, it won't happen. So I normally will sit down with the people that I'm working with at the beginning of the year, and we actually make it something quite measurable. You know, I get very specific with them about how much time are you going to allocate to this? What does it look like on a daily basis? How will we know if it's working? And it's evolving your plan, you know, because things change. So having a coach or a mentor or a trusted advisor, someone that you can actually have a conversation with to say, you know, hey, how's it going?

Josh: Because it feels like there's like, we know what we need to do. Like, it feels like in 2019 when there's so many podcasts, so many books, it's become popular culture to know around meditation, around journaling, around sleep. Like, there's— you can go through the list of everything we need to be doing. So then I guess it becomes a question of prioritisation or starting What is the single thing that you've found that if people do this one thing, they start with this one thing, it will then trickle down to the other things?

Lisa: Yeah, that's a, that's a really great question. It's having a plan. It's having a plan. I think most of us are going along to get along. Yeah. And we're being busy. And I can't tell you the impact of sitting down and actually writing a plan, working out what your commitments are. Daily, weekly, monthly, and evolving that. And it should be this living, breathing document that reflects the things that are most important to you. Success doesn't happen accidentally, and neither does happiness. So if we don't get quite deliberate about how we're going to look after ourselves around what success is going to mean for us, it actually won't happen. And just, you know, on that point, Josh, about— we kind of know, we do know, right? Like, we've never had access to as much information and inspiration as we have right now. Like I'm fascinated by that.

Josh: Eat more plants. Like, is there anyone that doesn't know to eat more plants?

Lisa: Well, you eat more kale, drink milk, don't drink milk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Tommy: Bread is cake.

Lisa: Why is it that we have so many mental health issues and we have so much unhappiness and we've got the World Health Organization talking about that burnout is a really significant factor costing us a lot of money now, and we haven't even seen the real consequences of that yet. So, so yeah, we know, we do know what we're meant to be doing, but we're actually not doing it.

Josh: Is it because we don't know what the future holds? Like, like a part of me is like, I don't know, in on like a more global scale. So global turmoil, if we see what happened with the banks or any industry, we're like, actually, we don't know if any of these things are going to exist. We don't know if this is like clients are going to exist? Does that mean that we exist?

Lisa: Like, all of those corporate structures exist. What does a freelance economy mean? Uh, you know, the stuff that, um, as a mum of 3, I sort of— I'm quite interested in the things that my children are maybe going to study. Will that be a thing? Is that an industry? Is that a job that will exist? The transferable skills that we need to learn now— I was reading an article about this recently, you know, that around— I'm sort of making up the number— was 40 or 42% of the skills that we have now now won't necessarily serve us in being successful in 5 years' time. And so, you know, there is all of this uncertainty and there's this really fast pace and there's lots and lots of change that's happening. But do you want to hear my prediction?

Josh: Yes, please.

Lisa: Because clearly I would know. Yeah, I'm an expert in predictions, did you know? Um, futurist.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, LinkedIn.

Lisa: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, hashtag futurist. Um, is I think that where we're sitting right now in a place of saying we've actually got to get back to basics You know, we've— I actually think part of what we will be working with, with our clients over the next couple of years is going to be things like communication and having healthy relationships. You know, we've got so great at our— the way that we can access people all around the world in a really instant, immediate kind of way. But there's some things here that are kind of screaming out at us, like our environment. Yeah. You know, and if you look at the next generation of kids, like, how great are they? You know, so they also don't like calling, being on the phone.

Josh: So that's one thing which is valid, which is valid, I think. But do we— are we falling into the trap of treating ourselves like computers? So I guess we spend so much time within technology and you press a button and the thing does the thing. Is there, I guess, Yeah, how do we deal with that within management, which is like, uh, it's actually us communicating, saying, hey, do this thing. It doesn't actually just sort of trigger all these things and the thing happens. You might get back, it's like the person hasn't done that thing, they get misinterpreted.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. And we're losing some stuff as part of that process, like trust. Yeah, you know, when we're having interactions and it's very mechanical or it's about a process we're losing the experience and we're losing some of the learning. So, you know, my— one of my real passions at the moment is talking to people about, uh, where are they actually getting their learning from, where are they getting their inspiration from, how many conversations have they had recently that have really triggered some different thinking for them. So I think, you know, if we look at AI and, you know, your head can hurt thinking about all of the change that's going to hit us in the next 5 years, you and I were having an embarrassing conversation a few minutes ago before we started recording about, you know, there was no schoolies when I finished school and there was also no mobile phones, you know. And so everything's happening really, really fast. But there's something really instinctive in me saying at some point it's all going to break a bit and we're going to say we need to get back to caring deeply about our purpose and caring deeply about the environment that we live in. And the connection piece with the people around us and the leaders that are making decisions about the world that we live in, you know, I mean, you mentioned the banks earlier, you know, integrity, and you can't get that from a machine.

Josh: Yeah, the, the con— I guess connections, there is that idea too of, uh, connecting with one another but also understanding ourselves. And sort of it feels like— I don't know if it's because I'm a year off being 30, but there is that sense of like, so old. Yeah, but you start asking those questions of, uh, who am I? Who am I? But also like the broader thing is like, how many of the things do I think are based on my previous experience and what I've been programmed based on culture? And so when all of that comes up in the air where it's like, okay, the operating system in which I exist is in question, How do we reconcile our internal operating system to then be able to communicate better with others?

Tommy: Is this early onset midlife crisis? Is that what's happening?

Josh: I think everyone's having their midlife crisis, maybe earlier.

Lisa: Maybe, maybe.

Tommy: I actually take some solace in the fact that everybody's struggling. Because I think about like me and my struggles, right?

Josh: And then you got everyone's fucked.

Tommy: James, your young son who's got his own struggles.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Should he have struggles? Maybe not. Maybe. Should I have struggles?

Josh: Maybe.

Tommy: Maybe not.

Lisa: We've all— I mean, you know, I spend my day sitting and talking with people. You know, that's what a coach does is we reflect back what we're hearing and we're asking questions and we're helping people to kind of work out what their thinking is and what their plan is. And oh, believe me, we've all got our stuff. Like there is nothing. I don't think there's too— you can take this as a challenge, but I don't think there's too much I haven't heard. You know, I think everyone's trying to find their way. There's not too many people you meet who go, I've got it sorted. Yeah. And we probably wouldn't like them for it.

Tommy: I mean, what's the, the cultural response when someone says, how you going? Yeah, good.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like, that's a— am I like, I don't know which one. So then you're making a split-second decision about what should I share with you based on— I mean, I don't even think like that. I'm just like, it's also on gratitude.

Josh: Like, I think that part of it is because we're told that we need to feel like— you need to feel good, you should be grateful. And so anything other than being good is dismissed. Like, because things are good. Like, you can always change perspective in saying, you know, this specific thing, uh, isn't good, but I woke up today and everything, you know.

Lisa: Of course, of course. But if we think about, you know, your point around the internal operating system that is us and the question of who am I, and, you know, it all kind of comes under this self-awareness piece, right? Like, how self-aware are we? What is the experience that we create for the people around us? Um, and I, I think it's— and I have this conversation with clients often, you know, how many, how many of your beliefs are yours, you know, like what the stuff that's in your head and the map that you use to navigate the world and the values that you have, where have they come from and how many of those have you consciously chosen? So, you know, your parents, your teachers, social media, there's a whole lot of things that play a role in determining what goes in here. But how often do we sit down and go, hmm, you know, as a, as a mum to an 18-year-old who's just gone off to schoolies and you're having a conversation around, right? You know, what, what is it that I most want him to remember, to value, to understand, you know, to take away with him? And I wanted to be, you know, the parent that was wise and, and also cool. I wanted to be cool. I did not master that, but I tried. And, you know, you hear yourself saying the things that your parents said and you kind of go, well, hang on, is that how I want to parent?

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And, you know, so if we're If we're having about 60,000 thoughts a day, do you have more or less than that?

Josh: I have about 120,000.

Lisa: Yeah, 120,000.

Tommy: It's on overdrive.

Lisa: Mostly about when you're going to have lunch and what time and where the lollies are.

Josh: Well, finding out with, yeah, what's free on Uber Eats, like delivery.

Lisa: That's a topic.

Josh: Because you know they do that, they have a whole carousel of what's free right now.

Tommy: Can we get an update on the cost, how much money you spend on Uber Eats recently?

Josh: No, but not as much as Brendan Favola, Adam and Simon who we had on were saying that he spent— how much was it?

Tommy: $60,000? He's a top spender. I remember reading something saying $35,000.

Josh: $35,000 in 6 months.

Tommy: Yeah, something like that. So $60,000. $35,000 on Uber Eats.

Lisa: Is this like a thing? Yeah, a competition?

Josh: Well, it's not— no, it's not a competition, it's just living. It's called hunting and gathering. It's called living. It's called Breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Tommy: I come down when Josh has got some smelling food that smells amazing. I come down and say, what has the modern-day man hunted and gathered today?

Josh: I had a chicken parma that seemed like it was like a proper pub meal. It looked great.

Tommy: It came in a pizza box, bro.

Josh: Yeah, it was perfect.

Tommy: It was amazing.

Josh: Yeah, it was really—

Tommy: and I was envious.

Josh: Like, I put it onto a plate.

Lisa: Can we just go back up? Yeah, what was the point of the Uber Eats conversation?

Josh: I don't know how much I think about like what I'm thinking about. So what it's going—

Tommy: what?

Josh: No. So, in the Uber Eats app, there's a section. Yeah. There's a section that says like free delivery right now and you get 4 minutes and you have to order that thing in 4 minutes and then it resets.

Tommy: It's gamified it. It's a complete—

Lisa: Yeah. I didn't know about this. And I must say, I'm not— You're actually even going to get it.

Josh: So, here, I'll show you. So, I can tell you what we can get right now.

Lisa: This is going to be my learning today. You know how we talk about how you should proactively learn new things in life? You got to learn.

Josh: So, learning's bullshit?

Tommy: You know, worthy, but you decide.

Josh: Okay. We have a look here. Okay. No, won't. So, free delivery promotion right now. We have 4 minutes and 53 seconds to order either Onnit Burger, Bill Big Al's Fried Chicken. Not many options for 10:40. And so then, bargain. Yeah. I'm sort of, I'll leave it. If I start at about 11 or whenever we finish this, I'll start refreshing. And when it gets to something that feels like a meal, 'Cause these fried chicken and burgers don't feel like it.

Lisa: Josh.

Josh: I'm starting.

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: Do you see it as pathetic?

Josh: No, no. I see it as, I need to eat.

Tommy: Yeah, I know.

Lisa: It's a practical thing.

Josh: One thing that I am wanting to get into, which I mentioned already, is on a previous episode, is do you freeze much food? Do you do that?

Lisa: Not a lot, no.

Josh: And so I've never been much, of a person to freeze food, but I saw a great recipe which is like frozen breakfast burritos. So, you make them in bulk, you put them in foil, and then you get a sandwich press.

Lisa: This is life-changing stuff.

Josh: Yeah, a sandwich press.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And then you cook it with that. And because I have a theory that potentially some of these places where I get my burritos from, I have a feeling they're probably just doing that exact thing.

Lisa: Oh, you're eating frozen burritos?

Tommy: No, no, they're fresh. They're definitely fresh. Well, they know they map it out with the ingredients. You can have the mix for the burrito. It lasts across a couple of days, but it's not— they're not freezing. So let's look at the beliefs.

Josh: So what about the thoughts? 60,000 thoughts?

Lisa: I'm actually— you may be having 100, not 120. But so on this, Tommy, you know, if we think about the example that we've just seen firsthand, we're having about 60,000 thoughts today. And the research tells us that 95% of those thoughts are habitual. I know, contain yourself.

Tommy: I thought you were going to say about food.

Lisa: Well, it may actually be higher for Josh. Like we might be hitting the 99% mark. But in the context of this conversation and even your Uber Eats example, what we do is we get up most days and we think the same things and we do the same things. We're actually really, really habitual. And so when we think about talent and high performance and, you know, hashtag living my best life, this is actually where the opportunity is. You know, how often do we have brand new thinking and how often do we deliberately create opportunities for ourselves when we can? I mean, what would be living on the edge for you today? Would it be not ordering Uber Eats or ordering?

Josh: Yeah, to be honest, it would be going to the plate because sometimes I'll Uber Eats when it's like 600 metres on a burger, 30% off through my app and I can just walk down. So I think like going into the place.

Lisa: Yeah. Amazing experience.

Josh: Potentially eating in. In or whatever. It's just definitely not, um, yeah.

Tommy: So you're going— so is the goal to, um, to consciously break the habit? So it could be, I'll go to a new cafe this morning. Yeah, that's just—

Lisa: and have a conversation with a different person. Or it can be, you know, we have— we've all heard the story, you know, try and write with a different hand. Or do you know, you even shower in the same way. Now, I don't want to know what you boys do.

Josh: I've started doing cold showers the last 2 days, and great, I connected it with the breathing technique that we learned off our friends Matt and Nat, which is—

Tommy: don't do that in the shower, you idiot.

Josh: So I have the cold— no, because it's like the Wim Hof thing, like I'm combining—

Tommy: you don't do it in the cold standing up. If you pass out, you're going to smash your head. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Josh: Well, I did it.

Tommy: Wim Hof's lying down, dude. You lie down.

Josh: Well, so I did it and I felt because I couldn't fit.

Lisa: Very direct feedback.

Tommy: I'm worried.

Lisa: I'm worried.

Josh: I'm worried.

Tommy: Falling over, banging his head, and then the podcast can't go on.

Josh: But I'm actually—

Tommy: What a way to go.

Josh: What a way to go. One episode, and it's because of a breathing technique.

Tommy: Hero over here was Wim Hofing in the stand.

Lisa: That'd definitely get you airtime. People would be interested in that story, how Josh went out.

Josh: But it's, um, From the ER room.

Tommy: So emergency department. ER. ER.

Josh: There you go. Emergency room.

Tommy: We actually would do that.

Josh: Did you watch ER back in the day? ER, did you watch that show? A little bit.

Tommy: George Clooney.

Lisa: I still hope.

Josh: George Clooney, did you say?

Tommy: No, what was he in? ER? Yeah, he was in ER.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: Really?

Lisa: Yeah. Mr. 97.

Tommy: Do you reckon George has got better looking with age?

Josh: Yes.

Tommy: How do you pull that one off? I mean, it's still better than deteriorating.

Lisa: Would you say yes to George?

Josh: Yeah, I'd kiss George.

Lisa: Yeah, would you turn for George?

Josh: Yeah, you definitely—

Tommy: I mean, I'd have a coffee and a kiss.

Josh: Part of it, the coffee and a kiss.

Lisa: Would you order Uber Eats with George?

Josh: Yeah, definitely.

Lisa: George, would you do that?

Josh: Yeah, I think he seems like a nice guy.

Lisa: Yeah, he does. What are you basing that on? What do you base that on?

Josh: Oh, just nothing really. Nothing?

Tommy: He's a very humanitarian. He's a humanitarian.

Lisa: He is.

Josh: And he's a lot of good stuff. Do you know who is actually a really nice guy? Tom Hanks. Oh, I went down a rabbit hole of watching. There was a New York Times article, and then I watched all these YouTube videos of him just in interviews.

Lisa: Did you see the one where the woman was getting married in, I think it was in Central Park in New York, and he stopped and took photos and congratulated her?

Josh: And when he's got a rule, anytime there's a phone, he sees someone's phone, he picks it up and does a selfie.

Tommy: Oh, I've seen that.

Lisa: It doesn't have as much contact with people as well.

Josh: Well, this is the thing, it doesn't have much as much cutthroat if you're not Tom Hanks. Yeah, it's annoying.

Lisa: Yeah, it actually makes you a stalker.

Tommy: Yeah, I'd be happy with Tom. Yeah, he, you know how he played Sully, who's the guy who landed the plane on the Hudson River?

Josh: Pilot.

Tommy: Yeah, the pilot. So the real Sully was— I saw him talking about something, a guy came up to him and said, mate, I didn't really like you in that movie. Like, he was, he was talking to Sully, the thinking, the real guy, like it was him.

Josh: Where do you even read that? I don't know, man. Scoopla. Scoopla.

Lisa: Scoopla. All over it. All over it. So anyway, I think, I think what we're taking from this conversation is really a learning lesson for you today, Josh, about we need to get you creating some new experiences for yourself.

Josh: I agree.

Lisa: That's your challenge.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's one that you've recently done that you've seen had huge impact?

Lisa: What's one that I've seen recently? Um, I see them all the time because this is what coaching people is. It's, um, I actually had a conversation with someone this morning where I said, you know, if you were going to be brave, you know, what would be the scariest thing that you could do for yourself? Um, and her response to that was to get strong and healthy. And I was like, wow, why would— why is it brave to be strong and healthy? You know, tell me about that. Um, I got a message from someone on the way here who has been wanting to write a book for 10 years, and to say that out loud and make a commitment, you know, requires a mindset and, and some accountability. But it can be really small things as well. You know, it can be sitting in you know, Qantas Club, not getting your laptop out and looking like you're open to conversation. Actually, that could be a different thing. Let me retract that.

Tommy: But what I'm fascinated is by beliefs that are shifting. So I'm thinking for myself, like I think about when I was a stripper and I'd just come off the back when I met you of doing that.

Lisa: I was going to say, can we all be really clear? I did not meet Tommy when he was a stripper.

Tommy: It was actually at a self-development Weekend away with Craig Harper.

Lisa: It was.

Josh: So, um, he hires strippers for the—

Tommy: no, so it was for the butts. But it's like what I believe— I think about— it's probably hard. It's kind of hard to take stock of your shifting beliefs, but one thing that I've shifted is the thinking about people in that space, and it's purely based on my experience being in that. So being in the adult industry, in the striping—

Josh: judgment.

Tommy: I mean, I guess we're all looking at it, basing it on our past experiences, but I'm like, how positive is that? And what's the— even if you find a good outcome, being in that space, it's still not even that great. And so I'm just trying to work out my thinking around that. And, you know, people doing that shit now is so different to what I had when I was doing it, you know, made it all make sense for me.

Lisa: This is actually why change is really hard. Like at at the fundamental basic level, change is hard is because we have these random thoughts. When we have a thought 6 times, it becomes a belief, and our brain creates that pathway, right? And then the, the job of our brain is to make those beliefs right. So we're looking for evidence to make ourselves right all the time. So, you know, I have conversations with clients where I'll say, you know, when was the last time you sat down and wrote out what are the beliefs I have that no longer serve me? You know, what are the beliefs I have that are going to support me in being amazeballs next year? What are the beliefs I have that I actually am not even sure I agree with anymore? So, you know, we spring clean, we spring clean our house, we get a personal trainer to improve our body, we see nutritionists to make sure that we're eating good food. But what's our commitment to cleaning out our brain and making sure that our brain is really healthy? And, you know, the, the research tells us that currently we're having the 60,000 thoughts, about 95% of them are habitual, and about 80% of those thoughts are negative. Like, let's just all be quite depressed about that. So what that means is we're boring, habitual, and negative.

Josh: Um, my new Instagram bio.

Lisa: But this is, you know, for me as a coach, this is what potential is, you know. We— there's so much for us to still learn and evolve. And can you, can you think about a time or give me an example when you had a brand new thought for the first time? Like, when did you last have a brand new thought and go, oh yeah?

Josh: I mean, for me it was watching that Game Changers doco and then going vegetarian, but that was I had that thought and then 4 weeks later I'm like, it was, um, well, I realized—

Lisa: So did you become vegetarian?

Josh: Yeah, for 4 weeks.

Lisa: Right.

Josh: And so then I was like, so I was challenging—

Lisa: I don't know if that's becoming a vegetarian, that's 4 weeks.

Josh: I tried it for a bit, but it was, yeah, it was one of those ones where it's like, I'm going to challenge this, trying to be detached of my previous, the way that I was previously doing it. What you did before.

Tommy: Yep.

Josh: But the thing is that it's, What Tommy and I were talking about is it's not addressed, like cancelling out that thing isn't actually addressing the thing. And so I guess that's one of the, especially for people who have that sort of like disordered eating or whatever, as Harps talks about. These all become like, these are all different versions of that. They're all at their core obsession around how you eat and what you're eating.

Lisa: And the feelings that we associate with that.

Tommy: And even if we do think we had a new thought, Is it though?

Josh: You know, like Josh, you came in this morning, you'd been listening to something that had sparked something and it resurfaced existing ideas and yeah, and being able to reframe it or have clarity on it or inspire it because I guess it's that whole like knowing isn't doing. And we always constantly have these thoughts around, I think it's this or that. And then it's only when you have a conversation with someone and then there's maybe a misinterpretation where you're like, oh mate, I'm not being clear. I'm not actually doing the thing that I think that I'm doing. Or we need to do a better job of communicating what we believe and what we're trying to do.

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: There's a lot of counter-information on everything. So it's, if we're looking at these things as truth, there's multiple. And so you take example in motivational quotes. So, build it and they will come or something like that. Or the harder you work, the luckier you get. Are these true? Maybe for some they really resonate. Resonate. And so that's why when you find a quote that resonates, you're like, oh fuck, yeah, yeah, that knows me. Yeah, it does. That gets me.

Lisa: Could have written it myself. In fact, wish I did. Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: Well, should we— let's dissect a— let's find an opposite of a motivational quote. What's one that you like? And then let's see if there is another side and explore that. Have you got one that comes to mind?

Lisa: Uh, one that I really like at the moment is, you've got everything you need, but it will take everything you've got.

Tommy: You've got everything you need.

Josh: Okay, so deconstruct wrong.

Tommy: Thank you.

Lisa: I don't have Uber Eats in front of me right now.

Tommy: Subjective having that you've got everything you need.

Lisa: Well, you know how you said sometimes you read something and it really talks to you, right? You go, oh yeah, you've got me. Yeah, yeah, you've got me.

Josh: Here's a reframe: you don't have everything you need and that's okay.

Lisa: Oh, stop it.

Tommy: Yeah, like that.

Josh: Like, so it's a detachment of I don't have a lot of patience.

Lisa: Hang on, you're ruining my favourite quote. Hang on, can we choose a different one?

Josh: Well, you can do that with anything, right? Like, I even think about like, the grass is always greener on the other side. I have an issue with that quote because it, because what it's setting up, it's sort of what you were talking before, TJ, about knowing that everyone else is fucked and being okay with that. And the problem I have with the grass is always greener on the other side is it's predicated on the idea that everyone else is going through shit and that is what should make me happy, feel better.

Tommy: I mean, that my thinking is the opposite of the grass is always green on the other side. The guy over the side fence, he's got his shit too. Yeah. So even what the grass is, you know, but the grass is always green on the other side is that it's all looking rosy and it's like it looks good. So you're seeing into the other fence. Like if you jump up on the fence, it's green, he's watering it, but he's severely depressed.

Josh: Yeah. But the thing is, maybe I get like one of the reframing ideas, like cheque on him, by the way. Well, maybe they're catching up to maybe their grass is green because they're watering it and they need to do exactly what they need to do. And so all we have is what we can do and the inner work that, you know, that's available to us.

Lisa: And yeah, I guess it's not always greener either, right? And also people can make things look a particular way to us. And, and I think, you know, also what I'm hearing, Tommy, is it's really hard to have an original thought. You know, like it's really hard to come up with something that's just yours, you know, because we do collect. And, and I actually think that's awesome. I think we should steal stuff and we should note the things that we see and hear other people do. You know, when we hear a quote that we love, I think it's great to put your own spin on it.

Tommy: Unless you're a Melbourne-based children's book writer that on the back cover it said, I've got 99 problems, but my ABC ain't one. And they got sued by Jay-Z just recently.

Lisa: Oh, really?

Josh: Oh, really?

Lisa: That's annoying.

Tommy: Don't steal Jay-Z's shit. No, I don't. If you're going to steal anyone's, not Jay-Z. Steal mine, Josh's, Lisa's.

Lisa: Mine, mine, mine.

Tommy: No, but I— yeah, I mean, in the video space, I've seen people doing carbon copy style videos of other ones I've seen. It's like they're just identical and they work. And you could easily be like, this uncreative, like, shit kickers, just ripped off somebody. But then the other way is, no, it's actually, it's a tested method and it works and you can inject your own personality.

Lisa: And so, and if they did the work right, they had to go and hire the camera or film or write the script or study it. You know, like there's something about doing the work yourself.

Tommy: And so there's effort that they've put in that, I mean, this is just like key, like sitting behind a keyboard, it's so easy to—

Josh: It's also the projection of projecting our own feelings around like, what are you doing differently? Who are— like, then it comes down to identity. But everyone, like, if you think about it, you need to, um, before you can actually create your own style, you need to pick up— like, if you think about, like, I think about all the videos I made as a kid, they were all parodies. It was all like Aussie Adventure Ventures, The Panel, recreating all of this stuff with the idea of like, okay, you emulate and then you like get going and then you find your own thing. Like, why recreate the wheel from scratch? Like, I think that's almost—

Lisa: yeah, we take inspiration from the stuff around us that, you know, that resonates or that we think we can learn from or that we dislike. If you think about leaders, people that you work with, it's— we also learn so much from people who are arses. Yeah, you know, like we really do. Like, I think we we have this negative kind of vibe that we can put around stuff that's hard and people that are really difficult. And I was having a conversation with someone recently about someone that they're working for who is a tosser, like actually a true blue tosser.

Tommy: Factual tosser.

Lisa: Factual tosser. There's plenty of evidence.

Tommy: It's on their LinkedIn.

Josh: It's actually on their profile.

Lisa: And, you know, you know, you were saying earlier, we can always frame stuff up. But I said there's actually something really powerful powerful about you knowing you won't be a tosser going forward. You know, like you're learning what that feels like on the other side. And when we— it's when we stop and think about, I will never do that to someone else, or I'm going to be really aware that I'd never want someone to feel that way when they're around me. You know, we learn a lot from that stuff, and it can get lost in all the noise.

Josh: We can— you can choose for something to serve you or not to serve you. And if we've got all these things happening in life defaulting to using it as a way of serving, I guess. Makes sense.

Tommy: You mentioned sort of the high performers you deal with are hard on—

Lisa: I don't deal with them, I work with them. That sounds—

Tommy: work with.

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: Support. Educate.

Lisa: Yes.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Love.

Tommy: Better.

Lisa: Better.

Tommy: Maybe not love. Yeah. Are hard on themselves. I think about us and we're in the midst of doing a lot.

Josh: There's a couple of high performers.

Tommy: Well, I think we're trying to be high performers in the face of this. You can't help but say yourself. Well, I think we could we couldn't do this if we weren't trying to perform at a high level. And so then there's also a moment where you are in it and you're like, I'm not doing enough. And I could imagine you felt like that. You're a high performer.

Lisa: Oh yeah, totally rocking it. Clearly. You did. Can I? So I just want to— can I give you some feedback?

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah. To both of you, actually.

Josh: So is it my shorts?

Lisa: So actually, I do want to talk about—

Josh: it's because I'm sitting down. Stand up.

Lisa: Yeah, maybe we'll talk about that privately. Um, but the thing that I think you're doing really, really well is the consistent work. So people want success really quickly, and we see so many examples of people who become successful and build profile overnight because something happens. Um, and you know I'm really invested in your journey, and I care a lot about you guys doing well and and, you know, I've— the coffee thing in the 7-Eleven, and, you know, I see you trying lots of different things. And the thing that you're doing really, really well is the work and the consistent work. It takes commitment and resilience to get up every single day and go out there and do stuff, you know. Like, there has to be thoughtfulness. You've had to invest the money, you've had to, you know, build the studio, you have to be good enough and interesting enough that people actually want to come and have a conversation with you and give their time, you know. So there's a whole lot of stuff that sits around it, but it's the being prepared to do the work that I really admire about what you're doing. You know, it's 7 days a week, right?

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And that is a conversation that I have with people a lot. You know, people will say, oh, I'd love to write a book. And I'd go, okay, so do you have this much money and do you have you know, 9 to 12 weeks where you can sit down every single day and write. Oh, you know, or we, you know, we want to have an amazing body. Well, are you prepared to stop drinking alcohol for a period of time and actually consistently change how you think about exercise? And well, maybe next year I'm prepared to do that, you know. So you guys get up every day and do your thing. And I want to recognise that. Thank you. That's a big contributor.

Josh: It's interesting because it doesn't, um, because you know that consistency is what you need to do. I think the interesting thing that we're discovering, it, it's still not necessarily the answer. Like, there's a bunch of things, but you just still need to keep doing it. Yeah, it's like, um, I think that we said like, oh, once we get to 100 eps, 200 eps, 300 eps, 400 eps, 500 eps, all these things will happen. And I guess that it's beyond the consistency, it's the learning of the detachment of outcome. Like, we believe in what we're what we're doing. We believe in the mission.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And we can only— we believe the same thing around consistency, and so we can only execute on our beliefs.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: With the hope that it resonates with other people.

Lisa: And, and being, you know, really aware of what success will mean for you, you know, in terms of how many people you have listening and following. And, you know, it counts that you're having a good time, you know.

Tommy: Well, I think we've used that as the metric more so than anything.

Lisa: Do you know, when I hear people talk about you guys, I'm actually having my front yard paved at the moment. And I told the guys I was coming to chat with you and they were like, oh, Tommy and Josh, oh, we listen to them.

Josh: What?

Lisa: And I was like, oh my God, people actually listen to you. I couldn't believe it.

Josh: We were walking down the street. Yeah, well, you had someone say, love your podcast. It wasn't a heckle, it was a compliment. But it did catch me off guard. But it is very, very nice. Do you get negativity?

Lisa: Because you're, I mean, you're so approachable and warm and there's not a lot of judgement that you do on the show.

Josh: Probably like misunderstanding. I mean, the thing is that like we're negative internally about the shit that sometimes we say or do. And so it makes sense that other people feel the same way. The thing that we trigger ourselves in of like the old version of ourselves that we're not proud of. If we have moments like that, it's like, oh, there's going to be people who are way more refined than us. Who see the exact same things that we see. And so I think framing it that way, it makes the negative stuff way more palatable because we sort of empathise and understand where those people are coming from.

Lisa: And also when part of your philosophy, you know, you send a little email out to people before they come and talk to you, which basically says, you know, we don't edit our show.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And I actually think that's pretty rare. It's pretty— unless you're doing live TV or live radio, everything else is pretty sanitized. I think we pretend it's not, but it actually, you know, we're pretty careful about what we say. We're pretty politically correct. And so to have a show that's not edited, I would imagine that there are times when people have a different view, but that's okay, right? Like tension. Tension is actually something we do need in business. Without tension, we don't actually have growth. We don't have conversations. So as long as it's not about deliberately offending someone.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Lisa: Then, you know, that's actually really healthy.

Tommy: So, you know, if you're wanting to be a better communicator, just creating something like this where you can't edit it is powerful because you learn that it's almost like you sort of— your mind's racing fast, but you end up catching up with it to understand, like, to be in time with it so you're not saying shit that you wouldn't really want to say a second later. You're like, uh, and it is confronting, right? Yeah, I think that's the thing.

Josh: Did it give you a little ooh of not having—

Tommy: Yeah, seeing the not edited thing, like, will you use someone?

Lisa: Well, I think I appreciated it. Like, it told me immediately about what your expectations are. And one of the things that's really important for business is setting culture. And culture is not just about your internal people. You know, you guys have very specific culture. Mr. 97 sitting over there and you know, your jumpers. And it's weird, by the way, when my children and I all wear our jumpers.

Tommy: Oh, great.

Lisa: But you need to do an awkward family photo. Yes, that's right. You know, so there's a cultural piece that's really important. And every time you send out, whether it's an email, a calendar invite, you have a phone call with someone, you are creating an experience for that person of your business.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: And so I'm really fascinated by that. So I read the wording in your email quite, quite carefully. It was this morning, but I did read it and, you know, I sort of it made me proud. And I think it's quite courageous because there would be people who wouldn't be prepared to do this. They're not prepared to not sort of have that opportunity for a right of reply and editing. So, but that's part of your brand, right?

Tommy: If we're living in an authentic age, this is the opportunity to be authentic.

Josh: And we've got nothing to lose as well. We don't own anything.

Lisa: So no one can sue you.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. It's like it's for the science.

Tommy: Take everything but don't take voting rights. Money's buying.

Lisa: Don't take Bodhi. And you know, you're right, to free Uber Eats or free delivery, free delivery of your Uber Eats.

Tommy: You can't lose everything, it's a credit card, you can't have a credit card.

Lisa: How cute is your Bodhi, by the way?

Tommy: He's great.

Lisa: He's getting big now.

Tommy: Oh, he's a big boy.

Lisa: I was listening to the podcast where he told you you had bad breath. Is that what it was? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: The truth bombs.

Lisa: Yeah, the truth bombs.

Josh: How do you experience, how do you experience or deal with personal growth and then implementing it within a business. So say if you have an aha moment and you've been running a certain way with a bunch of employees and contractors, yeah, how do you then sit down and realign?

Lisa: Yeah, I love that question because I think there's a simple answer, which is I actually tell people. So I do a lot of speaking and sometimes you smash it and go, look at me go, like totally rocking it, knowing it. And other times you get nothing. And go, oh, just get me out of here immediately. Um, and I will actually tell people— so I have told audiences and said, you know, so I've spent a lot of time in the corporate world, and, um, you know, I'm stepping out, I guess, and wanting to share more of my story, and that's feeling a bit different for me. And so I'm going to be using some different language today, and I'm actually going to be sharing some stuff that I haven't shared before. And people really respond to that. People respond to the humility of, I'm in this with you and I'm trying new things and I'm learning different things. And, you know, I had a public workshop that I did that, you know, I thought would sell out really quickly because clearly I am amazing. And, you know, and it didn't. And you sort of go, oh, what happened there? And I remember putting up an Instagram post saying, so, you know, a lot of my work is with private clients. I've got this idea to do this public workshop. No one actually registered. What's happening? And the, you know, people— that was what actually had people booking. And it, you know, filled literally within an hour because people responded not to the schmick me saying, hey, I've got these strategies I want to share around success. People responded to the truth.

Tommy: I like it because I mean, that's a— it's a reaction or a natural response to something happening. That's very authentic versus using it as a strategy. Yeah, I know you're very strategic. You had a marketing background. I feel like that's probably not coming from a place of like, this is how I'm going to do it. I'm actually just being honest now.

Lisa: Yes.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then it works.

Josh: What's the ask for help thing, right? So in the moment you created this thing and there's like a little bit of embarrassment, but a reflection of like, I read the room wrong.

Lisa: Yes.

Josh: Around what this is.

Lisa: Yes.

Josh: Or I haven't communicated this well. And so the ability to then say, hey, I read the room wrong. How about if I frame it this way?

Lisa: Yeah. And there's a real skill in doing that in the moment as well.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, like, I'm not sure I made a great choice coming on here this morning. No, I'm joking. But, you know, having a— being brave enough and self-aware enough in the moment to say, I don't feel like this is going well. Like, what do I need to do differently? And I do that, you know, with audiences and in workshops. I'll go, the room's really quiet. 'Can I cheque in on what that is? Am I boring or are you just reflecting or what, you know, what's happening?' And people do get that. The other strategy I use is I tell people that they have to laugh at my jokes and I find that works. So you just laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Tell people what your expectations are, you know, and how you're doing.

Josh: We should do that at the start of every show.

Lisa: Yeah. Expectations. Expect to clap loudly and—

Tommy: I mean, we haven't expected people to laugh.

Josh: And then we found people laugh at our show, whether it's at the bits we want them to laugh or at—

Tommy: Yeah, they're laughing at us.

Josh: We weren't planning it.

Tommy: It's bullshit.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: Your book, Read Me First. The— my favourite shop in the world is Milligram in Doncaster. And I always see it there and I'm always like—

Lisa: They do a great job. Yeah.

Josh: I know Lisa.

Lisa: Yeah. Personally, we go way back. Way back, you and I.

Josh: But yeah, it's— you're working on a new book. What's the learnings from doing one to having a second crack?

Lisa: Oh yeah, lots. I actually met with my publisher yesterday, Leslie, who—

Tommy: Shout out to Leslie.

Lisa: Shout out to Leslie. She— her and I were having a conversation about how I really had no idea. Yeah, you know, I had no idea. And actually writing is not kind of something that I've always been particularly good at, or that was part of writing the book was I wanted to do something that would really challenge me and that I would learn some new stuff from. And boy, did I learn some stuff. Like, there's a whole lot of things that, you know, I want to do better and differently starting out, you know, from the very beginning. So for the next one, I'm allowing a lot more time. And I've been working with a researcher because I want to find out and really test my thinking around some of the things that I want to write about. And it's, it's actually really confronting, you know, to write a book because There's this— the book that's out currently has a bit of my personal storey in it. And I had this moment, I remember, before the book launch, Tommy, which you came to, where my work as a coach is about serving others. And so I spend my day listening to what's happening with other people and what's, you know, asking them questions about them and working on their life plan and and then suddenly you kind of have this book that's got all of the stuff that's in your mind and the things that are really important to you, the strategies that you want to share. And it's a bit like putting your soul into some paper. And everyone says, you know, you'll get trolled, you'll get book reviews, you'll have people say really awful things. And, you know, you get all of the positive, amazing stuff as well. But it's been a real ride. It's been a real, a massive learning curve actually.

Josh: What sort of person is trolling a book? Like a book requires like a bunch more effort, right? It feels like, so you do an Instagram post or a tweet, very easy. Takes an extra level of a troll to go to the effort of reading.

Lisa: I've had some interesting ones actually. Yeah. I had, and of course you don't really know who it is. So it was a man's name, but who knows. Who it was, but I had one recently and he went across all of my social media, including LinkedIn, and wrote some really awful things about how women like me shouldn't be allowed to just write books.

Josh: And obviously triggered something. It was like, trigger warning.

Lisa: Could we perhaps have a conversation about that? You know, and I—

Josh: there's—

Lisa: I, in the book, I write about This actually makes me even uncomfortable to even talk about this. Actually, I don't like how this played out, but we can't edit it. We can't edit it. So filterly. No, no, no, not, not filtering. But in the book I write about how I went and lived in Italy for 3 months with my children. And that's actually something I'm really proud of. And I don't mean for that to sound ego-based. It took work and effort and it was something that really mattered to me. So as a mum who'd sort of done divorce and found myself with sole custody of these 3 small children, I very quickly had to establish a business and a career that would sustain the 4 of us and work really, really hard. And one of the goals that I'd set for myself was that I'd always wanted to travel with them and just go and immerse ourselves somewhere, and we chose Italy. Now, I still worked when I was there, you know, because I'm fortunate that I can coach clients from anywhere in the world. We saved, um, It was not particularly expensive, actually, is the truth. Like, if the economy in Italy allows for you to email Airbnbs and hotels— we went in the off-season and, you know, it, it was— it required a plan and it felt kind of brave to go with 3 young children by myself to a non-English speaking country. And I actually— something blew up on social media that started with a particular woman writing about the arrogance of that and how could I possibly understand what it's really like to struggle and to be a woman. And it was really— it was hard.

Tommy: It was almost shaming or guilt around success.

Josh: Yeah, it's also project— but, but also like we don't know, like we had people comment, we had a a friend of ours, Matt Diavella, created a video about our journey and people would say they must be trust fund kids doing like that. How do they have the time and the resources to be able to do it? Which is always rich when you're having conversations around clients and leads and making money and trying to do it. And so like, yeah.

Tommy: And mate, I'd be on a boat in Italy. Like I'd be in the Mediterranean if I was a trust fund kid.

Lisa: That's what you'd be doing.

Josh: Yeah. And so I think that's interesting too, but I guess I guess it's the limiting beliefs of the people that they've put on themselves around what they can do and their ability to be resourceful. I guess it's a, doing things can sometimes trigger in other people what they're not doing.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: Which is uncomfortable.

Lisa: It can be confronting. And, you know, I guess my whole point was that most things are possible if we're prepared to do the work and if we make a plan and it took a couple of years of saving and, you know, all of that. The, the other thing that I've really learned about from being the author of a book is that people actually love to have conversations about what they're working on, on themselves. And people are really fascinated by success, you know. And it's actually this thing that's quite hard to achieve, um, not because it's big, but because we often don't really know. We just don't really know. You know, people can set goals for themselves and get there and go, why don't I feel amazing? Why don't I feel successful? Success is so personal. And, you know, for me, the purpose of writing the book was when you find yourself in a position going, um, so I don't have a home and I've now got these 3 children, and, you know, if I was going to be be brave, if I was going to do what I always really wanted to do, what would that be? And it was creating my consulting business, you know, that's what it was. And so, you know, I'm in this with you guys, you know, we're being entrepreneurial, we're making a lot of compromises to do what we do. Actually, it takes a lot of hard work and there's things that we miss out on, and but there's also so much great stuff, you know, the people that I've met because of the And the learning that I've had, you know, was— it has been a bit unexpected, you know, because people will come and share with me the things that they've most learned about themselves or that they've learned. I'm actually going to do something about— write about this over the next week. And you never know what's going to resonate with people. Like, people will pull something out of the book, a particular question, or that it might not even be top of mind for me. So it's easy.

Josh: I mean, yeah, that I relate to that a lot just based on what we do, which is like we're always surprised at what resonates. Yeah. And so there is a bit of detachment in that, which is like sometimes when a show feels shit, it's people's favourite shows. And so having that in the back of our mind, I guess, allows us to be braver in just having a crack and showing up and doing it.

Lisa: Yeah. Speaking our truth.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, just I think there's something happening in the world at the moment about we're responding to people who speak their truth. And also we are responding to people who want other people to be successful, which is not traditionally Australian culture. Actually, the whole tall poppy and don't get too big for your boots. And, you know, it's really interesting the experience I have when I'm speaking in America compared to Australia. Yeah, is fascinating. You know, like in America, you're expected to talk about how great you are, you know, and you're expected to walk on and, and, you know, be laughing at your own jokes and, you know, which I'm actually good at. I'm high performing at laughing at my own jokes. But I think there is a bit of a shift happening in Australia at the moment where we, we want people to succeed and we're starting to have different conversations with people about that, which fills my heart with joy.

Josh: Actually. How do you feel about the definition of success and how does that play a part in what you do every day?

Lisa: Yeah, I think what the way I think about this is that there actually isn't a definition. You know, like if you Google or search, you know, what success means, there's a whole lot of standard things that will come up. My version of success could be fitting in, you know, a 15-minute walk each morning and yours is running a marathon clearly in your shorty shorts, you know, And success can be about knowing I can pay my bills and that my children have got what they need, or it might be something that's really different to that. You know, success is being able to go on that type of holiday. And what I know is that success is not about the stuff. You know, I think my prediction, the futurist in me says—

Josh: That's a good title. Yeah, the futurist in me.

Lisa: Maybe that's my next book title. That could be a good book title. Was Leslie listening to that?

Josh: Write it down, Leslie.

Lisa: Yeah, I think what we're going to see is that people are going to get clearer about success being about experiences and the people that we have around us and the learning that we have and the exposure that we have to the world that we live in. It's going to be— we're always going, well, lots of people will always want a nice fancy house and, you know, a car to drive. But I think we're starting to get far more meaningful. Do you guys talk about purpose? Have you talked about purpose lately?

Tommy: Justin Bieber's album.

Josh: That's good.

Tommy: That's exactly what I was referring to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: I think it's funny because it's built in. It's probably one of those things that we don't talk enough about. It feels like it's built in. And that was part of the thing before you got here that we were talking about, which is like, being more deliberate in talking about our purpose, which our purpose is to create connection in a world that is feeling disconnected. And with, uh, the future of work being remote and people not having consistency, we're something that every single day you can listen to. It's a consistent thing, and it's— it means that you're not limited by geography. You're not limited by your situation. You can tune in. I don't think we've necessarily done a great job of externally communicating that's what our purpose is.

Lisa: So what, what would that be in one sentence?

Josh: Uh, yeah, I think it's around, um, uh, creating connection for, you know, the future of work. Like, because I think that that's like, because everyone's got work, everyone need, everyone, uh, because work, people tie in with purpose.

Lisa: Yep.

Josh: And everyone's got on their own mission of things to do.

Lisa: Yep.

Josh: And for us, it's, um, it's also, I guess, the other thing around, uh, you know, we talk about the over-optimization that we're all doing. And so there's a lot of podcasts that are strictly optimize, optimize, and then you have entertainment. And I guess what we're saying is that friendship, sometimes you laugh, sometimes you cry, sometimes you're serious, you know, sometimes you just want to relax. And so we're trying to give people that whole scope of connection.

Lisa: Awesome.

Josh: Rather than I know if I'm listening to these guys, it's going to be about optimize, optimize, optimize. So I mean, yeah, we need to dial in our one sentence.

Tommy: In the early days, it was our purpose was to scale our friendship, which sounds quite tech terms, entrepreneurial view on friendship. But it's like, how do we take this and how do we share it with the world?

Lisa: Yeah.

Tommy: And so the purpose was that. And then, you know, I think being able to articulate how, you know, that what you just did, Josh, has come a lot of episodes in.

Lisa: Yeah. But it was still evolving, I think, by the sounds of it. And that was beautiful to listen to, by the way. Like, It's— I think the word purpose, I don't know, we might need to find something else. Like, it's kind of— it's a bit of a wanky word, but, but the meaning is important, you know, and why we get up to do what we do. And the way that you talk about creating connection with people in a world that's actually pretty disconnected, you know, that's— there's, there's a need for that. There is a need for that. And doing it with the warmth in which you do it is awesome. But I think there's— this is a good, a good trigger, hopefully, for everyone to kind of think about what is it that I get up in the morning to do? And that's not about necessarily about others, but what is it that feeds my soul? What's going to drive me? What's going to make me want to do this even when it's really hard? Because there must be days where you go, I've got nothing. I've actually got nothing. I'm kind of tired, you know, and days where you're not feeling well or, you know, Bodhi's been awake during the night or you had too much wine or too many lollies or, you know.

Tommy: That's the guy he is.

Lisa: Yes. Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Lisa: So, you know, that happens. So what is it that's going to sustain me when it's hard? Well, I'm going to think about the connection and that there's people out there who are waiting to hear that today.

Josh: I guess that's the same thing of like whether it's like going to the gym, like all these things aren't easy. But then when you're in it, like when we're in it, the momentum or the feeling we can change, like actually showing up, turning on the microphone, we can change. I guess it's almost like a meditation in some ways. Shit can be all happening or whatever, but we can express, have some fun. There is a level of— it's this balance between authenticity and performance. And we are doing a performance as well in regards to like a friendship. What does my friend need right now? And we're performing in that way.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And so I guess the great thing is the consistency is that that thing doesn't change in regards to what the audience needs. I guess it's probably similar to being a parent. You can have shit happening and all that sort of thing, but you have to perform as a parent whether, you know, Businesses. Yeah. Regardless of anything.

Lisa: Yeah. I find that, you know, when I'm coaching, there's, there's times when, you know, you're tired and it takes an extraordinary amount of energy to be present, doesn't it? You know, like whilst we're having a good time, are we having a good time? Oh, good time. Whilst we're having a good time and, you know, it's, it's a great conversation. It takes energy to be present. And when we're mostly running on empty and lots of people are feeling tired and also we're getting into the end of the year. That can feel harder. And so how do we get our energy back? Like, how do we refuel? And so I love what you're saying about, you know, just turning on the mic. And, you know, when I turn up and I'm with that coaching client and we're sitting in the room, there is a formula, you know, there is a purpose. And once you get started, it's a privilege, right? It's a privilege to do the stuff that we get to do.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think The personal privilege of that. You've been sold. No, no, I'm saying the personal benefit is that I actually sometimes I feel so much better once we've done the show, as in like it's brought an energy. And so that's a selfish privilege. But then I know that that also on the other side can help somebody.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Someone can enjoy the conversation. Someone might have been feeling like me and then they listen. They got distracted from the thing that they've been worrying about. They're like, ah, I don't even care anymore about that.

Josh: Yeah, it's also like resistance in life. Like, I feel like there's constant resistance. Like, I think about like doing the washing. I always feel good when I've done the washing, but the resistance of doing the washing is hilarious. It's really helpful. Yeah, because I'm like, well, I'm like, I've put the final sock on the clothes hanger or whatever. I might— of the, um, what's a clothes horse? That's what they call it. I use it every day, so I— but I don't know the terms But yeah, it's those things. So you push back, like I'm sort of leaning into that more, which is like, I actually feel good. Like for some of these resistances, we don't even test. We don't even like, why am I resisting this? This is easy. It's like admin. I'm constantly like putting off admin things. And then it's like, yeah. But then the thing is that like clearing your inbox actually feels good.

Lisa: It was great.

Josh: And so it's almost like trying to work out what to do with the resistance.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And is the resistance serving us?

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And why are we— why does it— yeah, if we do—

Tommy: if our strengths are the things we gravitate to do, is it— so the weaknesses are the areas that offer up resistance? I mean, is it— how good can you be putting clothes on a clothesline? Yeah, you're just talking about shit you should be doing.

Josh: Well, it's almost like the reframe. I guess I guess that like in the hyper-optimized world that we're in, you can easily create a narrative around like, my mission is way bigger than doing the sock, putting the socks on. Like that's not gonna serve, but it's actually is important as the stillness. It's the like the small things that are just like, they're the centering things.

Lisa: Just being organised and feeling like life is in hand, you know, 'cause sometimes life can feel like a strategic operation. But, you know, you've just kind of triggered this thought for me about what we do with our time, you know, like where we put it. Sometimes we'll get calls from people to say, you know, could you come and speak to our people about time management? And I go in the same tone, you can't actually manage time. There's 24 hours in the day. And so one of the things that I wrote about and that I also talk about is, you know, for everything that we say yes to, we're saying no to something else. So how consciously are you planning what you do with your time? And actually, what— doing the washing and the folding and, and the stuff that has to be done is important, right? But when we say— and I think this feeds into the business stuff that we were talking about earlier— that we say yes to a lot of stuff that's not aligned with our purpose, or that makes us busier than we need to be, or doesn't allow the stillness that we need. So when we say, you know, yes to that extra meeting, we're actually saying no to exercise. You know, so being really aware of what we do say yes to. Say yes to folding the socks.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't fold them. I definitely don't fold them. Well, I just put them sort of in there. I actually have done a mass chuck out of socks that there was a certain one that I thought were good, but they're actually—

Lisa: Oh, did you buy in bulk?

Josh: Yeah, they're like the non-cut.

Lisa: That's annoying.

Josh: Yeah. Mr. 97 buys buys them from eBay. He gets bamboo socks.

Lisa: Bamboo socks.

Tommy: He can't work out if it's the socks or his shoes that's making him sweat.

Josh: I think it might be the shoes. I reckon it's the socks. I think that if you—

Lisa: No, because bamboo, it doesn't—

Josh: From eBay, we actually don't know if it's bamboo.

Tommy: It could actually be something else. The company's called Bamboo.

Josh: Yeah, well, that counts.

Tommy: Totally counts. B-A-M-B-U.

Josh: One day bamboo.

Lisa: When they make enough money, it's cheap. It's meant to wick away the sweat, isn't it?

Josh: Yeah, it's meant to be like antibacterial and antifungal.

Lisa: Did you know you can get bamboo undies as well?

Tommy: I did see that. T-shirts are lovely.

Josh: I've got merino wool.

Lisa: Yeah, they feel nice.

Josh: Do you get into merino?

Lisa: I don't mind a bit of merino.

Josh: I feel like going to New Zealand, you should get into the merino.

Lisa: Actually, that's a good thought. I could bring you back a little bit of merino.

Josh: I hope you get it. Just actual wool. Just a sheep.

Lisa: Just gonna bring it back for you.

Tommy: Thank you, Lisa, for choosing your time.

Lisa: Are we gonna end on bamboo undies?

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: That's how we roll. Do you have any other thoughts, O7, on how to end it?

Tommy: Oh, did you find out facts about the armadillo?

Josh: Well, so the armadillo, it's not intelligent.

Tommy: It's not smart. It's really determined.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: That's me. Intelligent, determined.

Josh: They can live up to 20 years in captivity or 10 years in the wild. So you could do 10. So wait, 20 years in captivity.

Lisa: I think we're in the wild here.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I think I could live longer in captivity, to be honest.

Tommy: Like if I had everything done for me in the zoo.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, the other— I never thought about that. That's what they're talking about. I straight away went to jail. Seriously, I wasn't— I didn't connect it. I was like, who is holding an armadillo captive? That's what zoos are really, aren't they?

Tommy: They're jails.

Josh: Never thought about that.

Tommy: Yeah.

Lisa: You're so special, aren't you? You're very special.

Josh: The other cool thing is they've got a— there's one type of armadillo that's got a defensive mechanism. And so, when it's attacked, it'll jump. 3 feet in the air.

Lisa: Really?

Josh: Yeah. Can you find a YouTube video?

Lisa: He's your spirit animal. He's actually your spirit animal.

Tommy: They call me armadillo.

Josh: We need to find an animal for everyone. What do we think Mr. 97's animal is? Little koala.

Lisa: Little koala. Yeah.

Tommy: No, no, no.

Lisa: I don't know that he liked you calling him a koala. He didn't look very impressed by that.

Josh: What would you go, 97?

Tommy: Um.

Josh: I don't know, maybe dolphin. I was thinking dolphin. Really? Yeah, they're horny as well.

Tommy: Smart and horny. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: Oh, he's actually blushing. Look what you did to him.

Josh: Whenever he finds me funny, he blushes, which is very good.

Lisa: Is that what you tell yourself? Is that what you tell yourself?

Tommy: But he—

Josh: you actually need a Miss Nice Guy. 97 for the laughing thing. Like when I, yeah, if I make any joke and it's subtle, I look at 97 because he gets it. He knows what's up.

Lisa: Anyway. Or is he just trying to pull it off for you?

Tommy: That's all right.

Lisa: That's his job.

Josh: Either way. Well, enjoy your trip to New Zealand. You can actually take some time to relax.

Lisa: And good luck, you guys. And thanks for having me. That was super fun.

Josh: Nice to see you. I'm looking forward to getting you back when, like a new book is a good excuse just to deconstruct the whole thing.

Lisa: Yeah, that's why we might do something else before then.

Josh: Okay, let's do it.

Lisa: I'd like to hear about, you know, Mr. 97's bamboo undies.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: Talk about New Zealand.

Tommy: And we're always happy to hear what the tradies at your house are saying about us.

Josh: Oh yeah, which is nice too. What sort of trade are they?

Lisa: Pavers.

Josh: Pavers?

Lisa: Right down the pavement.

Josh: Like concrete stuff as well?

Lisa: Pavers, leveling.

Josh: Big in the construction industry.

Lisa: It's actually quite complicated.

Josh: To do that?

Lisa: Shaping and cutting and leveling.

Josh: Is it a driveway or what's the?

Lisa: It's a little courtyard.

Josh: Oh, that's nice.

Lisa: Yeah, it's going to be good.

Josh: You're going to have barbecues and stuff?

Lisa: Yeah, I might invite you.

Josh: Okay, that'd be nice. Might.

Tommy: Probably won't.

Josh: Yeah, no, I get it.

Tommy: Maybe.

Lisa: There was not much commitment.

Josh: This is the best part about recording a podcast. Like you have all these things. I'm cutting up everyone's invitations they've given to me over the years.

Lisa: Yeah.

Josh: And I'll put it together as a montage. Anyway, hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address.

Tommy: One more thing. If you're listening, Gemma Watts.

Josh: Oh yeah, Gemma Watts.

Lisa: It's her birthday.

Josh: Oh yeah, it's Gemma's birthday.

Tommy: Would you say happy birthday, Gemma?

Josh: I sent her a text message.

Tommy: Did you? She listens to the podcast. Happy birthday, Gem.

Josh: Also, if you need video production, we do that. And so send us an email and we can help you. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. Why don't you just— Is that sell too hard?

Tommy: That was all right. Lisa, what do you think?

Lisa: I love that.

Josh: Why not? Yeah, that's what we're trying to do at the end of each one. But we're getting used to the ask. So if you're—

Tommy: yeah, well, if you enjoy the show, we want to keep doing it.

Lisa: It's totally appropriate to ask people for their business.

Josh: And so we do like video production for— I think we specialise in the human-centered stuff, celebrating people in motion form, also known as video. All right. See you guys. Have a good one.

Tommy: See you tomorrow.

Lisa: See ya.