Creating Space With Stacey June

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show. It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 529, and we've got Stacey June back on the show. Hi guys.

Stacey: Hi, hi, hi.

Tommy: You've brought an addition with you. You're quite pregnant.

Stacey: I'm so pregnant.

Tommy: I love that point where it's just a little cuddle and you feel it on your belly between the cuddle.

Stacey: You might love it.

Tommy: Well, it just brings me back.

Stacey: It's a—

Tommy: I mean, I instantly want to go for the touch.

Stacey: You can. May I? I know you.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Oh yeah. Wow. It's amazing how hard it is.

Josh: Oh, can I just rub off too, please?

Tommy: Thank you.

Josh: Oh, it's, it's so hard.

Stacey: It's so— press in.

Josh: I don't want to hurt.

Tommy: You're not going to hurt the baby.

Josh: Where was your belly button?

Stacey: Oh, here.

Tommy: It's still there, mate.

Stacey: I wish I could show people.

Tommy: Is it popped out?

Stacey: It's— oh, I've got jocks on.

Josh: Should I?

Stacey: I don't mind.

Josh: Livestream.

Tommy: Josh's hand is still on her belly.

Josh: It's very warm, isn't it? I guess it's got it like it's doing stuff.

Stacey: Yeah, I've known you guys for a long time.

Josh: I'm not—

Stacey: okay, I've got an underlace, like, so I'll hopefully try and show you this way. See how it's kind of— no, you can't see it.

Josh: Is it raised?

Stacey: See that?

Tommy: Oh yeah, yeah, I can see it's a little bit out.

Stacey: It's very weird because I've always had this, uh, not like in belly button, and I've got a video actually of the day I discovered it had popped out, and that is by far the most extreme crazy thing I've dealt with in my pregnancy.

Josh: You have a belly button.

Stacey: Yeah, for 35 years you've got the same thing, and then all of a sudden your skin is pushed out of your stomach and it looks completely different. It was such a headf— I couldn't get over it. And that I've grown a human and it still hasn't surprised me as much as the belly button did.

Josh: Belly buttons are weird.

Stacey: Remember kids?

Tommy: Primary school, there's a few kids I remember that had outies. So little— I haven't seen it. My brother had one as an adult. I haven't seen an adult with an outie.

Stacey: Why do you think we're all so awkward about them too? Outie, innie. It's like not a dirty word, but no one wants to talk about it that much.

Josh: I'm glad we're covering, you know, you're thinking but aren't saying, you know.

Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: No, but the, um, uh, my brother had an outie and they, they're more likely to turn into hernias. And so, uh, yeah, you know, like there was a time where I'd feel it And it was actually his, I was gonna say esophagus, definitely not esophagus. It's his, you know, the things that you have that fucking your food goes through. What's that called?

Stacey: Your colon.

Josh: Yeah, the other thing.

Tommy: Intestine.

Josh: Intestine. Yeah, you can actually feel the intestines and stuff.

Tommy: Stace, I know you've shared your journey along the way to where you are with your pregnancy. Is there anything you've learned? 'Cause I could imagine you did a lot of research into what it's like to have a baby and the journey. Anything that you just outside of the belly button that you're like, holy shit.

Stacey: Yeah, I think there's a real, there's a real sad narrative that's going on with birth that I think has been a big eye-opener for me. I, you know, that it's like people go to hospital. I don't know. I just didn't realise there were so many great options other than the ones that you think are the options sitting outside being a non-pregnant person or a non-person that can be pregnant. And I think that has been really refreshing, and I found that really interesting. I'm actually quite intrigued to see if that's something I end up, you know, being really interested in after. Depends on how my birth goes, I guess. But just the fact that there's a real— well, there's a real medical essence to what we know for birth, whereas what I've understood now is that unless it needs to go to medical intervention, it isn't really a medical procedure. And I didn't really think of it like that, even being the hippie that I am. Until you're faced with it, you're not researching this crap.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, until the kid's head's the size of a football and it can't get out.

Stacey: Exactly.

Tommy: Like that kind of stuff. I mean, we're so, so lucky. Like, the reason we have the population we do is because of childbirth being something that people don't die from necessarily, like what it was once. Like Amy and that I mean, that was traumatic for her. But what was an interesting one is going to hospital, where you associate it with sickness, and it's this really lovely thing. So it is a shift of being in a place that's usually—

Stacey: which they say can really change the progress of your labour too. So you, you're kind of thinking about when are we going to go to hospital, how are we going to get there, when are we going to, when should we call the hospital, when should we— and that kind of process a lot of the time will actually elongate the labor. So as you can probably tell, I'm planning for a home birth because I I just, it's not because I want to be anti-hospital or, you know, it's not one or the other. But for me, it's like, if I don't need to go there, then I won't go there. If I need to go there, I'll go there.

Josh: What's the everyday carry of someone who's planning on giving birth at home? Like, what do you have to have? I guess you need like fucking tarps and things. Like a to-do list.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. At home.

Josh: Yeah.

Stacey: We've got the pool. That's Ben's job, my husband's job.

Josh: Like just a blow-up pool?

Stacey: Well, it's a birth pool. I don't know, actually.

Josh: Do you reckon it's just marketing?

Stacey: Oh, it's like Clark's rubber, but actually just says birth pool and they've chucked a couple extra hunge on there.

Tommy: What do you call it? Like a royalty-free image of a baby. Just slap it on Photoshop.

Josh: Anyway, so you got the baby pool. So you're only going to use that one. I guess you just—

Stacey: all the midwives will bring one. We're waiting to see about that, but I don't want to rely on anyone else. I'm very much, let's just get the things we want because this is— I'm— it's drug-free, right? So these things are not a joke. You need anything you can to try and help you get through it. Yeah, tarps to some degree, like just as if you're painting, just go to Bunnings and get the painting ones.

Tommy: Bunnings should release a range of—

Josh: looking for a home birth?

Tommy: We got you covered, aisle 6.

Stacey: They could make a bit of extra cash because I'm sure painting drop sheets aren't that expensive, but home birth drop sheets.

Tommy: Yeah, that's a different—

Josh: have you worked out in the house where are you going to have the setup?

Stacey: Well, we're moving the kitchen table out And we're putting the pool there in place of the kitchen table. Tiny Steps is just looking at me. Is there a point? He's like, whoa.

Josh: So if you're like, say if you're 2 days out from your due date, do you move the table and get the pool set up?

Stacey: Yeah, I think where we're going away at like ridiculous, like 38, 39 weeks, we're heading about an hour north to go away with some mates. I just don't see the point of sitting at home waiting when we can sit by a pool with some friends cooking for you. And a barbecue. And then if we feel like where things are on, we'll drive home. So we'll have everything set up before we leave for the holiday. How long is that drive? About an hour.

Tommy: So there is a 10-minute drive. Josh called. Josh called. We were on the phone when Amy's waters broke.

Stacey: Yeah, right.

Tommy: And then it didn't happen until the next morning.

Stacey: Yeah, it takes a little bit. Yeah. But did she have any pain before the water breaking? Even like some kind of semi-contracture?

Josh: Yeah.

Stacey: So you start to get signs.

Tommy: But they weren't clear enough and not everyone's waters break and it happens like that. So it's all different. Stephen Walter, who was on radio when we were in Shepparton, Wally, he gave birth. His wife gave birth in the driveway.

Stacey: Oh, I remember this story.

Tommy: He delivered the baby. It's like, and it was so quick.

Stacey: It wouldn't have been her first though. No, I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got, you got to programme your body to get it, get it out. I don't, I don't think it's, I think, think about it for your first child.

Josh: It's not just Yeah, like a pimple. You know, people don't just pop, right? You've got to squeeze.

Stacey: Exactly like that. Exactly like that. It's exactly like that.

Josh: That's probably closer to a blind pimple, if anything, right?

Tommy: Sometimes you don't know when it's going to come.

Josh: Yeah, and then there's no head on it. Um, and so have you watched a little bit much? Have you watched like a bunch of content? Like, have you sort of skewed all of your Instagram and stuff?

Stacey: It's such low res, it's shocking. Like, you know, like they could really up the market. But yeah, I've watched a heap of home births because you don't really have— it's like old school, right? Like where before the internet was so crazy, you'd be looking for content. And when people talk about the internet wasn't there, and so I had to get books and whatever. Home birth's still a bit like that. Like you have to dig hard, and it's YouTube mainly that you can find stuff. And it's a lot of it is random. You've got to find some stuff that looks relatively legit.

Tommy: I've watched birthing water birth videos on YouTube.

Josh: What does that do to your YouTube recommendations? You just end up getting heaps of them.

Tommy: Yeah, I can't remember.

Stacey: Then you'll get like 10 products that we should buy.

Josh: Yeah.

Stacey: You know, like baby onesies for you. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. Baby drop sheets.

Josh: And so have you thought about creating content around your home birth to help the people who don't have that content?

Stacey: Of course I have. And it's disgusting and fucked. But yes, of course I have. This is— I'm really in a messed up place with all this at the moment. As I move into having another human, that does not choose to have content. It's tricky. I'm really— I'm struggling at the moment. But no, we're not. We'll have a friend that will film and video it or film and take photos, I mean. And then we'll decide later if anyone ever sees it. But I want to have it first and foremost. I'll only ever film stuff initially because I'd like to have it for me. But then it's there.

Josh: Are you someone that likes listening back? Like if you do a podcast or whatever, can you listen back to yourself and be pretty okay about that experience?

Stacey: That's, that's so much more. It's still separate. I said that's still work, I feel. So I don't listen back to my podcasts.

Josh: Yeah.

Stacey: And if I do, it will be from a technical perspective. So I'll be in the car and I just want to make sure the mics are right, that, you know, integration into ads and stuff's okay, which my husband's editing at the moment. So it's basically an air cheque to him.

Tommy: Checking whether he's fucked it up. It's a bit late by the time. Are you listening back to the actual podcast going out to the world?

Stacey: Yeah, well, no, and so not really, no, I never really have, to be honest. We did start to do that.

Tommy: You just got shivers based on the cheques that we used to have.

Stacey: I just kind of feel like it'll drop. It's meant to get to who it's meant to get to now. But with The Thinker Girls, I did start listening and we kind of took on a bit more of a producer hat when we would have younger producers or people we wanted to train because it was an investment in them, not so much our show. So we'd try and find ways to train them. Them to be able to know the right edits and stuff. So we did it for that reason, but I've never listened back to kind of— if anything, if I do it through technical reasons, I'll listen to my energy levels.

Josh: So what's the environment? So if you're watching back your birthing video, what's like the environment? Is it like on a Sunday night? Is it like watching back a wedding?

Tommy: I've got one. I've got— I filmed.

Stacey: What did you do? What do you do with it?

Tommy: Nothing. I've just watched it, um, I've skimmed through it. It's a bit too much for me.

Stacey: Yeah.

Tommy: Like unless I haven't edited it together, I've just got like the bit, like I— there's some full-on moments of like the full placenta coming out.

Stacey: And you were filming?

Tommy: I got that.

Stacey: Yeah, right.

Tommy: I just, I just had my camera in my hand and so I was just trying to not be a freak.

Josh: Portrait or landscape? Insta story?

Stacey: If you don't know what you're doing with it, you've got to go landscape. I'm sorry, Instagram, but it's got to be the way. I'm sorry.

Tommy: I have it for the 55-inch TV.

Stacey: The portrait kills you, doesn't it? Like, what about my archives?

Tommy: It's true.

Josh: It's definitely limiting.

Stacey: I'm going to get shadowbanned now. That's on my mind lately. This is why I don't have a great relationship with social media at the moment. And I'm constantly wondering if I'm getting shadowbanned or I just don't know.

Josh: I only found out like 2 weeks ago what shadowbanned is. Do you know what it is?

Tommy: What's the meaning? Well, I think they do it without telling you based on the content.

Josh: Pretty much. If you search for something like someone's like, oh, I tried to search myself and I have to type in the full name before it comes up. And that's apparently like shadow banning. So they're reducing the amount of people that can see it.

Tommy: So why are you saying that, Stacey? Have you seen a drastic change in something or is it?

Stacey: Yeah, I do feel like I feel like I'm a bit stuck. I feel like as I've gone through this transition of changing from, I guess, this kind of millennial girl that doesn't have any idea what she's doing as a brand essentially from my, from the Thinker Girls and the content I used to create to now navigating kind of motherhood and also being a bit more aggressive with my self-help stuff and just swear words and just really, I don't have anyone to answer to like I did when I was on air. So I have found that there's just, there's no activity. It kind of goes up, down, up, like it just is very stagnant. And not that I'm kind of at a point where I think, oh, I should be should be growing or should be decreasing. But there's something in it that feels like there's a block.

Tommy: Well, what's the shift in going from what the style of content you were doing to this? Is there a— you could say it's not for everyone. So you are seeing who is sticking around. What's your understanding of that transition as a brand?

Stacey: I've never, I've never been a person to look at my stats, which is not a great thing, to be honest. But I think I have started to notice things because I've changed. So my audience is changing and a lot of my audience are probably not signing up for the new stuff, but then I'm finding new people come. So it's just a bit of a— it's been a bit of a headfuck actually to not be too consumed by it because as I said, I've always been, what, 6, 7 years creating content with absolutely no intention behind doing it for other people. It's always been driven by what I wanted to put out there. But now, I don't know, I do think a little bit more about the content I put out there. I do think about, will this help someone or is this worthwhile? Or is this— because I think we're flooded by so much now that I want the things to put out there to not be so, I don't know, without conscious thought. You know, I was really just— I shot everything out. But now that means that the conscious thought of the content has always brought— also brought conscious thought of who's consuming it. Do you like it? Do you not like it? It's brought this other headspace that I'm not quite used to, to be honest.

Josh: Is there a sensitivity? Because I guess like when you're like having troubles conceiving and all that sort of thing versus actually being pregnant, how did you sort of deal with the change in the audience or the sensitivities around that?

Stacey: I know that my followers went down dramatically with how much I spoke about miscarriage and trying to fall pregnant. That was, that's just standard. And I, again, I hate to even talk about followers because it's never something I've really paid much attention to, but it was so obvious. Even my partner would be like, Jesus, after that video you could see the numbers go down. And so that's really— it's hard to get your head around when you know that you're also getting private messages of people that it's totally helping, you know. And so, um, yeah, I guess I just have continued to go within and just continue to push through that stuff and just do the content that I feel is important.

Tommy: Do you think there's a difference in the type of follower, uh, or person that follows someone like you when you're in the mainstream media versus niche-specific? Like, is there a difference?

Stacey: I think it's starting to. Yeah, I think there's definitely more kind of self-help space. Lots of coaches and people that are interested in self-development are kind of bubbling around. But because my— I've never— and this has been a thing for me forever— I've never fitted into a box. So as much as I might be now a coach and do a lot more self- self-care stuff. I don't fit into that. I don't have my yoga mat out taking photos from the top saying mantras and things like— there's parts of me that will put things up that are my version of that, but it's not as easy to box me into a hippie that is going to Wanderlust and talking, you know what I mean? So it still is, but then to some degree I think I still get a lot of the commercial radio audience that are looking to you know, speak, hear from someone that wants to talk about meditation that's not too woo-woo. So it's, it's a bit of both, which is kind of what I think is where I'm at myself personally, which is interesting.

Josh: How do you reconcile the sort of the judgement that can come with parenting and being pregnant in regards to the content that you create and how you dish it?

Stacey: It's already pretty fucked up. Even interestingly, I've, you know, you know, the followers that you've had for a long time And even a lot of the people that I think would never really offer or give you advice or kind of push their agenda on you that have followed content that I've done for years, as soon as you enter into a motherhood conversation, will give it to you. And I've written back to one girl once and I said, I think I recognise you. Like, you followed my content, supported me for a long time. Why is it now, since I'm talking about my future child, that gives you the idea that I want your advice and didn't want your advice when I was a single girl? Like, what? How is that different for you to think that you've got some rights? And obviously it is. She unfollowed. She unfollowed back. She followed back about a week later. I don't know. I think there's this real— I haven't cracked into it yet. I'm not sure. I do definitely— I've definitely started to see what everybody talks about with this, this motherhood thing. I think a lot of it is that a lot of the conversation, particularly for the first 6 to 12 months, is very private and personal. So then when people have the opportunity to speak, maybe 2 or 3 years on, they speak loudly. I think that's one of them. And I think the other idea is that we have this kind of real warped idea of the way motherhood and mums should be. I think it's still a bit patriarchal, to be honest, but I don't think it's the blokes pushing the agenda. I think it's the chicks. This is the way you be a mum. We were told this years ago by people that weren't mums, blokes mainly. And now it's blokes that have let go of that idea, and it's the women that are still pushing it, which I've found really confronting, to be honest.

Josh: It feels like there's a narrative now that like the first few years of someone's life is so important to their future happiness, well-being. Do you think that that puts an extreme amount of pressure to have everything perfect in those first few years?

Stacey: I think that's being generous to the people critiquing me, to be honest, because I think you're right, it's the first 3 years that really, um, I've done a lot of research into this for my own mental health and anxiety, because they say that a lot of your anxiety can stem from the first 3 years of your life, what your environment was, what was going on.

Josh: First 3 years of radio.

Stacey: Yeah, maybe. But I don't think the people that are commenting are probably even aware of that. So I don't think that's their intent, their kind of driver to judge. But I wish it was because that would come from a better place, I suppose.

Josh: So how do you not freak out in regards to like, you know, you have your kid that first 3 years. I saw a parent talking about no negative, no negativity in that first 3 years. So it's like, we don't want any, any, what do they say?

Tommy: Antagonists.

Josh: No, yeah, no, no storeys with antagonists like characters in any storyline. And they fast forward through a bunch of content like that their kids seeing. That seems like quite stressful because then all of a sudden, if you accidentally show the wrong scene in Lion King, you're like, like they're fucked for life. How do you— where do you sit amongst it all?

Stacey: My biggest lessons are from the hardships in my life. So it would be crazy to try and sculpt a person that is purely based on positive experiences. It's just not the kind of person I want to raise. Yeah. Um, you know, I don't think I need to shove everything that I experienced in my kids' way. Jay-Z speaks about this and I love it. On the David Letterman interview, he talks— they say, how do you try and get your kids to learn the lessons you did? You were selling drugs on the street. Trying to figure out how to make ends meet, and now you're Beyoncé and Jay-Z and you've got kids. And he was like, I don't. And it was really a moment for me, not that I compare myself to Jay-Z, but he just was saying, you know, you don't— your kids don't need to repeat to learn the lessons that you want them to learn. They don't have to go through the same things you went through. But at the same time, I don't think sugarcoating things and making things perfect is, is a great formula to sculpt a character. Like a real character to me has a bit of grit, has imperfections, you know, characters that I like on television shows that are women that are unlikable, that are like realistic and that, that really are able to land on their feet and not crash to the floor when something doesn't go their way.

Josh: You're creating a future Bachelor contestant, basically.

Tommy: Is it a boy or a girl? Have you released?

Josh: Have you released the content?

Tommy: Have you got a full press release on the—

Stacey: You'll have to speak to my publicist. Yeah, we know, but no one else knows.

Tommy: That's fine.

Stacey: Yeah, that's fine. You've got permission. Yeah, because we, we, no one knows what to say following because you kind of, you go to say, do you know? Okay, I'm cool with that. But it is funny.

Tommy: We had the name, like, I mean, we were so fortunate. I mean, so many people have a tough time like you have getting pregnant. Amy got pregnant. We were talking about it at our wedding and that was 6 weeks.

Stacey: That was a surprise. You guys are pretty shocked.

Tommy: Oh, I think we were just shook and needing help.

Josh: I remember.

Tommy: Yeah, that's happening. But then we knew it was a boy and we called him Bodhi, and so we had the name. I don't know, it's— everyone's on their own journey. But I think I definitely, like, it is so— the emotive response behind looking at parenting content, or even being in a scenario where a friend of mine's kid, the mum's a doctor and very pedantic about the kid going on the floor. And like germs. And the one school of thought is, ah, let him toughen up, like get him in the dirt. My dad loves getting Bodhi out into— I mean, he's older now, but he's out touching stuff. And some people just don't have that thinking around the kid being in, you know, dirty environments or being on the floor like here. It's like, you don't know if this is clean. It's definitely not clean, but you don't know. And so I judge that parenting based on mine, not that I vocalise it or say it. I'm just like, like, ah, it's be alright, the house isn't that dirty.

Josh: Well, yeah, I guess you feel the friction when the two kids are in a room trying to converse and play.

Tommy: I also see the anxiety in the parent, like, like picking it, like, no, washing.

Stacey: Well, they're picking that up more than the germs.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, that's what I, that's what I feel about it. It's like the germs, fucking modern medicine would save most things of this kid where we are in Australia. It's very, it's a good place.

Stacey: I feel like where I'm lucky because my partner is pretty different to me. So I think we've got a few bases covered in our house. But it's funny, we went for a picnic on Sunday and I had my godson with me and we were walking to the toilets in the, like, in the park. So they're public toilets and I walked with no shoes on and he follows me and walks with no shoes on. And I thought to myself, oh, he probably like his, his parents would probably put shoes on him. But is that— should I? So I just kept walking. He came with me and then his dad raced down and was like, you've got to put your shoes on, you've got to put your shoes on. And it's interesting that like that's their thing. But at the same time I was thinking, I wonder if that will change for me when, if it's my kid. And then actually my mate ran back with my shoes too. It's like, it's disgusting in there. Opened up and it was floodgates. Like it was pretty funny.

Josh: Yeah. Because you've actually like the walking, the dunny, it's actually getting into the—

Stacey: Yeah, yeah. The dunny just dripping in it.

Josh: Just, it makes you feel funny. Do you take your shoes off when you're on a flight? Flight, a long flight.

Stacey: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Stacey: I would prefer never to wear shoes.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Do you wear like thongs or whatever?

Stacey: I just always have to have my feet out, especially now if I have like runners on all day, like Nike. I've got these Nikes that I put on and I feel like I've just suffocated for the day if I've had them on all day.

Tommy: Did you wear Ugg boots? Were you rocking Uggies?

Stacey: It was Shepparton. It was freezing and there was literally the only person there that I cared about was you. It's like you wore the same thing every day, pretty much the same beanie.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Because you just get into that sort of— it's like, you know, you're in the car, you just like comfy. So you have your thing that just gets you in that comfy spot.

Josh: I reckon I'd eat so much Maccas if I did regional radio, just like getting around, like early morning coffee.

Tommy: I mean, no, we went for coffee after every show. That was our little ritual. And then we got— we started getting like pancakes delivered to the studio.

Stacey: Yeah, we turned it up towards the end. It was fun.

Josh: Do you look at those times in a different light nowadays than when you like were closer to that period?

Stacey: Yes and no. Yeah, I'm very proud that I did it, but I remember when I first moved to Sydney and had landed the job at KISS and saw a naturopath and was quite burnt out. She said that I had adrenal fatigue and I was telling her about my life and it was including all the regional stops because as well, Shepard and I did Cairns and she had adrenal fatigue after all of that. Well, offloaded pretty much. And so then she was saying, but then she actually said further, she goes, it sounds like you could have post-traumatic stress. And I was like, what do you mean? I was just going regional.

Josh: Shit, shit, shit.

Stacey: And she said, It's more just about the— because think about it, many people don't even move house, let alone move cities, let alone move cities 3 times in 2 years. And then, then they're not cities. You move to a country town where you've never lived. So it took me a bit to, I guess, come off that exhaustion of what it did to me mentally, I think. But now that I look back, I think I don't know, I just feel like it's a really good thing that I learned those skills, but also I sacrificed, I guess.

Josh: Is there a way of like self-preserving when you're in the moment? Like looking, like talking to the naturopath, where you're like, oh, in Shepparton I probably should have been doing X, Y, and Z instead of this.

Stacey: I don't know, it's brekkie radio for starters. Everyone will say that's challenging. But then also when you're away from family, friends, from any form of like stability, you're also being challenged all the time by the environment you're in because you're constantly thinking about moving out of that environment. And so everybody around you resents you for that. That's one of the unspoken things about regional is that a lot of people that work in the station are very happy to live there and be there, and that's great. But your constant, your constant drive is to get out of there. So the vibe between you is, is only real to some point. They're not really interested in you being there. You're not really interested in getting too invested.

Tommy: We're all putting on a show. We've got one that goes out. Before they put on a show to us.

Stacey: Yeah, it was a bit like that.

Tommy: Well, because they're always, they're always thinking, oh, these guys will be gone soon. And then so there'll be new.

Stacey: And so that's fair too, to some degree, because we were.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a hard one. And then it's, you know, getting in there. Like, I remember schmoozing everybody, like, because I like being friendly with a whole bunch of people. And I was like, I went around.

Stacey: You do that. You do that very well. And you did that much better than me.

Tommy: Well, I think I did it from the day I was there. I made it a point But they're always— there's everyone's like, I don't know about this guy, but then you're free kebab.

Josh: Like only a year ago.

Stacey: Oh my God.

Tommy: So when I first got to Shepparton, I— there was this woman who was having a party. It was like a hot night. We hadn't even started the show. This is before you. This was Candy days and Candy hadn't even arrived to Shepparton yet. And I went to this woman's house. I was like, ah, I've been invited. I may as well. Be good chance to drink and meet people. But it's so funny. By the end of the night, the most quiet woman who later we know, Jackie. Jackie.

Stacey: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Very quiet around the station. Yeah. So quiet and lovely. Next minute, top off at this party. Everyone's pissed, like in bro. It was so funny.

Josh: Did you know at the time that you were going to be working with her?

Tommy: She worked there. Yeah. So it was like an introduction.

Josh: Well, Jackie, gotcha. '97. I mean, you haven't had any radio experience at all. What stand— what stands out to you in regards to when you hear Stace and Tommy talking about the regional stuff? You have any questions?

Tommy: Imagine baby moving from home. Oh yeah, it sounds, it sounds real full-on. Just you're, you're uplifting your whole life in one spot and moving it to another, and especially like a, a town where you don't know anyone. That's, that's so full-on.

Josh: And then, I mean, like the hours and stuff on top of that, it's crazy.

Tommy: What's the difference in coming to the regional station and then having the opportunity to start at a metro station? Like, is there any— is it the same feeling?

Stacey: I'd worked at a metro station behind the scenes before I'd done regional. Yeah, I was a producer. Beg your pardon. And, and so I was a little bit more familiar with just the bells and whistles and how full on a commercial radio station can be, but also how awesome I felt like it could be. So I don't know, I feel like to some degree because we had a team, the team I was going in with, in Christie, we were friends and so, and we kind of had each other.

Tommy: Yeah.

Stacey: Yeah. So it was pretty awesome if I'm honest.

Tommy: Like, I think people have an illusion that when you level up, you, everything's cool, you know, at that pace, you know, so you, but new roles are, they embody the meeting people, having to win people over or playing a game.

Stacey: But I still felt like it was more honest, you know, so when we're talking about at regional, you kind of don't want to be there. They kind of don't want you there. Everyone needs to be there for a reason. They think, okay, great. And regional is still hard to get into. You know, you think that there are jobs that just come up willy-nilly. They're not. You still need to audition for them. It's still super competitive. And so the best people still get those jobs on air, even in those markets. So you're there even though they kind of don't want you there. So there's all this, you know, animosity essentially. Then you move to metro. Everyone's there because they fucking want to be there. That's the difference. Like, you are there because you choose to be there. And, and I we were working with Karl and Jack's team, essentially the best in the country. So, you know, there wasn't many complaints when we got there.

Josh: It's not a stepping stone like that. But the metro market, you can arrive and be doing it and you've gone.

Stacey: So you say we've got this arc idea, it happens the next day, like, and then it slowly disintegrates into the reality of like any jobs and the shininess wears off and the hard work sets in and you realise how low down the rank you are compared to Kyle and Jack in terms of budgets and ideas and all that stuff. But it's still nothing. You know, I'm still so glad that I had that to compare to because it was— yeah, it was a huge jump, but it was pretty cool at the time.

Tommy: I knew what you wanted when you were in Shepparton because you made it clear about wanting to move and get a metro position. What are you— goal orientated like that?

Stacey: Have you got a destination or have you learned from having a destination arriving and then It's so interesting you ask this question because it's not just radio that I had. Like, it was even to get to Nova, which was my first radio job, it was working in dance music. I've always had that ability to have where I want to be and then kind of put it out there and do the bits, the parts to get there. But at the moment, I feel like the last time that happened for me is the baby. Like, it was really a bit of a trip out because all of a sudden I felt like getting this child was an ambition a bit. It had to be a bit of work because our journey is very different to the average Joe. Um, so I had to put that same energy, and it was— it was because it's still creative energy and it still comes from the same kind of womb. They say that creative projects and babies are all kind of built from there. So it was a bit, and then I got it. And so now I feel like I'm in a little bit of a limbo place, to be honest, which is which is very, very unusual for me.

Tommy: It's all right, you'll be distracted once that baby comes.

Stacey: Yeah, I think I'm giving myself the space, but I've got to say, because I'm not quite that person anymore and I'm not yet a mum, I am— it's been a really interesting period the last kind of 6 months to be sitting in that middle land when I've always got quite a clear goal that I'm aiming for. But I know that when I get that again, and it has to be true, has to be a passion, it has to be something that evokes something honest in me, then I'll, I guess I'll go for it again. But it'll, it'll be different this time. It won't be as strategic or aggressive. I think if it's— I've got a bit of a combo of now understanding that there's good— it's good to have goals where they come from your honesty as opposed to a strategy place. I think with radio, I very much saw myself as an announcer and saw myself as wanting to be on air, and I created a picture for myself. And part of me was, was that person in honesty. But then there were elements of me that I think I hadn't really discovered. So now it's kind of like I know a little bit more of who I am. So the next thing won't be such a strategy. I think it will be more me just being my truest self. Do you think that will get me there? Does that make sense?

Josh: Yeah. Do you think that you fulfilled the full picture that you had in mind for Thinker Girls?

Stacey: Um, Well, no, because I always could go bigger. But yes, at the same time, because we also achieved so much in such a short time. So I think you can always— yeah, should we have got the Broad City Australian version of a television show, which we came very close to getting, or should we have continued on to go on to Drive, or should we— I mean, yeah, sure, those things would have been cool, but then at the same time they were— I really am very really solid and grounded in the fact that they weren't our things. They were our dreams. But where we landed was where we were supposed to land.

Josh: Do you think that from— I guess you're quite early in regards to the podcasting space. How did that shape, do you think, the, the way the, the whole project sort of went versus if you were doing it in 2019?

Stacey: So different. I think, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I remember reading an article of Charlie Pickering of how he spoke about— I think they tried to do a video series on Telstra. Remember before YouTube you could download Telstra technology and it would like download the video. So they tried to do essentially what is now known as a web series. Back before YouTube was even a platform. And I remember him talking about this feeling of having these ideas a step before everyone was ready for them. I feel like that has been me my whole life with The Thinker Girls, with podcasting, even just a teeny bit, a step ahead before. And I know that I'm done with that now. I don't want to be that pioneer or that person that— because that was very— motivated me a lot. So the podcasting industry that hadn't quite taken off was very much a motivator. I was very passionate about it because it wasn't something that had been done. And that kind of conversation, like the Thinker Girls, the things we were talking about were not spoken about. Two Girls, Two Girls wasn't really spoke, you know, it wasn't really done often. So those things really motivated me. They don't motivate me anymore. I don't know. I don't, I don't feel like I need to be the first one to the party.

Tommy: Do you think it's always— do you think it's best to even being the first to the party?

Stacey: Like, is it not best for your pay packet? No, but it is pretty nice for your integrity. Like, to create content before anyone's telling you is it's good and it's good or it's okay. We— the only gauge we ever had to be able to know that we were doing the right thing was our intuition and our audience. We never really had anyone in the industry telling us this was amazing. We never had money being thrown at us like a lot of the girl podcasts are now with brands that we never had any of those opportunities to keep reinstating we were doing something good. We had ourselves and that was it.

Josh: What is the, what's the scepticism that comes with being early? Do you think that you sort of look at it in a different light, potentially seeing the new version of podcasting?

Stacey: I think it's a young person's game. A bit, to be honest. I think you just start, well, for me, I just want different things. I want I want a little bit more stability. I know that I can bring great ideas and content and I guess a creative kind of flair that deserves to be paid for too, you know. So it just— you just change a bit where that stuff didn't— that didn't matter to me as much. It was more about the message and getting it there first and, and kind of the drive of it. I loved that part of it. So that was my currency. So there's no regret. Regrets, but it's not something that I guess fills me up as much as it used to.

Josh: Because we always talk as a team about like where we think the Daily Talk Show is going to be, and it's always way further along than where we are now. Did you have those conversations? Were you always like, this is going to happen? Did it feel like you were going to sort of reach the full potential through the journey?

Stacey: Yeah, yeah. But that comes from me having a really good conversation with my I don't— again, you need to have some other backing that is beyond you. And it's a bit spiritual, but I always had this feeling that there was something a bit bigger than us that was going to take play, that we couldn't necessarily— we tried to map it, but we couldn't necessarily decipher how it was all going to happen. Even before The Night Show, we would have been totally happy with an hour Sunday night show, which was what we were pitching to KISS at the time. And then they came back with a national night show, you know, so even though we were thinking big, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. But I think we knew it would be big. We just didn't, we didn't kind of control, or even though it looked like we controlled a lot of it, we didn't hang too much on to what the end picture would look like. We just felt like we wanted to do content and wanted to do it in a big way.

Tommy: Yeah, people are always trying to work out these things that might not necessarily be known Like building an audience is like, so you, I looked at someone's LinkedIn, they were putting out like, here's the tricks to video, here's the 5 things. I was thinking, I put a lens of scepticism on like, first you go, who, what videos have you created? Or, but then I was thinking about where I have landed some success in creating videos. It's like, I never look, I never thought about it in that step 1, 2, 3, 4.

Stacey: Because I think we, I think we misjudge the bits that are hard. So I think a lot a lot of people would think the hard bit is getting people to see it, actually editing it and doing it, which is a skill set not everybody has. But the hard bit is letting go of the, of the place you want it to land. I don't think— I think that's the hardest bit, is losing the control of how the content will be consumed, where it will go. And I think that is the bit that there's all these underlying parts of things being, you know, underlying discussions that aren't had about success. And a lot of it is about those emotional, you know, control things that we all try and hang on to that I think once you— it's the same as anything that's gone successful. If you let it go to a point, people will tell you at one point I just was over it. Like even for radio, by the time we got Kiss, I was done with radio. We were pitching and talking to Channel V by that point to do television because I was like, fucking so done pitching and knocking on these radio people's doors. I'm out. And then 2 months later we got right, like it It happens like that all the time.

Tommy: When you take something completely off the table, it then somehow appears. Like, I found that in life. I shift my focus. I shifted my focus away from getting into radio to more into the coaching and stuff around the personal training, and then I got a radio thing.

Josh: But it's also, I mean, the frustration around that idea, I feel, is that the— because I feel like I feel that as well, but then there's also times where that doesn't work out. Like, so, like, for instance, financially, like, we think, like, when we 4 months ago we were like, with the daily talk show, it's going to be our full-time thing. We're going to like, let's not focus on this thing. This thing will happen. And then sure enough, you get to November and you're like, oh fuck, we need to get work in. We need to make this shit happen. I guess that it can be. It's so easy for us, I think, as creators to be like, shit is going to happen. It's going to fucking fall into place. But I think it doesn't make it any easier.

Stacey: But I didn't say shit is definitely going to happen. I said the right shit will happen.

Josh: Well, that's what—

Stacey: that's the bit that you have to let go of is the idea that you— the thing you want to get up is the thing that will get up and that you essentially have to be doing enough things to have one thing get up or a very good plan to be able to pay your rent until something gets up. You know what I mean? So it's to be able to have that process or at least the foundation to have you keep trialling some stuff and working and creating. Until it gets to a point where something sticks.

Josh: How much does cash turn into compromise in regards to creativity? Like, how much was there the, okay, we need to make money versus this is the thing we want to do?

Stacey: Mm, not much, but it was more about being able to make sure that you could, and it still is, be able to fund your creativity. Like, you don't want to be going backwards. It got to a point where we're like, okay, I don't want to be going into my own pocket now. And that's when we started to get really creative with events and doing different things to be be able to not own, not to sell out essentially with content or to do jobs we didn't want to do. We just tried to get really crafty with the ways that we could bring in income. And that's still the case, you know, even with— I'd started doing online courses and doing some coaching and stuff this year, which is all still stuff that resonates with me. So in a way, even though it was a different driver, because I was like, okay, I've got this as an offering I can make money from this. I'm going— and that drove me more than this for once. And that didn't mean it was any less authentic, you know? So I just kind of think you can get crafty and you can get really, I don't know, smart about the way that you can then exploit or share your content or what you have to bring, which is what I've learned over the years. It doesn't mean it's a sellout.

Tommy: Yeah, I think it is a friction point. Point for creatives when they're having to be resourceful, trying to work out how to fund the fun or fund the thing that they're doing. Do you think it puts— I mean, some people can't handle that state of having to work out how to make money but also be creative because they, they, in some respects, they're different muscles, right? A good businessman isn't necessarily a creative artist.

Stacey: And also, I think a lot of people that have ego that's, you know, very much filled by the money side of things is it's a really hard industry to be in if you feel like owning a house by a certain age, doing all of these things is something that drives you. But you want to be— you want to have this creative picture and be a DOP, or, you know, you want to do something that takes 10, 15 years for you to get a job or like, you know, have some form of— it's tricky.

Josh: You—

Stacey: it's not only— I think it is what you're saying is right. They're two different muscles, but also a creative has to be also a kind of person, I think, to, to survive long, long term. You need to be a person that doesn't necessarily, I don't know, think of all those things as the main currency of success in your life.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Because there's much better ways to just earn a paycheck and get a house, get a mortgage. Well, yeah.

Josh: Like if you wanted to, like, that's, I guess what we always come back to. It's like, we could always work at a tech company or a radio station and get a producer role and do all that sort of thing. But we want— I guess the hard part is that you spend, you know, like with— in what we're doing, it's been nearly 2 years, and you make it work and all that sort of thing. But then when there's a week or a month where it's like, okay, we're not making budget, when your back is up against a wall, you all of a sudden have to make harder decisions around like, okay, Okay, we said we're not gonna do this thing. Is this actually gonna compromise the overall longer strategy?

Stacey: And you 100% have to relook every bit of the way. And not only that, from a budget perspective, but you change as people. You know, I got pregnant and it's like, okay, I don't wanna, sure, I'm married and I'm in a great position in terms of setting up, we can pay the rent, we can do all those kinds of things 'cause I'm in a relationship. But at the same time, it wasn't just about necessarily money. I wanted to be a contributor to that. I wanted to be as big a contributor as I was. What the plan was when I was on commercial radio. So how do I get back to that point? Not just because I want to earn big cash and drive this certain car, but because I want to contribute to my family, you know. So you do start to have all kinds of different conversations. And just because you enter into the creative world doesn't mean that any one given day you've signed off and never have those thoughts. You know, you have them regularly, which is why it's such a tough, tough gig to take because you have to constantly constantly keep choosing it. It is always a choice. And, you know, that was the bit that I learned over the last couple of years with things really, you know, changing for me and going out and working more on my own. It was very much that I had to keep choosing to do it. And that's, that's tough because you could also just choose, maybe I'm going to become a researcher or, you know, a producer on telly show and just go get my paycheck and come home. You know, those thoughts totally happened. But I, you know, it's not— it's— I feel I've got a voice and that's what I want to back.

Tommy: Do you think when shit gets harder, you got your back up against the wall, what kind of person do you become? Are you a fighter or does it—

Josh: I guess also if you— because you're someone who is very into your intuition, your gut instinct, your gut instinct has served you all this time and you followed it. And then to have have those friction points, I guess an extension, are you— can you then fall into questioning, hang on, is this gut instinct just a bit of delusion?

Stacey: Never, never. It's always led me to the right place. No, I don't think our gut instinct— that's the only thing I believe we have. I really do. I think that's the only thing we know for sure. And if we don't have that, then we're, we're in this world like so alone, constantly just following the pack. And that's— there's just no way that life is about that, that we're supposed to just be here consumed to just sign up to what everybody else tells us to do. So if that's not the case, then what's the other option? It's got to be that you go within and find your own vibe with it, you know, and find your own place. So that's never really been a question for me. But it's at the time when you're in those moments and your back is against the wall, maybe I won't meditate and ask my gut. Maybe you get a bit sabotaging or you kind of like, fuck this, I don't want to do it. And then I'm not perfect, like, and I won't meditate for a couple of days, which doesn't mean, you know, you don't— nothing. I don't start growing another head, but it means that I've lost a little bit of my compass, right? So then you can go down a bit of a spiral where you're like, you start to question stuff. And that's, I guess, the challenge is to be able to come back to it and you come back to it and straight away you get an answer that you know is the answer you need, which is just give it a couple of days or email this person or this is just a step to the next place. And then you can trust it. Like, I I've got such a good relationship with what I call my inner mate is that I can kind of look at it and go, all right, this isn't going to be exactly the way— for example, I've got an event coming up, my first, um, solo, uh, I guess speaking engagement, and it is all about how to find your intuition. And the numbers are different to the numbers that I would have with events that I did with, you know, a very successful duo with two people, lots of different, you know, profile behind it, whatever. And but it— I have to come back to myself and kind of go, no, no, this is a stepping stone for the next bit and the next bit. And that I get from my gut. I don't get it from anywhere else. Even if you told me or the girl that's organising it with me was saying that, I would never buy it as much. I don't know, it's weird.

Josh: What's the— how do you distinguish between, uh, gut instinct and things like anxiety? So, and, and do they grapple Um, yeah, they do.

Stacey: But I think the whole thing that we do in this workshop is talk about the idea, or at least navigate through the idea, that essentially your gut is your mate, right? If you are having things— and I know that it's— people don't want to believe that there's an option for you that is all positivity. Everybody says, oh, that can't be real. No, actually, your, your gut is it's— when I say positive, I mean it's not necessarily going to tell you everything you want to hear, but it is going to have your back because it's yourself. Um, so there's ways for you to be able to almost— and I've figured out the best possible way I can to mould it into almost like a person I introduce you to, so you can get a bit of an idea of who they are, what their characteristics are, how to trust them, how to find them, how to call them, how to speak to them, how to listen them just as you would as a friend. And so that's how we kind of navigate, I guess, trying to find something that's really personal and very internal. I try and make that as easy as possible for someone that is questioning their intuition and trying to find ways to come back to it. But back to the anxiety question, the anxiety can sometimes be a bit of a tricky one because it can also be a very good way for you to get messy You know, often we see anxiety as such a negative thing, which for a lot of us it is because it's a pain in the ass. It makes us feel not great. But we're also very quick to take signs that are only positive. We really ignore signs that come through as negative. And in fact, signs that aren't necessarily what we want to hear or what we want to do are just as powerful pieces of information from our gut than the positive ones. And so I think, you know, we need to kind of start to understand how to use our anxiety for our own benefit as well. That's not talking to people that are, you know, panic attacks, you know. I'm talking people that have tight chests like me and, you know, things that aren't as extreme. I don't know, there's ways for you to navigate it, I guess. Does that make sense?

Josh: I guess, where do you put it? Where do you prioritise it? Where all these things and these like got 100 thoughts or whatever on a specific thing, there's a million different ways that you can go. How do you start to sort those into something that's actionable?

Stacey: Well, you start to separate straight up that your thoughts aren't you, right? So you've got to read— everyone's got to read— I think I've even spoken about this, or maybe on your podcast or someone else's— The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. It's the greatest explanation of how you yourself, your personality, your sense of being, your purpose, who you feel like you are, who you feel like you are you are with your best mate, your partner, who you were as a kid, that is not your thought. They're completely two separate entities. And if we don't understand the difference between them, then it is very confusing because you're like, I am all of this. Well, no, you're not. You're only just this. And your thoughts are almost like— I like to call it a director of what this is. So it will essentially be the, the person that says, we're going this way, we're going that way, we're actioning this, we're doing this. Or we're not, but they're actions. They're not an essence, or they're not actually who you are. So the first step is trying to figure out ways to separate those two and understand that they're very different conversations and very different, I guess, offerings.

Josh: Which dictates which?

Stacey: You've got— you've— well, that's the whole thing. You have to have your gut dictate your mind, because if your mind dictates your gut, then you're constantly going to feel very confused and very unfulfilled with life, I think.

Josh: Where does external voices and culture fit into this? So I guess like some people feel like in their gut they need to have a kid or buy a house or these things that are sort of set up.

Stacey: This is so complex. I'm writing about this in my book at the moment, which is about single living and how much the first two chapters are all about how Disney and our parents and our society has taught us to couple up.

Josh: Up?

Stacey: And how do you get out of an idea of what is, I guess, successful living as a woman, um, and get into who you actually are? Maybe you do want to get married and live like Disney, but how do we separate from all of it to figure it out? Um, and that's— and for me, that is meditation, because it kind of rids the noise, and you have to create some form of space to be able to separate the two. So your mind and your that. But for other people, it might just be walking or listening to me. It just needs to be something that happens that allows you to have space. Because when we don't have space, there is no— there's no way for you to be able to separate the two. It's just one big merging blob.

Tommy: And actually being the observer, right? Because you're talking about mind, and it's like— and the distinction between the two. Even anxiety, being able to understand what that feeling is. I didn't think I was an anxious person, and I went to the doctor last night and I was talking to him about like getting the, you know, Medicare rebate for seeing a psychologist.

Stacey: And I was saying, I don't know how to do that, that test, the mental health thing.

Tommy: They just ask you a bunch of shit.

Josh: Luckily they didn't ask how to spell psychologist because you were definitely not.

Tommy: Fuck, I was spelling it with PH.

Stacey: I'm writing a book and I reckon I'd spell psychologist like that. You can do anything, guys. Believe in yourself.

Tommy: But I said to him, I don't know if it's quitting alcohol for the year and, and confronting the feelings that I have that I may have been masking with alcohol and meditating that makes me observe the feelings that I'm having. I don't know if it's that, or I've always felt anxious at times and haven't identified it. And I'm leaning towards I actually just haven't identified myself as having anxiety.

Stacey: My husband was like that. Yeah, yeah, it was like about that.

Tommy: Because I think you lean into the positivity. I want to switch the anxiousness to positivity ASAP.

Stacey: And you don't want to be an anxious person.

Tommy: Yeah.

Stacey: You don't want to be with everyone else, you know, or the picture of what an anxious person is. But there is no picture, and it comes up and goes, you know.

Tommy: And what's confronting is taking time to be still. If you're always thinking, taking time to actually acknowledge the fact that there is a flood of thought, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes down a negative spiral. That's confronting in itself to realize, fuck, I'm out of control, because we all are. Thoughts are— we don't control the thinking, it happens. And so, but it's controlling how we acknowledge that thinking and observing it. So sitting back from it, which is— yeah, I think it's, it's so powerful and hard at the same time.

Stacey: Very hard. Yeah, yeah. It gets easier though, and, you know, over time you start to not have to go so deep to be able to see the benefits of it. It will just happen. Like even how we were talking before, I don't know what the question was, but I was like, when you were saying, is the gut just maybe not nothing? And I was, I almost was like, I don't even know how to answer that because that is how I think. So it's not even, I didn't even feel like it might come across like some religious crazy.

Josh: It could be faith. Like that is a type of faith, right? Which is like, I think there is this thing that is guiding, guiding you or whatever, which is, I think, but I think it's all, we all have one.

Stacey: I think with faith it's like Specific to a certain type of religion.

Josh: Like, I guess that's the difference between religion and faith. Like, that's what I think is powerful when I see friends who have religion in their life. The people who I think I really sort of admire are the people who, like, they take the faith bit. Yeah, they take it as a personal practice. And so prayer is just meditation, and it's just like all these other things actually are just just, they're all one of the same in some ways.

Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: Um, yeah, the— I think like culture and the what we think society wants from us is interesting as well. Like the Tommy stopping alcohol, uh, all these things of like, it feels like it's very popular at the moment to like quit things, right? Like stop doing this, stop doing that. I don't watch TV, I don't consume this type of And I wonder whether some of that is coming from people's own feeling of inadequacy around like the self-hate of, oh, I'll be good if I don't do X, Y, and Z. Do you feel like, say, with your phone, like I feel like that's one big one for me. I'm constantly like, if I don't spend, if I spend less time on my phone, I'll be able to have things dialled in. Are you thinking about those things from a personal level of like, I want to cut out this, I want to cut out that?

Stacey: Not really, no. I think because I think, I don't know, I feel like it's almost impossible then to live long-term like that, you know what I mean? So I'm looking constantly to find things that I can add to my day that level the things I choose to use out. So creating space or, you know, meditating or doing yoga or going for a walk or exercise, whatever it is. I need to be on my phone for work, probably not as much as I am at the moment, um, because I'm pregnant and tired, so I'm on it a lot. But I mean, it's more about trying to— that's something that's going to be with me all the time. And I, I've tried that before. I had— where we would laugh because I bought a burner phone, which was like one of those—

Tommy: what are you selling?

Stacey: That's what we called it. It was a different number, it was a flip, it had— it was not a smartphone. And I had it just to have as a number so you could text me or call me on the weekends, and I would have no social minute. This is when I was still on it because it was just so intense. Everything was so full-on. It was just brimming up. But at the same time, it was like I couldn't take photos, and there were parts of the phone that actually helped me with maps and different stuff. I was like, no, I've got to find more of a way to kind of support this lifestyle as opposed to fight it.

Josh: So what's the structure then? If it's not getting rid of it, what do you do?

Stacey: Well, it's creating space, creating space without all of it and being able to find ways to separate seperate from the noise, which whether can be traffic, work, I don't know, stuff that's stressing you out, or your thoughts, to your actual gut, which is just a person or a spirit or a faith or a nothing. It's just maybe some silence that you can kind of tap into and just say, hey, Stace, what a day, you know what I mean? And just come back home a bit. And not have any of that noise.

Josh: And so the— that idea of like, you know, you're talking about being tired and pregnant, so you're spending more time on your phone potentially. Do you think that those things where we say, you know what, I'm going to just let myself do these things— so for instance, like, yeah, I am tired, so I'm just going to lean into it, I'm going to scroll on Instagram for 3 hours and I'm not going to be hard on myself— are those serving us, or are those actually self-sabotaging actions that make us feel tired? I can't work out, am I tired and then going on Instagram, or is Instagram making me tired?

Stacey: Both.

Tommy: Both. Yeah, both. I think the rule stuff— some people require some kind of non-negotiable rule around—

Stacey: so alcohol structure and structure.

Tommy: Like, there is—

Stacey: I think it's guys actually. Ben, my husband's been saying this a lot actually. He's doing a bit of— he's doing a coaching programme with this other dude, and it's all about positive masculinity and and it's fascinating. And he's saying, and he was coming into, he came into the room after he did it the next morning and was saying, I know you're a bit of a go-with-the-flow person, and I know on a weekend this, this, and this. He's like, but actually I need structure. I need some structure about when are we going to do this, how are we going to do that, whatever. And they were talking about how it is a real, it's a real bloke thing that it actually, it's just a way for you to feel safer and feel better about your situation. So I think it might be girls too, but I, I, that was just what has come up in our life recently.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the phone thing's an interesting one because if you just went with the flow, you'd continue doing what you're doing, is just scrolling when you're tired, flicking, just constantly in it, moving back and forth. So if there is a rule, and then maybe the rule thing doesn't work once you try it, unless we try these things How do we know if they work? How if we give them 3 months, 6 months, a year? You need to give it that to see if it works.

Stacey: But, and the quitting part could be an element of you creating that space, you know. So we're talking about this space today. The quitting booze for however long could be an, an opportunity for you to have more space, which then if that works, that works, right?

Josh: I guess also like I think about my work and I feel happy, happiest when success is defined defined. So then I know whether it's been a successful project or not. I guess that's why these little indicators of I'm only going to spend this amount of time on my phone or having a calendar that's filled up gives you some of those elements of what success is.

Stacey: Yeah, I have that even with my self-care and meditate. Like, I'll do a month where I'm like, oh, I feel like I've kind of gone on and off. So I'll have those calendar things from Typo where they've got the boxes of the calendar. And every morning, if I meditate or if I I tap, or if I do some stretches, or whatever, I'll just write it down. And I'll give myself a little menu of things to choose from so it's not so rigid. And then I can see back through the month of what I've done as a bit of a monthly kind of challenge. Like, I, I get it, like, it can be all different stuff. But I suppose the, the flip side of all of this is that it— doing different things for different people is the key. So how do you figure out what is right for you if you don't have any space to ask yourself. That's the fucking headfuck about it. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, if you— so all of this stuff works really well if you have a good conversation with yourself to be able to judge what is right for you.

Josh: And is that meditation? Is that where you think that happens?

Stacey: Quiet. So if that's meditation, then yeah. Um, but yeah, I do, I do. And I think, um, I think it's just— it's the obvious discussion point, it's the obvious suggestion, but I think it is because works.

Josh: I think that quiet also feels like a luxury when you feel like shit's happening and you need to make decisions and you've got all of this stimulus. Um, yeah, it makes sense.

Tommy: But then the benefit of just swimming in thought for 8 or 16 hours of your waking day isn't necessarily optimised to, to get the result of fixing or, you know, yeah, I guess what's the point?

Josh: I guess the point— what's the point as well in regards to like it's okay for things not to be going right. Like, I think maybe sometimes it's like, I'm going to meditate, and so then these things that are bad aren't going to be bad anymore. But maybe it's being able to deal with—

Tommy: Oh no, I mean, that's the— I mean, the Sam Harris, his app is like, this may be the only 10 minutes of your day where you drop all of the thought. So what you said then is you're thinking about the outcome based on the middle. Yeah, you labelled the outcome. Yeah. And so he's is like, no, no, it's going to be there. Don't worry, pick it up. 10 minutes, you're still fucked. But this 10 minutes, just sit back from it.

Stacey: Space.

Josh: Yeah. Which I guess is, which is interesting because I think that for a lot of people they have to get to a dark spot, like people have to get to a dark space to motivate them to do all these sorts of things. So then the expectation becomes so fucking massive of what it's going to do for them.

Stacey: It's like, okay, well, and that's why people avoid it. Yeah. But I say that all the time, even to my mates. I'll say all the time. Don't fucking start to build your house in the rain, mate. Like, do it when you feel good. That's the best work you can do. Because mostly if you're going to therapy when shit hits the fan, it's to survive the shit hitting the fan. Actually getting benefits of therapy and moving forward and having your life improved. The work is done when it's sunny outside, when things aren't, you know, screwed.

Josh: It's update your LinkedIn before you need a new job. That's my mantra.

Stacey: Hey, we're talking each their own, so there's no judgement here.

Tommy: Yeah, so cheque in with yourself. Have you updated your LinkedIn today?

Josh: Because you know, because I remember like about 4 years ago at a previous job, I was known as the person who would know whether someone was leaving based on their LinkedIn activity.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, you're the kind of guy that would know if someone unfollowed somebody as well.

Stacey: So, uh, oh yeah, we're going to bring that up because this This is the thing I wanted to ask.

Josh: How did I find out? I looked.

Stacey: How does anyone know that information?

Josh: So I just like, these are the rabbit holes that I end up with. I go, okay, are those, I wonder what's happening with those two people. Are they, and then so I go following, like, who are they following?

Stacey: You thought that about Tommy and I?

Josh: No, I was literally, what is happening with those two people? No, no, what was that? What was my thought process? What was my thought process?

Stacey: No, the thought is there to be not good.

Josh: I don't know, there's not good. No, but just like, you're like, okay, what's— I'm trying, I'm trying to understand it. Give me a moment. Do you not— did you ever do it or no?

Stacey: Go looking to see if other people follow people?

Josh: Yeah. You've never done it?

Tommy: No.

Josh: Oh, I do it all the time. Like, the thing is, you use one example. It's like I'm creating storeys around like, I I wonder, like, I got a vibe about this. Do you work confidential?

Stacey: That sounds like something they would do.

Josh: No, I definitely do that. Like, I'll be the first one to know if someone drops off in regards to stopping liking my content.

Stacey: Ah, so how do I drop off?

Josh: Lots of little indicators, potentially anxiety. Oh, give me a few.

Stacey: But that's okay, I'm into it. So I dropped off liking. Liking a few things.

Josh: Oh no, I was potentially— I'm, yeah, I'm trying to—

Tommy: where were you? What was the weather?

Josh: Yeah, I don't know the specifics, but I do it. I— there's a lot of—

Tommy: it's his blessing and a curse. He's a great storyteller and the storeys come from every angle. Some aren't true, some he's just making up.

Stacey: But also I find it fascinating because it starts somewhere and it doesn't mean that it has to mean anything, but it could be an anxious thought, it could be not, but it's still fascinating to me me as to what the— what it's like. Well, we're talking about fires. How did it start? Like, you know, where was it? Something like you thought she would have totally used to have liked that, and I didn't. And then you go, she's probably not following us, and then go in a little bit.

Josh: Yeah, it's like, oh no, she's following. Uh, what about— because you go on the following, it's like I say me, I say the dad. But yeah, no, there is a, there is a lot of, there is a lot of that.

Tommy: What did you think? So you got a message from somebody. I don't know who.

Josh: One of the Gronks.

Tommy: One of the Gronks. Someone who follows you and I.

Stacey: Well, she was a long-term follower of the Thinker Girls.

Tommy: And now she's a Gronk Squad member.

Stacey: And then heard her on this show and now is a big follower of your show. And she messaged me what I screen grabbed and messaged you saying.

Josh: So much drama.

Stacey: If— what did she say again? 97, do you remember?

Tommy: It was so sweet.

Stacey: She said something like, how sweet are you?

Josh: You're not starting drama. This is completely fine. The guys were so nice about it.

Stacey: She did. And she said, but they have spoken about the fact that you haven't— you unfollowed Tommy. And I was— I just thought it was fucking hilarious from the beginning.

Josh: I was like, I mean, if we were to go— if we were to go deep for a moment.

Stacey: No, but then she said, and I've checked and it's right. She went in, she went, and I've checked, you don't follow him. And I was like, I was like, shit. And of course I knew what it was. I unfollowed like 1,000 people.

Tommy: Yeah. So is that the thing?

Josh: You said a bit of a culling, like you go through a culling period or whatever.

Tommy: It's my black and white photo. She's just all out the way.

Stacey: I just went bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And no, it would have been some— well, that's interesting. We should look into who's above you and below you because it would have been one of them.

Josh: It doesn't show you weirdly. Instagram doesn't show you in order of the following only followers, which is another weird thing. But another thing is you can't— one thing they've done which tripped me up the other day with one of the storeys I was creating was that they proved your storey wrong. They don't always show, you know, how normally all the people that you follow, that they follow, sort of appear up on the top.

Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh: It's not always accurate.

Stacey: Also, this isn't a story. Like, what you found happened. I wasn't following Tommy.

Josh: Great.

Stacey: Like, you know what I mean?

Tommy: What does it mean? So now you guys are—

Stacey: Yeah, yeah. What does it mean is obviously the story, but actually the beginnings of what you found, even though you're like trying trying to push it down. Yeah, it had legitimacy because I had not— she said to me, you're not following me. I went on to his page, I was like, fuck, yeah, what have I done? And so then I went back and followed you.

Tommy: Clearly texted it to me.

Stacey: Yeah. And said, and I didn't even express what happened.

Josh: It was good.

Stacey: Well, yeah, I just unfollowed a lot of people now. But also accidentally followed you. I don't even know what happened.

Josh: But also just gave a good sort reason for it all to happen, really, which I'm glad that I was able to facilitate.

Stacey: But otherwise you might have found out one way and that would have been a bit more—

Tommy: we had that conversation. No, because we had that conversation and I'm like, I know our friendship.

Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: It's not like if you've got something like you're just not saying it to me, if you need to unfollow me, good, but we're still mates. And so I never bought into a storey of you've done it for X, Y, and Z. I always was like, dude, there's nothing here. There's actually—

Stacey: so did you think there could have been some beef?

Josh: No, not beef, bro. I was just like—

Tommy: no, I was veggie.

Josh: Veggie.

Stacey: Be honest.

Josh: Okay, I was being honest. So what I thought it could have been, I was like, this is what I rationalized. I was like, okay, you had the, uh, miscarriage. You were, uh, you are cleansing the sorts of content that you're producing. Tommy's fucking always posting about Bodhi and all this sort of shit. And so you're like, I'm just— I can't have these kids. I can't have all this sort of shit in my feed. Unfollow, unfollow, unfollow. And because I don't have like a kid and I wasn't in that sort of path in regards to you cancelling out that stuff.

Tommy: Yeah.

Stacey: And people might do that. Yeah, people might do that.

Tommy: Interesting storey though.

Stacey: Fascinating. Again, have you ever thought about writing for Confidential?

Josh: It's the Daily Mail.

Stacey: Daily Mail.

Josh: Yeah, there's, there's a lot of— you can see, you can see a lot of what's happening in the world based on social media interactions and what's going on.

Stacey: Or you can't, which is exactly what we've just proved.

Josh: Well, you didn't say whether I was right or wrong, because it's like, yeah.

Stacey: And then there's also this idea of, again, in your gut you're like, there's been no beef here, and I know, but then we can create this whole fucking thing by this thing that is really not that real.

Josh: Yeah, but it wasn't a beef if you thought about it. I went for the empathetic.

Stacey: Of course you did. But I mean, it's still a creation, you know what I mean? That has no merit in any contact or any form of reality.

Josh: If someone likes your content, will you be— do you ever go, ah, wonder what that person's— because that's what social media is, right? Like someone likes your content, it's like they haven't liked anything in a while. While. I wonder what's happening. Like, what you'll see, things where it's like, oh, that person, that guy is commenting a lot on that girl's posts. I reckon he's not with his partner anymore.

Stacey: No.

Josh: And then you go down, you, you don't do any of that.

Stacey: Never.

Josh: Oh, you're missing it, mate. That's where 3 hours of my Instagram—

Stacey: I think the thing, the thing that gets me is more work stuff. I probably get more secretively competitive, which is not good. Look at different people's stuff. I've stopped doing it now, but I think I would always be on mostly for job opportunities. I was a bit of a like, if that person's working with that brand, like, yeah, there's an opening here.

Tommy: It's almost strategic for a career.

Stacey: More. But personally, nah, I've never been this girl that is— I don't request anyone I went to school with. I've got no interest in seeing old mate Tiana from primary school and how many kids she's got.

Josh: I've got no interest.

Stacey: Nothing. But also from followers and stuff, Like it has to be for me, and especially with the Thinker Girls, with how much we would share. Yeah, I had to keep a bit of a distance. I didn't want to know— this sounds awful because we, we would meet people, but I would be happy to meet you at a real event, but I don't want to create some idea of who you are online.

Tommy: Can I just— a good one, um, we can look at the storey potentially behind it. LinkedIn, you can see who's looking at your profile. When we were in Shepparton, the CEO of Southern Cross Australia.

Stacey: I did used to like that feature though.

Tommy: The biggest radio station in Australia, Rhys Holloran. He's no longer the CEO, but he was currently looking at my LinkedIn profile.

Josh: Not right at this second, but yesterday I saw.

Tommy: What's Rhys Holloran looking at my profile for?

Stacey: Oh, so you've got the— because now LinkedIn, you've got to have the business pack or something.

Tommy: They give you— they tease you with mates.

Stacey: They took it away from me.

Josh: Tease you with 4 people.

Tommy: Definitely tease you with 4 people.

Stacey: And then all of a sudden it's looking at me.

Tommy: But you're going to have it activated so people can see, you know, you have to— if you can see others, they can see you.

Josh: If we're being honest, the one— this is one that's a little bit fucked up, which I think Tommy called me out on, was we asked someone to be on our podcast and they never got back to me.

Stacey: And so did you ask them on Instagram so you could see if they'd seen it?

Josh: Yes. And they saw it.

Stacey: Of course you did.

Josh: And so what I did was I went through every per— every blue tick that they followed, uh, on Instagram, or anyone that I knew, and put them down on all these people on a long list. I'm like, I'm going to in the next 10 days get as many people on as possible. And so they're bombarded with us in their feed.

Stacey: And did you?

Josh: Yeah, we did. Yeah.

Stacey: And have they responded since?

Josh: They, they then started engaging with our content.

Stacey: Yeah, that's brilliant. And so I, I need to meet someone like you you to be my new business partner because I'm so impressed with that. Slash, it probably used to be me and I'm tired of it now.

Josh: It's tiring, Danny.

Tommy: It's tiring.

Stacey: I need someone else to do it. Yeah, you've lucked out.

Tommy: Yeah, I don't do it. It's too much for me.

Stacey: But you've got someone in your corner that is doing it, but you will get exhausted by it eventually.

Tommy: Oh, it is a little bit exhausting hearing about the journey he's been on. You were on a big adventure last night.

Josh: Big one.

Stacey: Yeah, that is amazing.

Josh: And so part of it, like, uh, yeah, when I create these stories, I'm best though when Tommy at least lets me have them. But the other— a few months ago, Tommy was like, maybe that's not true. And that pissed me off a lot because I'm like, I've built this storey over a long time.

Stacey: Yeah.

Tommy: And then you— so there's attachment to your personal truth and the— and well, no, it worked.

Josh: I think that that Instagram thing is a good one. Like, you don't want to be—

Tommy: yeah, but then it does pay off, right?

Josh: Like, well, that's what you were saying.

Stacey: It's like Do you really have them on now because they're competitive and they're saying all these other things?

Josh: Blacklisted them. It's like you've got a list.

Stacey: I'm like, yes, you've got a blacklist.

Josh: Well, in my head there's a few people where it's just like people who it's like—

Stacey: I had a bit of a black— I had a couple people that I, that I was very much like, nah. And, and when we got the radio show from the podcast, when you're starting from scratch, as you guys would know, and people people ignore you or, you know, treat you like shit or whatever. And then you get a big radio show with commercial, you know, national following coverage and whatever. And then they start pitching to you. There were a few times where I was like, nah, it's like that Instagram thing.

Tommy: It's a status game.

Josh: If you don't, if you can't accept me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.

Stacey: And so you're so proud of that quote. Your whole face was like, you were just dancing in your own words.

Tommy: Is this your worst?

Josh: No, but I think there is a bit, there's a little bit of like, hey, like if you, uh, uh, but it's driven me my whole life. Like when I was a kid, like I wasn't popular, but the way that I gained respect as a kid was I was like, if you want to be in the year 10 video, you need to be my, you need to at least be nice to me.

Tommy: But then it's negotiating into a power game because the opposite is that's okay, I understand where I'm at in this position. I'm a shit kicker. Or we're not there yet. We're not doing a good enough job at communicating the type of work we do.

Josh: That's the point. What I respect with people who come on our show now is it's like they're not doing it in regards to status or any of these things. They're just doing it because they want to be on and they like us.

Tommy: Well, we've done over 500 episodes. There is a point where it becomes easy. There will be.

Josh: Yeah, but there'll be a time where it's like you've built a big enough beast that it is in people's interest, their personal interest to do it.

Stacey: To be on your show. To be on the show.

Josh: And so what I— my thought is, is if you can't accept us at our worst, you don't deserve us at our best, basically. With the idea of if you're not going to come on the show now where it might not make complete sense, then when you're ready to, you know, sell your book or whatever, I'm not fucking interested. And I realise that there's a huge amount of grandiosity and all that sort of shit to it because— and a bunch of ego, but a little ego.

Stacey: Well, you're aware of it.

Josh: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's great that you've come on the show.

Tommy: Shake hands as new, um, as new, um, followers.

Josh: We were already friends.

Stacey: Did you get a little bit of joy in the fact that I hadn't unfollowed you?

Josh: I said to Tommy, I was like, at least you're still connected with her through me.

Tommy: Um, Mr. 97, have we got any questions? I know the live stream's gone for quite some time.

Stacey: That's gone. The live stream turned off.

Tommy: No, just people saying hey, what's up? Hey, what's up?

Stacey: What's up?

Josh: All right guys, it's a Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com. Uh, we had a bunch of— so we had a video, uh, our mate Matt Diavella did this video on the 10-year rule.

Stacey: I loved it, I saw it.

Josh: Yeah, and everyone was like, how do you guys actually— people think that this is all we do, uh, and, uh, they're like, they think we're trust fund kids. Unfortunately, we don't have love that.

Tommy: This would be great to be a trust fund kid right now.

Josh: Yeah. But what we do do is video production. So if people want video production, send us an email, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. It's like employer brand stuff is our thing where it's like people saying why they love where they work.

Stacey: Like you did, like DFO, for example.

Josh: Yeah, that stuff.

Tommy: Case study style video. I mean, this is a time to full testimonial from Stace.

Stacey: Me?

Tommy: About your work? Down the back.

Josh: This could go either way.

Stacey: I'm Stacey Oh, I thought that joke.

Josh: Like, especially like businesses that are human-centered. If you've got a storey that's around humans and that's why it's like, like Envato, a tech company, we did a bunch of stuff with them because it's like they've got all this great community and we can like celebrate it.

Stacey: In layman's terms though, you mean like Red Rooster are now doing, you know, a commercial for Christmas and families because they want to share their family passion. Is that what it is? Is this true?

Tommy: No.

Stacey: But it's like the idea of that if you've got human storeys that are behind brands, that's your specialty. Exactly.

Josh: I think that, yeah, that's very well put. I think it is around stuff, especially with, say, technology or e-commerce or these things where it's like, well, you don't have bricks and mortar, you don't actually get to see customers. There's none of that connection. And so doing those videos where you highlight your customers, so it's It's like, say if you've got a business where you sell tractors, we can go onto a farm and tell the storey about how this tractor saved them all of this time. And it's not only good for the external marketing, but then it explains to the fucking internal people within your business what you actually do.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a hard slog selling yourself as the business. So if you can use storeys of your customers and storeys within your business to share the storey of your product or brand. Yeah, it's super powerful. That's what we do.

Josh: Yeah. So hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to send us an email. What's, uh, Stacy June, if you just type that in onto Apple Podcasts, your show comes up. Yeah, I like the Self-Centered Sundays. Yeah, it's a good benchmark.

Stacey: What do you mean?

Tommy: Josh has got Soft Serve Sundays, but they go well together.

Stacey: I don't know what I'm going to do next year, actually. There's a lot of me talking on my show at the moment. I got over the, um, because this, this kind of style I did for 7 years. And so it's not that I don't enjoy it, but I was looking for ways to get a message across. So then I just started talking into the microphone. Now I'm a bit over that too. So I mean, I'm excited to see what I pull out of the, what cat I've pulled out of the bag for next year.

Josh: What about Stacey's space? So you're talking a lot about giving yourself space.

Stacey: Yeah.

Josh: Maybe it's a podcast that has—

Stacey: Oh, silence.

Josh: Initially I went there, but then an extension could be you start off by asking a question question and then they have space for 15 minutes and then you—

Stacey: then I come back. So it's sort of like meditation, so kind of like Self-Centered Sunday, but then I give them the space in the middle to think about it.

Josh: Yeah, it also means you could do an hour podcast with like 2 minutes of material. You know, just a thought.

Stacey: I think people would turn off.

Tommy: Yeah, if you're still listening, uh, a lot of effort to go to get silence.

Josh: Yeah, to be honest, maybe Should we give them a free 10 seconds of space now?

Stacey: Sure.

Josh: Okay, here we go.

Tommy: It's quite pleasant, wasn't it?

Josh: It's, uh, Stacy's Space, the daily talk show. See you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.

Josh: Bye.