Tully Smyth On Social Squad, Psychologists & Grieving

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 444.

Tommy: Special guest in the studio, Tally Smyth.

Tully: Hello.

Josh: You've already laughed at the— over the intro. I think I heard that.

Tully: I wasn't warned about it. It was very loud in my ears.

Tommy: We should actually give a little bit of a warning.

Tully: Yeah, you should.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: I mean, you've got the headphones on, you're in the studio. How are you?

Tully: We— I'm well. We're very close. I feel like we're really bonding just from the proximity of how We're sitting.

Tommy: I thought you're talking about our relationship.

Tully: Our knees are almost touching. Almost.

Josh: This is what I worked out early on is I would look at the video and I would, for whatever reason, Tommy always looks closer to the guests.

Tommy: I don't want my shoulders to fill it out.

Josh: I don't want the audience to feel that.

Tully: It's very disgusting to be able to see yourself.

Josh: Well, literally, I saw like the other day, I was like, I was literally doing the podcast and I looked back at the video. I was like, what sort of rapport does it look like? It looks like I'm not even in the show.

Tommy: Yeah, it's either you smell and you're getting away or they smell.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, how conscious were you? Big Brother days already fucking going there.

Tully: That's great. Let's do it.

Josh: Conscious of that stuff, of the cameras.

Tully: Do you know what? The first day I was really conscious. I felt like I had to narrate what was happening. If I wasn't with anyone, I would like be walking around being like, now I'm going to put on my pajamas, then I'm going to brush my teeth. I don't know why I was doing that, but I just felt like I needed to fill the silence with something.

Tommy: So you're actually singing.

Tully: I was, well, that was just me being awkward, I think. But I was speaking, I was just sort of describing whatever I was going to be doing. But there are cameras you can see and they're the ones you're really aware of. And in the bedrooms, there are cameras that sort of pivot and you can hear them like following you around, which is really disconcerting, especially when it's just you in the room and you're just pottering around. It's like, errr.

Tommy: It's so weird.

Tully: And you can hear them breathing on you, like in the walls.

Tommy: How does privacy sit with you?

Tully: Since the show, I don't really give a— I mean, once you've done a show like that. Yeah, it's funny though. It was initially there were some people that had some issues, stuff like there was that first night when we've had a few drinks, but it's time to go to bed and we're all kind of getting changed and you're not going to take your pyjamas and go to the bathroom to get changed. It feels silly, but you kind of— you're all strangers. And so you're all in this small space and you're kind of like doing the whole like trying to take your bra off from underneath your t-shirt subtly and But that passes very quickly. Yeah. You just don't care anymore.

Tommy: You just get comfortable. I guess it's like young kids in change rooms are always like, you know, I remember in school days. Now there's just old dudes walking around with their dick out at the gym.

Tully: Yeah. You don't really, I think you just sort of realise that we've signed up to do a show. We're being filmed 24/7.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tully: So even if I was to take my pyjamas into the toilet cubicle, shut the door, there's a camera in there. You know, there's nowhere to hide.

Josh: Was there uncut? During the time that you were doing it?

Tully: No, there wasn't. And that played— that was a huge part of why I agreed to do the show. I don't think I would have done it had there been Uncut. I used to be a big fan of Uncut. I know exactly how nude you get on that show. And the thought of my brothers having to deal with that. And obviously now we're in an age where social media and YouTube and Instagram— to have nude videos of me showering for the rest of my life is a bit much.

Tommy: Did you have those thoughts? Like, I mean, the platforms weren't really at where they are right now.

Tully: No, not at all. I definitely did. I definitely— I knew that by not having Uncut and also Channel Nine had made a big deal about them bringing the show back from Channel 10 and making it more family-friendly. That's why it did so well that first season on Channel 9. So, and I'd watched that and made sure that I knew what the show was about, and it was much more family-friendly. They were taking it right back to its original sort of premise. So I knew that they wouldn't be showing me making a dick of myself. Even the nights that we sort of had the party nights on a Friday where we got more and more alcohol, um, they'd cut us off quite quickly. So I knew that we're useless to them. They can't air footage of us slurring and stuff like that. They just can't. So Basically all the best parts, all the funniest stuff, all the best stories, all the raciest stuff no one's ever seen.

Tommy: Putting yourself in the shoes of the people that are now going into shows like MAFS, what do you think? What's the mindset there? They're outrageous, those fucking shows.

Josh: It's also a different beast. It's not like you're just going into a house and I've just got to be myself. It feels like you're playing this whole game.

Tully: Yeah. I've often wondered how I would fare on a show where I have a camera and a producer in my face. It's so easy on a show like Big Brother where the cameras are mainly kindly hidden to forget you're being filmed and to just be yourself. I don't know how I would go, you know, if you and I were chatting and all of a sudden the camera crew popped up, whether I'd sort of straighten my back and change what I was saying. And I don't know how I'd go with a physical camera and a producer feeding me basically lines.

Tommy: Could be good for Josh's core.

Josh: Oh yeah, if it's all for posture. I mean, we had, uh, we had, um, Scott Pape, the Barefoot Investor, in here.

Tully: Big fan of him.

Josh: Yeah, he's amazing. And we— they had the Foxtel, um, crew documentary, and there were You should have seen, there was moments where the camera was like this up to my face and we just have to talk normally. And you definitely, there was a bit of a performance. My hand never does this. I'll do a bit of— Exactly.

Tully: And I even felt that in the show, you know, when you did feel those cameras on you, like, you know, because of my situation, there was a constant bedroom camera on my bed with my ex-boyfriend Drew. And I could, when I saw it facing us, I was aware that it was facing us. And even I remember being outside in the garden once and I was, went up to the one-way mirror and I was really close to it trying to get this like blackhead out of my face. And I was like this close to the camera and sort of, you know how if you get really close, you can see kind of through them. I just saw this massive lens just focus and readjust and I was like, holy shit. I'm like, oh my God, there is someone literally like here at my face and I'm just there like squeezing.

Tommy: So you're slowly forgetting that it's all being filmed.

Tully: Oh, for sure. You definitely forget. You forget really quickly.

Tommy: The love with Drew, You know, you've experienced.

Tully: What a love story.

Tommy: You know, it's one of the classics.

Josh: This morning I went onto YouTube.

Tully: You watched a compilation video?

Josh: Yeah, I watched a compilation video. That's beautiful. It was nice.

Tommy: How is he, by the way? You spoken to him?

Tully: Yeah, we speak really, we speak regularly. We've spoken recently. He's good. He's doing good. He is finishing an accounting degree and he manages a bar in South Yarra.

Tommy: Classic storey off the back of a highly successful reality show. Accountant into a—

Tully: To his credit, he has two degrees. He also has an engineering degree.

Tommy: No, I think that, I mean, you're smart as fuck. That's one of the things I enjoy. Thank you so much. I think from when I met you, you can have preconceived ideas of Tully Smyth, but I think when I met you, I'm like, wow, you're really, really smart. Not that I thought anything else, but I think what you push out to the world obviously is what people will give feedback on or take and make a judgement or understanding of you.

Josh: The qualifications needed to be in a house is quite low, right?

Tully: Totally. And I think it's interesting when I haven't watched the show back in its entirety. I've just watched little clips on YouTube.

Tommy: Oh, we're doing a marathon this afternoon.

Tully: You know what? I've thought about that so many times when I've been like, like ill or, you know, hungover. And I'm like, is it time? Is it time? But I haven't had the guts to do it yet.

Josh: But I don't know if you need that trigger.

Tully: No, even hearing the theme song makes me kind of like rock back and forth in the corner a bit. But no, my two best friends, the night I was evicted, I said, you know, how did I go? What do you think? And they're like, to be honest, the thing that really annoyed us was that they just, they didn't show how smart and funny you are. They just kind of showed either you crying or you making out with Drew. They were your two sort of things.

Tommy: Because I think the you're entertaining is the one that they showed, right? But it also doesn't mean you don't have depth, but it's just what they bring. And so there's people are enjoying this whole thing and your friends are going, oh, the true Tully, I fucking know.

Tully: Yeah, totally.

Tommy: And they're missing a whole point.

Tully: Well, when there's 21 people in there and the show goes for an hour, you know, of course the bits they're going to use of me are me having a tantrum or me making out with someone. Why wouldn't you?

Tommy: So the love between you and Drew.

Tully: Back to love story.

Tommy: Well, I think about traveling, right? And the moments I've met a woman. I've got a beautiful wife now and it's okay.

Josh: You met in Bali.

Tommy: Yeah. I'll use this then. The good example. I won't get in trouble. I met my wife at Potato Head.

Tully: That gives me hope. That gives me so much hope.

Josh: It's the love storey that we can never hear.

Tommy: It's this explosion of energy, right? It sounds a bit weird, but there's, it's like, that's what I look for, right? That's what I've always looked for in a partner is like fireworks at the start. That's what you don't get on Tinder, I believe.

Josh: And not Bali Bali.

Tully: But is it, Not explosive diary, just explosions.

Tommy: Your experience now, is it real? Like what you and Drew experienced, or is it just purely heightened and you actually walk away from it and go—

Tully: Do you know what? I've thought about this so often over the years. I've gotten drunk and texted him being like, do you think that we were really in love? Was that all real? What do you think? It's hard to say. I don't know any different. You know, I have been in love before. I've been in love before. I, you know, I felt I was in love before I met Drew, and I've been in love since. And there is that you do know what it feels like to fall in love. I just remember he came in a day late because he was like a surprise intruder with a fake wife, which I was the first to pick up on, was definitely not a real relationship. But the minute he walked in, I think the first night you get in there and I cocked everyone and I spoke to everyone, I was like, nah, I'm good. No issues here, I've got this.

Josh: No issues based on no one that you were attracted to?

Tully: Yeah, I mean, my friends said before I went in, they're like, look, they're just worried. They know what I'm like, and I am quite affectionate. And I'm— I'm— at that point, I'd been quite codependent. I'd been in relationships my whole life. I just gone from one to the next to the next. And they were worried that I would struggle without my partner and without that sort of like close person to lean on. Um, plus I'm a Libra, so I'm a flirt. And so when everyone— I clocked everyone that first night, I was like, nah, I'm all good, this is sweet. And then he walked in second day, and I was like Oh, I'm in big trouble here, like big trouble. But he really was, for, you know, initially there, my best friend. He was my rock and my support. We really got each other on a level very early on. We both felt like we'd been miscast, which sounds so funny now considering how much of a role we played in that series. But everyone was quite, they're kind of show pony. They were really loud and really in your face. And they all had a, you know, a really hectic backstory. And there was, you know, there was Mikaela who was adopted and she was Asian. You know, and then there was Tim, he was really out there. And then there was a guy who was in the army and there was a firefighter and, you know, Miss Universe chick. And we were like, we just, we felt like we weren't performing. And so we'd sit in the corner and talk to each other about how we felt like we would. We were worried we were letting the producers down. Quite frankly, we were like, we're not giving them what they want.

Josh: You were a people pleaser.

Tully: Little did we know we were giving them everything that they wanted. Yeah. No, it was more just like we just felt like we, we weren't meant to be in there. Everyone was putting on this big show and we were kind of like, oh, this is uncomfortable.

Josh: You even found that at the auditions, right?

Tully: Like, yes, I did. Yes, I, I think I just think I'm too cool. I thought I was too cool. Yeah, you know, some of those, some of those challenges and stuff where they want us to dress up in overalls, pretend we're at a car wash. I was like, oh, I don't want to do this. It's so embarrassing. Yeah, basically.

Josh: I remember doing drama school as a kid and they'd play games. I'm like, I'm here to act, none of this fucking dumb shit.

Tully: It must have, it must have been obvious from the get-go because I remember Alex Manfredakis, the producer, the night before we went into the house coming. He came around to all of our hotel rooms in lockdown to have one final chat with us. It was actually the chat where he was like, all right, seriously now, any skeletons in the closet, I need to know. Like sex tapes you've made, you know, times you've been arrested. Uh, and he even said to me, I remember he was like, look, just do us a favour and just go with it. He was like, just, you know, throw, throw your all into these challenges. So I think he was kind of worried that I would maybe be too cool for school, but yeah, I ended up getting amongst it.

Josh: In 2019, what would Big Brother look like? Do you think it would be more vanilla, or do you think it could be all on the internet, livestream, uncut all the time?

Tully: Look, I— no, I don't think they'll bring back uncut. Um, we don't really have any shows like that. It's not really how we consume media, how we consume television these days. I think that social media would definitely play a bigger role in it, whether that means that you can live evict people, live voting, you know use a hashtag to pick a challenge or put two people in a room together. There'd be a lot more interactions using social media for sure. But I think that what Big Brother do well and what they figured out when they brought it back is just sticking to the original format. At the end of the day, in a world where we're so inundated, you know, the market is so saturated now with so many different reality TV programs, I think bringing it back to basics like Big Brother does is what's going to make it a success again.

Tommy: We've got a close friend of the show, Scooter Derek, who is obsessed with Big Brother, has and was part of forums and like flew up to the Gold Coast to see the live show.

Josh: He probably went to one.

Tully: Did he audition?

Tommy: No, no, no.

Josh: He just loved the show. He just loved what he would have the computer like would stream and watch it and all that sort of thing.

Tully: I like that.

Tommy: He's a fan, right? And so how do you, I mean, being on there, what's your take on what it creates in people, what it brings out in people? It's like it brings out real punter mentality.

Tully: I was the same thing. You know, I think it's really funny when people say, oh, I never watched the show. Yeah, you did. I was, I was a huge fan of the show. Same thing. I remember originally they had DVD, they had a DVD that I had. They had a weekly, very thin, but like a weekly magazine. They had at one point Housemates faces are on scratchies. Like I had it all. I bought it. I bought all into it. I loved it. I think with a show like Big Brother, what makes it unique and what makes maybe people still want to stop you on the street and ask or feel like they're my friend is just the fact that you are just watching us live our lives. So we do feel like a friend by the end of the day. You know, you watch us get up, you watch us go to the gym, you watch us eat a bowl of cereal. There isn't— yes, we have weekly challenges, but they're mainly for the entertainment of you guys. There's no sort of— you really see—

Tommy: Thanks.

Tully: You're welcome.

Josh: Just monkeys.

Tommy: What is it now then for you that— because I don't know if things— what has the craziness around them like the old school reality shows? Like, what is creating that now?

Josh: Because it's mainstream, isn't it? I went down a rabbit hole of montages on the weekend because I watched Saturday Night Rove. I was like, man, I remember it being better.

Tully: So you saw that one out of the two episodes before it was canned?

Josh: Has it been canned?

Tommy: Oh, it's been canned.

Josh: I predicted it. I don't know.

Tully: I think it's got the record for like quickest departure.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: Departure. But TV's a bad time right now.

Josh: But I went through and I watched the montage. I watched the 2004 montage of Rove and I was like, am I? Because I had it in my head. It was such a great show that I loved watching. And I went back. I was like, no, this is fucking brilliant. And it was even him having hard conversations with Big Brother, like where he was actually like calling people out and stuff.

Tommy: So what are you into then now that's of a similar— what can you draw the similar experience to you loving Big Brother?

Tully: I mean, I still am a reality TV fanatic. I'm not going to pretend that I'm not. I watch it all. I watch overseas versions. Again, though, I just— there's nothing like it. There really isn't. There isn't anything. I think probably Love Island to me feels like the closest thing to Big Brother because apart from trying to fall in love, um, you are just watching them live their lives in one house. Um, that's the closest show to this, that's the closest format I think to Big Brother, and that's the show that I feel like resonates most with me and my experiences. Shows like, and again, hidden camera show, shows like Married at First Sight and The Bachelor, I just, it just feels so manufactured these days. Um, you know, I've heard that with this next season that they're trying to cast men who would agree on camera to be set up with a transgender person So they're only going to push the envelope even more. And the mother hen in me, the sort of the matriarch of reality TV and social media, just really panics for these young people that are going on these shows.

Tommy: Do you remember the show? It was Miriam.

Tully: And it was— Yeah, she passed away recently.

Tommy: Oh, that's sad. It was a transgender woman who all these men were vying for because she was beautiful. And then surprise, guys.

Tully: It's a guy.

Tommy: I've got a penis.

Tully: The winner actually went on the holiday with her. So the prize was if he decided to stay with her after finding out she actually had a penis, um, I think the prize was a holiday. And then he actually went on the holiday with her, I think probably just to save face.

Josh: Well, a trip to Fiji is a trip to Fiji as well.

Tully: He joined the, the lawsuit with everybody else is on the show. Well, so yeah, I mean, she was in also on Big Brother, by the way.

Tommy: Oh really?

Tully: She was on— she was an intruder on Fitz's series of Big Brother.

Josh: Oh, that's right. But is that like, is that transphobic? Is them like doing it as a big reveal?

Tully: This was very early on. Yeah, um, that would absolutely not fly these days.

Josh: Absolutely not. What's the deal with cash when it comes to these reality shows? Like, do you get a certain amount every day that you're on?

Tully: Yeah, you get a weekly allowance, but it's not a lot. Basically how they pitch it to you is that end of the day, even though I never saw it as this, I probably should have thought more about it, but end of the day you're vying for a cash prize. It's it's a reality TV show, but it's also, you know, a competition.

Josh: Free rent as well.

Tully: Well, yeah, well, no, it's not free because you're still paying rent outside.

Josh: Oh yeah, sure. So you couldn't even get your late—

Tully: yeah, yeah. So they see it— they don't see it as you making money. It's not a job. You're trying to win the money. So they just don't— they want you to break even. So I think it was like $500 a week, which at the time my rent was $290 a week. Doesn't— plus you've got bills, you know, it doesn't leave a lot, especially if you've got— you know, we had a mum in there with 2 kids, and I'm sure a mortgage. It's not a lot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So then it's making the decision whether it's viable or not.

Tully: Like I think it's totally— And it's not viable for some people. It's not. And you know, and then you've got to handle all of that. You have to hand your finances over to someone trusted. So I had to give my ex access to all my bank accounts, all my banking passwords. You have to sort out all the direct debits out.

Tommy: God, what did he do when you started kissing Drew?

Josh: Oh shit!

Tommy: She was a she.

Tully: He was a she.

Tommy: Uh, look at that post.

Tully: No, that was the pre.

Tommy: Pre.

Tully: Uh, it didn't go down well. No, no, she didn't drain my bank accounts, which was nice of her.

Tommy: What a great woman.

Tully: Yeah, but she, uh, yeah, it became really awkward. And I remember thinking that in the house, and I remember thinking, uh-oh, oh, she's in charge of all my money right now.

Josh: How much did they set? Because you— I had a vision of what happened in Big Brother and then watching the montages, and I saw how much, like, the producers are setting up, like there's a bit where Sonia Kruger's on the seat talking to Drew and said, oh, what would you say?

Tully: And then here she is.

Josh: What would you say if Tully was here right now? He's like, oh, you know, I'd probably kiss her and say hello. It's like, well, turn around now. It's like, it's a little bit tacky. Like, little, you see what I'm talking about?

Tully: I knew that was going to happen. So that was basically once I got out and assessed the damage and decided I wanted to be with him.

Tommy: Assess the damage.

Josh: I love how you said that. You sound like a panel beater.

Tully: I can tell you now the damage was extensive.

Tommy: The car was a write-off.

Tully: Yeah, well, they were really gentle with me on my eviction night. I think they were worried that I would lose my marbles, but I was then brought back. I was brought back into the show, onto that stage, or into the show 3 times after being evicted, which just never happens. The first time was for an Ask Tully segment where everyone could tweet questions that they weren't able to ask me on my night that I was evicted. So I went back and had a Q&A with Sonia. Then I was brought back into the house for the freeze challenge to let him know that I was single.

Josh: Did they tell you, hey, we want you to go in and say this?

Tully: They called me, Alex called me and said, hey, I've got a proposition for you. And I said, yeah, shoot. Keep in mind at this point, I was pretty alone out here. I had been dealing with the backlash on my own. My girlfriend had left me with my dog. I was taking half the furniture. Like I was eating—

Josh: She took the dog or you kept the dog?

Tully: We were sharing custody, but I wasn't going to be like, hey, I fucked up your life. Also, give me the dog.

Josh: Yeah, sure.

Tully: It was the least I could do.

Josh: It's interesting. I mean, I'm not that much of a dog person, so that's almost a conve— it would be who keeps the dog. Like I'm not happy with that.

Tully: Well, the dog's, I mean, legally in my name, but again, I think I'd done enough damage.

Josh: So if the dog gets lost or whatever and they cheque the chip, you might get a phone call.

Tommy: The dog's in name.

Tully: I didn't know that. When you buy a dog, you have to like register it to somebody. You've really taken me off topic there.

Josh: Sorry.

Tully: Yeah, he called me and he said, look, I've got a proposition for you. And at this point I was, hey, I was really missing him and I was watching every night and it was really hard to watch, you know, my one thing, support network through a screen. He said, do you, you know, would you want to go back into the house for a challenge? And I said, yeah, before I even explained what he wanted me to do, I was like, yes, I mean, absolutely. And he said, we're doing this freeze challenge where Big Brother's gonna, you know, say freeze throughout the week and they have to stop whatever they're doing, and we're gonna throw in a bunch of, um, distractions to try and get them to unfreeze. And we want to send you in.

Josh: Remember this?

Tully: Yeah, great television.

Josh: It was in the montage.

Tully: Great television. And I— and he said, we want you to go in and tell Drew that you're single and try and get him to break the freeze. And I would have said yes to anything if it meant me seeing him again. So yeah, that was interesting. And then basically every time he was up for eviction, which was frequently, I was flown up to the Gold Coast in case he was evicted, which was really taxing on me at the time. You know, this build up, let down, build up, let down, build up, let down. So I knew that they were going to have a big onstage reunion. I knew that was going to happen. They were always going to make the most of that.

Josh: What do you think of the Gold Coast? What's your relationship?

Tully: I love the Gold Coast. It was my home for a long time. You know, you do a lot of stuff pre and post. So I was there for a while. I love the Goldie. I'm still a big-time celebrity up there. They still love me. So it's a nice little ego boost when I'm up there.

Tommy: I would think, I would hope that these reality shows are doing their due diligence when it comes to people's mental states, right? And so you're thinking, you're talking about you're out, you're feeling alone. Like, are they actually looking? And I think about the shit written about these MAF stars, these girls losing their shit. They fucking put on all this weight. It's like, like, yeah, it's because they're probably fucking going crazy.

Tully: Yeah, there's definitely, uh, not enough done. I've spoken out about that in recent months, um, when, you know, we had the second Love Island UK suicide. Um, there definitely isn't enough being done. They offer you sort of the bare minimum. They say, you know, you get a chat with the, um, the show psychologist when you first get evicted. He's the first person you speak to, and then he maybe gives you a call to cheque in a couple of weeks later. But even then, you know, you're basically talking to a puppet of the network. You don't really feel like, you know, you sort of— you try and say, you know, I'm feeling this way, I'm feeling this way, you know, people talk to me on the street. And he kind of just makes sure that you steer the conversation, the blame away from the show and the network. So you don't even feel like, you know, I eventually put my hand up and said, I'm going to find a separate, you know, my own psychologist and you guys are going to pay for it.

Tommy: They did.

Tully: They had to. But there was definitely not enough support. There isn't enough support. There needs to be compulsory check-ins, you know, weekly and then monthly and then six-monthly and then yearly. There needs to be a lot more done for the mental health. There needs to be media training, you know, so that they can handle these interviews, they can handle social media, they know what to do when they're being trolled. There still definitely is not enough being done in terms of looking after the contestants post-show.

Josh: What happens when you come out of the Big Brother house? Like people you went to school with, do you get like random?

Tully: Yeah, we spoke about this in the house. We were like, who's going to come crawling back? There were douchebags, there were boys that I was a bit obsessed with in high school that gave me doughnuts that was suddenly blowing up my Facebook inbox.

Tommy: It was a Facebook back then. Yeah, Facebook.

Tully: Facebook. Yeah. They weren't in my DMs yet. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of people from high school, boys that I was obsessed with, girls that were mean to me at school, people claiming to be your best mate, a guy that you worked with at Maccas when you were 14 claiming to be your best mate.

Tommy: Yeah.

Tully: There's a lot of that happening.

Josh: And did you actually spark any new friendships from that? Like, were you actually— was any of them legitimate?

Tully: Or, um, I mean, I think, you know, there are people that you reconnect with and that you see going out a lot more. You know, I was obviously going out to a lot of events and parties, and I was sort of reconnecting with people on that level. Um, but I was just so acutely aware, like, it's so transparent when that happens. And, and I'm like, if you weren't my friend, but, you know, 6 months ago, you're not my friend now, to be honest. It's, it's where it's so obvious what they're doing.

Josh: That makes sense.

Tully: And all of a sudden, everyone, you know, everyone that has a clothing line or a jewellery brand 'Hey, Brad, I want to send you something,' and you're like, 'Oh, what was that like at the beginning?

Josh: Was it like, um, people sending you shit like directly to your house?' Oh, it was insane, and I was so happy.

Tully: Like, it— I mean, it was, it was such a new— I was like, 'What do you mean this is all for free? Like, this is all mine.' Like, it was bananas. I remember feeling a lot of pressure though to, to wear everything, you know. I'd change outfits 4 times a day just to try and get everything, you know, some airtime. Um, but yeah, I'd open my door and there'd be piles and piles of packages, and I was posting all this stuff for free. And it wasn't until, um, Roxy Jacenko actually reached out to me and said, you know, you could be making money from this and I can help you do it. Um, that I—

Tommy: 50%.

Tully: Yeah, yeah. And terrify you at the same time. Um, yeah, it wasn't until she reached out and sort of said, you know, you can be turning this into a bit of a business that I even thought to do that. I was just psyched for the freebies.

Josh: What did you have?

Tully: I still am psyched for the freebies.

Josh: We all are. Yeah. What was the plan when you were leaving? What were you going to do? Like, what was— because you were doing like social media.

Tully: Yeah, I was working in advertising. I knew I didn't want to go back to that. You're all kind of told to take, you know, there's, there's sort of a procedure you're supposed to do before you go on a show like that. You can't tell your bosses what you're doing, especially if you work in media, because the chances of getting out are just too high. And if it does get out, they'll just drop you and get a replacement. And you've already put so much on the line. It's kind of like the worst case scenario. So you're instructed to take as much leave as you can, so as much as you've got, you know, you know, owed to you. So I took 4 weeks leave, um, secretly was working on a handover, um, guide, you know, after hours to leave behind.

Josh: What was the actual role? What were you doing?

Tully: I was a social media strategist, so I had quite a few clients and I was working quite a big agency, and, and it was still early days for that stuff, so it was a lot of IP that I had to leave behind. It wasn't like I was an accountant manager and I could just pass on to another account manager, or I was a bartender, they could place another bartender. A lot of what I was doing, you know, was up in my brain, and it was hard to explain to people that didn't understand it. And it was very early days, so I was secretly working away at this handover to leave to the poor person that had to step into my shoes. But I knew I didn't want to go back to that. I didn't love it. I was inherently good at it. I was very good at my job, but I just didn't love it. It wasn't creative enough for me.

Josh: Um, so when did your bosses find out?

Tully: So then, yeah, so you take leave. So I said I was going to visit my brother in London, which was true, he was in London. I just didn't go there. And then you write write a letter to your boss, uh, apologizing, explaining, you know, hey, this situation, I wasn't able to tell you, um, obviously I'd love to come back to my position, but I understand if you have to replace me. And then you give it to the producers and they post it out, uh, the night before the show goes to air.

Josh: Wow, how bizarre.

Tully: I heard that it did not go down well. Really? Even, even more funny was the fact that I was supposed to be at Splendour in the Grass that, that weekend, and my ex-girlfriend came with me to lockdown. You can bring one loved one She came with me and then left midway through the week to go to Splendour, which in hindsight, we should have been— I should have just dumped her then. But I said, go, go, go. But she was meeting up with a lot of our friends and none of them were allowed to know. So for that Splendour weekend, she'd constantly bump into my mates who'd be like, where's Tully? She's like, oh, she just went to the bar. So she was lying to my friends that whole weekend pretending that they'd just missed me for an entire weekend until the show aired on Sunday night.

Josh: So did you then have conversations with the boss? You get out like Is there any damage control?

Tully: No, I think if had I wanted, the other thing is you don't know when you're being evicted. I could have been back a week later, like, and how awkward. And I would have probably wanted to go straight back into work and pretend it never happened.

Tommy: Please, please give me my job back.

Tully: So I, you know, you just don't know. So I knew that by the time I was evicted, I knew I didn't want to go back to my job. So I didn't even bother reaching out and being like, hey, so about that job.

Josh: How did you hear that it didn't go well?

Tully: I had friends that I was working with who obviously when they found out I was on the show reached out and were like, oh my God, what the hell? Like, we just saw you on the TV. And I just heard that, yeah, I kind of left them in the lurch a bit and they struggled to replace me because I am, you know, I'm irreplaceable.

Josh: Pass that handover doc.

Tully: That was extensive. I did content create. I think I left them with like 4 months worth of content.

Tommy: So building an audience, I think there's a bunch of stuff you learn over time. You came out and there's instant audience.

Tully: It was, yeah, insane.

Tommy: What's the learnings from having an instant audience?

Tully: I don't think there are a lot. You know, I'm often quick to give— I have a lot of friends who are influencers and bloggers who have built an audience bigger than mine from nothing, just from creating great content or, you know, taking the time out to upload some beautiful content to their blogs.

Tommy: Which is where you learn, right? You're learning about—

Tully: Well, also just like the fact that you've grown that from nothing, just from, you know, giving them what they want, that to me is so impressive. I literally went into a house and came out and I had it like that. It has been hard work keeping them and obviously, you know, that's a job in itself, but I don't think there are a lot of learnings. I think that I'm a very different influencer and blogger to a lot of my friends. People don't follow me for beautifully created content. I think a few years back I was sort of testing the waters and trialling a few new things and I put money towards getting an actual photographer and getting a stylist and doing street style shoots, that bombed. They don't wanna see that, they wanna see a selfie of me. They really are following me to hear what I'm up to. They're not following me to see what I'm wearing. It's mainly just what I'm getting up to in my life. So I haven't really been able been able to figure out what, you know, I haven't really got a strategy to my Instagram. I just post what I'm doing. It's all real time. It's all, I hate having to post things. Like if I can't post immediately, I get really like antsy 'cause I like it to be what I'm up to that day.

Tommy: I think we all try to make sense of it. So you in the role as a social media strategist is having this sort of bird's eye view.

Tully: I can't even use hashtags. Like I look after a few social media accounts for other brands on the slot, like on the flat, on the slide.

Tommy: On the slide.

Tully: It's a big secret, no one knows. On the side.

Tommy: It's like a side hustle.

Tully: I use hashtags for them because they're important, but I don't even use them for myself.

Tommy: And why is it we always, we know what we need to do, but we don't do what we know, right?

Tully: I think because I really, it's not my priority. I really don't mind. When they took away our likes and everyone was panicked about it and people ask me, you know, what do you think about it? I don't give a shit. Like I've never cared about how many likes or comments I get anyway. The stuff that I care about, the conversations that really mean something to me are what happens in my DMs and no one's privy to that. And it's, you know, that's not a number that's shown in my account. So I don't really care how many likes likes or comments I get on my photos.

Josh: What do you think about the personal rebrand? I've had a few rebrands in my life.

Tully: I would love someone to— I need to rebrand, I think.

Josh: It was actually a video series that I wanted to do where it's like, take an individual and it's almost like the new age, like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.

Tully: Do you know who to this day, in my opinion, has had the best rebranding?

Josh: Who?

Tully: Lara Bingle. Oh yeah.

Josh: Well, I guess maybe that.

Tully: She went from being that chick from Cronulla with that terrible reality TV show who no one respected, who was busted with Brendan Favola, wherever the hell she was in the bathroom or in the shower, whatever. Was it Brendan Favola?

Josh: Really? To not great branding.

Tully: You realise we're being filmed, right? To, you know, the super chic Harper's Bazaar cover girl with a Hollywood husband, very private life and two little kids. Yeah. You know, I'm still to this day blown away by her rebranding.

Tommy: I mean, today's rebrand for Josh is the moustache.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's so cool.

Josh: So I never have a mo. So this is, this is new. It's giving me the shits, to be honest. But I mean, what would be like, how many times have you thought about about doing a rebrand? My—

Tully: not my management now, but my management before my management now wanted me to do a rebrand. They wanted me to dye my hair brown, um, and, you know, completely change who I am. I think that—

Josh: what's that? But like, from a personal rebrand point of view, like, I don't know how—

Tully: I think because I was, you know, I'm still called Big Brother's bad girl, and, and, you know, there are still sort of those headlines.

Tommy: I mean, Mr. 97 called you that when you walked in.

Tully: Big Brother's bad girl with her ample assets. I always think my ample assets are always referred to as well.

Josh: Ample assets?

Tully: My tits. I've got good tits.

Josh: And that's like, who's Daily Mail? Daily Mail.

Tully: Tully Smyth shows off her ample assets in tiny black bikini.

Josh: Wow.

Tully: They once called me curvy and I got really panicked. I'm like, wait, does that mean that I've put on weight? What does that mean? What's curvy mean?

Tommy: If you're living your life through Daily Mail's descriptions of you, you fucking better think twice.

Josh: They've got the longest headlines in the biz, don't they?

Tully: They just describe in detail what I'm wearing.

Josh: Yeah. And so the brunette, obviously that's a very slight from a rebranding perspective.

Tully: No, I would argue that's a definite, I'm trying to rebrand myself.

Josh: Mr. 97 used to have brown hair.

Tully: What is with that Justin Timberlake? Imagine he still does.

Tommy: Rachel Vettullo, one of the best colorists in Melbourne.

Josh: She did his hair. So basically I—

Tully: You need a toner, babe.

Tommy: Oh, I know. It's like yellowish. It is yellow.

Tully: It's like fluoro yellow.

Tommy: Yeah, it's not Rachel's fault.

Tully: Like Maggi noodles.

Josh: But yeah, when he walked out of Joey Scandizzo's salon, it was looking crisp.

Tommy: A million bucks.

Tully: I can give you a great purple shampoo.

Josh: Great. Anyway, so he's had the, he had the, uh, the rebrand. But what is the more internally? Are there moments of change that you think I'm going to start doing?

Tommy: So you can change your physical appearance, but you can also—

Tully: Definitely, definitely. I think, um, I think I went through a bad relationship breakdown a few years back and it completely turned, it was, you know, social media played a role in the breakdown and it made me reassess what I was doing and who I wanted to be and who I was putting out there. And I kind of decided that I was gonna start using my platform to talk about things that mattered to me more. I was gonna be more open and honest and transparent. And I spoke more about my anxiety, my mental health in general. And I spoke more about my down days. I spoke more about my mom and her battle with dementia. There was definitely a shift back then, and that's been really well received with my followers. That content is always what does way better than me in a bikini with my ample assets.

Tommy: Um, so you're talking about the stuff that's there already that you're just now bringing to the forefront?

Tully: I think I felt like, um, people wouldn't be interested unless it was shiny and pretty and I had my tits out. I think that was my understanding. And then I, I thought, even if that is the case, it's not sitting well with me anymore. I'm not sleeping well at night with what I'm putting out there. So even if it was just, even if it was going to bomb, but it made me feel better at what I was doing, I wanted to do it. And I've just been lucky in that it's resonated really well with my following and that people seem to appreciate me being transparent and, you know, relatable and flawed.

Tommy: Well, I mean, your sexuality shifting, or I don't know what it is.

Tully: You didn't even know I had a girlfriend. No, I remember.

Tommy: I thought it was the other way. I thought you came out and then you got a girlfriend. No. But you had a girlfriend. Makes sense. I mean, that's a shift. I don't know. I've never been through that.

Tully: That's not even a shift. That's a complete 180. That's like a— yeah, that was a really—

Tommy: I'm being sensitive.

Tully: It was a really crazy time in my life, and it's something that I've tried to figure out since then with different psychologists just because I want to understand what the fuck happened.

Tommy: Are you any closer to having an understanding?

Tully: No, I have no idea. And I've also been told by many people that it doesn't— like, why does it matter? It doesn't matter. But it's just nice to understand. I'd like to understand what happened, where I've come from, where I'm going, why that all transpired. Um, but yeah, that was a huge shift. I mean, I went from being— having a partner and dating girls predominantly for 6 years, which is not— you know, people say, oh, maybe it was a phase. 6 years is a long phase. And these were like 2, 3-year relationships. I lived with my partners, you know, we had dogs. It wasn't like I was just going out to a nightclub, making out with a girl, and going home being like, woo! Like, these were long-term serious relationships, adult relationships. Um, so yeah, I, you know, and I was quite, um, big in the, in the lesbian scene in Sydney. You know, a friend of mine ran monthly parties. My ex-girlfriend was a DJ, you we were quite out and about. And then so to come out of the house and not fit into that anymore, it was a really confusing time for sure.

Josh: How do you find a good psychologist?

Tully: It takes time and it frustrates me and it makes me upset because it is a barrier for people. I think that, you know, it takes so much to get someone to agree to go to the GP to get a referral, then to find a psychologist, then to go to the appointment. That already takes so much.

Josh: Too much admin.

Tully: It's a lot of admin, but also it's scary when you're already feeling overwhelmed with anxiety anxiety or depression, whatever it is, that's like, well, what? That's like 3 appointments. That just seems like it's too much work.

Josh: And because then also when you're not feeling great, you're like, rather than doing that, I can actually do these other 3 things that I know I can just go for a walk and eat better.

Tully: Totally. And then to find someone and then to spend the first hour, you know, just barely breaking the surface on your storey and then to not feel like you understood and then maybe have to go to that all over again with someone new and still, you know, it's a process.

Josh: So what is it like? Do you go in there and then do they just Do you try and give as much context?

Tully: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would always recommend if you know someone who's already seeing one, I think a referral, you know, word of mouth is always a great starting point. If you've got a friend who you like and you think it's on the same wavelength who's seeing someone great, ask them then their name. It's all so strictly confidential. Don't ever feel like they're gonna be talking about you behind your back. It never is the case.

Josh: That's what they would say.

Tully: No, I think that you think that, what, if you know my friend, are you gonna be telling her, you know, all my issues childhood traumas. Um, but then I think, uh, you know, once you get in there, depending on how you're feeling at the time, it might just be a general checkup where you do start at the beginning, you know, when I was 5, this happened to me. Or I've gone when I've had something that's quite pressing and quite debilitating, and I've just walked in there and gone and just blurted out what was happening at that very moment. Yeah. Um, it's just, it's all about you and what you need, you know.

Josh: It's so interesting because I even, uh, my girlfriend's psychologist psychologist, she really, like I assumed that all psychologists are like, oh, you know, you gotta stay calm or whatever. But like Bree's psychologist will even be like, nah, fuck that person. They sound like they're being an asshole. I was like, I can get around that. If it's just a bit of a bitch session.

Tully: It depends what you need. I think that if you need someone who's on kind of on your level, like I've always preferred a female psychologist. I also have found over the years that if they don't know anything about Big Brother reality TV, it's not going to work. Work. They need to have some kind of understanding what that would be like to go through that. You know, someone's like, oh, I don't watch TV. I'm like, this isn't going to work. Um, but yeah, I definitely think that if you need someone to be like, oh, you know, he sounds like a fucking douchebag, you need someone to sort of be able to say that to you. But then I've got friends who, um, from, you know, quite traditional background, their parents are doctors, and she prefers the sort of cold, you know, method. You know, she prefers that sort of— so it just, it's what you need from somebody.

Tommy: It's like a book what, you know, there's so many different types of books that you could read that might not connect with you at some point, but later down the track you read it again, you're like, fuck, that is a penny drop.

Tully: You might need tough love. I personally don't react well to tough love. So if someone's there telling me to pull my shit together and, you know, do better next time, it's just not gonna work. So it's just about figuring out what you need.

Josh: Do you actually say that? Like if you're working with a psychologist and it's not going well, would you, do you like call it out?

Tully: No, it's like when you're getting a haircut and you're looking in the mirror and it's terrible, but you just panicked and you're like, I love it, it's great. And then you go home and cry in your car. No, you just get through the first hour, you pay them a trillion dollars, and then you just vow to never go back.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: I did see on the Shameless community, Bri was showing me there was that whole thing of, you know, how you can get the 10 free sessions.

Tully: Yeah, so the mental health care plan.

Josh: Did you hear about that? I saw that there was something around like people use it like for insurances or whatever in the future. It's hard.

Tully: It's a bit, yeah, that's.

Josh: Which freaks me out a little bit.

Tully: I don't even want to talk about that because I feel like that's just going to scare people off seeking help. But yeah, it's a bit backwards that the government offer this amazing healthcare plan where you can get 10 subsidized— subsidized—

Josh: subsidized—

Tully: subsidized— yep, um, appointments with a psychologist, but you then therefore have a record as needing mental health. And if you go— for instance, I've got a friend who's trying to get into police force at the moment, and he was struggling, and I said, you know, you need to go speak to someone. He's like, I can't I can't, it's going to affect my application. So that's pretty terrifying.

Tommy: One way to stigmatise something.

Josh: I mean, that's a thing. That's why I don't understand.

Tully: I think that if you're going for the police force, it should be a requirement that you see a psychologist regularly. 100%.

Josh: It's almost like going to a PT or something, right?

Tully: Yeah. These people are dealing with a lot of trauma every day. And I think that they'd be better police officers if they were talking to someone about it regularly.

Tommy: But I think like yesterday's episode, we're talking about the human experience being one where there's struggles and there's great times and there's the feeling of fucking calmness. And in the creative endeavors, it's like—

Tully: Calmness. Wow. I don't know if I've experienced much of that.

Tommy: No, no.

Tully: It sounds like heaven. Yeah.

Tommy: Maybe sometimes you can find it, but living in that space entirely is not the human experience, right? So we're talking around creativity and a creative endeavour to make money from. And you're living in this kind of like, you know, ebbs and flows. Like, when are you making your next paycheck?

Tully: That's what I hate about this job. It's like so stressful not knowing, you know, It's such a, I don't know. I don't know what I'm being paid next.

Tommy: I wasn't personally asking.

Tully: Oh, but that stresses me out. Speaking of stress and anxiety, now I feel stressed and anxious.

Tommy: And so how are you living with that as a creative?

Tully: Well, yeah, I mean, it's super stressful. Like that adds so much, a whole other layer to, you know, not being able to sort of plan or even know when it's coming in. It's one of the worst parts about doing what I do. It's funny because people talk about how, you know, not every day is the same. And like, who knows where I'll be next week? And like, that's great and fun.

Josh: And that is fun.

Tully: Fun and great, but it also means you don't know when you're being paid next. And so in terms of like even just organising a direct debit, like when I joined up at my gym and they were like asking to pick a date to have it be direct, you know, taken out of my account, I was like, I don't know what's a safe day. Like who knows what's in my account at any point in time. The 15th, halfway through the month, maybe. Try that, see how it goes. And you know, to be completely transparent, I've gotten text messages being like, hey, this is letting you know your payment's bounced. It's tricky. I don't have any savings. I'm really broke.

Josh: And so what is your relationship with money when you like— Not good. Yeah. What do you spend your money on?

Tully: You see, that's the— it's tricky. I think it's more a case of because it is hard to plan and save. Just when I get a little nest egg together, I'll have a quiet month and I'm having to eat into that for stuff like rent, you know, and phone bills, ridiculous data allowances.

Josh: Data feels like it's going down in price. I reckon like we're probably—

Tully: My phone bill is through the roof.

Josh: Really?

Tully: All the time.

Josh: I feel like it should be, I reckon, wait, because you pay like a lot, you pay like $170 or something.

Tully: I pay like $300 and something.

Josh: For Telstra?

Tommy: Oh, good.

Josh: Vodafone. $300 for Vodafone?

Tully: That's like a good month.

Tommy: There's a real scumbag nature to these phone companies. My wife is paying $149 and she's got half the data I've I've got and she doesn't get to keep her phone at the end. Same fucking company. Why are you doing that? It's a complete rot.

Tully: Have you tried going in and just addressing that?

Tommy: I've asked her. I said it's her problem. Makes me stressed out.

Tully: Listen to me.

Josh: I know.

Tommy: I'm fucking in a panic.

Tully: I know.

Tommy: I'm like, please, can you deal with it? I've got— it's too much for me.

Josh: It feels like it's getting to a point where the data is cheaper. That's all I was saying.

Tommy: It is. America is a different game.

Tully: This is the point where I'm having to tether off my phone in my bedroom because our Wi-Fi in the house is so fucking slow.

Josh: Oh yeah. Well, yeah, the home internet's a whole nother thing. But I had—

Tommy: NBN, don't get me started.

Tully: Oh my God. How long do we have?

Josh: I had 200 megabits up and down at my house. It was like a commercial grade line. It was amazing. But then realised I probably, you didn't need it.

Tully: I can't, I don't, I can't. If I want to stream something from my bedroom, it's quicker just to tether.

Josh: Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? That the hardware hasn't developed.

Tommy: But then, so this is your business and it is the same if you're—

Tully: Are you saying that, do I claim that on tax? Yes, I do.

Tommy: Of course you do. But I mean, so then it's a small aspect.

Josh: It also needs to be important. Like it's an important thing. You need it running.

Tommy: Operating costs of a business. Do you see your thing, your whole, you know, thing that you do as a business? Are you looking at it like that?

Tully: Not really. I probably should do that more. I think you guys both know Jen, my manager. She's great. And she's kind of like my little voice of reason angel on my shoulder. And then I'm my own devil. She's like, you know what? You know, she's so funny. She's like, do you want me to withhold some of your pay every time you get paid and like save it for you? Cause like that's how bad you are at saving. I was like, that is not your responsibility, Jen. You're not my accountant. But yes, please.

Josh: To be clear, the accountants don't do that either.

Tully: No, but she, like, that's how much she knows how bad I am with money. She's like, how about I just pay you half of this paycheck and I'll keep the other half for rainy day?

Josh: Is it Uber Eats?

Tully: Yeah. Oh, that is, I'm so glad my phone is on the ground and I can't reach it. Yeah, Uber Eats is definitely one of them.

Tommy: Well, because you'd order?

Tully: No, because I'd show you how many times I've ordered from McDonald's.

Josh: From Macca's?

Tully: 187 times.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: From Crown McDonald's.

Josh: What do you get?

Tully: Depends on the snack. If I'm hungover or drunk, it's a medium Quarter Pounder I need that juicy, juicy, that little like dribbles out the oil. If it's like a, I'm a bit of a grazer. I eat like 8 meals a day, but they're all small. If it's like before an event and I'm peckish, but like I don't want to eat before the event because there's going to be food there, like a sneaky cheese.

Josh: Okay.

Tully: Or even like a Happy Meal sans the toy.

Josh: Will you finish the whole thing if you're grazing?

Tully: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I don't eat the chippies, but I, yeah, I eat the whole cheeseburger. I mean, something yay big.

Josh: Yeah, no, I agree.

Tully: But yes, I can order, I think My limit, my, sorry, my record was 5 orders in one day.

Josh: Oh, wow. So that's what gets you, isn't it? If you can try and, I like to treat my Uber Eats like a Costco order. Just fucking get as much as possible.

Tully: Yeah, no.

Josh: Big meal, big food.

Tommy: Winter's coming, eat up.

Tully: I once, I think that day I'd come home, I got home at 4, which is a late night for me these days. And I'd ordered a kebab.

Tommy: At 4 AM?

Tully: At 4 AM, eaten that, spewed that back up a couple of hours later. Wait for it. Reordered the same kebab at 11 AM and ate it again. Then didn't do that one up. Then was hungry again, got KFC. Then I got something for dinner. Then I got a dessert delivered to me. So I think that was my bad.

Tommy: To be honest, I've got a 2.5-year-old.

Tully: I think about if I was old enough to be married or have a 2.5-year-old.

Tommy: I don't look, thank you.

Tully: You look younger than me. You probably are younger than me.

Tommy: I am. I'm 31.

Tully: I'm 31.

Tommy: I'm 32 next month.

Tully: 87.

Tommy: 87. Yeah.

Josh: He's 88.

Tommy: I would be worried if I was, if I had a son. Talking about financial situations like this. I know you speak very fondly of your dad. We filmed the milkshake asking for a friend questions, and I loved how you talked about it.

Tully: Can I be honest with you? I was a bit drunk.

Tommy: Were you?

Tully: Could you tell?

Josh: No, I mean, you were very happy to be there.

Tully: So I like performing anyway. That wasn't why. No, so I'd come from an event, a lunchtime event, and I I was really nervous because of who was attending the event and who I was sitting next to. And so I had one too many drinks and I had to come and do that.

Josh: And I was like, oh, you're fine.

Tommy: I was like, oh, you're great.

Tully: I got a bit cut doing this.

Tommy: You were talking about your dad fondly. What does dad think about, I guess, this aspect of acting?

Tully: Yeah, dad, I mean, bless his cotton socks. Phil Smyth is just such a saint. He's such an angel. I can really do no wrong in his eyes. I've done some dumb shit and he still supports me 110%.

Tommy: That's a dad for you.

Tully: Yeah, I remember coming out of Big Brother and seeing him and said, I just said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry if I embarrassed you or if I let you down. And he was like, pumpkin, you know, you were yourself and that's all I can ask for. And then I said, did you get to see my tits? He goes, no, I didn't see your tits. I later found out that he did see my tits. He was just protecting me. Look, it stresses him out. It does. He, you know, I've often called him panicked. I've had to borrow money off him before for rent, off my brother as well. And it does panic them a bit. They just want to see me happy and they wanna see me not stressed about money. But end of the day, he knows that I'd much prefer to be poor and doing something that I'm passionate about than to be back in advertising making $100K a year and be miserable. Money's never been important to me. We had a lot of it when we were younger and then when mom got sick, we lost it all. And so for most of my life, we've had no money and I've just learned to get by and we just always figure it out. And you know, it's very important to my brother. That's what he's driven by. That's what he works really hard for. And he's younger than me and he's about to buy a house and congratulations to him. And he's definitely earned it, but it's just not what drives me in life.

Tommy: It's hard because I mean, we've been talking about making money through doing the creative thing we love. And I'm very much the same. I can't take a job that's paying $150 grand that I feel like shit every day. It would kill me. I'd be a shit husband, a shit dad. A shit mate, all of these things.

Josh: And shit employee.

Tommy: Sure, I do, definitely.

Josh: You'll be doing a shit job for the 100%.

Tommy: I'm doing the worst job. But if all goes to shit, I will be okay if you do hire me.

Josh: Good sell.

Tommy: And so it's important, right? Because money makes the world go round.

Tully: Unfortunately, yeah.

Tommy: And so we need some of this shit.

Tully: And so I think that's why I've been so, so fucking happy with this new podcast I'm doing with Mamma Mia, because for the first time I'm being paid to do something that I really love to be— I'm loving to do. Um, you know, not that I haven't enjoyed some of the work I've been doing, you know, as an influencer. There's definitely jobs that come through where I'm like, am I literally getting paid to do this right now? This is the dream.

Tommy: Coachella, baby.

Tully: Yeah, seriously. I mean, that was, that was one. VIP Coachella with Revolve. Insane. I was just in Cambodia with Wella and I was paid to be there. Insane. How am I being paid to travel? That is literally the dream. But it's still not not, you know, fulfilling that sort of that job satisfaction feeling. And that's what I've gotten recently from the podcast, plus it pays my rent. Like, you know, that's what you want.

Tommy: I mean, it's— it is hitting the jackpot. That's what I think about. If you get to wake up every day doing the fucking thing you love and still make rent, that's the dream.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing too is for Tommy and I, we're like obsessed with not working for anyone else, which can happen, which I, I guess like you're a great example of someone who like you're doing— you, you can work for someone and still be satisfied. I think it's all in the storey as well.

Tully: Yeah, but I am very much like— it's definitely— it's funny, I've had a few jobs over the years where I was doing a 3-day-a-week, um, gig with a PR agency as a freelancer, and it is very funny to go back to that life when you haven't been doing it for a long time. Like, even when I was, um, up at the Mamma Mia offices doing my podcast, uh, for those 2 weeks being in the office, you know, at 8:30 every morning and leaving at 6. Like that was a shock to this. I was exhausted. Yeah.

Josh: We know how to quit. You send a letter and then you just wait. And appear on a TV show. Just do something with the time.

Tommy: You become a good employee, right? I think it's, I take my hat off to people who can stick it out and do the 9 to 5.

Josh: What's a perfect employee day? Like you get a, it's very similar. It's just like you don't have the stress of worrying.

Tully: There is something nice though. I think when you've been doing what I've been doing for so long, there is something nice. I mean, there are bonuses and negatives to both sides of the coin, obviously. But there was something nice about having a routine, getting up, having my toast. I caught the train for fuck's sake. I don't do public transport. I don't even have a Myki here. Like I really don't. If Jen wants me to get the train, the trav into the city, or if I go to the footy, I have to like, I'm like, does anyone have a spare Myki with some dollars on it? 'Cause I don't have one.

Josh: I can relate. Did you buy a new outfit and stuff? I feel like when people get there—

Tully: A workout fit? No, but I did have to make sure 'cause I dress kind of a little bit alternatively anyway. I had to make sure I wasn't I wasn't wearing any, like, you know, rude— I've got, like, a t-shirt with drawn-on boobs on it. I was like, oh, probably shouldn't wear that one today. Although Mum and Mia, they probably love it.

Tommy: Is that the one that says Bad Girl of Big Brother on it?

Tully: No, no.

Josh: Have you ever done merch? Your own merch?

Tully: No, I haven't, but my friend's got some singlets printed. There was some gag in the show about me being, um— Tim made some joke about me being from the Sydney socialite bitch club or something, and my girlfriend's got some singlets, some basketball singlets made with SSBC on it, which was kind of cute when they— when I was evicted. But no, never done merch.

Josh: Talking about the food thing before, I feel like it's one of those things for me anyway where it's like, uh, I can laugh at my Uber Eats stuff, but then it also makes me really sad because I'm like, oh, like I am actually eating really shit food and I don't feel good. How do you reconcile that? Like taking off the, ah, it's all—

Tully: you know what, I won't pretend that I haven't been blessed with some great genes. Um, me and my brothers are all quite tall and just naturally him. I— in saying that, I work out, you know, regularly. Um, that's really important. I do that mainly for my mental health, to be completely honest. Um, even when I was, you know, training 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day, my body shape doesn't— didn't really change. I didn't— I didn't get super toned, I didn't get buffed up. I had nothing really change. It's more for my mental health. Um, but, you know, it's such a cliché, but it really, really is all about balance. And I, I drink a lot, you know, I party, I go out, um, I I don't eat a lot of McDonald's. I eat a lot of pizza.

Josh: Do you eat salads?

Tully: Yeah, if it comes like as a side, like I'm not gonna, I never order like a salad for a main meal.

Josh: See, '97, you criticise me so much for my lack of salads. Balance, Tully's talking balance. And it doesn't involve salads.

Tully: I was dropped as an F45 ambassador. Seriously, because I was posting too many videos and storeys of me eating pizza and garlic bread and burgers. Yeah, I wasn't betraying the F45 lifestyle.

Josh: Could you get us a deal with Good Chef? Is it Good Chef that you do? Chef Good.

Tully: I'm currently trying Chef Good. I have done work with YouFoods before, which I'm a big fan of.

Josh: Well, because I feel like the idea of just getting stuff delivered and you don't have to think about it—

Tully: oh, it's the best. And I don't cook. Like, I'm, you know, I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I'm single as fuck, so cooking is just not happening. I'm either eating out or I'm ordering in. So to have something that's healthy, portion controlled— there's the other issue, you know. I order a pizza, I'm like, I'm just gonna have a couple of slices, and before you know it, you've eaten the whole pizza. Um, knowing that you You know, it's portion controlled, it's fresh, you pop in the microwave and that's all you eat for the night.

Tommy: It kind of sounds like you don't have a plan B.

Tully: For food?

Tommy: No, no, no, for food.

Tully: This just got real. I feel attacked.

Tommy: No, not food, but as in the career stuff. Like it sounds like you're willing to live in the space of feeling a bit uncomfortable.

Tully: Yeah, I mean, I definitely, something changed. There was a shift end of last year and I thought I don't want to be doing it just I'm sick of not feeling fulfilled. I'm sick of not feeling challenged.

Josh: What was just this? What's just this?

Tully: Influencing. You know, I didn't want to just be taking selfies for another year. And I said I had a few ideas of where I wanted to go. Podcasting was definitely one of them, and that's come to fruition just coincidentally. But I kind of decided that this year would be the year where I made a change, and that's worked out for me. So I think I'll always be doing the influencing stuff as long as people want me to do it. Why would you turn that away? I'm not gonna say no, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna take a grand for doing it. Like, you're not gonna say that's ridiculous and stupid. So for as long as they want, they'll have me. I'll definitely continue to do that. But the podcasting stuff has definitely brought me some personal satisfaction.

Tommy: How much of this stuff is actually by chance? You said the podcast by chance has happened, but if you're thinking I wanna be doing something different, isn't that kind of—

Tully: Well, to be honest, I mean, I think what got me that gig was doing these. I was a guest on a few other podcasts that had done well, had gone, made the rounds. I'm sure someone heard that or saw that and put it forth, and that's why I got the call-up. So I guess maybe my background in journalism and my ability to tell a storey has helped. I don't think it's just I've fallen and slipped into it. Obviously there's some, I've got some kind of skill. If not, why am I here?

Josh: Well, you said in an Insta storey that one of your dreams was to do radio.

Tully: Yeah.

Josh: And this was sort of podcasting.

Tully: This is like radio 2019.

Josh: Exactly. And so when you— because a bunch of people did it. Chrissy Swan is a good example of someone from— yeah, Fitzy. Was that on the cards? Were you pushing that in there?

Tully: No, definitely not. And people don't believe me when I say that. And I know that I maybe wasn't— there definitely were people in the house that went in there with the idea of coming out with a media career, be it presenting, radio, whatever, acting. Acting. That was never on the cards for me. I think right up until I was evicted, I thought I'd go back to my job in advertising. And then doing all the radio stuff that you do after the show, the Chats with Sonia, you know, I was a panellist on a couple of morning shows in Sydney for a while. I loved that. And I was good at it. And it was really exciting. So that's kind of when I thought, oh, maybe this is something that I could be doing now. But that never— again, I mean, that never came to fruition. You know, I never got my own TV show. I didn't become a radio host. I didn't get a regular TV gig.

Josh: With people?

Tully: Yeah, definitely were. And, you know, and there's been talks of me doing— going on Home and Away, and there's been all kinds of chats like that over the years, um, doing other reality TV shows, but it's never come to fruition. So even when I got the call about this podcast, I kept it to myself for ages because I was like, I'm just so, um, prepared for this to be pulled out from underneath me again.

Tommy: I mean, you've been doing the— so if you were to look back at, say, 5, 6 years ago, and like, what's the future of work It's like you're in this new space, this weird influencing space. And then it's like now the weird new space is getting paid to do a fucking podcast. Yeah, that's the weird new future.

Tully: Yeah, right. I never thought that I'd be doing influencing stuff. Still, there's no way. Like, no way. Like, I thought that, you know, but even I thought, okay, I might get into the next series of Big Brother. I might get that much time. So just under a year before people stop caring about me. And that was 6 years ago. Go. But you could never have predicted that at the time. There's just no way.

Josh: And so when you, uh, when did you find Jen? And when, when did it turn in from you doing it on your own to having support?

Tully: So yeah, so Roxy Dusenko was my first manager at Ministry of Talent, um, in Sydney. And then I was with another, um, agency. And then I met Jen. Jen actually booked me to go on an Insta Meet. It was, um, very forward-thinking back then. She was on the ball even, even back then. So she had me, a few other influencers, um, and personalities. So there was Nadia Bartel, Cheryl, Lindy Klim, and a few other smaller influencers. And she had us all come to a resort that she was looking after in Bali. And basically we just were there for 4 days and we knew we had to Instagram the fuck out of the trip. And I met her on that trip. She was still working in PR and I was, I'm thinking about moving to Melbourne. And she said, come, just do it. She's like, I'll be your friend, I'll hang out with you. And so I made the move and she's one of my first friends here. And she still worked in PR for a while after that. And then eventually she started day managing management, and I watched that flourish. I was a bit apprehensive, and she knows this, I was a bit apprehensive too. I think people assumed I'd be her first talent, and we'd be out at events and they'd be like, oh, what's it like, you know, how's Jen going? And it was kind of awkward for a while there because I'd be like, I'm actually not with Jen. Um, but I just wanted to see, you know, it was my bread and butter too, and it was my career, and she didn't have a lot of experience in talent management. She had a lot of experience in PR, um, and marketing and that kind of thing, but not in talent management. And so I wanted to sit back and watch her for a bit to make sure she knew what she doing. And she was killing it. And I was really impressed with everything she was doing and how far she'd grown and progressed. So I, um, I signed over.

Josh: What makes a good manager?

Tully: She— I think it's funny because I sometimes, I make sure she gets the credit she deserves because I've had quite a few managers, quite a few high-profile big ones. And she's by far and away the best I've ever had. And I'm not just saying that because she's my best friend slash manager. She's really proactive. And I think that that makes her stand out from the crowd. She doesn't just take the emails that I forward to her or that get sent to her, as you know, inquiring about working with me. She will go out and she will hustle hard for me. She will see that, for instance, Pantene are working with another influencer from another agency, and she'll go, oh, what the hell, why aren't we working with them? And she'll cold call, she'll approach them, and she'll say, hey, you know, I've seen you guys have been doing some work in the influencer space. We've got Tully, we've got XYZ, they're great, here are their stats, would love to work with with you. That just does not happen at a lot of agencies, and what— it's what makes her stand out from the crowd.

Tommy: I know you should do talks. Like, have you spoken to kids in front of a bunch of kids?

Tully: No, it's funny you say that because I saw a psychic recently and she said that I should— that's where I'm gonna— what I'm gonna be doing.

Josh: This is the Bumble event. I feel like everyone's being seen.

Tully: The line was too big for her. Yeah, no, I have one I see once a year. I think she's great, and she said that I will be doing motivational talks at schools talking about anxiety and self-love and trolling and stuff like that.

Tommy: Well, I think the storey in the— I don't want to do selfies anymore but it's like it's part of the journey, right? And I think you've got a good take on it.

Josh: You've got a lived experience.

Tommy: You've had an experience that no one will probably have. Like most people won't have going into a fucking Big Brother, like going into a CCTV house. Every room is filmed. It's like, and then coming out of it, I think it'd be great.

Tully: Yeah. Thanks. Well, if you're out there, I'm down.

Tommy: Brighton Grammar. I don't need to get tattooed.

Tully: If you've realised that I do like the sound of my own voice, voice. So I'm happy to, and I love a microphone.

Josh: Do you have days off? Like, do you have annual leave? Do you go somewhere where it's not to take photos?

Tully: Yeah, I think it's really nice these days when I get to go on a trip that's not a job, you know, because those jobs, everyone's like, oh, you're so lucky you get to travel. And I absolutely am. But sometimes, you know, they're wanting 3 posts from you a day. That's a lot. That's a lot of content. It's a lot of thinking, okay, I gotta wait, I gotta wear a cute outfit. I gotta, you know, that wall's kind of cool. What What about that? You know, the bath over there is cool. So it's really nice when I get to go away and not have to do that. Not have to cheque in, not have to do a story, do a room tour. It doesn't happen often, but it's really nice when I get to do that.

Josh: Well, I guess it's sort of once you start playing like the Contra game or whatever, all of a sudden going to, if you're used to going to like a really nice hotel and getting the best room and you just have to do some post. Oh, it's a whole other race for sure. And then like being like, ah, in Phuket trying to negotiate the one room up for an extra 50 bucks a night. It's funny.

Tully: Like it's such a first world problem and like a tiny violin kind of deal. But you know, when you're sent to, when you're always VIP at festivals, when you get, you know, sent to, when you go to movie premieres in gold class, when you do a job with someone and they fly you first class to then go back and like live your actual life on your budget and be like, oh, okay, so I'll just take the king room with no balcony. If there's a window, that's good. No window, that's fine. Fly economy, you know, with everybody else in the Paul Alun lines at the festival. Festivals. It is funny.

Josh: What are you learning from Social Squad, your new podcast?

Tully: Out now. Um, it was top of the chart, number one for over a week. Um, yeah, no, it's out every Wednesday, so get amongst it on every podcasting app. I've actually learned a lot. I, I, I've chatted with a variety of different women, businesswomen, entrepreneurs, influencers, some of whom I've followed myself for years, and was a bit starstruck and a little bit giddy understanding them. And the others that I wasn't familiar with, but I'm now obsessed with. But I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about these business women because as you said before, I haven't really ever considered myself a business woman. I haven't really ever considered my Instagram a business, but it is end of the day. And these women though, they're so switched on. They're so, I'm like, I'm enamoured by them and how hard they work and how many side hustles they've got going on, how many other businesses they've got going on as well as their Instagram. It's been pretty eye-opening. And I think that that's why I am excited about the show because if it's been eye-opening for me and I'm in the industry, it's going to be, you know, really interesting for everybody else.

Tommy: Well, they're real conversations. They're not just an image show.

Tully: And I think having me host it and having me be the interviewer and having me there to chat and bounce ideas off and sort of be like, oh yes, same, me too. I think that helped get these people to open up a bit more. You know, when I ask them questions, you know, like what's the weirdest DM you've ever been sent? And they kind of look at me a bit panicked, like, oh, like, can I say that? And I'll be like, oh, well, I've been asked in a photo of my feet. And they're like, oh yeah, me too. And it kind of gets them to open up a bit more.

Tommy: I know there's another one that you spoke about at the Milkshake shoot that you got asked to be in a porno.

Tully: Yeah. Yeah. That's one of my favourite stories.

Josh: That got cut from the Milkshake shoot.

Tully: It does cut all my juicy stuff.

Tommy: How much, how much did they offer?

Tully: They offered me $100K to be in a porno with two well-endowed Guys, I can read the email if you want.

Tommy: I would go and like look into the people. Like I'm fascinated by who's the person.

Tully: The email address was bundyboy1990@hotmail.com. So they also instructed me to be clean shaven. There was lots of instructions in that email. I just think I'm worth more than $100K.

Tommy: Yeah, it's so fucking bizarre.

Tully: You know, it's a bit roast. You want a bit more than $100K, don't you?

Josh: Yeah, if you weren't going to do uncut, like a Big Brother, if they didn't have uncut, $100 grand is—

Tully: Look, I've always said that if worse comes to worse and Drew and I have to film a video and get it leaked and get it paid for, that's one thing, you know, having sex with someone you're actually having sex with is one thing. But yeah, I don't think I need to be involved with two men.

Josh: Is the— so Instagram's one platform that's obviously doing extremely well. As well. Do you have the sense of where's the next one? Where do I need to be building?

Tully: No, again, I've been told that TikTok is where it's at. I refuse to accept it.

Josh: Tommy's on TikTok?

Tommy: It is.

Josh: 80,000 views he got?

Tully: TikTok is just Vine with a new skin.

Tommy: Well, the thing is, yeah, they're just, so the platforms just opened up the floodgate, right? It's like Instagram when, yeah, yeah. There's a floodgate, there's water. Funny thing is, now there's water sinking over it, right?

Josh: And then it goes, I always assumed that the gate would have just been like that. You got to watch the video for this, guys. But you've actually, yeah, but it's going down.

Tommy: There's water going. And so right now there's water going in, there's water going in, and then they've gone and it's just pouring and you're getting sucked down into the hole, which is TikTok.

Josh: TikTok's the hole.

Tommy: TikTok is the hole.

Josh: And you're the water.

Tully: I'm someone who like, unless I'm an early adapter, I refuse to be a late adapter. So like I haven't watched any Game of Thrones, haven't watched Lord of the Rings, haven't watched Breaking Bad.

Josh: Star Wars? Because of course I haven't, I haven't seen Star Wars.

Tully: I have two younger brothers, so I grew up with Star Wars. But if I'm not an early adapter, if I'm not being able to talk about it with everybody real time, I just refuse. So I've already— I'm too late for TikTok. I'm also too old for TikTok.

Josh: Well, I don't know, we got a new haircut just for TikTok.

Tully: You need a crash course.

Tommy: But how do you It's just, Tully, how do you challenge this thinking of yours? Because is it— does it serve you? I'm doing this at the moment going, what do I fucking think? And then what is the opposite of that? And maybe that's actually true, right?

Josh: Playing the theatre sports game.

Tommy: How do you go— how do you, how do you have that mindset and ever then win on another platform? Because being an early adopter is fucking hard. You've got to have some either accidental stumble into this thing you've downloaded or be on— have your foot in the pole, finger on the pole.

Tully: I've kind kind of the way I've always looked at my career and what I do is I've always found myself to be lucky. I've always thought, oh, I'm lucky to still be getting paid to do this. And so I'm ready for it to end anytime. You know, when people talk about, I think there are definitely a lot of people in my industry and even some of my friends who, if Instagram, you know, if Instagram crashed tomorrow, they would be fucked. But I have always had confidence in the fact that I've got other skills and talents and I have other things to offer. And so I've never been concerned worried about being left behind or not adopting the next app or not having the followers or not having the engagement rate. It's never concerned me. Like, I'm kind of prepared for everything to stop tomorrow, um, and I'm confident in myself and in my ability and in my brain that I have other things to offer and other ways to make money.

Tommy: That's a good answer.

Josh: I think that— I think it's like relaxing. Like, of course, yeah, I find it calming because I think like there's a confidence where Tommy and I are at is like we need— like, we don't have an order— like, we've got our audience here, but it's like we built this from nothing. And so it's the thing that got us to there was doing all this stuff.

Tully: And so it's constantly chasing your tail.

Josh: Yeah. And so there is something nice about being like, fuck it.

Tully: I think that in a weird, like in a weird liberating way, like, don't you guys just love it? You know, there's only been a couple of times and I can think of in memory, I think maybe 2 or 3 where Instagram has been down for more than a second. It's been down for like half an hour and an hour. And they're always hilarious tweets. Everyone goes to Twitter and they're always hilarious tweets being like, I just met my housemate for the first time. Time. Um, but isn't there something really like exciting and liberating about that? Like, holy shit, is this over? Is— are we all— I kind of know something about it makes me— I'm excited for that next.

Josh: Well, I mean, there's a book, Digital Minimalism, by a guy named Cal Newport. He did another book called Deep Work, which is like, uh, he talks about shallow work, so the day-to-day stuff that we'll be doing, and focusing on things like writing a big book rather than doing individual tweets?

Tully: Well, I think even Big Brother, they— there was a lot of chat. They pitched me as a social media strategist, and there was a lot of chat, you know. Even I remember being on stage with Sonia Kruger before I went into the house, and she said, you know, oh, here's the big question: how are you going to cope without your phone? And that was a lot of my post-eviction chats were also like, how did you go without your phone? Um, that was one of the best parts about it. Yeah, connecting with people, making friends, making connections with none of those distractions, computers. I mean, there was no music, which was horrendous, but we had nothing to do but talk to each other. And I, to this day, think that that's why, you know, that my bond with my ex-boyfriend Drew was so strong because we— it's kind of like dating in the '90s.

Josh: Didn't have phones. It makes sense.

Tully: We just talked so much. I know I can tell you about, you know, things that he was scared of when he was a child, memories of him in the playground as a kid. Like, I know so much about him. About him that we would— I, I know more about him than I do of any of my other relationships that went on for years and years and years and years and years because you just connect on this deeper level that we just don't do these days.

Josh: So have you digital detoxed? Have you done that? Have you turned off the tap?

Tully: Um, when my mum passed away last month, I, I was off it for a couple of weeks. It just wasn't where my head was at. Um, but I don't— it doesn't, it doesn't stress me out enough to need to do that. I don't get to the point where I'm like, oh, it's 10 PM, I'm gonna put my phone down and just switch off. Um, if it's causing me to stress, if my, if my Instagram's blowing up or, you know, the trolls are at me for a day, I just put my phone down and read a book instead.

Josh: You've spoken a lot about your mum on other podcasts about the struggles with dementia. What's the grieving process been like with her passing away?

Tully: It's been an interesting one. I don't know what I expected it to be like. I've, you know, I think that, I guess I had an idea in my head about how I would react. I thought out of everyone in my family, I was the angriest that she was still alive. I was the angriest that she was still stuck in this sort of no man's land. And so I think that I was— I, I thought that, you know, I'd get the phone call that she was on, you know, close to passing away, and I would step into gear and I would hold it all together. And then we got a call, um, about a year ago saying that she was going into, well, as close as palliative care as she could get into, uh, and that really fucked me up. I, I was really— I don't know why, but it just really threw me. When we got the phone call last month, um, saying that she'd taken another turn, I don't know whether it's because I had that initial shock reaction or just where I was at in my life at the time, but I— it, I— it kind of played out the way I thought it would play out. So I got my stuff together, I went to Sydney, I spent 3 days with her, she passed away, and I pretty much, um, along with my eldest brother Scott, we organised the entire funeral. I just went into organisational mode, you know. We had the meeting with the funeral planner, we— I picked the flowers, I put glad show together. I was the only child to speak at the funeral. Um, I just did what needed to be done. I haven't really had that moment of— and everyone's waiting for it, even my family. You know, Dad said to me, he's like, oh, you know, we're all so proud of how you've handled it. We all thought you'd— I was like, thought I'd what? Like I'd lose my shit? Um, and I haven't really had that moment. I'm— I don't know, I'm kind of like waiting for it. Yeah.

Tommy: Um, you find talking about it is helpful?

Tully: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that I, I that being able to, you know, I did do a couple of podcasts about it and spoke about it quite soon after losing her. And I think that that was a way of me channelling my anger into raising awareness and raising funds. My brother did a, had a charity event where we raised over $20,000 for him and his mates to shave off their beards, which was great. And I think that that made me feel like I was doing something useful with my pain, which probably helped. And then obviously this podcast with Mamma Mia came about very, very, very soon after too. And I've been able to throw myself into that and focus on that. So I think they've been blessing in disguises. It's nice to think that maybe that's all come about because of Mum, you know, maybe she's looking down on me, or that I was able to sort of— now that I was able to sort of pack that away finally, that my mind was clear to focus on other things that I've not been able to sort of put my time to.

Tommy: But maybe the gratitude for the stuff that's happening for you as well.

Tully: Yeah, for sure. And I think that it's definitely given me a platform to talk about dementia awareness and to raise awareness, which is very important to me, and, and it has been important to me. And, and if I can make a dent in that, in raising funds and finding a cure, then, um, you know, the 23 years of having— not having my mum around, you know, wouldn't have been for nothing.

Josh: Yeah, I think it's, um, it's an interesting one because it's, uh, the end of her pain. She was obviously be, uh, in a lot of pain. But, and, but I guess you can, you could say, oh, there's a bit of, there's a bit of sweetness to it.

Tully: Sure. And I think that because I, we lost her in most ways 23 years ago, that shock factor isn't there. I don't feel a sudden emptiness. I'm not going to call her and having to remind myself she's not there. I haven't had a mum since I was 17, 18 years old. So whilst there was obviously still pain and there's definitely been a shift, and I definitely feel her absence, there isn't that sort of like, my life hasn't changed.

Josh: I wonder how that affects you though, because I feel like that would be the— because it is such a complex issue, your— the pain that you're experiencing would be, I'm guessing, really different to the— to that other version.

Tully: Yeah, it's definitely affected. I think as an adult, and, you know, I think as you get older and you sort of want to do more work on yourself and you want to look in, you know, into yourself and be more self-aware, I've definitely now in the last couple of years realised how much that has affected me as an adult. I have some, you know, severe abandonment issues, um, amongst many other things, um, which probably why I'm single. But, uh, yeah, it's definitely— I think, you know, as my dad's psychologist said to him, you know, we've been grieving her this whole time. It's been a huge grieving process this entire time, which is exhausting in itself. So there is definitely a sense of release, um, but at the same time, I still— my mum still died, you know, and there is still that, that you never— nothing ever prepares you for Yeah.

Josh: Going to the funeral and speaking to family, what was that whole experience like?

Tully: It was a lot because I, I don't know if you guys have seen photos of my mum, but I am the spitting image of her. And a lot of those people hadn't seen us since we were quite young. And I think it was quite confronting for a lot of them. They said that to me. I've heard that from their mouths. A lot of them found it hard to even say hello to me because I look a lot like my mother. It was nice. I think that, you know, dementia is— it's tough. It's tough for everybody. It's tough for the people around. It's tough for her friends and family. And we did lose touch with a lot of people in her life that for whatever reason, Dad became a bit more of a recluse taking care of her. You know, people found it hard to go visit Mum. So there are a lot of people there that were dealing with their own issues, their own guilt that I ended up somehow having to, you know, I was comforting a lot of people which felt weird. I was like, why am I hugging you? Why are you crying? It was a weird one. It was a really weird one. And also then the other factor of a lot of the people in my life now, my close friends, and I had a lot of beautiful friends fly out from Melbourne to Sydney for the funeral. Nearly all of them, no one had met mum. So they were attending a funeral for someone that they'd never met. That was also an interesting aspect to it. I think a lot of them struggled to humanise her until, you know, I did— I made a slideshow that, you know, I, I put a lot of effort into the slideshow to try and tell us the storey of her life. And I think that— I mean, I could hear it behind me— that was when a lot of people, um, lost it, because I think that, um, made her human and put her in context with us and our life and my dad, um, which a lot of people in that room had never experienced or seen for themselves.

Josh: How, how did those— how did the experience with your mum shape you? Do what you think as a person?

Tully: Well, I'd like to think that it made me a stronger human being. If it didn't, then I'm definitely more resilient. Um, you can pretty much chuck anything at me these days and, and it won't stick.

Tommy: Except that kebab.

Tully: Except that kebab, which came right up. That came right up. That was all the vodka Red Bulls. Uh, look, it's, it's— I'm very maternal. Um, I'm, I'm a carer, I'm a lover, I, I fuss over everybody. Um, but yeah, it's affected me in negative ways too, for sure. I'm convinced that everybody I love is going believe me. Um, I struggle, you know, I'm— I crave, um, motherly figures and female role models in my life. I don't have a lot of them. Um, my aunt on my dad's side has been amazing, but my mum's sister was pretty much MIA the entire time, which was tough for me. Um, it's definitely affected me, and I'm finding out more and more about how just the, the extent of that as I get older and do more work on yourself.

Josh: And the psychology stuff, like when something big like this happens, do you make a phone call straight away and book that in knowing that's going to be hard?

Tully: Yeah, do you know what, I think again I've been working on it a lot over the years. I feel like it's been a process that I'm already well into. We always knew this was going to happen, we just didn't know when. Um, the thing that confuses me the most with that, and the thing that I still struggle with for my psychologist, is, is the anger part of it. I think that when someone gets I think when a parent or anyone really, a loved one gets sick or dies before their time, the knee-jerk reaction is to sort of turn them into this evangelistic figure. You sort of put on this pedestal. Suddenly they have no flaws. They were perfect.

Josh: Every funeral, it's like everyone seems to be great.

Tully: Right, exactly. And I think that it's taken a while, and I'm still working on it with my psychologist, to admit and deal with the fact that I am very fucking angry angry about it. That's not something that comes naturally to me. I don't want to say that I'm angry. I don't want to, you know, when she tries to get me to say things and I'm like, no, you know, it wasn't her fault. Like, she didn't pick to get sick. She, if she could have chosen to not be sick, she would have chosen that, you know. She didn't mean to leave us when she left us. Um, and that's all well and good, and I know that, you know, I'm not an idiot, but it doesn't mean I'm not fucking angry about it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tully: And that's been, I think, the hardest thing for me to sort of work through is, is just the anger. At the fact that it's just such a fucking unfair thing to have happen to me.

Tommy: What about for people around you when you are going through something like that? Is there a way you want people to act?

Tully: Yeah, I think that's something that, again, a lot of my friends are struggling with now as an adult. I've had a lot of friends from high school who either attended the funeral or listened to a few of my podcasts recently reach out and say, I'm so sorry. I wish I'd known what you're going through. I wish I'd been there for you.

Tommy: More.

Tully: But end of the day, I mean, I was 15 years old. I wasn't going to school and wanting to talk about it. In fact, I was doing the complete opposite. I was purposely hiding it from everybody. Um, now obviously with the baby boomers getting older, unfortunately I'm having more and more people come to me with what sounds to me like signs of dementia in their parents, which fucking breaks my heart. It ruins me every time because I just sort of see this like mini video of what they're about to face, and it— I just wouldn't wish it upon anybody. Um, but I think I think just asking, you know, even obviously it doesn't make much sense now, but even just having a few, you know, I had a few friends who would just say, hey, how's your mum doing? And just let me give as much as I want to talk about it. If I say, yeah, she's the same old, leave it at that. But just asking, you know, acknowledging that she still exists. So many people just, you know, acted as if she was already dead.

Tommy: We almost sort of lean away from that because we know the conversation that could be.

Tully: Yeah, people don't want to deal with it. It's awkward.

Tommy: They overcompensate. On set.

Tully: Yeah, totally.

Tommy: You know, like, I felt myself— my friend's father passed away, and I saw him, I felt so emotional thinking about him. And I knew that I didn't want to come across like I'm a fucking— it's about me now. But it's weird, it made me feel really funny.

Tully: Yeah, it was interesting seeing a lot of my friends at the funeral before we'd even— I had just gotten there. This is before the service, and they were hysterically crying. It was really— it was odd for me because I'm like, why are you like— I don't know, like, yeah, why are you You didn't know her, but I guess you're crying because you can see that I'm hurting. You're crying for me.

Josh: Maybe it's also a lack of understanding or like in regards to like if your friends are coming out or people coming out and saying, I wish I'd known and all that sort of thing. It is that realisation of everyone. I think it's a broader piece on everyone's struggling. Everyone's got their story.

Tully: I think that even at our age, you know, we're lucky that death and funerals still are not a commonplace. You know, I, I think that we're still at the age where having, you know, I can list off the top of my head my friends who have lost parents. It's still not a very common occurrence. Our parents are still quite young. Funerals still aren't a thing we do a lot, thankfully. So I think that we're as adults and as human beings still trying to navigate that death in general, but also funerals and how to react and help people with grief. It's still something that we haven't had a lot of exposure to or experience with, so we're all figuring it out together.

Josh: Well, you see even with like Father's Day or Mother's Day, people put up posts celebrating their families, um, when— during Mother's Day. Was there— was that a triggering point during those years?

Tully: They're always really hard. Um, Mother's Day is hard, Christmas is hard, her birthday is hard. And then there are times you don't expect to be hard that you— that hit you a bit harder. I say hard again, Tully. Um, yeah, they're definitely harder days for sure. And I always make an effort to reach out to my friends who have lost parents on those days just to say that I'm thinking of them and checking in on them them, there's just a gaping hole. You know, it's, it's, it's obvious a lot of the time during, you know, just on a normal Tuesday, but on those days especially, it hits home. And I think, I think again, as I'm getting older, it's more the achievements that I'm sad about not being able to share. You know, I came, I made peace with the fact that my mom wouldn't be at my wedding a long time ago. That was always a tough one for me initially. But I, you know, I realised pretty a long time ago now that she wouldn't be at my wedding. But stuff like, you know, even I've just been asked to write a book and my mom was a massive book Bookworm. And that— I can't— like, of everything that I've done in my life, that would have been the thing that she would have been so ecstatic about. Like, I would have had— she would have just been over the moon. And when I, um, sat down for that meeting and was told that I— they wanted me to write a book, I just— I was like, oh, fuck, I wish— I wish I could talk to her about that. I wish I could tell her that, because I often wonder how she would have reacted to Big Brother. Um, that's a definite question mark. But I know for a fact that she would just be so proud of me writing a book.

Josh: Yeah, absolutely. And the building— like, do you think that you can emulate family through friendship?

Tully: Absolutely. I have. I've— for years, um, my family are great. I've got two younger brothers and my dad, who was amazing. But I think with things like this, it either brings you close together or it, it distances you a bit, um, depending on the kind of family you've got. We've never been a big family of talkers. I'm the only talker in the family, and so we've all handled it differently. Um, my friends have been my family for years and years now. I moved here 6 years ago and I knew nobody, and I was going through a breakup, and I was away from my family, and I was away from my friends, and I quickly built a really great support network. Um, and whilst we had family at the funeral, my— the people that I needed around me, people that I wanted at the wake, people that were making me feel better and loved and supported were my friends. And yeah, they've been amazing, absolutely amazing.

Josh: Well, I think it's like having listened to— you're on Mia Friedman's podcast, Wellness Collective podcast as well.

Tully: Keep It Cleaner.

Josh: Yeah, Keep It Cleaner. I think like all of these are your way of celebrating your mum, but also I think, you know, spreading awareness, which is so important. And so, you know, I think you've taken a story, something that you've really struggled with, and been able to create light, which I think is amazing.

Tully: Thank you.

Josh: Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Uh, Social Squad is your podcast.

Tully: Yes, it's out every Wednesday on all good podcasting apps.

Josh: Yeah, who's, who's the next one? Who you— this is coming up.

Tully: You have to wait and see.

Josh: Okay, really?

Tully: Yeah, top secret.

Josh: Uh, it's a daily talk show. Hypethedailytalkshow.com is the email address if you want to email. Have we got any emails, 97s? I don't know.

Tommy: We got one. Imagine noodle sponsorship for your hair, right?

Tully: Uh, we got one from Ian Traynor.

Josh: Oh yeah, that was lovely.

Tully: Uh, Yeah, he also had a storey about photos. He was at a good friend's wedding and the bride's brother and his mates were borrowing the cameras that were left unattended on the table.

Josh: They proceeded to make a lovely flower arrangement around, let's call it, an appendage, take some photos, and then put the camera back.

Tommy: This is one of the ones that you had to get the—

Josh: That's great.

Tully: I had disposable cameras at my 21st. On every table and the footage from those was amazing.

Josh: Oh yeah. Just horrendous.

Tully: Not great, not safe for Facebook, but yeah, I got some great dick shots and tit shots from that. That was great.

Josh: But yeah, Tommy was known for taking a few asshole shots.

Tommy: As a fucking 8-year-old or a 10-year-old.

Tully: No one wants to see anyone's asshole.

Tommy: That was the joke.

Josh: Yeah, that's the funny bit. The poor bastard. Is that a plant? What is it?

Tommy: Developing man going, what is that?

Josh: Anyway, if you've enjoyed the show, take a screen grab, put it up on Instagram, tag us up so we know and we can say thank you. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow. Catch ya.

Tommy: See you guys.