Kylie Eddy On Lean Filmmaking

Kylie: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 425.

Tommy: What's happening, guys?

Josh: Kylie Eddy is in the building today. Uh, hello. Uh, Kylie and I first met, I reckon it was probably, what, 5 years ago?

Kylie: Probably was 5 years ago.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Did you also meet at VidCon? No, because that's where Kylie and I met last year.

Kylie: That's what you're doing.

Tommy: I appreciate you coming and saying hello. And it's amazing. I had never met you, but familiar face, Kylie.

Kylie: Yeah, I think that's the power of social media as well because I had seen you on Josh's social and I knew who you were. I'm like, we're here. I can just go and say hi.

Tommy: Mate, besties.

Kylie: Yeah.

Josh: And so you and I met at a meetup that you were doing called Lean Filmmaking. And so you've, you started this movement, leanfilmmaking.com, which was sort of connecting the startup world and everything that we've learned through that with technology and lean sort of methodologies with filmmaking. And I think what was interesting about what you're doing is you've actually made an indie film. You spent $27-odd grand on a film.

Kylie: Yes, it was micro-budget.

Josh: I mean, which is funny because I think for people who aren't filmmakers, they hear $27 grand and they're like, fuck, that's a lot of money.

Tommy: Is it? I mean, it's a lot of money.

Kylie: Is it? Yes, it is a lot of money, but when you're making a film, it is definitely not a feature film.

Tommy: Okay.

Kylie: It is definitely not a lot of money.

Tommy: If it— what about if it's your own cash?

Kylie: Like it was— well, essentially it was my own cash. If we dive into it, part of the reason why I discovered lean and agile is that I really came up in the traditional film industry. I studied film. I worked at Disney Studios in home entertainment for about 5 years in marketing and distribution, and I'd always had a passion to make my film and studied screenwriting at RMIT and, you know, did all the things that I was meant to do, made a bunch of short films. And I was just obsessed with making a feature film. But unfortunately, I couldn't find any funding and I tried government funding, which essentially in this country, we're a cottage industry that is really subsidised by the government.

Tommy: Cottage, is that meaning like a small? Small. Yeah, great.

Kylie: Very boutique.

Tommy: Yeah, great. Josh wants to live in a cottage, so he's in the right place.

Kylie: Cottage house.

Josh: Yeah, cottage industry sounds good. Cottage. Sounds fun. Cottage production.

Kylie: Yeah, you're trying to raise money. Money that it's not so much fun. And so then I was like, well, it was— I was literally on this cusp, and this is going to age me a little bit maybe, but I was one of the last feature films that was made under the last tax system, which was called the 10BA, which is how films used to get private investment in this country. It's now moved to the producer offset. Okay. Um, which is a different kind of system. And so essentially I went around and I spruiked to every single person that I knew to raise investors at a $5,000 level to try and get them to fund the film. And they would get a 100% tax break on whatever money that they invested.

Josh: The tax thing. I mean, Tommy and I are extremely scared of asking anyone for money.

Kylie: It's hard to do.

Tommy: I think it's just like counter to what feels normal, right? Like, I don't think a lot of people experience that, but I definitely, I think we definitely have.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, we've only ever— this is our first ask of people to give us money.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: For which we're spending most of it on developing the thing.

Kylie: I'm just going to say you're not asking money per se. You're selling a product.

Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

Josh: True. True.

Tommy: So I'm not just saying give me cash, bro.

Kylie: But it does feel just even getting comfortable with asking.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: And I guess this is part of the idea as creators now in this new world. And even like when I was raising money in this way. So it was before the cusp of actually of crowdfunding. So crowdfunding platforms didn't exist. They kind of came about maybe 18 months to 2 years later in the very first instance, but still were not recognized. You know, they were still brand new. And so I think just this idea as a creator, if you want to have control of your future and if you want to have control of what you're producing, it's time to get really fucking comfortable with asking for support, whether that's financial, audience, attention. And ultimately, people are happy to do that if you take them on the journey. So for example, the film that I made is one of the few lesbian feature films that has ever been made in this country. It is very obscure. You will not be able to find it.

Tommy: How do you— if we wanted to make a lesbian feature film, just say—

Kylie: I don't want to put ideas into your head.

Tommy: No, but I'm just saying. Not like that. I was not being disrespectful.

Josh: It's not Tommy's favourite genre.

Tommy: I just mean And what is the— what's the— is it having a quota of—

Kylie: so it's just having women in it? Well, just having lesbian characters. Okay. So, um, obviously there's a whole kind of the cinema, independent cinema world that I was really interested in, drawn to. Also was trying to find reflections of myself on screen. Yeah. Which certainly even now are few and far between. Um, so wanting to make queer cinema was really important to me, but trying to fund that was really hard until I tapped into a fantastic niche audience of really rich dykes who are lawyers and doctors who also wanted to have her. So I basically ran these— I would have essentially, they were what you'd probably call patrons.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: Where there were lesbian couples who were really supportive of what I was doing. They were working in kind of more corporate jobs that they found kind of boring. And I'm in a really arty job. They've got the money, I've got the fun.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And they wanted to just be part of the journey and really experience that. And, you know, so I basically sold before it was really a thing, I guess I essentially had for investors who invested, they could come down to the— I shot it in regional Victoria. They could come down for the day. I had interns taking them around. They got to eat lunch with the crew, which was, oh my God, it's the dodgiest Sandwiches, sausage rolls, loved it.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And just to be part of that on set and it's like 5K well spent. They never made any of that money back. Like obviously they got their tax deduction and the idea was that we would recoup the money and they would be payback first. Yeah, the film never made a cent.

Josh: I mean, the tax offset thing's interesting because it may— it does, I guess, make it a little bit easier to sell in regards like it gives you that one extra thing of like Hey, this is, you can give value to them in some way day one.

Kylie: If you're a high income earner and that is important to you, because you could buy a piece of art and you can offset your art or you could buy or you can invest in something else. So it's just trying to tap into that market. You're right.

Tommy: So we could do that for the podcast.

Josh: Is that?

Kylie: Yeah, I'm sure lesbians will be all over it. Especially with your film idea.

Tommy: I mean, it's happening. I just meant, uh, Rich people looking to offset some money.

Josh: Cash.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: I mean, I think that if you're going to do it, so I obviously had to legally set it up. I did have a lawyer and we had quite a robust agreement. You have to stick to, there was a certain amount of investment law around it. You can't as a business just accept, give that kind of tax break. You have to be set up as a not-for-profit or a special status. Um, or there is also— there's an organisation called ABACF, which is the Australian Business and Culture Enterprise. Oh, I'm probably gonna— yeah, so essentially that is an organisation that if you're doing a cultural or arts, uh, product and you want to raise money through donations, you can do it through their platform. It's essentially crowdfunding without providing any benefit other than the tax, you can claim your tax donation.

Tommy: And a few sausage rolls if you want to, if you want to, on the couch here at the Daily Talk Show.

Kylie: Yeah, so there's quite a lot of rules and regulations around it, just to be fair.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: Um, so you do have to, yeah, you do have to be very clear about what the benefits you're offering and what— and obviously if it's a donation, you actually can't provide any benefits, otherwise it's not a donation.

Tommy: Okay.

Kylie: So you actually legally are not. So obviously my background is also in producing and doing marketing and sponsorship, basically asking for money for festivals.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Kylie: And it's a similar kind of thing where if you're looking after patrons of a festival, if you donate, you can't— that whole money is the donation. You can't expect reciprocal benefits that have a dollar value, i.e., tickets to opening night, a gorgeous hoodie.

Tommy: But if you—

Kylie: but if you can buy that separately.

Tommy: But if I— but if you somehow on your doorstep was a nice hoodie, that's still a deal.

Kylie: I won't tell the tax man.

Josh: I'm curious, like, so was that a good experience then? Like, did you walk away from that specifically from a funding point of view? I mean, you're currently writing your Lean Filmmaking book, and we had a read of the first pages that you've written on that, and you talk about how it just fucking broke you. That really did break me, a whole experience. But on the funding thing, do you look at that as a positive thing?

Kylie: I guess I look at the whole experience, and I think this is part of the challenge in independent cinema and obviously in other art forms. So up until the point that I'd made that, I had basically spent 15 years obsessing about making a feature film. So it's going to always be hard to live up to the expectations of what that is going to be and the experience of living through that. And also because it was very low budget and kind of a very niche story, it meant that a lot of that responsibility felt to me. So I am really proud of what I achieved and the team that I worked with and what we all, what we all did. And it was an incredible learning experience. So I have no regrets about that. But it was literally one of the most stressful things I've ever done in my life. And I basically gave up work, like I didn't earn an income for nearly 18 months.

Tommy: Wow.

Kylie: And then of course the film, I actually took the film So I was really kind of end to end. So I co-wrote the storey with my best friend who also stars in it. And I wrote the script and then all the way through to producing and directing it. And then I took it to LA and San Francisco for festivals and sold it. And I sold it to a distributor in LA for a very small amount of money. And then shortly after they folded. It was not my fault. Yeah.

Tommy: That was not my fault.

Josh: But you at least got the cash.

Kylie: No, I didn't because they folded before. Anyway, by then I was so exhausted. I just did not give a shit. Yeah. So going through that whole process, it for me, it gave me a lot of confidence around I understand how to do a long-form project, I understand what's required from it. And so that was good. But it really— and at the end of it, I was really like, I have no money. I have to go to the investors and say, you're not getting any money.

Josh: Were you prepared for that at the beginning?

Kylie: Yeah, I was. I have to admit, I was really open and honest because I didn't want to raise expectations as well. So that's why I wanted the experience of being part of the film to be enough, even if they never got money back. Um, my lawyer also helped me kind of manage expectations on film business. Investing in the film is very risky.

Josh: I mean, did it make it even harder? Because I guess that like you're starting to add bonuses, right? So you're saying like, okay, not only am I making this film, but now I'm like running some form of theme park where I'm giving people an experience.

Kylie: It was a lot. Yeah, I mean, so at the end of it, I guess, so I worked a lot of, um, yeah, I just worked a lot.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And at the end I was really burnt out. I was emotionally burnt out. I was financially burnt out. My relationship was in pretty dire straits. Um, and the whole experience, I'm like, does it— why does it not have to be— why is it this hard? And it really felt like I had done everything the right way and what I had been taught, and yet it was still a massive fa— and I guess from my perspective as well, the disappointing thing that I find when I look back on that experience is that no one was knocking down my door for me to get directing gigs. I could not get another job. I could not get my door in and my foot in the door in an agency. Like, no one wanted to hire me, and that was pretty devastating. This is post, post, post, after the film had screened basically at festivals around the world.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: Um, and I just feel like a lot of that was maybe I wasn't in the right headspace after I finished it because I was pretty, you know, wrecked. Um, but also I think it is endemic of the film industry, which is pretty sexist and homophobic. And so I was definitely out of the box. Where I feel like— I'm not saying I'm that talented, but I feel like with people with other equal amounts of talent, yeah, had other opportunities. And so unfortunately for me at that time, I was— and then I got really bitter. Yeah. Yeah. Thank God you didn't interview me then because that was— I mean, it could have been more fun.

Josh: Who knows?

Tommy: What year was that?

Kylie: So I finished that film in 2007, and yeah, and then pretty much from there I went straight into I have to find a job now. And I went to arts adjacent industry. So I actually, that's when I worked at the Melbourne Queer Film Festival and really helped other filmmakers and also kind of, I guess, used my selling skills. And I would say for anyone who is comfortable with selling, it's a pretty great way to always have a job because most people don't like doing it.

Tommy: I mean, salespeople have always got a job.

Kylie: That's always got a job. It's like, I'm sure in commercial radio, in, you know, all of these industries, if you are comfortable with selling. And so I kind of went into arts through that way and kind of recovered around this time. I feel like we're coming full circle. Yeah, is around the same time my brother, who is a software designer, software developer, he was exploring this new way of doing things called agile software development. And also Eric Ries's book Lean Startup came out and he was really excited by this process that he was working with. And he, of course, said 'You know what, Kylie? I just think that was a really dumb way to make a film and you should really be making it this way.' And I was like, 'Well, that's bullshit.' And you're a really good actor. You don't know what you're talking about.

Tommy: I will say, before meeting Josh, lean is just what I wanted to be and agile is what you are on the footy field. And I've never heard it. And then I meet Josh and he's working in Vado, he's in Lean start. Like, I'd never heard these words before, and then it makes sense, this book and your, you know, connection. I love the approach because it's taking something over from the tech space into an industry, and it's, it's how we disrupt things. We do things differently. I was listening to a guy talk today about sustainability, and he's on this mission to just, you know, change the way that we look at, you know, um sustainability. And he was saying, we, we, we go in and we disrupt the current system. We do it a different way because the system, even if it's got some use, it needs to be changed. And so I guess that's why filmmaking is very old. This going to LA and pitching, like, this has been happening. Hollywood, this is hot. That's real Hollywood, right?

Kylie: And it's actually what we're taught still in this country, traditional filmmaking. If you go to film school here, yeah, you were being taught that model of basically. So it's pre-production or it's actually really development, pre-production, production, post-production, distribution. And I guess what I'm suggesting with lean filmmaking and the method that my brother and I have worked on, on applying different methodologies, is you actually can do that simultaneously in an iterative manner, but in a smaller minimum viable product version and test and learn and build from that.

Tommy: Iterative, test and learn, never words I'd used in my vocab until I met Josh as well.

Josh: Yeah. Why I Bought IterativeStorytelling.com.

Tommy: Just a bit long.

Josh: I couldn't spell it. Yeah, yeah.

Kylie: I mean, I think that's when Josh and I, when we first met, it was actually for me so refreshing because to be able to speak with someone like Josh, whose filmmaking talent is amazing and his skill in that, and to also then understand what agile and lean was, it was such, it was Literally, it was so exciting for me because most filmmakers are like, well, like I was when I first heard of it. I'm like, well, that's bullshit. You don't know what you're talking about.

Josh: And the other thing too is everyone uses lean pretty loosely, like agile and agile. And so that's the thing is I would come— I was coming in with, you know, hearing a couple of GMs at a tech company say lean and say, I'm fucking doing lean. And then you have Kylie deconstruct what you're doing and like realize, okay, we're not necessarily there yet. But I think that the thing that resonates with both of us is that lean doesn't mean that it needs to look shit or cheap. Yeah, exactly. And that's, I guess that's one of those things which is, which is lost, that people think when they think of lean, they think that it needs to have a negative impact where it's like it's actually a way of creating better, better stories. It's about like putting the storey and the audience, like I think the audience being a big part of it as well ahead.

Tommy: So move faster being lean, you can try things faster, you know, you can also remove, you can pop the bubble, right?

Josh: Like, so like where as creators we, you know, like think about the time that you spent, you know, in the regional town making the film with, you know, 10 crew or whatever. It's like you can, you can create a world and forget the fact that there's actually going to be people who you want to watch it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: And to be fair, this is— and I think this is why this is a great opportunity for creators at the moment— is back when I did make my film, and we're only talking just over 10 years ago, is so YouTube was in its infancy and Twitter didn't— it only just started. Facebook was really new. Crowdfunding didn't exist. Podcasting wasn't a genre. Like all of these things have changed.

Tommy: Mr. March 97 wasn't born. Oh God. I think he was.

Josh: 2007, are you kidding me? You were born, you were 5 or something. No, you were still 7, you were 8. You probably had a Minecraft server or something like that.

Kylie: So, um, so there's so much has changed, yet, um, particularly in filmmaking, um, we are still really stuck in not using the technology to our full advantage. We love gear and we love tech, and that has compressed the cycle, but we haven't really thought about process of making films, i.e., how we organise the work and who does the work. And as you say, this Hollywood system of how we crew films and the order has actually been around for 100 years. And often when I talk about changing the way we do things, I feel a lot of resistance. And I'm like, you know, just some person came up with this once. It's not, oh my God, it came down from on high and this is how we make films. Some person just came up with it because it was— it worked at the time. And there's no reason why we can't question that now.

Josh: Is part of the problem like companies or organisations like Screen Australia, like you go on to their website to try and fund a film and it actually fits perfectly with that 100-year model. Like, how do we, how do we finance these types of things?

Kylie: So yeah, there's a couple of things that come up from that. First of all, the funding organisations are not there to help filmmakers. Step One, they're there to fund cultural product that speaks to something that they can sell to government. So they've got a government kind of prerogative around what that needs to be. And that's not to say they're good or bad, and they certainly serve a purpose. Um, though I would say that unfortunately in this country, once again, because it is so reliant on funding, is that it makes you very stuck. There's nothing worse than having to fill out a bunch of forms. And often if you're a creative person, that's not to say that you can't fill out forms, but we can't fucking fill out. Yeah, it's a real skill set. It's a real skill set to be able to fill out a grant application and then to wait 3 months.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: And then to go through an interview, and then you get that. I mean, we're talking like, you've already made 400 shows in the time it's taken to have a grant approved. And so if you're waiting for that, it really stifles you creative— creatively. If you're succeeding in that way, fantastic. This isn't for you what we're talking about. But I just find that even for myself, it really— once you're waiting for that money, it's really stifling. So I guess with lean filmmaking and coming back to what you're talking about, the audience who we call fans and sort of what you're wrestling with as well in terms of how you monetize your podcast, is how can you as a creative connect with people who are interested in what you're doing? And so normally I do a Venn diagram that has essentially— I'm not saying filmmakers get really scared that it's like, but I have this storey I want to tell and everyone's going to love it. It's like, well, you might. That's true. But essentially, can we find something that you're really interested in? And then can we find an audience that also intersects with that?

Tommy: Yes.

Kylie: And then can we find a way to do that within our constraints? So part of the great way of doing something iteratively is you can start really small in a really lo-fi way, see if you can connect with an audience or fans, and then build from that and apply the production values when you know that you're going to get a valuable return on it.

Tommy: Hmm. Well, it's, it's giving you the best shot at having any of these stick, right?

Kylie: Absolutely.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: It's—

Tommy: yeah, I really like this approach. I mean, I've come from a bit of a school of cowboys when it comes to filmmaking. I feel like some of the shit Josh has rattled off to me, his knowledge from the days when cameras were much different and you had to feed in the cord that would play up the footage.

Josh: And then there's a cord.

Kylie: I shot my film on a tape, so just saying. Yeah.

Tommy: And so, but I think there's the, I think filmmaking and I think about the kid who picks up the video camera and them not even feeling like they want to be a filmmaker because they don't think like that, right? They just think of video. I make a video.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And then it's like trying to work out. I've gone through the period of like when I start following a filmmaker, I want to be a filmmaker and then I'm just the video guy shooting from the hip. And then I like, I know I'm definitely not a videographer. And so I've just, I've gone through these periods and, you know, I've landed on I'm a filmmaker. It is whatever it is for me, but I've definitely kind of had definitely haven't been a part of that confused space of old school filmmaking, which is, I think, been to my advantage. And you're doing the exact thing of saying, hey filmmakers, don't get caught up in that shit, come over here and this is it.

Kylie: And I mean, I think a great practical example of that is YouTube. Yeah, I'm obsessed with YouTube. I love YouTube. I haven't had my free-to-air TV plugged in for like 6 years. Part of also my bent of minimalism and what can I do less of so I can watch more YouTube essentially.

Josh: Do you have YouTube Premium?

Kylie: I do have YouTube Premium from as soon as it was available.

Josh: I'm just trying to work out whether I'm the only one. I feel like YouTube, I went off YouTube Premium for a week.

Kylie: No.

Josh: The amount of pre-rolls, I couldn't actually believe it.

Kylie: Well, certainly because now the content on YouTube with creators who have been on there, brands and certainly creators who have been on there longer, long-form content is certainly being rewarded and that means there's multiple there's a pre-roll, mid-roll, and I mean, if you're watching longer videos, there could be 8 ads.

Josh: See, I got YouTube Premium before the mid-roll thing, like I guess the longer content, the mid-roll. And so it was like the first 2 weeks ago was the first mid-roll that I'd ever experienced. Is this a new video? No, I was like, hang on, then it picks it back up.

Kylie: Yeah, so originally I got a Premium because of the premium content of some of the creators, and then I started experiencing without ads and I'm like, I can never Go back. And if, look, if you don't watch a lot of YouTube, it's probably not valuable to you. But the amount that I watch, and I guess because we're talking, I mean, do you watch it on the TV?

Josh: Do you have a smart TV?

Kylie: I do have a smart TV, so sometimes I watch it on TV, sometimes I watch it on my phone or my tablet. I mean, look, there have been days where like you binge watch Netflix, but I binge watch YouTube, and nothing makes me happier than finding a creator that I haven't discovered, and I can just see there's like I know 200 videos to watch of this. Oh, so good. So what was my point about YouTube?

Josh: No, I was just very curious.

Kylie: Oh, YouTube.

Josh: Sorry, I was just curious about YouTube Premium. Yeah, because like, I guess like, back on that, well, mainly just because I think it's interesting, like the audiences and people willing to, like the, what we're, uh, willing to do as customers and stuff is really interesting. Like what we're willing to pay for nowadays.

Kylie: I think we pay for to remove ads.

Josh: Yeah. And I wonder what the— I mean, Mr. 97 uses an ad blocker. Yeah.

Kylie: Yeah. Which, which unfortunately doesn't work on smart TVs.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: Yeah.

Josh: Which I think is interesting. Right. And so like, I guess that what I love about you, Kylie, is you've got the business side and the, the, the creative side, which I guess when you talk about making that indie film. You're very much in the art of it, and sort of, this is a something— it's almost like identity type stuff, which I guess to Tommy's point too is so much of what filmmaking is, is about identity. It's about being the cinematographer or being like— we get so attached to all of that stuff.

Kylie: I'm pretty lucky that I was not really ever attached to that. I was attached to the idea of the vision of telling my story. I have not ever been so interested in the tech side of things. But I think this is where YouTube is so fantastic that I love, is that really YouTubers for the most part would never call themselves filmmakers unless they are an actual— less the Pete McKinnons or the Casey Neistats, like that kind of crowd. But for most YouTubers, they're YouTubers and they are doing this model that filmmakers could learn so much from, where essentially they're putting up a piece of content They're getting a response that they can actually see through their analytics. When does someone fast forward? When does someone drop off? When does someone start? They can see comments, they can see subs, they can see likes or dislikes, and then they can iterate and keep building on that. Exactly what you're kind of doing with your podcast. I mean, you can't do it. You can't think your way out. You can't think your way to 400 episodes. You have to do it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: The only time a YouTuber has ever put their hands together to make a frame is when they're taking the piss of old school filmmakers.

Kylie: Do you have a headshot?

Josh: I'm sure I've definitely done sort of by doing this shot, the square finger thing, but you're definitely L-shaped with both thumb and index finger and then put them together. I'm sure I've done that, that before and then brought into Photoshop and made the square black and white. Sausage in.

Tommy: I love it.

Josh: Absolutely beautiful.

Kylie: Genius.

Josh: I mean, one of the One of the things, like talking about the going into the analytics, looking at the subscribers, all that sort of thing, what's your thoughts on, uh, the algorithm? Like, so say specifically for YouTube, you could easily, using all of that data, could be, uh, sort of directed into a certain way of creating content.

Kylie: Yeah, 100%. And I think actually as YouTube has matured and those that have been on the platform for a long time there is a lot of that. And actually, to be honest, now if you really want to be a successful YouTuber and, you know, grow your channel and have a million plus subs and be making your main income from AdSense, which is really hard to do, you really need to be having at least a million views a month to really make any kind of real living from it. And also a very specific type of content, because obviously It's now all graded by YouTube, whether it's family friendly or, you know, swearing. So that—

Tommy: done with that.

Kylie: Yeah, I know that can really affect your, your AdSense money. And so, yes, you can go pretty deep into it, though I guess the smart YouTubers who are doing it as a full-time gig or trying to do it as a full-time gig and certainly like a platform like podcasting is how do you diversify your income so that you're not reliant only on advertising, but you're selling merch, you're selling tour tickets, you're selling a live experience, you've got an online course, you've written a book. You know, it's unfortunately— and I would say with filmmakers as well, the reality is this is what's happening. Musicians have to do it now as well. This is just the new reality. People expect content for free and that's not going to change. And if you want to add value to those people who are prepared to pay for it, then you need to find out what they're really interested in. And I think maybe The Minimalists are a great example of this, um, in that— so I really, I love The Minimalists. I have followed them from pretty much the beginning. I have bought every single one of their books. I was there at their live tour when Joshua was shooting, and I bought the VIP experience. I wanted the hug.

Josh: Yeah, I wanted the Q&A. I'm sure I've got footage of that.

Kylie: I've got it on my Instagram.

Tommy: How much was the hug?

Kylie: What did I also had George.

Josh: I was wearing the Easy Rig.

Tommy: It wasn't a line item. $30 plus.

Kylie: But no, but I mean, literally, I mean, I think that VIP experience might have been $180. So that had a pre-show thing. And I, and there when the Minimalism documentary came out before it was on Netflix, I was there first day because I'm on their EDMs, on their message, their emails. It's launching on Vimeo. I paid $24 to watch the documentary as soon as it came out. That's what you look— that's what we're talking about when fans— so audience is very broad and I think it's easy to go, oh, there's an audience, it's hard to kind of pin that down. But if you're thinking about fans, it's a freemium model. So there's a whole bunch of people who can happily enjoy your content for free. And then how can you find people who really love what you do and help. And I have absolutely zero qualms in spending money on them. I loved it. I loved all of that. Hey, I would do it all again.

Josh: Well, that's what I wonder about, the doing it all again, because I was talking to Christian Hull, who's someone who's built a fantastic audience and sort of a community. And the interesting thing that he was saying is he'd heard from someone that you only get one crack at, like, from an online personality thing. He'd sort of heard people say you only get one chance to go out and make that money from the event, and it's quite hard to get those other ones. Is that—

Kylie: well, look, I think it's once again on the individual. I think he's really great. And Tanya Hennessy, I think, is another fantastic example of someone who's really trying a whole bunch of different things, diversifying.

Josh: I guess that's the thing.

Kylie: It's writing a book and also doing the live shows that she's done with Christian. Like, I would, you know, buy anything of hers as well. I think there is definitely going to be— your audience is going to change with time, right? And sometimes it's going to be more relevant for you than other times. So for me, I guess there are some things that I'm really passionate about, but you do change. I think we were talking about it earlier that we used to both be quite obsessed with Gary Vee. And, you know, back in the early days, you know, I bought all these books. I was really into it. And now I feel like that doesn't— I'm not— I've moved on from that. That's not really interesting to me anymore. But he's got a whole new legion of fans. So it's just about continuing to reconnect. I'm not sure there is one shot only. Yeah, that seems pretty sad to me.

Tommy: Yeah, because audience changes, as you're saying, right? And I, and I've always thought about, you know, when someone says find your— like, work out who your audience is. And I've done some sort of thinking around what it meant because I was always like, it's actually really hard to know who your audience is before you have it. But I think the thought behind who It's who could your audience be? Not who is your audience. I just got bogged down in is. Bro, I don't have any. And who could your audience be? So that's when you're thinking about who could it be, it is just breaking down one more barrier that could get you started to start making the film.

Kylie: And look, we are definitely in the film community very guilty of this kind of— I feel like it's another one of these buzzwords. Find your audience, like agile or lean. It's like, find your audience. That would be the answer. So what we would suggest in lean filmmaking, where what we're talking about, that's what we used to call it audience. And we've since learned that people have that exact same feeling. So that's why we've kind of changed it to fans and potential fans is what you want to find out from is not traditional kind of demographics or where do they live or how old they are, but really you want to find out Where do they get information? How do they consume what I'm selling? Where do they hang out in real life?

Tommy: Will they pay for a hug?

Kylie: Yes, exactly. Will they? That's exactly right. So how and how can I in an authentic way connect with them to see if they're interested in what I'm doing? And can I really— and really, you're collaborating. So if I can talk about Lean Filmmaking for a second, it's really hard to describe the entire process without kind of going through the steps. So part of this iterative model is that first of all, it starts with collaboration, and that's collaboration with a squad of, you know, a small group of people.

Tommy: Gronkh Squad.

Kylie: Gronkh Squad.

Josh: Perfect.

Kylie: It's a perfect example that really you have all the skills that are required to make a film. So it's not necessarily about the roles, it's about the skills. And you can work collaboratively to do that. And it's more important to have that than it is to have a script. Or to have— I'm suggesting you do this even before you have any of that, because as soon as you start having a script, you're shutting down your creativity and your options. Then secondly, you want to make sure that you're— you invest in your storey before production value. So how can you learn about what storey you want to tell, what thematic you want to tell, and really get that right? Because we do live in this incredible world of technology where production values are actually the easy part if you can find the storey and the storey works, and then you add production values where they're necessary, and you have the, the audience is interested in that, that's fantastic. Really focus on being fan, fan first, really thinking about like they're really the boss. So in lean filmmaking, the producer or the director isn't the boss. The audience really is the boss. Like you are helping to creatively still make decisions and you still have to make those creative decisions, but ultimately If you want someone to see your film, you also get to collaborate with them and find out more from them. And finally, you really need to focus on doing over planning. You could have spent a whole year planning out every single episode before you did a single episode of this podcast.

Tommy: We spent 5 years. No, no, you totally—

Kylie: And but you actually learn. So anytime that you can focus on, for example, I want to know who my— I want to know who my audience is. Well, how can I get something to them really quickly? Like a hoodie and see what reaction that has. And then how can I learn and build from there? And then finally, in filmmaking, we pull this all together. It's a make-screen-adjust cycle. So essentially you make a short version of the— well, a full version of the film in the lowest fi available at the time. You screen it towards your potential fans, then you make adjustments based on that, on what did you learn, and then choose together what you want, how you want to move the needle. And then you repeat the whole cycle again.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: I mean, that's a very long-winded explanation.

Josh: Well, I think it's exactly to the point of how we've done the Daily Talk Show.

Kylie: Exactly.

Josh: Because we started, you know, we started with 2 USB microphones into a laptop and then, you know, we started doing video and all that sort of thing.

Kylie: And now it's very fancy.

Josh: And now I've overbaked it. But the team, I think the team stuff is really interesting. I mean, when you made the indie film what was your relationship with teamwork?

Kylie: Well, I mean, you mean my— when I made my indie feature? So I was super traditional because it wasn't, it wasn't really talked about. I mean, it was just a more scaled-back version of Hollywood. So I had followed the advice where essentially it was 2 characters in 1 location, and I had a crew of, I think it was 13 plus, uh, 2 cast members. I mean, seriously, that is ridiculous. I mean, I would literally shoot that by myself now and maybe have a boom operator. And I just think that you get really trapped in, well, we have to have a script supervisor, we have to have a, you know, whole grip department. And it's actually— we're so lucky that actually now the cameras are so great. And I mean, the cameras could have been great back then as well, but you just don't actually need that if you're really clear about I don't have to do everything right in the first go.

Josh: It's a performance. It becomes a performance on set. So you end up like, what is a set meant to look like? Oh, well, we need to have this person. I need to, I need to say action and all that. Even though even saying action and stuff like that, I find really interesting. Yeah, because it's a lot of the terminology that's used in filmmaking we don't use at all when we're doing a production. Because I think like, what is more confronting for someone to say action, especially trying to get this authentic performance? Performance, if you— or even authentic, you know, just on-screen personality, or someone just talking, being themselves, saying, 'Camera's rolling' and 'Sound' and all that.

Tommy: Like, what's that?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, way to make it as far away from a fucking conversation as you can possibly get. And so I guess that's an interesting thing too, which is, yeah, lean can also mean getting closer to an authentic experience.

Kylie: So part of rethinking and deconstructing the entire way of making films is that I always felt on set that it is really stressful. It's not— it's very hierarchical. Um, people think that that's where films are made, on set, but actually films are just really executed on set, and it's the least creative place ever. Most people hate it, and it's really boring. And then moments of frenetic activity where you have to be perfect So you sit around waiting for the lights to be set for 2 hours. Okay, set, like, action, be perfect.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: Okay, stop. Don't be perfect for another 2 hours. Come back and be perfect. And the whole— and it's long hours and it's stressful and it's— you only get really one shot at it. So I guess part of what— and it only works in a very specific way— what we're really trying to do with lean filmmaking is how can we actually make the process more creative and less like that. So it's not huge, big risks, huge, big, all the money on the day. You got 100 crew standing around looking at you. How are you supposed to make a creative decision and have all the answers? So really, that's where you strip it all back. You take it really small. The days can be really short. It doesn't— whoever shows up, shows up, you know. Oh, our DP hasn't shown up today. Oh, I'll just shoot it on my phone.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And the next time they come, Where was it? We'll shoot it.

Tommy: No, I'm serious.

Kylie: How do we get a project? I was on a Hollywood set.

Tommy: I heard an actor talk recently about his experience working on a film where script obviously written before you get there, but they went, they went off and they had so much fun ad-libbing and they didn't use a single take where they were ad-libbing, where they were having the most fun because it wouldn't cut because it's like an instruction manual for a piece of IKEA furniture. We chucked in a few better instructions, but we had to get it gone because back there we worked out exactly how this has to be done. Which you've put— so I like that you— have you just reordered some steps that make a lot more sense in the process? I mean, there's a lot more to it than that, but some of these things, right? It just sounds like you've put them in such a better order and sort of thrown out a bunch of the ones that don't really need and stripped back. And now you get like those 4 principles or values that you use?

Kylie: Yeah, so I guess big picture, the values that I talked about, about collaboration and, um, storey before production values and fan-focused and doing, is there are so many decisions that you make when you're doing a creative project and you're making a film. There's so many moving parts that you can't have an answer for everything, but rather you can have guiding principles so that if you get stuck in this whole we're obsessing about the script or the story, ah, we're in it. And that feels actually like a safer space sometimes as a creative to just get stuck talking about it. We go, ah, actually, you know what, let's just try doing this. Let's get up on its feet and try it this way and try it that way. We have really tried to reevaluate every part of the process. And I guess another interesting example is the way that you cast. So in Lean, part of the philosophy of Lean, which comes you know, it was kind of really started in the late '60s, '70s with Toyota in manufacturing. And it's really about how can you reduce waste, how can you make things more efficient and reduce waste and provide value to the customer. So all of those things that you think might be valuable but add no value to the customer, how can you really make that more efficient? So if we're looking at something like casting, it's actually a very inefficient process. Well, first of all, you write a script and you make up characters And then you've got to try and find actors who can play those characters that you imagined in your head. And then they have to be available at a certain time. And then you have to construct all of these things to make that happen. What we're suggesting is actually on your squad of your small team to make the film are actors. So actually your actors are already cast as part of your squad. So to start with, you can start with a really small squad. You know, 2 actors is great because it's fantastic to have someone to play off. And then you're writing your script or your storey or you're developing it actually using their skills and actually using who they are. You don't have to cast. And so you're actually creating something that is organic for them. So if they really love improv, well, guess what? All that improv that you did is not going to be wasted. If they do prefer something that's more structured, well, you can write a script. And so it's really about trying to use the skills of who's in the squad And look, everyone says, oh, but it's my story, I'm so passionate about it. I'm sure we've both seen it, is that people can come up with a storey in one day and get super obsessed with it and really passionate about it. We quickly grab onto ideas, we love ideas. Actually, it's much harder finding a team to work with.

Josh: So maybe it's a shift from being a director to being a facilitator.

Kylie: I would definitely say it's like a coach, or so I guess in the Agile world, is kind of like a— you're a servant leader. So really your job is to solve problems. So, and to help coach people to make decisions. You're not making the decision for them. You're part of the decision-making process. And it sounds like it's filmmaking by committee, but in fact it's a much more rigorous way of making films. We have a whole bunch of tools for how to do this that we've completely used the best of from Lean and Agile. So that you can really make decisions in actually a really robust way. You can't hide anymore. And I think that's really confronting for a lot of people because on set you can actually really hide. It's hierarchy. It's someone else's job. I don't have to do that.

Tommy: Not my problem.

Kylie: Not my problem. I tried. They didn't listen. Oh, well, I'm just going to undermine them by, you know, I mean, it happens in— it happens on all parts of the crew, but particularly with actors. It's like they didn't like that take. Well, I'm just going to do this shit take. I'm just going to only give them one take and fuck up the other takes. Because this is how I'm controlling the situation. So that can— it is trying to remove all of that invisible hierarchy and trying to make all of that transparent so that you can make decisions better together.

Tommy: You've probably, I mean, had a lot of interactions with filmmakers, and you may have an idea, a general sense of what, what generally people's version of success when they make a film is. What do you think it is?

Kylie: So this is a pretty big question in that I think it comes back to something we were talking about earlier, is that traditional filmmaking and why we don't think about the audience, and it's not filmmakers' fault, is actually we're taught not to. Because actually our job is, as a creative person, is to sell to the producer or to sell to a distributor or to sell to a studio so that actually we get our money from selling our idea or our concept to someone else who's going to fund it, and then it's their job to sell it to the audience. So you're actually quite removed in a sense from an audience. So our audience is producers.

Josh: Yeah. And in some ways, when you're making your feature, your audience were the people who gave you the $5 grand.

Kylie: Correct. Absolutely.

Josh: Did it feel like that?

Kylie: Yeah, it really did. It really felt like that. I've got a lot of responsibility. And I guess traditionally success is seen as, well, I made a gorgeous looking film. I think production values are very highly valued and it doesn't matter how many people see it. I completed a film, it looks gorgeous, and I'm going to get another job from it. It looks great on my showreel and that's success. Obviously, you know, as you do if you're interested in telling stories, obviously you do want people to see it and you do want to have that experience, but it's so disconnected currently from the responsibility of that. And there are plenty of people who have made films that have not made money. I mean, films are— it's really hard to make money from films anyway— who have gone and have a career. So it's how— it's actually how successfully can you raise funding and how successfully can you make something look really gorgeous.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, this is the classic case of being, um, pushed someone else's version of success onto us, and we can look to the left and feel like, I want that success, but it's actually not what we want. And then it's not the steps that they took, it doesn't actually equate to success. What do you think, like, YouTubers, these young people? Because I think they, they have a different version of success.

Kylie: They're just like you said, they're not so young YouTubers. Yeah, yeah, I do. I think the thing that I love, once again, why I love YouTube is because it is redefining success. So obviously now it's just our nature that we want to make everything into a job and kind of, I don't know, it doesn't Seth Godin say like marketers screw up everything?

Josh: Or it might be Gary Vee. Well, no, yeah, no, Seth says that and Austin Kleon saying like everything has to be a side hustle. Yeah, you know, you can't just have a hobby.

Kylie: You just don't have a hobby. And so, but I do feel like the relationship and like sex, and so I often find it really interesting when I'm talking to people from both of those worlds that often filmmakers are terrified because of how they've been judged on production values is that they look at YouTube often and go, look at those crap production values. I would never produce something like that because that's how they've been judged. Whereas YouTubers go, look at what I'm— I don't need production values to tell my storey because I'm connecting with my audience. Those filmmakers are wasting all their time. So it's a very different— it's a completely different attitude.

Josh: It's a different sport. It is. It really is. It's almost being like watching a game of soccer and saying, why don't they just pick it up with their hands? You know, it's like, you can kick it.

Tommy: They had it in their hands. No, no, no, I got it. You had it in your hand because they picked it up and then they kick it like that. Can't do that. That's Gaelic football. I was ahead of you. I was ahead of you.

Josh: Never do sports metaphors on the show.

Kylie: I mean, that's not my field.

Tommy: I have to say it. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I mean, if, um, if people Google you and they click through to your Instagram account, they'll see that Kylie Eddy's account hasn't been that active lately.

Kylie: It has not.

Josh: And so I'm curious because I've, I've gone through moments in the past year, i.e., a complete social media retirement. What has been your relationship with putting out content on social media?

Kylie: Yeah, it's a really interesting one because I have definitely taken a break the last 6 months. So I think what happened was when I was running the meetup group, the Lean Filmmaking Meetup meetup group, which was the largest filmmaking meetup group in Australia for about 4 years.

Josh: So like 2,000—

Kylie: we had nearly— it was 2,700 members in Melbourne, but we also ran one in Perth. So, and I also had a day job. And in that space of about 3 and a half years, I personally ran 50 events, which obviously I had to do all of the marketing copy, all the social, and then I went to my day job. And guess what my day job was? Marketing festivals and being on Twitter and like— and so basically my professional life and and my side hustle, yeah, were really deeply engaged with social media. And then a couple of years ago, we decided that we had learned everything that we could from running the meetup group, and we just had to make a really tough— it was a really tough decision because honestly, I loved running that group. I met awesome people. I got a lot of personal validation from it. And often the work we're doing is, um, is really hard, and so it was lovely to get some actual feedback from people, but we just didn't have time. And I really wanted to focus on writing the book. How can we write the book and take the next step? We closed the group. And then at the end of last year, I moved away from the festival world to take a bit of a break from that as well. And I just shut down everything. I think I was just really burnt out and tired and wanted to try something different. So I've been doing a lot of inner work, which, look, probably it could translate to Instagram. I really do enjoy the platform. But I just really wanted to take the time for myself and I found it actually really lovely.

Tommy: Can I say, was this around the same time that you stopped listening to Gary Vee? Because Gary Vee is preaching 100 pieces of content a day or you're irrelevant.

Kylie: Document everything.

Tommy: So we're all irrelevant in this room, guys. He'd be pissed at you.

Josh: He'd be fucking pissed. But you don't exist to him at all.

Kylie: No, not at all.

Josh: How much of the thoughts around the Lean Filmmaking and the meetup was centred around monetization? Were you thinking about monetization?

Kylie: Yeah, we definitely were. I mean, in the first instance, when we were running the group, our motivation for doing that was, I mean, first of all, we started it. So I guess it was about maybe 7 years ago. We, and it was maybe 6 years ago where we were really active. Is these things we're talking about even now, they're radical. But 6 years ago, It was really, really like I literally had filmmakers yelling at me. If they had tomatoes, they would have thrown them at me. Like it was really full on.

Josh: Filmmakers are babies. It's a fact.

Kylie: They are very baby. So every single objection to this process, I have heard it for years and now I've got just a lot better. And people are actually more interested now because I feel like we're kind of in the whole movement has kind of got a little bit more prominence and everyone likes to throw in the word agile.

Josh: So you love pushback too? Like you fucking give it back. I do love it. I do love it. You lean into it.

Kylie: I feel like, you know, it's great to have an alternative perspective. And I had been to so many filmmaking panels, for example, where everyone wants government funding essentially. And so everyone's very polite because no one wants to fuck off the industry that they're basically getting their bread and butter from. And when you say, well, I don't want that, I don't need that, it was really liberating. And so it's really exciting. To be the person who is dissenting. I find that really fun. So you're right, I do quite like, quite like that. So I've heard it all. What was the point? Where was I heading with this?

Josh: Well, I think that like the monetizing.

Kylie: So in our first instance, thank you. In our first instance, we were just like, no one's interested in this. Can we get people interested? Will they come to the next meetup? Can we talk about this? We tried selling workshops. And with mixed success. And we just felt because we've got so much, we're really kind of trying to prove something so difficult for people to wrap their brains around that it is, has been super hard to monetize. And I guess the last straw for me around the time when I'm like, we're closing the group, was we ran an accelerator programme for filmmakers to make, develop feature films in 3 months around their day jobs. And we did that. And then I tried to sell that and I could not get a single filmmaker to fork over the cash. And that's when I'm like, you know what, we've got to rethink this. And now I'm really like, well, the way we're going to monetize it now is let's go back to old school. I'm going to write a book. People expect to learn things in books. I love books. Obviously the book's not going to make any money, but hopefully the book will then lead to, you know, we're looking at doing online courses. Or actually doing training programs. Like, that's the next step that we're going to try and test. Once again, we're not sure it's going to work, but we're going to— that's what we're going to be trying next.

Josh: I think that's interesting around like when you're picking your fans or your audience. I mean, how important is it working out whether— I mean, because filmmakers, like, especially in the independent set, like, they've got no money.

Kylie: Well, here's the thing. Yeah, they have money for a nice camera.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Kylie: So, and they do have money for some training and they do have money for things that they do care about. So how do we make this something that they care about? Or potentially, which is the other direction that we're exploring, is how do we take what we've learned and actually do it more for a corporate audience? So really introducing creativity to a corporate audience. So this year we spoke at the Agile Australia conference which was a really fantastic experience.

Josh: What was that like?

Kylie: It was amazing. It was like legit on the stage.

Josh: Oh, great.

Kylie: Lights. It was really fun. And my brother and I— my brother's actually based in Perth, so we have to do it remotely. So we were both in the same city and we just spent the weekend at St. Kilda Film Festival. He came over for that and we've been presenting to filmmakers who are obviously our audience, but it is sometimes like there's a lot of explaining.

Tommy: I mean, babies, you usually gotta explain a lot of stuff.

Kylie: But it's super fun, right? But then we go to Agile Australia and it's completely different because they know what Agile is.

Tommy: They get it.

Kylie: They get it. And so they're asking completely different questions.

Josh: What were the questions like?

Kylie: It was really exciting. Well, hilariously, at the end of our session, someone asked, and I look, my brother could not have been more happy because he's also a bit of a sassy, sarcastic bastard, um, is that someone said, oh, that all sounds great for independent. We kind of used one of the independent films that we did in the accelerator as an example, but how would that work on a Hollywood film? How would you scale up? My brother was like, well, remember 10 years ago when we were at this Agile conference for the first time and everyone was like saying, well, how could— how will this scale up for enterprise? And yet here we are ANZ's doing Agile.

Josh: Exactly, I'm literally just thinking ANZ.

Kylie: Everyone is doing Agile.

Tommy: Can you just quickly explain for my mum at home who I know she's got no idea what Agile is?

Kylie: She's already turned off probably.

Josh: I mean, I think Tommy still doesn't, it's okay.

Tommy: Yeah, when I say mum, I meant me.

Josh: But just the base of it, I mean, I don't even, the thing is that like the, it gets used in so many different ways and there's so many different flavours in some regards. Like you've obviously got Scrum and like there's Kanban.

Kylie: So what I would say is both of them those are tools to use Agile. So Agile is actually a mindset or philosophy. So similar to our values that we have for lean filmmaking, that's what Agile is. And actually, if you— you could probably Google it, that this is called the Agile Manifesto, and it was written by 12 software developers in the '90s, I want to say, maybe 2001. Thank you. And essentially it was a bunch of software developers who sat around saying, how can we do software better? And the manifesto is really about— it's like people over process. It's about testing with our customers. It's about making sure that we make small versions so that we can get real feedback. So there's a list of these 12 principles. And that is actually the foundation of Agile. So it's really about iterative, customer-focused building and learning, people over process. They're kind of like the key foundations.

Josh: Well, you think about like, especially at that time and being in technology, you think about like developers just getting in their head, like, you know, obsessing over code and forgetting that, oh, like someone's going to eventually, you know, have to click a button here or do this or how would that— and I guess feeds into the UX, UI, like all of these different things as well.

Kylie: And so now that kind of principle from agile software development has been broadened out into agile project management or into other kind of industries. Obviously we're trying to apply some of that to filmmaking, but I guess it's just, yeah, it's really about making sure that always be shipping, always be testing, always be connecting with your customer.

Josh: Where do you think people mostly go wrong if a business says, oh, we do Agile, uh, what is it? What I mean, what's the telltale sign that they're doing it wrong?

Kylie: For me is that they have a hierarchical structure and they're in silos. So, um, team— being in a collaborative team, it's essential to have all the decision makers on how you're going to be working. And a big part of Agile is the people who are working closest to the product have the deepest understanding of the product. So that's where this kind of, I guess, servant-master idea comes in, where you're, as a boss, you're no longer telling people what to do. You're listening to what the team needs to do to deliver on the outcome. So yes, you choose the outcome, but how the team gets there, that's not really up to you. So as soon as I see an organisation that still has lots of hierarchy in it and lots of managers, and you are, yeah, we're really agile, but you just have to fill out this procurement form. Yeah, like, I mean, that's a pretty— you're dead in the water pretty much.

Josh: Yeah. And so what— from going back to the social media stuff, so you've— you took 6 months off, you're spending time from a personal point of view, that sort of internal work. Where are you at the moment in that journey, do you think?

Kylie: Well, it was a really big step to, um, because obviously we want to walk the talk And obviously we believe in it. I mean, I 100% back when my brother first introduced it to me and I was like, this is bullshit. I'm now fully evangelized. I'm fully, I'm fully embracing. And so when we're writing the book, there's a platform called Lean Publishing, LeanPub. And so we're writing the book in the same way where we're basically putting it out there as we write it so we can learn. It was a really big deal for me to push publish on the first 39 pages like 2 weeks ago. And, you know, I have been resistant to doing that because of what that felt like. I'm making a public declaration. I better finish the book.

Josh: You don't actually have to finish this ask me with the Seth Godin.

Kylie: And so, yeah, so I'm just, well, at least give it a try. So I am feeling like as we're writing that, that I will want to engage more on social to talk more about it. I am interested in maybe having meetups again and re-engaging. So So I definitely think that's probably going to come with that. But running a, you know, running any kind of large project, it does take a lot of deep thinking work and it's really easy to get distracted. Like, social's so fun. It's so, like, it's so distracting and lovely.

Josh: So you're spending, you're still spending time looking at people's storeys and doing all that sort of stuff?

Kylie: Yeah, I am still. I try and, um, I'm trying to limit it somewhat. And actually, I preferred it when I was posting a lot because I feel like that was at least a creative outlet. So yeah, I think once again, for for me, more doing and less consuming is part of the challenge.

Tommy: She's back on the Gary Vee.

Josh: Always be contenting.

Tommy: I mean, I know exactly what you meant about Gary Vee and you kind of come in and out. I definitely am inspired from seeing him.

Kylie: Yeah.

Tommy: Even if it's just to post one or two more bits of content, not your 100, Gaz.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Fucking get real. But yeah, no, this is one for you today. One piece of content. We'll get that out there, but it's just a pretty big piece of content. Yeah, yeah, we can chop this up and do 100 bits if you want.

Kylie: Definitely, that would really work for me. I don't have to do anything for the next 100 days.

Tommy: How about your next 100 posts that all go out today and it's just bit, 1 minute, 1 minute, 1 minute. How many minutes we at, Mr. 97? 60. All right, 60 bits so far, but we just double it. We get to get into 100. I mean, 30-second pieces.

Josh: The thing is that It's normally in the middle area. It's in the grey area, right? Like I read Cal Newport's books, Deep Work or Digital Minimalism, and then you, all of a sudden you shut everything off and shut everything down. And then, you know, like I've had the Gary Vee experience over the years and I think there's some somewhere in the middle.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: Yeah.

Josh: I remember saying Tommy and I were looking at doing a documentary, started doing research on sort of alcohol consumption in Australia. This was a couple of years ago before the podcast, and I saw this bell curve based on, uh, it was around mental illness. It was basically saying people who have high consumptions of alcohol are more likely to experience issues around mental health. But then the other interesting thing is people who had no alcohol at all also were more likely to experience it. And something about this middle ground, I was like, fuck, maybe— like, I didn't drink at all at that point, uh, and now I'm a 5 days a week kind of guy. No, definitely not. But I started going like, oh, you know what, like, maybe, maybe these extremes that I'm working in, yeah, are actually making me sicker. Maybe I need to just fucking chill out a bit.

Kylie: That's so interesting.

Josh: Which I find hard because for me, some of these things are actual, like me having sugar, me opening that floodgate, it's just dominoes.

Kylie: I think what's been really fascinating for me in the last 6 months is I made an active decision. So I was working in a festival event space, which is, I mean, it's so easy to be a workaholic in that space. Also in the film industry. It's like, ah, am I a workaholic because I'm in festivals and film or Am I in festivals and film because I'm a workaholic? Yeah. And I really wanted to question why I was doing that, set some boundaries for myself, and really think about what I wanted to be doing. I just couldn't do it in that environment anymore. So that in itself has been a massive shift for me. And what I found is I just want to be a little bit kinder and gentler to myself and to others. And sometimes that means I'm going to be posting every day Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I listen to podcasts every day for, you know, a month and then I'm like, I don't want to listen to podcasts anymore. I'm going to read a book and I'm just, you know what, that's okay. Yeah. And just be a bit more gentle. Yeah. I get really obsessed with something and I go pretty deep in and then I'm like, moving on and that's okay.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: So I'm just trying to be a little bit more gentle with myself. Let go of the hustle, let go of the grind and just be a little bit more gentle.

Josh: Definitely. I mean, What's your relationship with ambition? Because I think that for me, what you're saying resonates. I think that Tommy would agree that he sees me going so deep on certain things and can see where it can get unproductive or whatever. But then when I completely remove myself, then I'm like, am I losing some of that ambition?

Kylie: Well, I'm not sure if it's ambition for me. I do get— I think I'm just recognising that I am a person that if I'm interested in something, I'm going to get pretty obsessed about it and interested in it, and that's okay. And some people like having more generalist kind of skills, and that's also okay. And I'm just not going to give myself a hard time recognising that if I watch 8 hours of YouTube videos about— and I'm not watching YouTube video, I'm watching YouTube videos about YouTube. Yeah, you know, it's very meta. Yeah, that's okay.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And I can also let go of that. I guess ambition for me is and I'm probably in a slightly different space in my career. I guess I've never really made this, you know, if you look at my CV, it's a bit of an all over the place.

Josh: I'm also very impressive though.

Kylie: Thank you. But I really make decisions based on what is exciting to me at that time and what can I learn from. And I don't really care about titles or status or even money in that kind of way. But I do care deeply about am I doing something with integrity? Am I doing something that's creatively interesting to me? And I guess with Lean Filmmaking, as that's ongoing, is, is it something that's going to help someone like it helped me? How can I help others to maybe— the film industry is really a tough, tough industry, like any kind of glamorous industry where it's very competitive. There's got to be a place for other people who are like me, who are maybe not driven by those maybe traditional things, and how can I contribute to that?

Josh: It's fucking refreshing, don't you think?

Tommy: Yeah, I love listening to you.

Josh: I mean, is it going to be an audiobook? I mean, if you think about where we're like, TJ, if you think at the start of the week and what we like, you know, we're in a convention centre with 5,000 people and it's 10x, and it's like you're not doing enough. And it's a— to me, like, it's refreshing to know, like, there is the, the other, the other side. What do you, what do you think?

Tommy: Yeah, I think that, you know, the guy, the girl that lives on a farm that's quit everything and writing this book, and you're reading—

Kylie: I'm not living on a farm.

Tommy: But then it's like, you see them, she did a regional—

Josh: like, the film, it was just like that.

Tommy: That's their success. And then you're like, oh, that sounds appealing to me. And then you hear the other person that's a hustler. It's like, these are all just people's version of success. So they're articulating what they've experienced.

Josh: Right.

Tommy: And it's like the being into Gary Vee, not being into Gary Vee, being into, you know, someone, you know, Seth Godin, not being in Seth Godin. We come into these people and we find them and they resonate at a certain time. You know, I've been into Brené Brown for a heap of time.

Kylie: I love Brené.

Tommy: Yeah. You know, I'm too vulnerable now. I've got to go the other way.

Josh: I don't know.

Tommy: So I think like that's where it is, and you're making something for someone at a specific point of the journey.

Kylie: Yeah, I agree. And I've really let go of— I mean, I deeply understand that what we're working on is not for everyone, and that is for a very— it's for a group of people who are looking for maybe an alternative and a different way of doing things. And that's absolutely okay with me. Um, I also, because I guess I'm really grateful that I discovered minimalism about the same time that I was kind of making my film. And really, Leo Babauta's work is really amazing. And Zen Habits and his philosophy on things really had a massive impact on my life. And all of that has definitely fed into this. So I think having— once you start living a little bit outside of the norm and give yourself permission to do things slightly differently, I think it also does give you permission to think about success in your own way. So for example, I haven't— I don't own a car. I haven't, haven't had a car for 6 years actually. Around that time, about 6 years ago, I separated from a long-term relationship and I basically— it was the right time for me. I had been exploring minimalism for quite a few years and I was like, I'm basically letting go of 90% of my possessions.

Josh: So I walked out very literally. I really did.

Kylie: And actually I went and lived in a hotel hotel for 5 months because I was like, I was at the festival, I didn't have time to really even think about that. And I walked out, I didn't have a stick of furniture, I didn't have— basically all of my belongings fit in the back of a car. And I'm like, this one, I'm quite old, I'm over 40 when this happens.

Josh: Did they make your bed every day at the hotel?

Kylie: Well, when you live in a hotel, um, it is— well, when the hotel that I lived in, which was a very fancy Art Series hotel, it was the best.

Josh: It was a mini bar for free.

Kylie: No, sadly. Where is—

Josh: where's 3D Doll? You still have to pay for a minibar.

Kylie: Actually, I got them to take the minibar out.

Josh: Really?

Kylie: Yeah, because I was there for 5 months. And so you do get included. They do clean your room, make your bed once a week. So fresh towels, fresh linen, and they clean every week. And it was before self-care was a thing. It was like the best thing in terms of self-care to be able to just live in a hotel for 5 months.

Josh: That is pushback Airbnb generation if I've ever seen it, isn't it? That is awesome.

Kylie: And so I really, I guess what I discovered in living, basically you're living in one room, is that, well, I really don't need that much. I'm okay with this. And then when I did eventually feel like I was ready to move out and get an apartment and I had to purchase every single thing from a teaspoon to a bed, I was just very, very conscious. Like, I didn't buy bookshelves, I didn't buy pots and pans. I did, like, I just have very— and I'm just really clear about what I care about. Yeah. Um, so So that has really helped to redefine what success means to me or what's important to me.

Tommy: Did you work out any hacks? You know, like when I'm in a hotel and I'm walking past the cart where they're cleaning, I'll just grab a few more coffees or grab a few little biscuits.

Kylie: I mean, I was obsessed with stockpiling the toilet paper. I will not lie because I was just like, oh, they're cleaning.

Tommy: I better just grab one of those.

Kylie: Yeah, I did have that a lot.

Tommy: Grab a few cookies, grab a few hot chocolate.

Kylie: The concierge does know you obviously because you're, when you're living there. So it's a slightly— and room service is really easy when you're obviously living in a hotel and you just like, I used to pay the bill once a month, right? It's easy to go through a lot of room service when you're only paying once a month.

Josh: Hopefully Trev's credit card wasn't on it.

Kylie: I wish it was, that would have made it so great.

Josh: The hotel thing, I just want to speak about for a few more minutes. This is an absolute— this has rattled me to the core.

Tommy: Did you ever boil an egg in the kettle?

Kylie: So here's the great thing. The hotel that I I stayed in. So it's the Blackman, which is just on St Kilda Road, part of the art series. And so first of all, they kind of, they're called artist residencies because they're awesome at marketing and I'm a sucker for good marketing.

Josh: Did you at least have a canvas set up in the room?

Kylie: I did not. I'm writing my book. So, you know, it's a beautifully artistically creative, obviously Blackman's work is around the building and his obsession with Alice in Wonderland. So lots of little rabbits everywhere. So it's just a great environment.

Tommy: It's not real, not real. Like, not real. Not real rabbits.

Kylie: Painted rabbits.

Tommy: Painted rabbits. Yeah, I've been there. It's cute.

Kylie: It was really cute. It's really great. And the room that I stayed in, it did have a full kitchen. So there was a full-size fridge. There was a stove. There was, you know, stovetop and a sink. And so basically it's just like a really basic kind of version of a kitchen. So I did cook on occasion. But here's the thing, I guess I'm just not really interested in cooking.

Tommy: Yeah, some of that.

Kylie: And I'm okay with that.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And so I only need minimal supplies. And even now I have made a conscious effort to cut out categories of things that I'm not interested in. So for example, baking, could not give two shits. So I don't have to have lots of pans and pastry brushes and whiskey things, whatever they are.

Josh: I love that, like just cutting out categories.

Kylie: Cutting out categories is awesome.

Josh: Organised August, I should cut out a bunch of categories.

Tommy: What's your first? What would you do?

Kylie: Well, yeah.

Tommy: I mean, you've cut out a fair few without even doing it.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Cut out assembly.

Josh: You don't cook hardly.

Tommy: Wow.

Josh: Now what's some categories?

Tommy: What are some categories?

Kylie: So how I looked at it is was, so, you know, baking was a great category for me because I'm not interested. Cooking, I simplified because basically I just have half a dozen or so recipes that are really easy to make and don't require any special equipment or special spices or anything. So I won't buy a one-off spice for something.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: Also, I live in the city. And I eat out a lot and that's more important to me.

Tommy: Yeah.

Kylie: Another category I cut out, so weird category is nail polish. You might also have to cut this category out. It's like you think about nail polish and you're putting on nail polish or you may not, but it has other things like you have to take it off again and you need nail polish remover and you need wipes and there's a whole category of things. So if you just decide not to wear nail polish, you can cut out that whole category.

Josh: That's great. I love it.

Kylie: I don't no longer wear perfume. I read a fantastic book called The Case Against Fragrance by Kate Holden, Australian author. And the day after reading that, I'm like, I'm never wearing perfume ever again.

Josh: Sorry about the incense.

Kylie: Yeah, the incense is a bit stinky. I do have quite a strong reaction to fragrances, but also just like the fact that I had not ever thought about why I still do wear deodorant, just to be fair. No one has said to my face that I'm stinky. So I don't know, that could still happen. Obviously not having a car completely cuts out so many awesome things. I don't have to worry about petrol or insurance, or is the car getting broken into, or I don't know, a myriad of— there's so many. With books, I guess, because I do love books, but I really minimise my books. So now I just have one shelf for books and I don't go over that, and then I have a Kindle. So I digitise everything. Yeah, basically everything that can be digital, I try to.

Josh: What about eating out? Do you have rules around if I'm gonna get food, I have to sit in at the restaurant or anything like that?

Kylie: No.

Josh: Okay, good, because I just eat like— yeah, because I, uh, I do a fair bit of like delivery type stuff. And then so I was like, okay, maybe if I want to restrict it, like at the moment I'm testing something where I take a photo of everything that I eat.

Kylie: Yeah, I mean, I have gone through phases. I did go into meal prepping pretty hard. Yeah. And now I've backed off on that a bit. So essentially I currently, my system is, I buy, because I don't have a car either. So I buy my groceries online. I do a big shop maybe once every 6 weeks. And then I spend 5 hours making my 5 recipes that I like to make.

Josh: What are the 5 recipes?

Kylie: I was like spaghetti bolognese and tuna pasta.

Tommy: Stuff you can keep for a while.

Josh: Yeah.

Kylie: And then I just freeze it.

Tommy: Great. Great.

Kylie: And then my goal is always, I love festivals and events and I love living in the city so I can and I work in an industry where I can really take advantage of that. And that's why I keep the food in the freezer. So if I'm home, great, it's there. If it's not and suddenly I go, oh, there's a show, there's a film happening tonight. Do you want to come to a film? I don't have to worry about any food going off and I just eat out.

Josh: That's great.

Kylie: So that's kind of, and once again, I have chosen, I'm happily single. I'm also child-free by choice. And so those things also cut out pretty major categories of items as well that I don't need.

Tommy: Oh, you got a lot of shit when you have a kid.

Kylie: Kid.

Josh: Exactly.

Kylie: So that is a hard category to count.

Tommy: As in real shit. And ooshies too.

Kylie: You can probably categorise the shit.

Josh: Talking about films, Melbourne International Film Festival's on at the moment. I haven't been in a few years. Are there any films that you would recommend going and seeing?

Kylie: I would recommend every single person in this country going and seeing The Australian Dream. It's the Adam Goodes story. It's coming out in cinemas August 22nd, and it was the opening night film. They're doing some encore screenings actually this weekend. I do not care about the AFL at all.

Tommy: Category that was cut.

Kylie: Well and truly cut. I don't know if it ever existed, to be fair. That was easy to let go of. Sporting equipment is another category I really let go of. Don't need rollerblades or lacrosse equipment.

Tommy: Pads from cricket.

Kylie: Don't need any of that. So, but it is an incredible film because, um, Adam and Stan Grant, who wrote it, it is— it's not like homework. It is actually like the brilliant start to a conversation. It's so heartfelt. It's really empathetic. It is really eye-opening, and it's really coming from a place of compassion, not from blaming. And actually to really have tough conversations about systemic racism that we have in this country, this film is an incredible place to start. It is really a gift to Australians and the world. And I've been— so I've been going to opening night of MIFC for probably the last decade. And, you know, opening nights are hard to schedule. I do not wish it upon anyone. It's tough to get it right. You've got a lot of sponsors in the room. You've got a lot of, you know, the VIPs.

Tommy: And schedule meaning picking a film that will show that night.

Kylie: Yeah, that will show that night. It's really hard to programme opening nights, you know, and you want to showcase the festival and it's probably got to be Australian or some connection. And sometimes there's a lot of polite clapping at the end of films. This year I have never experienced anything like it. I'm kind of getting chills thinking about it. At the end of the film, there was this moment of silence and then everyone just got up on their feet. Applause, standing ovation. Through the entire credits. I have never experienced that at Myth. And then the lights came up, and so there's like 2,400 people in the space.

Josh: An experience.

Kylie: And no one wanted to stop clapping. Yeah, the lights are up and we're like, no, fucker, we're clapping, we're gonna keep clapping.

Tommy: Was Adam there?

Kylie: Adam was there, and Stan was there, and they— and it was, it was kind of awkward, but we were like, we don't care. Everyone just kind of turned to it. Actually, there were about 200 of of, um, their guests from their family and friends, and it was a really incredible vibe having them there. And everyone was just like, I'm just gonna clap in your direction until you exit. Just like, yeah, whenever you feel like it, just go exit. But it was really amazing. People didn't want to leave. And just, yeah, it was really emotional. So please go and see it.

Tommy: Is it a biopic or a doco?

Kylie: So it's a doco, and it really follows, I guess, the storey of, um, how you know, Adam's background and how he became a footballer, and then really the racism that he experienced. And for people who are into sports and AFL, they probably know a lot more about it. For me, it was really interesting to see that perspective of it. And then also, what can we do about it and what did he do about it and how can we start a conversation?

Tommy: We had nothing to do with the AFL for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, how hard— that's— it's amazing. Amazing storey from just hearing the little bits about it now.

Kylie: I want to say it's, it's, I, yeah, highly recommend.

Josh: Yeah. Kylie, thanks for coming on the show. We should, I feel like we need to get you back very soon just because we could be talking.

Tommy: Can you bring me one of your frozen spag bowls, please? Yeah, I'm cutting the category of cooking, so I need you, need your help.

Josh: I do like that. It's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. On, just quickly, on the film, is it like a release village cinemas and stuff, or you're gonna have to go to special?

Kylie: No, I think it's going to be abroad. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm confident it's going to be a pretty wide release.

Josh: Yeah, that's cool.

Tommy: It's got a lot of publicity, so I think, yeah, hopefully.

Kylie: So hopefully go see it as soon as it comes out so more people have the opportunity to go see it.

Josh: Yeah, I'll definitely see it. And Kylie, we know that you're not posting that much on Instagram, but you do have leanfilmmaking.com. If people put in their email address, they'll— will they get access to the start of the book?

Kylie: Absolutely, yes. So if you put in your— if you sign up to our e-news. The next time we update it, I'll send out an email and you can get free access to the book.

Tommy: Amazing. Good.

Josh: Awesome. It's the Daily Talk Show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Tommy: See you guys.