Peaceful Living With Tommy's Mum

Tommy: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 420.

Tommy: It is weekend banter, and I got my mama in the studio.

Josh: Joanne, thank you for being here.

Joanne: My pleasure.

Tommy: Go easy on her, Josh. I know you like to fucking rev up my family. She's a bit nervous.

Josh: Well, she— you've brought in a gift for us.

Tommy: Josh thought it was a blunt because it's 420.

Josh: Yeah, and it looks, it looks a little bit like that. What did you describe it? It had the word marijuana in it, didn't it? What was that?

Joanne: No, it was, uh, Shroff Cannabisapa.

Josh: Cannabis.

Joanne: Cannabisapa. He was the maker of this particular incense in India.

Tommy: So I tell you, Josh, growing up in the Jacket household, this was aplenty. I just remember— is this— have you had this since I was about 2? This, this exact bag?

Joanne: Yeah. Oh no, I've got hundreds of them.

Tommy: Yeah, what, did you get a good deal when I was 4?

Joanne: And you had to buy 100 or 200 bundles.

Josh: You're really— you're speaking to me with it. It's like my Still Like an Artist books. You end up with them for a long time. You end up gifting them out.

Tommy: But so you're saying this is probably 10, 15, 20 years old?

Joanne: Oh, more.

Tommy: Oh, really?

Joanne: 40.

Tommy: So, wow. I'm going to light one up.

Josh: Wait, so how did this come about, Joanne? How did you end up with these? Incense?

Joanne: Well, they, they were used at the Gita School of Yoga where I attended and was trained and spent many, many years. And, um, it was always wafting through the rooms. And, and when I left and started my own yoga school, I thought, I want that wafting through my place. So I ordered it from India.

Josh: Yeah.

Joanne: And, uh, good deal. Good deal.

Josh: Alibaba, or how do you get the money?

Joanne: You had to send the cash.

Tommy: Send physical cash?

Joanne: Um, no, no, it was some sort of wire transfer. Yeah, it was like that. You had to go to the bank and they did very old school.

Tommy: Yeah.

Joanne: And, um, anyway, uh, you sent that off and then you wait and wait and wait. And I've waited 2 years At that point you think it's a scam. I thought, oh, you know, I'm not going to ever get this.

Tommy: How much cash did you drop?

Joanne: I can't remember.

Tommy: Was Dad furious?

Joanne: No, was not.

Josh: What did you do in the meantime? I mean, you didn't have any incense. Did you, did you get some locally?

Tommy: She went and bought a local bunch, and that's why this has only just come out because she bought another 200 bags from another shop. Um, you, Mum, you've been doing yoga well before it was cool.

Joanne: Well, cool in maybe Melbourne, Australia, but yoga's been around a long time.

Tommy: Yeah, I guess what I mean is it being hip. I mean, it's never been cooler now to meditate, to do yoga and a bunch of other stuff. But those two in particular you've been doing forever. You met Dad at a yoga center. Everyone thought he was gay because they thought, who could be? Who's this guy going to yoga?

Josh: What year was it?

Joanne: No. Well, I was Yes, Tim and Colin were avid students at the school. And I, you know, Tim and I sort of connected. And my, one of my beautiful teachers, she said to me, oh no, then I said, we had a very short engagement. It wasn't even engagement, but a sort of friendship before I suddenly announced that we were getting married.

Tommy: They got married, they met and married within 3 months.

Joanne: Yep.

Josh: That's crazy quick. I mean, that's quicker than the incense.

Joanne: Well, anyway, Eva, she said she's a Hungarian lady and she said to me, have you tried it?

Tommy: Mr. 97, what Mum's talking about is sex. Just letting you just wonder. I mean, I thought he might have dropped behind there.

Josh: Were they doing, is it like Bikram yoga?

Tommy: Don't insult my mother.

Josh: What does that mean?

Tommy: We can get to that bullshit soon, but Mum's finishing your story.

Mason: Story.

Joanne: So she said, have you tried it? And at that stage, hold on, I had to say no.

Tommy: This is too much info for me.

Josh: What about Colin? Who was Colin? You said—

Tommy: Just let me finish the story. Colin's best mate.

Josh: You've heard— this is one of those times where you've heard the story.

Tommy: I don't know anything. It's got nothing to do with Colin. Colin's the guy who we're going to get on the show. It's my dad's best friend. My dad's best friend.

Josh: Okay, I'm filling in the gaps. We don't know who Colin is.

Joanne: So anyway, that's really the end of the story.

Josh: Colin was definitely irrelevant.

Tommy: I mean, TJ, there must have been—

Josh: was there anything else to the storey or no? I'm just saying that's burning on the table now.

Joanne: I said no, and, um, we proceeded with our relationship and we got married. And 40 years— we had our 40th anniversary.

Josh: Oh, congratulations! I think that's worth it. It's worth the clap.

Joanne: I mean, thank you. 40 years together.

Tommy: Well, well survived.

Joanne: Me and Timbo.

Tommy: Yeah. Um, and so Dad actually— so he started the yoga school And do you think he and yourself— what do you think he is? It was unusual. Like, obviously she's thinking, oh, there's not as many men in there doing yoga and things like that.

Joanne: Eva, in her wisdom, she said, well, most of the men that do yoga are gay, which is lovely.

Tommy: I mean, the gays are always on to good shit.

Joanne: They are.

Tommy: Yeah, they're on the yoga surf.

Joanne: They're sensitive, you see. The greatest majority of people at that school, and there were hundreds, mainly women, but there were men, and they were lovely men, sensitive and progressive and just looking for something deeper than maybe what one can get out of life.

Josh: And so how did you actually end up getting into yoga in the first place?

Joanne: Well, that's another story.

Tommy: Does it involve Colin?

Joanne: No, no, it does not involve—

Tommy: we'll do a full half hour on who Colin is.

Josh: I'd appreciate that.

Joanne: So I was, um, I was a travel industry sales representative for Budget Rent-A-Car.

Tommy: Budget.

Joanne: And this is back in the '70s. And I was calling on a hotel chain and the woman there that was the representative of the Pamelia actually in Perth. And she said to me, Joanne, you have a permanent frown on your face. You must do yoga.

Tommy: So do you think you did? Probably. Well, I mean, there is about— Mark Wahlberg has one, but he's made millions of dollars out of it. Yeah, but he's constantly like, you know.

Josh: Also, I would tell someone to fuck off if they told me they had a frown.

Joanne: That really wasn't, you know, my intention to, you know, have a frown on my face.

Tommy: No, it's resting bitch face almost. Do you know that, Mum?

Joanne: No.

Tommy: Resting bitch face. You know, when people that just look a bit pissed, pissed off, they're always just like, something wrong with you?

Josh: Were you unhappy at that point?

Joanne: No, oh, probably a bit, you know, but—

Tommy: Completely lying.

Joanne: No, no, no, it was, life was challenging in some ways, but no, I was okay. Anyway, she said, "You really must do yoga." She was a part-time yoga teacher herself, and she rang up the Gita School, she found out when the classes began, she said, "There you go, da da da." And I went along and I booked in and I went along, and from that day to this day, never looked back.

Tommy: So Gita, uh, there was a school here. There's a sign across the road from our office that says Gita Yoga School.

Joanne: Well, they're not there anymore, but that's not where I went. I was, um, the principal of the Gita School, uh, retired in the '80s. That was Margaret Segesman. She was my teacher. And, um, the school then was in Alfred Place off Collins Street, 100 Collins Street. Really unique and beautiful place. It was, it was an oasis in the city, you know. And as a student, I used to rush there from my corporate job and breathe out, you know, because it was all very Japanese-y, minimalist and stones on the floor. And the studios were just so beautiful, just big spaces.

Tommy: There's definitely something in the incense. They were burning some cannabisitis or whatever it's called.

Joanne: And the funny thing is, you know, we had tradesmen sometimes coming into the school because I eventually worked there and they'd come in and they'd say, where are all the chairs? Where are the chairs? Where do you sit down? Well, there was only— there were no chairs except in the office and in Margaret's office, but not in the studios. There were no chairs. So everyone sat on the floor.

Josh: What were you doing at Budget? Were you like behind? Were you booking out cars?

Joanne: In the very beginning I was, yes. I was a rental representative and/or hostess, as we were called in those days. And I progressed from there to be a travel industry rep and then a corporate industry rep. And then I was the, the national training officer. So I had a wonderful job and thank you, Bob Ansett and Josie, wonderful bosses. Bob has been an enormous influence in my life along with Margaret Segesman and my other wonderful yoga teachers.

Tommy: But Bob owned the— Bob owned Budget. And so Bob Ansett, his father, Reg Ansett, was the founder of Ansett Airways, airline, which— so Mum's best friends with Josie, who is Bob's wife, and they work together. I've seen some old photos of them in the paper in their budget outfit.

Josh: Yeah. Was it a big deal when you left budget? And was the first thing that you did, did you go and do yoga full time?

Joanne: Well, yeah, I left budget to go to work full time at the yoga school. And that's another funny little thing. One of the girls there, she said to me, 'Oh, yoga. What sort of— do you wear a habit?' Now, do you know what a habit is?

Tommy: A bad habit? He's got a couple.

Josh: On your head? Like a habit?

Tommy: Yeah, what is a habit?

Joanne: Well, a habit's like nuns wear habits.

Josh: Oh, okay.

Joanne: Swamis wear habits.

Tommy: Hare Krishnas. Is that a habit?

Joanne: Well, that's a, you could call it a habit.

Tommy: A version, yeah.

Joanne: You could call that a habit. So, I mean, that was the sort of perception of going to work in a yoga school that you might wear the robes, you know. But my answer to that was no. I'll be wearing a sexy black leotard. Which we all did. We all wore.

Josh: Was faith involved?

Joanne: Faith?

Josh: Faith. Like religion? Was it like it was that part?

Joanne: Yoga's not a religion. Yoga is open to all religions. Religion in its true sense means a pathway toward liberation. You could say also a pathway to God if you want to. And so religious, it does kind of follow the Hindu, some of the Hindu traditions and teachings, most definitely the Bhagavad Gita, which is a renowned Hindu text. It's actually the Hindu Bible. And that's a well-known text to study. And Patanjali's Yoga Sutras is another. These are the classic texts around the teachings of yoga.

Tommy: And then you've got Buddhism.

Joanne: Well, just let me say this. The classic teachings around yoga, which, um, really teach you how to live, how to live a good and happy and, and fruitful life. And that, that of course then is just encompasses so much.

Josh: Was that what drew you to yoga? Like, was, was it the, the physical actions, or was it more turning the frown upside down?

Joanne: Yeah, well, I've always been drawn to some sort of physical action because I did many years of ballet, but, um, it wasn't just that. No, it wasn't just that. What yoga encompassed was actually, uh, the, the way to understand how to relax, how to relax deeply within yourself. And, and of course, that's the prerequisite for taking your studies and your practises further towards meditation.

Tommy: Is it something that people who aren't relaxed gravitate towards? Is it like for you, were you not relaxed? I mean, you got told you had a frown.

Joanne: No, I don't think I was relaxed. I, I really don't I was. I was probably the biggest stress ball out.

Tommy: I think I probably stuffed it up as well when I came into this world. It's probably hard to relax. Me? Yeah, when I was around. I mean, I'm still around, what am I saying? But growing up, it's, you know.

Joanne: Well, it was— well, any childhood, growing up and parent— parental relationships and boys, you know, experimenting and risk-taking and rebelling and all those kind of things. That, that's natural, and of course it impacts on you, um, on your nervous system as a mother. Um, but well, through yoga, I'm sure I was able to cope a lot better.

Tommy: Um, meditation— I mean, was this— was it a huge component of yoga when yoga was around 50 years ago?

Joanne: Meditation.

Tommy: Yeah, was it? Because I mean, you can go to a lot of places now and you can do mindfulness through yoga, so you're kind of getting a taste of what meditation or mindfulness is. What was— I know Mum meditates every single day, hasn't missed a day. I always say, um, would you take a day off? Never. How many times a day do you meditate?

Joanne: Well, usually formally twice, but What's the longest meditation you've done?

Tommy: Just flexing for Mum here.

Joanne: Well, I did an all-day.

Josh: All day?

Joanne: All day. Well, that's, you know, that's with a group and that was, that's what you can do.

Josh: But look, why can you do it in a group versus on your own?

Joanne: No. Well, because you've had the setup, you go to a place, you know, that's your intention to do a meditation all day. But you do have breaks. You know, you don't talk or anything. But the purpose is to go quite deep, deeply into meditation.

Tommy: So was meditation hand in hand with yoga 40, 50 years ago?

Joanne: Yeah, it was.

Mason: It was?

Joanne: Where I went to the yoga school, it definitely was. There was always an enormous emphasis placed around relaxing because Margaret Sigismund wrote a fantastic book called Wings of Power, and she tells her life storey in that book and how she used relaxation when she was, when she had terrible, well, she had TB.

Tommy: Tuberculosis.

Josh: Yeah.

Joanne: And she lost one lung and half another lung. And gee. And breathing was really very tough. And she had to learn not to panic about breathing. Oh God.

Josh: Well, with all these incense going.

Tommy: I'm surprised baby hasn't had an asthma attack.

Josh: Oh, no, no, I'm— Yeah, no one's had one yet.

Tommy: I just did a little—

Josh: What's he doing? Yeah, Richard.

Tommy: I just did a little Richard Janson.

Josh: Mr. 97, as part of Organised August, has started to meditate.

Joanne: Oh, good.

Josh: Now, one question. Now, you're getting worried that you're falling asleep?

Mason: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, you're lying down, you idiot.

Mason: No, no, no. I still get—

Joanne: Don't say idiot.

Mason: No.

Joanne: Nobody's an idiot.

Josh: But if there's a spectrum.

Mason: No, well, I remember, I remember like the first 5 to 10 minutes of— so I do like a 20-minute meditation, there's one that I do, um, and I remember the first 5 to 10 minutes, but then after that it's just a blank until, until he mentions that like, wake up and become aware of your surroundings, and that's when I come to. So like, all that's just blank.

Joanne: Like, you think you've dozed off.

Mason: Maybe, but it's weird because every time I've done it, I wake up at the exact or come to at the exact time when he says, become aware of your surroundings. So it's like, it's just a blank thing in my mind. I've got no idea what happens.

Joanne: It sounds to me like you're asleep. Because your mind never stops. Meditation is a great tool to train your mind to come back, to come back, to come back. Because the thoughts are just, you know, I mean, after 40 years of meditating, I'm still coming back, coming back, coming back to the object of your meditation, to prayer, to talking with God in the language of your heart. You know, the mind requires, It actually demands something to do because if it doesn't, what are you gonna do? You're ruminating, you're going off into stories, you're going off into thinking about, or worry, which is worse, about the past, your regrets. You know, the mind is amazing how it can bring up so much that you really don't want it to. So meditation, and I'll emphasise that before you meditate, before you actually even embark on meditation, meditation.

Tommy: Meditation, yeah, yeah, take medication before you embark on meditation.

Joanne: Make sure you take that medication. No, learn to relax, learn to be familiar with your physical body and—

Tommy: But that's probably, mindfulness. So I think because we've talked about the difference between meditation and mindfulness, and mindfulness practices, a lot of these apps, Sam Harris, it's, it's exactly that. It's like being able to remove the sense of having a body in the shape of it by channelling and, and focusing deeply on sensations, tingling and, and sounds and vision. So you— it's like becoming aware and mindful of the feeling of being in conscious— in, in consciousness. And is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying about— so relax, you know, because people might not understand that. And, and being in tune with your body, is that what that is?

Joanne: Yes. So you're not distracted by your body before you meditate, if that's it. But all those other things you were talking about, they're like technique.

Tommy: Yeah. So is that a technique to relax then?

Joanne: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that's preparation for, for meditation, to let your body relax but stay conscious. See, in, in relaxation, you go from thinking and doing to feeling and being. I like those words around that because it, it really is. You're Even when you're not relaxed, you're thinking and you're doing. When you go into relaxation, you're just feeling and being.

Tommy: So it's present, being very present.

Joanne: Present.

Josh: How can you do that and try and not fall asleep?

Joanne: Well, practice.

Josh: Yeah.

Joanne: Practice, because if you practise it enough and keep coming back, reminding yourself to wake up, coming back to that conscious state but still feeling that relaxation in your body, then you, you, you go beyond sleeping.

Tommy: I definitely felt— so are you— you're sitting up? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mason: It's, it's so weird though because it doesn't feel like I've woken up afterwards. It's just like one minute I can't remember anything and then I come to and you feel calm and you feel relaxed.

Tommy: Is it silent or are they— is he prompting it with a little bit of prompting?

Mason: Oh, so no, well, it's— there are prompts and then he goes silent and then there's a bit of music playing in the background as well.

Josh: What sort of music?

Tommy: Nicki Minaj?

Mason: No, it sounds like flutes and some calming music sort of thing.

Josh: What's your favourite music to listen to?

Joanne: I don't listen to music for meditation. No.

Josh: What about yoga?

Joanne: I like the music of Silence.

Josh: And so when you're— when you're doing the, the yo— like the meditation versus the yoga, are you doing it simultaneously, or there's a, there's a meditation and then a yoga? How does it work?

Joanne: Well, if you practise asana, asana is the physical aspect of yoga. I mean, everyone calls yoga— that calls asana yoga, but really in the truth, in the true sense sense of the word. Yoga encompasses an Eightfold Path starting— I call it the spiritual pyramid. And starting at the bottom— do you want to hear this?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Joanne: Starting at the bottom, you have what we call the yamas and the niyamas. These are Sanskrit words. The yamas are behaviours that, like non-violence, non-stealing, they're their truths. Like the Ten Commandments.

Tommy: Can you just have a chat to Dill about stealing my chips? Can you just tell him to fix up his yarmas?

Mason: No stealing.

Tommy: Yeah, what?

Joanne: They were good.

Tommy: I was just saying he's been stealing my chips at work.

Joanne: Oh, I get it. Yeah, okay, no more stealing.

Tommy: No more yarmas.

Joanne: Yarmas.

Tommy: Yarmas.

Joanne: And then you have the niyams, which are disciplines that involve your own personal hygiene and your self-study and that kind of thing. So really they form the basis of the triangle, of the spiritual triangle, before you even start to go up to meditation.

Josh: And so that's 2 and there's 8. So then what's the 3rd one?

Joanne: So the next one is asana. After yama, niyama, asana. You put your yamas and niyamas, or you never really have them in the, bag, so to speak, because it's an ongoing life, um, natural progression, you know, of observing your behavior, observing all, you know, all that kind of thing, which is far too deep to go into now. But after those two, you go to asana, which is— that's the physical side of yoga where you do the— all the postures that actually train your body and have a remarkable effect When you do classical yoga, classical yoga, you have postures that work on the endocrine gland system and in turn subtly on the chakras. Yeah, um, and Mason's actually got them tattooed up his back.

Tommy: He doesn't, but—

Joanne: and, um, you could— I— on a— in a lot of ways, asana can be a very effective meditative practise because you, you're in the present, you are mindful, you're thinking about your body, you're thinking of releasing tension when, when it's appropriate, and so forth. Anyway, after asana comes pranayama, which is the Sanskrit word for, um, life force energy, or breathing, breath. You can say that you, you learn to control the life force within your body. And then another after that is pratyahara, which is the withdrawal of the senses. Now in our everyday world, we are so stimulated by our senses, sight, smell, taste, et cetera. We are just so keyed into that. And we form an attachment to those senses. So fundamentally, we have an attachment to our senses and the material world and the physical body. And that's one of the things in the, in the real teachings of yoga that we need to go beyond, was that attachment.

Josh: Was that something that even all those years ago was a focus? Because if you look at now and how much, like, sensory overload we have, what was the equivalent back then? What were they like? Obviously now it's about scrolling on Instagram.

Joanne: Look, it was no different, actually, no different. There's always, there's always been something. It may not have been as fast-moving as we are now, but there's always been something. We've always had a mind, we've always had worries, we've always had concerns, we've always had competition. And, and so it's never been any different, really.

Josh: Were there certain things like what, like Don't spend too much time reading the newspaper. Like, was that like, what's the—

Joanne: Oh, well, when TV came in, that was the worst. You know, cinemas were going to close down. The film industry wasn't ever going to, you know, have another, make another film. And then children watching television, that was the end of children, you know, they were, you know, having, being able to watch television. So it was, it's never been any different. There's always something. So, but we as humankind with this amazing gift of the physical body, which it is a gift, and its mechanisms. If you spend time to just think about how your body works, it's miraculous.

Tommy: What about making a human? Like, it's crazy, me and you right now.

Joanne: Conception. Yeah. Absolutely amazing.

Tommy: It's phenomenal. I mean, it's almost like Every human being that is alive is super, I mean, lucky, or it's a miracle for it to have happened.

Joanne: Oh, absolutely. And you think that those cells that divide to make the eyes, the eyelashes, the fingernails, if those cells don't divide in the right way, something goes wrong.

Tommy: I mean, it's a— that is probably something, Josh, having a kid, you admiring your handiwork, like looking at your son, like looking at your son, sniffing him and You know, just looking at little nails. Like, I think that's probably one thing, because if you did that to my son, I'd fucking kill you. But when you can do it to your own kid, it's pretty fascinating. That's when you—

Joanne: it is fascinating.

Tommy: That's a feeling that hits you.

Joanne: Yes, children are just so beautiful.

Tommy: Some aren't. Jeez.

Joanne: Little chubby fingers.

Josh: What was Tommy like? So we've heard that he's got some feral stories. Oh yeah.

Tommy: How many we have?

Josh: How many triangles we got?

Joanne: I don't want to stop them.

Josh: We've got 7 at the moment.

Joanne: That pratyahara. Is the withdrawal of the senses, learning to turn off the sense stimulation from the outer world and turn inward. So that's the beginning of, of meditation too. And then you have, um, concentration, dharana. So concentration is then taking an object and being able to focus your mind completely upon that object. And then you have, um, dhyana, which is the next layer, and that's meditation, but that's bringing concentration to the point where you then turn your focus of concentration toward God, or towards the absolute, towards whatever you perceive as something greater than you. And then The very pinnacle of the triangle is what they call samadhi. And that is bliss, the bliss state. But look, never be told that anyone really experiences that. I mean, you may, we may have a glimpse of it. We may have, and I do take that back because some people—

Tommy: Stand a 180 again.

Joanne: Have a glimpse of that totally blissful state.

Tommy: Well, it's fleeting though, because I've asked you before, 'cause I think the modern, yoga, the modern meditation movement is people talking about, I've experienced moments of psychedelic feelings and moments. And I asked you that, I said, have you ever experienced like a, you know, that kind of a thing? And you kind of push back on that a little bit, which I—

Joanne: because it's a very private thing. But when you see that, when you see the psychedelic color, that's, that's not That's something else. It's more ego.

Tommy: But I'm not talking about taking substance to achieve that state. I'm talking about meditation.

Joanne: Well, that's why would you take substances when you can do it naturally?

Josh: But if you experience something like that, the bliss, well, you did say it was a personal—

Joanne: it is a personal thing. But I can't say that— look, I have beautiful moments of stillness and communion with God and and a guru too. So I think that's all you can ask in this, in your life, to just have those moments and to keep going and to keep deepening that. Because, you know, you're not gonna— rarely do you do it in a lifetime. We have many lifetimes, and if you're lucky enough, or blessed enough is a better word, to actually be born into a situation where you're able to study, where you're able to go to yoga, where you're able to go and, and have a teacher who's going to inspire you. All those things just come together because it's the right time for you.

Tommy: I think it's probably that people who market or share their experience of bliss in these moments, it's probably a a mark. It's a marketing tool.

Josh: I think it's ego as well. Like, it's probably similar to having a Rolex. You can say, oh, look, I'm, I'm getting bliss every weekend.

Tommy: Yeah, because then it's like, if you're someone who's done meditation for, you know, very long time and you're not out here saying, yeah, you get it, like, you could probably— I, I see the appeal that some people would have. It's like, I want to go to you because you were talking about this, you know. It's, um, It's—

Joanne: look, the spiritual path is not an easy one. And the path towards meditation, whether you like it or calling it that or not, it's a spiritual path.

Tommy: Do you think people who call themselves spiritual are probably not spiritual? I've heard that before, a bunch of people saying that.

Joanne: Well, that's their thing, you know. I just don't think you need to make that judgement and look after your own backyard.

Tommy: Yeah, true.

Joanne: Get your own sort of heart and mind in order. You don't You don't have to worry about what other people are doing because there's enough work to do on yourself. And, um, you know, I'm not saying that I know. I categorise myself as a beginner, you know. It's— you never stop learning. To be a beginner is a wonderful, wonderful thing because you always learn. You're always learning something new. To be open and receptive to new things. And on this path, always something new because you're learning about yourself more and more and more. And having children, well, now we can get on to Tommy.

Tommy: No, no, it's good.

Joanne: No, it's good. I have no bad things to say about Tommy.

Josh: I'm calling bullshit.

Joanne: I could even say that he has been one of my teachers, as all my children have been. All my children. I'm learning daily. From my children and from students and from friends.

Tommy: And it's, it's just from the podcast. Heard it, learned from Josh at all?

Joanne: Yes.

Tommy: Oh good, he learned, she learned what a squidgy could do. And clusterfuck.

Josh: Yeah, good. What did you—

Tommy: Mum, tell us, what did you think a clusterfuck meant? She said don't say it on the podcast.

Joanne: Has that got it? Has that got anything to do with a gangbang?

Tommy: It makes sense, a cluster of people fucking.

Josh: Yeah, it makes— yeah, it's its true origins, I believe. Um, yeah, so what was the, um, what were some of the times that you had to practise patience when, uh, bringing up Tommy?

Tommy: Can you turn the heater on, Mason? Thanks.

Josh: Are you very hot?

Joanne: Cold?

Tommy: Cold.

Mason: Oh, he's cold.

Josh: Baby's cold.

Joanne: Well, look, do you know, it doesn't occur to me to bring up these things because—

Tommy: Mum's shut out a lot from my childhood.

Joanne: Shutting it out. Look, Tommy is a beautiful man and a beautiful soul, as we all are. Yeah, everyone is a beautiful soul, and you have to see the soul In— see, the soul is so perfect, whole, and complete, and, and it's just this outer personality come ego that plays up a bit, you know. Now all that's in the past, and you just look forward.

Tommy: And she hasn't given you the answer you want. You're going to be more specific with the questioning.

Joanne: What do you really want to know?

Josh: I don't know, nothing particular. No, just—

Joanne: he's always been a gorgeous person, a gorgeous guy, you know.

Josh: So outside of his soul, his ego, what about his ego. I think it's interesting because, I mean, TJ shares a lot of storeys about him being a little shit.

Tommy: Yeah, I think it— no, but it was very hard for you, Mum, I think, growing up. Like, it was— there was a lot of pain and you stuck by during that and helped me. And, you know, it's why I am who I am today. But it's— and so I get it when it's hard to just recall. I think that's, you know, there's many stories. The time I had to get my stiffy put down with a bit of cold water out the back. The time you know, just silly. I mean, there's lots of storeys from when I was young, but I think, um, this— the stuff around the teacher, like, it's very— it's, um, yeah, it's— I'm pretty sensitive to a lot of the things from my past.

Joanne: Yeah, well, you were kind of rebellious and always, you know, such a spirit really, but in growing up, that spirit is really sometimes misdirected. And you can, you know, that's where the ego comes full force, you know, into, into a child.

Tommy: Is it armor, like, to get through the childhood?

Joanne: Then you get defensive, and that defensiveness causes you a whole lot of other stuff. So, you know, Pete— teachers were a little bit were wary of you.

Tommy: Oh, we spoke about Sue the other day, the one that you had the confrontation at the butcher.

Josh: So I think it's time to let these things—

Tommy: let these go. You started it.

Joanne: I hope she's not listening.

Tommy: Oh, I hope she is.

Josh: She listens.

Tommy: She'd probably think it's someone else.

Joanne: Yeah, well, see, you know, some teachers just don't get it.

Josh: Yeah, do you think that there was—

Joanne: like, look at the teachers at Clunes now. When he was at Clunes in Year 9— Year 9 is traditionally a really difficult time.

Tommy: And so a lot of schools, particularly boys, ship them off, ship the kids off for a month or a term. It's like, you know, the years you're going to rebel, let's get them into something.

Joanne: And that, that environment took you out of the traditional school behaviour into a an environment which said, okay, you've got autonomy here, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. You had all that, and that's what you thrived on. And the principal at Clunes said to me, Tommy wasn't just good, he was the best.

Tommy: But they also thought I was going to be the worst.

Josh: They thought, yes. Do you think that there's— I feel like growing up there were, there was kids who were naughty, and sometimes there was those cases where it's the parents who are laissez-faire, or a little bit sort of relaxed about the whole thing. And you see the teachers getting frustrated. Do you think there was a bit of that where you could see the soul, you could see the spirit, you could say that part of Tommy, and he— the other people were judging him on that ego or the outer shell?

Joanne: Yeah, well, they had to. It is their job to, um, keep peace in a classroom and to make sure that the rules are followed and all that kind of stuff. So look, they've got a hard job. Teachers have a hard job. And, you know, I don't really, um, blame them, I suppose I can say, for how they are, because they're dealing with a whole classroom of different personalities and trying to make the best of it. But look, that's all gone. Yeah.

Josh: What does discipline mean? Like, if you think about, um, how you actually work through all those sort of things. What does discipline mean to you?

Joanne: Well, discipline— I refer to discipline as a best friend because through discipline you come out of suffering and it teaches you to live well in the world. Not discipline like army discipline or anything, but self-discipline. And that it's very good to have self-discipline.

Josh: So if there's a parent listening to the show that has a son or daughter who is in the school system, or they're out and about and they're hearing the things that you heard with Tommy growing up, of some of those friction points of um, you know, him not fitting in, being different to other people. How, how do you think they should cope, or how do, how do they communicate? How do they get your, their point of view across? How do they reconcile?

Joanne: Okay, well, you've got to realise from the start that time passes, and that's got a big thing to do with it, but You just love, just, you know, show the love, show the love to your children. Um, don't put them on, don't put them on a spot in so many ways that they have to conform and everything, but show the love and, and be the, be the, the example to your children as to how they should be. They will catch on.

Tommy: It's, I mean, I think about me being into meditation now. I'm not into yoga, I don't do yoga, but I've done it many times across my life. But, um, it's— I definitely think about— I don't think I was highly disciplined or anything as a kid, but you're saying work on your own backyard, and that's you providing an environment for me and loving environment. And so like, I mean, all those things, right? It's like, what's the thing to do for a disciplined kid? Well, if you fucking have a marriage that is full falling apart and you were fighting and hating on each other and not showing a loving environment, which is in its all, it's got its own challenges. And so I, you know, can understand. But if that's the example that a kid has, you could imagine how it's not— it's going to rattle the child. And so that's where I think, as much as I was a little shit and had my own challenges, my environment was amazing, you know.

Josh: But do you think people think that kids acting out are reflecting on something that's happening at home? Do you think that that's like a mainstream point of view?

Tommy: So kids that act out have a bad home?

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I don't think it, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think it can be the go-to thought. Maybe, maybe it does. Maybe people do think that, but I don't think it's correct because kids can be kids. Like, I look at my son and how much of a little spirit he has and you know, mischievous and naughty and fun and happy and loving, like all these things. So I think he's got all of those elements of what I've had. So if he starts misbehaving and they look to us—

Josh: So what do you say in that situation if it turns out Bodhi's having trouble in school or he's fighting or things like that? How do you—

Tommy: I put it onto them. I mean, one woman said something about Bodhi And I said, so how, how are you going to handle this? Because it's—

Josh: But isn't it the parent's responsibility?

Tommy: But what, for what? How can, how can I handle, like, this is the thing, how can I, like, so if I'm not there and I say this is an environment of, you know, a school system, how have you handled this in the past? Surely this is not an edge case. Like, there's no edge case in school systems anymore. The kids have been naughty and—

Josh: But isn't there the assumption that the things that happen at home or the respect and all those sort of things then translate into other environments. So isn't the idea that if it starts at home, if the— like, I feel like when I was younger, when if there was people playing up, it was normally the conversation always led to he doesn't have X, Y, and Z at home.

Tommy: I mean, it's just looking to blame someone.

Joanne: It is.

Tommy: Essentially what you're saying. Exactly.

Josh: Well, isn't there some sort of responsibility?

Tommy: It's not as easy as just blaming. I think we do have responsibilities as parents to do as best as possible, but we can't talk about it at a mass scale that if kids misbehaving, blame the parents at home because they're fucking it up.

Josh: But is there a response? Like, you defaulted to it's a teacher's responsibility to work out—

Tommy: No, I was saying in a moment, if someone said that and I've said, okay, so how are you going to handle this in a school environment? What are the steps you're going to take here?

Josh: But that's not a reflective, self-reflective approach.

Tommy: No, but it's also trying to gauge what's the understanding here. Is it just this— is this a moment where someone is just passing blame in their way of communicating?

Josh: So the framing is, how can I understand? Not, what are you doing?

Joanne: Well, the other thing with a teacher, for instance, is to say, well, how can we work together with this to help overcome this problem, this behavioural problem? I don't know whether teachers would be open to that, but it is very important that there's communication, loving communication. And another thing is with children that may be a little bit challenging, you must have parental agreement, you know, like You can't just— this happened with you. It wasn't just me handing out discipline. It had to be, well, we're all doing this together. You, me, and Dad. And that's what happens. That's when, you know, there's unity there. And there's that agreement and the strength in unity there. You know, when you're all coming from the same place. That makes sense.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: And I don't think what I'm saying is that's the end of the conversation. It's understanding how a daycare or school implements discipline and then understanding how it's done at home because they're going to be different. You know, a parent implementing discipline is different to how a school does it. I'll beat the shit out of my son. No, I'm joking.

Josh: I wouldn't do that.

Tommy: So that's what I'm saying. It's not as easy as just having me telling you that, what do you do? And then that's the end of that conversation. It's okay, this is— kids are kids. There is be naughty kids and every kid in between going to any school across the world or daycare or whatever. And so there is like, educators learn this stuff. They are taught. Yeah, the elements, the psychology, the elements. And so how do we— if a kid, you know, this is why things like the naughty corner and detention, these things are actually created, right? Because it's not fucking unnormal.

Josh: But they were the, they were the sys— they're the systems that are put in place to try and manage.

Tommy: It's discipline though. Yeah, that is discipline.

Josh: So it's a systematised discipline, but then it needs to translate to home as well.

Tommy: Of course. Yeah, I mean, if a kid is just left to their own devices and is out all night when that, you know, just a young, young child— like, I remember the kids around, some kids around our neighborhood, some of the kids, you know, Um, roaming the streets. They were, and they were naughty. And so you could easily say that, ah, okay, that's a, that's a destructive path for a parent to go down. And so, but I don't think it's as easy as just handing out blame, right?

Joanne: So, and you've got to be very careful with blame. I don't like the blame game.

Josh: What about personal responsibility? What about like, so if I had a kid, I think if I had a kid, I was in they were misbehaving at school, my instinct would be, what am I doing? What do I need to do to help this? What's— and what am I doing? What am I not fostering? So there's love, but is there hard love, which is like, you know what, yeah, tough love, which is, you know, I can be loving, but you have to get up at this time and you need to be ready and you actually need to wear the correct shoes to school because That's what we've set out.

Joanne: Yes. Oh yeah. All that's just, that's the parenting 101.

Josh: Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: I mean, it should be done, right? I mean, there's a bunch of people that won't.

Joanne: Because parents have to be not only a parent but a teacher to their children. Not only a parent but a teacher to their children. And it involves a lot. It does involve a lot. And you have to have restraint, of course, as a parent as well, because times can get very, very, very difficult. We're all human, you know.

Tommy: I was meditating, sorry.

Josh: No, it's interesting. I think that, um, yeah, the— I think growing up, I think about like the bullies in school. And it was always— Yeah, I think like the interesting— I think a lot of people are. I think like for me, my frustration was always that it felt like there was— there'd be a dynamic where the kid would go and come into school and the parents would defend and be like, you know, he's so good at home or this is how— Like, this is— And it was— And it felt like, yeah, that the parents had fostered a relationship with their child, but there was the lack of self-reflection, it felt, in those moments of being like, oh look, there's these— he's coming into school and this X, Y, and Z's happening, maybe we should be actually doing something. I, I just know the conversations, having them with teachers, which is like, yeah, unfortunately, like, we bring this, you know, Josh, it's so sorry that you have to go through you know, this bullying, unfortunately, the, you know, there's, there's the changes aren't happening. So yeah, I think it's, it's an interesting one.

Tommy: I mean, it makes sense about how you approach this kind of stuff, and that's totally fine. I think it's, it's an experience you've had, but it's not the written-in-stone experience, you know, like I think about I think about my situation. I had teachers lying about shit. Remember when Ken Burns hit me on the head? I don't give a fuck, he's probably dead. Hope he is. No, that's a bit mean. Sorry, I do apologize. But he hit me on the head. And see, how emotionally triggering is childhood memories, right? So you— I see the physiological change in you when you talk about being bullied, right? And it's like, it's it's at a time where we're so sensitive. And so that's where I have empathy, not for the bully, but for the, the, the time that we're all going through at that time. Because I went through a tough time, right? I don't think I was bullying a heap of kids. I, I, the teachers definitely were struggling to have me in their, in their environment, their what they wanted as far as that, that environment.

Joanne: Well, they couldn't cope.

Tommy: They couldn't cope. And there is a bunch of kids that can't cope, and maybe it's the school system that's not right for them. But I remember some teachers flat out denying shit, and then like what that does. And he said no, of course he did, but he smashed me on the back, on the top of the head. Like, that is someone, he was the vice principal, it was full on. And so it's, um I mean, that's—

Joanne: see, I always believed Tommy. I always believed him. He never told lies, did you?

Tommy: No, no, no, no, no, no, because it wasn't— I wasn't getting— I wasn't going to the principal's office for, you know, teasing some kid or punching someone in the face. It was always just—

Joanne: you had a lot of friends—

Tommy: pushing the boundaries and fucking just being naughty.

Joanne: You were a popular boy.

Tommy: Yeah, thanks. I won't knock that one.

Joanne: So, you know, Kids have— other kids liked you.

Josh: Yeah, because I'd beat the fucking shit out of them.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How's the system going? Cash, cash.

Josh: No, it is interesting. I think like the teacher stuff is interesting because is it that like what is the responsibility of a teacher as well? Like they're huge.

Tommy: It's a big undertaking and that's why they have a lot of responsibility. And just, it's an undertaking of responsibility whether they like it or not.

Josh: But if you've got 24 kids, I guess the hard part is that it's the, what, if you've got 24 kids that you're looking after, there then becomes a prioritisation based on everyone needing to be sort of similar or sort of acting a certain way to be able, yeah.

Tommy: You want kids to conform because if you were to go, I could imagine if I if I was a teacher, how would you want your day to go? I'd want my day to go smoothly. I'd want my day to not have too many hiccups and little shits throwing shit around the room so I can be at peace. And that's a personal— like, you want your day to go nicely, as any job you do. I don't want too many hiccups. And so there's not much difference when you're a teacher.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so when someone is throwing a spanner in the works like me— and I was physically throwing spanners— no, but if you were it's, it's going to throw off what you wanted to be a nice day. And so then that requires a level of problem solving.

Josh: And they're probably not being their best self either in those situations.

Tommy: Yeah, someone who lies.

Joanne: And they have their issues.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Joanne: It's like as human beings, teachers have their own personal issues. Exactly. That is triggered by the behaviour of a child, or they come up against something.

Tommy: A kid who's been bullied who then becomes a teacher, then sees kids being bullied, what are they going to do? How would you feel? You wouldn't really have empathy for the bully because you understand. And maybe you would, but I think an initial reaction wouldn't be to have empathy because you see. And so this is, we're complex creatures and it's like looking at—

Josh: I think there was a lot, like for me, I remember like some of the bullies, like there was always a story. I found that every bully that I had had a story. One, his mum passed away when he was young and I felt like there was, and so I end up empathising with all of these people. But in reflection, I wonder about the empathy that's coming the other way as well. Like what's the—

Tommy: From who?

Josh: Well, I guess from that bully. So like, so I'm having to in that moment be empathising with them based on behaviour that's not great. And so I wonder when I'm taking that approach as a kid, then it feels like there is more of an opportunity. Rather than saying this is, uh, I'd be asking the teacher what they're doing, it would be, this seems like there can be more work on the other child as well to work out what, what it is. And it maybe it means a different style of schooling. Maybe it means that the conformity doesn't work. I think a lot of, there's probably a lot of kids that are on ADD medication based on not conforming or fitting in.

Tommy: Well, yeah, because I mean, that was something the teacher said I had.

Joanne: Yeah.

Tommy: And it's— and it's— I probably reckon— I probably think it's— there's some sensitivity. Have you checked? There'd be sensitivities now because it's like you just can't call someone— fuck it— you can't call someone an ADD. You know, like if a teacher said, oh, he's probably got AD, you know, like we're pretty progressive now, would be there's probably a way to direct it without being rude. But I get it. It's, um, I think, Josh, you're a different creature. It's why you hung out with teachers. It's most kids aren't being empathetic to a kid's situation. Like, for you to even consider this kid and his mum's story, it's like, that's fucking adult thinking.

Joanne: It's beautiful.

Tommy: It's amazing, right? And that's why I think you're so unique and And you've had a different pathway to most.

Josh: It's, um, yeah, I think it's like interesting to think of everyone, like we all have different, uh, versions of childhood and all that sort of thing. I guess that's why it's like, it's, I think it's also, it's almost like a religion. It's like, that's why people are so funny about how they bring up their kids because it is such a unique experience. And I just know that growing up it was 'I wish so-and-so would just discipline their kid.' You know, that type of thing.

Tommy: What does it even mean? Like, I mean, it's— you want your kid to conform, and so it's so— I think so. It's so hard.

Josh: I think like for the parents of the kids that are being bullied, it's like, what if they were trying everything under the sun?

Tommy: What if they were actually— if you just gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were actually disciplining their child and it just wasn't working?

Josh: Yeah, that's what I wonder. I mean, that's what the interesting thing is, isn't it? It's like, um, What's the answer? I don't know what the answer is. But I think personal responsibility. What is personal responsibility? There's the child, but are they old enough or mature enough to have a level of thinking about that?

Tommy: I mean, this is the problem, right? And then it all ends. Your friend kills himself. You know, that was my— one of my best friends did that, and he was a kid who misbehaved. He had his hardships growing up as a kid and family stuff, but at what point does it— at what point? How do you— we're trying to fix kids, right, by disciplining them. At what point is it just— I think I grew out of a lot of shit, and I— and I—

Josh: was it about fixing, or is about like— so say for instance, if it's the— if it's about— if it's the spirit and where— and Joanne, you mentioned like Tommy, sort of his spirit sometimes was mis— not misguided, but sort of, you know, misdirected. If it was misdirected, yeah, then it feels like misdirection implies that there's potentially some form of external force that is moving that across, whether it's peers or things like that. So then it feels like there is something that we can do to guide our kids' spirits.

Joanne: Well, you have to, but it's not just And this is harking back to the philosophy of yoga and the— it's not just all happened in this life, you know. Reincarnation teaches us that every life we have, every incarnation we have, we bring with us certain issues that we've had to deal with in other lives. Now, and it's not just us. It's not my body that's reincarnating. It is the soul. But it's terribly complex. But it is. It's all in that memory, in the memory there, the cellular memory that comes across from past lives and this life. Look, you could talk for all day about it. I can imagine teachers—

Josh: I can imagine teachers— there being a lot of teachers not resonating with, like, talking about reincarnation and stuff.

Joanne: I think it's something from his past life.

Tommy: Just let it go. I see Bodhi and I see his spirit, whatever you want to call it. He's had it from day one. He's little cheeky, like, you can see that in him, right? And there's this fire. And I look at my friends who are troublemakers, and there is something unique about all of them, and it's a restlessness. And I think, like, Karim my best friend, he— we went through a lot of tough times together, just those restless years of being a teen and doing bad shit and coming out the other side of it. And we look at each other like, fuck, man, we— it's so nice that we survived that because there's a lot of people that around me that killed themselves growing up. And it's like, I just know they were all unique. I can— every person that has, that has done that to themselves, they were unique individuals and they were bigger than what they thought. There was the spirit about them was unbelievable. And they would misbehave and treat people badly. But it's like, it's like they couldn't, they couldn't deal with it.

Josh: So what is the answer?

Joanne: Do you think there's no answer? Look, as coming back to being a parent, you have to remind yourself over and over again that it's their journey. You can guide them, you can teach them, but in the end, it's their journey. Journey in this lifetime that they're on.

Tommy: Well, we— I mean, that's the thing about—

Joanne: and things have to play out, and there's good and bad have to play out.

Josh: There's culture and community.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And so the, the fact that there was so many sort of, of those negative things to happen in that time, what do you think it— what, in reflection, what do you think it was? Why were people killing themselves? Why were— what, what do you think it was?

Tommy: I mean, I, yeah, I mean, mental health is one thing, but I think, I mean, it, it's that, I mean, I was there being restless and, and just the unknown of just, you know, it's a, it's a difficult journey to get through those teen years, you know, if you don't find something, if you don't You found something.

Joanne: You remember what the first thing you found?

Tommy: No, what was it?

Joanne: Kickboxing.

Tommy: Oh yeah, kickboxing.

Joanne: Your life changed from there on.

Josh: Really? Yeah.

Joanne: And I mean, I, I did a lot of praying, a lot of praying.

Tommy: Teachers have all tuned out at this point as well.

Joanne: I hope so. Yeah. And, um, when you pray, you don't pray 'Please God, make Tommy a good boy.' You pray, you open your heart to receive that, that, um, prayer that goes out, that divine grace guides him, that he wakes up, that whoever you're praying for, it's not our will, it's God's will, and they— that person that you're praying for needs grace to wake up. And you know, it worked.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, it didn't work for a bunch of your friends, I guess, in some way.

Joanne: Like, it may not have been prayed.

Tommy: Yeah, I mean, of course, no, but does it— it's irrelevant. Like, I think it Regardless of whether you believe praying for someone helps or not, there is a thoughtfulness in it. It's like you're putting it out into the universe or whatever you want to— however you want to look at it.

Joanne: Because if you continue to worry about that person and be concerned, you see, where there goes thought, there goes energy. Where your thoughts are, that is where your consciousness is. So if you choose to just go along and worry, worry, worry, worry, you could in a way attract the negativity that you're trying to, to not attract. So, so with what I say about prayer is that you put in a positive energy into the healing of the situation, no matter what it is.

Josh: Is it— is that as much about the, the action or things that you bring into the physical world after the prayer as it is Yes, yeah, everything, everything is integrated, everything in everything is interwoven in life.

Joanne: And you don't pray rote prayers either, you pray in the language of your heart. That's what, you know, it is.

Tommy: And people too, being in like even Conspiracy Jimmy, like I've got friends that I've been friends with forever, Rhys Mitchell, like, these are all people that when these hard stuff happened, we were together and we talked a lot. And, you know, we were young, smoking weed, talking about our thoughts. And like, it was bizarre. And I actually look at those times, probably as much as you hated those times, I think about what I'm into now and those conversations I still have with those people. We're talking about our thinking and what's happening and what— like, it's It was—

Joanne: well, you're all very philosophical.

Tommy: It was hyper thought, what we were into back then, which was, I think, lucky. Because if you're alone with people around you that aren't ever going to be chatting about these things, but you're thinking them, you need to get it out somehow.

Joanne: Yeah, well, see, that's grace. That I call— yeah, grace that you were with people that cared about you and that just were willing to listen and goes on. So if you consider your life being, um, a journey of, of, um, opening to grace in your life, just open to the grace because everyone is worthy of that grace. Everyone is worthy of it.

Josh: Is that part of maybe even Tommy's pushback before on people, certain people not being prayed for or whatever. Is that part of it, which is like, it is something that should be that universal thing that, you know, like things, bad things happen to really great people? And so how does, how does that fit within your faith or the thoughts on prayer?

Joanne: You just have to accept. Acceptance is another a wonderful tool of survival no matter what situation you're in. You, you don't want some things to happen, of course, but things happen. You know, people die, people have all sorts of things happen. And to survive all that, you need to have an attitude of acceptance. But where do you go with that acceptance? You know, that's where faith comes into it really enormously. Honestly, that you have somewhere to go with that. You have a place of refuge to go to, and it's in that place of refuge that healing can happen and grace comes to you.

Josh: What do you think of personal responsibility and personal discipline? What do you think about it?

Joanne: Oh, it's a necessity, absolute necessity. It's part of it. It's the yamas and niyamas. You can't expect— if you want to meditate, achieve some sort of experience of meditation and communion with the divine, you can't do that if you're going out and hurting people, physically, mentally, or emotionally. You can't— it just doesn't go with it, you know. You can't just change from being harmful in some way, or— and then thinking you're going to sit there and, and experience God in meditation. It just doesn't go. That's why, that's why the Eightfold Path is very important to know about.

Josh: How do you uncover those blind spots that we have?

Joanne: Blind spots?

Josh: Like if I guess, you know, I was at a cafe today and this guy was, it was Jerry's Cafe in Elwood.

Tommy: You're going to talk about the owner?

Josh: Yeah, Andrew, the owner.

Tommy: I used to PT him.

Josh: Really? He's a bit of a wanker. And I actually, I read the reviews. They're coming thick and fast. We literally went down the street to someone's house who were filming and they said, oh yeah, a lot of problems.

Tommy: I used to train him, and once he rocked up, he was wearing jeans, shirt, and literally just came to tell me he wasn't training. But he still paid me, so I was fine.

Josh: Anyway, I literally asked a couple of times actually. So I went to get a coffee. The reason why I call him the wanker is because I go up and he walk in and he straight away says, oh, uh, what would you like? And I was like, um, it was like we just sort of walked in, so it was all a bit like, okay. And so I said, oh, Mason, what did you want? I'm like, oh, one hot chocolate. And I was thinking of my almond flat white, and I'm like, almond milk, I wonder if they're gonna have almond milk. I say, and almond flat white. And then I went to say thanks, and then he was like, how about a please? And I was like, okay, here we go. Anyway, so I, like we said, I said, oh, and it was as I was saying thanks that he said 'How about please?' It's a bit weird. So I sat down, but then I just saw the interactions of everyone else who had gone into the shop.

Tommy: I mean, spot on.

Josh: He was literally saying that, yeah, there was two people waiting. He said, 'I was just on the phone to the accountant.' So it's all, yeah, so he was set off. But my point is that you've got people like that. Andrew probably doesn't know that he's a bit of a dickhead.

Tommy: Or he does.

Joanne: Well, you have to bless him. Just bless him. Don't let things like that disturb your peace.

Josh: Yeah, well, I think that's my next step.

Joanne: There's no need to. To, you know, sort of be reactive in that situation.

Josh: I mean, it's hard to have a podcast.

Joanne: Please, may I have my whatever it was? Yeah, I mean, it's hard because, you know, that will set them back more than a nasty—

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Oh yeah, sort of.

Tommy: Yeah, that is hard. Like, I know some stuff about him, just what he told me, but it's— but even just— no, I'm talking personal. Yeah, just what's happened and I got that vibe from him. And so how do you— how does— maybe he's not aware, or maybe he's aware. Maybe he hasn't taken the time to think about the person, how he's behaving, how he comes across.

Joanne: Introspection. This is another whole thing. Introspection, self, self, um, reflection. Reflection, very important. And people like that, they sort of probably never heard of that.

Josh: I think that's my point, is it's like, I guess, like the blind spots. He's living his life and he's having such a—

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I guess that's part of it, which is just like, uh, it's— I guess it's disappointing when you like, you see, because you can see how that— I guess the, the next step is getting to a point where that doesn't affect your day. But even Mr. 97, you were affected by it, weren't you?

Mason: Yeah, it did trigger— I mean, it was more just like Everything that he was doing was outrageous. It was just triggering.

Tommy: But I mean, like, avoid him at all costs.

Joanne: Poor thing.

Tommy: I know.

Joanne: I mean, really, if I didn't let that bad thing in. He's suffering.

Josh: That guy is suffering. Yeah, but then he's translating that suffering.

Joanne: Well, you only pick it up if you allow it.

Tommy: If we're as reactive as the people that are around us, it's going to be a shit fight.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So if we were to be triggered by everybody else's bullshit— yeah, yeah, hard to live in this world. And maybe that's what he is, right? He's thinking, you look at him fucking being slow with his order, you know, he's ready, he's triggered, right? And then he got you.

Josh: Well, I think part of it is he got you based on like not expecting— I guess that's part of it. It's like, oh, there's an— and I think in the world we're interacting with people less and less, like we— there's less and less social interaction going on. And maybe that's because we don't— yeah, I think like in regards to personal face-to-face, we go on it, we get our Uber Eats, we don't like— and so I guess part of it is it's like, uh, it's easier to not have the interaction than it is to the self-reflection of dealing with someone else's shit. It's interesting.

Tommy: You create the one-on-one and you work on your own backyard because that's what he needs to do.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: It's like what I've done. I've been working on my own backyard. Um, last thing, Mum. Yes, fire. I spent a lot of time as a kid with my hand in a bucket.

Joanne: Yep.

Tommy: You could say you could discipline me to not pick up a match.

Joanne: A nice tight container of water and a bed.

Tommy: Oh, what do I— can't really— I just remember I love, like, I just like it. I mean, I just like playing with some fucking fire and shit. I've always loved fires, building fires, did it out in the backyard. I'm so lucky I had that upbringing, you know, to be able to have a fire in a house in Brighton in the backyard that was big enough. Now kids are growing up in apartments. But my point being, what do you remember? What, what it was about why I loved fire?

Joanne: What?

Tommy: Like I was always burning myself. Always.

Joanne: Yeah, well, that was, that was a byproduct. I mean, most kids enjoy fire. Mikey was a fire boy too. And, and, but—

Tommy: Josh, you enjoy fire?

Josh: Yeah, fireworks. Yeah, it's great.

Joanne: Fire.

Tommy: Primitive.

Joanne: Fire is almost symbolic, you know, to have a fire in your belly, you do stuff.

Tommy: And fires fended off big animals, you know, years ago. And being around a fire is a sense of community.

Joanne: I love fire. You know, there's another saying in yoga, tapas. You, not tapas, tapas. You, that's fire that burns all your um, um, all the impurities of your character and, and behavior. That's a, you know, another symbolic thing of fire. It's very important.

Josh: But he did some naughty shit with fire.

Tommy: Remember when the kid burnt down the playground across the road with the tires?

Joanne: Yeah. Who was that?

Tommy: It's Michael. RIP. Oh, he's not with us anymore. Yeah, there you go. Oh, I mean, I've been doing this since I was about 2.

Josh: I've currently got a lighter.

Joanne: Oh, you put the gas in there and it doesn't really do anything.

Josh: Before we go, you're an author.

Tommy: Yeah, Mum's got a book on the table.

Josh: Tell us about the book. It's called Peaceful Living with Prayer and Meditation, Joanne Jackett.

Joanne: That's right. Well, these prayers just came out of my own meditation. And my own. If you read it, you will know more about me because, um, you know, in times of, of, uh, challenge, I turn to, to talking to God.

Josh: And is Tommy mentioned in the book?

Tommy: At the back I've got my name in there, don't I?

Joanne: Yeah, you— it's dedicated, but there's no specific prayer dedicated to that little shit that causes trouble in there. So So it's, oh, and along with the prayers, see, the main objective of the book was to use prayer as a stepping stone towards stilling the mind and body for meditation. So with every prayer, there's an instruction as to how to breathe and just to calm and use the prayers, use the words in the prayer to just calm down and just sit there still and have a little bit of time out.

Josh: Do you have a favourite one that you could read us on our— to end the show?

Joanne: Well, I think one that I can read that's impersonal and universal.

Tommy: We won't let Mr. 97 read it, that's for sure.

Joanne: Would you like me to read it?

Josh: Yes, please.

Tommy: Yeah, this is an Audible original.

Josh: What page?

Joanne: It's, um, on page 4.

Tommy: This is a The Daily Talk Show original, spoken and written by Joanne Jackett.

Joanne: Do you want the, um, instructions first?

Josh: Um, sure, I'll read the heading for you.

Joanne: Okay.

Josh: A Prayer for Our Planet Earth.

Tommy: Right, this is very trendy. Okay, right now.

Joanne: Yeah, do you want the relax and be still bit?

Josh: Yeah, even—

Joanne: yeah, okay. Relax and be still as you feel this prayer coming from the heart. Say these words not with a sense of worry or anger or frustration, but rather with a sense of trust and belief. Feel that the love for our planet Earth and all sentient beings is placed in God's care, and that we as humankind will respond to what is required of us to make our world and the planet a better place. And so the prayer: My prayer is for our planet Earth. I pray that all humankind become aware of the need to appreciate what we have and not to keep wanting what we do not need. I pray that we see the beauty in the world that is here for us, and to know that this world, this precious world, needs our love, care, and nurturing, just like us as individual human beings. Help us to open our eyes and see with compassion and love what needs to be done, and guide our reason thought, will, and action always towards the highest and the best for our planet and all sentient beings. Thank you. Amen.

Tommy: Wake up, Mason.

Josh: Beautiful.

Tommy: Thanks, Mama.

Joanne: My pleasure. Thank you.

Josh: Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show, and thank you for the, uh, for the sticks.

Tommy: Oh yeah, can we keep this bag here? Yeah, she's trying to just declutter. She watched Marie Kondo last night. Trying to get rid of a few things around the house.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com is the email address. Did you have any final words, anything you wanted to say?

Tommy: No. Mason has something to say.

Mason: I thought I'd just say that, um, your new haircut looks great.

Joanne: Yeah, thank you. Right, I'll just take off.

Josh: Perfect.

Tommy: Stop coming on to my mom.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. We'll see you tomorrow, guys.

Joanne: See you later.