Pivots and Purpose With Andrea Clarke

Andrea: The Daily Talk Show.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 348.

Tommy: And in the middle, Andrea Clarke. Welcome.

Andrea: What's up?

Tommy: What's happening?

Andrea: Everything.

Josh: We're basically Instagram friends.

Andrea: Love it.

Tommy: Well, we, um, I actually saw Andrea, you speak at the FEW Business— what would you call that?

Andrea: Financial Executive Women.

Tommy: I knew it had an acronym, but I couldn't nail it. But I saw you deliver a keynote in Brisbane, and it was Very captivating.

Andrea: Was it?

Tommy: The room? Yeah, the women loved it. And I was one of the only men in the room.

Andrea: I'm so glad you said that because I was feeling doughnuts when I was up there. Really? Nothing. Some audiences give you nothing and that was tough because the room was weirdly set up if you remember. It was like, you know, it was like 180 degrees and as a speaker, that's disconcerting because you can't keep an eye on the time and you can't kind of engage with the audience properly.

Tommy: So it was a room full of accountants or lawyers?

Andrea: Just a room full of highly excitable people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: What I loved was it kind of blew me away because in your book Future Fit, the first chapter you go into your time that you spent in places like Iraq, which is crazy. I thought we were on the front line here in Abbotsford.

Josh: You were really on the front line.

Tommy: I love that your book, you blend these personal storeys with these sort of practical take-homes on what it's like for the future of work, which hence the name Future Fit.

Andrea: It sounds like you've read at least the first chapter, which I'm really impressed with.

Josh: As two gronks who are pretty bad at reading, we were surprised we got through half in a bit over a day. Yeah.

Tommy: And that's some fast reading for the both of us.

Josh: Even my girlfriend Bree was shocked to see me. I had my pencil out and I was reading it and it was like, yeah.

Andrea: It's a thing. People are highlighting, underlining, taking notes and, you know, the highlighter's back, people.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: And so what I loved is just hearing that you lived and worked in DC and All I know of DC is from what I've seen in House of Cards and Jason Bourne when he visits.

Andrea: It's really similar. It's totally similar. Yeah.

Josh: We can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Andrea: I am a little bit. But I love watching the opening credits, especially to House of Cards, because I know all of those places. And it's really bizarre to watch a show that is so captivating And you know where they're shooting.

Josh: It's bizarre.

Tommy: Well, Capitol Hill, little suburb right next to the White House. Is that where you lived?

Andrea: Yeah, I was 13th and N, so I was only about, you know, 5 blocks from the White House. So I would literally, you know, I'll never forget, I was on the top floor of a building and I would wake up in the morning and Marine One would just be cruising past, you know, with the backup Marine Two and Three in case Marine One got shot down. So, and you never knew which one the president was in.

Tommy: So who was the president at that time?

Andrea: Obama. Okay. Yeah. So I was in there from the Bush to Obama years. And but there was always so much happening in that particular quadrant. I was in the northwest quadrant of D.C. and, and that was, that was where the action was. So whenever there was an evacuation on Capitol Hill or a bomb threat, you would know about it because it's literally next door.

Josh: You made the transition from being a journo to sort of more communications style stuff. How do journalists or fellow, fellow colleagues see that type of career transition?

Andrea: That's a great question, and I'm still trying to figure it out. I don't know if no one is telling me because they think that I should have stayed, you know, in my, you know, in my job. But the transition for me has been so much more rewarding than I thought it would be. I've always loved to tell the backstory. I love the story. I love connecting with people and having them share their storeys in a way that's compelling for the audience, obviously. So for me, moving from journalism into comms It's the same rules apply. It's the same theme. I'm still telling storeys and helping people tell the best version of their storeys to connect with their audiences. It's simply a different context. So, but the theme is still the same. And that's been a theme that's been continuous through my career.

Tommy: I've had some interesting avenues in my career, which we don't need to get into, but—

Josh: Oh really? Are you sure? Well, you've gone from stripping to PT.

Tommy: No, I went from PT to stripping.

Josh: Fuck, you did it that way.

Andrea: To radio to now hanging out with you gronks.

Tommy: I always think about like, I remember when I was a stripper, I was like, how do you—

Andrea: You really were a stripper?

Tommy: I was.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I was like on a big stage show, travelled around New Zealand. It's not that commendable really. I mean, your career is much more commendable than mine.

Andrea: I'm sure that you have a level of executive presence after testing it out with the girls.

Tommy: I learned a lot about the world when I was 19. But I think about, you know, In your book, you're talking about being in a plane coming down to land in—

Andrea: First chapter.

Tommy: Yeah, I got past the first chapter.

Andrea: I'm so impressed with you guys.

Tommy: It's captivating. You're coming down into this war zone and you're nosediving. But I was thinking, you did mention kind of what you were thinking at that moment, but I think about people over in those areas doing jobs like you and I think about what's the story, like how do you look at what you're doing going, How have I ended up here?

Andrea: Like, oh, for sure, every day.

Tommy: What are the steps? And what are the steps to end up there?

Andrea: Specifically the morning that I was on that UN charter flight out of Amman, and I flew into Amman from DC and had the night there before I was getting on the plane. And it was the weirdest feeling because the night before in the hotel, I was on my own. And I was thinking, well, I don't know, what do you do the night before you're going into Baghdad? I guess, you know, do I write some notes in case something goes wrong? I made sure that someone had a decent headshot of me in case, you know, I was going to be a headline. Missing or something. Please just don't use a shit photo of me.

Josh: Media tend to though, they find the oldest one on file. I don't know how that sort of happened.

Andrea: I'm the person who used to do that. So I'm across it. So I was in the hotel room the night before thinking, well, I guess I'm just going to hope for the best. And when you, I think when you commit to a job like that, it's important to be really at peace with what you're doing in a way and be convinced that that you're doing it for the right reasons. Otherwise you couldn't do it. But it was interesting that morning, I went out to the airport and got on the plane and I was like, where's everyone else? And they were like, you're the only passenger. I'm like, I'm the only passenger on this charter flight into Baghdad. It's already, I already have, you know, my mind was already going fairly crazy with that because it just was weird. It was just weird silence on there. On my own thinking, yeah, how did I get here? Like, what were the steps?

Josh: How do you pack for something like that? What do you bring?

Andrea: Look, packing is a sport as far as I'm concerned. I excel at packing and I was carrying a pretty small bag. So, it was just basics because apparently the flak jacket was gonna be supplied to me on landing. Yeah. So, that was the extra stuff. But yeah, I had those moments a lot and still do. How did I get here? And it's a nonlinear path, but I guess part of it is, I mean, I knew I wanted to get out of journalism. I had a fairly strong experience on the way to work in DC one morning. I was walking past a newsstand going into the Al Jazeera bureau, Al Jazeera English bureau where I was working at the time. And I didn't pick up a newspaper. I didn't pick up the New York Times for the first time like ever. I looked at it on my phone and I thought, I literally stopped and thought, If I'm a working reporter and I'm looking at the times on my phone, what does that mean for everyone else? And what does it mean for the industry? And that was literally the day where I walked into the newsroom and started looking for another job. And I'd always been fascinated and felt obligated to contribute to human rights in some way. And so literally a month later, I found myself, I was fortunately poached out of that by an amazing mentor of mine, Rick Santos. And he got me into a major aid group and a month later, I was packing a bag for Baghdad. So it was all very real. And you can't— once you're on that train, you can't stop it. And I wanted— I actually, I did a master's in international security studies and defence studies because I wanted to be a war reporter. But coming through the Gulf War, watching the first and then second Gulf War, it was obvious that, you know, when you're embedded, there's a certain amount of propaganda that goes along with that. So I felt I couldn't— I wasn't going to pursue it as, as a standalone career because you know that you can only contribute so much when you're when your day is being governed by the military. So I was not unhappy at all about going into that situation as an aid worker because at that point in my life, I felt like I could contribute more to what was going on.

Josh: Is there a sense of helplessness when you are writing about these big world issues? Because I feel like with even thinking about climate change and all these big things, I'm sort of like, I have two thoughts, which is like, oh, I'm going to change my light bulb and buy a KeepCup. And then The other side is it's like, so we're gonna be fucked by something. And so I'm just gonna sort of like not stress about it.

Andrea: And it's gonna hurt.

Josh: Yeah. And where do you fit on the spectrum of hope?

Andrea: I'm really optimistic about the future. I like to think that human beings are going to be a lot more proactive about saving this planet. And as someone who has seen abject poverty and been deeply affected by it, they are, that is the demographic that's got to be impacted first. And, you know, I think that, I think we're going to see a swing back towards people giving more of a shit because this climate emergency is real. I do think that, that there is going to be an awakening to some degree on that. And I think that, you know, there will be incremental action that will lead to, you know, a far greater movement because we have that urgency that I think is hitting us in ways that hasn't necessarily hit us before.

Tommy: Your business career, CEO, you're helping people be the CEOs of their own career. Have you felt throughout your career that you've had control of it?

Andrea: I've had absolutely no fucking idea, like what I've been doing most of the time, to be honest with you. Look, I got sacked from that job when I was in Iraq. I basically, and this is all on the record in the Washington Post, but I flagged a fairly major misappropriation of funds at the time. And so I got walked from that job without knowing at the time that's what it was about. And so that was the whole catalyst to me thinking, okay, well, how can I future-proof myself? How can I make sure that I can always stay in business as an individual? What does that mean in terms of my skill set? What's missing? How do I modify that? And then how can I empower others? How can I create a business that essentially empowers others to always be in control of their career and never feel that level of vulnerability of being involved in a restructure that doesn't shake out really well for them?

Josh: Yeah, I heard a phrase I feel like has only really come into fashion the last couple of years, which is the 'you should stay in your own lane.' I guess like your— that storey that you talk about, um, it speaks of like sort of the suppression of only staying in your own lane, doing your job, sort of not identifying the things around you that you might not agree with. The learning that you went through with being sacked, you know, send— sending the email, doing all that sort of stuff, what did you actually take away from that experience?

Andrea: That the standard you walk past really is a standard that you accept in your life, regardless of what part of your life that is. And in reflection, I'm really, I'm totally, I'm okay with taking that action. It wasn't, our job was to save lives. It was life and death on the other end of, you know, the recipients of the funding of microfinance grants or food security or, you know, emergency measures that they, All of that mattered. It mattered a lot more than a major organisation sending their staff to 6-star retreats to like talk about team building.

Tommy: As fun as they are.

Andrea: I know. Yeah. I wasn't okay with that. I didn't think there was any way to run an organization, specifically a nonprofit that was being funded by the American taxpayer who at the time were wondering what we were doing in Iraq, as well as not even having fixed New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. You know, we had an extra level of compliance, I felt, around the responsibility to spend US taxpayers' money and to spend it in the right way.

Tommy: And you really— you painted the picture in the book, seeing millions and millions of dollars in cash.

Andrea: Yeah, wall to wall.

Tommy: What was that experience like?

Andrea: Look, as a reporter, I've walked into drug busts where I've seen piles of cash.

Josh: And that's just on Victoria Street coming into—

Andrea: Yeah. So, you know, as a reporter, you're thrown into these extraordinary situations. You're often meeting people on the best or worst days of their life. But I distinctly connected that with an experience I had, chopper, you know, being in a chopper, going out to somewhere, walking in, meeting detectives and seeing just like just bags of cash along the wall. So when I walked in, that wasn't the first time I'd seen it, but not at that scale. It was literally piled to the ceiling. And I remember thinking, it's just got to be tens and tens of millions of dollars. And where's the security around this? So all a bit loose, if you know what I mean.

Josh: And so you sent an email writing out the concerns that you had, what was the thought process of clicking send? And did you unders— understand what that would potentially lead to?

Andrea: I had no hesitation in sending the email because it was to what I— it was to my boss, uh, not realizing— a bit naive at that time— not realising that my email was probably being monitored by other people in the, in the organization. But the email was essentially around, you know, the core of the email was around concern about what we were spending at you know, at staff retreats. It was more about the overall spending policy. Yeah.

Tommy: Is it a treat? Like, the people enjoying these, you know, this money being spent on them? Like, I mean, everyone is contributing to the problem at that point, right?

Andrea: And so at this particular context, it was an all-staff retreat where we were all bussed away to this, you know, the 6-star resort in Pennsylvania. And I didn't want to go because I didn't want— I didn't wanna spend 2 or 3 straight days with my colleagues.

Josh: And you got free iPods, didn't you?

Andrea: We got free iPods, yeah.

Josh: And that would have been like 2008 or something.

Andrea: Yeah, it was, and they were a big deal.

Josh: Yeah, 2008, I think the iPod video was just sort of coming into it. Not to make it too much on that.

Andrea: It was an exclusive thing. So, you know, the number, 2 concerns I had. Number 1, the cost of this particular resort because it was, you know, $300 or $400 a room per person, 300 staff. So for me, that was fairly reckless spending. And I didn't know what the rules were in terms of, You know, when you won a tender, you had a certain amount for staff, you know, whatever. But I just didn't, it just felt wrong. Everything about it felt excessive and certainly decadent in the environment that we're in. So that was my email. It was really about that. And it was quite specific in, you know, in how I felt that could absolutely lead to a reputational crisis for the business, which it did.

Josh: And then you look at 2019 and what's happened with the banks here in Australia.

Andrea: It's all about trust.

Josh: You know, what do you see as like, say, as an external provider, provider. I've worked with not-for-profits before, and you see moments of like, guys, you're not doing this the right way. There's real inefficiencies. And sometimes you're at the— that rewards you based on financially, because it's like, I wouldn't be doing it this way, I'd do it this way. But there's a bunch of— they've got a bunch of processes in the way they do it. What do you think we have as, uh, for our clients to be able to communicate in those moments of like, hey guys, these internal processes aren't great?

Andrea: It's not about what we could do It's about what we should do. What should we be doing? How should we be doing business? I think everyone should be asking that question. And if anyone is in a situation where they can see something is not going right, and this came up at a conference yesterday, you know, if you're, you know, the question is, how can we charge dead people for superannuation fees? It should be, what should we be doing in this situation that is not going to lead to, you just, it's all about doing the right thing. It's so simple, but we get so, You know, we get caught in this web of compliance and governance and hierarchy. And I think that we all have a responsibility to be bold and to lead through that in a way that is, you know, authentic to the purpose of our own work and authentic to, you know, the intention of the business across the wider community. It's really simple. Just do the right thing.

Tommy: When you were in DC, you were covering what happened at Virginia Tech. And my wife and I were reading in bed last night and she was amazed at the ability of a reporter being able to sort of shift or hold those emotions, which we all feel. You're a monster if you don't feel emotions when you go to a tragic event. But I know as being someone who's worked on the radio and reporting on things, you kind of, your sensitivity, you need to put it down to deliver what you need to. Have you found that you have, that you've been, you've carried over that ability to sort of shut aside the sensitivity? Or do you need to work on that? As someone who spent a lot of time reporting, are you now, you know, feeling that muscle that you've trained to go, I'm in this, it's all about, you know, facts and working out what's happening?

Andrea: I think that most reporters would say anytime you work, you walk into a trauma or into a tragedy, you absolutely have to in the moment put your feelings in a box and just because the focus is to get the storey and not in an insincere way. But when I was covering the Virginia Tech shooting, I really felt like that for me was a turning point. I didn't feel like it was respectful of people that I was interviewing because it was such a parachute in, get what I needed and then get out. And that was my job. But that was the moment where I felt I'm not really sure if this is right for me. It's clashing with my personal values and ethics about the general respect level I should have for people in any context. So, but nevertheless, it was my job to interview people and do a live cross until Mike Amor turned up, who was a bureau chief at Channel 7 at the time based in Los Angeles. But I have always felt found a way to process. I've always processed. There's plenty of downtime you have as a reporter. You have, you know, have these short bursts of extraordinary activity and really intense activity, but then you'll find yourself on a stakeout for 24 hours waiting for Shane Warne and Liz Hurley or something, you know, really compelling like that.

Josh: Um, or it does sound appealing. Like, I do resonate with a bunch of what you're saying. Everything, any sort, anything that's sort of a stakeout, or like, there was a time where I was seriously stalking guys. Considering when you've got a news camera, it's not stalking.

Andrea: Yeah.

Josh: Exactly.

Andrea: But there's plenty of opportunity to process emotion and certainly flying, there's something that altitude does, I think, to many of us. But, you know, I have had plenty of moments. And after that trip from Iraq, I went to Tbilisi in Georgia. That was August 2008, which was the same week the Russians were invading. So things were still on fire when we got there. It was really serious. And we went to an orphanage that was full of mentally and physically disabled kids. And that was— It was pure heartbreak. There's no other way to describe it. And I walked out of that orphanage and my phone rang and it was my boss saying, "Can you get on a plane and go to Kabul? We need you to go to Afghanistan." And I said, I've never ever turned down an assignment in my life. And I said, "Rick, I'm getting on a plane. I'm going back to Washington and I don't want to speak to anyone for 10 days." And plenty of downtime, plenty of process crying. I call it, there's the ugly cry and then there's the process cry. Cry. Yeah, the process cries when you're processing whatever's gone on. And I've had plenty of those days because, you know, I've needed to through this career. And I'm sure other reporters have their own outlet. But when you soften in moments that are where you have real silence, it just— it appears. And you can't fight it because if you fight it, it's going to manifest in a much more destructive way.

Tommy: Was it like opening the door when you— Virginia Tech, that first real realisation internally that it's clashing with your values.

Andrea: Totally.

Tommy: Is it like you can't go back? Each one then moving forward is same feelings coming up.

Andrea: You just lose a certain, you just lose ignition for the story. When you land on a site, you know, it's in this supercharged mode where, and in that case I had, you know, I had to get there, grab soundbites and file back. But then I had to go back to drop stuff to the hotel, came back. And at that time I had 90 seconds, probably less than probably 60 seconds stepping out of the car, stepping in front of the camera and going live to Ian Ross in Sydney. And that was really— I was really stressed out.

Josh: I was—

Andrea: it was serious high anxiety for me because it was blowing 40 knots, the lights were smashing over. It was a totally chaotic environment. And I'd never seen a sea of live trucks. There was a bigger storey in the US at the time. At the time, the, you know, unfortunately the largest the largest shooting, number of people dead at the time. So, you know, turn up to this sea of live-eye trucks in total chaos and you have to make it work. And that was, you know, that was not— that was the moment where I thought, I'm talking to people who are in medical shock and that is not the right thing to do, just as one human being to another. So what can I do perhaps on the other side of the camera that's going to be more fulfilling for myself and and more helpful to the people on the ground, because that's what was happening— people walking around in medical shock.

Josh: How do you stop trivialising those types of situations? So say when you're in a war zone and you have the support of security and you've got your, you know, bulletproof flak jacket on, you've got all of those, the helmet, all those sorts of things, uh, how do you reconcile that, that whilst you're entering these areas, these places where people are living and experiencing and, and don't have the luxury of that sort of support.

Andrea: By meeting as many people as, as you can, I certainly made that my business to meet as many locals who were either locally engaged by the group or were living inside the compound, because we're in a compound that stretched across about 4 city blocks. It was surrounded by 300 locally engaged Iraqi guards along the perimeter.. And we had Shia militia launching RPGs from the back fence, which literally was like 20 feet from my room. So it was really, really intense. There was no sleep. You couldn't get any sleep at all. And so in a state of really high adrenaline constantly. But my— I really felt the situation for me was calmed considerably by meeting and talking to local Iraqis and hearing their storeys and what brought them back to Baghdad to restart their business. And, you know, how their families were and what their hopes were for the future.

Tommy: So you've done quite a rebrand. As I said, we're on the front line here in Abbotsford.

Andrea: Oh yeah.

Tommy: But you, I guess it's like I look at sort of, I love the bit where you talk about rebrands because we love a rebrand here at the Only Toymachines.

Andrea: What do you love about a rebrand?

Josh: Well, I've done a few in my life. I used to be 120 kilos, used to wear snapbacks and all that sort of thing, and then sort of changed my glasses and did a few other things. But yeah, I enjoy the process of having a Pinterest board and like, okay, I've I've actually got a few different versions of where I've done it, but there's the vision, there's the visual, there is the visual, uh, Ray Brand. Yeah, but then there's also the other bits too, which is how you, how you speak, how you, uh, interact with people. In your book, you talk about, uh, you know, this sort of, uh, leaning to apologizing, you know, saying sorry in a conversation or things like that. How much of that is ingrained in you? And it's like I won't fucking say sorry when I don't feel that way versus something that has been taught over realising that in these situations, like, oh, I'm doing this.

Andrea: You mean me personally?

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: Well, I think that communicating with authority is something that I've learned and reporting has been such a huge part of that. So, you know, the reason for starting the business essentially was that I was obviously an on-camera reporter, no problem communicating directly to the audience. When I stepped off camera, I couldn't hold have a powerful conversation with my boss, couldn't ask for a pay rise, couldn't make any legitimate complaints, couldn't communicate anything with impact. And I felt that started isolating me pretty quickly. So I ended up essentially leaving Channel 7, pretty unhappy about it because I felt like I was bullied out over the course of 18 months. I don't have any problem talking about that, but not going too far into it because for me what was most important was the response. So that was part of the process of me creating a programme that helped everyone else around me communicate with authority. And that means understanding how we unconsciously undermine our authority through our use of language, our body language, how we structure our content, and certainly how we use our voice as well. So that for me, it was interesting that I had no problem communicating with authority while I was on camera, but in every other context, I would play small, I'd play myself down, and I would lose out of that situation.

Tommy: What do you think it was?

Andrea: I was in an environment that wasn't supportive, that wasn't inclusive, that didn't encourage my development in any way. And, you know, news is an extreme— I love it. It's such a dynamic environment. The team, you know, that I will never again feel what I did working in a news team. You know, that it's a powerful— being in a highly effective news team news team is a really addictive thing. That's why it took me so long to leave. And it's a very, very powerful way to hone problem-solving skills, all kinds of skills at the same time. But, you know, broadly stepping back, I wasn't necessarily in an environment that supported my development. So that, that lead, that led me, I didn't even know what culture was. The word culture, I didn't, I hadn't heard that until about 2014. So I was a bit of a late adopter to that only because it culture wasn't something that was valued as a core pillar of a business in a news operation. So that led me to pulling together a programme that I felt could empower other people because when you're disempowered by not having a voice, that leads to so many other issues.

Tommy: I think the visual rebrand is one you can do overnight.

Andrea: Yeah. The internal rebranding takes a lot longer.

Tommy: It's hard. And I know you talked about your core values, your purpose, like living in alignment with those, which I've heard a lot in my life. I think I'm now closer to living in the alignment with my purpose and my values, and it makes you feel good. What do you think if you had someone come to you and say, I need a rebrand, Andrew, please help? How long is that process of changing the internal?

Josh: And what does that even mean?

Andrea: I think we're constantly a work in progress, and I like to think of it as a purpose-led pivot.

Josh: Purpose-led pivot, I like that. I do have personalrebranding.com, but I will get that too. Purpose-led pivot.

Tommy: Mr.

Andrea: 97, can you grab If you were paying attention in chapter 1, it's there.

Josh: No, good pickup.

Andrea: So, I'll underline it. So that's really about, you know, what gives meaning to you. And what I love about the future of work is that I genuinely think it's an opportunity for us all to be more connected to ourselves, to the work that we do, and to our ability to deliver more meaningful work. So, So if anyone came to me wanting a rebrand, I would lead with, well, what do you feel gives you meaning in the workplace? And what is that? What are the tasks? What are involved in those tasks? Is it talking to people? You know, is it, is it data entry? What do you love about that? You know, you've got to really dig. You've got to dig deep. Yeah. But I think we're constantly a work in progress, which is a fantastic thing for all of us.

Josh: What about having multiple personas? And the idea of having a persona for work and a persona for personal life. Should we be mates with our colleagues?

Andrea: I don't think there's any difference. I don't think there's— I don't make any distinction between work and personal because there's no work-life balance. It's just life balance. And I don't know if— I think it's difficult to not be mates with people that you work with. I think if you bring a wall down, that it's not going to allow you to connect with people around you and really get the best out of your team if you're leading a team. So I think you've got to be You've got to be your authentic self everywhere, 24/7. And if you're trying to be anything but, that will be a brand issue for you.

Tommy: I mean, the hard thing is if you're working with people that you don't, you're not inspired by, not saying you guys.

Josh: It sounds a bit like a retro. That's okay.

Tommy: You morph into the people that you hang around.

Andrea: Well, I think that we are absolutely, there's some value with the 5 people we spend the most time with. And that's why I love being surrounded by, you know, the fabulous Belinda Wall, who's my Chief of Staff and Oversight Committee, and Jen Adams, who's the most, you know, Fantastic facilitator. So we, you know, and that's a process in itself because you've got to find your tribe, you've got to stick to the tribe. And when people aren't, and when you feel like people aren't, you know, sort of gelling with you, then it's okay. It's okay to let people go with love. That's fine. Because we have to do that at different stages of our career. But it's so important to spend time with people who do inspire and motivate and encourage you and want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Tommy: The movement of picking yourself is very ripe. Seth Godin, I guess we're in the school of—

Andrea: Love Seth.

Tommy: Picking ourselves. Something, and I've always kind of, I guess I've pushed back on those jobs where I'm working for someone. I've had my own business for many years, which has given me the sense of paving my own path. My future is in my hands and I felt disempowered working in corporate structures where, you know, I can't do much. But something in your book that you you mentioned was building that board team, that, um, was it the, the board of directors? The board of directors, which, uh, you know, the people around that you could sort of call upon should something go pear-shaped.

Andrea: Definitely. And you probably had that structure already without really having formalised it or, you know, given it a label. But what I think is really interesting about the next 10 years is that the responsibility for finding, securing, and delivering work will is shifting to the individual in ways that we haven't seen before. So regardless of whether you're in a big organisation and part of a machine or you're working on your own, it's up to you to make it work for you. And that involves absolutely having sponsors, mentors, advisors, people who are on, you know, on your team, part of your crew who will give you unfiltered advice and encouragement and be able to talk through any issue that's important to you.

Tommy: I see it as sort of taking that power back back in an environment where you are being picked, but you're also picking yourself to know that if stuff goes wrong, or, you know, I can call on somebody, we can send the troops out to get a new job, which is what you did.

Andrea: Yeah, look, we all need that support network, and I was so fortunate when I lost my job in Washington to be surrounded by a group of really intensely diligent and, and, and, you know, powerful women. And I picked up the phone and I said, hey guys, uh, this is not a call I ever really expected to make, but I am in real trouble. I really need your help and I hope I never have to ask for it again. So, and when you have built sincere relationships and friendships over a period of time, people wanna help, people love to help. If someone called you and said, I need help, what are you gonna do if you really respect them? Of course you're gonna pick up the phone and make calls or whatever you need to do. So it was, you know, that was a moment that I felt, you know, my having a network and a deep network really paid off. And it wasn't, and there's nothing insincere about calling people asking for help when you need it, you know, and you need to have the right people on your team.

Tommy: I mean, it's scary sometimes asking for help.

Andrea: Oh, I think it was, I mean, that was certainly a moment where I felt extremely vulnerable. I was in a foreign country with a visa that was tied to my employment. So I had the added, pressure of having 10 business days to find another role. Otherwise I had to leave the country.

Tommy: They mean they kick you out?

Andrea: Yeah, or you have to self, you have to self-manage way out of the country, but you can't overstay a visa. So because it impacts your ability to work and apply for a green card and everything else. So I, you know, it was a high pressure. I, you know, I said in the book, I literally, I just cried all night and then I woke up in the morning and said, how am I going to, how am I going to handle it? Got to handle it.

Josh: How did you deal with mourning the loss of that role and how long did it take you?

Andrea: I was gutted because it was such a great role. Dream gig and I loved it. I love the team, love my cameraman and love the context. Loved also being able to help people and expose a much broader audience to the issues that we were covering. So we were raising, you know, tens of millions of dollars for people who needed emergency aid on the ground. And that felt useful and that felt like I was contributing. So for me, that was the loss that I— beyond it being a great role, the main part of the role was helping, was connecting people on the ground to people in really, really high levels of office that could write cheques for $200 million. So the impact that I lost there was, I grieved for months. Yeah. And I moved into another really intense role with the Save Darfur Coalition. So my job was to help lobby the US government to stop the genocide in Sudan. Yeah. So it was sort of one trauma to another almost, but at least I still felt like we were contributing and we did get that done. We had a UN, we had a US special envoy appointed to to Sudan at the UN General Assembly. So, you know, you want to— I just felt like I'm still contributing.

Tommy: What happens when you get home? Like, it's all quite— it's a bit much. I couldn't handle it.

Josh: It's full on.

Andrea: I mean, it's a really— it's a very different environment. And I remember often coming home for Christmases, you know, coming home and my sisters, I'd be like, so what, you know, what did you guys get up to this week? And they'd be like, something really, you know, small happened. And And I'd sit there thinking, wow, I'm really, you know, I love, I just love the realness of that because, you know, maybe the toughest point of my week was looking through, you know, UN reports on, you know, on genocide or something. And like photographs of when the first people who came through the villages were burnt down. And, you know, you see it all in its total trauma or, you know, walking down the Senate Hart Building and seeing Ted Kennedy or something extraordinary.

Tommy: So what happened when you got home? Were you when you actually moved back to Australia and lived a nice quiet life?

Andrea: Oh, it was really difficult.

Josh: Do you keep perspective? Like, do you still, like if your Uber Eats order's cold, like do you think about all the bad stuff in the world and be like, actually shit's not that bad?

Andrea: Oh, you always have to remind yourself that someone has it worse off. And, but I had a really difficult transition. I mean, I'm not gonna bullshit you. It was really, really difficult. I came back the first, 4 years at least, I was thinking, you know, maybe I should turn around and go back. I felt really isolated and I felt like I couldn't really, you know, connect with anyone on a level that was important to me. I was going into the newsroom at Channel 7 doing storeys and, you know, they were pretty light storeys compared to what I was covering. And, you know, there's no judgement there. It's just that I would prefer to be in a bigger environment, you know, working on policy and things that impact, you know, people in, you know, in situations that are, you know, far less fortunate than those of Australia.

Josh: So what'd you learn about ego throughout that time?

Andrea: It's just not useful.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: Anywhere.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: And I think that's, you know, that's part of what I've loved about being a reporter because you get thrown on onto so many— into so many different contexts and there's no room for ego. There's no room. You've got to be able to connect with people from all walks of life at any point during the day. And you've got to be able to transition between the Dalai Lama you know, Bill Clinton, Oprah, and someone who has lost their business in West Virginia, or, you know, a cold coal mining town. So you have, you just transition between these really extraordinary levels of life and each one of them are so rich and powerful in their own ways. And it's always been my job to get, you know, to get that backstory out of people. And some of my favourite storeys are talking to, you know, everyday Aussies who have lost everything in a house fire or something. You know, you're showing up on the worst possible day of their life and there's just no room for ego.

Josh: So the 4 years where you were feeling isolated, now looking back, if you were to create a listicle of the top tips for not being isolated in your career, what sort of advice do you have or thoughts you have on isolation?

Andrea: I think that's part of the process of finding your own tribe. I think you've got to go through you know, there's no shortcut. There's no shortcut to being content and really happy with yourself. You've got to go through that process. And, and I certainly went through that process in resettling, and I made a conscious choice to, to start a business and to follow it through no matter how painful it was. And, you know, in terms of would I change anything, not necessarily, because it's led me to this wonderful place where I have I have a really dynamic small business and I work with two of my favourite people and the work that we do is really meaningful and has big payoff for the businesses that we deliver into. So would I change anything? No, but I think for anyone coming back from a fairly big stint overseas, it's a challenge. And part of the challenge is something that you can't do anything about. It's just that Australia is so isolated from the rest of the world and you feel, you really feel that disconnect every day. But my answer to that is now, you know, taking 3, 4 overseas trips a year and working in London, working in LA and staying connected with my networks. So I keep that alive and I keep my inspiration alive.

Tommy: We've been talking about the tribes and building the people around you. And I love the way you said the old school networking is dead.

Andrea: Mm, it's over.

Tommy: What is, for people that might not be across the different types of networking because they just think there's one type of networking and that's just, you know, in the coffee room talking to people. What is the old school networking and what is the new school networking?

Andrea: I think the old school networking is something that most people tend to dread and that is walking into a room and, you know, exchanging business cards and just hoping for the best, having really awkward conversations. What I think is going to dominate, especially as our workforce moves to a far looser and less structured environment, is tapping into those dormant ties. So Dr. David Burkus has a great line about, "Show me a friend of a friend and I'll show you your future." So essentially the people that you've been connected with through school and university, reconnecting with, with those old ties. And because you're a qualified lead, you know, and it's not an insincere thing to do. I'll give you an example, which I wrote about. There's a— I grew up with a girl called Candy Stralor, who's so terrific. And we didn't go to the same school, but we were sort of in the same neighborhood. So we used to go nightclubbing and everything together. And I ran into her at an event 25 years later. No, not 25 years later, 20 years later. And maybe 15. And she was working in supply chain at Telstra. And she said, I'd love to bring you in. Come in and run your programme with the group. And that has, you know, it was incredible because she already trusted me. We had that established relationship. She knew what I was doing worked. And so there wasn't the process that you would normally go through, that lead time and that, you know, that qualification period that you would go through sometimes for a year or two with the business before they brought you in. So that's what I mean about reactivating the old ties. I think that our existing network is going to be a lot more useful to us. And that's a network that we don't have to, you know, cold call or introduce ourselves to in a really awkward way. So I feel like that's a great— that should be a great comfort to all of us.

Tommy: I think a lot of us want rapport now, you know, like you meet somebody and you want that trust. And it does take time.

Andrea: It does. It's not transactional.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andrea: I don't think humans— I don't know if we like transactional exchanges. We want meaning. And that's, that's part of the deal. The part of this is being connected to yourself and having meaningful exchanges that really add value. Is there a mutual value exchange when you're talking with someone or is someone just trying to sort of take, take, take from you?

Tommy: Yeah, the push and pull and it's, you know, the bullshit filter's greater than ever for most people on LinkedIn. You know, the inboxes that you get, it's just like so impersonal.

Andrea: It's transactional.

Tommy: It's hard. And so how do we utilise these platforms to do this new age networking?

Andrea: Well, I think you've got to map your own network and figure out who are the people the people, who are the people that you went to school with and you went to university with and where are they now? Look them up on LinkedIn and see what they're doing and just see if you can reconnect over an alumni event or over something that might be where there might be a mutual value exchange. But again, when you reconnect with someone, you want that to be meaningful. So find something, find something that's useful to talk about, not just, hey, how's it going?

Tommy: I know, like I grew up with some great people who are doing great things now and I And I've battled those feelings of like, ah, reaching out, they might just think this thing, but I know I've got value. And so you're battling this internal, you've got an internal fight happening.

Andrea: Well, you're telling yourself a storey that may not be real. So, you know, drop the storey and drop that narrative in your own mind and, you know, send them an email. But you might, I mean, there are so many reasons why you guys could get in touch with people that you went to school with.

Josh: What do you think about people who say have gone to low socioeconomic schools or they're part sort of a poverty cycle within their neighbourhood that don't have the support of, say, those alumni or sort of other networks. How do you transition if you're an 18-year-old or 19-year-old? How do you actually start to embed yourself into some of those networks?

Andrea: I think that's really important. And I would like to think that we all live in a society where we all have the same opportunity for success. And I think that, you know, if you find yourself in that cycle, I mean, part of it, part of me thinks, you know, groups like the Y group.

Josh: YGAP, was it?

Andrea: YGAP, yep. So I think that finding groups like YGAP, which is a community of people and a very diverse community, they're the kinds of communities that we want to be a part of because that's where real meaningful connections are found and real mentorship happens. Happens quite organically. So I think it's about finding those one or two communities that you know you can feel a belonging to because there's a difference between fitting in and belonging. So, but that is a great example of a group that's doing incredible work in the community and can be a touchpoint for people from all walks of life.

Josh: Well, you even look at Reach and so our friend Jules Lund and to see that that's a good example, right? And so I think, I think one of the challenges is even communicating that part of like going out, like taking that first step, I think is—

Tommy: Well, look at 3D Dill. He's from, our intern from Canada. He's come across to the other side of the world. He said something great in his post that we made a video about his journey over here. But I think it was something along the lines of, if you don't ask, the answer's always no. Which is profound, Dill.

Andrea: And isn't that a great thing? Isn't that profound? Totally. And so true, but isn't that the great thing about social? That you can, that there's no barrier to connecting with people anymore.

Tommy: We're all internet friends here actually. Like I met Josh through the internet. I know, no, we're old school. But Mr. 97, 3D Deal, us, you know. It's beautiful really.

Josh: But there is a, talking about that storey that we all tell ourselves, I think that that is such a, a key part of this as well.

Andrea: We have a narrative that sits in the back of our mind and drives behavior.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: So breaking that often and reminding yourself that that storey might not be— it's not real and not relevant.

Tommy: You're a good storyteller. When are you telling yourself the wrong story? Like, have you— do you— is it something that needs to be rewritten on a weekly or a monthly, or is it something you need to reread in your own mind?

Andrea: Just generally?

Tommy: Yeah, I think just, I think if we're telling ourselves stories, the storey can shift without consciously thinking we want to shift the story.

Josh: And sometimes it can help us, like, so say you've, you finish at a job, say for the, I've found first year there's a certain sort of narrative. Yeah. And then you sort of, you know, it's sort of the rose-colored glasses come off and you realise how shit the company was.

Andrea: Sure, we've all been there.

Tommy: Yeah, and they're not me.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And you do definitely You do definitely see that, right? Like I've been lucky enough to work at a bunch of interesting companies and seeing the people leave and you sort of see the process of the start of it's just like everything's fucked and then it sort of plateaus off to normal stuff. I mean, yeah, how do you reconcile the storeys of leaving and transitioning from roles?

Andrea: Self-awareness, I think you've always got to be, have a heightened sense of awareness in any situation and remind yourself that if a situation is uncomfortable or if you're feeling discomfort, that's temporary. It's always temporary. But you've got to, if you're exiting a business, you've got to be gracious about it because business is all about the long game. It's about relationships and it's about meaningful relationships. So you can't ever spit the dummy. You know, you've got to be an adult about it and respectful and respect that, you know, it just may not, it may not be the right fit for you. But I think self-awareness is everything and observing yourself, checking yourself, observing your emotions and often through that process alone, you can figure out what storey am I telling myself and doesn't match up with these other, you know, these other things that I'm seeing and feeling.

Tommy: I got excited reading where you were saying about audio. I mean, it's very much because we're in the audio game and how It's, you know, double video.

Josh: Or Tommy took out a different point than I did, but we'll get to that. Go on.

Tommy: Well, I mean, Gary Vee, you were mentioning Gary Vee. What excites you about the future in general? Yeah, I guess across, you know, what with all the research you've done for the book, because you've done career, you've done stuff on like artificial intelligence.

Josh: Was that right? Like from a technology standpoint?

Andrea: I think for me, the future of work is so many things and so many confusing and ambiguous things like the cloud, metadata, AI, robotics, etc. But for me, ultimately, the future of work is about talent, and it's about your talent. And, and when I talk about talent, I mean the human skills, which I think will disproportionately advantage us all in our careers. So, you know, and I think that we have to look at them in new ways and upgrade our skills in ways that we have perhaps not considered before. So, and if you think about the environment that we're going into, you can see why that's going to matter. So if you're going to place. If you're in a, in a gig exec economy, for example, and you're getting really short, sharp windows of face time, um, face-to-face time with the people that are hiring you, then you know that then, then your reputation capital is going to be more relevant across LinkedIn. Your comms skills have got to be short, sharp, compelling, and sincere and warm when you have those moments of pitching yourself. Um, you know, you've got to be able to solve problems for a business that are new problems. You've got to be dedicated to your continuous learning. What excites me most about the future of work is that I really believe there's a new breed of worker emerging, and that is someone who prioritises and is a master, has a master's in the human skills in addition to all of their technical skills, because that's what it's going to be. It's going to be about continuous learning, leading through emergent conditions, and all the other, and the other 8, you know, skills that I've written about.

Tommy: I haven't synthesised this thought completely yet, but so that's the ethos of this podcast.

Josh: Exactly. So yeah, that's the tagline. So yeah, exactly. So I'm curious to get your take on this. So the stuff around apologize— not apologizing, yeah, that type of stuff. Even there's a— there's sort of that push to don't work for free, that not specifically in your book, but there's certain language that's especially being used within sort of, um, uh, like sort of that business chicks, women in business. And what I worry about is that some of the experiences that I've had and the things that have made me personable or that has connected me with people have been some of against the advice that we're hearing to people who might have a handicap within an industry already. So I just wonder, are we going to— are we potentially creating a situation where people are cutting themselves off from opportunity based on bad advice. Sure.

Andrea: I think the most important thing to know about advice is that it's autobiographical. People are giving you advice from their own experience, and that is not always relevant or useful to you. So you've got to make that call in your own context. Yeah, it's as simple as that. You've got to go with your gut, and you've got to read a situation, read a room effectively, and do what you think is right. And there might be a negotiation in that, so you might do something for free, but in exchange change, you might ask for something in return. There might not be a financial exchange, but there might be something, you know, promotional or something else that's really valuable to you.

Josh: Yeah, there's complexities, I think, in all of this stuff which can sometimes be missed with that advice type stuff.

Andrea: You can't— you said, I think that you've got to assess things on a case-by-case basis and figure out, you know, how could we make it work? You can't— I don't think you can ever go into any discussion thinking the only thing I want to do is financially benefit from this discussion, because there are so many other ways that you can benefit through that relationship.

Josh: And some of it too is going against gut instinct as well, I guess, is part of it. So that willingness to apologise or whatever, that comes, I think, like I tend to do it a fair bit, and I feel like in some parts, you know, talking about I'm not an expert in this or things like that, When you are? Yeah, well, I think that this, this is, this is where that line is. I think some people will take this advice and maybe use it incorrectly, where it's like, I feel that it empowers me to say, if I'm in a room full of comms people and I'm specifically talking from a video perspective, I'm more than happy to say, hey, I know we've got a PR person on the call, I'm not an expert in this area, and then going to them.

Andrea: But you still have you still are an expert at an aspect of comms. And I think it's important not to play yourself down by using self-diminishing or tentative language. So I don't think that you would ever want to undermine your authority in a meeting by unnecessarily calling that out. Because I'll tell you, my hope is that every meeting I'm in, I'm definitely not the smartest person in the room. But I would never say that. I would never sort of acknowledge that. That I'm not an expert in something. I would say my focus is this.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: So you shouldn't preface a conversation by putting yourself down.

Josh: Yeah. Because it's interesting, we hear constantly that the US culture and the way they communicate versus the Australian self-deprecating. Is it real from your perspective? And was that learnt from being in Washington, DC and having hard conversations?

Andrea: Look, I think Americans generally are very direct and that's productivity driven.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: I mean, they're in a highly competitive market of 300 million people. When you are competitive in a field and you get a job, you want to walk in and deliver in the best way possible. And that means, that means communicating in, you know, in a direct but warm and sincere manner. And that's their conditioning generally, as opposed to Australians who are in a far smaller market. Where it's a bit more parochial in a sense. No, I think the greatest influence on me has been simply observing the difference between my ability to deliver a news report and then, and then, you know, the very big distinction between that and sort of off-camera conversations. So I think that that was actually a greater influence than, than, than being around people in DC, but it was impressive and intimidating, that's for sure.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, look at Gary Vee. He's pretty sure on what he does.

Andrea: Full on. And it's inspiring.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, I think, I mean, he's nailed it being in alignment with his values.

Josh: Sure.

Tommy: And I think there's advice culture out there. You're really seeing, is that my phone?

Josh: That's an alarm.

Tommy: You're really seeing like advice culture is, you know, people giving advice when it's not asked.

Andrea: And you have the option not to follow.

Tommy: Yeah.

Andrea: So, and that's a great thing about Gary.

Tommy: But I can't help but follow.

Andrea: I know, but Gary Vee, it's interesting because I find myself following him following him for a week at a time and then switching off, then following again and then getting notifications because it just depends on what space I'm in. But sometimes I'll need a kick, I'll need a kick and that's sometimes where I'll get it from. So you've got the option.

Josh: Yeah, I mean, from an Instagram, like who you follow on Instagram or who you consume, if you talk about that, you know, 5 people that are closest to you, I guess the 2019 version is, it's the people that you follow.

Andrea: Yeah.

Josh: What's your method or system in who you follow and what you consume?

Andrea: I don't necessarily have a system. I'm definitely driven by people who create original content and have original thoughts. So, and in fact, the way I found Belinda is I was going through Insta and it popped up in my, you know, a couple of years ago. And I remember thinking, wow, this is an operator who is, really sophisticated in her use of language and ideas and concepts. And of course, and naturally so, because she's a brand expert at the time doing a lot of work for PwC. So I actually, you know, hit Belinda up and said, I really wanna find a way to work together because that's the kind of, I really valued that original content and the ability to think critically about issues and to assess brands and figure out what is the tone, what's the right tone of my brand that reflects me authentically. So in terms of who I follow, it's really whoever I'm connecting with. And I'm obviously a very, because I'm television, very visual person. I love a strong visual, but I want that. I want some depth. I want some depth in the content. So that's what really drives me.

Tommy: Yeah. Are you excited about creativity as a real currency in the future of work?

Andrea: Oh, creativity is absolutely the last competitive advantage. Creative and original in the workplace, you will be noticed and you will solve problems for businesses in so many different ways. I think a real challenge that business is facing is getting new products and ideas to market in a really complex environment. So you need people on the team that can think creatively and differently. And interestingly, one of the biggest stats that has jumped out of me, jumped out at me recently is a statistic around 80% of CEOs being, when it comes to threat to business, to their business, 80% of CEOs know that or are concerned about an availability of key skills. And when we look closer at that data, 77% of CEOs can't find people who are creative. So there's a huge opportunity alert for all of us. And you can imagine the impact that has on a business's ability to innovate.

Tommy: Well, do you think it's the people are scared of being and living in that creative space because they don't think it's going to make them any money?

Andrea: Well, I think that, interestingly, you know, people who identify with being creative earn 13% more on average per household than people who don't identify as creative.

Tommy: Amen.

Andrea: Yeah, bring it, bring it on. Let's get that to 20%. So I think that businesses are trying hard to create the conditions to generate creativity, but that doesn't always work because you need to have the right people who are willing to be bold enough to share ideas and concepts that may backfire. So for me, creativity is, it's where we should be spending more time and allowing ourselves to be much more, you know, much more vocal about ideas that we have. Because we all know what it's like to sit around a table and think, should I say that? You know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how that's going to land. You know, you have that hesitation, but that's the moment where you've got to take a risk.

Josh: Yeah, I remember in 2013 reading an article that was all about around a stat that people who have nicknames in the workplace make more money. And so I straight away started signing off all my emails as JJ as sort of a tactic.

Andrea: How did it work for you?

Josh: Yeah, it did work. It worked. Yeah, absolutely worked. So that was, that was great.

Tommy: Money just came.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Um, but what is the— what is that balance between, um, being likeable within a workplace, being the mate, and actually getting shit done and being professional.

Andrea: I think we have to give, you know, have to be far more concerned with being respected than liked.

Josh: Yeah.

Andrea: And we all want to be liked and that's fine, but that's not necessarily going to, you know, get you to where you want to be. You don't want to be seen as a pushover. So I think that when it comes to, you know, pitching or any level of creativity or contribution you want to make, you've got to do it in a way you know, that signals you, you know, respect.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, the signal stuff I think is really interesting because it plays into that branding piece and what people are saying about you. What do you think people say about you?

Andrea: You know, I hope just nice positive things. I don't know. I mean, Belinda can jump in here anytime she likes, but I like you answering it. I'm feeling super vulnerable and awkward. Because I—

Josh: what do you actually want? Because I guess that's part of it, which is sort of like, it's uncomfortable to be like, uh, the reason that I went from wearing snapbacks and having a crazy neckbeard all the time and wearing hoodies was because I was like, if I actually, uh, dress like a creative director, I can actually like control my situation better and actually have that respect. And it's— I'm not necessarily a videographer for hire, I'm I'm a creative director within this.

Andrea: You're positioning yourself up here.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. And so I think that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that sort of, because there is a level of, I guess we think it's a bit fucked up to be thinking about ourselves in that way.

Andrea: But you do because that is, it's everything. That perception is everything and you can't control what people, how people respond to you. You can only control your own behavior. And I sort of identify with that. And a lot of work that I do is training leading ASX CEOs to communicate with authority and media training. And so often I find myself storming through marble lobbies in heels and the whole outfit. And I think—

Tommy: Great visual there.

Andrea: Storming through. Yeah, I'm pretty much storming through mostly because I'm running late. And so I've got to be really conscious of how people are, how that's landing with people. And a great way wakeup call for me coming out of reporting was, you know, ditching certain fabrics and ways of dressing because it would be a real shutdown point because I'm loud. And so that coming towards you, me storming down the hallway with this loud voice, it's really too much for a lot of people. So, you know, but simply by even doing something as simple as, you know, wearing flats and softer fabrics, you know, I feel friendlier, you know what I mean? So, and I really feel like I am a very warm person, but, you know, I do keep a really, keep a, you know, we're really busy. And, you know, I've said to people, I'm not someone who, you know, I don't show up to networking events and things because I'd rather be kind of reconciling stuff on Xero. There's always something to do, but, you know, generally speaking, you know, I mean, I hope, I feel like I'm really true to my own brand, I hope, which is, you know, someone who's dedicated to the growth of others.

Josh: You talk about in the book about resting bitch face.

Andrea: Yeah.

Josh: Is that actually being something that you have to consider in the workplace or communicating?

Andrea: Well, I had to consider that when someone met me for coffee a couple of years ago and they said, and it was really funny because I'm always so surprised at what people say to me sometimes. But this person said, she was, I think she was an HR director and she said, look, I have to tell you that you are much friendlier, you look much friendlier in person as opposed to your LinkedIn photo. And I was genuinely horrified. So, you know, I called a photographer, got a new headshot that I thought was more approachable. That was a really valuable piece of feedback to me.

Josh: So a bit of a, like a lean in approachable or what? How do you, how do you look?

Tommy: Did you show teeth?

Andrea: Just friendlier, just, you know, just friendlier. But I, that was a real shock to me. And I felt I was so grateful for that feedback because she said that is the best resting pitch face I've ever seen. And I thought that is That is not the signal that I wanna send because I don't think it's me.

Josh: It's interesting because that is like an example of advice where you can wear what you want, be you, all that sort of thing. But there is that thing of like when you are playing within a system, it's like the burqa in Iraq. You could have been like, oh no, that's not me. I'm not gonna wear it. That's a real quick way to get fucked up, right?

Andrea: You've gotta meet your environment halfway. Yeah, you've got to literally meet it halfway and be respectful of whatever that environment looks like.

Tommy: I felt like a fish out of water in the big corporate environments where we've done work. And I've worked—

Andrea: They're like, well, here comes the creatives.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Tommy: Who's entered the building without permission? But I've worked with people on personal brand that have been in the corporate environment. And there is, maybe it's something I don't understand from not having being worked on the inside of these corporate environments. But what we're talking about is like deciding how much we're going to share of ourselves, you know, like the corporate presentation that people need to put on versus who they are on Friday night drinks. And how do we market ourselves? Do we bring in some of that, you know, real smiley, bubbly, funny, or do we need to sort of save face?

Andrea: Or I don't think it's a sustainable place to be, to fake any part of who you are. To try to fit in or belong to a corporate environment. I think that's part of the discovery that we all make about what kind of culture we want to be a part of and how we want to spend 120 hours of our week. So that's a great, it's a great place to be, to be figuring that out and realise that, you know, why would you want to be anyone else? You know, Brené Brown has one of my favourite lines and it's about, you know, be bold enough to be who you are without apology. It's that simple.

Josh: Yeah, I think that for a lot of people it's actually, uh, trying to work out who you are. I think that that's part of it too, is it's because in this complex world that we're in and complex humans that we are, we have different versions of ourselves. And so I think that that is part of it, which is like, which one am I bringing to this?

Andrea: Um, well, and also our interests change, you know, our values strengthen as we get older as well, and, and we want to be in a place that reflects that, you know, hence my ditching television at that point in time. So when you feel like things are clashing, you know it's time to move on. And that's a great thing about all of us. We're constantly a work in progress.

Tommy: I love the book. I love that you've taken everything you've learned from on the ground in Iraq and on the ground in DC and taken those experiences and sort of wrapped storey with strategy and process, which is, I love it. It's really practical. Tactical.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, it's a good mix of that storytelling stuff and then actually having tips that you can walk away with.

Tommy: And no sign of resting bitch face here.

Andrea: No, look at that, super friendly and approachable. Um, yeah, it was really important that we had, um, you know, that I had a narrative that, that led into something that was tactical. And I didn't necessarily start out to write a book that, you know, had exercises in it, but, but it's so important for me. And as a facilitator, that's so in my nature to give people things that they can apply tomorrow, you know, in a workplace or in their lives. So, but it was important to start with the backstory because there were genuinely lessons that I learned from those sort of interesting incidents.

Josh: With the COVID how much thought went into what the cover's gonna look like? Was it tempting to have a flak jacket sort of Hugh Remington style?

Andrea: Hilarious.

Tommy: It definitely wasn't the photographer that did the last photos.

Josh: No, it wasn't.

Andrea: It was a different one. Ross Coffey, who's incredible. I struggled to think, how could I illustrate? How do you graphically illustrate the future of work? Like, you know, in a graphic design sense, if we weren't going to have my face on the COVID what would that look like? And I felt like the future of work is, it's an intimidating, confusing, ambiguous topic for so many people. And so I actually had a really long chat to Belinda and to Bernard Salt, who's my mentor. And has been for many years about having my face on the COVID And I really felt like as a communicator, I love to connect with people and I wanted to have that opportunity. So it was a really, you know, two reasons. I couldn't, I'm like, how do we do a drawing that's gonna help people understand more about the future of work? How do you illustrate that? It's so difficult. So that was really the driving force to have making a call just to put my photo on and just hope for the best.

Tommy: I think it speaks true to your knowledge on personal brand though. 'Cause it's hard to connect to if you weren't on there, just looking at the work.

Andrea: Exactly, that's my point.

Tommy: See you, if you've ever worked with you. Yeah. I think it's great.

Josh: There was a few things in there that really connected with me. One of them was your appreciation of walkie-talkies, which you—

Andrea: Oh yeah.

Josh: Tommy's always sort of trolling me with walkie-talkies.

Tommy: They don't work half the time.

Josh: I literally brought, I turned it on and then Mr. 97, I was attaching it to my belt this morning for for today's show and Mr. 97 said no. And so I put it away. No walkie-talkie.

Andrea: It's a great prop though.

Josh: Yeah, it would have been a good prop. I stand by, it was a great prop. But the other thing we have in common—

Tommy: It is just a prop.

Josh: Exactly. And humidity as well. The hater of humidity. I don't know why Bali is a good location for holidays because I end up having anxiety attacks based on the humidity.

Andrea: Look, I don't care if I'm on holiday, if I'm working, you know, it's impossible for a girl to look great in humidity on camera. It's just a very simple proposition. Like, forget it. Like, you've got to embrace a new level of authenticity.

Josh: You're speaking Josh's language. Yeah, when I went on a big trip and it was summer in a lot of places like Pakistan and Indonesia, and I had some pants, like I'm normally a shorts, I used to be a shorts guy. That was a previous, brand, but the combination of the pants and the humidity was quite a stressful situation.

Andrea: It's punishing. And in that circumstance, I was in Cambodia and shooting a storey on landmines. And the problem is, as you guys would know, humidity really impacts your equipment. And so it shuts it down, it plays up, it's really tricky. And that's— it just adds to the frustration. Of feeling like you're in a steam room wanting to harm yourself.

Josh: Yeah, it's not ideal.

Andrea: Yeah.

Josh: Andrea, thanks for coming on the show.

Andrea: Pleasure.

Josh: Be great to have you, uh, back on soon. You're in Sydney normally, is that where you're based as well? Great. The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com, uh, if you want to send us an email. Google Career CEO and you'll see all of Andrea's stuff. So we'll see you tomorrow, guys. Thanks, guys.