- April 29, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we’re joined by Craig Bruce. Craig is one of Australia’s best radio minds. He spent close to 30 years at Southern Cross Austereo — with a huge amount of experience in leading content teams. He’s played pivotal roles in developing Australia’s biggest radio talent — Hamish and Andy, Jules Lund and Kyle and Jackie-O.
Craig has unique insights into the content that’s shaped mainstream media in Australia and abroad. He now helps radio teams around the world through his consulting business and connects with the industry’s biggest names on and off the microphone with his podcast, Game Changers: Radio.
- The importance of external connections and relationships
The pressure of picking talent and potential
Behind the scenes of radio’s biggest personalities
Generating content ideas and content originality
Waiting for the phone to ring after finishing at SCA
Craig’s thoughts on podcasting and mainstream media
Radio’s only hope
Restrictions and government regulations on content
Craig’s relationship with ego and money
Starting a breakfast show from scratch
How numbers and surveys affect the content you create
Bringing an objective perspective to feedback
Craig Bruce’s website: http://craigbrucecoaching.com
Craig Bruce’s podcast, Game Changers: Radio: https://radiogamechangers.com/
Email us: firstname.lastname@example.org
Send us mail: PO BOX 400, Abbotsford VIC 3067
A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
This podcast is produced by BIG MEDIA COMPANY. Find out more at https://bigmediacompany.com/
It's a daily Talk Show Episode 335. And we've got a special guest in our brand spanking new studio. Craig Barry. How are you?
Did you get my name? I butchered that blue.
that you told me talks because every time I do it, Tommy brings it back to my childhood and my mom every time she was sort of putting me down how I said words
cray cray, both Craig both Welcome.
My name is actually a problem I because you know, I've got the two first names, and I take it for granted now. But whenever I go anywhere, if I'm checking into a hotel or whatever, I do the same thing every time which is a Bruce, is this an MBA? Yeah, you kinda have to say it, because people just assume,
yeah, Bruce, or Craig or which was the one fighter I never did. But I it was like, the first idea when I got to ship it in was
stem from your name? Who has two first names in their name?
Did you see it?
Probably be scared. I mean, you were that was the so when I was in shepherd, and you were looking at the world? That was the peak of your career.
peak of the commercial space.
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Well, the I'd been in the role head of content at all stereo for a year, and then the merge happened. And I think that's when the merger happened with Southern Cross, which had a bunch of regional stations, and we had the metro stations and the company came together. So I think you came on board after that, obviously, yeah, we weren't dealing with any regional stations at that time. 2013. That's when
I came at the wrong time, is what you're saying. It's all
I feel like I always push back like Tommy's got away with words. So like, I like when he speaks with people like saying at the peak of your career,
in terms of you're in a different space.
But the thing is, no, because I see this like I seriously do. I'm not just fucking blowing smoke up your ass. Right now, I think is like the most exciting time, which is the combining or the the hybrid of all that experience of in that management level, to now being able to almost like, you know, bring it to the world and bring it to younger talent. Do you feel Do you feel that transition?
Yeah, well, I
kicked and screamed the whole way through the process in terms of I think I may have talked to you about this before. I mean, I was just institutionalized austerity on SEO. I was a young kid, when I started there at 18 and Lyft. When I was 4830 years, essentially all of my adult life with this company, all it comes to mind for me is three lots of annually.
Or long service. Sorry.
No, I speaking I
was I bet Yeah, I could imagine you're the type of guy who would have used these SCA mouth for everything, you didn't even have your own personal I didn't know,
I had nothing other than my SEO persona. So it took me six months to really shed that skin long time, maybe longer to months. And I really had all of these people that I worked with, who I had work connections with, that looks like friendships, nine to five, but they were really just great work friendships, and there's a difference between the two. So, you know, you end up leaving a company and you know, it's really lonely.
Do you feel the pressure of it being like a, what is it this second? Dance, it's the second act, you know,
for a second album,
second album, you've you've come out of the commercial space entering into a new landscape. And you know, what I have to do? has to be good. And that's probably a self imposed pressure people put on the field and left the band.
Yeah. Well, I if
someone had offered me a full time job doing what I had previously done, I would have taken it so and thank God, it didn't happen, because I think I'm further down the track in terms of just creating some other opportunities for myself. But you know, at the time, I just wanted the phone to ring and for me to be able to put some pants on and get back to work, you know. So when I did, I'd wanted to wait, when can I get to wear jeans and a shirt and be in an office? Again, that is
weird. You know, there was a comfort after 30 years, okay,
well, because when you're in that type of job, the the world revolves around you, and lots of ways and depending on how you deal with that, and I enjoyed being able to help people and solve problems, whether they were professional or personal. And, yeah, and all of my persona was wrapped up in that. So it took a long time to work my way through it. And yeah, I guess what is it now almost four years. I mean, the podcast has been really helpful. But I think it was actually Jules long gave me the best advice I had. A lot of
people asking for it. Just comes and goes. Bruce, he, he's a piece of
Yeah, he so salmon and jewels took me at St. Kevin, who's a great friend. So Sam's a great friend, and Jules is is someone that I'm really close within. So they had a sort of a, you know, wrap up dinner. A couple of weeks after I finished up, where did you go? We went to a Mexican restaurant at the back of on some kilter. what's the what's the drag on? Oh, yeah,
See my house, the one that closed down is a blue
ready, ready in Mexico.
was a Tex Mex
or fresh neck. Tools, use the Nando's cat.
That's it, you're only having eight of those thighs 12 or 16. So he said, Do you, you gotta write down what you know, and just put pen to paper and start writing. And,
and I did, I started blogging, not necessarily for any other reason than just to make sure that I could kind of collect my thoughts and sort of get some structure around some of the IP that I had, and some of my thoughts on on what I might do next, and, you know, lessons along the way. And so that was the starting point. And actually, the client that I have in Canada,
it's the consulting works really hard and looks exciting, and it is the actual works amazing. But to get a new client is unbelievably detailed, you know, you and you guys would know this in your own business, it's really hard to find clients. And it normally starts from Do you have a relationship with the either the head of content or the CEO, it's, it's, it's based on relationships. And so I had written a blog about the fugitive, which was a radio concept from years ago, that we developed in Adelaide. And, and I wrote about, you know, how the idea was developed. And it started, you know, as this tiny acorn seed of an idea and how it became it's really amazing contest. And I got an email a couple of days late. So I published it in a couple of days later, I got an email from Steve Jones in Canada. And the title of the email was, so now I know how I can thank for the fugitive, which was so because I had been doing it in Canada for X number of years. And I was really interesting day the story behind it. And he said, It's funny, I've got a role coming up shortly, you know, would you be interested so that sort of that one thing leading to another. But and and i don't ride or podcast to, to get new clients. I do it for other reasons. But that certainly was one example of here's some content that resonated and build a connection through it. So what did you learn about relationships when you left Seo? Well, I learned that's a great question. I Why didn't work nearly hard enough at external relationships? I mean, I was really good at internal SEO relationships, but I didn't work nearly hard enough. From an industry perspective. Yeah. Because I just didn't value the the idea of having to I'm not a networker. I'm a natural introvert. I have, you know, small group of friends. I don't like being in you know, spaces where there's people I don't know. And this is fine.
This is exactly what about Mr. 97?
I might, I might have a conversation.
I feel like I'm very similar in that regard. Just like keeping the keeping the circle. Small. Yeah, something but it also can, I guess, on the flip side, turn into isolation when the few friends that you have are all doing their thing at SCA and then you know,
you're you're at home? Well, the reality was I because I didn't have a connection with the CEOs of Iran and Nova. You know, you kind of starting from scratch, in terms of the role I was doing previously, there was really it was essentially, yeah, I'm on here on my own starting again, virtually.
And Craig, I've always wondered
who is responsible? And he's the one person and was it you that could pick a talent could actually say I want them to be on the radio?
depends on the situation. And and you know, where that person's out in their career, if they're brand new starting and you can hear, you can hear something that's, you know, underdeveloped, but there's there's some raw material to play with, then yeah, that's a combination of either myself or, you know, when I was at FCA God Dobson, or Dave Cameron, or Sam, Kevin. And sometimes, you know, we would have debates around, you know, whether a particular person might be as good as someone else thinks they are. But normally, you can hear something. And and as a programmer, most programmers can kind of hear potential. Yeah. And then it's a question of, you know, what happens from there. So, but that was my role. And so right now, you know, Duncan and I are in projects in at NOVA jammer on the hit network and 50 on triple m. the gatekeepers of Yeah, who moves up the chain, it was always like it.
Maybe it's jaded radio people. But as soon as a new talent or someone who has been around for a long time gets into a role, it's like you can, it's easy to jump to the Why would you put them on, but there's also a lot of pressure for you, right? Yeah, like you feeling like shit, this has to work.
I never had, I never felt that kind of pressure, there would have been a heap on me the time but I never felt it, I sort of compartmentalize that part of the work. You just the funny thing with it is that from from a content perspective, from a programmers point of view, you want every show to be successful. So whilst it on the outside looking in it, it looks like it's a it's a flaky job being a breakfast host. And you know, there's so much at stake and so much risk involved. But what we want is the same as what the performer wants, which is a long successful career, you know, when we put a show together, and when anyone puts a show together, it's based on Okay, let's hope this is around in eight years from now let's do everything we can to make sure that that's the case. And that obviously doesn't happen all the time. But it's like any industry I mean, I think it's, it's all needles in haystacks. At the end of the day, you particularly when you're talking about incredibly talented shows that can change the trajectory of a company like Hampton Eddie did for for our stereo, they come along once in a blue moon, and you got to be ready for them and, and they never look or sound like what they end up being. And that thing comes down to who you surrounding them with and what kind of people have you got around around the show as it develops and as it finds its food and and that's that's where the I guess the art and science come together was the Hamish and Andy thing when they when you sort of first met them. What was that that feeling of could be onto something here? Or was it and what was a reference point? What were what were Hamish and Andy going to be? Yeah, well, so the story is that, so Jules land had won a radio contest being 15 days of fame on Fox. And I was working at Fox as assistant content director. I brought the idea from Adelaide, and we used it at Fox. And so Jules one this concept of being on the radio for 15 days and, and having a sense and experience of what it's like to be famous for 15 days. So we
driving the school every day. You Tracy and Matt. Okay, Ryan, listen
Yes. And he was amazed as you can imagine, he did the role brilliantly. He was an incredible comedian. Just a perfect fit for that for that idea. So he
didn't you advice at that point?
Well, it's funny, you should say but he
said he was a he's a nobody at that point. It's just a listener who's who's registered for the idea. And it just so happened that because I was working on the concept in my role as assistant content director, which was essentially to bring the thing together. Were you in Melbourne at this time?
Because you spent a lot of like you do you grow up in Adelaide,
grew up in Adelaide born and bred? Yeah.
And so I had
I mean, I've lived in Melbourne on and off for four or five years in Brisbane and Perth and Gold Coast. So I've lived everywhere yet.
Adelaide, sort of home base and non radio people it is very common practice. We'll just move around.
Pack your stuff. You're off to Perth. Yeah, wherever you might be. You're after shepherd. Yeah. So you were in Melbourne. So you're in Melbourne and the time you're in Melbourne at the time. Jules has the 15 days. So we worked together for 15 days. And I immediately liked him as soon as I met him, he's just an awesome guy. And and we had and he's my type of person I because I'm introverted. I get my energy from from myself but also from others that that he inspires me I always had. So
and during conversations in and around the 15 days, he would tell me about these trips that he would go on overseas with his mates and they get themselves on talk shows and they do all these crazy fucking things. And he said, in particular, actually, one of them's that they are actually they have a radio show at the local uni. And I said, Well, we need to meet them. Who are these people? So I don't know week later, or whatever these three tall lanky kids walking to Brian forward who is the program directors office at Fox if M. So it was Ryan, Hamish and Andy. And they sat down and we talked to them and and you know, what are you doing? And what are you up to? And then we took them into the studio. And because I was still on the air at that time, and assistant content director, I was the, the anchor of the little pilot show that we did,
you could paint cackling cry,
which would work so much better in terms of the iteration. And so there I am. And have you know, 119 the fox, it's Hi, Michelle. Hi, Jenny. And Ryan, I guess we call it and they started speaking. And hey, Mrs. is doing what Hamish does. And my jaw is on the desk
Who the hell? This guy's unbelievable. I mean, they were incredible. The three of them together, as you know, and but
they didn't do what I did insult Craig in the first
They didn't do.
Yeah, what was the actual? Can you sort of
it's, I guess what you hear with him? It's just incredible wit just so fast on his feet and and just away with language. And that's not I mean, I heard him his first and obviously Andy's as critical that they can't do the show without each other. But that's what I heard. Yeah. And so I walked out of the studio down to the first floor where the executives that national executives were in a guy called Jeff Ellis, who's a great mentor and friend. And I went into his office and I said, Man, I don't know how much you've got in terms of you know, and I knew they were warehousing talent and had some content budgets for developing talent. I said, you just got to put it all on black you just get these guys on the air. Yeah. And look that said that is the story. But But you know, and I played it like a 1% role. Brian Ford was content director and was key to getting them on the air and into situations obviously Sam Kevin came into the mix. And then they did all of the work themselves.
and we had five years with them in Off Broadway, Sean's I mean, they didn't go from zero to 105 minutes, they worked really hard over a long period of time. And, and even when we had them ready to go, we hold them back for another six to 12 months. You know, they did drive in Melbourne, before they did the national show. So that was a lesson in, you know, working with them and developing them and having them absolutely primed and ready and chemistry
you bring that down to luck. Because you could push it back on luck and say no, I at that time was on the hand. I've been doing the work trying to identify who's talented.
Oh, well, that was just happenstance. That was luck that we and we didn't know that we would need Hamish nanny like we did in a few years from from that point because, you know, Nova had just launched a nova you know, ended up you know, absolutely telling us in every market you know, there were the younger cooler Hippo brand and, and and just in in every single market wherever they launched their betas. Essentially, they had a mascot that worked in festivals better
you ever have a costume like a fox costume.
I wore the fox costume or basketball.
I've been Fox.
Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. Pretty hot in there. It's horrible.
They completely discontinued the fox
like me. Yeah, I think so. Well, there's the fox suit doesn't exist anymore. Well, I hope it
Every sweaty straight table was in that Jocelyn probably has it he's going to provide a good collection
students in general.
You You mentioned you held them back? How old ha and Ryan at the time? Yeah. back a bit, or I'm guessing at that point, it was just
early, cold, pretty, pretty well from the start. And
so the holding the back, is that a common thing that you think that you have to do a talent pushing harder and you're having to pull?
Yes, that that's absolutely true. I think that most you know, presenters or you know, really good presenters are always in a hurry and probably, you know, want to get to wherever it is they want to go faster than we would necessarily think is a good thing for them to do. What's the risk? Do you think? Well, just not being ready for a big stage. So I you know, and in 2001 205
I mean, American Roscoe were the preeminent male comedy duo young handsome funny and for us, you know, we're developing Hamish nanny and thinking kind of a could almost be a bit of a me to thing if we're not careful. As in, you know, he's our version of American law. So not that we ever thought of it like that, but we didn't want that for them. We didn't want that comparison. Just to be clear. Hamish in any way, never caught up in a meter.
So yeah, we,
but you know, you could just hear them evolve, and we would just give them more and more opportunities. And I think the thing with with them was that they were just so open to it was a collaborative approach, you know, let's see if we can do more in this area, let's put you into this show for for a period of time, and they were just really open to the experience in open as you know, them, you know, they're very, they're, it's, it's about you know, they're happy to take feedback and and they're interested in, in abundance, right. You can get good from wherever you can take that information from.
I just love that. So a group of friends, it's amazing that you've got Ryan Shelton, Jaime's blog, and he lay jewels land with her
with her. Yeah. Katie diamond
sand castle. It's amazing that it's just this. And they're actually friends from very long time ago. Yeah, no, just reasoning this?
Well, they kind of it's the degeneration of our generation. Right. It's, you know, it's the meek and tiny and Tom and, and Rob, you know, they had that collective and Hamish and Andy and friends, they all share a very similar worldview. And, you know, they were just, it was an amazing time, we would often I would talk to Dave Cameron often about the the idea of just just to take a moment to realize what's happening. Not not to us, but just being able to experience what was happening for them and being close to it. Yeah. Because it was, we knew something really special was happening. And because they were so gracious, and you know,
that we're just so open to everyone being a part of it. It was such a great experience for us all. So
what was, what
was your morning routine? Like, going back 15 years, because I love nostalgia. And I think
15 years ago isn't even the 90s now, but going back that far? What was your life? Like? What were you doing in the mornings? What was what was your your day back then?
Well, I had I mean, I had younger kids then. So Tommy will tell you what that's like, in the morning, it's hell with
get me out of the house, I run your morning routine.
I would. I mean, I always try and get into work early, because I just feel I think I can get more done before other people sort of turn up. You know, normal routine, depending on if I was running a radio station, it's to listen to the Breakfast Show. So you can have some feedback ready for them after the show
you always live close by to the studio, would you drive in which
I would drive it I guess when I'm I mean, in Adelaide, everything's only ever 1015 minutes away. Never Far, far from anything in Adelaide. In Melbourne, when I was here, I live down in by tomorrow. So sort of a 30 minute drive in and you catch a couple of breakfast shows. But yeah, as a programmer, you know, your morning job is to listen to the Breakfast Show. And and to have something ready for them at nine o'clock to you know, help them or give them some feedback. And so that was it.
what's called an a check. Yeah. Is that was that were you?
Well, yeah, I mean, I look, the checks changed a bit over the years, not necessarily in a good way or necessarily, you know, depending on the show, it's idea that you need to play audio teams that are well and truly developed and most shows will know if that you know, particularly if they're if they've been around for a while will know if they've had a good break or a good day. And you don't need to go and grab the audio to make a point of it. But if you developing a new show, then sometimes you'll need on more not sometimes, often, you'll need to play them content, just to give them a sense of where they're at. So depending on the quality of the show, it might just be a case of I mean, I just try to my thing was always my reaction to content that worked. And then just try and see if I can find or help them find ways to do more of that type of content. Success leaves,
Yeah, it's that replay idea of going okay, well, that that worked really well. And that's your best. And let's see if we can do more of that. That's really it is because as a performer and I'd had many years on the year that that always resonated for me. I just needed to know when I was in the in the zone and what was working for me and and, you know, the little things that I couldn't do as well became less of an issue when you focus on your strengths. Yeah,
so the the saying there's no original idea 15 years ago, was their original ideas happening in radio, the things you might see today, that will mimic but were invented back then I know you mentioned the fugitive. Yeah, and even the fugitive is a is a an offshoot of an old idea. I mean, Hamish and Andy had 100 genuinely unique ideas. No, no, today is not just about them. But they did have a lot of really unique concepts.
I think, I mean, that to me, is at the heart of it. When you're creating content, it's it's about the idea and the angle, particularly when you're playing, you know, in breakfast radio, with the big stories, most shows are going to land on the same story at the same time. And then it just comes down to the approach and how you attack it and what the angle is. And, you know, the good shows, I heard this, this idea of the third thought, have you heard of the so guy called del close, who's a improv comedy legend, and did a lot of work with the SNL guys back in the 80s, and 90s. And Adam McKay, on a podcast a couple of months ago was talking about this. So his theory was said, from an improv perspective, you have the first thought in improv, which tends to be a bit knee jerk and have been reactive and instinctive. And what he would do as an improv coach was to force the performer into the second and then into the third thought. And he's the idea being that that third thought is where the, the richness of the idea tends to sort of to come out. And so from a when I heard him talk about that, I thought about that from a radio perspective, and a lot of breakfast shows CD in that first thought paradigm, which is,
here's a topic, let's do a phone or on it, or here's a topic, I'll do a rave about it, or here's a topic, let me get it guest. And good shows are the ones that can go. Let's sit down comfortably in that first thought, and is there anything else we can do? And then that second and third thought comes from that it's practice around that, but it can work?
What's your third thought on what we're doing in you know, the podcast space, in comparison to sort of the the shows that you saw coming up in radio landscape?
Well, I mean, I guess my third thought around this show would be how it's it's how narrow Can you make the brief? And how, how specific, can you I mean, there is no longer tail than in podcasting right now. It's just it's like opinions and assholes. In the shop, one, podcasting, and opinions are the same. And that feels like everyone's got one
totally missing 97.
if I was, if I was programming this show, I'd be saying how narrow Can we make the brief? And how clear Are you on on where you want to take this thing?
And can you be a catch all things to all people interview show? Or do you need to narrow the brief? And then we would sit in uncomfortable silence as we work our way through that the first reaction might be No, we're in exactly the right spot. And you might do some work around. Okay, well, what else could it become? Or what might develop into and that's the process that that I like to work towards? What is mainstream mean, do you think in 2019? Well, I don't think I mean, mainstream doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. I mean, it's it's all narrowcast. Isn't it really, this this broadcast and narrowcast? And, I mean, I love where media is out right now I know, it's, it's hard for lots of people and doesn't feel like there are as many opportunities potentially, maybe not in my industry. But as a consumer. You know,
I'm interested in politics, religion, philosophy.
And I can get all of that just, it's right here, exactly what I'm what I'm interested in, and, and
I love that I can, you know, I've got three, four hours in every day where I'm either at walking, or I'm in the gym, or whatever. And I'm just filling my head with stuff. And I'm
in a place that you're in the gym for three hours, three to four hours.
Or I'm in the gym, or I'm in a garden or
whatever. There is that time where we can feel it. Yeah, with the podcast. Yeah.
So I mean, I love where it's at right now. And look, there's always downsides to it. I worry that you can, you can have a media diet that is so biased and so focused on the things that you believe that you miss opportunities to kind of broaden your mind a little. I listened to Ben Shapiro most days, not because I'm right leaning in my politics, it's but I feel like I've got to get some other side of the story. Yeah, with what's happening in the States. And he seems to be about the best out of all of the conservative commentary that that at least will call a spade a spade around Trump. So that, you know, there's there's downsides to all of that. But I'd love words.
What about when you were sort of at that 15 years ago? What were you listening to outside of the shows you're working with? And there wasn't access to?
No, I mean, I was listening to radio. I was literally not listening to anything on the radio. But that was my job. I was being Yeah, I mean, I listened to radio, I compartmentalize my radio listening, I listened to a lot of radio, with the companies that I work for. But when I'm not, you know, in my own time, I listen to what I'm interested in. And I think that's, that's the difference now, where, you know, 15 years ago, you either had to wait for that show on Sunday afternoon on ABC, or whatever it might be, or you had to buy that book, or you had to wait for that speaker to come to Australia or whatever. But now, it's, it's all there. And and I think, you know, for for you guys, you know, what would you have done seven or eight years ago, you know, you finish it, ship it? And then it's like, Okay, well, what am I going to use? What's my platform for self expression? And how am I going to do that, and, you know, today, there's 100 ways you can dead end result, I didn't
think it was podcasting. I didn't think what I'd be doing this after radio wasn't on my radar as much.
I think part of it too is, for me, having seen where podcasting was in 2005, it feels like it had peaked in this weird white like, it's sort of, if it's what I've learned is that it's it like, it takes about three false peaks before you actually get to something. And so I think that, that that's been a learning, which is like, just because something's not taking the first time, it might be too early for the actual public,
or, I mean, you talked before about mainstream, and I haven't doing an interview with Larry Rosen, who runs a research company out of the states, and next week on the podcast, and you know,
from a mainstream perspective, the actual awareness of podcasting, just as a platform is really only starting to grow now into the 50s and 60%. So there's a whole portion of the audience out there that don't even know that this exists defined. Do you think that the cash will ever transition from radio to say, podcasting and new media? Or does radio have a special source? That is the mainstream bit? That means that you can pay talent a million dollars? He? Yeah, well, I think it's going to hold for a period of time, for how long it's hard to know. But I mean, I think the connected car is going to have a lot to do with it. It's it's a, you know, people are talking about, you know, the spot speakers, and that being, you know, the savior of radio, finally, there's a radio back in people's homes again, but which is one way to look at in my view would be well, yes, that's a frictionless experience to find the radio in your home, but it's just as easy to find Spotify or anything that you're interested in from a streaming perspective. And you know, as as, you know, cars become not more connected, they are already connected. But as people buy new cars and upgrade their cars, you know, it's on one button away from whatever podcaster one listen to, I can bypass the radio in my car. So that was the last bastion in terms of a place of listening that radios had a hold on for a long, long period of time, and that that will change over because it the change is not it's not a it feels revolutionary, but it's it's slow enough for I think, for people to kind of get their heads around. Okay, where do how do we need to adjust and pivot?
Mr. 97? He's 19. And that, you know, you have you ever listened to the radio. And it's such a fascinating thing, because we grew up with it. Of course, it was just so native to us. And I know, there was about five apps when I was working for the company that came out trying to get encourage people to use their phones to access radio, was there a pressure when you you know, in amongst it, or some stress out, you know, saying we need if I can work this out?
Well, I mean, my view on working it out, always comes back to talent. So I think that, you know, radios only hope is to encourage people like Hamish Blake, and a young Hamish and Andy and whatever iterations of that show exists today to choose radio over podcasting, or or, or a YouTube channel or whatever it is that they might do you think
they'll ever become the same thing? Like, yeah, I think
Yeah, and you're starting to see that in, there's plenty of people on my podcast over the last couple of months that are doing, you know, great video content and making and have audiences on a bunch of different platforms and, and really don't think much about it, they just, it's just part of what they want my audiences here, here and here. So I'll be here, here, and here, a little bit of video, and I'll write a blog, and I'll talk on the radio and it all sort of comes together. But, you know, what's happened in the states is that radio stopped investing in talent. And and if that happens here in Australia, then the decline will happen really quickly. And what worries me at the moment is that there is no young show coming through changing things up, like, there was 10 to 15 years ago on radio and Australia at the moment, and all of the shows that are on the air have fantastic and heritage and we've heard them over the years, and they're all familiar voices, and we love them, you know, you Dave users. And, and, and, you know, and Fifi and all of these presenters who are amazing, but you know, Fifi was doing a national drive show on trip limit. 28 Yeah, well, that's the next Fifi. And where's the next young comedian that is going to think of the world differently to how you know, I do.
Yeah, well, I think that the the reason why I think routines are interesting is because it will then somewhat dictate what people are listening to it. Like I remember growing up listening to the cage in the morning, the shebang in the afternoon, and then finishing it on off with love song dedication. And so,
think there's a way for you to love love some dedications. Well,
I remember they had a site where you could actually put in, like, you love song requests and maze and a mo teen would just sort of Listen, like actually had a call you're using with your girlfriend.
I had no one.
the Yeah. So I do wonder though, whether the the radio the way that is the mainstream this of it, whether we can innovate whether we can have fresh perspectives in regards to, you know, the restrictions, like just the fact that there's licenses and there's certain things you can say the certain things you can't say, do you do you see that as a limiting factor? Totally. Yeah,
absolutely. We can say and do whatever we want. And I heard Russell Brand talking to Joe Rogan the other week. And you know, Russell's got his own podcast, Joe's got his and they're making their own content without having to answer to anyone. And that's what I love most about it Josh
got about four people in these 10. Yeah. Which is the biggest, I guess in the world.
Yeah. So he, you know, he's, and you see his weekly guest list. And it's the most, you know, broad range of people you could imagine, but it's there his choices. So, yes, there is a playbook that lots of shows and performers have to sort of work around in the mainstream space and, and narrow by design doesn't tend to work. When you're trying to get the largest audience you can. But
that, I mean, it's funny when we saw the other show that I had, that I was around when it was successful was calling jack. And that idea when we launched it was around breakfast with the stars and it being a celebrity focused Breakfast Show, which was new at the time, and we had to play in that space because American Rosco, were doing breakfast in Sydney. And you know, we needed something different. So this single focused idea around celebrity pop culture was probably the last narrow content play. And the irony is it becomes the biggest show Australia but it had a single idea. And yeah, it's it's harder to do that. These days in broadcast narrowcast. Obviously, it's the, you know, once again, getting back to your point, it's okay, well, how you know, how defined Can you make this concept? You know, what is it
exactly do? Well, you're talking with Clive Dickens on game changes about the terrorist attack in New Zealand and how the government was able to film and put it out on to his audience. Yeah, exactly. So
I just say Mr. 97, it was in that video. Really, she? Yeah, you could see her in the
illustration, he got hit by a car. It's crazy. And so the the van idea of open broadcasting
happening on Facebook, there's so much sort of policy, with radio and what you can put out there and also think, do you think that it will mention the middle middle? Do you think there will be governance that these media companies like Facebook will have to start to?
Yeah, will either Facebook have to come to us or this you know, we we open ourselves up a little to be a little more,
less restrictive? And what we can do and say, I would think the latter more than the former. But
yeah, it has to happen at some point, the playing fields not even close to being level it's and this idea that Facebook is a platform and not and not a media company, and they edit to the Yeah, the algorithm is all about the Edit. It's edited to exactly what you're interested in. And and
so that that's, that's crazy.
Yeah, has to change at some point. And
you here in the US as well, like the biggest radio shows like this, the Howard Stern's, but there's even like Bobby bones who have all been wrapped up in FCC controversy. So what is the without becoming a nanny state? And, you know, censoring and things like that? What place do you think that government should play in the content that goes to public?
what role are they playing at the moment? So on my phone, I can have howard stern and Joe Rogan, Joe can use the C word and and can talk about essentially whatever he wants and how it can't. But they both look the same on my phone. So what, what's, what's going on?
Yeah, how does that work? Yeah. And so do you think that it's, it is, which one's going to move? Do you think which one's in the right position?
Well, it feels like, it feels like Facebook, and Twitter, certainly, and Instagram, are about to get some structure and rules around them, that they haven't had up until now. And it's at a government level, and you talk to anyone that knows about this. And it's it was always going to happen from a government level, essentially. You know,
these things are just too big and too unwieldy. And there has to be some structure around them, I think, yeah,
at some point, when you've finished being an employee, and went freelancing, what did that routine look like? And what was was your frame of mind day one? solo cry?
That's a good question. I had, I had a good conversation with Irene Hume, who was
worked at so Irene is now head of music at the hit network and had worked at NOVA and Ira and I think she might have been fired from Iran and had been out of the picture for about six months. And she said to me, and this is just in passing. It didn't, wouldn't. I wasn't working, but I still got up at 630. Every morning. Yeah. And I thought, okay, that's, that's an interesting point. And I like structure and ritual. So I got up early. And I, you know, I would train I would write, I mean, I had six months where I couldn't work in Australia anyway. So there was a period there, where I just had to sort of sit on my hands,
I said, Do you think that was a bit of a blessing to they give you a little bit of a get out of jail free
card to get your shit together? Possibly. I didn't feel like I had to get my shit together. I mean, it was, you know, the thing
was a big change, I guess it's a huge change where it's like,
I just assumed the phone's gonna ring.
I just was thinking my my fact you're relying on a landline right now
I've got too many more text message someone call me now. And it's funny because Marty talked about it on the podcast on the first interview, said, you know, the phone didn't ring for three years, Craig. And you know, he's, he's the number one drive host in Australia. And sometimes these things happen. And the phone didn't ring because there was no work that anyone could give me that I would have wanted to do anyway. But I just assumed that the phone would ring. And then I realized, okay, I'm just gonna have to go out and do my thing here. And, you know, thank God, I did. But, you know, I had to, you have to understand how, you know, 6570 hour work week where, you know, you're spinning so fast and so hard. And when that stops, you know, and you've had 10 years of it at pace, takes a long time for you to
find it. So interesting, the coping mechanisms of like, of that transition, because it's not like one of those things where it's, you know, my girlfriend worked at the company for four years, like the cycle in which people start companies is so much smaller now, for years felt like a big deal. And for her to decide to leave was probably took a year, it was probably, you know, in the third year, there was a whole year where she was thinking about it. So that whiplash of leaving, I can imagine, there's a bunch of personal work. Did you have to go to a therapist? Did you have to do any of that stuff?
No, I didn't. But it was all around ego. So you have to understand so when you when you resign, or when you leave in a job like that one you find blows up for a day, you know, all of these people saying nice things.
A guy Dobson, she's gone through the southern year, I can't believe how many text messages and whatever same for me. And then I'm just lot of
motivational quotes. And then 48 hours after the phone stops,
and everyone has moved on as they should.
Yeah, that's why good come through. That's a good recommendation. If someone leaves a job, white more than 48 hours. Yeah, that might two weeks have real? Real Catherine?
get out of the message war. Absolutely.
And send it two weeks later. So there's so then you go, Okay, that's no longer no longer happening. And and then coupled with. So I might send an email to someone on my new email address. And don't i don't get a reply for 24 hours. What the fuck? I mean, for 10 years, if I send an email to someone, they're going to reply straight away. Yes. It's me on the other end. Yeah. So understanding that, and I always felt like I had a fair understanding of the fact that it wasn't me. It was the title. So people were nice to me, because I had a title that meant that I could potentially move you from shepherd and into Melbourne. So he never does to me. He never
built his own.
But, but so I think I understood that but
when it when it actually happened? Yeah, it's it's really quite confronting the pic is now picking himself. And so I guess that's the transition. Right? Yeah. You. You've read a lot of Seth Godin stuff. Yes, I have. And, you know, he's sort of been the one vying for picking yourself for a long time, how much of that sort of the industries where you needing to be picked? Are they still in existence? Do you think it will run its course? Or they'll always be there in some capacity? Where there is someone at the top saying, and making the decision?
Yeah, that's a good question. I'm probably less than less moving forward. But you know, there will be from a mainstream media perspective, yes, there will be people like, like Lorne Michaels, and these sorts that will be there. The final decision maker, the kingmakers and the gatekeepers are the gatekeepers. Yeah, and you know, those gatekeepers are becoming less and less important that they, as we sort of move into a different phase. And that's not to say that, you know, it's interesting, you talk to people who I have these incredible followings on on Instagram and Twitter, and, you know, their goal is still a mainstream TV show, or I want to do mainstream radio, so there's still some appeal in it. But it's, yeah, it's part of a much broader, more interesting ecosystem than than 1015 years ago.
Do you think it's a result of more people having to pick themselves? They're becoming traction in people picking themselves finding success that it is sort of driving in this way? Or do you think it's landscape? You know, technology that shifting it all?
Yeah, and depends on what you're picking yourself for, as well. I mean, for us, you know, making content and, and content marketing is a natural place for us to play. And so, you know, if I'm, if I'm consulting to businesses that are not in media, I'm not going to do necessarily a podcast to sort of demonstrate what I'm capable of, but it made sense to, you know, have that as a sort of a lead to introduce other markets to what I could do. And same for you guys as well. I mean, you making content and you make content with with the company that you have. So it kind of it's a natural, sort of, I guess, progression to have this as a as an arm of
it. You mentioned the ego. What was your relationship with the ego a few years ago versus now?
Yeah, it's, I'm much more thick skinned around rejection. I sent an email to someone the other week, around an idea that I had and didn't get a reply that would have, you know, four years ago would have been Damn, you know, what am I doing wrong here. And now, it's like, I'm just, you know,
you got to have some irons in the fire, and you got to
So much more thick skinned.
But, you know, my skill set is much broader now, as well, ironically, I mean, I was really narrow around being a content director and a head of content and making decisions and no spaces. But, you know, this time has forced me, not forced me. But it's allowed me to think differently about content creation, and try to really understand it and empathize with it from the perspective of the performer. So, you know, if you think about the game changers podcast, it's now I don't know, 100 hours of one on one conversations with people that make content, it's unbelievably difficult to do the good ones make it sound easy, but it's incredibly confronting, and you vulnerable, when you're in that space of making something that is designed to make to make someone laugh, or designed to connect in some sort of unique way. And, you know, so I wanted to really try and understand it as best I could. And you can't do that when you're working 6070 hours a week, and you've got, you know, I don't know presentations, you make it to the board and 400 other executive functions across the course of a week. So I've had a chance to sort of sit down and really think about, you know, how I want to the role I can play as a as a coach and mentor for for talented people. So you
say it is a fun branding exercise for yourself. And the game changes.
just I guess your journey now.
Yeah, well, I mean, I was
always I loved the pointy end of it. I love the content creation part of it. I'm naturally creative. I love being give me a small room or whiteboard and three, four people with an open mind. And and we can, that's, that's me, we can't get our whiteboard up the
Essentially, can we write on this?
We actually have a currently in the garage, and we're working on a system, a pulley system so we can get it up onto
the floor. Yeah,
so slight mistake. So I love that. I mean, I love the creative process. I, at the end of the day on, I'm always constantly amazed at people that can communicate in a really effective way, whether it's through comedy or or commentary, whatever it might be. Because I'm not naturally that way. I'm stumbling and bumbling. And I kind of you know, have to sort of I'm a normal way through my sentences. And I hear people that are erudite and, and really clear, erudite, a
erudite, and, and I think to myself, wow, that's an unbelievable skill, you know, and so it does come from a place of, of respect, and and I'm really interested in, in then, you know, potentially helping people that haven't quite discovered that in themselves yet. And seeing if I can kind of, you know, encourage them to be more than than what they are
the, some of the things you may have helped the on air talent with, you know, some of the issues, they faced the confidence things. Do you think you faced any of those in in this new space?
Yeah, I, you know,
because I'd say you'd have like this hyper awareness to sort of understand what they are. Yeah, this is what
Yeah, and I'm really good at helping others and not great at listening to my own. But you know, that that's pretty standard.
If you could be your own coach was Seth talks about being a, you know, being your own CEO. And if you know, if a CEO talked to you the way you talk to yourself, your own mind, insect them sort of thing. And so yeah, I there are times where I think, you know, what am I doing here? Why, why am I doing more, but I think that's just part of who I am naturally, I'm not, I've never really been comfortable with just being in a space at any given time. It's always been about going okay, well, I'm here now. And can I keep getting better? Thank God, because I think the alternative is, is what people pass you by and you end up being obsolete, don't you? Yeah, high performance,
what is a high performer to you in this landscape?
So one of the great
quotes or metaphors that I've heard in and around the creative space is Tom Pappas, who's a who's a US comedian. And he talks about comedians who open the shop every day. And he said that, you know, you open the shop, and some days the shop, it's really busy, lots of customers, you make lots of money. And there are other day when you open the shop, and no one turns up. But good comedians go through the process of opening the shop and doing the work, I putting pen to paper and creating and writing. And I think that I could draw a through line with every single, High Performance Team and performer that I've seen along the way. And all of them open the shop, they all do the work. And the work
where you generate your, your energy and your confidence from and sometimes it's really hard. You know, sometimes you just you've got nothing to say and nothing good to do. But you've got to get that blank piece of paper out and to start showing up.
Yes. Showing up. We've opened up physical show.
The Daily talk show six. Yeah, that's a met. And we talked about this last time, and it's a massive commitment daily on the podcast.
That's I mean, I said, I thought about how maybe I could do the daily grind. Jason, I'm not ready for that.
What's your What's your relationship with money? Did it change from going from it employee? to working for yourself?
Yeah, I flew Jetstar to Melbourne today, which was awesome. versus being at the point in SCI. Look. My relationship with money, I don't really have one that's particularly healthy, to be honest, I,
I've always, you know, had a reasonable salary. And now I'm in a situation where, you know, I've got enough clients that I can be comfortable with whatever decisions I want to make. But
yeah, I'm probably I don't have any expenses really, other than if I'm flying to Canada, or New Zealand or South Africa that's taken care of from the client end of the spectrum. But there are occasions when I need to spend a little bit. Yeah.
Was it a big learning like going because I remember working in sci fi, and they would release like it? Because SCI is a publicly listed company. UTM he doubles on 850? k? fac, I'm getting 55 with.
And so did you? was it? Was it a shock? And do you look back and say, I should have done x, y and Zed? financially? Did you leave? When you left? radio? Was there a sense that you needed to get straight back into it? Or and work can
be Yeah. No, I didn't need to. Yeah, I'm married. And we have, you know, a good setup in terms of my wife's got an amazing business. So we're lucky in that respect.
And yeah, we owed a lot of money for a few years there. And we, but but I you know, I just don't I didn't never really thought too much about it. You know, the work was too all consuming to sort of, you know, yes, you could have nice holidays and, and have a nice house. But outside of that you never thinking when you're in that role. Yeah, there's a drummer in Sydney, cause battle leave, but because I'm earning a half.
I mean, it's neither here nor there. I mean, and when you get to that point, when you earn a lot, if if it's quite, you know, it really does your motivation becomes a little do I actually like doing this job? Or is it just about the money and it was always about the work we happy? You know,
I love the work.
I really did. I mean, we had some unbelievably difficult time. So we went, you know, we lost Colin, Jackie, I, you take that person?
Yeah, I did. Absolutely. I felt like I had to take it personally.
I mean, the reality is that it was a very different company with a chairman, you know, that didn't really understand media and a CEO who had a lot of pressure from a board that were expecting, you know, particular things, and it was a champion. Yeah, he wants to
sausage sizzle. Yeah,
lovely, man. Really good guy. And, but they, I mean, I wasn't involved in any of the college jack discussions, any of the negotiation. So that will put that on the table. There was no conversation between myself for Kyle or Andrew until Andrew Hawkins until the day that he was about to announce on the air I said, Are you sure can can we turn this around? But that was the only conversation I had. But I was head of content when Kyle Sandilands leaves are serious, and therefore it has to be my responsibility. And I said something the other day, you know, I wrote a letter. I never sent it. But you know, I was prepared to leave off the back of it. But
you know, had my mind changed. And I still struggle with it. I mean, I I'm not struggling. I don't I'm not rocking in a corner. But I it's not a it's not something you want to have next to your CV. Do you
think you took the fall for it?
unfairly? I don't know. I haven't thought I mean, I'm sure there would be lots of people that would go that guy that you're talking to right now. He's the one that fucked up SEO.
Well, you mentioned the way that you rated on radio today. You imagine it's you and Sandilands, in a room, he says how much you want to fuck off it goes all go to the other stage. She's saying, Give it a real fucking good guy.
Yeah, no, that that didn't even get close to happening. So I mean, I'm I'm part of an executive team, and that that decision was made whilst I was there. So and I, you know,
we put jewels into breakfast. And you know, when you're in that situation, you try and think positively about, okay, well, we can rebuild. And it was terrible. We just got absolutely great. So that was difficult. But I still loved the work, though. I still love the work. But yeah, it was a really tough time.
How do you when other people have made a decision for you? How as a leader, do you lead based on that where you might have a personal opinion that's different to the whole executive team?
Well, that was I mean, normally any decision that's made around content, I would be making that decision. So that the the unique situation there was that because it was a contract. And there was a breakdown in terms of terms and amount. That was at a higher level than mine, I had to kind of go with I had to be a part of the solution, not the not the contract negotiations, and my job was to go will find a show that can replace these guys. Yeah. And so there were very few content decisions, if any that I wasn't making on behalf of the company, there'd be times where we'd have to kind of compromise on some decisions, but most of them are mine. Did you ever did you ever speak to carlon? jack, after they transition?
in? Yeah, maybe even now like that you're not
going to call a lot since then. And, you know, time, I'm not sure how we haven't gone into the specifics of what he was thinking of what we were thinking. But, you know, we had a really good relationship up until the whole way through, to be honest. So there was never ever a problem with him personally, it was it was just a question of, you know, he's what he wants. And he's what we need as a company moving forward. Yeah,
I guess the hard thing is, it's the towing the company line on it versus your personal because you're mentioning you felt sort of, personally, were you personally affected based on the executives decision more than the actual carlon jack move?
Well, I mean, that the
where I was affected was, you know, we had a number one show that was delivering number one ratings to our biggest radio station. And my job was pretty easy was just to get the show on the air every day because they were they were so brilliant and are so brilliant at doing the rest. So it's gone from that to will now let's compete against them and start again. And it's a completely different model. And as you know, with radio the relationship if you've got it with your audience, they're going to move to wherever you go and as he had with his audience, so we're on a hiding to nothing right from the moment you know, we we parted ways.
But you had a Spice Girl,
I Spice Girl. That was I mean, it was just look thinking looking back now it was was just at a really difficult time. We were making these decisions in October, November.
But these third ideas, do you think like as in the the breakfast shows that you're bringing? I know that you probably got two three within the time three different shows? What you know, what was your thoughts around how you built out there ensemble?
Yeah, to compete against carlon jam, which is almost an impossible thing to do. So we thought, Okay, well, if it's a duo, the Carl and jack or July, then we have to do something that's different. So let's build an ensemble cast. Let's see if we can bring some big names to the show being Mel B, which was a disaster, Sophie and Jules were fantastic together and Merrick was, you know that there was a three hander potentially could have worked, we made it really messy to start with. And then once the narrative is created, which is two days, two days a loser carlon, Jackie are unbeatable, and you're screwed once that narrative is, is in play, which it was within, you know, at the end of the first survey was then, you know, just a question for everyone to sort of follow the bouncing ball on how bad can it
So surveys, what's what's your take on them? Because it seems like when people are doing well, surveys are the best fucking thing ever. When you're not doing well, surveys are rigged. And they bullshit. Yeah,
yeah. Well, you try and sit somewhere in the middle. So they're never as bad as they seem, and never as good as they see me there. And and I'm careful of rhetoric around, hey, we've just gone up two points. And therefore that must be because we had these amazing eight weeks. And yeah, I mean, it just doesn't work that way. I mean, radio habits, and then it is habit forming. They are ingrained. And if unless the format that you're listening to all the this show that you're listening to dramatically changes in some way, shape or form, you're not going to change that habit, because people don't think about radio, like we think about I mean, it's just background, it's a commodity.
I've had a friend who's just finished out working with a radio station in the sales capacity. And he used to say to me, selling air over here, like, in terms of what comes back? And what the sort of speeding to the clients in terms of numbers. And it's hard to quantify when you're not seeing numbers take over like a podcast or, you know, the analytics out there. It's not as rich. And so can you tell me what is in the surveys? How they get done? What do you like, you know, I don't really I'm not really across
it. Yeah, I mean, it would be a long and boring 15 minutes if you want to go there, Tommy. But essentially,
it was my first thought. Sorry.
Yeah, I mean, look at Part of the issue with with, with the way surveys are collated these days is that you've got people that are given a book, essentially. So by booking us to, to fill it out over a period of four weeks
is the 917 order book is Yeah.
And his opinion, he's a book, let's get these stickers on the book, the stations that you listened to. So if it's my daughter, it's Triple J, maybe hit one at seven and fresh FM. And whenever you're listening to a station, market, quarter hour, the book goes into the top drawer view, kitchen cupboard, you grab it, at the end of the week, when the guy knocks on the door and says if you filled out the book, throughout the book, you tick, tick, tick, make up a few numbers. Did you ever get centered? And that's not what everyone does. But for a lot of people.
in tech in tech, there's heaps of work around automating, like time working at how much people spend on things time management, and what is it called when you were filling out a form for time? What is what I'm sheets,
automating that because they worked out that I think was Deloitte said that was like, they were off by about 20 20%
if you do it manually. So there's a huge variance in what is actually happening, what might be unconscious and then becomes not necessarily just what comes through the speakers. But what fucking billboards? Of
course. So yeah, and what I remember from the week, so on Sunday afternoon, you get the knock at the door, you go Yeah, well, I'm I know, I listened to hit when I seven in the morning. So and I'm roughly in the car side, tick tick. And that's not to say that this information is wrong. It's normally based on, on on, you know, perception more so than I've got the book with me the whole time. And I've just listened for another corner, he's another tick. So there's partly that, but if you look at the numbers overall, they reflect where the radio stations are at generally, I mean, you have the stations that have larger audiences. So high acumen stations like Nova and the hit network and kiss, because they play songs on a higher rotation. So that's the date they have larger audiences. And then you have, you know, the am talk stations with longer listening, because you've got audiences that are, you know, traditional radio listeners that listen for longer periods of time. So it all makes sense. But you know, the process. I mean, the ppm process in the states isn't is a disaster. disaster. It's a nightmare. You know, you've got this, you're essentially you've got a little sound
of like a listening device,
click to you,
like a money belt type thing. Yeah. And you can imagine, you know, 15 to 20 or four year old females, can you wear this thing around here for the next eight weeks over summer? I don't think so. Right. 40 fit bits. So so if we were sitting here and I was wearing a ppm, people meter something, something people made it, and there was a radio playing that would that would pick up whatever radio was was on, it wouldn't be a session I was listening to I could walk into a shop and you know, smoothies playing and that's the station. I remember, I made got a on on top of these TV was this box and I said, What's that? And I remember the room was in these like a this guy came the front door and said, he plug it in putting the TV in it recorded? What he was watching what channel? Yeah, yeah. So there's a much better
from a content perspective, qualitative research. I remember when I was digital content for faith Angel Sam cab talking about benchmarks and the importance of benchmarks and how they go in qualitative sort of surveys, how much did you actually use qualitative research to determine what you did from a content perspective?
Well, I mean, it's a combination of a bunch of factors, I would take what the audience is saying. And I would try and merge that with what the performers are trying to do. And you would try and meet in the middle. So for me with shows, it's always a case of what try what what kind of radio show you're trying to make here. And how close are we to that. And then when you're making that show, let's see what the audience says about and let's see what resonates. And let's see what, what, what they're what they're connecting with. And let's do more of that and less of the rest. So I think if you just brought one form of research, which is that they say, x, y, Zed about us, and let's just yeah, it has to it's a creative process. And I just haven't seen any successful show
be successful on anything other than their own terms. And so you have to find out what those terms are. I mean, if we had asked Hamish and Andy to do heavier, real, authentic, kind of, you know, Primal content, they may have said yes, but it would have been the worst thing for them to do. They would they were, they were an escape show. They were just there for fun. And, and, and as a relief. You know,
so you've got to, you've got to find out what the performer wants as a starting point. And look, you can do that with really good successful shows that know what they're about. And then if you're developing a show, it's a case of going okay, well, let's hear what you can make. And let's see if we can kind of develop that into something.
Do you have a few favorite questions that you can check out at any team and get a gauge on how they going from if
they hate each other? From a team dynamic
point of view, but also from are they thinking about the right thing?
Yeah, I think I mentioned to you before we did, I said that the thing that I would do with this show, for instance, I would do the people marketing model. So people position product design promotion, and you can use this with whatever product you're taking the market, whether it's a radio show, or podcast, or an created a new sneaker, who is the audience? Where are we positioned in the market? What do we do that is unique to our show? And then how do we promote ourselves? And and and obviously, you can, you can have as many as much detail as you can around those four elements. But it's the starting point. It's the it's, you know, are we on the same page, there's the page the pages, he's our audience. He's He's where we position so carlon, Jackie O breakfast with the stars, their celebrity focus there that so that was our starting point. So everything went through that filter? How do we reflect that in the product of the show? Or do pop quiz twice a morning will do Jackie's own new three times a morning, we'll talk to the biggest stars that that can, then how do we promote ourselves? Well, obviously, if you're with a big media company, you've got TV and billboards, but what are we doing on social media? So that idea is a really good starting point. It's a really good way to go. And you could do that with this show. So who's your audience? And if you if you're saying, Well, I think it's a 25 to 44 year old male, and they're in this headspace, and you're thinking something else, then, you know, sort of Shut up.
What I really love, though, is,
it's, I mean, you could do that at the very start of anything. You could work at it for business, what's the mission? What's your vision? What's your values? Opening the shop, though, gets you to a point where stuff becomes more clear. And I feel like if we were to do the people p now, we've got so much data, and I was listening to your episode with Christian how much I loved. And what I love about Christian is he's got this part where you know, he's he's so talented, he, but he also says, I don't know how this is, you know,
the tiny things that the universe I think it's a universal thing. When you speak to Hamish and there's there is a an indescribable thing that all these people have, which would have sat down with him and like, Yeah, but seriously, what it can I know that you've got the stick, like it almost plays into and, and there's also the other side of it, which is, even though it looks seamless for all these people, like you see, like, I remember making a short film on Christian how and
seeing how he,
he would say, I don't care about all this sort of stuff, or these things don't concern me. But then when it came to publishing, he taught me so much in the social media thing of just like it wasn't even necessarily on his radar. But it was just odd. This is what I do we need to post it this way. You should be using this link out that way. Yeah.
So what is it? Is there some sort of magic that is out there that we can understand that we can't describe?
I think it's trial and error. I really do. I think you've got a as Christian said, You've just gotta stop making stuff and see what works for you. And you know, that talk about questions you would ask of individuals and of shows, you know, skills are transferable knowledge is something that you build up over time and through experience, but talent is a night, you know, whatever it is that you have, you're going to have more of it, the older you get, so you better work out what that is. So for me as a young radio person, I worked out that I was I was pretty good from a creative perspective. So I use that as the single sort of
bullet point for my work, both on the air and then as an assistant content director, and then out into programming. I and I, I really played to that forehand. And so, you know, through trial and error, you've got to work out what it is that you have that is unique to your own skill set. And that that talent element, you know, if you're naturally curious, or if you're a and you see it in people, some people are just, some people are innately curious. Some people are innately competitive, some people, you know, someone like a car, Sandilands just has this gift of the gab is fast on his feet. So how do we use that in a way that's useful? with whatever platform you're using to promote yourself
from your chat with Christian? You know, there's, there might be a piece that he's not identifying that thing happening? You know, he's showing up. Can you see, Christian, do you think you could analyze do the people pay and actually have make some sense of it all?
Yeah, I think so. Well, and and I think once you've made sense of it, Yes, I do. And I think he's made sense of it. He just has a way of I think it's part of his persona is to kind of downplay how it's working for him. But I mean, if you look at his scenario, it's, it's, you know, he's got a live show that's working. And he's got a book coming out, he's got a podcast with numbers that between the three of us we would, you know, give our left arms for. So he's unbelievably successful, but I think he's putting it through the filter of, you know, I'm kind of making this up as I go. I think that's a persona. Yeah. It's more relatable.
Well, it's also Yeah, I think that there really is also a lot of unknown to it as well. Do you ever call radio stations you ever wanted
Yeah, yeah. Don't you prize big Craig? No, no, no.
As a kid, I was a sports show in Adelaide that I would ring as a young lad. And, and then it was a night show that I would ring and get my favorite song. But no, I haven't run the radio station for years when you listen to radio without having the content mind on and deconstructing it more so now, my relationship with radio is different to what it was a few years ago, I'm much more dispassionate about the work than I was, and and I'm a much better programmer because of it. So with that dispassion, comes objectivity, which is the number one thing I can bring to any show is, you know, when you're in working on a product or programming a product, you're you're wanting it to sound a particular way, you're hoping for the best it's like a you know, it's like a child that you're wanting the best. It does it sound this way, I hope it does. And I can come into any situation, you know, from a in my role now and and listen to it more objectively, so,
so detached, that's why I think the power is in what you're doing now, like you've there's, anyone can be detached, but being attached to something for so long, being in those teams to now be out of it too, then I think that's like a superpower. Yeah, possibly. I mean, and I,
I find myself emotionally attaching to shows that I work with, it's hard not to, it's hard not to, you know, end up rooting for the people that you're helping. And, and but that changes the way you hear things and the more emotionally attached you become, the less helpful you are. So what they're wanting, I think when I say they, from an audio presenter is they just want someone that can
that can kind of clear the air and help make sense of what they do. Am I on the right track here? Yeah. And
yeah, that I think that's, that's certainly part of what I do with the the roles that you have with, say, your Canadian clients and things like that, what does that actually look like? You're going on Google Hangouts and chatting to them to go actually, you know, into the radio station?
Yeah. Well, I go to Canada, and on a, you know, a couple times a year, you and the rest of the time it's on Skype or or so you know, look, the only problem with Canada is their breakfast shows happen at two o'clock.
So it's that sleep for four hours get up at two. So was
it how regular Are you chatting to them?
Well, I've got maybe eight shows that I that I coach in candidates. So weekly, fortnightly? Yeah, essentially rotating around the Do you listen to all of their content? Yeah. So I have a platform where I can listen whenever I want. So I don't have to I can What is that? called? radio monitors? Ah, yeah, they have that.
Fantastic. So combat getting a log here. What do you have to do to get one? Well, you have to you have to pay, like a license and I can buy some other stuff. Right?
Right. Yeah. All
so much for coming on, man. No worries at all. I love you know, a couple of radio heads. You know, we both worked in this environment or in the radio environment. And you know, it looked up to you and what you're doing Thank you. It's really nice that you're showing support to create is like a that are taking a chance. Yeah, but
what I said to you before the weekend before coming on the podcast the other week, are you guys coming on mine? It's I just think it's fantastic. What you're doing and, and I think that spirit of inventiveness and and just getting out there and making stuff and seeing where that might lead is is only good can come from we're open for business.
Yeah. And Craig's podcast game changes.
You were speaking just with talent on air talent, but it's now broadened out to
Yeah, a different time. It's a bit more Industry Focus now. And hopefully, it'll it'll be an audio podcast as it continues to evolve. And, yeah, I think it's certainly been helpful to young radio people. And you know, there's some fantastic interviews there that that I'm sure you'll find something interesting in if you're into radio.
Perfect. Thanks for coming on, Craig. It's a daily talk show. I the daily talk. show.com is our email address if you want to send us an email, otherwise, and before I go, I say it on Friday. We had two big announcements. One of the announcements was the new studio. Yeah. The second announcement, which I didn't know what your announcement was going to be. So I overbanked. It was it I was getting a haircut.
bro. No hair cut on the weekend. But I will be getting one Monday, this afternoon. So anyway, I know you're wondering about that too, though. It's okay. We'll say tomorrow.