Craig Bruce Changed The Game

Tommy: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 335, and we've got a special guest in our brand spanking new studio, Craig Bruce.

Craig: Hey, how are you? Did you get my name right?

Josh: I pretty much butchered that. Bruce. I love that you're taking the piss out of how Tommy talks because every time I do it, Tommy brings it back to my childhood and my mum every time she was sort of putting me down on how I said words. Craig Bruce. Craig Bruce.

Craig: Craig Bruce, welcome. It's my My name is actually a problem because, you know, I've got the two first names and I take it for granted now, but whenever I go anywhere, if I'm checking into a hotel or whatever, I do the same thing every time, which is Bruce is the surname, B-R-U-C-E. You kind of have to say it because people just assume. Yeah, Bruce or Craig, or which way is it?

Tommy: The one phoner I never did, but I— it was like the first idea when I got to Shepparton was stemmed from your name. Who has two first names in their name?

Josh: Did you send it? I didn't do it. I was probably a bit scared.

Tommy: I mean, you were— that That was the— so when I was in Shepparton, you were—

Craig: I was king of the world.

Tommy: That was a peak. That was the peak of your career, could you say?

Craig: Yeah, peak Bruce, that was.

Tommy: Peak of the commercial space.

Craig: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, well, the— I'd been in the role head of content at Austereo for a year, and then the merge happened. And I think that's when— so the merger happened with Southern Cross, which had a bunch of regional stations, and we had the metro stations, and the company came together. So I think you came on board after that, obviously, because we weren't dealing with any regional stations at that time.

Tommy: 2013. That's when I came at the wrong time is what you're saying.

Craig: Yeah, it's all about timing.

Josh: I feel like I always push back. Like Tommy's got a way with words. So like, like when he speaks with people, like saying the peak of your career, the peak of your career.

Tommy: I made sure I said commercial career in terms of you're in a different space now.

Josh: But the thing is, no, because I see this like I seriously do. I'm not just fucking blowing smoke up your ass right now. I think is like the most exciting time, which is the uh, combining, or the, the hybrid of all that experience of in that management level to now being able to almost like, you know, bring it to the world and bring it to younger talent. Do you feel, do you feel that transition?

Craig: Yeah, well, um, I, I kicked and screamed the whole way through the process in terms of I, um, and I think I may have talked to you about this before, I mean, I was just institutionalised at Austereo and SCA. I was a young kid when I started there at 18 and left when I was 48. So 30 years, essentially all of my adult life with this company.

Tommy: All that comes to mind for me is 3 lots of annual leave or long service. Sorry, long service leave.

Craig: Yeah, because no, I speak payo.

Josh: Plus I bet you, I could imagine you're the type of guy who would have used his SCA email for everything.

Craig: You didn't even have your own personal email. I had nothing other than my SCA persona. So it took me 6 months to really shed that skin. A long time. Time, maybe longer, 12 months. And I really had all of these people that I worked with, um, who I had work connections with, um, that looked like friendships 9 to 5, but they were really just great work friendships. And there's a difference between the two. So, you know, you end up leaving a company and, um, yeah, I was really lonely.

Tommy: Do you feel the pressure of it being like a, uh, what is it, a second, uh, dance? It's the, the second act, you know, for a second album. Second album. You've come out of the commercial space, you're entering into a new landscape and you're like, what I have to do has to be good. And that's probably self-imposed pressure people put on themselves.

Josh: And you've left the band.

Craig: Yeah. Well, I, if someone had offered me a full-time job doing what I had previously done, I would have taken it. So, and thank God it didn't happen because I think I'm further down the track in terms of just creating some other opportunities for myself. But you know, at the time I just wanted the phone to ring and for me to be able to 'Put some pants on and get back to work,' you know. So when I did, I wanted to wear— when can I get to wear jeans and a shirt and be in an office again? That was weird, you know.

Tommy: It was a comfort after 30 years, I'd say.

Craig: Well, because when you're in that type of job, the, the world revolves around you in lots of ways, and, and depending on how you deal with that. And I enjoyed being able to help people and solve problems, whether they were professional or personal. And yeah, and all of my Um, persona was wrapped up in that, so it took a long time to work my way through it. Um, and yeah, I guess, what is it now, almost 4 years? I mean, the podcast has been really helpful, but I think it was actually Jules Lund gave me the best advice I had.

Tommy: He's given a lot of people advice. Is people asking for it from him, or he just comes in, goes, Brucey, here's a piece of advice?

Craig: Yeah, he— so Sam and, uh, and Jules took me out. Sam Kavanaugh, um, who's a great friend. So Sam's a great friend, and, and Jules is, is someone that, um I'm really close with. And so they had a sort of a, you know, wrap-up dinner a couple of weeks after I finished up.

Josh: And where did you go?

Craig: We went to a Mexican restaurant at the back of, um, on St. Kilda. What's the, what's the drag on?

Josh: Oh yeah, yeah, Ackland Street.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, little one around.

Josh: I like that.

Tommy: It's near my house.

Josh: The one that closed down? Is it blue?

Tommy: No, Radio Mexico. Okay.

Josh: Um, but I was just saying, was it Tex-Mex or Fresh Mex?

Tommy: Imagine if Jules used the Nando's card to take Brucey out for dinner.

Craig: Yeah, that's it. You're only having 8 of those thighs that great night. 12 or 16 of them. Um, so he said, uh, do you, um, you gotta write down what you know and, um, you just put pen to paper and start writing. Uh, and, um, and I did.

Tommy: I—

Craig: so I started blogging, not necessarily for any other reason than just to make sure that I could kind of collect my thoughts and sort of get some structure around, uh, some of the IP that I had and some of my thoughts on, on what I might do next and, you know, lessons along the way. And so that was a starting point. Um, and actually the, the client that I have in Canada, um, it's the consulting works really hard. It looks exciting and it is, the actual work's amazing, but to get a new client is unbelievably difficult, you know. You, and you guys would know this having your own business, it's really hard to find clients. Um, and it normally starts from, do you have a relationship with the either the head of content or the CEO? It's, it's, it's based on relationships. And so I had written a blog about The Fugitive, which was a radio concept from years ago that we developed in Adelaide. And I wrote about, you know, how the idea was developed and it started, you know, as this tiny acorn seed of an idea and how it became this really amazing contest. And I got an email a couple of days later, so I published it, and a couple of days later I got an email from Steve Jones in Canada, and the title of the email was, uh, so now I know who I can thank for The Fugitive, which was so because they had been doing it in Canada for X number of years, he said, oh, it's really interesting to hear the, the storey behind it. And he said, um, it's funny, I've got a, a role coming up shortly, you know, would you be interested? So that, um, sort of that one thing leading to another, um, but, and, and I don't write or podcast to, um, to, to get new clients. I do it for other reasons. But that certainly was one example of here's some content that resonated and, and I built a connection through it.

Josh: So What did you learn about relationships when you left SEA?

Craig: Well, I learned, that's a great question. I didn't work nearly hard enough at external relationships. I mean, I was really good at internal SEA relationships, but I didn't work nearly hard enough from an industry perspective.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Because I just didn't value the idea of having to, I'm not a networker, I'm a natural introvert. I have, you know, small group of friends. I don't like being in, you know, spaces where there's people I don't know.

Tommy: How's this one?

Craig: This is fine.

Tommy: This is all right. This is exactly what about Mr. 97 years old?

Craig: I'm still getting to know him. I might have a conversation with him.

Josh: I feel like I'm very similar in that regard. Just like keeping the circle small. Yeah, that's the thing. But it also can, I guess, on the flip side, turn into isolation when the few friends that you have are all doing their thing at SEA and then, you know, you're at home.

Craig: Well, the reality was I, because I didn't have a connection with the CEOs at ARN and Nova, you know, you're kind of starting from scratch. In terms of the role I was doing previously, there was really— it was essentially, yeah, I'm here on my own and starting again virtually.

Tommy: And Craig, I've always wondered who is responsible, and is there one person, and was it you, that could pick a talent, could actually say, I want them to be on the radio?

Craig: Um, depends on the, the situation and, and, um, you know, where that person's at in their career. If they're brand new starting out and you can hear, um, you can hear something that's, you know, underdeveloped but there's, there's some raw material to play with, um, then yeah, that's a combination of, uh, either myself or, you know, when I was at SCA, Guy Dobson or Dave Cameron or Sam Kavanaugh. And sometimes, um, you know, we would have debates around, you know, whether a particular person might be as good as someone else thinks they are. But normally you can hear something, and as a programmer, most programmers can kind of hear potential.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: And then it's a question of, you know, what happens from there. So, but that was my role. And so right now, you know, Duncan at ARN, Paul Jackson at Nova, Gemma on the Hit Network, and Fitzie on Triple M are the gatekeepers of who moves up the chain.

Tommy: It was always like, maybe it's jaded radio people, but as soon as a new talent or someone who has been around for a long time gets put into a role, it's like you can— it's easy to jump to the why would you put them on? But there's also a lot of pressure for you, right? Yeah. Like, are you feeling like, shit, this has to work?

Craig: Um, I never had— I never felt that kind of pressure. There would have been a heap on me at the time, but I never felt it. I sort of compartmentalised that part of the work. Um, you just The funny thing with it is that, um, from, from a content perspective, from a programmer's point of view, you want every show to be successful. So whilst it on the outside looking in, it looks like it's a, it's, it's a flaky job being a breakfast host, and you know, there's so much at stake and so much risk involved, but what we want is the same as what the performer wants, which is a long successful career. You know, when we put a show together, and when anyone puts a show together, it's based on, okay, let's hope this is around in 8 years from now and let's do everything we can to make sure that that's the case. And that obviously doesn't happen all the time, but it's like any industry. I mean, I think it's, it's all needles in haystacks at the end of the day, particularly when you're talking about incredibly talented shows that can change the trajectory of a company like Hamish Nandi did for, for Austereo. They come along once in a blue moon and you've got to be ready for them. And they never look or sound like what they end up being. And that then comes down to, well, who are you surrounding them with and what kind of people have you got around the show as it develops and as it finds its feet? And that's where the, I guess, the art and science come together.

Tommy: Was the Hamish and Andy thing when they, when you sort of first met them, was there that feeling of, I could be onto something here, or was it—

Josh: And what was a reference point? What were Hamish and Andy going to be.

Craig: Yeah, you know, well, so the storey is that, um, so Jules Lund had won a radio contest being 15 Days of Fame on Fox, um, and I was working at Fox as assistant content director. Um, I brought the idea from Adelaide and we used it at Fox. And so Jules won this concept of being on the radio for 15 days and, and, um, having a sense and experience of what it's like to be famous for 15 days.

Tommy: So year 8, driving to school every day, Tracy and Matt.

Craig: Okay, right.

Tommy: I listened every day.

Josh: Yes.

Craig: And he was a mate, as you can You can imagine he just, he did the role brilliantly. He was an incredible kind of, I mean, he's just the perfect fit for that idea.

Tommy: Was he giving you advice at that point?

Craig: Well, it's funny you should say, but he, so bearing in mind, so he's a nobody at that point. He's just a listener who's registered for the idea. And it just so happened that because I was working on the concept in my role as assistant content director, which was essentially to bring the thing together.

Josh: Were you in Melbourne at this time?

Craig: Melbourne, yeah.

Josh: 'Cause you spent a lot of, like, you, did you grow up in Adelaide?

Craig: Grew up in Adelaide, born and bred, yeah.

Josh: And so— I had, I mean, I've lived in Melbourne.

Craig: On and off for 4 or 5 years in Brisbane and Perth and Gold Coast. So I've lived everywhere, but Adelaide's sort of home base.

Josh: So non-radio people, it is very common practise for people just to move around, right?

Craig: Pack your stuff, you're off to Perth or wherever you might be, or off to Shepparton.

Josh: So you were in Melbourne at the time, you're in Melbourne at the time, Jules has the 15 days of fame.

Craig: So we worked together for 15 days and I Immediately liked him as soon as I met him. He's just an awesome guy, and, and we had a— and, and he's my type of person. I, um, because I'm introverted, I get my energy from, um, from myself but also from others that, that, um, he inspires me. He always has. So, um, and during conversations in and around these 15 days, he would tell me about these trips that he would go on overseas with his mates, and they'd get themselves on talk shows and they'd do all these crazy fucking things. And he said, in passing, actually one of them's— they're actually— they have a radio show, um, at the local uni. And I said, well, we need to meet them. Who are these people? So I don't know, a week later or whatever, these three tall lanky kids walk into Brian Ford, who was the programme director's office at Fox FM. So it was Ryan, Hamish, and Andy, uh, and they sat down and we talked to them and, and, you know, what are you doing and what are you up to? And then we took them into the studio. And because I was still on the air at that time, an assistant content director, I was the anchor of the little pilot show that we did.

Josh: You could have been Cackling Craig.

Craig: I could have been Cackling Craig, which would have worked so much better in terms of the alliteration. And so there I am. And of, you know, 1019 The Fox, it's Hamish and Ryan, I guess we called it. And they started speaking. And Hamish is doing what Hamish does, and my jaw is on the desk going, who the hell? This guy's unbelievable. I mean, they were incredible, the three of them together, as you know. And but what was it?

Tommy: They didn't do what I did, insult Craig in the first 3 seconds.

Craig: No, they didn't do a joke about my name.

Josh: Yeah. What was the actual— can you sort of describe?

Craig: Oh, well, it's, I guess, what you hear with Hamish, just an incredible wit, just so fast on his feet and just away with the language. And that's not, uh, I mean, I heard Hamish first, and obviously Andy's as critical. They can't do the show without each other, but that's what I heard.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And, um, so I walked out of the studio down to the first floor where the executives, the national executives, were, and a guy called Geoff Ellis, who's a great mentor and friend, and I went into his office and I said, mate, I don't know how much you've got in terms of, um, you know, I knew they were warehousing talent and and had some content budgets for developing talent. I said, you just got to put it all on black. You just get these guys on the air. And look, that said, that is the story. But, but, you know, and I played it like a 1% role. Brian Ford was content director and was key to getting them on the air and into situations. Obviously, Sam Kavanaugh came into the mix and then they did all of the work themselves. But And we had 5 years with them in off-Broadway shows. I mean, they didn't go from 0 to 100 in 5 minutes. They worked really hard over a long period of time. And, and even when we had them ready to go, we held them back for another 6 to 12 months. Um, you know, they did Drive in Melbourne before they did the national show. Um, so that was a lesson in, um, you know, working with them and developing them and having them absolutely primed and ready.

Tommy: And how much do you bring that down to luck? Because you could push back on luck and say, no, I at that time was on the hunt. I'd been doing the work trying to identify who's talented.

Craig: Oh well, that was just, um, happenstance. That was luck that we— and we didn't know that we would need Hamish Nandy like we did in a few years from, from that point because, you know, Nova had just launched and Nova, you know, ended up, you know, absolutely towelling us in every market. You know, they were the younger, cooler, hipper brand, and just in every single market wherever they launched, they beat us essentially.

Josh: They had a mascot that worked in festivals better than a fox. Did you ever have a costume, like a fox costume?

Craig: I wore the fox costume at a basketball—

Tommy: Mate, I've been in a fox costume.

Craig: Yeah, it's pretty hot in there, isn't it?

Tommy: It's horrible, Craig.

Josh: Have they completely discontinued the fox?

Craig: Like, yeah, I think so. Well, there's the Fox suit, doesn't exist anymore.

Tommy: Well, I don't know, I hope it doesn't. I was burnt. It's stunning. Every sweaty street teamer was in that thing.

Josh: Jules Lund probably has it. He's got quite a good collection of costumes in general.

Craig: Jesus.

Josh: Um, you, you mentioned, uh, you held them back. You had, um, held H&A and Ryan at the time, uh, back a bit. Or I'm guessing at that point it was, um, just James.

Craig: I think Ryan made an early call pretty, pretty well from the start.

Josh: And so The holding the back, is that a common thing that you think that you have to do? A talent pushing harder and you're having to pull?

Craig: Yes, that's absolutely true. I think that most, you know, presenters are, you know, really good presenters are always in a hurry and probably, you know, want to get to wherever it is they want to go faster than we would necessarily think is a good thing for them to do.

Josh: What's the risk, do you think?

Craig: Well, just not being ready for a big stage. So, you know, and in 2001 to '05, I mean, American Rosso were the preeminent male comedy duo. Young, handsome, funny. And for us, you know, we're developing Hamish and Andy and thinking kind of it could almost be a bit of a Me Too thing if we're not careful. As in, you know, here's our version of American Rosso. Not that we ever thought of it like that, but we didn't want that for them. We didn't want that comparison.

Tommy: Just to be clear, Hamish and Andy were never caught up in a Me Too.

Josh: You can't say Me Too anymore, Benny. Hashtag 2019.

Craig: So yeah, we— but, you know, you could just hear them evolve and we would just give them more and more opportunities. And I think the thing with, with them was that they were just so open to— it was a collaborative approach, you know, let's see if we can do more in this area or let's put you into this show for, for a period of time. And they were just really open to the experience and open, as you know, they're, you know, they're very, they're It's about, you know, they're happy to take feedback and they're interested in abundance, right? You can get good from wherever you can take that information from.

Tommy: I just love that sort of group of friends. It's amazing that you've got Ryan Shelton, Hamish Blake, Andy Lee, Jules Lund, Whipper. Whipper, yeah. Katie Diamond, Sam Cavill. It's amazing that it's just this, and they're actually friends from a very long time ago and they've just risen in this?

Craig: Well, they're kind of— it's, it's the degeneration of our generation, right? It's, you know, it's the Mick and Tony and, and Tom and, uh, and, and Rob. You know, they had that collective, and, and Hamish and Andy and friends, they all share a very similar worldview. And, um, you know, they were just— it was an amazing time. We would often— I would talk to Dave Cameron often about the, the idea of just, um, just to take a moment to realise what's happening, not, not to us, but just being able to experience what was happening for them and being close to it. Yeah, because it was— we knew something really special was happening, and because they were so gracious and, um, uh, you know, they were just so open to, to everyone being a part of it, it was such a great experience for us all. So yeah, what was it—

Josh: what was your morning routine like going back 15 years? Because I love nostalgia, and I, I think like 15 years ago isn't even the '90s now, but going back that far, what was your life like? What were you doing in the mornings? What was your day back then?

Craig: Well, I had younger kids then, so Tommy will tell you what that's like in the morning. It's hell. It's like, get me out of the house.

Tommy: They run your morning routine. Yeah, they do.

Craig: I would, I mean, I always try and get into work early because I just feel like I can get more done before other people sort of turn up. Um, you know, normal routine depending on if I was running a radio station, it's to listen to the breakfast show so you can have some feedback ready for them after the show.

Josh: Did you always live close by to the studio? Would you drive in?

Craig: Would you walk? Um, I would drive in. No, I guess when I'm— I mean, in Adelaide everything's only ever 10-15 minutes away, you know, you're never far from anything in Adelaide. Um, in Melbourne when I was here, we lived down in Beaumaris, so sort of a 30-minute drive in and you'd sort of catch a couple of breakfast shows. But yeah, as a programmer, you know, your morning job is to listen to the breakfast show and to have something ready for them at 9 o'clock to, you know, help them or give them some feedback.

Tommy: And so that was what's called an air check.

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: Is that— was that—

Craig: were you doing that?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: I mean, look, the air cheque's changed a bit over the years, not necessarily in a good way or necessarily, you know, depending on the show. This idea that you need to play audio to teams that are well and truly developed and most shows will know if they, you know, particularly if they're, if they've been around for a while, will know if they've had a good break or a good day. Uh, and you don't need to go and grab the audio to, to make a point of it. But if you're developing a new show, then sometimes you'll need more— not sometimes, often you'll need to play them content just to give them a sense of where they're at. Um, so yeah, depending on the quality of the show, it might just be a case of— I mean, I just try to— my thing was always my reaction to content that worked, and then just try and see if I can find or help them find ways to do more of that type of content.

Tommy: Success leaves trails.

Craig: So yeah, it's that replay idea of going, okay, well, that, that worked really well and that's you at your best and let's see if we can do more of, of that. That's really it. And as, because as a performer and I'd had many years on the air, that, that always resonated for me. I just needed to know when I was in the, in the zone and what was working for me and, and You know, the little things that I couldn't do as well became less of an issue when you focus on your strengths.

Tommy: Yeah, so they're saying there's no original idea. 15 years ago, was there original ideas happening in radio? The things you might see today that were mimicked but were invented back then? I know you mentioned The Fugitive.

Craig: Yeah, and even The Fugitive is a, is a, an offshoot of an old idea. I mean, Hamish Nandy had 100 genuinely unique ideas. No, no, it's I— today's not just about them, but they did have a lot of really unique concepts. Um, I think, uh, I mean, that to me is at the heart of it. Um, when you're creating content, it's, it's about the idea and the angle, particularly when you're playing, um, you know, in breakfast radio with the big stories. Most shows are going to land on the same storey at the same time, and then it just comes down to the approach and, and how you attack it and what the angle is. And You know, the good shows— I heard this, this idea of the third thought. Have you heard of the—

Josh: no.

Craig: So a guy called Del Close, who's an improv comedy legend and did a lot of work with the SNL guys back in the '80s and '90s, and Adam McKay on a podcast a couple of months ago was talking about this. So his theory was, uh, so from an improv perspective, you have the first thought in improv, which tends to be a bit knee-jerk and a bit reactive and and instinctive. And what he would do as an improv coach was to force the performer into the second and then into the third thought. And he's— the idea being that that third thought is where the richness of the idea tends to sort of to come out. And so from a— when I heard him talk about that, I thought about that from a radio perspective. And a lot of breakfast shows sit in that first thought paradigm, which is here's a topic, let's do a phoner on it, or here's a topic, I'll do a rave about it, or here's a topic, let me get a guest. And the good shows are the ones that can go, um, let's sit uncomfortably in that first thought and is there anything else we can do? And then that second and third thought comes from that. It's practise around that, but it can work.

Tommy: What's your third thought on what we're doing in, you know, the podcast space in comparison to sort of the, the shows that you saw coming up up in radio landscape.

Craig: Well, I mean, I guess my third thought around this show would be how it's, it's how narrow can you make the brief and how, how specific can you— I mean, there is no longer tail than in podcasting right now, is there? I mean, it's just, it's like opinions and assholes, everyone's got one. Podcasting and opinions are the same, aren't they? Feels like everyone's got one, especially Mr. 97.

Josh: Yeah, a lot of opinions.

Craig: If I was, if I was programming this show, I'd be saying, how narrow can we make the brief and how clear are you on, on where you want to take this thing? And can you be a catch-all, all things to all people interview show, or do you need to narrow the brief? And then we would sit in uncomfortable silence as we work our way through that. The first reaction might be, no, we're in exactly the right spot. And you might do some work around, okay, well, what else could it become or what might it develop into? And that's the process that I like to work towards.

Josh: What does mainstream mean, do you think, in 2019?

Craig: Well, I don't think— I mean, mainstream doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. I mean, it's all narrowcast, isn't it, really? There's broadcast and narrowcast. And I mean, I love where media is at right now. I know it's hard for lots of people and it doesn't feel like there are as many opportunities potentially, maybe not in my industry, but As a consumer, you know, I'm interested in politics, religion, philosophy, and I can get all of that just right here. Exactly what I'm interested in. And I love that. I can, you know, I've got 3 or 4 hours in every day where I'm either out walking or I'm in the gym or whatever, and I'm just filling my head with stuff that I'm really interested in.

Tommy: Is that a flex that you're in the gym for 3 hours? 3 to 4 hours?

Craig: Well, no, I'm either walking the dogs or I'm I'm in the gym or I'm in the garden or whatever.

Tommy: No, there is that time where we can fill it with a podcast.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: So, um, I mean, I love where it's at right now. I, I— and look, there's always downsides to it. I, I worry that you can, you can have a media diet that is so, you know, biassed and so focused on the things that you believe that you miss opportunities to kind of broaden your mind a little. I listen to Ben Shapiro most days, not because I'm right-leaning in my politics, it's— but I feel like I've got to get some other side of the story.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: With what's happening in the States, and he seems to be about the best out of all of the conservative commentary that at least will call a spade a spade around Trump. So that, you know, there's downsides to all of that, but I love where it's sitting at the minute.

Tommy: What about when you were sort of at that 15 years ago? What were you listening to outside the shows you were working with? I mean, there wasn't access to podcasts.

Craig: No, I mean, I was listening to radio. I was literally not listening to anything other than radio, but that was my job. I was being— yeah, I mean, I listen to radio. I compartmentalise my radio listening. I listen to a lot of radio with the companies that I work for, but when I'm not, you know, in my own time, I listen to what I'm interested in. And I think that's the difference now where, you know, 15 years ago you either had to wait for that show on Sunday afternoon on ABC or whatever it might be, or you had to buy that book, or you had to wait for wait for that speaker to come to Australia or whatever. But now it's, it's all there. And, and I think, you know, for, for you guys, um, you know, what would you have done 7 or 8 years ago? You know, you finish at Shepparton and it's like, okay, well, what am I going to use? What's my platform for self-expression? And how am I going to do that? And, you know, today there's 100 ways you can get to that end result.

Tommy: I didn't think it was podcasting. I didn't think I'd be doing this after radio. I wasn't on my radar as much.

Josh: I think part of it too is for me, having seen where podcasting was in 2005, it feels like it had peaked in this weird way. Like it sort of—

Tommy: if—

Josh: and it's what I've learned is that it's— it like, it takes about 3 false peaks before you actually get to something. And so I think that that, that's been a learning, which is like, just because something's not taking the first time it might be too early for the actual public.

Craig: Well, I mean, you talked before about mainstream, um, and I haven't— doing an interview with Larry Rosen who runs a research company out of the States, and next week on the podcast, and, uh, um, you know, from a mainstream perspective, um, the actual awareness of podcasting just as a platform is, is really only starting to grow now into the 50s and 60%. So there's a whole portion of audience out there that don't even know that that this exists on your phone.

Josh: Do you think that the cash will ever transition from radio to, say, podcasting and new media? Or does radio have a special source that is the mainstream bit that means that you can pay talent $1 million a year?

Craig: Yeah, well, I think it's going to hold for a period of time. For how long, it's hard to know. But I mean, I think the connected car is going to have a lot to do with it. It's, it's a, you know, people are talking about you know, the smart speakers and that being, you know, the saviour of radio. Finally there's a radio back in people's homes again, but which is one way to look at it. And my view would be, well, yes, that's a frictionless experience to find the radio in your home, but it's just as easy to go and find Spotify or anything that you're interested in from a streaming perspective. And, you know, as, as, you know, cars become not more connected, they are already connected, but as people buy new cars and upgrade their cars, you know, it's, I'm one button away from whatever podcast I want to listen to. I I can bypass the radio in my car. So that was the last bastion in terms of a place of listening that radio has had a hold on for a long, long period of time. And that will change over. But because the change is not, it feels revolutionary, but it's slow enough for, I think, for people to kind of get their heads around, okay, how do we need to adjust and pivot?

Tommy: Mr. 97, he's 19. You know, have you ever listened to the radio? No, not really. It's such a fascinating thing because we grew up with it.

Craig: Of course.

Tommy: It was just so native to us. And I know there was about 5 apps when I was working for the company that came out trying to encourage people to use their phones to access radio. Was there a pressure when you were, you know, in amongst it or some stress out, you know, saying we need to fucking work this out?

Craig: Well, I mean, my view on working it out Um, always comes back to talent. So I think that, um, you know, radio's only hope is to encourage people like Hamish Blake and a young Hamish and Andy and whatever iterations of that show exist today to choose radio over podcasting or a YouTube channel or whatever it is that they might do.

Josh: Do you think they'll ever become the same thing?

Craig: Like, yeah, I think that, and you're starting to see that, and there's plenty plenty of people on, on my podcast over the last couple of months that are doing, you know, great video content and making, uh, and have audiences on a bunch of different platforms and, and really don't think, um, much about it. They just— it's just part of what they— well, my audience is here, here, and here, so I'll be here, here, and here, and I'll do a bit of video, and I'll write a blog, and I'll talk on the radio, and it all sort of comes together. But, you know, um, what's happened in the States, uh, is that radio stopped investing in talent. And, and if that happens here in Australia, then the decline will happen really quickly. And what worries me at the moment is that there is no young show coming through changing things up like there was 10 to 15 years ago on radio in Australia at the moment. And all of the shows that are on the air are fantastic and heritage, and we've heard them over the years, and they're all familiar voices and we love them. You know, your Dave Hughes's and, and, and, um, uh, you know, Fifi and, and all of these presenters who are amazing, but But you know, Fifi was doing a national drive show on Triple M at 28.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Where's the next Fifi and where's the next young comedian that is going to think of the world differently to how, you know, I do?

Josh: Yeah. Well, I think that the reason why I think routines are interesting is because it will then somewhat dictate what people are listening to. Like I remember growing up listening to The Cage in the morning, The Shebang in the afternoon, and then finishing it on off with love song dedications at night. Richard Mercer. And so yeah, I think that that worked for you, the love song dedications. Well, I remember they had a site where you could actually put in like your love song requests and me as an emo teen would just sort of listen, like actually had a copy right here.

Craig: Oh, you weren't listening with your girlfriend at the time?

Josh: No, no, no, I had no one. I had no one.

Craig: It might have been a power move of some sort, Josh. Let's put the radio on, darling.

Josh: But the, yeah, so I do wonder though whether the radio, the way that it is, the mainstreamness of it, whether we can innovate, whether we can have fresh perspectives in regards to, you know, the restrictions, like just the fact that there's licences and there's certain things you can say, there's certain things you can't say. Do you see that as a limiting factor?

Craig: Oh, totally.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Absolutely. We can say and do whatever we want. And I heard Russell Brand talking to Joe Rogan the other week, uh, and you know, Russell's got his own podcast, Joe's got his, and, um, they're making their own content without having to answer to anyone, and that's what they love most about it.

Tommy: Um, Joe's got about 4 people in his team. Yeah, which is the biggest podcast in the world.

Craig: Yeah, so he, you know, he's— and, and you see his weekly guest list and it's the most, you know, broad range of people you could imagine, but it's— they're his choices. So yes, there is a playbook that that lots of shows and performers have to sort of work around in the mainstream space. And narrow by design doesn't tend to work when you're trying to get the largest audience you can. But that, I mean, it's funny when we— so the other show that I had that I was around when it was successful was Kyle and Jack. And that idea when we launched it was around Breakfast with the Stars and it being a celebrity-focused breakfast show, which was new at the time. And we had to play in that space because Merrick and Ross So we're doing Breakfast in Sydney and, you know, we needed something different. So this single focused idea around celebrity pop culture was probably the last narrow content play. And the irony is it becomes the biggest show in Australia, but it had a single idea. And yeah, it's harder to do that these days in broadcast. Narrowcast, obviously, it's the, you know, once again, getting back to your point, it's okay, well, how, you know, how how defined can you make this concept and, you know, what does it exactly do?

Josh: Well, you were talking with Clive Dickens on Game Changers about the terrorist attack in New Zealand and how the gunman was able to film and put it out, perform to his audience. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: And so I'll just say Mr. 97's auntie was in that video.

Josh: Really?

Craig: Oh my God.

Tommy: She would— yeah, you could see her in the—

Josh: on the street.

Tommy: She nearly got hit by the car.

Josh: It's crazy. And so the, the, that idea of open broadcasting, uh, happening on Facebook, there's so much sort of policy, uh, with radio and what you can put up and all that sort of thing. Do you think that it will meet in the middle? Do you think there will be governance that, uh, these media companies like Facebook will have to start to—

Craig: Yeah, well, either Facebook have to come to us or, or, or this, you know, we, we open ourselves up a little to be a little more, uh less restrictive in what we can do and say. I would think the latter more than the former. But, um, yeah, it, it has to happen at some point. The, the playing field's not even close to being level. Yeah, it's— and, and this idea that Facebook is a platform and not a, not a media company— if they edit to the— yeah, the algorithm is all about the edit. It's edited to exactly what you're interested in. And, and, uh, so that That's crazy. That has to change at some point.

Josh: And you hear in the US as well, like the biggest radio shows, like there's the Howard Sterns, but there's even like Bobby Bones who have all been wrapped up in FCC controversy. So what is the— without becoming a nanny state and, you know, censoring and things like that, what place do you think that government should play in the content that goes to public?

Craig: Well, Um, what role are they playing at the moment? So on my phone I can have Howard Stern and Joe Rogan, and Joe can use the C-word and, and can talk about essentially whatever he wants, and Howard can't. Um, but they both look the same on my phone. So what, what's, what's going on? Yeah, how does that work?

Josh: Yeah. And so do you think that it's—

Tommy: it is—

Josh: which one's going to move? Do you think which one's in the right position?

Craig: Well, it feels like, um it feels like Facebook and Twitter certainly, and Instagram are about to get some structure and rules around them that they haven't had up until now. And it's at a government level. And you talk to anyone that knows about this and it's— it was always going to happen from a government level. It's essentially, you know, these things are— they're just too big and too unwieldy and there has to be some structure around them, I think. Yeah, at some point.

Josh: When you've finished being an employee and went freelancing, what did that routine look like and what was, what was your frame of mind day one solo, Craig?

Craig: Um, that's a good question. Um, I had, uh, I had a good conversation with Irene Hume who was, um, uh, worked at— so Irene is now head of music at the Hit Network and had worked at Nova and ARN. I think she may have been fired from ARN and had been out of the picture for about 6 months. And she said to me, and this was just in passing, it didn't— wouldn't— I wasn't working, but I still got up at 6:30 every morning.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And I thought, okay, that's, that's an interesting point. And I like structure and ritual, so I got up early and I, you know, I would train, I would write. I mean, I had 6 months where I couldn't work in Australia anyway, so there was a period there where I just had to sort of sit on my hands.

Josh: Was it— do you think that was a bit of a blessing? Did it give you a little bit of a get out of jail free card to get your shit together?

Craig: Possibly. Um, I didn't feel like I had to get my shit together. I mean, it was, you know, the thing about a big—

Josh: I guess it's a, it's a huge change where it's like, uh, I just assumed the phone was going to ring.

Craig: Yeah, I, I just was thinking my, my—

Josh: fuck, you're relying on a landline, Craig. No one's got them anymore.

Craig: Text message. Someone call me. No, and it's funny because Marty talked about it on the podcast on the first interview. He said, you know, the phone didn't ring for 3 years, Craig. And you know, he's, he's the number one drive host in Australia, and sometimes these things happen. Um, and the phone didn't ring because there was no work that anyone could give me that I would have wanted to do anyway. Um, but I just assumed that the phone would ring, and then I realized, okay, I'm just gonna have to go out and do my own thing here. Um, and you know, thank God I did. But yeah, I had a— you have to understand how, you know, a 65, 70-hour work week where, you know, you're spinning so fast and so hard, and when that stops, you know, and you've had 10 years of it at that pace, it takes a long time for you to—

Josh: I find it so interesting, the coping mechanisms of like of that transition, because it's not like one of those things where it's, you know, uh, my girlfriend worked at a company for 4 years. Like, the cycle in which people stay at companies is so much smaller now. 4 years felt like a big deal, and for her to to decide to leave was a— probably took a year. It was probably, you know, in the third year, there was a whole year where she was thinking about it. So that whiplash of leaving, I can imagine there's a bunch of personal work. Did you have to go to a therapist? Did you have to do any of that stuff?

Craig: No, I didn't. But it was all around ego. So you have to understand, so when you resign or when you leave in a job like that one, your phone blows up for a day. Hey, you know, and all of these people saying nice things. Guy Dobson's just gone through it at the start of the year. You know, I can't believe how many text messages and whatever. Same for me. And then—

Josh: All from Jules Lutton. Motivational quotes.

Craig: And then 48 hours after, the phone stops. That's it. And everyone has moved on as they should.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: That's why good cut-through, that's a good recommendation. If someone leaves a job, wait more than 48 hours for the text. Wait 2 weeks.

Tommy: You'll have real cut-through.

Josh: Yeah, real cut-through.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Craig: Get out of the message before. Absolutely. And send it 2 weeks later. So there's— so then you go, okay, um, that's now longer— no longer happening. And, and then coupled with, um, so I might send an email to someone on my new email address and don't— I don't get a reply for 24 hours. And I'm thinking, what the fuck? I mean, for 10 years, if I send an email to someone, they're going to reply straight away because it's me on the other end.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Craig: So understanding that And I always felt like I had a fair understanding of the fact that it wasn't me, it was the title. So people were nice to me because I had a title that meant that I could potentially move you from Shepparton into Melbourne. So you were nice to me.

Josh: He never did.

Tommy: He never did. And I—

Josh: He just built his own wall.

Craig: But so I think I understood that. But when it actually happens, it's really quite confronting.

Tommy: The picker's now picking himself. And so I guess that's the transition, right?

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: You, you, um, you've read a lot of Seth Godin stuff?

Craig: Yes, I have.

Tommy: And, um, you know, he's sort of been the one vying for picking yourself for a long time. How much of that sort of the industries where you're needing to be picked, are they still in existence? Do you think it will run its course or they'll always be there in some capacity where there is someone at the top saying and making the decisions?

Craig: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, probably less and less moving forward, but you know, there will be, um, from a mainstream media perspective, yes, there'll be people like, um, you know, like Lorne Michaels and these sorts that will be the, the, the final, um, decision maker, the kingmakers and the gatekeepers. Yeah, the gatekeepers. Yeah. And, and, but you know, those gatekeepers are becoming less and less important, aren't they, as we sort of move into a different phase. And that's not to say that, that, you know, you And it's interesting, you talk to people who have these incredible followings on Instagram and Twitter, and, you know, their goal is still a mainstream TV show, or I want to do mainstream radio. So there's still some appeal in it, but it's, yeah, it's part of a much broader, more interesting ecosystem than 10, 15 years ago.

Tommy: Do you think it's a result of more people having to pick themselves? They're becoming traction in people picking themselves, finding success, that it is sort of driving in this way? Or do you think it's landscape, you know, technology that's shifting at all.

Craig: Yeah, and it depends on what you're picking yourself for as well. I mean, for us, you know, making content and, and content marketing is a natural place for us to, to play in. So, you know, if I'm, if I'm consulting to, uh, businesses that are not in media, I'm not going to do necessarily a podcast to sort of demonstrate what I'm capable of. But it made sense to, you know, have that as a sort of a lead to introduce introduce other markets to what I could do. And same for you guys as well. I mean, you're making content and you make content with the company that you have. So kind of it's a natural sort of, I guess, progression to have this as an arm of it.

Josh: You mentioned Ego. What was your relationship with Ego a few years ago versus now?

Craig: Yeah, it's I'm much more thick-skinned around rejection. I sent an email to someone the other week around an idea that I had and didn't get a reply. That would have, you know, 4 years ago I would have been, oh damn, you know, what am I doing wrong here? And now it's like, I'm just, you know, you got to have some irons in the fire and you got to— yeah. So much more thick-skinned. But, you know, my skill set is much broader now as well. Ironically, I mean, I was, you know, really narrow around being a content director and then a head of content and making decisions in those spaces. But, you know, this time has forced me— not forced me, but it's allowed me to think differently about content creation and try to really understand it and empathise with it from the perspective of the performer. So, you know, if you think about the Game Changers podcast, it's now, I don't know, 100 hours of one-on-one conversations with people that make content. And it's unbelievably difficult to do. The good ones make it sound easy, but it's incredibly confronting and you're vulnerable when you're in that space of making something that is designed to make someone laugh or designed to connect in some sort of unique way. And you know, so I wanted to really try and understand it as best I could. And you can't do that when you're working 60, 70 hours a week and you've got, you know, I don't know, presentations you're making to the board and 400 other executive functions across the course of any week. So I've had a chance to sort of sit down and really think about, you know, how I wanted to— the role I could play as a, as a coach and mentor for, for talented people. So you see it as a fun branding exercise for yourself and the Game Changers?

Tommy: Yeah, just, I guess your journey now?

Craig: Yeah, well, I mean, I, I was always— I loved the pointy end of it. I love the content creation part of it. I'm, I'm naturally creative. I love being— give me a small room, a whiteboard, and 3 or 4 people with an open mind, and, and we can— um, that's, that's me.

Josh: We can't get our whiteboard up the fucking stairs, unfortunately. It's literally—

Craig: can we write on this?

Tommy: Definitely not.

Josh: We actually have it currently in the garage, and we're working on a system, a pulley system, so we can get it up onto the third floor. Yeah, it was a slight mistake.

Craig: So I love that. I mean, I love the creative process. I— and at the end of the day, I'm always constantly amazed at people that can communicate in a really effective way, whether it's through comedy or commentary, whatever it might be, because I'm not naturally that way. I'm stumbly and bumbly, and I kind of, you know, have to sort of um and ah my way through most sentences. And I hear people that are erudite and, and really clear.

Josh: And erudite's a good word.

Craig: And, and I think to myself, wow, that's an unbelievable skill, you know. And, um, so it does come from a place of, uh, of, um, respect. And, and I'm really interested in, in then, you know, potentially helping people that haven't quite discovered that in themselves yet and seeing if I can kind of, you know, encourage them to be more than, than what they are.

Tommy: The pe— um, some of the things you may have helped the on-air talent with, you know, some of the issues they faced, the confidence things. Do you think you faced any of those in, in this new space? Um, yeah, I, you know, um, because I'd say you'd have like this hyper-awareness to sort of understand what they are. And yeah, this is what—

Craig: yeah, no, I'm really good at helping others and not great at listening to my own issues. But you know, that's pretty standard, isn't it? If you could be your own coach, which Seth talks about being you know, being your own CEO. And if, you know, if a CEO talked to you the way you talk to yourself in your own mind, you'd sack them sort of thing. And so yeah, I— there are times where I think, you know, what am I doing here and why aren't I doing more? But I think that's just part of who I am naturally. I'm not— I've never really been comfortable with just being in a space at any given time. It's always been about going, okay, well, I'm here now and can I keep getting better? And thank God, because I think the alternative is, is, um, well, people pass you by and you end up being obsolete, don't you?

Tommy: Yeah. High performance— what is a high performer to you in this landscape?

Craig: Um, so one of the great, um, quotes or metaphors that I've heard in and around the creative, uh, space is, um, Tom Papa, who's a, who's a US comedian, and he talks about comedians who open the shop every day. And he said that, you know, you open the shop and some days the shop, it's really busy, lots of customers, you make lots of money. And there are other days when you open the shop and no one turns up. But good comedians go through the process of opening the shop and doing the work, i.e., putting pen to paper and creating and writing. And I think that I could draw a through line with every single high-performance team and performer that I've seen along the way. And all of them open the shop. They all do the work. And the work is where you generate your energy and your confidence from. And sometimes it's really hard, you know, sometimes you just, you've got nothing to say and nothing good to do, but you've got to get that blank piece of paper out and just start putting—

Josh: showing up.

Craig: Yeah, showing up.

Tommy: We've opened a physical shop, haven't we?

Craig: But the daily talk show is exactly that. That's a— and we talked about this last time around, it's a massive commitment. You put daily on the front of your podcast. I mean, as I said, I thought about it. Maybe I could do the Daily Game Changers. I'm not ready for that commitment.

Josh: What's your relationship with money, and did it change from going from an employee to working for yourself?

Craig: Yeah, I flew Jetstar to Melbourne today, which was awesome, versus being the pointy end at SEA. Look, my relationship with money, I don't really have one that's particularly healthy, to be honest. I, I, um, uh, I've always, you know, had a reasonable salary, and now I'm in a situation where, you know, I've got enough clients that I can be comfortable with whatever decisions I want to make. But, um, yeah, I'm probably— I don't have any expenses really other than if I'm flying to Canada or New Zealand or South Africa, though that's taken care of from the client end of the, the spectrum. But there are occasions when I I need to spend a little bit.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Was it a big learning, like going— because I remember working at SEA and they would release like, because SEA is a publicly listed company, but you'd hear that, here, Dobbo's on $850K. It's like, fuck, I'm getting $55K. Where the fuck's my money?

Tommy: I was on $50K in Shepparton. Yeah.

Josh: And so did you, was it a shock? And do you look back and say, I should have done X, Y, and Zed financially? Did you leave— when you left radio, was there a sense that you needed to get straight back into it and work?

Craig: Yeah, no, I didn't need to. Yeah, I'm married and we have, you know, a good setup in terms of my wife's got an amazing business, so we're lucky in that respect. And yeah, I earned a lot of money for a few years there. There, uh, and we, um, but, but I, you know, I just don't— I didn't never really thought too much about it. The, the work was too all-consuming to sort of, um, you know, yes, you could have nice holidays and, and have a nice house, but outside of that, you're never thinking when you're in that role. Yeah, there's a drama in Sydney, Kyle's about to leave, but hey, I'm happy because I'm earning half a million dollars a year. It's, I mean, it's neither here nor there. I mean, and when you get to that point, when you earn a lot, if it's quite, you know, it really does— your motivation becomes, well, do I actually like doing this job, or is it just about the money? And it was always about the work.

Tommy: Were you happy?

Craig: Yeah, no, I loved the work. I really did. I mean, we had some unbelievably difficult times. I mean, we went, you know, we lost Colin Jacky-O.

Tommy: And you take that personally?

Craig: Yeah, I did, absolutely. I felt like I had to take it personally. I mean, the reality is that it was a very different company with a chairman, you know, that, that didn't really understand media, and a CEO who had a lot of pressure from a board that were expecting, you know, particular things.

Tommy: And he was in Shepparton.

Craig: Yeah, he was too, wasn't he?

Josh: Sausage Sizzles.

Craig: Yeah, lovely man, a really good guy. And, um, but they, um, I mean, I wasn't involved in any of the Kyle and Jack discussions, any of the the negotiation. So that— we'll put that on the table. There was no conversation between myself or Kyle or Andrew until— Andrew Hawkins— until the day that he was about to announce on the air. I said, are you sure? Can we turn this around? But that was the only conversation I had. But I was head of content when Kyle Sandilands leaves Austereo, so therefore it has to be my responsibility. And I said something the other day, you know, I wrote a letter, I never sent it, but, you know, I was prepared to leave off the back of it. But but, you know, had my mind changed. And I still struggle with it. I mean, I'm not struggle as in I don't— I'm not rocking in a corner, but I— it's not a— it's not something you want to have next to your CV.

Josh: Do you think you took the fall for it unfairly?

Craig: I don't know. I haven't thought— I mean, I'm sure there would be lots of people that would go, that guy that you're talking to right now, he's the one that fucked up SEA.

Josh: Well, you imagine the way that you read it on radio today, you imagine it's you when Sandilands in a room, he says, how much you want to say fuck off, mate? He goes, I'll go to the other station. You say, no, do it and give it a real fucking good go.

Craig: Yeah, no, that didn't even get close to happening. So I mean, I'm a part of an executive team and that decision was made whilst I was there. So, and you know, we put jewels into Breakfast and, you know, when you're in that situation, you try and think positively about, okay, well, we we can rebuild. And it was terrible. We just got absolutely creamed. So that was difficult. But I still loved the work though. I still love the work. But, um, yeah, it was a really tough time.

Josh: How do you, uh, when other people have made a decision for you, how as a leader do you lead based on that, where you might have a personal opinion that's different to the whole executive team?

Craig: Well, that was— I mean, normally any decision that's made around content I would be making that decision. So the, the unique situation there was that because it was a contract and there was a breakdown in terms of terms and amount, um, that was at a higher level than mine. I had to kind of go with— I had to be a part of the solution, not the, not the contract negotiations. And my job was to go, we'll find a show that can replace these guys.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Um, and, um, so there were very few content decisions, if any, that I, I was making on behalf of the company. There'd be times where we'd have to kind of compromise on some decisions, but most of them were mine.

Josh: Did you ever speak to Carl and Jack after they transitioned?

Craig: After as in, yeah, maybe even now, like that you're not working there. I've spoken to Carl a lot since then. And, you know, time, I'm not sure how, we haven't gone into the specifics of what he was thinking and what we were thinking. But, you know, we had a really good relationship. Relationship up until the whole way through, to be honest. So there was never ever a problem with him personally. It was just a question of, you know, here's what he wants and here's what we need as a company moving forward.

Josh: Yeah, I guess the hard thing is it's the towing the company line on it versus your personal— because you're mentioning you felt sort of personally— were you personally affected based on the executive's decision more than the actual Carl and Jack move?

Craig: Well, I mean, the, the where I was affected was, um, you know, we had a number one show that was delivering number one ratings to our biggest radio station, and my job was pretty easy. It was just to get the show on the air every day because they were, they were so brilliant and are so brilliant at doing the rest. So it's gone from that to, well, now let's compete against them and start again, uh, and it's a completely different model. And as you know, with radio, the, the relationship, if you've got it with your audience, they're going to move to wherever you go. And as he had with his audience, um, so we were on hiding to nothing right from the moment, you know, we, we parted ways.

Tommy: But you had a Spice Girl.

Craig: I had a Spice Girl, yeah. And that was— I mean, it was just— look, thinking, looking back now, it was just a, a really difficult time. We were making these decisions in October, November.

Josh: Were these third ideas, do you think? Like, as in the, the breakfast shows that you're bringing— I know that you probably got to 3 within the time, 3 different shows. What was your thoughts around how you built out the ensemble?

Craig: Yeah, to compete against Kyle and Jack, which is almost an impossible thing to do. So we thought, okay, well, if it's a duo, the Kyle and Jack are a duo, then we have to do something that's different. So let's build an ensemble cast. Let's see if we can bring some big names to the show, being Mel B, which was a disaster. Sophie and Jules were fantastic together, and Merrick, um, was, um, you know, the, the them as a three-hander potentially could have worked. We made it really messy to start with, and then once the narrative is created, which is two days, two days a loser, Kyle and Jackie are unbeatable, then you're screwed. Once that narrative is, is in play, which it was within, you know, at the end of the first survey, it was then, you know, just a question for everyone to sort of follow the bouncing ball on how bad bad can it get?

Josh: So surveys, what's, what's your take on them? Because it seems like when you— people are doing well, surveys are the best fucking thing ever. When you're not doing well, surveys are rigged and they're bullshit. Yeah, yeah.

Craig: Well, you try and sit somewhere in the middle, so they're never as bad as they seem and never as good as they, they seem either. And, and I'm, I'm careful of rhetoric around, hey, we've just gone up 2 points and therefore that must be because we had these amazing 8 weeks in the air. I mean, it just doesn't work work that way. I mean, radio habits— and it is habit-forming— they, they are ingrained. And, and if, unless the format that you're listening to or the, the show that you're listening to dramatically changes in some way, shape, or form, you're not going to change that habit. Because people don't think about radio like we think about it. I mean, it's just background, it's a commodity.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: I've had a friend who's just finished up working with a radio station in the sales capacity And he used to just say to me, selling air over here, mate. Like, in terms of what comes back and what they're sort of spitting to the clients in terms of numbers. And it's hard to quantify when you're not seeing numbers tick over like a podcast, or, you know, the analytics aren't there. It's not as rich. And so, can you tell me what is in these surveys, how they get done? What do you— like, do you know? I don't really— I'm not really across it.

Craig: Yeah, I mean, it would be a long and boring 15 minutes if you want to go there, Tommy, but essentially—

Tommy: Damn it, it was my first thought, sorry.

Craig: Yeah, I mean, look, you know, part of the issue with the way surveys are collated these days is that you've got people that are given a book, essentially a survey book, and asked to fill it out over a period of 4 weeks.

Tommy: Mr. 97, do you know what a book is? Yeah, I got that one.

Craig: And here's a pen, here's a book, book. Let's get these stickers on the book, the stations that you listen to. So if it's my daughter, it's Triple J, maybe Hit 107, and Fresh FM. And whenever you're listening to a station, mark the quarter hour. The book goes into the top drawer of your kitchen cupboard. You grab it at the end of the week when the guy knocks on the door and says, have you filled out the book? You go, fuck, I haven't filled out the book. You tick, tick, tick, make up a few numbers.

Tommy: Did you ever get sent a book?

Craig: No, that's not what everyone does, but for a lot of people it's—

Tommy: but she I've got that.

Craig: Of course, it's a lot in tech.

Josh: In tech, there's, uh, heaps of work around automating, uh, like time, working out how much people spend on things, time management. Um, what is it called when you are, uh, filling out a form for time? What is it?

Tommy: Timesheets.

Josh: Timesheets. Automating that because they worked out that— I think it was Deloitte said that it was like they were off by about 20% if you do it manually. So there's a huge huge variance in what is actually happening, what might be unconscious. So that becomes not necessarily just what comes through the speakers, but what fucking billboards are they seeing?

Craig: Yeah, of course. So yeah, and what they remember from the week. So on Sunday afternoon you get the knock at the door, you go, yeah, well, I know I listened to Hit 107 in the morning, so, and I'm roughly in the car side, tick tick. And that's not to say that this information is wrong, it's normally based on on, on, um, you know, perception more so than I've got the book with me the whole time and I've just listened for another quarter hour, here's another tick. So there's partly that, but, but if you look at the numbers overall, they reflect where the radio stations are at generally. I mean, you have the, the stations that have larger audiences, so higher QMs, stations like Nova and the Hit Network and Kiss, because they play songs on higher rotation. So that's that, they have larger audiences. And then you have you know, the AM talk stations with longer listening because you've got audiences that, that are, you know, traditional radio listeners that listen for longer periods of time. So it all makes sense. But, you know, the, the process, um, I mean, the PPM process in the States is a disaster. I mean, disaster, it's a nightmare. You know, you've got this, you're essentially, you've got a, a, um, a little sounder, like a listening device. Yeah, clip to your, your, uh, like a money belt type thing.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And you can imagine, you know, 15 to 24-year-old females, can you wear this thing around here for the next 8 weeks over summer? I don't think so.

Josh: It's like 40 Fitbits stuck into one thing.

Craig: So if we were sitting here and I was wearing a PPM, a people meter, something something people meter, and there was a radio playing, that would pick up whatever radio was on. It wouldn't be the station I was listening to. I could walk into a shop and, you know, Smooth is playing and that's the station.

Tommy: I remember my mate got a, um, on, on top of his TV was this box, and I said, what's that? And I remember the room I was in, and he's like, yeah, this guy came to the front door and said, you plug it in, put into your TV, and it recorded what he was watching, what channel he was watching.

Craig: Yeah, so that's a much better—

Josh: from, from a content perspective, qualitative research. Uh, I remember when I was a digital content for Fifi and Jul, Sam Cav talking about benchmarks and the importance of benchmarks and how they go in qualitative sort of surveys. How much did you actually use qualitative research to determine what you did from a content perspective?

Craig: Well, I mean, it's a combination of a bunch of factors. I, I would take what the audience is saying and, and I would try and merge that with what the performers are trying to do, and you would try and meet in the middle. So for me, with shows, it's always a case of what try— what, what kind of radio show are you trying to make here and how close are we to that? And then when you're making that show, let's see what the audience says about it. Let's see what resonates, and let's see what, what, what they're, what they're connecting with, and let's do more of that and less of the rest. So, um, I think if you just brought one form of research, which is that they say XYZ about us, so let's just do that— it has to— it's a creative process, and I just haven't seen any successful show, um, be successful on anything other than their own terms. And so you have to find out what those terms are. I mean, if we had asked Hamish and Andy to do heavier, real, authentic kind of, you know, primal content, they may have said yes, but it would have been the worst thing for them to do.

Josh: They would—

Craig: they were, they were an escape show. They were just there for fun and, and, and as a, as a relief. Uh, you know, so you've got to, you've got to find out what the performer wants as a starting point. And look, you can do that with really good successful shows that know what they're about. And then if you're developing a show, it's a case of going, okay, well, let's hear what you can make and, and let's see if we can kind of develop that into something.

Josh: Do you have a, a few favourite questions that you can chuck out at any team and get a gauge on how they're going? If they hate each other from a team dynamic point of view, but also from, are they thinking about the right things?

Craig: Yeah, I think I mentioned to you before we did a— so the thing that I would do with this show, for instance, I would do the P4 marketing model. So people, position, product design, promotion. And you can use this with whatever product you're taking to market, whether it's a radio show or a podcast or created a new sneaker. Who is the audience? Where are we positioned in the market? What do we do that is unique to our show? And then how do we promote ourselves? And, and obviously you can and you can have as many, as much detail as you can around those 4 elements. But it's the starting point. It's the, it's, you know, are we on the same page? There's the page. The page is, here's our audience. Here's where we're positioned. So Kyle and Jackie O are Breakfast with the Stars. They're celebrity focused there. So that was our starting point. So everything went through that filter. How do we reflect that in the product of the show? Well, we'll do pop quiz. Twice a morning, we'll do Jackie's own news 3 times a morning, we'll talk to the biggest stars, that kind. Then how do we promote ourselves? Well, obviously if you're with a big media company, you've got TV and billboards, but what are we doing on social media? So that idea is a really good starting point, it's a really good way to go. And you could do that with this show. Who's your audience? And if you, if you're saying, well, I think it's a 25 to 44 year old male and they're in this headspace, and you're thinking something else, then and, you know, sort your shit out.

Tommy: What I do love though is it's— I mean, you could do that at the very start of anything. You could work out for a business what's your mission, what's your vision, what's your values. Opening the shop though gets you to a point where stuff becomes more clear. And I feel like if we were to do the P4P now, we've got so much data. And I was listening to your episode with Christian Hull, which I loved. And what I love about Christian is he's got this part where, you know, he's, he's so talented, he— but he also says, oh, I don't know how this is happening, you know.

Josh: But don't you think that's a universe? I think that's a universal thing. Like, you speak to Hamish and there's, there is an indescribable thing that all these people have, which when I've sat down with him, I'm like, yeah, nah, but seriously, what it like? Come on, I know that you've got the shtick. Like, it almost plays into And there's also the other side of it, which is even though it looks seamless for all these people, like you see, like I remember making a short film on Christian Hull and seeing how he would say, I don't care about all this sort of stuff, or these things don't concern me. But then when it came to publishing, he taught me so much in the social media thing of just like, it wasn't even necessarily on his radar, but it was just, oh, this is what I do, we need to post it this way, you should be using this link, not that link.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: So what is it?

Tommy: Is there some sort of magic that is out there that we can't understand, that we can't describe?

Craig: Uh, I think it's trial and error. I really do. I think you've got to, as Christian said, you've just got to start making stuff and see what works for you. And, um, you know, that you talk about questions you would ask of individuals and of shows um, you know, skills are transferable, knowledge is something that you build up over time and through experience, but talent is innate. You know, whatever it is that you have, you're going to have more of it the older you get. So you better work out what that is. So for me, as a, a young radio person, I worked out that I was, I was pretty good from a creative perspective. So I used that as the single sort of, um, bullet point for my work both on the air and then as an assistant content director and then out into programming. I, I, I, and I, I really played to that forehand. Um, and so, you know, through trial and error, you've got to work out what it is that you have that is unique to your own skill set. Um, and that, that talent element, you know, if you're naturally curious or if you're a— and you see it in people. Some people are just, um, yeah, some people are innately curious, some people are innately competitive, some Some people, someone like a Karl Sandlands just has this gift of the gab. He's just fast on his feet. So how do we use that in a way that's useful with whatever platform you're using to promote yourself?

Tommy: From your chat with Christian, there might be a piece that he's not identifying. It's that thing happening. He's showing up. Can you see with Christian, do you think you could analyze, do the P4P and actually have, make some sense of it all?

Craig: Yeah, I think so. Well, and, and I think once you've made sense of it— yes, I do. And I think he's made sense of it. He just has a way of— I think it's part of his persona is to kind of downplay, um, how it's working for him. But I, I mean, and if you look at his scenario, it's, it's, um, you know, he's got a live show that's working, he's got a book coming out, he's got a podcast with numbers that between the three of us we would, you know, give our left arms for. Um, so he's unbelievably successful, but I think he's he's putting it through the filter of, you know, I'm kind of making this up as I go. I think that's a persona. Yeah, it's more relatable.

Josh: Well, it's also— yeah, I think that there is also a lot of unknown to it as well. Uh, do you ever call radio stations? Are you ever a punter? Do you ever get on?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Craig: I don't—

Tommy: you're a prize pig, Craig.

Craig: No, no, no. As a kid, as a kid, there was a sports show in Adelaide that I would ring as a young lad, um, and, uh, and then there was a, a night show that I I would ring and get my favourite song played. But no, I haven't rung a radio station for years.

Josh: Can you listen to radio without having the content mind on and deconstructing it all?

Craig: Um, it— more so now. My relationship with radio is different to what it was a few years ago. I'm much more dispassionate about the work, um, than I was, and, and I'm a much better programmer because of it. So with that dispassion comes, um, objectivity, which is the number one thing I can bring to any show is, you know, when you're in working on a product or programming a product, you're, you're wanting it to sound a particular way. You're hoping for the best. It's like a, you know, it's a, it's like a child that you're wanting the best. Does it sound this way? I hope it does. And I can come into any situation, you know, from a, in my role now, and listen to it more objectively.

Josh: So you're so detached That's why I think the power is in what you're doing now. Like, you've— there's— anyone can be detached, but being attached to something for so long, being in those teams, to now be out of it, to then— I think that's like a superpower.

Craig: Yeah, well, possibly. I mean, and I, um, I find myself emotionally attaching to shows that I work with. It's hard not to. It's hard not to, um, you know, end up rooting for the people that you're helping. And, and, but that changes the way you hear things. And the more emotionally attached you become, the less helpful you are. So what they're wanting, I think— and when I say they, from an on-air presenter— is they just want someone that can, um, that can kind of clear the air and, and help make sense of what they're doing. Am I on the right track here?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And, and, um, yeah, that—

Josh: I think that's, that's certainly part of what I do with the the roles that you have with, say, your Canadian clients and things like that, what does that actually look like? Are you going on Google Hangouts and chatting to them? Do you go actually, you know, into their radio stations?

Craig: Yeah, well, I go to Canada and, um, on a, you know, a couple times a year, um, and the rest of the time it's on Skype or, or, um, so, you know, look, the only problem with Canada is their breakfast shows happen at 2 o'clock in the morning, so it's that. Chat, sleep for 4 hours, get up at 2. Okay, right.

Josh: So is it— how regular are you chatting to them?

Craig: Well, I've got maybe 8 shows that I coach in Canada, so weekly, fortnightly, yeah, essentially rotating around the—

Josh: Do you listen to all of their content?

Craig: Yeah, so I have a platform where I can listen whenever I want, so I don't have to— I can work.

Josh: What is that platform called?

Craig: It's called Radio Monitors.

Josh: Ah yeah, they have that at SEA too.

Craig: Yeah, it's fantastic.

Josh: I was talking about getting log here. What do you have to do to get one? It's probably—

Craig: well, you have to, you have to pay for it.

Josh: Yeah, it's like a licence and all that sort of shit.

Tommy: Yeah, you can buy some other stuff, mate. Yeah, you don't need a radio log in the studio. Craig, thanks so much for coming on, mate.

Craig: Yeah, no worries at all.

Tommy: I love, um, you know, a couple of radio heads, you know, we've both worked in this environment, in the radio environment, and, you know, looked up to you and what you're doing.

Craig: Thank you.

Tommy: It's really nice that you're showing support to creators like us that are taking a chance.

Craig: Yeah, but well, as I said, I said to you before the, you know, before coming on the podcast the other week, or you guys coming online, it's— I just think it's fantastic what you're doing. And, and, um, I think that spirit of inventiveness and, and just getting out there and making stuff and seeing where that might lead is— is only good can come from it.

Tommy: Yeah, we're open for business.

Josh: Yeah. And, uh, Craig's podcast Game Changers, uh, you, you were speaking just with talent, on-air talent, but it's now broadened out to— yeah, all different types.

Craig: It's a bit more, uh, industry focused now.

Josh: It's—

Craig: and hopefully it'll, it'll be an audio podcast as it continues to evolve. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think it's certainly been helpful to young radio people. And, and, you know, there's some fantastic interviews there that I'm sure you'll find something interesting in if you're into radio.

Josh: Perfect. Thanks for coming on, Craig. It's The Daily Talk Show. hi@thedailytalkshow.com is our email address if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, and before I go, I said on Friday, uh, we had two big announcements announcements. One of the announcements was the new studio. The second announcement, which I didn't know what your announcement was going to be, so I overbaked it, was that I was getting a haircut on the weekend.

Tommy: No haircut, bro.

Josh: No haircut on the weekend, but I will be getting one, uh, Monday, this afternoon. So anyway, I know you're wondering about that. It's a daily talk show. We'll see tomorrow.