- April 10, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we’re joined by Genevieve Day. Gen founded one of Australia’s first digital talent agencies, Day Management, which connects influential talent with like-minded brands.
The early days of influencer marketing
Influencers and authoritative figures
Brand awareness and ROI
Taking talent under your wing
Building beyond social media
What’s next for Gen
Gen on Instagram:
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSUFKQ0-AY4
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A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
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It's the daily Talk
Show Episode 322 What is going on?
A lot of episodes it is Genevieve day.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me on on No worries.
The clap thing I think you need to clarify
applause no will clapping out the syllables in names Josh said that there's too many in Genevieve so he will reduce it now to Jim.
We're gonna go to Jenn Now eventually. Yeah, yeah,
because there's certain
people like a Daniels and Andrews names that specifically they don't there's some people who don't like to be Andy.
Totally, but they're a little bit like weird about that. I'm fine. Yeah,
I'm cool with that.
Hi, Jimmy. That's the other way. You don't want me to call you Andy. I'm calling you Andy. Yeah,
well, the other thing is people will call Tommy Tom. Yeah,
I get it. So that's weird, though. Well, it's we because when you introduce yourself, Hi, I'm Tommy. And then they resort to Tom which is different name. So Nikki, that's not you? Yeah, my real name is Thomas. But I don't ever go to Thomas. You know, it's like yeah, I get Tom a lot. It's a rapport killer.
It depends on the setting like professionally I'll always lead with Genevieve is generally be like asserting myself over the other person. Yeah. And then Mike Janssen. Yeah,
well, I heard that you actually in jobs. You make more money if you have a nickname. So I started signing up my emails, JJ. I used to always say Josh
I get TJ people are picking up on that. So when when am I getting paid more? business but it's never
people who don't know Jen.
A lot of people.
You've got a business called day management. Yes. People would know you through the influence you have of the people in your team. So Gemma, what is juice
actually isn't on the books. She isn't on the books.
This is a nightmare. You got Sarah Sarah.
Hello, Sarah Holloway. But Telly smile. Okay. gronk from monster chef the roads of Mel Ben Jessica. Lizzie. Christy hurry. The list does go on. Yeah. So yeah, we kind of work with a whole range of top tier already.
management role like the
she follows you want to Instagram the one good friend.
The one the the position with the less pressure of the influence? I would say it's way more pressure
Really? No, it's a different role. So we kind of connect them with the brands, sponsored content and get them in, you know, new roles as media personalities and MCs and taking them I'm just, you know, just doing Instagram and doing heaps more than that as well. So kind of elevating them to be brand ambassadors and get them paid for the jobs that they love doing. But it's a whole different kettle of fish. They have to look beautiful all the time. And they have to, you know, be presentable and be posting do heaps of content creation. And I just sit at a desk. Yeah. And I'm like, hazy, brave. He's not getting paid. Make it work.
That's good. I saw your your Rockstar article in the
Thank you so much.
We got the cut where I actually left downstairs. What will miss the 97 said I'll run down. I said no, I don't want to be too keen. It was
like dropping it in cafes opened on that page.
Well, I did think that maybe you would then see it below.
It was it. I love the article because it was had jewels land in it too. And so it's like he's representing that sort of take spice of influence
in my mind. Right content creators as he calls it. Yeah, yeah.
And you've got that blend of the old school management in a new school feel totally
more kind of like the yet top tier personality is what we kind of call it.
How have you found since starting time management like the space because I know I read something that you had said that you spent a lot of the first years explaining what the hell influencer marketing totally
Well, it was really educational. It's we launched in 2015, which doesn't seem like that long ago, but also is a really long time ago. Mr. 97 was in diapers at that. Yeah,
still is today.
Actually clarify. We bought 97. And that was you're into school? Oh, sorry, Angela. No.
Okay, so I'm really not that different. Yeah,
so launching 2015. And influencer marketing was really new. And Instagram as a platform was really new as well, in the sense that like, they didn't have Instagram stories, yet, there wasn't like the backend data that we had, that we have at our fingertips. Now, there wasn't like a business profile you just posted. And we're like his main advocating. And it was really easy to get growth on there. And so brands are loving it and normally charging for it on you the value. So we didn't really have as much like facts to back up the value in the ROI what we're doing. So a lot of it was me kind of explain to people like, hey, this will totally work for your brand. And it's a really effective marketing platform and way to go about it. But it took a while to convince people
who were the hardest people to convince, because I could imagine people that are marketing managers that are spending big dollars on TV advertising was probably the hardest eggs.
It was hot. It was almost like the more corporate and the old school ad teams were really hard to convince. It was really linear in the beginning in the sense that like, who actually does fashion female fashion influences only. And we worked with fashion brands. And it was like a really obvious alignment. It's like, Oh, she's wearing a dress from revenue. And that's paid on Instagram. With a nowadays it's like, oh, but working with a travel insurance company about her upcoming trip to Coachella. And she's a fashion blogger. And it's kind of a lot more like integrated and interesting in that sense. So it was really like, yeah, the fashion and beauty were first to market and now it's like Australia Post and office works and the government. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting mix now that people understand it. And they come with bigger budgets and more understanding if we had 50 K to give to you more. Can we get Mr. 97? out there
campaign to get him famous? Yeah,
I mean, totally. That's mine. We charge an agency pay plus GST? Yeah,
Yes, of course. No, we kind of work with people that already have an established presence online.
Brands got 100
60 followers. And they tapped in sort of audience. He knows
he knows he, it's women. So if you got a product, it's not your usual influencer, but it
definitely potential here. I can sell anything. I can totally tell you.
What I mean. What's your relationship with selling things? Do you like sales?
Oh, my gosh, I like live the hustle. Yeah, yeah. So I have no professional experience in sales or anything. I did a PR communications degree. And I worked in payoff for five and a half years. And I always was like a little hustler. Even like growing up, I was that person who like go to the Vodafone guy. And I was 13. I'm like, Can you do a better price on this? That was just me. Yeah.
I think we were very similar between that in debating because you got into debate him as well
debate. It's great. You just get to argue with people and win. Yeah,
dude, were you big on like cue cards and stuff? Did you have sort of certain strategies around? I was
more about the theatrical. So I have a couple of points and be like, Listen here. Yeah. So yeah,
no, it's just kind of like the hustle was always fun. And I love convincing people. And so even in PR, it's a similar kind of bowl game. And when you're pitching something to them, and you're like, Hey, you should write about my client and your newsletter and newspaper. And here's why. And now it's like, Hey, you should work without influencer. And here's why. Yeah.
With from a, from your perspective, where's podcasts at in regards to actually making money? Yeah,
so it's really interesting, because I kind of had these flashbacks when we launched the podcast. This year, we launched in January with the shameless girls Friends of the show. Yeah. We also have Yes, Sarah Holloway sees the a and we just signed Danny Kennedy's the fitness and lifestyle podcast, a bit of diversity there. But it's that same like educational element where we're like, hey, podcast, now how you can market to people and it's got a 61% ROI versus Instagram 7%. But people still are a bit unsure and a bit cautious because they don't understand it. Do you
think that like do you have hoping that you know being a thing, or do you think that it? Absolutely, yeah, yeah,
like it's absolutely happening now. And we're actually I'm saying Australia's first influence agency to launch a pop. Yes. I can't say internals doing it. Please come to the table. If you are. Yeah. And I'll fight you
should debate you and kick your ass. Yeah, exactly.
I'd love to do it to buy a segment on the show.
That would be good. We launched the podcast first. Yeah. Day management. Yeah. I will back you on that one. Yeah,
thank you so much. And so the and so doing a podcast? What does it actually entail? What does it mean for your business? Is there any changes? Yeah,
I mean, it's just kind of like that the new influences are a new kind of group of people who are influences and have influence over consumers. So that's how we view them as opposed to like a network, having podcast and looking at it like a radio ad, we say it more aligned with their demographic and tailoring it in that kind of way and packaging it up. So it's with social media, and it's with the Facebook groups, and Instagram, and you know, the ATMs and everything, so it's more immersive. And it's definitely working. We're seeing great results with the shameless girls in particular, we just had their live shows last month, which were crazy, like, so it shows people want to have that interaction and get brands in the flesh, and also on Instagram and on the podcast. Yeah. Well,
that's what made me have the spotlight on you in regards to the shameless stuff, because they were pulling off these massive events. Yeah. And then I saw like, your name being tagged, you know, in all of this stuff, the the event thing, what's been the learning, putting on an event versus say, you know, doing direct sales with it? Yeah,
I mean, again, because my background was in PR, I had a lot of experience, that event space, I knew what had to happen, which is really great for the girls who came from a journalism background and like with your run sheet and how we're going to do this, and here's your posting requirements. So yeah, it was really helpful. But I think it just shows people want to have in real life interaction with these online personalities. And it was really cool, because they again, were like little celebrities in the sense that there was a line down the block to get a photo with them. And I was like the old school manager, being like, Okay, cool. Next, Next person. Now, back off,
you've had one
time the iPad selfie,
find you have to be sort of a bad cop. Always. Yeah. And to me, how do you approaches,
I mean, the aim of the game is to keep everybody happy. And that just isn't always possible. But it's fun to kind of go for so. And if it means that I need to be the bad cop to keep the talent as the pure, good cop that everyone loves. That's totally fine. It's just kind of the roles we all take on. And sometimes you have to play hardball. And that's how you get the best results for our end. But it is hard because you want to make sure the brands are happy, they keep on booking you again, and make sure that the talent happy. So I stay with you as an agency,
do you find that influences tend to over value themselves or undervalue? In regards to when you're chatting with them? Do you have to be like, hey, you're only going to be getting X amount for this. I know you're thinking this or is it the other way?
I mean, not my talents, but I've heard it can really fluctuate in the market what people are charging as well some people assume that worth more than what the market would value them at. And we kind of move away from saying influences in the management I kind of talk about people with influence. So whether that people have a podcast or TV show or a traditional blogger, they kind of have that influence and that determines what we charge as opposed to like oh you have 100,000 followers therefore you get 1000 bucks well Facebook
has that right like if you want to just reach people yeah just like you can just pay directly and have that Yeah,
cuz we're kind of charging for their face and their name and that brand affiliation as well. It's so much more than just how many people you get on Instagram
was things like five festival that I know so rattled the industry and wise and Jules spoke about it just that sort of negativity or just the naysayers around in that word that term influences Yes, I'm across the board like content creators, I feel is gone a bit stinky in some regards. Just I think it's how long it's been. I think
probably from my perspective, talent is a hard one because I associate talent with Tommy and I working in radio and talent was typically people who rocked up did their job yeah and left and it's like everyone's got to be sensitive to the talent and they're difficult whereas I think that the people that you're working with even
even even though the the talent in one way I feel like they're also entrepreneurs, their content Yeah, absolutely.
And I think as well people want more from influences now in the beginning it was kind of like I can be a really hot girl in a bikini that's totally fine. Let's get you on Instagram with a now they want people that have some more substance behind them they want people that have a business over there. I use the term authority a lot so if you're an authority in like the parenting field or beauty market and so you have to be able to back that with something and just being hot isn't enough anymore. Sorry.
I just bought two he became I mean, you look at the bikini could be the catalyst to find the passion for creating like Tash Oakley Yeah, she's they've launched the brand Calera tennis like all these people have found something within it. And I think you need to, to last. Yeah,
absolutely. And because the opportunities are there, there's so much you can do with this massive platform where you're reaching half a million people, you'd be silly not to
the that the whole bikini influence. Thing what's what's the your perspective on it? Do we give too much sort of voice to that side of
Look, I still have girls in bikinis. Yes. I don't want to like chat that too much. Because we can still do some safety campaigns. Don't worry about that. Yeah, look at there's a place in market for everybody. I'm kind of refer to it as an ecosystem in the sense that everyone has a lot of work in different lines. So we do, like the fashion crowd who might do the Bali shoots and the Kenyans. We also do like the parenting crowd who do stuff with bullets, nappies, and the whole campaigns aren't always like sexy and amazing. It's kind of like there's a whole range of brands that need to be sold need to be marketed. And I often give the really trendy ones to the girls at work with me. And I'll be like, I'm working on its head last campaign right now and doing my washing powder. Yeah.
So as a woman, it is did the bikini models have cut through from a brand perspective? Two women? Yeah,
see, now that we have 97
comes back to our why is that totally expand for brand?
Look, you need to look at this stats and the backend information. That's what I love. I think we're selling so much more than just a beautiful person with a beautiful fade. We're selling that data behind it. And it's a lot of data analysis. And we look at the audience. And it's like, cool, how many of these are male, female? How many are in Melbourne? How many are in Australia? How old are they? And that's kind of where the spend is determined. And that's really cool for us. Because even if someone only has 100,000 followers, if the 97% female, and they're all 18 to 24, that's way more effective than someone with a million that's got 70% dudes
with the ROI conversation. I mean, it's it's always been around and it always will be around. But it's been hard to sort of quantify in the landscape now more so we've got data and stuff, but it's still that sort of spice of ROI that is brand equity is awareness is you know, you're seeing a post. Someone's thinking about them three weeks later, when they need to buy bikini, yeah, you know, something like that. So it's like, you can't use that as the sale from a management point of view. But I feel like you, are you having conversations around educating people on ROI that is not clear or no, yeah,
I mean, it's always brand awareness is where the starting point is, and then that should eventually lead to sales. But we can always guarantee the awareness of that targeted audience and then a sale as a result, awesome. But that's kind of what we can 100% sign off. And then the other byproduct of that should be sales. But that's not what we can really guarantee. As a first point, like you said, you have to say something like seven times for you might purchase it. So if you're the first post that seven, you might not get an instant sale, it'll come kind of down the track. But I think that people and ad agencies and brands are a lot more aware of that now. And they know how to use influences effectively. So they'll run like a campaign with 10 people and kind of space it out to the it's happening all the time, but not on the same day. And then they get a bit of returned from that you
a fan of Seth Godin. Do you know who he is actually, you? You don't read books?
I read that you don't listen to podcasts that
wasn't really old interview. So now your polka
dot the podcast, of course, exactly, is trying to look for the data. That article,
it was 2016. Okay. They were saying before, I did a lot of interviews when we first launched the agency because everyone's like, oh, what's an influencer management company? 24. And how cool. And my like Day in the Life interviews was so lame. I read them now. Like, please take them offline. Because I was like, Oh, I go out for brunch. And I like my nap in the afternoon and maybe a conference go How can
I the catch me if I'm going to make an offer? You've got me on a good day. Yes, that's up early. But that today took the kid had some breakfast and my son went to die. Okay, yeah, I'm here. Exactly. I'm gonna go check. I'm Seth Godin, marketing genius. He talks around sponsorship and advertisement, you know, advertisement is the need to clear ROI. Yeah, the sponsorship bees buying into you know, what the shameless girls have created a cyclone? You know, it's more than just
you having those conversations about? Yeah. Just sponsorship into your talent and who they are and what they've created. Yeah,
and it's a lot more integrated now. And a lot more long term as well. So it's much more like a longer term campaign approach rather than this, like a one off sponsored post. Yeah. And we're finding that people want influences to then be these brand ambassadors. So for example, like Jessica, Lizzie is a brand ambassador for Spencer Atlanta, which saw her being a billboards throughout the entire shopping center, and in the ad campaigns and in print media, and it's more than just the fact she has like 250,000 followers, they're like, cool, you can also be great talent for us in that sense. So it's like sponsorship, advertising involved in that, as well as social media posts. And it's really immersive. We do trying to integrate all these different elements in that, which would include like the podcast, if it's there, or Yeah, the social media feed, or if it's an old school photoshoot going into magazine as an ad. And we can kind of offer everything now from the same influences. Yeah,
do you find that you package up your, your talent? So do you go to a brand and say, hey, we've got five people? Yeah,
look, the party line, I always say is like, compliment not compete. So want to make sure that everyone in the agency sits alongside one another. And it makes sense. No one's like, oh, why you time for them? Yeah. And that would be not competing for the same work. So if a brand comes to us, and they want to work with a range of fashion, talent, we definitely have people that fit their needs. But they will never be like fighting for the same jobs. Yeah.
Who was the first hire internally in regards to like, employees? Yeah,
well, I did it on my own for a long time, because I'm just like a control freak, and really Taipei, and that is not sustainable. So yeah, I think I did a year on my own. And then I hired someone just part time. And then again, I was still like, really involved in everything. So I'm like, Hey, what are you doing today? And what's on your to do list? And then now I'm like, Okay, cool. We have like, three or four full time employees we have full, that was a little counter my head. And we have four full time employees. And I'm a lot more hands off, I did a stuff and they kind of do that logistics, which will be like, I might look into collaboration with Dr. Marisa shoes. And then they will go to the talent and be like, cool, what she says, Are you and would you like the red boots or the black boots. And that's something that I'm not involved in anymore. Yeah, much more that like biggest strategy and overseeing everything and bringing it to life.
I remember as a talent, but as someone
when I was younger, I wanted to be with a talent management company, which would mean I was coming in not as the cleaner as a talent, wanting to get onto the books. And I remember being a case of you know, I remember my mission to get the conversation with them. But then I heard a podcast with logic, the rapper. Yeah. And he's manager, manager, and the story of how his manager hustled to get logic as a talent. Early days. Have you heard that? Yeah. How I built this with go Yes. show good. I think you'll love it as a manager. But just that hustle to find logic and the pitch that he did in those early days. What's the process when you see some girls like, you know, the shameless, yeah,
it's kind of interesting, because it's, you have to get into the right time. And if they have to establish that can be a bit like, Well, why would I need your help?
You want them to pop on the way? Yeah.
And that's what happened? No, I am like a mother had no, kind of nice because I'm 28 next month, but I'm still older than the whole lot of my talent. Today, like, Wow, you're so wise. Oh, my gosh, what was the 90s? Like? So you know, it is kind of nice to help them through that and like, take them under my wing a little bit. But I was lucky in the sense that when we started, Instagram was new. And a lot of these talent had, like 20,000 followers. And like Jess, I mentioned before, is now at 260. We signed her at 29,000. Yeah, like Christie, who we signed her at 14,000. She had 118. And so we kind of brought them on this journey over the last three and a half years where we've been taking them from just doing Instagram posts to be these ambassadors for brands and again, like saying their faces on billboards, and activations and stuff is really cool. So we do always look for someone who is kind of about to pop. And shameless is definitely a I said that I approached them in December with that would just started to pop up everywhere in my newsfeed like as a consumer. I'm like, hey, they're really cool. They've got a really nice voice. And no one's really doing this whole podcast thing. So it was a great time to get involved with it. You think that's
your skill that you might not have verbalize, but now you realize is your ability to identify?
I think, I think so i think i have really good gut instincts. And I'll say certain things and certain people and be like, I want to work with them. That's that's going to be the next big thing. But at the same time, we haven't What
do you think of Mr. Nice, just
gut instinct? Look, I'll give you some pointers.
In six months?
I've had that might you've not, you know,
that's valued information. People are dying for that.
No, it's it's hard because a lot of people do come to us now as well. And it has to be the right fit for us. And there's no like magic following number. So someone might come to us with like, 100,000 followers, and it is not right for the agency, or they don't have that kind of cut through that. A media personality have something Yeah, someone who kind of has more interest or it's about bout to explode in that same way. So it's really difficult to balance it. And at the same time, we want to be boutique Still, we want to make sure that when don't have 55 talent on the books, we try and keep it really small and title it to everybody. So that it's kind of some exclusivity about it. I think it's just a skill of being able to identify sort of
getting on board with you, Tommy Yep. Thanks,
Mike. Any main here? Definitely.
what's the what's the difference between the Australian market and the International international market? Do you think?
I mean, we pay way less? Really? Yeah, I have a couple of talent who are based in LA and New York, but they're Australian influences. So we still work with them. Like Demi Harman was at home and away. And so now she's based in LA and she's got like 330,000. Another woman, Charlotte Bridgeman, is in New York, which is a Melbourne girl. So they kind of deal with the American market over there and then deal with Australian brands through May. And we get a briefing. And I'm like, Oh, it's this amount of money. And they're like, Oh, I know. It's Australia, but like, geez, kind of painful. I'm like, No, we can't we don't have the same amount of budget that you guys get.
I like like you're dealing with numbers day to day. So like people care about numbers, how many followers I caught myself the other day, when someone started following us and we thought it with some with high numbers. And I caught myself saying are no it's just a normal with.
I think I was referring to the fact like the other day, I thought they were someone if implemented. It's a normal, just like us. Just a normal saw them back. Do like what's the main the earliest that you've picked up on? Someone in regards? Have you seen someone at the very, very, very early stages like five posting and 100 followers know
that early? I'm not that cool enough to kind of have a finger on the pulse? I don't think I kind of around 20 K is when it's time to take notice of someone who is gonna go somewhere. Yeah. And I've watched them for a while and have a few interactions with them and be like, Hey, here's your name. Yeah,
there's certain metrics like what do you what are you looking for in regards? Like from a charging point of view? Yeah. How does? How does the finances actually work?
It kind of goes back to the whole, like people with influence can charge more than someone who is just an influencer. So even like we work with Nick Davidson, who Sarah Holloway is fiance. And he's obviously got that whole business authority about him like fitness guy. And he has 11,000 followers. So like, not massive, but he works with Nike and the iconic sport and really huge brands and gets paid quite a lot for it. I'm sorry, Nick food on it. Um, but yeah, it's kind of cool to see someone with a low following number be able to charge that much because he has influence. And that's kind of the difference there. It's not always about like a stock standard model, which some talent agencies don't put out there. Yeah, you can kind of set your own depending on the person.
So I'm guessing day management would have been less affected by the algorithm, then by setting up like that, you still see a brand still talking about the algorithm? I'm
so sick of the algorithm. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of influences were affected by that. And so their engagement has been affected. And some of our girls haven't grown as much in a while, because I set up back in 2010. Some of them even, they've got this brand recognition and people know their face and know their names that they were already established. It doesn't really matter to them. It's so much hotter stuff. Now, it's hard to get follow.
I mean, you have to a good politician to get 500,000 in a weekend. Yes, what you need to do. I mean, there's that classic story of Shaquille O'Neal posting about a car dealership where he got a free car. Yeah. And the car dealership got nothing, like 100 new followers. And he's got millions and millions. Wow. So he's, it's, I mean, I think my filter if I just think about as a consumer as a normal as I am, but I am not willing to follow somebody. Just you know, at the drop of a hat.
You gotta work for it. Yeah. Do you follow me?
Yes, I do. I just followed you on LinkedIn to Oh, wow. Nice. And add or follow just, well, it's just that you added
a request to hasn't accept. So until we haven't made it official.
Maybe after this.
I did say though, I searched your name. And then it came out like Facebook and I clicked on that I had a bunch of tabs open view. And then I went on it was nice, didn't research it. And then I clicked on the Facebook one and it had the ad friend so wasn't actually a profile of you. But I had a moment I was like, maybe too much friend like it is that filter where I remembers the early days Mr. Nice if it wasn't live, but I was adding everybody. I was a mad
Wow. I think everyone was that guy.
Just a guy think
anyone who ever took it extremely personal. there's a there's a cafe that I no longer go to because the barista didn't accept me on Facebook. Yeah.
Otherwise, it's like the on this day when it used to be running someone's will it was kind of private. And then it's like eight years ago, you said to someone like Hey, nice seeing you out loud. Yeah.
I've gone through a delayed and I didn't
know the worst thing. I've deleted my Facebook. Just, it was too much. retired from social media
to me adding friends.
No, but what I when I realized, you know, looking back 10 years or whatever, the thing that I would do is I would straightaway like say I did it don't go into the comments and the likes section. And specifically in the likes section and scroll down to the bottom where you see who isn't a friend of you now who liked your post. Wow. Which is just so factor because you end up saying like, who have I lost? Yeah. Yeah,
I get anxiety, like looking at people who have liked my photos, and I swiped through them, like, Fuck, I'm not following them, but they liked it. And then I'm like, I can't like add them now. Because they like, hey, yeah,
you know, is there is there a pressure to build empires beyond? Its Yeah, I wreck it like a small empires right beyond Instagram. Like, is that an actual strategy within the business, which is like, you know, if I can website you need to be doing stuff that? Yeah,
I mean, it depends on the person and where their followers are base. Like, obviously, people have massive YouTube empires. And that's a huge place it in the beauty industry and gaming and everything. If the audience wants to be an Instagram and that kind of that fashion Kane audience. That's my point, trying to take them to YouTube with me, not all come with you on that journey. Yeah, I think people don't really want blogs anymore, or fashion blogs that we work with. Like it's very rare that a brands like Oh, can we have a blog about this place, especially with like, swipe up URL link, so you get the same back end traffic. So it's kind of the same thing. And then Facebook groups is so successful in like the shameless example. We can build this community and its really engaged and amazing, but it's not for everyone. I think it would work if every single influence was like, I'm now on Facebook. Yeah, yeah,
the web. The blogging thing feels like it sort of coming. Dawn
Williams uses it as a joke. I'm pretty sure.
It was just like, I'll write a blog about it. But I think he uses it as like a Okay, no one wants a blog. But I told him I'd write a blog. If you have a cat.
There is there is something in that building, building other the thing that's not owned by one of the big companies, what is the contracts look like? Yeah. When you get talent on what it like, what is it? What's the actual obligation for them for you?
So we kind of keep it a bit a little in a sense, it's a bit like a marriage. You don't wanna be locked in with someone that you hate?
Not like a maths?
Do you watch math?
I'm the worst with reality TV. They have so many people in my book. Yeah,
I'm the worst. But then the final two, like a lot like, there was the reunion earlier in the week and
stuff. It was just, it was just time I got into bed last night. My wife's on a phone. I'm like, What are you watching? Just like, Who are those putrid? Yeah,
no, it's not good. I don't feel good about it. I feel like I've like, like eating junk food.
Is the exploitation of drone goes like, and we're laughing at them essentially. Like, we're getting caught up in laughing. These are real people. They're just normal. This show caught up in just a few normal bullshit. Yeah,
but the thing is me or email me afterwards, every every bachelor in paradise. Everything loves my mind,
I reach out to
because Mike was the one who spoke to Ashley Williams and said, Hi, Matt. How do you get in the media?
conversation? So that it's like a marriage. So with the marriage, there's the honeymoon phase? Yeah. And you're at that with shameless at the moment. Everyone's like, ready
love. A lot of pies go. Yeah,
Be careful. That's my other talent. I'm like, you're also my favorite.
My wife was pregnant on a honeymoon. So what is that? What is that aside? Hell, yeah. There's a couple
of cocktails then. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
He actually produced some great videos on his honeymoon. Yeah, it is him like exploring and stuff. But I
was at the hotel,
like holding hand over the cliff.
I usually do it as a joke. Yeah.
You got to be doing the jack. Yeah.
What a solo content on that.
In the hotel room sounds like a marriage. Yes. It's like a marriage. You actually saw it? Like, I'm curious. Yeah, sure.
But it's almost like if it's not working, we can end here and walk away. And it's always like we said, the greatest luxury say no to things and I'm going to be forced to do anything or sell anything that isn't right. And so we kind of set like a little wish list and like brand knows as well of people that we want to avoid like the skinny mainstays and like the Hague dummies and those things that aren't really authentic, and aim for things that do align with them really well. But yeah, it kind of just goes into lack commission stuff, and then how we liaison their behalf and then just the fact they're exclusive to us as well. have you
dealt with rebrand. I've had a rebrand personally.
So I used to be 120 kilos, and I used to have different glasses. Thank you. And I looked quite to I there's a photo of me on an elephant in Thailand, which is very different. Yeah, the format? Absolutely. Have you because for instance, teli. Did you say she was on your book? She's? Yeah.
She's someone who didn't really think much of comes from Big Brother or that something? Then I hear on shameless. I'm like, I've completely like judged this person based on being a reality for yet being like, the, like, how we've judged the mass people essentially whatever. But she's actually Well, you like got heaps of insights, and super intelligent and all that sort of thing. Have you had to do specific work on this person's come from this space? Yeah.
I mean, I think with teli it's different in the sense that and I'll have to preface this. She's also one of my best friends. So I'm a little bit bias. Yeah. But no, she kind of came from a space where she was the original reality TV starlet. And she was one of the first to have the social media presence from a TV show. She didn't go in there to get that with a PayPal I think on mass now online while and like, I want to be an influencer, and I want to get free to Kaneez. So it's a little bit different than but she's obviously maintained it for so long and proven that she has is relevant still. So people want to hear from her. And even if it isn't a Daily Mail writing about her every single day, like she's in the media, she's newsworthy, and she has a lot of substance to her. So I think again, some education to brands sometimes it's been like he's what she's actually a bad. She actually engages the audience about but once they're so this,
is there an active way to rebrand or it's not even a rebrand, but a repositioning within. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's just being careful, like, who you align yourself with what causes what events and then how you portraying yourself online every single day. And with that consciously in mind, you can shift perceptions of you. Yeah,
well, if you ever do a stock take on your brand. Yeah, actually just starting now. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I could think about mine. I mean, it's probably better for you guys to do it, you know, normal. Yeah. But no one's doing it about the talent I've hit No. But if you were to say, we are all responsible for how people are perceiving us some respects we were influencing the way we're being sort of taken in by others. You've
had a rebrand it Jeff. Beck, even I think Jules pointed out like, you've gotten, like you were, I think positioned at the start when we started this podcast as the the larrikin. Yeah, the loose unit or whatever is still the case. Well, I think that America is moving to American I'm becoming more like Tommy Tommy's becoming more like me.
Like I think Michelle
or not I think they'd like wait like it's a maybe we don't have have to always be Tommy doesn't always have to be the larrikin babies being a dad you rebrand naturally from being a dad. Yeah, definitely. But I think like, the ability to, to realize that, like, I'm different, like a shepherd. And for instance, when you're in shepherd and doing the Breakfast Show, it's not like you're doing you know, begin to long interviews. And
there's a real learning that but we're productive the people we hang around and so like the we all develop, we have a chance to change because we've actually, internally if we generally think new things, we want to go down different paths. But I think my my brand if you call it was me, actually stepping over the hurdle of working out what the fuck I am bout as a person. And so you kind of end up there. And sometimes people land the reality shows. Yep. And then they work it out after Yeah, but there's been this
big PR push. Yeah.
When you're 100 kilos on an elephant. And that's
what you imagine if I was that if I'd gone on what was the show with the Bogan to go overseas? They do like recently
travel, travel logs and some Yeah, some reason I've had a current affair a lot on my TV at home.
I think it's like Bry is pushing back on my YouTube addiction. Okay, so why have I always have YouTube on specifically this guy named howard stern in the US? And so Brady always is like, Can we watch free to wear TV? And so there's been a lot of Tracy Grimshaw in my life and I YouTube Yeah. Yeah, there's 100% to push push back to that. But I don't know what I don't
know what the question was. Yeah, the one of the
so from a branding point, talking about the branding thing. How would you describe your brand?
This is so hard because I actually think you
know, I think as well cuz I launched in 2015. Like I said, and I was 24 when I launched the company, I launched my birthday. And birthday, my attain my warning sign is that I'm a Taurus. Taurus. very stubborn, headstrong. Yep, just like really good at thing. Okay. Yeah.
My dad thinks she's good at things. Yeah. And then self belief.
Yes, it's in the stars. I can't deny it. Yeah, it's hard. Because I think back then, as well, you care more about like superficial things. And you want to be going to like The Birdcage and the races and you want to go to the party Polo, which I still do that. But it's like, that would give me like, all the thrills and oh my god, I'm so cool. And hanging out with this person. I'm amazing. With a now you kind of grow up organically and then grow up in your business, but you get more secure in that and you're like, I don't really need to go to that event to have a good business model. I can just like hang out at home and still be okay. Like, for example, we just had the fashion festival vamp, which is like the Virgin Australia, Melbourne fashion festival last month. And I didn't go to any of the shows. But the usually I'd be like frosting on that and sitting front row and getting all the straight saw photographers like look at my cool outfit. And now I'm like, No, that's cool. Would you hit the jobs around it, like you guys can nail it, you can go and I'll just sit back here and just hang out on the couch.
same side of the drain, what's the fee that
would that's kinda like my personal brand
shape. So now I'm more like, but I think it's an internal shift.
But it also is reflected when like you are your business and you are your brand. So I think it's more about the business for me, I can kind of hide behind a management, not hide behind it, but just like have that being at the forefront is if more fulfillment in that then you saw in going to these events and getting that. Yeah, and I think I've always been really driven in like the business side of things. I've always wanted that kind of Korea push. So that's like a lot of satisfaction out of that, I think. And so that's very much my brand. Now I want to be saying is like the business authority on things as opposed to just being like someone at fun parties.
Are there people around you that are saying you're doing a disservice by not going to these events, you need to be at them, you need to be saying that, you
know, actually thank goodness, that doesn't happen. And I think I've gotten enough of established name in the industry and my company name that I don't have to go there all the time. In the beginning, it definitely was beneficial that I wasn't like everybody ripening and every movie premiere. It's like, hey, his main media wall again, like, my Instagram with my hand on my hip. So yeah, I think it's okay, now to kind of take a step back and just be the business. Yeah,
there's also like, what's cool, you know, when you're young? Yeah, it was very much I was in the same space of like, I thought, you know, being in all these events with these celebrities is like, by association, it's cool. But as you get older, it's like, going from school to you know, now it's like having a business is cool. Having responsibility. And yeah,
it's pretty cool. Yeah,
it does change, right? Like what's cool, is not
now cool, little still cool. And like, I don't want to be like really taking advantage of it and taking it for granted and thinking that yeah, it's nothing anymore. Like it's still really cool. Those events are awesome. And so uh, couches
comfy Yeah, you got a good couch. We have a really good couch. Yeah, I haven't invested in a good couch yet. I've sort of like it the sub thousand dollar counts.
As an investment
we have to make you I think like a good catch is probably around the $5,000.
We hit around the three came on yet again, like hustlers story. They delivered the wrong colored legs for us. It's all shit. Hold them up. And I'm like, What? We got like half the money back because of inconvenience or to wait like two and a half ways of the right legs that would still have the legs just went up color. And my boyfriend's just like mortified. He's like, stop calling them. Yes, it's okay. It's fine. I'm like it's not okay. We paid for this. We requested it. And we got like all this money back. Chris YouTube painting the assets? Yeah, well, I think Bry
Bry is more like that my girlfriend like she's at the moment like having that with our property manager will show what do you want? Well, because the air cut, we asked about the icon hasn't been working like what we've got three icons, just one of the rooms isn't working. And then I know it's a small apartment, we don't need it. So one of the icons isn't working. And one of the cupboards just flings open a little bit. And that was their start. And we mentioned it hasn't been fixed. But it all came to a head this month. Because
when you break it
up, break it break his beat, like she's like, I can't believe it. Like someone was meant to come out on Wednesday now once coming out or whatever, but just feel at the same time. I feel like there's a lot of energy that went into that from brazen where I'm just like, Can we just like if you if you imagine like mornings for like gratitude and meditation. I think that's one end of the spectrum. And then there's like, a big fuck you to the property manager. Yeah. And I feel like there's diminishing returns. Yeah, but I understand that it's not like, it doesn't bother me that much
as the winner like, I'm always gonna win. I'm like, how can I dominate the situation to get the result that I want? Yeah, I'll put all my energy in this. And everyone always teases me because like, you have so many things to worry about. Yeah. So busy. And this is what you're doing?
What is I mean, outside of the chair legs? What's a worry is a business owner for you? Because I think we all have them in different ways.
I mean, I think everyone's like, oh, what happens if Instagram dies tomorrow? like you'd be out of a job? What if
you don't tomorrow? So yeah,
I think you have to just trust the industry and that we look at the trends. And it's been just like doubling every single year for the last four years, which is awesome. And I'll pay period. It's kind of like September until June, which is most of the year is peak season. Yeah. Because of like a calendar events like spring racing, Carnival, and Christmas and Mother's Day and everything like that, and the fashion festivals. So I think just trusting that the work will come in as well as we proactively pitch for it and also landed that last little bit. So I think the easy to worry that sometimes when we have a quiet month what's gonna happen like, what if we don't make as much? But yeah, it's been really great. What
is this a patent that's happened like an eye for Josh and I, we can get in this moment where we're okay work. We need more with like, blah, blah, we should get a bit anxious about we get it all out. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, we get cold. Yeah, totally. But it's like, that's the patent that I've realized. And I know I've done it when I had my own businesses that see Matthew,
I think he can push and push. But unless people are ready to give you those things, campaign jobs, it doesn't make any difference. So as long as we're like, top of mind to them is definitely a lot of proactive work that happens just to be considered for a lot of work. But also, they'll be like, yeah, we'll talk to you when we're ready. Like, Jen, we know that you exist. It's okay. Like, calm down. You want these balls up in the air.
And I think that's what you sign up for as a business owner. Right?
Totally. And like having stopped it stressful. You could have pay the wages, and they're super, and you've got costs of rent and equipment and everything. So there's definitely like hard costs to consider. But I'm less stress now than it was when I started Fishel.
Was it a big jump for you getting an office space? Yeah,
I used to work from home and that was just it was the best slash the words. Like I was the person that like, you know, in Game of Thrones came out like 11am on a Tuesday. I was like, perfect. Here we go. Like I watch it straight away.
counseling is on perfect, but I'll deal with it.
But it was more like for my bed. Like why late? I'm already here at the laptop spine. So yeah, I work from home a lot. And it wasn't super productive. And I'm good. Like a cafe sometimes like wow, like a lot of work done there. Yeah. So I do love the office for that and kind of walking, walking in the howdy meeting spaces and stuff. It's a lot better than my home.
Do you like nostalgia? Do you get nostalgic about things?
I mean, yeah, I think we all do a little bit 90s baby. Yeah,
cuz Tommy's not really into talking about school.
thing I'm in the
waiting to bring up the and just go sorry, the HIV. Yeah.
how did you go? really well.
actually understand this guy when I really feel for you. Because my parents told me to take my into school off the fridge. They will like honey was so proud of you. But it's January.
January, that would have been like two years later, like January is not that long. Something what do you what did you get?
Well, it's embarrassing to say it like it's 10 years ago, but like 98.5 5.55
Well, the guys shooting my my sister got 99.25 so you know, so annoyance. The two of us. I also want the humanities prize.
What is our get? a?
Yes, Zara and Michelle both got in 1990
Well, they had it on their LinkedIn and I did a LinkedIn Stoke, and then they took
down. Yeah, well, that's about it. Yeah. That's why I need a
brand like a rebranding. Yeah.
You were telling us before though, that at the age of 15, you were in some form of true pack and just imagine like, you know, in South Korea, they have the big bike. Dancing groups. Yeah.
They got cuna. That's North Korea.
Oh, yeah. I get confused too. Yeah. North and South. No, no. So it covers a little past life. People don't really know this about me. But when I explain it, they're like, we're not surprised. Yeah. So I did a lot of like performing arts and musical theatre growing up and I was also dance captain and you're 12 It's fun. And I did like the Young Australian Broadway chorus why they say for those playing at home. And so when I was 15, I like to hit America with why they say we toured this musical across the states and I performed at Disney World in Orlando, Florida. What was the musical? He was called the silver donkey.
Were you the silver donkey? Oh, no, no.
She then went on to do like I'm going away and she was on Dancing with the Stars and Ashton a TV show in the state. So I'm like pretty good caliber
of people. How long was the the home to?
I think it was three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So I missed a week is School, which is pretty wild. Let's do nothing but cost your parents
a shitload of money. Yeah. Well, my exposure,
it's totally fine. Yeah.
And these are the investments parents have to make it.
I went to a poverty school. So we didn't have we didn't get to go to the school spectacular thing. Oh, were you one of those schools? School spectacular.
spectacular. We did our own performing arts festival called path
No, but it was pretty fun. We all had like a house dance competitions. And we won a few of them. And then obviously was robbed one year I didn't win. And I was described to me, one of the teachers was like, Oh, sorry, Jenna. It's a bit like quicksand. They were just all sucking you down with them?
No, it's a great activity.
What was what was university like you attempt? Do you think you're a team player, or a more of an individual?
See you it was hard, because I already had a full time job in PR. So I started working in PR when I was 18. I went straight from school into this internship. And I did like really manual task. In the beginning, I was like packing out press kits and getting coffee and stuff. And they got me to help out with some copywriting. And we're like, oh, you know, at half bad. And they got me back three more days of the week and everything. So I kind of evolved into doing part time work there during my degree at MIT. And then I was working like full time and people in annual leave. And so I kind of didn't care about uni that much. So that being a class like a he's a writer meteorologist and I'm like yet I know. So it was it was kind of hard. I didn't do as well at uni, which is like tough my parent but you finished? Yeah,
absolutely. Seniors tonight, seven in last three months. What
do you mean?
Three months or two months down to last? Six months?
With us just to be playing business degrees.
Okay. Yeah, it's a similar route. He took the internship now he works full time with us. Yeah.
But when you're when you're hiring people, boom, what are you looking for?
Oh, my gosh, stuff are really hot. It's it's tricky, because this skill set isn't always like on paper, what it's going to be and, you know, I came from a PR background and some people who come from that PR background on that kind of like hustling savvy sales that we need really two types
of PR isn't there. Like it's actually like pay a can make me cringe in some regards. And then you have the like, I almost feel like what you're doing, you can't even call PR any monster has so many sort of you just remember one PR person said I just do the rah rah.
the rah rah. And I was like, yeah, you are just the raw raw, but I don't think that that's what you need to do. In this day and age. You can't just be raw raw,
and there's a lot of just like, oh, let's throw an event and invite some models down and like we've launched your brand so we did a lot more like this strategy and then media pitching and we did a lot of like media familiars, which is a familiarization trip to like hotels, I worked for a lot of luxury hotels and actually hosted one of the first like, domain is what it was cold. I think I was like 23 or 22 maybe I went to Bali and it's just me by myself with this five star resort chain. And we have like Lindy claim Nadia, tell tell he was there. So it was kind of celebrities. And I was like, Hi, I'm Welcome to Bali, please Instagram this hotel. Yeah. And that was kind of a job. So it was Yeah, really integrated with like old school, print media and social media as well with the degrees now that you can get university like the PR degrees. How much do you think they are relevant? Because I didn't know that was Mr. 97. annoyances that a marketing degree is taught by old school heads that have no idea about the new
Yeah, the new media spies.
That's why it is good, because it will actually in the industry, and they actually had doing stuff in real time. They don't just like 20 years ago, I wrote a media release. And so yeah, look, I think it's nice to have the piece of paper. I'm glad I've got the piece of paper. But that being said, the fact that I had the experience got me where I am. Do you look for the piece of paper in hiring. I'm not really nice. Maybe I'm a hypocrite. Oh, I think I just want someone quite savvy and noisy industry noise, the trends. So they like following lots of influences. And they can say what's cool and what's coming up. That's more important to me than someone that's like, Oh, I did like 75 monsters.
There's an intuitive nature to
Yeah, totally. Well, yeah. I might just be cool. The whole have your finger on the pulse. That's it.
What's What's your relationship with free shit? Do you like it? Yeah.
Is there being something like, as I know that, you know, brands can send people things all the time? Yeah. And it's not necessarily expected that they say something about it or whatever. But it's a nice, nice to have I know Bry working in a chocolate business. It's like, she knows that there's people who have influence or not even have influence, but people that she just likes who she thinks will like the brand. Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily matter with like, she never has the expectation that it's going to be posted about. And that's what's like, quite weird, because it's like, she's talking later in the week to some people about like, how she doesn't it's like, well, you just sort of like, have to be friends with people. People things and not expect anything. Yeah.
And she actually sent some stuff to our office, I stopped term. And so we were like, oh, why we random package from this company for the roads of Melbourne? Yeah. And then we give it to them. And I'm like, you don't have to post anything. They're not paying us. Yeah. And they did anyway, of course. Yeah. So it's kind of hard. It's if it's a good alignment, you can send in free stuff and get free coverage. We usually just say like, Look this so busy, and they have so much sponsored content to shoot as well. We can't guarantee if you're just going to send us a gift that we just did. And so yeah, a lot of brands if they want specific exposure, they would have called us for the money. Chocolate. Brian's is so good because they experiential, right? So break it into people who are like, they might have a digital product. It's like really fucking hard if you've got it. Yeah, because
it's so good. The chocolate you could eat it before you post it out.
You have the expectation. I remember Holden contacted me and I did this hot I used to have a blog called Melbourne geek. Okay, and I finished it in like 2012 and then two years ago, so it would have been 27. And they contacted me and said, Hey, we want to send you to the Yarra Valley. And to do like content. I was like, Hey, I haven't posted on here in the US or whatever. And they're like, if you just post on Instagram like that, I've got like, I didn't know following at the time, it was just it was a bit of a it felt like it just felt like a bit of a joke. From my point of view.
Don't do it. Don't beat yourself up. They needed to spend Okay, it was a weird
thing to remember how weird it was
very vague on the details. Because
I was vague on the deal. I had no idea what was going on my car company sending me to a vineyard like to us
the driving. Yeah.
Things like that. So thank you, Holden, by the way, the
Astra beautiful car. Very good. Yeah.
Frank body or business built themselves around that sending out free stuff. Yeah. Is that is that on its way out. In terms of the model of how Frank body
I mean, it depends who you're targeting, like they they do pay our influences because they're not going to get cut through to them for free. Like it's not enough for a $20 body scrub no matter how good it is. And so I think they recognize that can send it out to some talent who just be like cool, I love free stuff. Thank you so much. And then our kind of more higher end top tier people they require payment so yeah, yeah, the brands have recognized no matter how cool you are, no matter how much like a cult status that they have to pay,
I think you're in a great vantage point to see what works from a branding perspective as far as a product and and what user generated content will actually come from it and then seeing what influences will do what I'm willing to do a you get your eyes on, like creating some kind of product or you know, offering some kind of product in the future.
Interesting. You say that I haven't been very public about this, but I kind of over Christmas, I took two weeks off sounds like an exclusive.
Quiet. Can we get like a vertical video
so I had two weeks off, have a great, so I'm like, cool. I'm going to start a second business. Because what's time off? How boring. So I launched like this little jewelry label with my partner. And it's just like, you know, everyone's wearing this eclipse at the moment. That's my brand. gronk Yeah, so I got all my talent to wear it. I just like giving them some free stuff and being like, Hey, no pressure, if you like it, wear it, don't worry about it. And they all kind of wore to the fashion festival and the shameless goes work their live shows. And it's been everywhere. And it's really funny to see like the real impact from that. of them just posting about it really organically like even in the Instagram story. q amp a just being like a What are your favorite jewelry products, like oh, create a jewelry, that's the name go follow it. Yeah.
And so from that we got like 300 followers instantly. And you know, all these sales or like teli didn't unboxing of these two products. And they sold as is actually a product in five minutes time. So it's kind of cool to see that in real life case study. But it's something like a little passion project for me like I think,
I think it makes you a better manager, though it makes you a better marketer, you understand the the landscape more
totally, I think down the track, we'd love to do it for our influences, like giving them a product range they can own and push as well, which some talent have done in their own, like a step quest myth can have their own brands, as well as keep it cleaner. So it's Yeah, it's almost little trial and error that will do it for me first and see how it goes into it for them down the track.
The idea of taking getting stuff for free from brands, it's a bit of a bit of a paradox as well, in regards to when you having influence means suggesting things that you believe in, not just when you're getting paid for sure. So like as I foster Blake, I think is a great example of that, where she has built a business based on recommendations of things that she loves. And you can tell that like 99% of the things that she's posting about, she's not getting paid for it. They're book recommendations, whatever it is, but that then gives her that 1% of cloud where it's like she's influencing the purchase decision for people to then when she does have a right branding do can do that. Is that a balance where it's like, okay, you need to not just be posting about shit you're getting paid for, we need to have organic content as well,
definitely. And then we say notice so many jobs that come in, and we get so many really questionable things or things just aren't right. Like, for example, teli doesn't drink coffee. So when someone's like, oh McKenna wants to work with you. She's like, I don't drink coffee, and I'm gonna do that. And yeah, it definitely helps them when I do flog something, I shouldn't say flop, but they do promote something authentically, and it gives them more like gravitas, then. But we definitely think even more in the family space, like how family talent they have to share, like every bit of their life, because I get criticized quite a lot for putting the kids in photos and you know, monetizing their children, somebody posting every single thing about them. And it's a lot easier to believe that recommendations because it is authentic, and it is true. And if I share everything, and I happen to be at a certain activation wearing something that day, it's believable.
Do you have a certain filter set that you use around with certain talent that you have around? They're not going to accept things based on maybe it's like ethical stuff. So what's going on, it's got to be vegan, or it's got to be this
way. And I think it's very case by case like some people are like, hey, it's my full time job I want to make bank that's my prerogative is other people want to do like they want to fast fashion brands, or other people want to do really ethical things as well. So it is a real mix there. We have a couple of vegans and stuff. So they won't do as many like leather brands, for example. So yeah, it's very case by case and we can't have like a blanket rule for everybody, because everyone has different stances on things.
Do you have any experience in crisis comes?
Oh, my gosh, yes. Well, I used to work in a situation with
what's the brain?
I mean, what is the because I guess that's part of it. When you're dealing with a bunch of talent, things can sometimes go wrong, even things could happen with brands that then negatively affect Oh,
my gosh, it's all the time. Yeah, I'm putting out fires constantly. And that's just like part of the job and it keeps it exciting, but also keeps me so tired. And even my background, like when I was working for this hotel chain, like someone got murdered at the hotel, and I was the first person that they called. And they were like, Hi, can you give us a comment on this person? And I'm like, Oh, that's what I shouldn't be doing.
The team working at the Hollywood. The Beverly Hills Hotel, like mentioned that. Yeah,
totally on the ground American team that are just living in LA. Yeah, to go to work. And the next minute there's a boycott in their hotel. Yeah,
exactly. So that was like crisis comes like on steroids. Yeah. Now in comparison to that it's a lot easier. It's like oh, someone's got like a naughty photo circulating or someone did like an interesting Instagram story like drinking in a car and that they weren't drinking and driving but it looks like that. So there's always things to be like monitoring and it's hard because it's their personalities and it's what they're sharing their sharing so much they share the wrong thing. It does happen sometimes we have to be ready for that
direction. The general public as normals we lack do we lack empathy for
Yes. 100 social media? Yeah, talented. A friend of mine was actually saying that she went to message like an instrument influences photo to her friend and wrote a main comment but accidentally sent it to the influence on she was telling me this story like how funny I said foot face and I sent it to the influencer and she replied, like, thanks for your feedback. But her stance is like What a bitch replying to me and like, you just called her a full face. I'm like, That's so cool. Anyone that why would you put that in writing? Even if you do think it? And so something like that? I would just never do cuz I know them person. What? What requires it to be a foot face?
and narrow face? I must have got toes on the head. I feel like
Yeah, no, it's really hard. Yeah.
Well, I think like social media. I have retired from it. Yeah. And part of the reason is, because I know that I was all of a sudden, I'd feel negatively towards people that I actually like, and I'm just like, you know what, in the social media world, you're a bit of a fucking pain in the ass. But I had to reflect and be like, Oh, that's on me to my interpretation of it. And so I was like, I'm better off being offer.
And if you're in it, you have more empathy, because you say how hard they work. And you see that they're really nice people, but I do get me so if I can annoying outside, and I'm sure I've lost plenty of followers, and I'm posting I'm like, I'm in the Amazon today. And like he has me doing speaking and a podcast or whatever it is. And like people don't want to say that. They're like, shut up. How annoying. And I've unfold a lot of people as well. Like my mental health. Yeah, like I got super competitive. And so I was following like all my competitors and everyone in the industry, and it just wasn't, like healthy for me. So I unfolded it announced my employees job to do that competitor analysis. Yeah.
Well, that's the problem. Right? Seriously?
Well, when you're in the business of it, you can easily say this is competitor analysis versus hike following. Yeah, totally.
It's pretty, like what are you doing? Every single day?
And I've got a spreadsheet? Yes. Business. Yeah.
A lot of people lead with negative I mean, you can it's like a trigger. Where's it come from? Do you think is it that people like Wayne on enough, it makes us feel something when we look at someone and then have a negative spin on it, like it mean, you're saying negative articles written within that is sort of talking about different issues happening, and it's an a juicy and they were interesting. It's like, we have this news filter of going where's the headline in this is sort of with a negative spin. We tell stories, I think as well about different people in our own heads. But then we also, we try and say, This is what I think of their truth is, but I think that they're actually doing x y Zed like my favorite thing to do is to look at that and say they're posting this by can see a little bit of sadness in their eyes. I mean Josh is not she's not the ideal person for the man based on he has no getting off social media, and what's your thoughts around your talent, your influences and their relationship with the thing that he's your business? You know, like, it's a
I mean, they have to like respect the process and not bite the hand that feeds you, I think and they come out and like it's such an ugly place. like everyone's so negative in social media, but he's made with Bundaberg shampoo, like it's a balance there i think but a lot of them and really great about it and they understand that it is what they do full time it's their job and they need to respected and respect with that posting for the brands as well now I'm personal brand and then for us if we're selling them out bad I need to be like, I guess it's hard to explain to have to just be cooperating with us and making sure that banner going rogue and going crazy, even if they want to. We want to be in the same team
as the other hand, is there these conversations you're having? You know, yeah, yeah.
And some of them I know that you think it's funny to post that but it's not and it's going to affect what we're selling and for you and so no affect the jobs that you get? And some of them are just young that don't realize that Oh, like we had someone who is an ambassador at the Rice's get a little bit too tipsy. And I'm like I get it it's really fun and it's expensive champagne that you're getting for free like how good but at the same time you're a brand ambassador being interviewed by Elle Magazine, like hold it together. Sorry, there's a lot of that as well that they need to kind of keep in mind it's work and I do forget that sometimes it'd be so easy to forget it Yeah. How do
you talk to your team and also all the talent to have like a Slack channel something or like oh we have like a holiday group text? Yeah, yeah,
we like SMS a lot
yeah running Android or something really great bubbling is it all
my my like family talent in like the 40 plus green bubble me Yeah, well
yeah, nobody currently working out what the fuck a green bubble is Yeah, I don't get it you
know it only affects us on our side
we got a green bubble over here. Mr. 97 Yeah,
really? Change that
number one yeah. blue bubble blue bubble. Yeah.
blue bubble management that's
putting in name in your business. Yeah, was that an easy decision? Like how much what strategy
yeah Genevieve day Yeah, ma Adi is grind happy you don't get it? Yeah. Everyone's like, Oh, do you work at night time? Really? It's the West it's
a good filter.
There's not many like I don't think all last names work. Business jack. Very lucky. Think jacket productions. It sounds a bit see making. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's not ideal.
It's good day. My name like my you top jumper was like good. A guy is a runs. Good a management?
to us. Yeah. Has that vibe. Has there been any learning with so shameless, for instance, Michelle and Zara, they can monetize their thoughts and ideas, and their commentating on different things in the world, which is slightly different to say, other talent there on Instagram. So what, what do you need to do as a manager of that? Like, what do you say your responsibility? How much coaching or conversations I had around? We have
a lot of a lot of group chat, the three of us actually bubbles, a lot of labels. It's always how do we walk the line? Like what can we sell? And when do we draw the line to not sell so much to that audience? Like how do we phrase that in a way that's still encouraging the community without always just like promoting a brand them and so we just had a lot of conversations about it. And even like last week, I'm like, hey, they want to do this in the podcast, and, you know, kind of have some influence over the questions you asked your guest. I think it was like not That's too much. That's that's another kind of jeopardize everything. Somewhat cool. No worries wouldn't do it. Yeah. So I think again, that's interesting. Right? To say no to things that's not quite right, in the long term will have more longevity and more partnerships to come. Yeah,
that idea of Brian's and putting, you know, putting in questions and shit, that's pretty
Yeah, it's it's hard, isn't it? It's
so high. And it's because like, they have a massive audience because they are authentic and real about it. So to then come in now and change everything. Yeah, that is loser. Well, there's, I've always thought like, you know, the the what, I want my relationship with brands who are paying me to do something. Oh, yeah, he's, he's the money you go and do what you want. Totally. It doesn't come straightaway. So as they are time where you are actually saying yesterday, outfits, like, usually wouldn't, but we need to build here. Your management hat sounds like I went, it
was so hard to I reckon that's a hard one to say, right? Because you're building an authentic or you're trying to build an audience on authenticity. It's probably a spectrum, right? Yeah. Because there's this what you're describing TJ sounds like the sound was a sellout. And then there's the fucking like,
there's also building it. You don't have you if you want to brand Do you? He's our requirements. Not the luxury isn't always the aspiration on that. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
And then there's probably like the middle where
some people want to sell out some people, I don't care what the cash. And then my favorite type of people don't like yes, commission. So it's a little bit different in that sense. But yeah, I think we get into the question all the time, we're never going to be like, you have to promote this blue ribbon on screen like he breaks already signs, you have to do it. It's more like, Hey, here's what I want from you. Here's how we could maybe make it work. Is it a bit left to center? Is it too far? Can we do it? Maybe not? Do you think this the daily
talk show? Do you think we're brand friendly? Or do you think it like it? Because we're not? Is
that why? why I'm here? Yeah, exactly.
This is the This place is? I'm curious as to like, what the outside perspective is, in regards to this, this type of thing? Are there certain things that you like, this is brand friendly? This is not saying fuck a lot in the show. Does that actually is it? Yeah, yeah,
I got told off will not make it I got told from a brand that one of our audiences had talent audiences, I swear too much. And then in the comments, the audience were too much. And like, we can't control that. And so it's all this like language stuff. And it was a big company. It was global. And like, we just can't risk it. Yeah, it's just too too crazy. Too much liability, that
ability, I think would have too much liability.
That's part of it. But some people love that like all this. So real. like nobody language. Yeah.
And so is there. Are there things within say podcasts or media brands? Where it's just like, how do you become brand friendly? What are the G needed? Because the way we're not brand friendly? We don't necessarily like communicate what the show is. Yeah, we don't. I don't personally have the what we don't necessarily have a great way of describing what we are as a show Maggie.
Generally brainstorm it now. Yeah, we could we can always
but what are some of those? What are some of the key things that you need to do to play in? Yeah,
I think really clear audience of who you're talking to your target market for that, and then match it up with a brand's target market. So if you're selling, you know, trying to do is what is your audience with?
I think like it, the podcast stuff is harder to say. But on YouTube, it says we're 100%. Male. But that's, that's because it's such a small.
I think we have quite a big female audience on our podcast. Yeah. I think
it's like psycho graphics rather than demographics. I think the types of people are people who are free thinking, who have creative business analysts who they know they work on their own. Yeah, that's hapa young
millennials. Yeah, I think you have to match that up with the same type of brands at times, I'm in that same audience. And that's how you make it kind of consumer friendly. That's talking the same messaging. And then you guys do fun things like you're fat Friday, so easily sold. Yeah. And a little like gimmicks like that, that really makes it easy to explain what you're doing and the whole message behind it that makes it really easy to sell.
What do you think about young people who want to become influencers as a job? Or youtubers? I
get so many emails from them, too.
That's the new thing. Yeah. When we were young was what do you want to be famous? Yeah,
I want to be on Nickelodeon. Now. It's, I want to
be a YouTuber. I want to be a gamer. Yeah, that's what
I get a lot of emails from kids that are like, 1516. I have like 2000 followers, like, okay, I want you to be my manager. Like, you're gonna be my agent. And I'm like, Hi, if I have more followers than you?
Because I don't have very many with the joke there. So yeah, I think it's really interesting that they all want that, but they're not really that I had to put the work in, like a school implemented.
Woman This is your entrepreneurial head on. Yeah. I mean, it's like a Josh gets to a all business of his hundreds a year. People, like just people reaching out, but and it's like, we look at that and think there is something to assist them in some way. Yeah. If you can't hire or you can't manage all of them. There's a piece of work that needs to be done now find their journey.
So we might try but maybe maybe that's what tried. Like, it's for the not everyone like because that is a I guess a platform that allows people to sort of
fit the normal. Yeah,
these is for the normals in like, everyone's gonna grow into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
That's what the tapping into my right
like nine tenths of a book about this. haven't touched it for you. And I know
if it's if it was 100 pages, you wrote 90. Yeah,
it wasn't 100 pages. It might have been 10.
What's it was that funny, Mr. 97? I was just thinking about the prophecy mad Josh Ah, yes, I'm, I've got a promise to rewrite Seth Godin, who's the author Tommy mentioned? Yeah, he's entitled, we went to New York and interviewed him, and he was my idol. So it was like a very big deal. He's big in the marketing space. But anyway, yeah, I've gotten need to rewrite his book. That's another thing. Anyway, so you got through the book, but so it's not 90% done. Yeah.
And it's kind of for those people who were like, I want to be an influence. I want to be Instagram famous. And it was just really basic, like, we have to do a media kit, and how do you price what you're doing. And here's how you approach a brand. Rather than just being like, give me free stuff and pay me to like, solve a problem for them. It's like, Oh, I understand that fashion week's coming up, I'd love to profile your brand in this amazing opportunity. So just that kind of like language tips, how you pitch yourself and yeah, be a bit more savvy about it. But I just never released it.
What's the biggest mistake that people making in the space? Do you think?
There's so many? No, I think that Yeah, selling out. It's a big one. It's hard to come back from that. And if you go too far, one end of the spectrum, you can't really get that authenticity back. And the trust from your audience is really valuable. If you lose that it's gone. And I think
what would selling out look like? Is me wearing each pig, which is the brand yesterday, there you go pick up this jumper for
a plug, you would have to make money to be selling it. Yes. That's the main thing or
selling your soul?
So what is the what would that would be an example of
the people that hold up a product mix of their face and have a selfie with like a really random? doesn't really make sense. It makes your face and like I love this product. what's what's crazy. He's like, it blends in now. Like they were showing much of that. They're just like, fucking I don't even register it. I just keep scrolling. Yeah, and people get so mad about that. They're like, Oh, there's so many ads. Now. I'm like, yeah, I'm like a magazine has always been ads in a magazine. Yeah, you can choose to engage that way you can choose from follow in whatever
way in that article. Facebook is saying that there is no algorithm. There's no, I said, I was saying there wasn't. It wasn't what they say.
You read the right article, but it was really another one. But Instagram have literally said, there's no algorithm, there's no, there's no change that what everyone thinks is the change hasn't made it. So
there's a chat, there was a change. And regarding adding an algorithm, what people loved about Instagram was it was this free feed of everyone.
We thought it was it
was it was for a bunch of time. But I guess the the risk is that there's like there's a number that when you follow over certain amount of people, it just becomes too much, which I think is a bit of bullshit because I feel like we can self manage. Right? We can unfollow people, right, that sort of thing. But yeah, it is a from an advertising perspective. I guess it's, it's a lot stickier when it's and there's a lot more FIFO built if you're like, I don't actually know where this feed if I knew that if I scroll to Mike, I'm at 10am. Yeah, this morning, or whatever. I know, I've reached that amount versus I can be scrolling and say something refreshing
every like five seconds. Yeah, we all do.
What's the inferior with influences? I'm on that
this is the problem. I'm on the daily talk show like Instagram. And so I have gone so hard on that. And so my Instagram is time is that the highest it's ever best?
Okay. Influence African last question. I don't read friendly. Right. Yeah,
I'll media train you. It's fine. Yeah.
And what's your What? He's relationship with you? Fine.
Oh, look. It's the whole like the screen time app. I need to delete that I wasn't updating my iOS software for that very reason. What's your screen time? Like? I do not want to know that. Yeah. And yeah, it's high. It's really,
that's a way around. It's like you can either delete the app. So taking the time or
delete delete screen time. Yeah, yeah,
I got my question goes. influences how much Just be cool about how much does? I just don't want to fuck?
Mind James, they both interrupting.
Very similar, don't panic. So influence.
Influences spending time, because I think it's now business, it is their business. So they've got this point where they do this thing, or they find this passion. And they start sharing moments. Yeah. And they grow an audience. But then they realize, okay, now make money from it, how much you influencing them to or encouraging them to stick out the thing that got them to where they are versus go down this obsession with making money as much as you want to make money? Yeah,
it's a balance. Like it has to be both to be commercial. If you're super creative, and I'm making money. That's great. But don't waste my time doing that. Yeah. And so it's definitely a balancing act, you have to be true to the reason why payment followed you in the first place. But also have, you know, use that platform that you've got, and then use it for brands? So I think you can do both without offending people. I think it's definitely hard to walk the line for that, though. Oh, yeah.
I mean, we've had guests on the show that sort of built an audience around a specific niche, but then was like, don't really like that nice. Yeah, not really into that as much. You don't want to be that guy anymore. Yeah,
we had one of our girls, her blog and Instagram page used to be called a bright girls blog. And then she rebranded just to her name,
her name, and then it kind of was like everyone, because I wanted to change fines. And so she still does like outfits under $100. And he said that to kind of get that audience interaction she had built, but at the same time, now she's like, well, I can afford things. So I'm always nice things to
you doing in the thing within your business, that doesn't make financial sense for you to do right at this moment. I mean, on this show, yeah. You're wasting your time.
Outside of that, like,
because I guess, like you can look at a very transactional transaction and also think, but what's one of those things where it's like, actually, we're taking a bit because the financial rewards not there yet.
It's kind of I'm very lucky in the sense that no question and I really love what I do. And so I don't have to make a choice. I know my passions over here. My profits over there actually passion to profit was named able
to have the domain name, no. passion to profit. He just bought it. He's a robot. I think
it'll never get released. I'll never finish it. It's fine. nine tenths is just too much.
But you should get domain anyway. I could imagine like a keynote. You have any interest in like building your influence?
You're talking in 2010?
Talking right, you talk in March, I spoke about like, what goes on behind the scenes at Fashion Week, I'm talking next month, as well as into profit wasn't passion to profit. And you guys are talking with a couple of influences next month, about just like female entrepreneurship, and digital marketing. And it's funny because they all go there. And they're like, the inspiring stories that bringing the crowds of hundreds and I'm like, Hi, guys. It's just going on. It's gonna be like a different crowd. But yeah, it's kind of fun. I like doing that part of it. And it goes back to my like, performing roots a little bit, but I'm not too fussed about my personal brand. So there's gonna be dance in it. Oh, yeah. High kicks.
Every sorry. Good. You should
actually like started doing casual dance class again with my friends. Like
I didn't have a casual. Yeah,
well, not really. I'm always at the front. Still my friends like Yo, take it easy. Where do you go to the space? Oh, yeah, podcast.
And I did do that Broadway.
We did a lot of a lot of everything.
Broadway jazz. What does that man?
What a hands we dance like Broadway. Cheering Oh, that's fun. It's really live actually. We're doing hip hop on Tuesday nights, my friends and I and I didn't dance like 10 years. And I get told off every single class for being like too rigid. And to Jazzy, really?
rigid and jazzy. Should be your Instagram by
that actually described me.
Is the Is there any aspiration to have offices outside of Melbourne outside of Australia?
Oh, we have talent in Sydney, Brisbane, LA, New York. So maybe Yeah, I don't know. I always said in the beginning, I wasn't gonna have any stuff. And now I have full and so I might say no now and in two years time
you have for office?
Have a place for them. But I guess there's the
balance of working spaces and shit. Like,
what have you worked out? What you? Have you worked out what your success looks like?
Not really, I think,
because I think some people can end up with four offices and realize that that's not the success that they want
the same thing as going to the events, right? Like the the same idea in your head that going to the event is what I need is probably the same part, which is like I need an office in LA and sit. Yeah,
and doesn't always mean we do Josh actually. Yeah, I mean, like, you can make more money being in your bedroom, doing it by yourself sometimes then having like, 25 stuff. So it's kind of always a balancing act like Does it mean that I'll be more profitable, or I'll just look better on the outside to other people. So it's kind of weighing it up, like where the energy goes. And the return to that as well is a bit tricky. So at the moment, I'm happy just to like on Melbourne, a bit of Sydney, Brisbane. And we'll see maybe in the future, okay,
it's good. I mean, the flexibility you hear low overheads. Yeah,
mean, full time employees, low overheads compared to office in New York. Totally. A whole bloody and I've been rained
out Absolutely. Unless you Jolson, and you went to primary school? Yeah. Yeah.
Like every article that I do, as well, like when? Yeah,
this is great. Now, I think is there. So there is a bit of a movement to get yourself out there and all that sort of thing. Yeah,
it kind of happens organically, which is nice. And I don't want to be saying like I'm pushing. Because I'm so not the talent. And so that's, that's such a
talent thing to say.
You're a piece of the pie, like, you know, you've got I think that's where you will come in where there's a non business savvy person who is like, I've got no idea but I've built this thing intuitively, the empathy,
the empathy, just like having, you know, the the side hustle or whatever of you know, doing the clips is Yeah, another example of that.
The I was gonna ask somebody was just
like a bit of fun as well. I think when it's not fun anymore into like, raging things. I'm lucky in a sense of the industry have grown. So my company's grown like astronomically. And then if I had to pivot and shift I totally can. But for now, it's doing really well. That's it is
that so I was gonna ask I age has age ever been a barrier in this whole thing for you? Yeah,
a little bit. It's always a fun talking point, like I launched at 24. And still kind of being 20. Almost 28. So yeah, it's kind of a nice talking point. And I'm lucky in the industry. There's a lot of young females around I can still be older than my talent. Well, most of them, but then I get a lot of like, wine co businessmen. You talk down to me. Really? Yeah, all the time.
You have a way of disarming that.
No, I'm pretty
finished with jazz. Yeah,
no, I'm pretty sassy and I think that I'm more than happy to I baby argumentative if I need to, like get my point across. I'm not gonna be a doormat. I just have one guy like threaten to sue me my first year or something. And he was like about the couch legs. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm so sorry.
He was like I hope you got a deep pockets and and thank you for all your work. I think I just said like, fucking tried team and hung up the phone. And obviously he didn't so it's fine. But yeah, all the time, like threats and everything. And yeah, people just trying to sit there with already in their power. And you just gotta shake it off.
Shake it off. That's a song. Yeah.
Shake it up. Shake it off. Shake it off. Yeah.
Okay. The Daily talk show. Genevieve it would be great to have you back on thank
you so much for having me in the future as well. Yeah,
we're dying, dying management
and please consider Mr. 97
so we'll chat affair some tips that you haven't got it
does help sorry. Hi. The dough
is hope. show.com is our email if you want to send us an email Mr. 97 looks after I email which is which is good. So people get responses and shall we say tomorrow guys say guys