- March 22, 2019
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show we’re joined by our mates Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews. Zara and Michelle host the Shameless podcast, the pop-culture podcast for smart women who love dumb stuff.
Dealing with podcast feedback
Zara’s bad habit
Going from journalism to podcasting, the Shameless Podcast story
A Fat Fridays surprise
Josh’s obsession with domain names
What’s next for the Shameless podcast
The Shameless podcast:
Michelle on Instagram:
Zara on Instagram:
Watch today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show podcast at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n_MdM1t6DY
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A conversation sometimes worth recording with mates Tommy Jackett & Josh Janssen. Each weekday, Tommy & Josh chat about life, creativity, business and relationships — big questions and banter. Regularly visited by guests and friends of the show! This is The Daily Talk Show.
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Daily Talk Show Episode 309 little squished episode. This one.
First time we've got four people, including us. We've got shameless Michelle and Zara.
Thank you so glad to be here. Hello.
We are people who don't know shameless. The podcast for smart women who like dumb shit.
It's very close. And you guys are some of our internet friends. We've had so many internet friends on the show where we've we've met online and now we're in the same room
and none of us were catfishing Yes, yes, I feel a little bit.
Mr. 97 might be at some point. But you may have seen the shameless girls helping out might miss 97 find love.
And you're welcome Mr. 97
Well, way that was a head you put it the
Definitely had that. That vibe, but it feels like the beginning. 97 doesn't have a microphone because we're all miked up
Yeah. Sorry, buddy.
The Silent Assassin.
Exactly. But he's he's gone on to date. We can we can say that.
I can't tell you how proud I am. Mason. I feel like we were inundated with hundreds and hundreds of women who wanted to go on dates with you. The problem was so many of them are too old. Yeah, I feel like God Damn, I was slightly older, the 19. But we did find a couple of gems. I feel like
do you think there's like people are in relationships, young men sort of slipping out at 24? Because they're like, I need to develop myself in this young relationship. And I
one of my friends, Michelle. Ok. So the baby long term now they're breaking out?
Yes. A lot of people get to 24 or 25. And then sort of realize what's next? Yeah,
yeah. Well, my brother was in UT Josh, my brother met his partner, his wife, who they've got two kids now, when they were like, 17. And I feel like they weathered the storm of just growing up and finding yourself Korea. And they got through it.
Yeah, well, now different. Like you, when you like, when I looked like when I was 17 on an animal, an elephant. Actually, I was actually 21 on the elephant. We need to post that photo again. But compared to now, like it's crazy. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of, but you also become more similar, I reckon to
like as well. Isn't there that theory of the 70? Ah, yeah, sorry, if you're getting together at 17. So many people would be breaking up around 24. Because if that typical timeline when things get really tricky, and when you're that young, you're probably like, fuck it. I can't be bothered making this work. Whereas when you're older, and you've got kids and stuff, you just stick it out.
I hope I'm not discouraging myself from finding a wife now. Yeah, find a wife now me perfect. So made seven. Yes, I'll
be it's more old school. It's commendable. Think about like our parents generation. There's a lot more people that got together young and one love. And then they just went to one love the nightclub and never found love. Mom and Dad,
to we were talking just before we started about some friction that people thought that they were seeing within your podcast.
And then we're talking about Josh and I, we've discussed in length the blow ups we've had, but I think it is the fundamentals of you know, how, you know, partnership, where we have blow ups we get through them. But what what's been said about you girls recently in some of the comments sections,
and it's funny you asked this because this we were going to talk about catfights on this week's episode generally like in the public eye and how when women are disagreeing with each other, they almost always afraid in the same way. And then most recently, we've had a lot of feedback from people who I have very surprised that we disagree with each other on the show. It was like overwhelming amount of feedback with people saying it's amazing that you guys disagree with each other, which is so surprising to me that that is something to even comment on. And secondly, that when we disagree, some people find find it very jarring to the point where they don't even know if we like each other.
Yeah, because we have I feel like we were very small at the beginning. And we have been really lucky in that we've grown really quickly. And that's amazing. the downfall of that is that proportionately as you grow, you also get more feedback and all of that feedback, I think the bigger you get can be more critical and more harsh, because they see you as a bigger fish. Yeah, they can take a mat and they feel like it's not as personal maybe that if you do have a big audience that it doesn't really matter. But yes, the commentary, especially on Apple podcast has been quite
out. clarify it that it's such a small like you told him that such a small Exactly. And to
be honest, guys, I'd be happy to have some commentary now.
I think that I think it happens with that scale that you're talking about Michelle, where it's like, when you actually start reaching critical mass, then all of a sudden, is this new expectation that you're sort of fair game for people to say. And then also by the design of talking about what you talked about, which is around really reality and people's personal lives and all that sort of thing and celebrities, people and now seeing you guys, whether you like it or not a bit like that. And so they're probably starting to say, Okay, well, Michelle, Michelle is this type of character and Zara is this type of character. And that's what makes it magic. But that's also the thing that gives them the power to say, Michelle was really pissed at Zara.
Yes. funny that you do say that, though, because I think we sort of have slipped into two like fan characters, like those are our personalities.
And then I was like, You guys don't cut anything out. So
we do have to sort of characters that we play sort of that we accidentally fell into that suits that personalities, but our personalities are far more light than that. So you kind of get to this point a year into the podcast, where you have built a following. And you get to the point where you say, Okay, well, how do I sort of show the other sides of my personality without ruining the dynamic that that come to expect? And also it's
of a, you've got to weigh up what feedback is worth taking on? And what feedback is just not productive at all. Like if someone's coming to us and saying, oh, what's our names Rudel? Michelle seems not funny, then is that actually was taking on? Should you be listening to the majority, it's very hard to be able to pick out pieces of feedback and figure out what's actually productive and what's just really lost? Yeah,
well, there's a certain type of feedback to which I saw a YouTuber talking about which is the most painful, which is, when the commenter is implying that they're doing this for your best interest. And I guess
they'll frame it in a way, which is like a high like,
I love you guys, or I love what you've been doing.
That's exactly how they do it, just
as an observation, the last few apps and I recommend some mind, fuck, and I but I also don't think it's true. It's just someone's opinion around, they probably people feel uncomfortable when things go from a small thing to be Yeah.
And I think you need to be on not opposing sides. I think it needs to be genuine in your sort of clash of thoughts around something. Because if you're both the same, you probably wouldn't have.
I think we'd have a following. But also get to the point when you like, if I am overly sarcastic and dry, which is my sense of humor. At what point does that become jarring on a podcast that reaches a lot of people who might not sort of understand that? And then you actually do you? I think you do have to take elements of that on and say, I'm not going to dilute this in its its entirety. But I do have to work out.
You know, how people are going to take this?
What does it actually look like? What do you from the converse, that you were saying that you were speaking about it last night on the phone? What would they what would the she mean? You guys are friends? you actually
believe it or not?
was the what was the conversation? How do you how do you sort of
work on that,
um, the conversation from my end was Zahra called a little bit upset. I think.
I messaged Michelle, and I said I did a bad thing. So I got a phone call. could mean
a lot of
God, I've been a bit dramatic about this. And I said, I read the apple reviews. And the last three I know good like about me, not about you. But about me. I think they are all focused on exactly the same thing, which is that they think that I don't like
to, quote unquote, Tsar heights, Michelle,
God, what have I done because I think I give this illusion that I have quite a hard shell, when in reality, sort of like, very sensitive on the inside, has a tendency to cry.
was Michelle just sort of like being taking this very harsh, motherly role was saying like, you cannot take all of this.
Because I think if you did take it on board, after everything we've been doing, it would be very silly for us to take a handful of people's opinion and change what we do when thousands of people like it like that would just be stupid, stupid, tactical decision. Like if thousands of people love what we do, then keep doing what we do. Maybe keep it in the back of your mind. But yeah, change. I think what I was worried about was our cold me and basically said, fuck, I need to be nicer to you, or I need a
I don't actually
know George, how we are on the podcaster knows our said, Yeah, we do play into roles a little bit. But it's very similar to how we are in every day life. And we become and we read each other back and forth all day, every day. And that's how we live each other.
I've never heard of
each other. What does that mean? Like
reading? Like, in the ribs? Just a joke? Yeah, a fighting.
why we have Mr. JOHN.
no, it's definitely not the one ending with the M Mr. 97. And currently, Gordon is far in and
out, we do get shut up.
But in fairness, that's the relationship that I have with almost all of my close friends, and almost all of the people in my life. So it's not an anomaly for me at all. Nor is it the you
know, I think I would be really bored. If I had friendships where we didn't, we didn't have that dialogue back and forth. Because I think a lot of the commentary as well, that comes to us saying that czars mean to me or vice versa, is actually from people who are a little bit older, you might not have that relationship with their friends where he's not really joking me battery kind of relationship. And so it's Josh
it is a
unique relationship, though I think any combination like Josh and I, like my friendship with Josh, I don't have another friend like, I don't have another friend where we go his date where we, you know, have as much like there is so many highs and lows of the friendship, which I think adds to what we're doing.
And the other thing I think that makes it hard is it's like when you're doing a show, there's content, you're doing stuff for content. So it actually like radio shows dream of people taking other sides, in fact that that was Tommy's frustration when he was in radio, which is like, hey, we've got this social issue that's on at the moment, your co host believes this, can you play the other side on it? And when you having to do that, it becomes really hard
was manufactured, it's not authentic? And yeah, you get painted as a certain way. So we have the ability. This is what you guys have created something amazing where you can, you're in control of what you're painting. And if people don't always lock it, if you know you've been authentic with it's pretty good. And people weren't
always like it. I think they could be the most successful movies in the world. There will be someone who hates that movie, they'll be someone who heights. I don't know makeup when I've love makeup. Like that doesn't mean anything. It just we all have different opinions. I think we've really got to filter out the ones that are just negative for no real productive, right?
Well, I think it's because we haven't been doing this for a particularly long time. But like, I think last night when I was mildly upset about it, I would say mildly. I didn't get to that I just went for a run. I told her she
wasn't allowed to cry, but
I had her credit.
She didn't have a crime, quite a you wouldn't be such an asshole on the show.
And you have to come at it from a really pragmatic stance being like, it's actually not physically possible for every single person to like, every single thing. Like that's the thing you have to keep telling yourself over and over. In. In theory, that's good in practice. It's
alright, so what is one thing that you can stand in Michelle?
Michelle is perfect.
Well, hey, Jay. We did this. So Ryan, john was on the show. And he did a whole bit where it's like what we hated about each other when we had to say it at the
time. The thing was that Tommy went soft on it and said drinking like my
water bottle. It's so noisy.
The tiniest quits
on the count of three you have the
most hated that shit.
Are you going
Michelle said being
on time she wants to be early. And it's just not efficient.
I'm not I'm not over the top about it. Very subtle in my design. You were very
annoyed me like slightly.
All the time. She's annoyed. She wants to be early. Did you find that?
When you were growing up Zahra? Were you always on tight like was I think families like families.
We run on time. So what about you, Michelle,
y'all, but I like being on time. Like get there a few minutes beforehand, allow a little bit of time for traffic. But get that on time. Zahra likes to be fucking early. So the way you could like sit down and have a full breakfast before you get in which
is what I often do.
I do enjoy that i like i like the eyes.
Get ready in the morning. shower. You just give
you the time that goes like four hours early to a Sydney flight.
Want to go ridiculous late early to the airport. Once you start
going into the virgin lounge having a toasted sandwich
Its domestic. So I was reading a guardian article that was written about us recently. You posted about it it's
was like a distinct version of your story two days. Yes. And there was some things in there that like that are part of your story that so sort of so meaty and juicy. We like building this thing when other people thought you couldn't it's the underdog kind of story here
and as the gossip and scandal show we are
what we what we love about it because the thing is we like I think connected up with shameless I think it was after we met Gemma, Gemma watts who have had on the show. And she was like,
Gemma, friend of the show, Gemma.
Yeah. And she was like, you've got to get into shameless. I remember, early days being It must have been like low, you're talking about logos and stuff. And I was like, in in Europe, and I was like getting my Australian fixed through through you guys. But what I love about the story is that it is going like a bit of a FUCK YOU TO THE MAN as I like to put it, which is like the big corporations and how you're meant to be doing it. And then you've gone out and done this thing on your own. How did you get to that? To that point? How did you get to the point where saying, actually, we don't need permission to build this thing. We can just make it ourselves.
for anyone who doesn't know the story, how day you we we did pitch the story to pitch the podcast sorry, to a media network. They said yes. And then pretty quickly turned around and said Actually no. And obviously that was at the time we were working there at the time. And obviously that was hard. And then there was a conversation that they might do the podcast in the future or the idea in the future, but we might not host it. So we kind of had a conversation back and forth with each other where we were really disappointed because we believed in the idea so much. And we just thought okay, well, we have writers and editors, but we have no idea about because we had no idea what podcast platforms were how to edit, how to record how to broadcast really. So I think we just looked at each other. We said we believe in the idea so much. And I'm a person where I go by gut feel and everything I feel like with content in myself that if my talent is anything, it would be that I think I know what ideas will work as content and what women want to consume. And it was both of our gut feel that we thought it would work. And we're like, Okay, well, let's just make it happen. Like, let's just wing it and see if it pays off. And if it pays off great. And if it doesn't, it's just extra experience. And we might know how to edit a program and edit a piece of audio. I don't even know the correct terminology anymore.
We might know the machinations of making a podcast and therefore with
machination kill the gym. Well,
this is this is the thing that I like early days, I also looked at your LinkedIn and I saw your a task force which you've since taken off
the bad guys for having them on.
Me I was a guy.
I was very, I was very impressed.
But because I really like you guys have such a good vocabulary anyway, it's
this place, you've started the podcast. And then To be
honest, I think it also works because we started it from a standpoint of let's teach ourselves how to do this. So we can put it on a resume and find another job. Because most of our anxiety in our early 20s came from not knowing what our next job was going to be and what it was going to look like. And then we would never going to be employed again. Because there was no working milk. And the industry was, you know, changing completely. So we were very stressed about that. And so we just started it thinking, well, it can't be bad to have on your resume that you've started to try and do this. Like it can't be a bad thing. And then we started doing it. And it took it took a little bit those first few
episodes. We had so many meetings with each other where we're like, how do we get people to actually listen to this? I mean, I think super strategically, like we were going around to universities, printing off hundreds and hundreds of posters about shameless and sticking them on the back door of women's bathrooms.
Yet guerrilla marketing we thought,
if you can ever access young women go to the bathrooms were only young women.
For a podcast
Yeah, definitely not the female.
What was the where was it that you saw the difference? The jump from this was something that's fun to it started to get momentum.
We covered an influencer called Sarah's day, who, I guess was heading into Belle Gibson territory where she was giving out health advice of how to treat precancerous cells naturally, and how to heal herself both in inverted commas. And we covered that. And that was probably the biggest response. We've got to a segment because I think it was something that a lot of young people were talking about. But no mainstream media publications were actually covering it. So we were kind of the first to cover it. We spoke to the Cancer Council, we put a blog up on the blog that I then had, which then that got a few things like 20,000 rates or something like that. And I think that was kind of our first episode where we branched outside of our circles, and other people started to find us. And from then I think that's when we had a really tough conversation with the company when we were working for that said, You know what, this isn't tenable, probably for you guys to keep doing both things at once.
The juicy part of the article was that it felt too uncomfortable to be there. What was that? What's the when
I said if it felt it felt untenable to be working there? Because it was, I think, I think the wearing that we've used and I think that is the most accurate wedding to us is that it was weird for us to have a podcast, it was gaining traction inside a company that was running the biggest women's media Podcast Network in the country. And I've said you can't host it. There was sort of no conversation about whether this podcast would ever be taken on board by them. Yeah, we and then it was when this conversation when push came to shove, I guess when it was like we either have to choose basically between these podcasts and our jobs. That's the point. I think what we needed to work out, do we jumped with this? Or do we let it go? And that's the point that we decided to jump with it.
And I mean, now I look back and like oh, well, obviously we choose to go with the podcast at the time the podcast was getting a couple of thousand downloads per episode. It wasn't it wasn't like something where we could just jump out. And that would be my full time job. And Zahra would be sorted. And it wasn't that easy at all. I think again, it was just got field that we thought, okay, yeah, it's getting traction. But in the next year or so it might get a lot of traction in we invest a lot more time into it. So
because there was a time where that media company you're working at, we're positioned as the new age digital movement. What do you think that they may have overlooked in regards to how they built the business to become it almost feels like you start off like this small little jet ski, and you can do all these things you make, and you're enabling things and making things happen. How do you think they ended up as this big ship that couldn't see the talent inside it?
I think it was a couple of things. Firstly, I actually think it was geography, the
availability, we were in Melbourne
and we weren't particularly visible in that company, which was kind of nice, you can work under the radar. And I've always loved sort of pulling under the radar, just putting
my contacts that doesn't mean we were being lazy.
But I mean, I kind of liked the idea that even because you're not as visible you may be you're a little underestimated. And I think that's huge power in that. I think that was for one I think our age we were really young. I think we were 22 when we pitched this and rightly so the conversation was why would people listen to you? Not in those words, but why would people listen to to 22 year olds talk about this and that was very legitimate Yeah, I didn't know I should
just say because the kids making $20 million a year reviewing lowly toys maybe that's but no they were business so they need to hit a few strategic points for it make sense on there and which is why like you said Josh you built a jet ski you throwing it around? Yeah. And then I don't know. I don't know any more jet ski now.
Other thing you like what I took from that was there was a jet ski.
Go on the jet ski today.
On the jet ski.
When you guys leave Tommy's gonna say man, I can't believe
that. Rod. Jay.
How cool is that?
What is the expectation being journos versus what Tommy and I do, which is just being a couple of gronk talking? Are there extra sensitivities that you have to worry about? Or when it's the podcast, you sort of strip that back? It's just like, Hey, this is my opinion. I
think this is something that we're grappling with at the moment that we introduce the podcast is welcome. China's data hosted by to Melvin journos for so long was introduced that for over a year now is to Melbourne journalists. And I think at the moment we're grappling with whether or not that's the correct label.
We have been generous in the past, some of the stories we've both worked on have been pretty serious or very investigative in different areas. But it probably doesn't describe anymore what we actually do. I think more than anything where columnists and broadcasters and writers I think we don't do much journalistic work as far as covering segments, we always make an effort to make sure that we're covering both sides of the story that affects the correct that way going to experts to get the right opinions that we need or the right information that we need to form our opinion. But
is definitely something that we're grappling with at the moment, I don't
think they'll ever be a point where I like add background in journalism will never not sort of inform how we approach the podcast, which is what Michelle said, like showing both sides, things like that. But and sort of putting trigger warnings in front of segments. You know, I'm debate doing the things doing the checklist of things that we think we need to do. But Michelle is right, I think we will stop introducing ourselves as journalists, journalists, because we are editorializing, the news cycle far too much to be seen as people that are on bias.
What's the word? What are you going to choose
writers and like we still brought online, but a lot of it is opinion based. Like I have a column with News Corp, where it's just me trying things from pop culture and writing funny stories about it. So I don't think you can call that journalism. It's the craft
of what you're doing. Writing. Yes. Yeah. It's great. When we we've talked a lot about the words and you've got a takes time. You gotta pick one almost like,
Yeah, well, it feels it feels like sometimes we can get obsessed with that type of thing. And it can lead us in one direction as well. So if we're saying, you know, I'm a journalist, it, it does set a certain expectation or sort of like a posture and the way that you approach things
while you are research. And it's the opposite of what Wait, yeah, we got Mr. Nice. Did you find out you were looking? What was?
What was he
But can we get
your own media brand? And you can.
Shakespeare just inventing words left, right. And that's why I don't trust Mr. 97. Josh
yet ready? Look at again.
So and So you've started this thing, and you've left? Lucky. I've made so many stupid decisions in my life that I haven't that I thought was stupid in the moment, but I've given real crack. And then I got wasn't that stupid? How stupid Did you think it was? Or were you totally backing yourself?
I didn't think it was actually been granted. I went into a straight into another job. Michelle went freelance. But even still, I didn't think it was stupid. I thought in the short term, there wasn't going to be much to come from it. But I had, I had a pretty strong feeling. And I think so did Michelle. In a year, this could have been, this was going to be a good investment, I think as well as two personalities is that I'm very emotional. So I'll jump into things quicker than czar wills are very logical. And I think that makes us a good team. Because we balance each other out. And it means that when we make decisions, we have both like gut feel but also reason. But the cry
quota is used more bizarre. Yeah.
Sorry, frustrated cries like,
Go to show her full emotion.
Where's all my emotion kind of aches out of me all day, every day? on a smaller level?
Yeah, it's like a constant slow drip of a tea
And so when when you decided to actually make the jump from the employment that you had to go into full time freelance, who who did you have to reach out to from the conversation like, I know, when I when I decided to quit my job. I said to to my mom, I said, oh, I've got some news. I've decided to leave in vida, I'm saying my own thing. And she said, Well, this is something I don't want to hear. And then so I hung up and then I went on a rampage called
Bray and I said that she's done.
I'm not saying like, I just need people who supported
me in my life. And I'm like, I'm gonna make this work and actually gave me a lot of fuel. I said, I'm gonna
fuel a fire and watch
it burn. It was
Yeah, so what did that what did that look like for you?
I'm not quite as dramatic. If I'm honest, I am
give you my mom's number.
I am like,
quite a, I have quite a cautious personality. And I'm like very risk averse. So I remember being in the job that I was in. The second job that I was in and I was about a month in messaging, Michelle thinking, I've made a massive mistake. Like I shouldn't have taken this job we have too much work on. So for about six months, I was six months, I was working that job working through my working weekend working after work. So I think by the time it came to January, when I needed to quit, everyone in my life knew that there was no other option. Literally everything was set up for us. We knew exactly what we were going to do. The minute I was full time,
stars transition into full time work was much simpler than
mine was everything was set up. And I think because I had so much time, so annoying.
When it was annoying for Michelle on my because I was so cautious about it. And I had just started that job. And I and I liked the job and I didn't want to quit and leave them. I just felt awkward about it all and I am a bit of a people pleaser. So I didn't want to walk them around. I didn't want to walk Michelle around. I just didn't know what to do.
How do you feel Michelle? At that time,
I went or went into
Well, when Zahra was sort of fucking around doing.
Like it come on board like
yeah, I think it's funny because I was totally fine with it. I think if anything was the reverse that Zahra did feel a bit of guilt over that time that if I was working more on the podcast during the day doing more of the behind the scenes admin stuff, potentially more of editing during that time, whatever. Zahra did feel this growing sense of guilt that she then had to step up when she did step away from her job and almost had to make up for the last few months, which I didn't feel that at all. Like she's offered so many times to do more work than what I'm doing at the moment just so she can make up for it. But I don't think we want that at all. Because to me, we described this the other day to someone else was interviewing us that the podcast is like a baby. So it's almost like I was the stay at home mom for a time. Yeah. And now I both stay at home mums. And it's still the same baby like no matter what if I worked on it a little bit more, that doesn't matter to me, because it's the same end goal. And our like my wins or her wins and vice versa. So I think it would be if anything was more difficult, bizarre that she had to carry on this like emotional load of feeling like she didn't have enough energy and time to dedicate to all the different projects. Whereas I was just at home, like writing my column and doing some podcast stuff. Like it was pretty easy on me.
And the other thing that I've The other thing we said in another interview a couple of days ago is I my other concern is that I was getting home from work and wanting desperately to do this podcast work, which was what I would go and do. And then I would get to 10 o'clock at night and think well, if I burn out, that's not gonna be good for either of us as well. So at what point do I step away? And actually not do this work for the benefit of the podcast? Or what point to like what point taking stuff on it was it was a weird balance
was almost like financially was more tricky for me because I made the choice to go into full into freelance without anything set up, or any life raft to jump on to. But physically, it was more taxing on the jet ski. And yeah, well.
That is the fun thing. I think we look at it go How do you not burn out on the fun thing, the thing that we actually love doing? What do you guys think about that, like,
um, I think if we had it bent out, it would have happened already. I think if I would have been on the podcast, it would have been four months ago, I'm still
not wrong. I think we we keep it too. I mean, the podcast is still fun. And it actually still is one of my favorite parts of my week. But it is framed very much in a work sense to the point where I don't want to talk about what we're going to do in the podcast all day, every day. Like we have very set times of the week, where we're going to talk about what segments we're going to do, how we're going to approach it, and then we kind of just drop it. It's very hard when the podcast comes with a community that sort of infiltrates all parts of social media that you need to then moderate your
thousands of producers all telling you what to cover
exactly in a Facebook group that wants to talk about what you're talking about. And that
is so wonderful, and so rare. But it's still in that Facebook group, Mr. 99. He's,
yeah, he's moms on the group.
And he messaged me says 97
that she New Zealand, not sure what that is. But we
do have to moderate that group.
Yeah. And that is hard to not burn out when you're waking up at whatever time you wake up in the morning and moderating that. And then to the moment you go to bed, there's sort of no point where you're not thinking about it. And I don't think I've met either of us have reached a point now we'll be balancing that.
Also that like, we've got a lot on our plates at the moment, like we're doing a lot of different things outside of shameless that will let the in the next few months. But above anything, we constantly say to each other. When we are really busy. We're doing lots of meetings or whatever, we constantly look each other. We're like, shameless comes first, like no matter what shameless has to be priority, we have to make sure on Friday that we have basically a clear day when we're not doing anything really intensive. Sorry, guys, you're just fun, this is fun. But we want to make sure that on Friday that we kind of have that day to focus on content prep, and being in the right headspace for the podcast. Because above anything, we don't want to let the main project that has given us a little bit of success or a great audience or whatever. We don't want that to slide. And I think some people can sometimes get lost in that you create something that's really good. And then when you get you start getting paid for it, the content slips away. But above anything, we want to make sure that the content is great, and therefore the money will come later.
I want to ask you about social media in a second. But is that Fridays
Sorry, I gotta get something.
That's why we're here. And so I missed it. Mr. 97.
He's cooked to both the date that he's he's been on
Yeah, both times.
That's the kind of man he is Mexican. And then it didn't work out.
Peters. Shit anyway, we're gonna
come over let
this is too much.
It's under ribbing.
away ribbing. 97 right now make him whether
renderers hat, by the way, said
to me once before for us, and we thought okay, maybe he can cook again. Right. It's amazing that we throw things at him and he just never has one's ever said no.
teach my son how to say no.
I can step in as a high HR manager.
Someone clearly needs to be done if he did. So what my son has done has Mr. 97 he, he's done some prep work at home. And he's brought in his waffle machine
as well. Nice, because what I'd said was
Mr. 97 makes waffles at home. I've had some of his savory waffles, waffles, right. And I said, Can you make them on the show? He said they take 15 minutes to make each one. It's too long. I'm like, I like the pressure. You should do it. Anyway. He went behind my back and pre k 97 key come here and explain on my microphone. What why you're not doing the whole thing from scratch now.
It's so good.
Yeah, I had to clarify with mom but apparently the eggs when you whip them up and they go fluffy apparently. Apparently you can't leave them for a long period of time.
You just scientists
say semi brothers. Well, he helped out doing
my boyfriend literally can't cook toys.
So the thing is, he's so what he's ended up doing because 97 was going to bring the better like I said, Yeah, and then you can prepare that but you've got to
it would have gone rock. Yeah. And so he's pre made the waffles. He's gonna make the waffles and then present them.
So just need to hate that. So he's basically got the waffle in it sort of a form that you would assume is a waffle, but he's using the waffle maker to hate
say, right, hate it right.
sounds fancy. I mean, I'm looking at from over here, and you're gonna tell me.
I'm hoping that he has this done by the time the show is kind of wrapping up, we can see them because I'm always apprehensive about eating on any dietary requirements.
No fruit for me. I'm intolerant of fruit. I just
I'm intolerant. I'm intolerant. I mean, tolerant to useless lights, which is a chemical in most fruits and vegetables. So I have the diet.
like pasta, high carbs. Just full on carbs. Hardly any vegetables. Yeah,
Lots of people think it is but I used to love like avocados about a big one for me. But also
I can have avocado bit like minimally
once a week maybe. When did you find this out? Is this like because there seems to be a millennial trend that we all are intolerant. Yeah, things and it's a great excuse to not a
no, this is bad. Sorry, seeing the first so I broke out. This was when I was maybe 20. Like a full on neck rash. Right around like bleeding every day. It was gross.
But also my ass was horrible. Like I was admitted to hospital multiple times that he was really bad asthma attacks. I started having like really low depressive moods. And I went to a dietician, and I'd been misled and tolerant when I was a kid. So I'd had all these like skin allergies and asthma and everything is kid and my parents are just kind of I think they thought I'd grown out of it. That's why
I think with asthma like I used to get asked my really bad but I haven't had a buffer for like 10
years really wish I was like you
know, there's gonna be a day where the asthma storm comes and I'm gonna
Yeah, it was just really, really bad. So I guess when I was a kid, maybe my parents were feeding me certain types of food. But when I reached 1920, I was going out and eating my own food and buy my own stuff to make and I must have just tilted really far towards the head body to get the time really fought towards like an orthorexia kind of diet where it was basically only fruits and vegetables. Healthy to where it was all I was at watching a bit of Sarah sky And
yeah, I've been
27 bananas. The thing
with the all those bloggers is I get into them. The thing is that I take part of so I'll take the bit from the vague like when it's a vegan for instance, I'll take the bit where they ate a lot of fruit. But then I'll watch a paleo person and then I'll eat a lot of meat it turns out which is eating a lot of everything. So it's like
that from 14
bananas. You can if you combine it with also paint up.
What was your requested era?
fat diet? Yeah, no food poisoning?
I think we can. I think we're if we can get through
that. No, I think that's fine. Social media. I saw Michelle, you were you posted something about how you took some time off from social media?
You know, I saw that somewhere. in it. I know
you wrote a blog posts. Well, the thing is that I find it interesting like to extend that I was listening last night to latest episode. And you both have a very positive outlook on social media. I know compared to them, compared to what TJ is describing, because I feel like I'm still in the stage of like, fuck social, like I'm scrolling just go fuck this. I hate this. I hate social media. I hate myself.
So I think what what happened was late last year, I took like a significant amount of time off social media. Just because I was I started tracking it Festival on my iPhone, I had that little app up where it would tell you how much time is spent on every day.
And it was alarming. You say five hours? Was there a time where it's five? Yeah, five
hours a day, which some people I would say that too. And they're like, Oh, that's nothing. Also your work is on social media. Nothing is
ever on like eight hours a day. For me
when I was working that full time job. And I was basically talking to Michelle the entire day because we were working on the side, I would look at my screen time and be like I've just worked to work days because I've spent eight hours on
something in in Chloe's and social media viewing ya up, I reckon there'd be like an average hire in person people that work for other people.
Well, there's there's also something like about writing and what you're doing, you can do a lot of on your phone as well, which is cool. Do you find that part of the the tool being something that can be used for good, but also?
Well, I think I did go through that period last year where I was really negative about social media. But now I feel like I've let go of the guilt. I think I was tracking it and taking time off it because everyone continually says all like, don't be on your foreign too much. And make sure that you go and see the world which of course I agree with the same time. It is a part of our job. And I think in the past few months, I've just come to the realization that if I'm content and I'm happy, and I'm fine, I'm still exercising, and I'm still enjoying life, then I don't need to have this negative feeling towards social media. Because I feel like we do. We're always told that being on your phone all the time is really, really bad. And you should feel really guilty about it. And we're always putting labels like you're addicted, we're all addicted to our phones.
I don't know I think if you do if you're not doing the shit you want to be doing, and it's taking out time is being spent on that and you complaining to your partner about wanting to excel in your career or go traveling or, you know, earn enough money to do something I think then it's like it's unique. Yeah, problem. If it's being used
as I have, if it's being used as a pacifier for other issues, that's where it's an issue. But if it's just like, there is something in that, like a I know, a friend who went on that, like a diet, which was essentially like, a what you want when you want like it was like it was a whole book on it. And it was like, I never even thought of that. Like what about
that could just be like a sentence,
or whatever. Yeah, the thing is, we're so fucked up that it required like all this training around, like, how we look at food.
Yeah, I think we can pretend as well that like giving up social media will be like the panacea for all your problems in life when that's just so not the case. Like Absolutely, I don't know, I think we can be super negative. But recently, I'm like, like, social media, such a huge part of my connection with other people. And when Facebook and Instagram went down a week and a half ago, I spent the day being like, Oh, fuck, I really enjoyed the communities that I've got online, I enjoyed the group chats with my friends on what's happened. Without that I would be really lost and isolated.
I still think though, I feel better about myself when I'm not on my phone. And I think bottom line that is the case for a lot of people. I have fantasies I've had fantasies in the last week of like, having a wake of Facebook, I actually even haven't had this. I haven't had this conversation with Michelle.
every conversation the hard part
the hard bit about what you're saying. Sorry, is I announced to Tommy Hi, I'm getting off social media. Because the thing is, it's like then Thomas, then Tommy's, like, Who the fuck is doing all the updates? I'm like, that's why I'm talking to you.
I was actually having this fantasy over the last week and trying to work out how we would do it crazy
Go on holidays. Like if we want to take a break this year. It's a break from the podcast, but it's a break from nothing else. Like we're still working. And I was thinking how do we do it? If one of us like we have two weeks off one of us deletes the Facebook app for a week the other person is motorized, so the groups and stuff are awake, and then vice versa. I don't even think that's realistic. That's the best time ever I really did have these dreams that maybe I could completely disconnect for a certain amount of time just to say what life was like without it but you can all consuming you can you've
built your own based and you're in control of it with a friend met Dave Ella. He's a YouTuber Josh
was talking to him online and other online friend that we've actually met when he had, you know, a few hundred 500. Yeah, he hasn't subscribers. It was when he first started. Now he's got 1.1 million bench. So he releases a video and he used to release it on a Monday, which meant he was anxious across the week. And having to work going, I need this out. And so what he did was Tuesday, when he got his weekends back, but it was he thought he was in a trap. And then he decided something else. So it is I think we are in control.
Well, the other thing I thought is at what point so we have one of the biggest sort of Tigers about time is that Facebook community which we love, it's also taking my time,
the amount of things on faith, you can leave.
How does the notifications work on? There's no notifications, I just come up.
Yeah, that's so it
is the shameless plug because I don't have Facebook now. But I added the group from break because the other thing is when I started listening to the show, I was like, ah, I wonder what's happening in the Facebook group. The podcast is very much position to women. And so I was like, Hey, good. Like I feel like at the end is like so ladies, if you want to go on to the Facebook group. It's the equivalent of like, you felt like a women's bathroom. I know your audience.
I feel like, I feel like I'm in a huddle.
Well, I did have a friend. There was a book club that was getting started and one of my old jobs. And the first book was laying in by Sheryl Sandberg right? Yeah, great book. Anyway, my friend came up to me and they said, Hey, we're doing this book club, it's gonna be a great time to like, chat about the book and all that sort of thing. Anyway, sign up here. And I signed up and she came up to me, she said, I'm only saying this because you're like a really good friend. And I know it's maybe not PC, but you're the only do in the whole company that's put their name down.
And so and because of that, like
So I said I was like she said, Do you mind because then people might be able to be more open as I that's cool. I'll try with it.
So you didn't go into the book? I didn't go on the book club.
Oh, that's Yeah, that's fine. It's all right
there like men's clubs and stuff.
Well, that's why I thought I was like, ah, I like the reason that I wanted to read it and stuff was to understand and to be like part of the cause so it was like well if that's if all I have to do if I don't have to fucking read it.
myself. I mean, that's a witness.
Yeah, that's a good point. I know with our Facebook group I wonder if one day this year if we went on holidays if we could post in there I don't know if this is like too radical an idea to be like the Facebook groups taking a break for a week
like we're not posting we're not it's I think it would be that we'd have to pay someone to moderate
you know what you need a Mrs. 9797
actually be here.
finding a wife soon. Yeah,
maybe she won't take his name. And she'll be Mrs. 99 or something.
Very nice. be such a shameless Listen, I think
the the group like that, what's the pressure to respond to all these people? Because I know one of our you got this period of building your page and your brand and your business in the following you like the good strategies to reply to every single person?
Yeah. When does that start? I think it has stopped.
Yeah, I don't think the pressure for us is to reply to everything. It's keeping our eye on everything, but it's keeping the tone in line with the podcast is because I think if if the tone of the Facebook group goes a bit rogue it becomes maybe nasty or like a cesspit of bitchiness, then I think it directly undermines what we do in the podcast. So that's kind of the overarching aim for us with the Facebook group is making sure that the conversations are productive and smart and and playing the issue, not the woman. And that's kind of hard to do keeping your eye on that all the time. Because it's not just the posts that you're proving that you're making sure are fine. It's the conversations that exist underneath them, which can go on for hundreds of comments.
And if you get 11,000 people together to discuss anything, eventually without moderating it, it's gonna go down one pot, which is
great. Yeah, 11,000 people, that's probably what 1000 gronk
I mean, it's great to know that, some Juno's or some people with experience around, you know, fact checking, actually running a page like that, because you could see how it could go, Oh, yeah, he could just, you know, dump something in there and create
a different time. So it did for a time before we started approving every post when we let everything in, because we wanted it to have this sort of like real time vibe when people are watching TV or is
that one of my posts hasn't gone up your
Facebook life? Well, that's what this way you're getting delighted. I've been getting.
Michelle said said it before I could say it. And I feel happy
we are in the game. And like I don't mind me aligning with you guys for a second. But we're all in the game of like, talking as a main thing that we do. Right? And so
we're all very self indulgent.
Yeah. And so do you find though that there is that especially you guys have this massive audience now, the pressure of saying the right thing, and also like the fact that we could say something now and then we read something and our whole view on it could shift, right? Yeah. How have you reconciled the fact that you said something last week, and you might not believe it now?
Well, I think
we always try at the end of every segment when it's particularly contentious to say something like we might be wrong. Or maybe you guys have different feelings about this. Come tell us. Yeah, so we always have that attitude of maybe they haven't gotten
a rotten, come
discuss this, but open to discussion. I feel like that's the main points that if you do get something wrong, then people do feel like they can come to you and have a legitimate conversation without actually attacking you or being quite violent in their language, I guess.
What about just saying stupid shit, like, the ribbing thing? And I said the one was the M, which is
I mean, that's our show, we got you like,
a lot of things that you can go back on and
takes for sure, like, couple of weeks ago, I used the word transsexual instead of transgender, which will pull it up on so I do not use the sexual is not their preferred term. And I should have known that I don't know why it even came out of my mouth. But
yeah, the funny thing is, we've got a listener in the UK, who is and she associated with being transsexual, so she's an older school. So she's old school.
So it does describe as a minority of the transgender community, which I think is what some people were upset about, because we were discussing transgenderism. So then to us, transsexual is kind of a little bit, and a little bit on educated. So yeah, that's definitely
it's definitely hard. Because the thing is, like, even
Michelle, the lady in the UK, she, she spent the 90s, like working on internet forums to help people who were going through all that sort of stuff. And her whole thing was it was like, she found the transgender, the transgender term was one that was started being used by journalists or people outside of that community. That's how she felt about it. And she was like, I think we even spoke about it when we had her on the podcast think she was.
And yeah, she was sort of saying on like transsexual. So I think the interesting thing is, it's like, some of these things. There's no right or wrong answer. If we know our intentions. It's like I am trying to get this
thing. We always intend to do things with
compassion. And intention is one thing for sure. Making sure your intention is good. But it's also being able to recognize when you do mock up. And I would like to think that if we do say something that a couple of weeks later, we actually don't agree with, or we've changed our mind, we've come we would say it like, I think I will probably do it in this week's episode about Ricky device. I mean, I want to sort of like re introduce 70 points on it on a segment we did weeks ago, because I think it's important to make it look like you can change your mind because then it's easy for us. If we come out and say that we change our minds all the time to be honest. That's human right.
Shit, and then we think different stuff. And then
yeah, I have a huge amount of skepticism to anyone that's like, adamant on their opinion on everything, right? Because it's like, well, there's, there's got to be room to move, the most powerful thing and cyan talked about it yesterday on the show, she was like, you know, if she doesn't know something as well, if it if she's on a panel, and a journalist asked a question, she doesn't know, at the beginning, she felt like she needed to give an answer. And then she's like, oh, like,
I feel like there's so much arrogance and feeling like you can answer every single thing. And there's a lot of power and actually acknowledging what you have knowledge gaps,
or arrogance can come across from an insecurity, right? Oh, yeah, have to
really find mine.
But yeah, woman's gonna, we're gonna
I think this, it's, it's sort of a hard line to walk because nobody's going to want to listen to a conversation where you seem very unsure of yourself. Yeah. So you have to sound very confident in the research that you've done in the points that you have, while also saying this might not be completely correct. And also I could change my mind on this. And so that's, that's sort of like a hot game to play.
What's the your old employers? What have they taught you in a positive way? where it's like, you know, what, as if you just gone out into freelance, you know, you wouldn't have gained all all the knowledge what
we learned so much there, like actually so much. So I feel like when we do talk about the podcast and how things went, then it can kind of causes semi negative experience. But I did learn to hate them, particularly about what women are interested in and how to have a even construct an opinion pay, some of the women that I worked with in that organization were super influential and authentic careers and great mentors. So I feel like without time that we would absolutely not be able to do what we do now.
And I I think the reason that we work so well together is we were taught how to be quite decisive in our decisions very quickly, like we make decisions really quickly. And we're pretty confident on them. And I think when you're working in a very fast paced environment, where the news is never stopping, and you kind of have to make those decisions, and be confident in them. It's kind of a unique skill to accrue. And that's one we definitely agree that it's been super beneficial for us now.
Fucking fruit on both of you go non fruit one as well.
very aggressive for someone who's getting free food.
Is that maple syrup that
couple of folks or
something as well on it.
Let the process unfold. Thank you.
They sort of look like that when you go to
like a real cheap hotel in the US they always have like a waffle.
Yeah, go straight to it.
I'm not gonna lie to you hot being allergic to fruit and vegetables. Let's be proper.
So dream big, guys. This is what you can do on your
if warmed up the This is great. what's what's this very calm spot. I
mean, if he doesn't have a wife, and then out last two nights will certainly get one second.
Mr. 97. Can you come over and just sort of give us the you know, the shift spiel about what you've presented? Yeah, to the girls and
MTR style, you know, they sort of losing viewers so this could replace a potentially channel 10 if you're watching, yeah, so we've got a bunch of
sugary sweet waffles and bunch of fruit on top. You have
to say sugary, I think bury the lead.
cyber, cyber, cyber. It's just like they delicious. Yeah Josh
Can you micromanaging with a bunch of you? I get maple syrup and Barry compote. Lovely.
If you weren't eligible before. I know
can I just say I mean narcissists were all.
This gave me shivers when we were doing a talk around at a college. It's called culottes in front of a group of students that are, you know, becoming content creators. A girl came up to ask a question. And she said to us, I know where I know you guys from now. They she recognized Mr. 97. From dating, shameless dating show.
What can we say? Not only that,
but I was at a surprise birthday party on Wednesday night, which
she didn't plan it you say because it
definitely was the boyfriend. But it would. TJ That's too much. My wife gets into me about what
what is the
maple syrup is a maple syrup flavored maple syrup.
Not the hotcakes syrup. It's legit,
like 100% the Canadian
Anyway, you read that? What happened
to the party? And I was just having a conversation with someone else. I said, Oh, yeah, we've got cyan on Thursday, and then Friday, shame on and then all of a sudden that like, the other side of the room had taken no interest in all of a sudden they said
Shameless and and
Also confuse us with the TV show.
She's like, I love those girls. And then I quickly aligned Rama, yes.
They're very good internet, friends of mine.
before we get into this, what's next for you girls?
We have why hate people to do this. But we have like other podcasts that we're working on projects. Is that what we would say?
projects? We want to become a media company. You our media company? Yeah, you
know, yeah, but just a podcast at the moment.
To cost to set up an actual legit company
was 650 250
every year for your ethics.
It's not cheap. And then you trust if you
are telling me that I just don't know if it's
actually yesterday 10 minutes talking about business structures. It
But domain names you guys are going to get on the domain names and stuff.
Because you're calling it shameless media.
We don't know yet. This is these are all the conversations ever having
because shameless don't media, because when I think I saw an engine
to buy a domain
name is Blake's domain. I did.
You did? I did.
Okay, how's that? there? It was. I said, was this sort of just like a subtle drop? Like, I bought Hamish, his domain name. And then I said to Hamish
Oh, no. I was,
I was trying to make it very clear. I bought the domain name because I, I constantly
said to him, you
know, I'm a little bit neurotic. So I'll look up domain names constantly. So I like I probably searched all of your names or whatever. Me Not like everyone, right? size seven. I owned 1310 sixty.com
back in the day, which was the radio station.
So I had a huge amount of domain names. I had one that was about this. I got off the grid.com. Right. You
Yes. Can I ask why?
Well, I think it's because when I was I got Josh janssen.com in 2005. Thank you.
Yeah. It's fucking amazing, right.
And I'm obsessed with search engine optimization. So if like someone searches you,
how do people find you? What do they say? How can we sort of control all that sort of thing? So so I do buy a lot of tomatoes. That
is a side hustle so that eventually you'll buy one?
Yeah. And so my whole thing is like, it's not for me to make money off. But I see it as like, everyone should have their own domain name. And I'm pretty evangelical about
collecting stamps, but like,
collecting stamps for 20 bucks a month.
Well, I thought I bought off
the grid.com. Yeah, right. And it was like, my heart was racing. It was crazy,
Because it seems like the more generic the heart that I had about we've
got the daily talk. show.com we've got big media company. com. This clearly there's someone in the business who knows domain names. And this and sorry, anyway.
Where we going with Yeah, yeah.
So I ended up I didn't actually buy off the grid.com I bought off the good.com
about her on
show Andrew Andrews calm Why not?
Identify anyone who you think might go somewhere someday and just by they're
like, Hey, man,
I was so
separate, like, the Amish one only happened like two years, two years ago where I was like, I because there was actually this uh, this domain trolls domain name shows where they'll hold on.
No, I'm not trolled, because I'll straightaway be like, Hi, I actually don't want like, I'll just transfer it to islam.com was bought by someone they got it was like a full actually said, I'll give it to
you. So that that does happen as well. But the thing is that I think like a really cool way, like if you do go shameless media, you could get shameless dot media, which would be like a cool URL. I've seen that
a lot lately, where people are putting dots in.
What do you do? First? Shameless. media.com Yeah, I don't know if that I don't think that was
the domain name expert. Yeah.
Well, I think it's all about like search engine optimization. If you type in big media, how many listeners
have we lost in
the shameless ones have gone
chat, but the thing is
this is the hobby The thing is that the domain name is actually like all this branding stuff. That's what that's all you guys you have right so it's like rather than being on foot like fuck Facebook and all that sort of thing is gonna be a in a time where you like, we actually are being a media brand we want to own all of this
when you guys say you're not a media brand, well you're you're you're on someone else's land at the moment that's what Josh is saying. You can build that you know, you've got your mailing list which is essentially building your media Yeah, but you've got it you just you just need to build a bigger
brains to be sort of like formalize a little bit
yeah work out
the trustees that trust Yeah.
Thank you for coming on.
Finding us and thank you Mr. 97 for the waffles of which we haven't yet
was like he's not we're not aiming the waffles on the show.
If I if I drink or eat anything
noisy the mice said when she
when she drinks on my what I've realized from this episode is I'm more like Zara and you're more like
bad who cries more Yeah,
you who wouldn't cry The more you cry
much I've cried more since becoming a because
that's what they all say.
Like I just feel like I'm in touch like a K more about everything about
non emotional ones who weirdly cry
always on emotional one Yeah,
yeah, I'm thank you for giving us a shout out to your newsletter
very very quickly what do you know the themes of what the new podcasts are going to be your
contracts haven't been signed yet so we've got
you got contracts you bigger media company they're not
gonna lock shit down.
Yeah, we do. So no, we can't say and that's like very annoying. That's right when people do that's okay.
That's more information
that's you and the media but I think the media brand stuff is is big like that's why we are wanting to take all of our stuff which is like, then you've got this like hub to build it on.
Does it include jet skis? That's her arms do I get there is a jet ski podcast
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