- November 13, 2018
The Daily Talk Show — Tuesday November 13 (Ep 216) – Josh Janssen & Tommy Jackett
On today’s episode of The Daily Talk Show, Tommy gave Josh some negative feedback today, which turned into a full deconstruction on how to provide feedback without resulting in a blow up.
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Wait a minute
worth recording with Josh Janssen and Tommy jacket. It's a daily Talk Show Episode 262 hot
one. We're in our studio and we've got now a con.
It is Tuesday here in Melbourne. It is it feels
it feels lighter in awake. I just
turned up your microphone a little bit too much. Okay,
so I'm happy to take the
extra volume. You just reduce it in post. Yep. So that you just got stronger vocals and me. Have you ever done that? Let's be honest. Have you given yourself a nice enhancer? And oh, forgot to put it on TJ
I think I just got better Mike technique though. I probably sound a bit clearer.
But you did say that. Howard Stern has a different filter. Are some old school radio presenters. Yeah,
they just use like, these big condenser mics. Microphone. What does that mean? So it's what they add? What's that? From my headphones, my headphones, uh, the, the Yeah, the stuff on the actual he beats
again, it's like the black vinyl is peeling off. It's disgusting. It was condenser
this today. So they'll have like a condenser mic, which is just picks up sort of a richer sound. And they'll add a compressor to it, which even boosts again. So it's almost like when they go real writing.
They're just talking normal. Yeah, they're talking family. I did lie. The worst is closest I'll admit to the fact that I like the sound of my own voice is when you actually talk like, I don't listen to my voice. Now. I don't think it sounds that great. I don't have headphones on. But when you are in a radio studio, and it does have a processing filter on it.
Well, I was testing it out before. Did you notice you're gonna sound different? Oh, yes. And it's so much better.
And it's how it sounds on the other side. So it's like, yeah, it's I wish I could just walk around with radio voice it does emphasising the bass in your
sounds or? Yeah, in your voice. You and I were just having a long discussion.
Yeah. It's, it's something I actually wanted to talk about on this podcast. And that is feedback
before today you wanted to talk about or just after spending an hour?
No, I wanted to get into it. It's funny how things come out. I wanted to get into because I heard this guy say, no one takes feedback. Well, and it's one of your things you love asking people? What do you think of the podcast? Even when they're on the show? Do you
think I've stopped that though?
I think you slow down because you haven't got a response. I've and it's been a fascinating experience watching people and how they react when you say to them, he feedback on the podcast. We haven't had one negative piece of feedback. This is not a time for you to send negative feedback to hire the daily talk. show.com. Can you can
Michelle's always been good with that?
Yes, yes. But I think in person, it's it like, for instance, what we want is some kind of constructive as well, we can make Michelle in person. Negative feedback, we want a person to go, I didn't like when you guys do that. And, and then we can work out from there. But what I what I've seen online is that this guy, I can't remember who it was. But he was saying people cannot take feedback. Well, well, and
probably to Seth gardens point where he says that if someone writes a asks for a blurb from him, he'll either say yes, and do it. Or he'll say he's too busy. He won't tell them that it was shipped work,
because she it's hard to handle from a boat like Seth Godin or anyone. Yeah, anyone. But I think the people with higher status I'd probably be more affected by it's like the bloke. I think that's what we do. I think there's so many ways reacting to feedback justifications. I'm not wrong, you're wrong. Okay, that's awesome. I'm going to take that on board. And from our conversation, I actually think that the dude who said, People can't handle feedback at all, in fact, an idiot. Yeah, because he hasn't looked at the bones of feedback. And that's what we spent the last hour just going through. And really, we actually drew a diagram that was based of like, back, heel and toe. So it's almost like we did restrictive and we looked at the bones of what receiving a piece of feedback, and then that response to the feedback looks like,
Yeah, well, I was talking about the feedback is you providing feedback to the referred pain? Yeah, not where the actual pain comes from.
Yeah. And if you to I mean, that's, yeah, we got there based around. And if you look at it from a broad perspective, when someone offers you feedback they with with a dialogue, they're not taking into consideration the little context, or the large amount of context that they have about that specific piece of feedback. And that's the thing I gave you. The gist is I gave Josh a bit of feedback.
And the feedback was that I asked questions of clients, and then I can fall into if they don't have a response straightaway. I'll then do what I like to call a Tim Ferriss. Because that's his whole fucking podcast. Yeah, he's so I'll give you an example. Yeah. So I'd say How are you? Because I think that how good you are can say a lot about how a person is in the general life.
And what was the first question
is my is my response? That's, and that was, that was the feedback based around maybe losing the first initial impactful question, because I want to answer that. But what I've learned is, and this is why I've sort of done a bit of a 363 60 I'm at the same place again,
got vertigo, dizzy. Now I've done a 180 in terms of it didn't take long, like one I like you've done a whole one ID on this whole thing about for 40 minute chat.
Yeah, I think for the kind of person I am, or the kind of way I approach this. I don't bring up I don't take into consideration the context. If something hasn't been going well in the lead up to it.
What does this mean? Why do you think this person was doing this kind of thing? Or? Like I think Isn't it just empathy? Yeah, what might be happening? Yeah, what Where are they? At? What sort of feedback have you like, what is the the top three bits of feedback that you've received in your life? And what what? How have you taken it? How do you feel about it?
Yeah. I can see I don't Are you the one in the bath? The one in the spa? in concert, Jimmy? Oh, Colin best my captain for this one. Because it was being a best, my best my
captain. And I've given that he's full night. Like you're really the captain. He's He's the straight to dress. Your
best man captain. Hey, he in this boat. careem not the best man. He and Kareem in a spa. Basically, tell me you're a fucking idiot. And I just remember it was a massive shift for me. And I it was like, It shook me out of a mindset. Or
so like, I was thinking straight away 100%.
tissues, willing to know what we do? I can't
remember. I think that you're winking in the spa? No, we'll just chill in the spa. So what was it? So was that we doing something dumb in the spa?
No, no, I think it was like they kind of said to
you, yeah. How old? Would
you have a 16 1617 today, we need to talk to you. And I fuck it. I took true truly see the moment is a pivotal period in my thinking. And so you were Did they say that before you got into the spot was like, Hey, man, we want to speak to you about something. Now. I just remember the feeling like you probably felt before when I gave you feedback, we just like, like you Sana like it's like almost adrenaline sort of rushes your body and and the thing is, I didn't react poorly to it, meaning it was an I think I probably knew, or it was something like I just kind of like, listen to them. And I remember feeling after like fact May. How did they do it? Oh, so what did I say? I cannot remember this is the thing we should save James remembers. Yeah. krim remembers. I think it was just like always been Dr. spaceship. I was young. And I like I was really just a leading trying to lead the way a lot of the time. Like, I don't remember it. Maybe it was just my world. Like I maybe I was just a bit thinking everything was about my bit
was you feel like because it was two mates doing it? Do you think that the hurt more because it meant that they were having these sideline conversations that you weren't privy to?
Yeah, I don't think I think the thought that I didn't think I felt that day. I actually was just like, father must be real. And I just remember taking a road that was the one. But the thing is in radio. And if I'm to take my thinking behind not wanting, and the pushback I had on receiving feedback from sort of radio people when people in Melbourne, it wasn't bad. But I'm just like, you send a check, which is like, you know, taking this shot and then sending it to somebody else. And my thinking was, this factor has no idea what it's like living in Shepperton and the lack of resources we have, which is the whole empathy thing. They don't take into consideration that we're trying to do this on the fly. And then they nitpick. Because you've asked them give us some feedback, and that nitpicking, essentially, please feel free to be great at something. But the trust hasn't been built with this person. You see them as a leader or superior to you. So then you like, well, they even care.
Your point being that you were thinking that if you don't speak directly to it, like if you use the empathy thing, you worried that you're not going to be as direct and you sort of fluffing around the actual problem.
Was I worried about
is it like that seemed like it was a word like the justification that you gave,
based on not wanting to hear the feedback? Well, because
I straightaway said, Okay, well, if you're going to point out that I do this, you do you do this. Yeah. And you also do this,
which I can't do to the boss. Because he like, well, you're a piece of shit, man. Yeah, bring it. Let's bring it back and tapes from years ago, Craig, Bruce.
And so what do you remember? What would you feel like in those moments without nitpick?
Yeah, I just I didn't see it as being constructive. is much as they thought it was constructive feedback. I thought it could cloud me and having my head down in a time where I'm still learning how to fucking talk.
Is there a difference between asking for feedback and just getting it without asking? And the person who asks for feedback and then gets it? We also just comment, I don't know if the cat the mice and pick up on a car alarm going off? I hope it's not my car.
Yeah. Do you think that there's a difference? If you ask for versus you just getting prompted?
I think there is a difference. Getting it, I'm prompted, you might not have even wanted it. And it might come from someone that you didn't want it from? And want. Yeah, you want to hear it from all that they? What I've what I've learned over the years is I am selective of who I want to hear feedback from, and who matters to me. And so there is some people like there is a bunch of people close to me that I'm actually just Bobby with him. And you know what, it becomes half half the time it's you pot not right, like Eric, and Amy's given me and you, Amy, and you have given me more feedback on things about production. And more. So Amy, she's not a production person. Yeah, but it's a safe space. She can be critical. I love her. I know, she loves me. So I take it on. And so it's not what I'm saying is don't run, don't run away from feedback, or even the opportunity to get feedback. It's also about who the fact the feedback from
where you were saying, he gave me another piece of feedback, which is I'm bad at taking vape Yeah, I did it probably.
It's basically saying, calm down. hapa ventilating I don't breathing so fast.
I don't. I wasn't like, how would you say the reaction goes, because it's I wasn't like this is a queue
up to share. What I will say is, it's a slow creep towards being defensive. Yeah, which is, I think, a slow blow up, it's a slow blow up, and we defuse the blow up by talking through it. And what we got at the other side was a dog's leg. Yeah, or a diagram.
So the point being that if you've got a sore, if there's a sore back, and then the heel is so because of that, and then the toe is sore because of that, if Tommy is the toe, he would naturally him providing just feedback to me, which is the heel, which is the heel is missing out on the fact that the heels pain is coming from the back
says referred pain.
Yeah. And so you should at least reference the back. If you're going to reference the heel.
Yeah. Which is another way of saying, be a bit more thoughtful about the way you approach any feedback to anybody, because there is a lot of things at play. And so that's what I don't, that's what I think people miss out on. It's definitely what I I
didn't do. But also if you don't do it, I reckon that half the people who don't use that filter, yeah, they actually, if they use that filter, they probably wouldn't end up giving you a back. Because that would realise that say, oh, like the rate, of course, the heel is going to act like this, because of look at the back and me mentioning it there. It doesn't actually add an event. And
I think there's a caveat around some at some times, and it's making a call about do I bring this up? Because I think its massive. And that's the thing we talked about feedback being subjective. It's just what you think it's not the truth. Yeah, it is a truth to what you were what you were believing in your experiences, you know, context. And so if that's if that is the truth, then there's so many things at play.
And then I went in
I started saying that the you giving the feedback is a self fulfilling prophecy. So this idea that I will now that you've seen said it's going to be cut like it is a thing now,
which I was what I love about you how we just deconstruct things, but it for dumb ass like me, it actually can make it make sense.
Your dumb ass because it might be
a self fulfilling prophecy. No, it's, it's the planet and I actually think I'm fucking intelligent. No, but I think there is a and I mean, I've spoken about this. I actually think I'd get you more so because I get Amy. And so I like there was one thing you said that it just kind of it hit me and I was I get that that makes
100% hundred percent sense. It's always funny when that happens, though, to when you feel like you've actually won an argument. Like in that moment. You're all that makes complete sense. I'm so sorry.
Yeah, I'm sorry. Share. Yeah, yeah. And but I'm honoured to be here. There's other 40
I better now put the knife in and twist it. I stand by what I said.
No, but I think yeah, it's hard. I just looked up on Quora, the Cora. Cora.
Cora, Cora qu o RA, or not fucking intelligent,
self fulfilling prophecy nearly did it? Who was it? Someone was telling us that was it wasn't Jimmy it was someone else was saying that we were talking about Cora. And then like the next week, we're talking about Reddit and we landed on Reddit, like I think it was a year ago, we could have ended up with Laura page we, we
resolved back to core Cora, when we want an answer for something
that isn't what is it?
So I just typed in feedback. Why does and it came up with Why do some people why do some people? Why can't some people Randall is already how it is I'm trying to deconstruct Why do some people can't handle and or take constructive criticism very well. And it had a bunch of it went into it. But there is one bit where it says different things work for different people at different times. Okay, the grass is sometimes greener on the other side anyway. It gives you one to five on some things that you can should consider when giving feedback. And I'll just let's let's I'll just read them out. And let's see if we can run
the preface Who Who wrote this? Who the top answer it always has the either His name's David. David, is it by Dr. David is a
David cone black media physical, trusted advisor hidden thinker. Okay.
I mean, if I saw that time head think I'd hire him.
First acting already to head think as he
number one, notice how I said things to consider, and not things you need to do. This allows the recipient to make their own choice.
What does that mean?
Notice how Notice how I said things to consider.
This allows one more because these aren't making them
Lower your voice or speak softly and slowly? Not loud and overpowering. Okay, yeah, we can do that. I think that's a general rule. When you're communicating something that you want to get across don't know, in your thinking be okay, if they get
it? Or if they don't. So maybe you know, you're talking about me being bad at receiving feedback. Yeah. Are you? Were you bad at receiving? receiving the feedback of the feedback? Yeah, maybe?
Maybe not. And then this goes the the recipient will feel the change in your energy, and they won't feel wrong. I like to put information out on a buffet and allow the recipient to pick and choose what
you should have taken me This is LA.
I just read for five minutes. Don't look for them to get it in the moment. Allow them to get it when they are ready. I feel like that that is you yours. I think someone who might come back later. Or no, I think that what we've discovered with you and I is say will like argue. And probably the first half an hour is just you and I fighting and then eventually sort of switches into productive mode.
Yeah. Yeah. Number five, you can lead a horse to water. But you can't make them drink. If you show the horse where water is they can always come back when they are ready and thirsty. David. Fact May. It's a good
feedback for David.
Maybe it wasn't that lucky. Yes. If you own some horses that might be a bit hand this bloke Terry. He's gone had some people grew up with strong criticism and have developed strong defence against any form of criticism. I think I've had to deal with in my life. Getting it's getting better at not being reactive, like a barking dog. What are some?
Like it? Tell me some more I like I want to dive into this criticism thing. What what other moments? Have you been given feedback?
Go deep? Well, relationship, I think that's where I've learned a lot about dealing, like dealing with my wife.
That's the title of the episode dealing with my wife is
I'm putting up with my wife. Yeah, we deal he was being in a relationship with my wife, I've definitely have gained more empathy from I just sometimes come out of it like a ball. And I don't think about a whole bunch of shit. I can't remember moments at the moment where I've received criticism. But now the big one was giving Kareem is full on. It was like a
pivotal moment. I remember being sat down. I'd, my boss had gone away overseas for I think it was about a month. And then they came back and I was new at the company. And I'd done all of this other work. But I hadn't done the work that they set out for me to do. And I remember I was writing a blog. And I only got to the point of getting basically doing an interview with an architect and transcribing the interview. But they I think we're expecting to see the entire entire blog post, right, yeah. And so the AI contacts me just before my boss gets back from overseas. And she says, Hey, Josh, can you send me through all the work? Your boss wants to see it before he catches up with you. And this was like on a Friday, and so it catches up for you on the Monday. And I said to the A I'm like, actually, it's not where it needs to be. I was planning on doing like a big time crunch on the weekend. just smash it all out classic JJ. I made the mistake of just being my own. He's like, the AI made me feel comfortable. So I was like, maybe I'll just give it a crack. I'll just send them this transcript of this interview that I did with the architect the
Yeah, the whole thing. Anyway, the boss and like my boss's boss ended up sitting in a room with me. And they were just like, so tell us about the post, the blog post, I sort of explained at the time, and they just, I remember they gave me like a letter. And it was like, I had only just been at the company for like two months. And like listing all the things that I wanted to say improvement wise. And then how about this, that actually gone through? I think the reason I kept my job was because they went through and spoke to all these other people within the business was asking what I was doing. And they came back like all these people who are like I was going above and beyond all these other people without like, are they needed this are you of course, I will help you I can help you for a couple of days on that I just trying to be Mr. helpful, but not doing any of the shit that I was asked to do beforehand. And Arkin, the only thing that saved me was, all those people had given me glowing reviews on like, yeah, Josh was great. He helped us with creating a whole social media strategy and worked on this. But I remember at that point, feeling pretty sick.
And so my thought around how you responded to feedback before we sort of dived into it was there's an option of taking on feedback. And you're saying, okay, that's, I could maybe apply this. And some people do, I think, what do I do? What's your thoughts on what I do? Around feedback?
I think it depends. On the four things you brought up to match my one thing. And I think that
generally, in the moment, you can just, it normally has, I think this types of feedback that I can give is more in the moment, and it requires a change of action change, of course, if that makes sense. So I'd be saying, don't do it like this, do it this way. And you're pretty good. You just don't know why that is I don't you think,
yeah, you're only great. I think I just, if there's if I really thought it needed push back, I'd say get back.
But I think that you would, you'd be more likely to give push back if something had happened previously. And I bring it up after the fact, which is less likely, but would normally potentially end up in a blow up. Whereas me saying, No, don't send them that email, send them this email or not, don't wait until then just do it now, which is some is in some regards a form of feedback, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think, any feeling of doing the wrong thing, or a way of saying you guys did this, and shouldn't have done that is feedback. And it's, it's negative. It's, it's See, this is a thing, people paint them into constructive or it's like, negative or its positive feedback. And so when you thread it through that filter, you can see how there's just no empathy. Well, it's positive feedback, I want you to do better than that's where it's like, they've missed the point. When I was in Chevron, and have talks about it, we did the looking for a hot cup in the Golden Valley. And we were trying to do the rest of really interesting, really good I stalking the cop call, the other court had the boss called in saying stop looking for this cop. He does, he's uncomfortable with what's happening. And so we get pulled into a meeting room, and it just got laid on us. And that I remember the feeling. And it was the time that I felt like it was it was a it was a response. It was feedback on something that we had taken the initiative to do, and had support from a few people around us. But then as soon as it went bad, it's like they weren't on our side. Like what the fuck have you guys done? And then it's like, that's where there was a lack of empathy. Yeah, in their approach, because now we're trying to save face. And you know, stakeholder management. Yeah. nothing ever happened.
I mean, one of
one of the interesting bits of feedback, I saw the other day, I had a meeting, where a guy referred to a female colleague is a bowl breaker. Yeah. And the one of the other colleague said, I resent that
Danish he did have his nuts on the title. And she did.
But she said, I resent that. Because if she wasn't a woman, that's fair enough, they wouldn't. And so that type of feedback is, like if that if someone had said that, to me, I would have felt really upset like, I would have been so embarrassed. But in that moment, I was like, do is the is it appropriate in that moment, like a moment to back this person up? Like the female who's created the compliant? Like, yeah, man, that's not cool.
It didn't it definitely didn't feel. I think we will get it right. Just be quiet. Yeah.
Because someone's brought up the feedback. So cross your legs.
Yeah, it's hard, you know, hard enough. Now, I know, I get that. I think it's a complex world. This is Terry. This is the last one from Terry, some people, self criticise so much low self esteem, that when another person offers constructive criticism, it feels like they're overwhelmed, and pushes their self esteem down even more. It's just another instance of criticism is a fucking complex thing. Yeah. Because you're dealing with humans, which are layered and come from, you know, different upbringings and ship, everything plays a part. And this and the challenge, I think, is someone who is a leader or time who needs to be a leader in an organisation. That's a challenge of how do you approach hundreds of different not say, if you got 10 people working for you, there's 10 different approaches that need to be taken or consideration. But I think the back heel and toe analogy allows you to sort of have more of a subjective or empathetic, empathetic and thoughtful approach to whether you and how you give the feedback. Yeah. All right.
bit of feedback. I think we've done to the feedback thing.
Well, if there's ever a time there was a feedback. Hi, at the daily talk. show.com.
What else is going on? We've been just trying to pivot. Yeah,
you've given feedback. The feedback is that
now you can go hot Yeah, there's there's this. There's too much feedbacks talk. So
yeah, now what else is going on? What's been happening?
What was the podcast I was listening to today? The one I told you about? The dude, the accidental creative? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. The dude who and I was thinking we could maybe do this, this company that started a online cloud based invoicing system are you going to say I don't know how we're going to do big ol Thank you, I created an online invoice system that is basically like a, an accounting software, cloud based, and they create for their own business, then launched it, and then it was doing really well, but then they created their competitor. So they never told anyone that this business was run by them. And they got the other one. Right. So they looked at all the things that I had wrong with, they won that that were leading with that was their organisation or name or whatever. And then what they did is told everyone that they acquired that their competitor, and they competitor was just them, and they acquired it and then change their system over to the new one.
It's not really being super authentic, is it?
Well, there are so one of the values of this company was was the court fact, stealth.
Stealth isn't a weird value.
When you're positive like you could be like just do things quietly without making a big
fucking deal of it. So these two owners didn't tell their partners, their wives that they built this other thing and that they're about to launch it took them months and months and months. And then on the day it happened. It I told they was the divorce. But they said we're we're a value driven company. That is and that's stealth. inaction. It's a good that's a good podcast, accidental creative it's sick with the listeners i thought you know, actually we're telling people but we're not a stealth that's not one of our Valley man small media company.
This is what the antithesis
yeah so we create small media company that does everything that we actually we just we just create it and do everything better than we're doing at the
moment I'll see if I should I buy a small media controlled media company
it's a bit of a fun approach because when you go there it takes you to big
media company what we could do is renderer our website to translate
really small logo Yeah, we make small videos they four seconds. And that's pretty funny. And everything is just a pint sized version of our big media company. What would be the the competitor of the daily talk show? The the weekly talk show know the ones awake talk show.
We could create characters that could be fun. Talk show everyone hi at the deli talk show calm if you want to send us an email Otherwise, we'll see you
tomorrow on feedback on you asking me just randomly what uh, what else is going on? Yeah, we shot myself. Not much. Bye bye.