Negative Feedback

Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface! The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, episode 216.

Tommy: Yeah, it's a hot one. We're in our studio and we've got no aircon.

Josh: Uh, it is Tuesday here in Melbourne.

Tommy: It is. It feels It feels later in the week.

Josh: I just turned up your microphone a little bit too much. That's okay.

Tommy: Thanks, I'm happy to take the, uh, the high volume.

Josh: Extra volume.

Tommy: You just reduce it in post.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: So that you just got stronger vocals than me. Have you ever done that? Let's be honest. Have you given yourself a nice enhancer and, oh, forgot to put it on TJ?

Josh: I think I've just got better mic technique though.

Tommy: You definitely do.

Josh: I probably sound a bit clearer.

Tommy: But you did say that Howard Stern has a different filter. Or some old school radio presenters.

Josh: Yeah, they just use like these big condenser microphones.

Tommy: What does that mean?

Josh: So it's what they add— what's that? Oh, it's from my headphones. My headphones are—

Tommy: Oh, they're full of the stuff on the actual ear bits.

Josh: They're going gross.

Tommy: Like the black vinyl is sort of peeling off.

Josh: It's disgusting.

Tommy: Yeah, so what's condenser?

Josh: So they'll have like a condenser mic, which is just— it picks up sort of a richer sound and they'll add a compressor to it which even boosts again. So it's almost like when they go real right into the mic.

Tommy: But they're just talking normally.

Josh: Yeah, they're talking fairly normally.

Tommy: I did like— it's the worst. The closest I'll admit to the fact that I like the sound of my own voice is when you actually talk. Like, I don't— listening to my voice now, I don't think it sounds that great. I don't have headphones on. But when you are in a radio studio and it have— it does have a processing filter on it.

Josh: Well, I was just testing it out before. Did you notice that you're going to sound different?

Tommy: Oh yeah, it sounded so much better. And it's how it sounds on the other side. So it's like, yeah, it's— I wish I could just walk around with radio voice. It does emphasising the bass in your—

Josh: sounds authoritative.

Tommy: Yeah, in your voice.

Josh: You and I were just having a long discussion Yeah, it's, um, it's something I actually wanted to talk about on this podcast, um, and that is feedback. Before today you wanted to talk about, or just after spending an hour?

Tommy: No, I wanted to get into it. It's funny how things come out. I wanted to get into— because I heard this guy say no one takes feedback well, and it's one of your things. You love asking people, what do you think of the podcast? Even when they're on the show.

Josh: Do you think I've stopped that though?

Tommy: I think you've slowed down because you haven't got a response. I've And it's been a fascinating experience watching people and how they react when you say to them, "Any feedback on the podcast?" Uh, we haven't had one negative piece of feedback. This is not a time for you to send negative feedback to hi@thedailytalkshow.com.

Josh: They can.

Tommy: You can.

Josh: Michelle's always been good with that.

Tommy: Yeah, she has. But I think in person, it's like, for instance, what we want is some kind of constructive—

Josh: That's why we can't meet Michelle in person, 'cause she'll just rip us a new one.

Tommy: Positive feedback. We want a person to go, I didn't like when you guys do that, and then we can work up from there. But what I've seen online is that this guy, I can't remember who it was, but he was saying people cannot take feedback well.

Josh: Well, and probably to Seth Godin's point where he says that if someone writes a, asks for a blurb from him, he'll either say yes and do it or he'll say he's too busy. He won't tell them that it was shit work.

Tommy: Because shit's hard to handle from a bloke like Seth Godin.

Josh: Yeah, or anyone.

Tommy: Yeah, anyone, but I think the people with higher status I'd probably be more affected by. It's like the bloke— I think that's what we do. I think there's so many ways of reacting to feedback. Justifications, I'm not wrong, you're wrong, okay, that's awesome, I'm going to take that on board. And from our conversation, I actually think that the dude who said people can't handle feedback at all is a fucking idiot.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Because he hasn't looked at the bones of feedback. And that's what we spent the last hour just going through and really, we actually drew a diagram that was based of like back, heel and toe. So it's almost like we stripped it back and we looked at the bones of what receiving a piece of feedback and then that response to the feedback looks like.

Josh: Yeah. Well, I was talking about the feedback is you're providing feedback to the referred pain, not where the actual pain comes from.

Tommy: Yeah, and if you'd, I mean, that's, yeah, we got there based around, and if you look at it from a broad perspective, when someone offers you feedback, they are, whether they like it or not, taking into consideration the little context or the large amount of context that they have about that specific piece of feedback. And that's the thing I gave you.

Josh: The gist is I gave Josh a bit of feedback and the feedback was that I ask questions of clients and then I can fall into, if they don't have a response straight away, I'll then do what I like to call a Tim Ferriss because that's his whole fucking podcast. Yeah. So I'll give you an example.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: So I'd say, hey, you're asking me a question. Yeah, I'll do it.

Tommy: Hey Josh.

Josh: 'How are you?' Because I think that how good you are can say a lot about how a person is in their general life.

Tommy: Uh, what was the first question? Yeah, is my response. That's— and that was, that was the feedback based around maybe losing the first initial impactful question. Yeah, because I want to answer that. But what I've learned is, and this is why I've sort of done a bit of a 360, 180, 360, I'm at the same place again.

Josh: I've already got vertigo now.

Tommy: Yeah, I'm a bit dizzy. No, I've done a 180 in terms of—

Josh: That didn't take long, like you've done a whole 180 on this whole thing after a 40-minute chat.

Tommy: Yeah, I think for the kind of person I am or the kind of way I approach this, I don't bring up, I don't take into consideration context. If something hasn't been going well in the lead up to it, what does this mean? Why do you think this person was doing this kind of thing?

Josh: Or like, I think, isn't it just empathy? Yeah, that's empathy. Yeah, what might be happening?

Tommy: Yeah, where are they at?

Josh: What sort of feedback have you, like what is the top 3 bits of feedback that you've received in your life and how have you taken it? How do you feel about it?

Tommy: Yeah, see, I don't, oh yeah, the one in the bath. The one in the spa, um, Conspiracy Jimmy. I'll call him Best Mate Campton for this one because he was being a best mate. Best Mate Campton.

Josh: And now you've given out his full name, like you really— for Campton, is he the street address?

Tommy: Best Mate Campton, he, uh, he and this bloke Karim, another best mate, um, he and Karim in a spa basically tell me, you're being a fucking idiot. And I just remember it was a massive shift for me, and I— it was like it shook me out of a mindset, or so.

Josh: Like, you start wanking straight away?

Tommy: 100%.

Josh: What were you doing?

Tommy: Tissues were plenty in my house.

Josh: No, what were you doing?

Tommy: I can't remember. I think it was just like—

Josh: was that you were wanking in the spa?

Tommy: No, we're just chilling in the spa.

Josh: So what was it? So was that— were you doing something dumb in the spa?

Tommy: No, no, I think it was like they kind of said Dude, we need to have a chat to you. Yeah.

Josh: How old would you have been?

Tommy: 16, 16, 17. Dude, we need to talk to you. And I fucking— I truly see the moment as a pivotal period in my thinking.

Josh: And so you were— did they say that before you got into the spa? Was like, hey man, we want to speak to you about something?

Tommy: No, I just remember the feeling like you probably felt before when I gave you feedback, where you just like, like you You sort of like, it's like almost adrenaline sort of rushes your body. And the thing is I didn't react poorly to it. Meaning it was an, I think I probably knew or it was something like I just kind of like listened to them. And I remember feeling after like, fuck me.

Josh: How did they give it? So what did they say?

Tommy: I cannot remember. This is the thing. We should see if James remembers or Karim remembers. I think it was just like I was being, an obnoxious piece of shit. I was young and I like, I was really just sort of leading, trying to lead the way a lot of the time. Like, I just remember maybe it was just my world. Like, I, maybe I was just a bit thinking everything was about me. But, but it was—

Josh: Did you feel like because it was two mates doing it, do you think that hurt more because it meant that they were having these sideline conversations that you weren't privy to?

Tommy: Yeah, I don't think I think I thought that I didn't think I felt that deep. I actually was just like, fuck, this must be real. And I just remember taking it. Well, that was the one. But the thing in radio, and if I'm to take my thinking behind not wanting and the pushback I had on receiving feedback from sort of radio people, what would they say? And people in Melbourne, it wasn't bad, but I'm just like, you send an air check, which is like, you know, taking this show and sending it to somebody else. And my thinking was this fucker has no idea what it's like living in Shepparton and the lack of resources we have, which is the whole empathy thing. They don't take into consideration that we're trying to do this on the fly, and then they nitpick because you've asked them, give us some feedback. And that nitpicking essentially is for you to be great at something, but the trust hasn't been built with this person. You see them as a leader or superior to you, so then you're like Well, do they even care?

Josh: But your point being that you were thinking that if you don't speak directly to it, like if you use the empathy thing, are you worried that you're not going to be as direct and you're sort of fluffing around the actual problem?

Tommy: Was I worried about that?

Josh: Yeah, is it like that seemed like it was a word, like the justification that you gave?

Tommy: Because based on not wanting to hear the feedback?

Josh: Well, because I straight away said, okay, well, um, 'If you're gonna point out that I do this, you do this.' Yeah.

Tommy: 'And you also do this.' Which I can't do to the boss. 'Cause you're like, 'Well, you're a piece of shit, mate.' Yeah. 'Let's bring up your fucking tapes from years ago, Craig Bruce.' And so what do you remember?

Josh: What would you feel like in those moments where they would nitpick?

Tommy: Yeah, I just, I didn't see it as being constructive. As much as they thought it was constructive feedback, I thought it could cloud me and having my head down in a time where I'm still learning how to fucking talk.

Josh: Is there a difference between asking for feedback and just getting it without asking? Do you think that the person who asks for feedback and then gets it— we also just commented, I don't know if the mics can pick up on it, it's been a car alarm going off. I hope it's not my car.

Tommy: Nah, car's too far away from here.

Josh: Yeah, do you think that there's a difference if you ask for it versus you just getting it unprompted?

Tommy: I think there is a difference. Getting it unprompted. You might not have even wanted it, and it might come from someone that you didn't want it from. And want— yeah, you want to hear it from, or that they— what I've, what I've learned over the years is I am selective of who I want to hear feedback from and who matters to me. And so there are some people, like, there is a bunch of people close to me that I'm actually just vibing off them. And you know what, it becomes half, half the time it's your partner, right? Like, I reckon Amy has given Amy and you, Amy and you have given me more feedback on things about production and more so Amy, she's not a production person. But it's a safe space, she can be critical. I love her, I know she loves me. So I take it on. And so it's not, what I'm saying is don't run away from feedback or even the opportunity to get feedback. It's also about who the fuck the feedback's from.

Josh: Well, you were saying you gave me another piece of feedback, which is I'm bad at taking feedback.

Tommy: Yeah, it probably— it's basically saying, um, calm down. That's what— to someone who's hyperventilating, stop breathing so fast.

Josh: But I, I don't— I, I wasn't like— how would you say the reaction goes? Because it's— I wasn't like, there's a fuck you, no, you piece of shit.

Tommy: What I will say is it's a slow creep towards being defensive.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Which is, I think—

Josh: A slow blow up.

Tommy: It's a slow blow up. And we defuse the blow up by talking through it. And what we got at the other side was a dog's leg.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Or a diagram.

Josh: So the point being that if you've got a sore, if there's a sore back and then the heel is sore because of that, and then the toe is sore because of that, if Tommy is the toe, he would naturally, him providing just feedback to me.

Tommy: Which is the heel.

Josh: Which is the heel. Is missing out on the fact that the heel's pain is coming from the back.

Tommy: So it's referred pain.

Josh: Yeah, and so you should at least reference the back if you're going to reference the heel.

Tommy: Yeah, which is another way of saying be a bit more thoughtful about the way you approach any feedback to anybody because there is a lot of things at play. And so that's what I don't— that's what I think people miss out on. It's definitely what I I didn't do.

Josh: But also, if you don't do it, I reckon that half the— if people who don't use that filter, yeah, they actually— if they use that filter, they probably wouldn't end up giving you feedback because they would realize— I'd say, oh, like, the— of course the heel is going to act like this because of look at the back. And me mentioning it there, it doesn't actually add anything.

Tommy: And I think there's a caveat around at some times, and it's making a call about, do I bring this up because I think it's massive? And that's the thing, we talked about feedback being subjective. It's just what you think. It's not the truth. It is a truth to what you were believing in your experiences, you know, context. And so if that is the truth, then there's so many things at play.

Josh: And then I went into—

Tommy: I lost my train of thought.

Josh: I started saying that that you giving the feedback is a self-fulfilling prophecy. So this idea that, oh well, now that you've said it, it's gonna become like it is a thing now.

Tommy: Which I, it's what I love about you, how we just deconstruct things. But for a dumbass like me, it actually can make, it makes sense.

Josh: Don't say you're a dumbass 'cause it might be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Tommy: No, it's the playing it down. I actually think I'm fucking intelligent. No, but I think there is a— and Amy and I have spoken about this— I actually think I get you more so because I get Amy. And so I like— there was one thing you said that it just kind of, it fucking hit me, and I was like, I get that, that makes 100%, that had 100% sense.

Josh: It's always funny when that happens though too, when you feel like you've actually won an argument. Like in that moment you're like, oh, that makes complete sense, I'm so sorry.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy: And but I need to bring up those other 4 things you brought up about what I better—

Josh: I better now put the knife in and twist it with I stand by what I said also.

Tommy: No, but I think, yeah, it's hard. I just looked up and Quora, the, the—

Josh: where do you mean? Quora?

Tommy: Quora, is it Quora?

Josh: I don't think it's Quora.

Tommy: Q-U-O-R-A. I'm not fucking intelligent and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Josh: I nearly did it for Who was it? Someone was telling us that, was it? It wasn't Jimmy, it was someone else was saying that we were talking about Quora and then like the next week we're talking about Reddit and we landed on Reddit. Like, oh, I think it was Russ Keys.

Tommy: Oh yeah.

Josh: It could have got, we could have ended up on his Quora page.

Tommy: We resort back to Quora when we want an answer for something.

Josh: Quora.

Tommy: That isn't.

Josh: What is it?

Tommy: So I just typed in feedback 'Why does—' and it came up with 'Why do some people— why do some people— why can't some people handle this?' I'll read it how it is. I'm trying to deconstruct. 'Why do some people can't handle and/or take constructive criticism very well?' Okay. Um, and it had a bunch of stuff, it went into it, but there is one bit where it says 'Different things work for different people at different times.' Fuck, okay. 'The grass is sometimes greener.' on the other side. Anyway, uh, it gives you 1 to 5 on some things that you can— should consider when giving feedback. And I just— let's, let's— I'll just read them out and let's see if we can run through.

Josh: Preface who, who wrote this. Who the top answer— it always has their name.

Tommy: His name's David.

Josh: David. Is it like Dr. David? Is it David?

Tommy: David Kornblatt, media physical, trusted advisor, head thinker.

Josh: Okay, I mean, if I saw that title, head thinker, I'd hire him. First acquisition. Already two head thinkers here.

Tommy: Yeah, number one, notice how I said things to consider and not things you need to do. This allows the recipient to make their own choice. What does that mean? Notice how, notice how I'd said things to consider. This allows us to—

Josh: Do one more because these aren't making that much sense.

Tommy: Lower your voice or speak softly and slowly, not loud and overpowering. Okay, yeah, we can do that. I think that's a general rule when you're communicating something that you want to get across. Yeah, don't yell. In your thinking, be okay pay if they get it or if they don't.

Josh: So maybe, you know, you're talking about me being bad at receiving feedback. Yeah. Are you— were you bad at receiving, uh, receiving the feedback of the feedback? Yeah, maybe. Maybe not.

Tommy: Um, and then this goes, the recipient will feel the change in your energy and they won't feel wrong. I like to put information out on a buffet and allow the recipient to pick and choose what—

Josh: So you should have taken me to Sizzler. I'll just read 4 and 5.

Tommy: Don't look for them to get it in the moment. Allow them to get it when they are ready.

Josh: I feel like that, that is you. You're, I think, someone who might come back later, or no, I think that what we've discovered with you and I is, say, we'll like argue and probably the first half an hour is just you and I fighting, and then it eventually sort of switches into productive mode.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Um, number 5: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. If you show the horse where water is, they can always come back when they are ready and thirsty. David, fuck me. It's a good—

Josh: they were feedback for David. I mean, it wasn't that like— yes, if you own some horses, it might be a bit handy.

Tommy: This bloke Terry, he's gone hard. Some people grow up with strong criticism and have developed strong defence against any form of criticism. I think I've had to deal with in my life getting better at not being reactive like a barking dog.

Josh: What are some, like, tell me some more. I like, I want to dive into this criticism thing. What other moments have you been given feedback?

Tommy: Go deep. Well, relationship, I think. That's where I've learned a lot about dealing, like dealing with my wife.

Josh: That's the title of the episode, Dealing with My Wife.

Tommy: Better than saying putting up with my wife. Yeah, we— dealing with my wife, being in a relationship with my wife, I've definitely gained more empathy from. I just sometimes come at it like a bull and I don't think about a whole bunch of shit. I can't remember moments at the moment where I've received criticism. But no, the big one was Jimmy and Karim. It was full on. It was like a pivotal moment.

Josh: I remember being sat down. I'd— my boss had gone away overseas for, I think it was about a month. And then they came back and I was new at the company and I'd done all of this other work. But I hadn't done the work that they set out for me to do. And I remember I was writing a blog and I only got to the point of getting— basically doing an interview with an architect and transcribing the interview. But they, I think, were expecting to see the entire, entire blog post, right? Yeah. And so the EA contacts me just before my boss gets back from overseas, and she says, hey Josh, can you send me through all the work? Your boss wants to see it before he catches up with you. Um, and this was like on a Friday, and it catches up for you on the Monday. And I said to the EA, I'm like, actually, it's not where it needs to be. I was planning on doing like a big time crunch on the weekend, just smash it all out. Classic JoJo. And I made the mistake of just being like, oh, like the EA made me feel comfortable. So I was like, maybe I'll just give it a crack. I'll just send them this transcript of this interview that I did with the architect.

Tommy: The whole thing?

Josh: Yeah, the whole thing. Anyway, the— my boss and like my boss's boss ended up sitting in a room with me, and they were just like, so tell us about the, the post, the, the blog post. And I sort of explained at the time, and they just— I remember they gave me like a letter, and it was like I had only just been at the company for like 2 months, and like listing all the things that they wanted to see improvement-wise. And then how about this, they'd actually gone through— I think the only reason I kept my job was because they went through and spoke to all these other people within the business and was asking what I was doing, and they came back like all these people who are like— I was going above and beyond all these other people where they're like, oh, they needed this. Oh yeah, of course I'll help you, I can help you for a couple of days on that. Like, just fucking trying to be Mr. Helpful but not doing any of the shit that I was asked to do beforehand. And I reckon the only thing that saved me was all those people had given me glowing reviews on like, yeah, Josh was great, he helped us with creating a whole social media strategy and worked on this.

Tommy: But I remember at that point feeling pretty sick, and so My thought around how you responded to the feedback before we sort of dived into it was there's an option of taking on feedback and just saying, okay, that's— I could maybe apply this. And some people do. I think— what do I do? What's your thoughts on what I do, um, around feedback?

Josh: I think it depends.

Tommy: Not based on the 4 things you brought up to crush my one thing.

Josh: No, I think that but generally in the moment you can just— it normally has— I think there's types of feedback that I can give is more in the moment and it requires a change of action, change of course, if that makes sense. So I'd be saying, don't do it like this, do it this way. And you're pretty good, you just do it the way that I say, don't you think? Yeah, yeah, I'd agree.

Tommy: I think I just— if there's If I really thought it needed pushback, I'd say get fucked.

Josh: But I think that you would— you'd be more likely to give, uh, pushback if something had happened previously and I bring it up after the fact, which is less likely but would normally potentially end up in a blow-up. Whereas me saying, no, don't send them that email, send them this email, or nah, don't wait until then, just do it now, which is some— is in some regards a form of feedback, isn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think any feeling of doing the wrong thing, or a way of saying you guys did this and you shouldn't have done that, is feedback, and it's, it's nega— it's, it's— see, this is a thing, people paint them into constructive, or it's like negative, or it's positive feedback. And so when you thread it through that filter, you can see how there's just no empathy. For the moment, you're like, well, it's positive feedback, I want you to do better, then that's where it's like they've missed the point. When I was in Shepparton, and I've talked about it, we did the, um, looking for a hot cop in the Goulburn Valley, and we were trying to— nearly got arrested, nearly got arrested, nearly got a stalking charge. The cop called the— the cop had the boss called in saying, stop looking for this cop, he does— he's uncomfortable with what's happening. And so we get pulled into a meeting room, and it just got laid on us. And I remember the feeling, and it was the time that I felt like it was, it was, it was a response, it was feedback on something that we had taken the initiative to do and had support from a few people around us. But then as soon as it went bad, it's like they weren't on our side. Like, what the fuck have you guys done? And then it's like, that's where there was a lack of empathy in their approach because they were trying to save face. And, you know, stakeholder management. Yeah. And nothing ever happened.

Josh: I mean, one of them found him. One of the interesting bits of feedback, I saw it the other day at a meeting where a guy referred to a female colleague as a ball breaker. Yeah. And the one of the other colleagues said, I resent that.

Tommy: In fairness, he did have his nuts on the table and she hit it with a hammer.

Josh: No, but she said, I resent that because because if she wasn't a woman, um, that's fair enough, they wouldn't. And so that type of feedback is like, if that— if someone had said that to me, I would have felt really upset. Like, I would have been so embarrassed. But in that moment, I was like, do— is the— is it appropriate in that moment, like, a moment to back this person up? Like, the female who's created the complaint? Like, yeah, man, that's not cool. No, definitely, definitely not.

Tommy: I think people get it, right?

Josh: Just be quiet. Yeah, because someone's brought up the feedback. So it's cross your legs.

Tommy: Yeah, it's hide your nuts. Hide your nuts. No, no, I get that. I think it's a complex world. This is Terry. This is the last one from Terry. Some people self-criticize so much, low self-esteem, that when another person offers constructive criticism, it feels like they are overwhelmed and pushes their self-esteem down even more. It's just another instance of criticism is a fucking complex thing. Yeah, because you're dealing with humans which are layered and come from, you know, different upbringings and shit. Everything plays a part. And the challenge, I think, is someone who is a leader or someone who needs to be a leader in an organization, that's a challenge of How do you approach hundreds of different— not to say if you've got 10 people working for you, there's 10 different approaches that need to be taken or considerations. But I think the, um, the back heel and toe analogy allows you to sort of have more of a subjective or empathetic, empathetic and thoughtful approach to whether you and how you give the feedback.

Josh: Yeah. All right, a bit of feedback. I think we've done to death the feedback thing.

Tommy: Well, if there's ever a time to receive feedback, hi@thedailytalkshow.com. What else is going on?

Josh: We've been just— Are you trying to pivot?

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Oh, you've given feedback, then we need to move on. The feedback is that, yeah. No, you can go hard.

Tommy: Yeah, there's too much feedback talk, so.

Josh: Yeah, no, what else is going on? What's been happening?

Tommy: What was the podcast I was listening to today? The one I told you about, the dude, the Accidental Creative. Oh yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. The dude who, and I was thinking we could maybe do this, this company that started an online cloud-based invoice system.

Josh: I know what you're gonna say, I don't know how we're gonna do it, but go on.

Tommy: Well, they created an online invoice system that is basically like an accounting software that's cloud-based., and they created for their own business, then launched it, and then it was doing really well, but then they created their competitor. So they never told anyone that this business was run by them. So weird. And they got the other one right, so they looked at all the things that they had wrong with their one that they were leading with, that was the organisational name or whatever, and then what they did is told everyone that they acquired their competitor, and their competitor was just them, and they acquired it and then changed their system over to the new one.

Josh: It's not really being super authentic, is it? Well, there are—

Tommy: so one of their values of this company, um, was, uh, what's it called? Fuck, um, stealth. Yeah, stealth. Isn't that a weird value?

Josh: I guess it's like positive, like you could be like, just do things Quietly without making a big fucking deal about it.

Tommy: Yeah, so these two owners didn't tell their partners, their wives, that they'd built this other thing and that they were about to launch. It took them months and months and months. And then on the day it happened, they told their wives. They're divorced. No, but they said, we're a value-driven company. And that's stealth in action.

Josh: It's a good, that's a good podcast, Accidental Creative, It's sick. Worth a listen anyway.

Tommy: So I thought, you know, actually we're telling people, but we're not a stealth— that's not one of our values. Small Media Company. This is what the antithesis— yeah, so we create Small Media Company that does everything that we actually— we just, we just create it and do everything better than we're doing at the moment.

Josh: I'll see if that— should I buy smallmediacompany.com?

Tommy: Small Media Company. It's a bit of a fun approach because when you go there it takes you to Big Media Company.

Josh: Media company, what we could do is render our website 2 times smaller.

Tommy: Really small logo. Yeah, we make small videos, they're 4 seconds, and that's pretty funny. And so everything is just a pint-sized version of our big media company.

Josh: What would be the, the competitor of the daily talk show?

Tommy: Uh, um, the, the, the weekly talk show? No, the once a week talk show. Talk show.

Josh: We could create characters that could be fun. The Daily Talk Show, everyone. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. Otherwise, we'll see you tomorrow.

Tommy: Have a good one. Hang on, feedback on you asking me just randomly what I— what else is going on. Yeah, nearly shat myself.

Josh: There's not much going on. Bye-bye.