Craig Harper & Your Internal Voice

Craig: Wait a minute!

Tommy: Crossface!

Craig: The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jacklin.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show episode 208.

Tommy: We've got a friend of the show back, Craig Harper.

Craig: Hi boys, just really terrific to see your handsome little faces Thanks, mate.

Tommy: Well, we're back in your house or in your studio. It's nice. I've seen since last time there's some books have started piling up. I take it you've read them.

Craig: I've read all of them. I bring more and more books in just so that people will think I'm learned. And you've fallen for it, Tom.

Tommy: The Elon Musk book. What do you think of Elon Musk?

Craig: Elon Musk is, he's an alien. So he's not, he's more humanoid than human. Yeah, um, I like— I, I'm interested in interesting people. So do I like him? Yeah, I like him. I think he's cool. I think he's interesting. I think he's, you know, he's like everyone, he's got issues. And sometimes he says things I'm like, fuck, really? He really— that's, that's what you're going with? But what I do love about him, um, when I watched 3 hours of him, uh, with Joe Rogan, or 2 or 2 and a half hours or whatever it was, was He doesn't say things flippantly. He's very thoughtful. Like, Joe would ask him a question and he would, um, it would literally take 20 seconds before the first word of the answer came out. I'm like, God, come on. Um, yeah, I reckon he's— I think some people who are like that, who are intellectually and creatively, uh, amazing, are sometimes perceived to be a little bit socially awkward, clunky, and inept. And he is all of that. But if you can, you know, get your way around that, I think he's fascinating. You know, I don't think everything he does is necessarily terrific, but I like him. I'm interested in people like that.

Josh: Do you think people put too much emphasis on— they see the Elon Musks or the Steve Jobs and they try and deconstruct? Well, you know, Steve Jobs was an asshole, so maybe this is a management style.

Craig: Yeah, maybe. I think also, you know, especially everyone says this, it sounds a little cliché, but But sometimes, not all, but some Aussies are pretty good at just trying to find what's wrong with someone who's doing great. I personally, even if somebody is a bit of a dickhead on one hand but a high achiever on the other, well, I'm not that I condone anything, any bad behaviour or whatever, but at the same time, I'm very much, and I know this sounds a bit philosophical, but I'm like, well, what can I learn from this dude? Even, even, you know, you guys, you've met some amazing people over the journey with your podcast. Even sitting talking to people, stuff rubs off, you know. And because in the era of the podcast where so many of all of us have access to, you know, conversations like this, um, with people much more interesting than me, thank God, you know, you can— you're literally, uh, sitting at a cyber table with a bunch of people just having a fucking great conversation. And for me That, that I reckon the podcast is, for me personally, it's the best invention of the last two decades. Well, internet slash podcast, all of it goes together, but because it's revolutionised my life, because I am innately curious and I spent a lot of my life not being able to access interesting, fascinating, clever people because you'd have to go and read a book, which is okay, but it's not really the same as listening to Elon Musk have a conversation. You know, or Russell Brand or whoever it is, people that I just find, you know, all ends of the spectrum really fascinating. But, uh, like, I listened to the podcast that you guys did with, um, Seth.

Josh: Um, it's wrapped up on Josh.

Tommy: He now, uh, has gone bald like Seth Godin.

Josh: Getting there. Yeah, transitioning, transitioning naturally.

Craig: See, I don't— and I don't reckon people— this sounds judgy, I don't mean it to— but I don't think a lot of people understand Like, you guys, when you said, oh, we've got Seth, I was so fucking proud and jealous. Yeah, probably about 70% jealous, 30% proud. Yeah. Um, that you're talking to, in my opinion, one of the greatest minds in the world. Like, I just love the way that Seth Godin thinks. I'm fascinated with— I don't really give a fuck about bodies, which is ironic because I'm an exercise scientist and I come from that background. Back Bodies are okay, we all have one, we need one to get around, but I'm far more fucking fascinated in people and human behaviour and the way that we think and the way that we create, you know, reality and the way that we process the world around us and the way that we, you know, what does Seth do? Break it down. Oh, he has ideas, he shares ideas, he writes books, he does a few keynotes, uh, he has some courses. Um, uh, and I love the way it's— what's his MBA in? What's it called? Old MBA. And he's like, it's proudly unaccredited. I'm like, so fucking clever. So because, you know, it's like you're selling the thing that people might want to try to criticise you on. No, there's no fucking, um, accreditation. It's not recognised anywhere, but by the way, it's brilliant. It's so clever. It's so clever, you know.

Josh: And so the podcasting versus— because you're in the unique position where you've done the radio thing, and we've had people who have had, you know, TJ's had his own journey with radio, I've had mine, but you've got a bit of a— I feel like you've got a different perspective in radio where it's like you're not trying to play the FM, you know, shock jockey or, you know, or anything like that. What's been the learning in doing a podcast versus that whole radio thing?

Craig: Yeah, so I did a lot of talk radio. So I did 12 years on SEN and, you know, other stuff on FM. But even the stuff that I did on FM was— apart from Light FM— but all the stuff I did on like Gold, which I was on Gold for maybe 5 or 6 years, it was me sharing thoughts and ideas. So it's still talk-based. But I guess the difference between podcasting and radio is the freedom. You know, and there are no rules, you know. I mean, you've got to be— there's a point, I guess, but you create your own rules. What do we want to talk about? Where are we going? What's our theme? What are our ideas? How long does it go for? Even before the start, I went, so how long are we chatting for? You're like, you guys go, I don't know, 40. I'm like, 40, cool, then let's go and fucking eat stuff. Perfect. What a plan. Like, you can't do that with radio, as you know. We're coming out of the news at 6 minutes past 9, and then we've got this bloke, then we've got that bloke. You've got 4 and a half minutes with him, then we're going, and there'll be a sting to that. Then we come back, and don't forget to back announce that when we come out of the—

Josh: you know, just Did you like the mechanics of that?

Craig: I like that, but I like to freestyle in the middle of it. You know, it's like even when I worked on Channel 10, um, I did— I remember one day I was at the Showgrounds or somewhere. I was doing a—

Tommy: not at the show, at the Melbourne Show.

Craig: I was doing an OB. Oh yeah, I was doing an OB.

Josh: We're doing a few of those.

Craig: We're getting Crosster Harps out at, you know, and he's chatting with— and they wanted it scripted. I'm like, I can't do it. Yeah, they're like, they want it all autocue and, oh, now we're chatting with Brian from bloody Brian, so question one. So tell me how— I'm like, I can't. Just let me fucking talk to Brian and it'll be all right, you know. And, uh, so that for me, um, that the organic nature of podcasts is just a beautiful fit for my personality and my skills and the stuff that I enjoy.

Tommy: The long-form stuff, I, I think I love. And I think you, Josh, you know, I think you've tried the talking to camera, but I think what resonates mostly with you is a long-form conversation where you can get really layered.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Um, Craig's the old OG blogger. How many subscribers to your blog? Because I— that's how I first came into your world.

Craig: At its zenith, Tom, a legit 75,000.

Tommy: Yeah, it's crazy. And how often were you doing it?

Craig: Every day. So you'd— and it would go to 75,000 inboxes.

Josh: You're Seth Godin with biceps.

Craig: Uh, and a fucking heart. Half his IQ and a millionth of his money.

Tommy: Were you— was Seth Godin on your radar then when you were blogging?

Craig: I used to, um, I used to read his blog, uh, all the time. Yeah, yeah. And, and I mean, that the introduction of the blog was amazing too. Um, sorry, I'm off mic. I should know better. Um, yeah, I mean, and there are like— I used to read a guy for years called Steve Pavlina, who is this dude who is this weird kind of motivation mindset guy who went off the rails and almost started a Cult, I think. But, um, no, interesting.

Josh: We've all done it.

Craig: We're trying. Well, I have a cult, so we're actually part of it. I want to plug that at the end if we can. Um, that's what I've always thought, you know, if I was going to have— I'm not going to have a cult, but if I was going to have a cult, I'd call it a fucking cult, and people can't go, oh, that's a— I go, of course it is, it's in the name, you dickhead. Yeah, it's called Craig's Cult for a reason.

Josh: It's the uncertified cult. It's the Seth Godin strategy.

Craig: Unapologetically, you know, cultish, cultish group. So relaxed.

Josh: Do you think that podcasting, like this long-form thing, are we in a bubble? Do we think it's like fucking bee's knees, or do you think the world cares about this shit, or are we just— have we created our own bubble?

Craig: Well, the people who don't care about it, they're dying soon because they're old as fuck, and all the, all the Well, it's talk, right?

Josh: In some regards.

Craig: Well, this is great.

Josh: This is similar to talk radio.

Craig: Exactly. This is, this is, you know, I mean, when TV came in, everybody had their, you know, like a lot of people didn't want to do TV because they somehow thought it was evil and corrupt, you know, um, just like people didn't want to even appreciate rock and roll or whatever. And I think people tell themselves, people don't understand, but I reckon I've personally turned 1,000 people onto podcasts because I often in front of an audience, like one of my, you know, top 10 messages is hang out with people who drag you up. And people go, often go to me, oh yeah, but you know, my brother's a fuckwit and I've got 3 friends and 2 of them are, you know, bloody dirtbags and whatever. I go, I get it. So you don't need to be in the same room. I hang out with, um, Joe Rogan, or I hang out with Seth Godin, or I hang out with Russell Brand, or I hang out with, um Sorry to the people who are just hanging out with the Daily Talk Show. But what it is, it's you, you are, you know, you're not in the conversation, but you're in the conversation. Because like, the best part about what I love about this is there is no, oh, hang on, let's, uh, can we just, can we do that bit again? Yeah, hang on. And let's from the top, Tom. Yeah, there's none of that. It's just a conversation with, you know, peaks and troughs and ebbs and flows. And, um, I, I think I think what's going to happen with podcasts is, which is like any business or product or service, uh, the good ones will thrive and the shit ones won't. You know, I remember Seth saying to you guys, the average audience is 100 people. Yeah. Um, and of the average podcast, right? So then you factor in all the ones that have got tens of millions of, you know, like Joe, who's got, I think, 4+ million subscribers. And then there's the people at the other end who have 3 listeners, you know. And I think those— and also people don't appreciate the work that goes into doing this, like what you guys do, which is 5 days a week of podcast. People don't understand how hard that is. And it's— even though in the moment when you're here, when we're having the conversation, it's nice, it's enjoyable, especially hopefully if you're doing it with somebody that's not a bad person that there's a connection with. But there's the organization, the logistics, the money that you don't make, you know, the time that you invest, the resources that you need, the equipment, the time that you're away from your kid and your missus and all of that stuff, right? To hopefully 3 years down the track have 100,000 listeners per episode and be earning XYZ per year, which is not your total goal, but part of it.

Tommy: Seth said he wrote a blog just after we had seen him, and my friend sent it to me. He goes, coincidence maybe that you guys are on? And it was, uh, Podcasting is the New Blogging, and he was insisting, you know, and he talks about you're not going to make money from podcasting, very unlikely, and that was the same for blogging, and it's more about the principle and, you know, showing up and putting it out there. What, what can you take? Like, if you hit it with the blogging stuff, yeah, what was the thought then? Like Because if the comparison now is podcasting, yeah, and it's like, yeah, what, what's the— what was the thought then? Because there is similarities in the two.

Craig: So I don't—

Josh: this—

Craig: I don't think about making money, um, not, not the way that people might think a business owner would. Um, of course I think about making money in the sense that we need to pay the bills and tick boxes, but my priority— like, I know if my focus is on creating connection, doing good stuff, writing good stuff sharing good ideas. And I even wrote on my, um, I even wrote on my social media the other day, I put up a little whiteboard post that says basically, uh, thanks for letting me help you because it makes me a better version of me, or something fluffy like that. And, and one dude sends me up, yep, sure, whatever. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. And so then I wrote, um, I get it, I get it, but believe it or not The more that I invest into people— so I have, you know, on my, my main Facebook thing, I have 5,000 friends and 25,000 followers, so that's 30. Then I have nearly 20 on the other one, that's 50. Then I have 11 and a half or something on Insta, that's 60 plus. And then I have a few on Twitter and a few on, you know, so maybe heading towards 70,000 people. The vast majority of those people will never buy a book, never spend a a cent, which is cool. Never come to a program, never come to a workshop. Um, and in a nice way, I don't care. I don't care. Like, I get as much joy out of doing a podcast with you guys sitting here just talking to two good guys, and maybe—

Tommy: he's a good-looking—

Craig: good guys, guys, guys— as I do about going and doing a gig for thousands of dollars for NAB or whatever it is. And, and Well, you know, I still need to pay the bills and I still need to tick the boxes and have a business that works and, you know, look after Melissa, pay Melissa, who's my PA/business partner. And but at the same time, I just do things that I like doing and I like talking and I like learning and I like hanging out with interesting people. And so I've basically just, you know, created a situation where that's now my job. You know, where I get paid to talk to people about shit I love. Like, if I was a plumber, I would be talking about this stuff.

Tommy: Yeah, the plumber podcast. I've seen a few plumber podcasts out there. Uh, has, has that at all, like, upon reflection of your life, different stages?

Craig: Yeah.

Tommy: Has it changed?

Craig: Yeah, sure. So I mean, were you the opposite? Yeah, no, not really. I've always been a bit deep and philosophical, but at the same time, you know, somewhat ambitious and excited about, you know, building stuff and creating stuff. Like, I'm pretty good at going, I've got an idea and now I'm doing it.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: Whereas a lot of people are very good at theory and they live there for fucking ever. Whereas I have, you know, like I thought I might write a book, I wrote a book, now I've done 9. I thought I wouldn't mind getting into media, I got— and it's not like someone rang me up and said, do you want a gig?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: You know, and I'm, and I'm not special and I'm not super gifted and I'm not super talented, so there's no ego in this. I'm just saying You know, if you go, all right, there's a thing that I want to do. I want to, I want to do a podcast, right? Or I want to write a book, or I want to do a PhD, or I want to earn $200 grand a year, or I want to overcome that addiction. So you go, cool, that's the goal. Right now, what are the things that I need to do? Not want to do, not what's comfortable, not what's quick, easy, or familiar, but what are the things that I need to do now to make that happen or to make that more likely? To happen, and then they become your non-negotiables. So for me, and you know this story, you know, for a long time I worked in the fitness space and I fucking loved it, and I spent my day in gyms and, you know, coaching, coaching people and training people and educating and doing fitness tests and health evaluations and talking to people about all the practical, the micros and macros and fucking sets and reps and volume and intensity. And then, you know, over time you go, well, probably 27,000 conversations about fat asses and legs is enough, you know. And you go, I'm actually now more interested in the human who lives in the body. I'm more interested in the psychology and the emotion and the fear and the anxiety and the decision-making and the resilience and the creativity and the attitude and the personality than I am the biceps and triceps. And so, because all of that internal stuff drives the external stuff anyway— nobody accidentally eats cake. Nobody accidentally avoids the gym.

Tommy: Josh told a storey a couple of days ago about eating a whole cheesecake.

Josh: It wasn't an accident though, definitely. I had to go to the cheesecake shop and order it and decide to get half-half because you can do that, like pizzas. You can get—

Tommy: cheesecake is Craig's vice that he hasn't— can't go near.

Craig: That's my crack cocaine, dude. So it's like you're talking to an addict about, you know, just some trip you had recently and you expect me to to be fucking happy for you. Fuck you. Fuck you and your cheesecake story.

Tommy: People have made cheesecakes for Craig because they hear him talking about it.

Craig: No, I did a gig in Adelaide once and, uh, I'd, I'd written not long before about my addiction to cheesecake. And I'm kidding, by the way, but about getting— no, get fucked. Um, and, and I— so I did a, an open to the public workshop and there was It was, I don't know, 300. It was quite a few people there. I got 14 cheesecakes. 14 people turned up with a cheesecake for me. I'm like, come on.

Josh: It's like when we went to Geoff Jowett's hotel room and he had heaps of Vegemite and just a horse statue that he'd been given because he really fucking loves horses.

Tommy: He was doing a workshop in Melbourne and the people that came a part of it, right, had gifted him some stuff and they obviously knew what he liked. So he's into the horses.

Josh: But no, you're not a full—

Tommy: A full Shetland pony was in his room.

Josh: It had that vibe. You're not a full cheesecake addict until you shit your pants from doing it. Really? Which I haven't done yet, so I'm all clear. But the podcast—

Craig: I'll keep that in mind. I'm so glad we're going to lunch after this.

Josh: That idea that people, like, I've had people come to us and say, I know I need to do a podcast, a podcast is something that I need to do.

Craig: Yeah.

Josh: Versus where TJ and I have come from is we just fucking love doing this thing. And by the sounds of it, you just love having a conversation. But then there's a lot of coaches who might be really good at coaching and they see what you do or they see other people and it's like, I need to tick this box. Should they bother attempting at all, or is that a, is that a red flag?

Craig: Um, I think as long as they understand what it involves. Um, you're talking about a podcast? Yeah, yeah. What, understand what it involves on a practical level in terms of— people are not, not, not all people, but some people have a very unrealistic expectation of what it's going to be.

Josh: Yeah. You know, they see the shiny results.

Craig: And also, it's like I say to people, I get approached a lot by people who either one, want to be a speaker, two, want to be an author, or three, not so much, but periodically be a podcaster. I'm like, cool, so you want to be a speaker? You want to? Cool. Who do you want to talk to? Ah, well, you know, I mean, you know, anyone. I'm like, Okay, maybe you want to think a bit deeper on that, right? Um, okay, so what are your messages? What? Well, you want to be a speaker, so what are your key messages to the people in the room on the chairs looking at you?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Oh, well, you know, um, I, I just want to, you know, I just want to motivate people. All right, well, no one else has thought of that. Fabulous. Should be a cakewalk. Like, you Which is not to say you can't do it.

Josh: What's the cart before the horse?

Craig: You need to fucking figure out, okay, you want it, cool. Yeah, uh, what's your timeline? What are you going to talk about? What are your messages? What are your storeys around those messages? What's the impact for the audience? What's the potential value? Um, why would someone pick you? Because there's already 10 million people doing that who are ticking all those other boxes, who are ticking all those boxes. Been— now that's not to say you can't do it. That's need to— that's to say you need to go into this if you like. Do you really want to do it? Yeah, because if you do, that's cool. Go in with your eyes wide open and realise that you might have to do somewhere between 1 and 1,000 presentations before someone's going to pay you a fuckload of money, maybe more.

Tommy: What's the consistency in the pre— the people that you've seen come to you that have said, I want to do this, and you've shot them a few questions and have actually gone and done it? What is the consistent thing behind it?

Craig: What do you mean? So like, what's their motivation?

Tommy: Yeah, because I think—

Josh: well, what are the answers to those questions?

Craig: I feel like— okay, so I feel like people— and, and again, you know, like, I'm, I'm not blunt because I want to be blunt. I'm blunt because I don't want people to waste their time, right? So if you want to lose weight and you're ready to do the work, cool, I'll help. Otherwise, fuck off. Right? It's just a pointless conversation. If you want to— if you genuinely want to become a speaker, um, or, or whatever it is, you need to be genuinely ready to do the work, roll up the sleeves, persevere, have a process, have accountability, have structure, get uncomfortable, keep getting uncomfortable, be resilient, deal with peaks, deal with troughs, and and then stick your head up in a year and go, how am I going? Because you might be there, you might be 5% there, you might be nowhere. Um, and that's just the idea of things is way more comfortable and sexy than the practical reality of the process. So, you know, an idea requires no sacrifice or discipline, an intention requires no sweat or energy, but to, to take that thing out of your head from that theoretical construct into a living, breathing organism is just work, right? And people don't want to do the work. This is the common— if you said to me, what's the thing that gets in, you know, if there's one thing that most gets in people's way in terms of stopping them fulfilling their potential, reaching their goal, living their purpose, whatever fluffy label you want— in other words, succeeding, whatever that means to them— it's the fact that they won't do the hard work consistently. They won't get uncomfortable.

Josh: Have you ever done the hard work on something only to discover that you were doing it for a reason outside of those core values? So say as a coach, there's a lot of things that coaches do. They might, they might be speaking, they might be doing workshops, they might have a podcast. Have you ever been in the middle of a stage and going, actually, I've done this to follow the coach narrative versus the thing that I want to do?

Craig: 100%. I've done that, and I did that in business after a while with my gyms. And I won't re-bore the audience with the story, but I woke up one day, had 5 different businesses, and was living in a version of what people thought Craig Harper should do, which is nobody's fault except mine. But I was living the entrepreneurial, right, let's open another gym, let's open another gym, let's get more stuff, let's build a bigger brand. And nothing wrong with that if you're that person, but I'm not really an entrepreneur. I don't love that. What I love is this. What I love is teaching and coaching and writing and talking and connecting and laughing my ass off and having fun.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: And having one or two people who work with me, not 100. Um, and the other thing— and, and so then I was following the how do I make money model, how do I build a brand and business model. Um, and, and I think that— I think the disconnect comes often in the fact that Can I go a little bit deep?

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: So we exist and operate in two worlds, physical and non-physical. So physical world is brand, is business, is money, is car, is house, is stuff, is people, is conversations, is traffic lights, is planes, is, you know, is life. It's all the external. It's this table, it's that chair, it's the lights, it's the temperature, it's all that. But where we live, where we live is in our emotions and thoughts, right? So ideas, thinking, beliefs, expectation, faith, truth, values, alignment, all of that. And so I was very much living and, and focusing on all things external. How much, how big can my muscles be? How, how many fucking cars can I have? How many gyms? What do people think of me? What is my brand? What's my profile? Um, you know, what are people saying? Uh, what does this look like? Um, and, and, and that was because I was an insecure fuck who didn't deal with my stuff. And one of the challenges I think for men, for, for people in general, but more for men because I think women are more emotionally evolved, uh, in general with this kind of conversation and recognition and awareness and stepping up, is that I needed to get to a point where I went, all right, well, I'm good at, at playing this role, um, and building this. Yeah, I, I know I can go and build another business and brand, but it's not my thing. It's not my passion. I'm not bad at it, but I don't love it, you know. Um, and so I needed to go, well, when I step away from what people think I should do, or what is the standard, or what is the norm, and I, I stop conforming and I start to, um, you know, be still— what, what actually do I want me to look like and my life to look like and my situation? And what matters? Like, what are my values really? Like, are my values money and brand? Is that my values? Because that's what it looks like right now. If you followed me around in my 20s and early 30s, you'd go— and I wasn't a bad human, I was a decent dude— but like, you know, if, if most of your thinking is around your business, then your focus is only on your business, your energy is only on your business and brand, then you are only on your business and brand, right? Which means there's no spiritual development, there's no emotional development, there's no emotional maturity, there's no self-awareness, there's no situational awareness, there's very little empathy for others. They're very little patience and kindness because you're just this cyborg that's trying to do this thing. And so for me, where I literally, um, one day went, no, I don't want to do this, and it's not bad or terrible, it's just not my thing. And, and so part of, you know, part of my message when I'm working with people is trying to help people understand that success is totally personal. You know, like, some people, to sit in a studio like now and do this, a podcast, and talk into microphones would be terrifying. It's the opposite of success. But for us, who are all fucking curious dudes, and we're sitting and we like hanging out, and we like— like right now I'm having a good time. Why? Because I like you guys and I like this. I like to have these provocative and philosophical and thought-provoking conversations because sometimes it opens a door for us, and other times it opens a door for the listener to go, yeah, that's actually— because— and shut me up in one second, but I believe that the vast majority, majority of us, and me for half my life at least, we live unconsciously. We, we inhabit this cognitive, emotional, sociological, behavioral, um, operating system which is really just a version of yesterday. We do, you know, it— what you did yesterday, was it like awesome? Did it, you know, not really. Okay, but you're doing that again today, right? Oh yeah, and I did it last week, last month, last year. So by the time you are 35 years old, um, 95% of who you are cognitively and emotionally and behaviorally is pretty much set, right? And we have every day, give or take, 70,000 thoughts. And of those 70,000 thoughts, 90% of them are the same thoughts we had yesterday, right? Cheesecake and cheesecake, pretty much. Well, that's 92% of my—

Tommy: how do I get—

Josh: you're talking about the internal voice. And so if we just see it as an external voice being the loud stuff that where, you know, the world's trying to pull us, and the internal voice being maybe our own values, what we, but what we actually feel, there is an awareness in, or having a loud enough internal voice to recognise it. How do people who might not have the confidence to listen to, if that internal voice is quiet, is there a system to be able to actually turn down the external voice? Or I guess the other risk is that you can confuse the external and the internal voice. So, because the external voice is really loud and it's like, you know, look at this car, look at all this stuff, all of a sudden you think, oh, that is my internal voice. This is what I want. How do you identify when the external voice is actually tricking us into thinking it's our own thoughts?

Craig: So most things that come from fear or insecurity or ego will be focused on physical stuff, things. Um, now I'll come back to that in a moment, uh, but, but, and this will sound a bit deep and, you know, we might all hug it out after this, but I believe that all the good internal stuff comes from a platform of love, you know, and, and that doesn't necessarily mean huggy touchy-feely, but just love, just service, just generosity. I know the, the more I, the more I come from a place of love and service and, um, and, and of course there's got to be, you know, uh, parameters, I guess. Like, you can't just become a doormat. I'm still intelligent and I still have awareness about who might use or abuse me. But the, the better person I am. So I think the challenge is— and it's not to say it almost sounds here like we're anti-business or money, not at all. I get paid shitloads to do my corporate speaking and all of those things, and I don't mean that to sound silly, but I do. So do all high-level speakers get paid way too much money. But if NAB want to pay me that, or Telstra, or whoever, cool, okay, thanks. But again, For me, money's just a thing. It's a resource. And, um, and obviously if someone says, Craig, we'll pay you X or 3X, what's your choice? Fucking give me 3X, thanks. I'm not a dummy. But I don't confuse money or things or brand or external kind of stuff with who I am, right? So I think it's trying to manage your external world, like you guys right now building a business, building company, building an organization, brand credibility, and you want all of that, right? And that's all good and healthy. And then the next part of that is, in the middle of all of the stuff that you are not, which is everything external, to manage you so that you're a good dad, you're a good bloke, you're a good husband, you're a good son, you're a good human. Because when you live your values, there is way less anxiety and overthinking. There is way more calm, or as the Buddhists call it, equanimity, which is the calm in the chaos.

Josh: You know, TJ, we were talking all about values the other day, and it's like talking about values when you've just started a business. Yeah, I think that felt like a bit of a luxury. Like, it was like, this is getting onto a bit of a wank fest. Like, where—

Craig: and, and let's make money, we'll figure out the fucking values later.

Tommy: No, you— Josh was talking to a client this morning and said, we spent, we spent the first few days not looking at how we can make money for the business, but looking at what our values are for the business. And I thought that was great.

Josh: Yeah. And what What it actually— and it's a luxury to have that. But what it means is what having those values did was turned up our internal voice. It said, okay, because say within a business, if it's all about lead generation or bringing in, we're gonna have $40,000 a month of revenue, that's what we wanna bring in. You can make $40,000 a lot of different ways.. And so it was trying to say, okay, well, if we do the values first, if we know that we can make money 100 different ways, then we need some form of system of being able to say yes or no, because otherwise it's just going to be yes. And it's like, oh, we, we do wedding videos because that's, that's what people came to us and said. And so the, um, it's the hard bit is it is a, it is a luxury. And I feel for— I even know when I was younger, when the pressure really is on financially and you're in a corner and you feel like the only— the biggest problem is being able to make some money so you can do that thing. I think that's, that's where it's also really challenging.

Craig: It's real challenging at your stage of development with your company because all, you know, the 55-year-old over here, oh well, back in my day, you know, the philosophy of it all is it makes sense, but 'Yeah, that's good, Harps, but I've got $7 in the bank, you fuckwit, and I've got to feed my kids.' Yeah, you know, so I get that. And it's— but I think the thing is, when you go, what are our values? What are we about as two blokes? What are we about as a team? Um, you know, the people that work with you. What are we about culturally and in terms of values as an organization? Because people don't have a relationship with your company, they have a relationship with you. Because you're dealing with egos, attitudes, personalities, humans, right? Um, so a really practical example of this is, uh, 20 years ago I, I met a dude who sold me a car and he was the least salesy guy ever. He was just a funny bloke, good dude. Like, I don't know if he did, but he seemed not to care if he sold me a car or not.

Tommy: He's a unicorn because they don't exist.

Craig: Unicorn. Is an automotive unicorn, right?

Tommy: The car even blew rainbow-colored.

Craig: Ben is his name, right? I bought a car from him and he basically said to me, get the best deal you can get and then ring me up. And he goes, and if I can do better than that, we'll get it. If not, get it somewhere else. It's all good, doesn't matter. I'm like, really? He goes, yeah. And if I said I can get it there, he'd go, go there. Yeah, like my— oh, all right. So I bought this car from him, then I bought a car for my mum from him, then I bought another car from him. Um, by the way, people listening, sorry, I'm an idiot with cars.

Tommy: Yeah, he loves his toys.

Craig: But I've brought, um, purchased from this dude probably 12 cars from the one guy.

Josh: Was he the cheapest?

Craig: Yep. Yeah, and his customers— I bought a, um, this is hilarious, this is, this is how laid back this dude is.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: I bought a, um, I bought a Land Cruiser, brand new Land Cruiser from him. And I ring him up, he was based an hour away from me. I ring him up, I go, mate, I want this, what I want, I want a GXL, blah blah blah. And he goes, oh cool. Um, I go, and I didn't tell him any other, um, uh, quotes that I've been given. And I said, what can you do on that? And he goes, hang on, he goes, uh, he goes, let me ring you back. Rings me back and he goes, all right. I can do it for this. And he goes, I'll tell you right now, there's $600 in it for me. As in, that's what he'll make on a $70,000 or $80,000 car or whatever, right? And I believed him because it was about $7,000 cheaper than everybody else. And I go, cool, so what do I need to do? He goes, well, when do you want it? I go, whenever. He goes, all right. He goes, I'll ring you back tomorrow. Rings me tomorrow and he goes, uh, it'll be there, I don't know, whatever, 2 days later. So they send the car on a truck, a brand new $70,000, $80,000 car I can't remember. They bring the car over, I sign some stuff, I ring him and I go, mate, the car's here. I haven't given you any money, I haven't paid a deposit, I've got my car. He goes, oh yeah, no, that's all right. He goes, you're not going anywhere. I go, all right. I go, what do you want me to do? He goes, um, look mate, I'm with someone, I'll get back to you. I'm like, all right, thanks. Didn't hear from him. Didn't ring me for like 2 weeks. And I ring him, his name's Ben. I go, Benny boy, this car is great. He goes, oh mate, I'm glad, I'm glad. I like looking after you. I go, anything else, mate? He goes, something wrong? I go, do you want any money? He's like, didn't I charge you? I'm like, you're the worst salesman ever. Because he was so— I wanted that because I felt like whether or not— no, I felt like he gave a fuck and he wasn't. So when someone goes, oh, I just want to help you, I go, no, you don't, you want to sell a product. Yeah, so that's okay, you want to sell a product, but don't pretend you care about my welfare. But when you go to a company like with you guys who are emotionally intelligent, pretty aware, and you go, yeah, of course we're going to charge you, of course we're going to make some money, that's what we do, but we're also good humans and we want to build a relationship with you and we want you to be happy and we want you to love what you get then you'll be in the 5%. And with 95%, do not do that for real.

Josh: And so is there a risk in doing what Ben's doing and just being a bad business person? How do you, how do you balance?

Craig: Nah, he killed it.

Josh: Well, because yeah, it's, it's playing a different game. It's saying like, I am going to be giving you a great price, great service, and then it becomes a volume game. Because more rather than trying to squeeze every dollar out of every sale. It's saying, I'm going to be so good that everyone's going to come to me. And rather than doing 3 cars— I don't know how many fucking cars people sell— but rather than doing 3 cars a day, it's like he's doing 20.

Craig: But see, a big part of it is like, for me, when I say to people, if all you ever do is read my whiteboard messages and follow me and get some inspiration— and like, I get emails every day from people who go thank you so much, like, you helped me change my life. Now I don't take any credit because they did the work, but every day, multiple, like sometimes 10 emails a day from people who I'll never meet, they've never bought a book, but they just follow my stuff and use my stuff. Um, and because I, I never sell anything, the worst I'll do is once every 30 or 40 or 50 posts I might go, yeah, I've got a workshop coming up. 'If you want to come, cool. If you don't, cool. It's all good.' I hate selling shit, but I know that I've got enough momentum and enough people who kind of resonate with me that there'll be people there.

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: And I'd rather have 300 people there that really want to be there than 1,000 people that I've smashed over the head and twisted their arm. You know, I don't need it that much.

Tommy: The, the company that doesn't have written out values that they live by has a set of values based on their actions. Yes. So like a company I worked with once were like, their payment terms were 14 days from the day they get paid from the person that paid them, which for me is someone that I came to them, they're a middleman. Yeah, I see that as a reflection on their business. Yeah, which doesn't— they're not, they're not looking after me. Yeah, they're looking after them just in case the client doesn't pay that. So what happens to me if they don't get paid?

Craig: Yeah, of course.

Tommy: And so there's this— I feel like that speaks volumes of a value that they haven't even identified, or maybe they don't want to be the person that comes across.

Craig: But I think they don't think like you, they don't have that awareness. So I, irrespective of the, the product, I'm more inclined to just go with the people or the organisation that I like. Because you think about this, and I mean Seth talks about this, people buy largely on emotion. I mean, we, we buy shit we don't actually need all the time. Like, if we're talking about needs-based decision-making, 80% of the stuff I buy I don't need. I don't need to live or survive. I just buy shit because I have some money and fucking that's a pretty color, you know, or whatever it is. And so, you know, that we, we overrate ourselves in terms of we're not that intellectual or discerning when we buy. We're more emotional, we're more in the moment, and that's why we're so easily manipulated at times.

Josh: We do dumb shit. And the thing that the values do is it actually, it calls out that shit all the time. Like even just the time that, uh, the way that Tommy and I came up with the values is we, we thought about all the arguments that we've had, any disagreements, and then we'll test it against the values. And it's like, at the end of this, could we come up with a solution would we feel better about it through these, you know, value filters? So it's like the small things matter, one of our values. We can pull all these things. So if we don't get back to a client, if, if one of us drops a ball and doesn't get back to a client or doesn't follow up, we can then look at the value. Rather than if I did that Tommy blowing up and being like, mate, you don't give a fuck about any of this, all he has to say is small things matter, and it's something that we've both agreed upon. And then I can then realise that's something that Tommy cares about, and I can see how that is associated with this value. I hadn't maybe connected it. And so then we're slowly through this process of trial and error through the filter of values. Celebrate others is one of our values. So when we start to fall into the habit of being insecure creatives and being like, yeah, that fucking guy, did you see that bit of work? It's reframing it in being like, actually, we're doing the thing that we know inevitably happens when people do great work. And what if we were to reframe that? We're not only reframing how we see the world, but maybe we give ourselves a break too. So when we are feeling insecure about our work, we can be like, of course, give that celebration to us.

Tommy: Perfect.

Craig: And another thing is, wow, they did a great job. What can I learn?

Josh: Yeah, what can I learn?

Craig: Better question. And also, the moment that you start to focus on things that are external to you and out of your control, and then worse, obsess about that, focus on that, put your energy in that, then you're not putting your energy in your own stuff.

Josh: Exactly.

Craig: You know, and I think the challenge for you guys, as is for any, um, business partnership, is to— like, this would be my advice as you start this journey together, for what it's worth, and I've had numerous business partners.

Josh: They say what, the fastest ship to sink is a partnership?

Craig: Yeah, you genuinely— and this sounds like people will be, well, yeah, no shit, Craig, but trust me, people don't do this. You need to genuinely want each other to succeed. Each other. You need to genuinely and go, we're going to have days where I think you're a fuckstick. That's cool. Yeah, let's sort it out because you will 100% annoy each other. Because you're human, um, and you'll 100% get frustrated with each other, but you need to talk about it and come back to home base. And you can't— you know, there's no selfish person that's happy. And in business, you meet a lot of business partners who are— of course, Tommy's priority will always be Tommy, and your priority, Josh, will always be you. But that's not a bad thing. But that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of space for caring about each other and wanting each other to do well. Now, his priority being him is not selfish. That's just how we're wired. And his priority is him and his family. Yours is yours and your family. And that's, you know, but that again, that's not to the exclusion of loving each other, caring for each other, wanting each other to learn and grow and evolve and succeed. Um, and you know, like, I've coached people who in some areas of their development have surpassed me. I'm so fucking proud of them. Yeah, like they're doing shit I've never done. I'm like, oh, like talking to Seth Godin. Fuck, come on. Hashtag no resentment.

Josh: No, I think it makes so much sense, and that's what we're constantly thinking about, is shining the spotlight. Every single time we've gone from a selfish stage of like, am I getting enough time of talking here, or like, it is destructive. And as soon as we put the spotlight on each other it is all of a sudden, it, it shines back in a much nicer— it's a much nicer light coming back than trying to fucking put a torch onto yourself.

Craig: Yeah. And people see it, like, when you're trying to pump yourself up.

Josh: Stinky.

Craig: The funny thing is the irony of coming from a place of ego is that you create the opposite, yeah, um, result to what you want, which is you want people to be impressed. They're actually less impressed than You should have said nothing. They would have been more impressed.

Josh: Yeah. The Daily Talk Show. Craig Harper, you have your own podcast, The You Project. And I listen to— not good with names— that basketball, that real fucking—

Craig: Chris Anstey?

Josh: Yeah.

Craig: Real fucking tall basketballer.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Wow.

Tommy: Yeah.

Craig: You're like something of a sports guru. He's 7'1", I think, Chris.

Josh: That was a great episode. I was on the plane listening to that and just hearing because he went to the US and did that whole thing.

Tommy: NBA.

Josh: And so have a listen. If you don't just listen for Craig's wisdom, the people that you actually get onto and the conversations you're having are super unique. So it's definitely worth listening to that.

Tommy: I just looked at the time and I was annoyed because I wanted to keep going.

Josh: It's 47 minutes in. We've put time restrictions on this. And I know you'll be back. Yeah, exactly.

Craig: Super hungry. And I'm so bored with you too.

Josh: Friend of the show, Craig Harper. Hi@thedailytalkshow.com if you want to send us an email. We'll see you tomorrow, guys. See you guys.