Matt D'Avella On Building Audiences

Tommy: Wait a minute! Crossface!

Matt: The Daily Talk Show, a conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show, live from West Hollywood, Los Angeles.

Tommy: Yeah, with special guest Matt Diavella.

Josh: Hey guys, what's crackalackin'?

Matt: Excited to be here.

Josh: It's, uh, when Tommy brings out his little vlogging camera, I find it really hard not to just be super awkward.

Tommy: Well, we had this—

Matt: I actually have a problem with that too. I mean, people put the Instagram storey in your face.

Tommy: Oh yeah, from like 3 seconds into meeting.

Josh: Throwing shade again.

Matt: That wasn't an intentional reference.

Tommy: So you made the minimalism documentary, a bunch, amongst other things. I can't speak. We just did an hour of your podcast.

Matt: Yeah, um, but the only thing people know me for—

Tommy: we'll learn about you over this episode, but Josh and I were talking about vlogging and vloggers, and I guess I've become pretty comfortable holding a camera in a moment. But what we kind of realised is that while I might feel in the moment, it, it pulls people out of the moment. So it's this weird thing. Do you feel like if you were holding the camera you were in the moment or out of the moment?

Matt: Well, I think there's two different styles of filmmaking. The one style was how I got started out, which is you're behind the camera, you are not part of the story, you're just capturing the story. So that is much easier, but you also have to help people be comfortable on camera. You don't just start filming, mm-hmm, especially if you're shooting a doc. You wanna kind of build rapport and build a connection with somebody before you put a camera in their face. The vlogging style is totally different because you are immersing yourself into it. You're turning the camera on yourself and bringing other people with you. Which poses its own challenges. But I still think— and this is maybe an etiquette that a lot of people aren't picking up, at least younger filmmakers— is that you should let people know if you're just gonna come in filming, or if— especially if you have a big audience and you're reaching tens of thousands of people, that's, like, a lot to put on somebody in the moment without them preparing or really knowing what they're getting into.

Josh: So, do you think it's a rapport killer?

Matt: Is it a rapport killer?

Josh: We just want a headline.

Matt: Rapport killer, for sure. Yeah, I think it does. I think it hurts it a little bit because, I mean, that's why when I record any podcast, it's usually I'm meeting somebody for the first time. As cool as it would be to capture those moments of us meeting, uh, I just don't want to be like, hey, by the way, when you get here, I'm going to start filming you right away. And then when you sit down, we're never going to have a moment where we're off camera. Being able to chat casually.

Tommy: Yeah, I think I've put my friends and family painfully through the process of becoming okay with it because I think people know that I always have a camera on me nowadays. It's so, it's so hard because I've got so much out of approaching filmmaking from that angle to get comfortable and to get skilled in it. But yeah, it is at the detriment of— I haven't lost any friends, let's say that. But no, I, I am—

Josh: I haven't gained any either.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I've had the same. Hang on, when I picked up the camera, I've Yeah, exactly the same friends.

Matt: Is the—

Josh: do you feel the— that when you tell guests that they're going to be filmed, have you ever had a moment where they've said, I don't want to be doing video?

Matt: No, but I have had people show up and be, be like, oh, you're doing video? Yeah. And that's just one of the things where I am not the best at communicating.

Josh: You're doing a great job now. Like, the way you said that slowly, it's pretty good, right? Therapist said that I just need to talk Yeah, that's my punchy comedic voice.

Matt: Um, but I sometimes I, I don't fully communicate and let people know exactly what they're getting into. Like, uh, you can't curse on the— or you can curse on the show, and what you can and can't do. And is there anything you don't want to talk about on the podcast? There's certain things that I think are helpful for guests when you let them know. Letting them know they're going to be filmed and on camera. I've said a couple of times where like they're coming up and I'm like, oh yeah, like I think I mentioned by the way that, you know, I film all of this and they, they're like, oh, do I not look like I'm ready to be on camera? So I stopped doing that.

Tommy: Yeah, what do they say? Assume to make an ass out of you and me. When you break it down, it's like if you assume that they know, you end up looking bad, they look bad. And so yeah, I guess in these situations, over-communicating.

Josh: Do you have like an email template? Like not to template shit, but do you actually have sort of a few words that you just copy and paste so you know that you're communicating that stuff each time?

Matt: No, and I should. That's probably one of those things that would save me a lot of time. Um, but it kind of happens naturally in the ask, 'cause I get most of my guests through asking through email. So I usually have certain things where I will actually say in the first email, "It is filmed/recording at my apartment in West Hollywood." Which— but a lot of people forget that because it's in the first email that you ever exchange with somebody. So it sometimes goes to reiterate that to make sure that they're just aware of it and comfortable with it.

Josh: Do you feel like you're the podcast guy now? Because like when we first started chatting online, you didn't even have your podcast. So how, how has things changed since you've started?

Matt: Well, it's funny, when we first met in person, was January of 2016 or '17.

Tommy: Sekiro Remake.

Josh: Maybe '17?

Matt: '17. And yeah, right, because my documentary I think came out just the year prior, recently. And I was in this mode of starting to build something, to create original content. The podcast started 3 months after that. So... I haven't become known as the podcast guy. If anything, the YouTube guy. When I started out, I didn't intend to be a YouTuber, but then people started calling me a YouTuber. So I said, oh, okay, I guess that's what I am now.

Josh: You got a YouTube t-shirt.

Matt: I know, you cannot see, but I am wearing my YouTube t-shirt.

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Tommy: What about, and he's got his play button on the wall. What about being a filmmaker? Is there a point where you felt like, I can't say I'm a filmmaker? Well, no one really can unless they use film.— for the technical sense of the word.

Matt: That's changed a bit. You know what's funny though, is like my parents used to call me a videographer.

Josh: Oh yeah.

Tommy: Which is— You haven't spoken to them since?

Matt: That's the biggest slight jab. They didn't even realise it.

Josh: I mean, you were doing bat mitzvahs. You're like—

Matt: There was a transition point where I was doing actual film.

Josh: Could you call yourself a filmmaker and be doing bat mitzvahs? I wonder if those things—

Tommy: And you had to wear the yarmulke while you're filming.

Matt: Yeah. People call it—— it doesn't really matter. It's really what makes you sleep better at night. I think calling yourself— that's where the element of branding is sometimes helpful, where I think if you call yourself a filmmaker and you make films, you're maybe elevating it a little bit, where if you call it you're making videos, clients— it may not look as professional to clients. Yeah.

Josh: Well, I even noticed when I first started, uh, Full Stack Films, I was really into talking about filmmaking and storytelling, but, uh, it doesn't necessarily translate. Like, clients want a video, they don't want to film in a lot of ways. I wonder if that's going to change. But as soon as I changed it to video production, video production company, it started getting a different type of audience.

Matt: So how did the audience change when you did video production?

Josh: Well, I think that I actually gained an audience through search engines. Like, I think so. Yeah, like no one searched for like People who search for "Melbourne filmmakers" aren't the people who are spending corporate dollars to get videos made.

Matt: This is the difference between somebody who's an artist who gets too attached to, uh, maybe the name of something. It needs to sound artistic and symbolic. When if you labelled your video something like "How to wake up early," it's gonna get a lot more people's attention, because you're actually figuring out what people are searching for, what they would be looking for, as opposed to creating a really clever name. I think titles help people out.

Tommy: I know the videos I've made that have got media attention, I've noticed like people grab or go to somewhere to just pull a title because they need that, that then helps them write something. Like I've had, um, Entertainer written up about me. I had Fitness Guru.

Josh: It was a PT once.

Tommy: Yeah, and a crappy one at that. Yeah. And then lately I've managed to that always go for filmmaker. And sure enough, it's for myself, but it's also like, if there's one shot, what do I probably want? And that is for some of them to call me film— a filmmaker. Yeah.

Matt: And well, I guess the, the good thing about it is that you can create your own labels for yourself. And some people would be so averse to kind of doing it, just creating any labels. Like, oh, like, I, I don't like labels.

Josh: I don't like time. I don't believe in time. Then why are you gonna Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Some people would not like to even define things. Yeah. Uh, and that can be a challenging way to live. But to create labels for yourself, I think, is empowering in a lot of ways, because then you define the way people start talking about you. Sometimes you have no control over it. People might call you an entertainer, even though that's not what you do. People always call comedians "funnyman." "Funnyman," right?

Tommy: It's to bring them down a bit, 'cause the person's not funny that's writing it.

Josh: Actually, we noticed that it was really nice to be able to tell people that with our podcast that we're not comedians. Like, there's a lot of comedians who are doing podcasts, and we've had some comedians on the show recently in LA. And I think that the, the, they change, like, the comedians change when, when we explain, oh, like, we're not, we're not comedians. I don't know if, I guess it's just because they don't have to worry about us trying to be funny or competing.

Matt: Yeah, I think it maybe takes some of the pressure away too. There is that. There's a huge trend of comedians doing podcasts and it is— I mean, it's kind of difficult in terms of the saturation. Is that something that you guys worry about at all? It's like the fact that so many people are doing it and getting into the space.

Tommy: We've just said we're lucky we did the 5-day-a-week thing. Yeah, daily, because now we've got nearly 200 apps.

Josh: Yeah. If we hadn't done that, then we would— it would be a lot slower, I think.

Matt: It's kind of amazing. Just, I mean, the fact that you've done so many, because most people, they wouldn't even look and see, oh, you know, you do 5 episodes every week. They would just see the final— wow, these guys have been doing this for a very long time.

Josh: I've literally seen people who I've only just found their podcast and they're at, say, 280 episodes, and you look and they've been doing it for years. And so I definitely— I think that doing it daily is giving us— I don't think that we would be putting the energy that we were— that we're putting in the podcast now or have the excitement if we weren't doing it every single weekday. Yeah.

Tommy: How many videos are you making a week now, Matt?

Matt: I do a video every Monday for my YouTube channel, which is anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes. And they're seriously thoughtful videos that take a bit of time. Well, that— so that was a big learning lesson for me. But just to answer your question, like I do podcast Monday and I'm sorry, I do video on Monday. Podcast every Wednesday, and then I used to do an extra video on Fridays, but then it just became too much and not sustainable. Um, but I also do create secret videos for my Patreon, uh, patreon.com/mattyavellante. You guys do this on my podcast.

Josh: I like it. Secret videos sounds so sleazy, though.

Matt: It sounds like you're doing—

Tommy: Well, it is dirty.

Matt: It gets— It's very raw and unsexy. Censored. Um, but— So, what I learned early on was, like— I wasn't even a YouTube consumer. I didn't watch a lot of YouTube videos. And obviously I had heard of Casey Neistat, but that's like it. I couldn't have listed out, like I can now, 15 other YouTubers that are making content consistently. What were you consuming? Um, well, I would listen to podcasts, but I wouldn't watch them necessarily. What would you listen to? Uh— Listen to Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan, a lot of the main ones. Freakonomics. I like some of the edited podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell came out with an amazing podcast. Revisionist History. And— but what I did consume on YouTube was Joe Rogan clips. And then— so that's what I thought YouTube was. It was just a collection of clips. And if I put excerpts of my YouTube— sorry, my podcast on YouTube,— then I would get a lot of people finding me, and those videos would get hundreds of thousands of views, and my podcast would take off. And I did that for a year, where I put out maybe 2, sometimes 3 excerpts a week, which is a lot less work. You're just cutting it out, exporting it. It takes a little bit of work to colour and do all that stuff. But I just saw no traction at all. And then when I started to make these short-form videos about simplicity, minimalism, well-being and mindfulness, then they started to take off because it was just like you said, it was like more— I put a lot more thought, time, and energy into one video a week as opposed to just easily uploading 3 videos a week.

Josh: It was interesting. I noticed that my viewing habits with your content was when I saw the small clips and I saw the thumbnail of the, the person, I wouldn't click on those. When it was an idea that was— had a nice image, I'd click on that, or I would only click on the thumbnails of the people if it was the full length. Like if I saw it was like an hour long, I'm like, okay, I'll consume that whole bit because it's almost like you can end up doubling up on things, right? And so it's, it's that, it's that balance of what are people actually going to watch? Are they going to watch the full length or are they going to watch like the little snippets?

Matt: It is a balance of— I think there's two different kind of creators on YouTube, at least if you were going to put it into two boxes, I would do. The YouTuber who is— most of their views come from subscribers, people who subscribe and they want to see every video you release. Well, if you're doing the other model, which is just mass uploads every single day, you're putting up an excerpt or something really quick and easy, people aren't gonna— the quality isn't there, first of all, and then also it's just there's so much going out there that people can't even keep up with it. So I think that there is a detriment to actually putting out too much stuff.

Tommy: So you're you're annoying. You're a person that wasn't consuming YouTube and now has over 200,000 subs. Yeah. And there's people out there going, fuck, I just want to be a YouTuber and I've got no subs. Like, what do you think the— breaking it down now, like you said, there's a little strategy around what you did, but do you think there's something in it that you weren't a big consumer and you kind of didn't— you weren't sort of jaded or had some thoughts about how it's working for someone else?

Matt: It probably helped because I think what helps is doing something different. And to do something different requires you to be able to, to not be trapped in the bubble because it's very easy to do the daily vlog, you know, and just do that every single day. And in a lot of ways, you're just kind of mimicking what other people are doing. But then to be able to tell a storey in a different way, a lot of times it just comes through in personality. So that might not matter what the medium is or how you're telling a story, because your personality is going to be different. And for me, it was finding a topic that people were interested in and being very focused and specific about that. So the creativity type stuff didn't really do that well in the beginning, but then when I started to talk about minimalism and simplicity, it started to resonate more. And then what you have to do is just react to how people are reacting to your videos. So I saw, I put out my minimalist apartment and it was just an apartment tour showing how I live as a minimalist, but really just showing how it's, it might be just like anybody else's apartment, but with just a little bit less stuff. I added some humour to the video. It wasn't dull and dry. And I think sometimes with minimalism content online, people just take themselves and self-development in general. Yeah. Everything is so serious. Everything. It's like, and that's not how I wanted my content to show up. I wanted to actually make something that had my personality in it so then my friends couldn't make fun of me. Because if I pretended to be, uh, you know, Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or somebody that I'm not, people just make fun of me and be like, dude, what are you doing? Like, why are you making that voice?

Josh: I think that's like a really good point. I know, uh, Hamish Blake talks about it with, uh, Andy Lee with Hamish and Andy where Andy went to a school that, like, all-boys school, and his benchmark was avoiding to be made fun of. And so, like, there, that's the filter in which they go through a lot of their, their content, which is probably— it means that you're really tapped into not taking yourself too seriously.

Matt: You have to. I think that's one of the biggest things I learned early on, just as a person in the world, was to be self-deprecating, because I Oftentimes when you're a teenager, you, you take yourself way too seriously, and if somebody makes fun of you, it just crushes your ego. But then I like— you make fun of yourself one time and people laugh, and it maybe kind of hurts a little bit more than it should because it's the first time. You're like, oh, people are making fun, laughing at me, but it's at my own expense. So there's a control in that, and I think that learning that, I think people would be so much happier if they just weren't so serious all the time.

Tommy: When do you think you should double down on talking about your success?

Matt: Uh, right now. Right now?

Tommy: Yeah, you're on a podcast.

Matt: No, but like, what do you mean though?

Tommy: So I think my observation of Americans are that they celebrate their success, and I have seen Australians, we feel— I can't talk for all of Australia, but my observation is that, like you said, be self-deprecating. You don't need to go out there yelling from the rooftops, but when do you feel like you should Do you even think about, are you okay with talking about the success you've had or do you steer away from it as a person? Is that naturally you?

Matt: Yeah, it's kind of like the art of the humble brag. Yeah, yeah. I think sometimes it's good to soften it with a joke. Like, "No, no, but seriously, like actually this is how it happened." 'Cause I think it is, it's helpful for people to learn from the mistakes that you've made. And I think luckily that is easier to talk about because it's like, well, I tried this, this and this, it didn't work, but then this did work. And I think that's a humble way to talk about success. Uh, you know, I, I just wouldn't want to be the kind of person that nonstop talks about my own success or brags too much. There is an element of, of making noise that is helpful in any field. Like say if you're working a 9-to-5 job and you want to get— you have done well on a project, but you're not getting recognition that maybe you deserve. I think it does help to make a little bit of noise and let people know, let your boss know what you're working on. Uh, there was, I think it was in a Malcolm Gladwell book, but they put out a, he, he talked about the storey where they put out a dishwasher and it was just no hum, no sound. It was super quiet. And people had this installed in their house and their apartments and they thought it was broken because it was so quiet. Yeah. So they, the manufacturer ended up adding a light hum to it. To let people know that it was working. And I think sometimes that's what we have to do in our own work. Just let people know a little bit, but also don't be a dick about it.

Josh: It's like toothpaste, like the foaming— the foaming agent is like designed because it's like, it feels like it apparently doesn't really do much for cleaning your teeth.

Matt: The tingle as well. Yeah, the mint tingle, because it gives you like that trigger at the end. And I think that was the example with Febreze. They were trying to figure out how to sell Febreze and people that live in smelly houses don't know it. Yeah. They're amongst— I was about to tell you, Matt. No, your house smells amazing. Thank you. I got the candle here from Australia. Yeah, it's great. Um, but they don't know it, so they're not as incentivized to actually use the spray. Yeah. But then they started to market it as after you clean your house, then you do that as, like, a nice finishing touch. It's almost like a reward for you. And... Yeah, that's the end of that sentence. It's the cry for breeze.

Josh: You know, you clearly talk very well. You did— Did you give stand-up comedy a go?

Matt: Yeah, I did, actually. I did stand-up for about 8 months or so.

Josh: Fuck, that's a decent chunk.

Tommy: How many gigs in 8 months?

Matt: Uh, I couldn't tell you, but I did a lot of open mic— I mean, it was all open mic nights. I never got paid to do it, But one of my buddies, Nate Giola, who— He actually went on to do stand-up comedy in Vietnam and Cambodia. There's a big expat community there. And he got me to do it, 'cause I had been writing jokes for a year. And it was just a dream, a crazy idea that I always wanted to do stand-up, at least just get on stage once. But I never thought I'd do it. And I met him in a comedy workshop class in college. And he's like, yeah, I just did stand-up for the first time like 3 weeks ago. You should totally do it. So I was like, all right, I got all these jokes. And he just convinced me to go and do it. And it was brutal. Anybody who's ever done stand-up will tell you that the first time— very rare, unless you're Dave Chappelle— the first time you get on stage, it's just awful. But there's kind of a thrill to actually doing it. And then I just pretty consistently, you know, every week or two, I would get up and going to Center City Philadelphia, tell jokes to drunk people at a bar. And how it works. And then getting a little bit of success with that too, and seeing— and also it did teach me about not expecting anything from an audience, because Thursday night I would do stand-up and I would just kill it. I remember one time I would do like these like one-liners, and it was kind of just set up, punchline, set up, punchline, kind of like Demetri Martin. 'Cause I would play guitar as well. Oh, really? Yeah, but then there was this one guy— The host of the show was like, "I'm sorry, but there was a dude at the back of the room that almost died from laughing so hard." And that felt great. And then on Friday, I did the same exact jokes to a crowd that I thought would've been better, 'cause they were young and college-aged, and it was crickets.

Tommy: Oh, no.

Matt: It was the worst I'd ever bombed.

Josh: And he was like, "There was nearly a guy dying from silence." Yeah.

Matt: I was like, "You guys don't know me!" Uh, but it was a learning lesson to say that, uh, you know, you can't— "It's them, not me." Fuck 'em. "It's them, not me." You can't imagine. Some people just aren't into it. Some people just don't think it's funny. Uh, and it's not your job to judge an audience based on how they react.

Josh: Was there a difference in what you did, do you think, on those two nights?

Matt: I wanna say it was close to identical. Yeah. And I think other comedians will tell you that. It's just— Whatever it is. It's a mysterious aspect to it. It could be the age of the crowd. It could be the night. It could be, you know, just the people who led up to them, up to you performing, could've been really bad and didn't warm up the crowd enough. Uh, a lot of things would go into it.

Tommy: When was your last gig? Oh...

Matt: I don't know. I mean, it was... I can't even remember the specific gig that I did.

Josh: What was the specific moment of being like, "I'm not fucking doing this again"?

Matt: It was actually kinda hard. It was a really tough decision, I loved comedy, and that was, was really what got me into film originally. But I was doing film and comedy at the same time, and I didn't have one focus where I was kind of splitting my time between the two of them. And I felt like I had to commit because my mind was always running, thinking of jokes and trying to write jokes and invest my energy into how can I grow my comedy. You know, career. But then I was starting to make money as a freelance filmmaker, being in debt $100,000 in student loans, and I was like, maybe I should just— you know, I love— I have a passion for filmmaking, and I'm also making money. Why don't I just put all my energy into that?

Josh: So that's what I did. Yeah. Being in LA, does it make you see the comedy scene and think maybe I'll have another crack?

Matt: Well, no. I mean, it actually— because I have some friends who I made a lot of great friends who still do comedy to this day from back in the day, some of them successful, some of them still working to get open mic nights. And it's like, it's a grind. You have to do comedy 5, 6 nights a week, and it takes a lot because there's so many people doing it that I think there's other avenues to getting to that place where even now in my YouTube videos, I've turned it a lot of it into just joke writing. Yeah. In my videos, I'm like, "All right, I'm gonna do a video about minimalism and how it influences my workout routine. I cannot take myself seriously in this video. How many jokes can I just throw into this?" And actually, it's a lot easier to get away with a joke on YouTube, 'cause you don't have to deliver in front of a crowd. You can pace it. You can figure out whether it's actually gonna work or not. And sometimes just being a little bit odd and silly works on YouTube, when if you did it in front of a crowd, they would be like, "This guy's a loser." Weird unit.

Tommy: Um, 'cause I— I look at— I'm in the filmmaking industry. I look at musicians and I think, oh, look at that, that would be such a slog. Do you think it's just because I love filmmaking enough that it is— it's something that I can— I'm— it is a competitive industry, and so it's like I'm amongst it, so I can— and I love it enough that I can deal with that competitive nature of it, and I don't love music enough, and that's why I'm not in it? For you, like comedy, looking at that Do you think it's because you didn't love it enough and you liked filmmaking more that you sucked at it?

Matt: Some industries and jobs are easier to get into. And I think that there are many, many— like, I couldn't even imagine how many more full-time freelance filmmakers and photographers there are over full-time freelance comedians. Yeah. Like, it must be, you know— 1,000 to 1. It's gotta be crazy. So, you know, you have a choice, too, and you could— I fully support people. If you wanna just go after the dream and wholeheartedly put everything you have into it, go for it. But know that, uh, you could be happy— This is one of those hard things, where I'm like, "Don't follow your dreams." But there are some more practical ways to do it, and then you could always do comedy down the road. You could always do these things in other ways, where Maybe it's not pursuing acting. Maybe it's pursuing directing. And then when you become a successful director, then you could then parlay that into directing films that maybe you yourself act in.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, you're living the modern filmmaking dream by being one of the few people who have been able to sell something to Netflix.

Matt: What was that experience like? Um, it— it— that wasn't the goal in the beginning. The goal was just to make a documentary, you know what I mean? I think that is a lot— a dream for a lot of people.

Josh: Yeah, but I think that maybe there's— I actually think that whilst that's the case, the conversation, unfortunately, I think there's more people who are like, how do I get something on Netflix, than how do I make a doco.

Matt: Yeah, isn't that crazy? I mean, I think that's the same thing as people on YouTube who say, how do I get 100,000 subscribers? Yeah, versus how do I make amazing films? And different mentalities. I mean, I think probably if you look at how you guys started and how I started, it wasn't as much based upon what other people thought of it. Yeah, I was making— I made VHS tape home movies, like thrasher thriller movies with my brothers and sisters, and there was no audience. There was no, ooh, then I could get a certain amount of subscribers on YouTube. It was just— it was so fun just to tell a storey and to be able to take these two frames that were shot, you know, two hours apart from each other and then stitch them together. And then there's a storey there and it actually, uh, it starts to make sense and then actually gets a reaction out of your family and friends when they watch it. They laugh. Yeah. So I think that's the thing to focus on is like, first try to do it with intentions of just maybe telling a storey that you're passionate about and you really care about. And then once you make the thing, whether it's a short film or a feature, then I think it's definitely time to think about, all right, how can we actually sell this? But it has to be great first.

Josh: Are people having pipe dreams about this sort of thing? Like the conversations, because you have done it, there are a lot of people seeking that. And what have they got wrong in the conversations that you've had with them?

Matt: Well, I would say that if somebody wants to have a successful film, and I would say successful film is something that makes you money back, that like you could actually turn into a career. So my expectations were, or at least my hopes and dreams of making Minimalism was that we'd make our money back that we put into it, which isn't the highest bar, but for my first film I was totally fine with it. I was like, well, it'd be really cool if we can get the word out there and this, you know, people could get some value from the film. And if I made the 10 grand I put into it back, I'd be thrilled. I'd be stoked. But then after we made it, I was like, oh no, I like doing that. I want to keep doing it. So I need to make more than just my money back, you know what I mean? If I wanted it to be a job, I need to actually make a living doing it. So it— the advice that I would give is find a partner or two. And you guys have talked about this too, how like you wouldn't have been able to do the podcast without each other. Yeah, because it helps to motivate you. That's one thing that helps, having a partner. The one is if the partner also has an audience. So, we're fucked.

Josh: Yeah, exactly. Who's bringing the audience?

Tommy: This is why we've got you here, Matt. We've seen you 200,000+. Yeah.

Matt: So, it's, uh, you have to— If you find a partner that you can work with like that, then they have their audience. You're also bringing your filmmaking expertise, and then the two together can actually create something that doesn't need Netflix. And that's something that we knew from the beginning, is that, well, No matter what, we could release this to your audience and 5,000 people might see, 1,000 people might buy it. And that was enough for us. It gave us a lot of confidence going into it that we're not actually just spinning our wheels.

Tommy: Has it changed when it's got on Netflix? Have you had those thoughts and had to remind yourself that, okay, maybe it's not about the Netflix thing? Have you been— is there a trap that you've fallen into?

Matt: No, I, I could see that, and But I mean, like I said, I'm kinda self-deprecating as it is, and maybe I don't have enough confidence. But I'm like, "Yeah, there's no way I'm gonna get back on Netflix." Or like—

Josh: Maybe go on Crackle? What was the one— Yeah, maybe I'll get Crackle. Comedians in Cars had, and then all of a sudden that's gone from there. And they fucking— Sony Crackle emails me, like, every second day from signing up once to watch Comedians in Cars. They're still doing it.

Matt: They're still trying to make it work. It's not gonna be a thing.

Josh: It's not gonna be a thing. They could do something, Crackle, though. Yeah.

Matt: Uh, you know, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't really play in my mind. Actually, that was one of the reasons why I decided to go on YouTube, start a podcast, create my own audience, because it was to me self-reliance. It was, I don't need Netflix, I don't need somebody else's audience. I could, if I have an idea for something, I could make a movie and I could put it out there. And even if in the beginning it's small, it's something that I could build upon. And it would be amazing to get to the point where you wouldn't even need a Netflix. You could just make something yourself and put it out there.

Tommy: Do you think modern-day filmmakers need to step out from behind the camera and into— in front of the camera to, you know, elevate their brand, elevate their skills, like what you've done?

Matt: I guess it like depends on what kind of goals that they would have and what they want to get out of it. Uh, I think just to make it in this landscape, to make it, it doesn't hurt, but not everybody's made for that. So there are a lot of people that I think they could provide just as much value just staying behind the camera. Not everybody looks like they should be on camera too. Um, but it, it, I think it just figures out what you have to figure out what you like doing. If you enjoy being in front of the camera, and sometimes it takes a while to actually get comfortable in front of it and put in the time to see, uh, then I think that's probably something that would help you down the road. But if every time you turn the camera on yourself, it's a grind and you hate it and like, I mean, I have those moments, but all in all, I'm like, it's worth it for me to put in the work. Then, you know, it may or may not be for you.

Josh: We've had friends who have had videos that they've made go viral and they've all of a sudden, sudden gained an audience specifically based on that style of video that they've done. And they've sort of been locked in. What's been the learnings for you having done minimalism and gaining a sort of audience? What have you had to think about in regards to identity and personal brand?

Matt: Yeah, well, I know that whenever I make a video on my YouTube channel about minimalism, if minimalism is in the title, it's about simplicity. It's going to do 4 times better than anything else I put out. That's something that I know just from releasing a certain amount of videos. But then it also It doesn't mean that I can't talk about other stuff. It means I have to be creative in transitioning to that kind of content. And I think what I want people to eventually just come for me, for me, because I add humour in my videos or because the way I tell storeys or the topics I cover, they might come to me for a bunch of different reasons. But then even this past week, I made a video about how I make my videos., which I was like, well, this is probably not gonna do as well. But I did see in some of the comments people being like, hey, I do not care about filmmaking at all, but I found this really interesting. Or this was like, I thought this video was really funny or entertaining. And I think that's what I try to get through. But a lot of people get known for one thing. Like Gary Vee started out as the wine guy. Yeah. And then now he's an entrepreneur. The Rock, you guys know I love The Rock. Yeah. He started out WWE. And now he's a huge movie star. And the points of transition, a lot of people are gonna, like, say, "That's not gonna work out. Like, what are they doing? Like, they should stay in their own lane." And then you can make it work. It's not guaranteed. Is there a friction to it?

Josh: How do you, like, push against what the audience are trying to— Or if you know that you're gonna get more views doing the minimalism stuff, I'm guessing it can be sometimes hard to be like, "If I'm gonna put in 10 hours," and I know that I'm going to get more views if I do minimalism content, I guess it can be pretty sort of enticing just to do minimalism stuff.

Matt: Yeah, I think it would, it would get a little bit boring.

Josh: Um, but for you or for the audience?

Matt: For me, if all I did was minimalism content. But also it does take an element of just getting creative with it, because maybe it's that I just haven't really— there's probably 100 other minimalism-related videos lightly based around that topic that I could just have so much fun with and explore. So I don't think, like we were talking about on my podcast about Seth Godin, it's like, does he run out of ideas to talk about? Like, no, he's always gonna have ideas.

Tommy: He's fucking Seth Godin. Seth Godin, dude.

Matt: He's never gonna run out of ideas. But, and that's the same thing with even a topic as narrow as that. That said, I find it interesting to talk about other aspects that are lightly related. So I may— I've got a video in the works about waking up early. Like, what are the certain steps that help me to wake up early every single day?

Josh: It's fucking alarm clock, isn't it? It's an alarm clock.

Matt: It's step 1, alarm clock. Step 2, wake the fuck up.

Tommy: That was a Jocko Willink podcast. Yeah.

Matt: Take a photo of your sweat on the ground. Jocko Willink. Uh, But so, like, you know, things like that that are related to well-being. And there's so many other things that I would be interested in that I could cover there. And I think what also helped me too was having the podcast early on, which is really just about creativity, sometimes about simplicity as it applies to creativity. But that has been an outlet for me to talk about whatever I wanna talk about. Mm.

Tommy: It's a combination of all the things you're doing that I guess has got you to where you are. Is there one that is the— the main love or the main passion?

Matt: I think it always comes back to filmmaking. Like, I really do enjoy the process. I— even through Minimalism and everything I've done, it's— I've had hands on everything from filming it, editing it, colour grading it, all that stuff. Sometimes I'll get help, like with Minimalism, my buddy coloured it. But I love editing, and I love the storytelling and the challenges that come from being in an edit. And I find it hard for me to detach myself from that. So imagine growing to a point where you could hire somebody to edit, shoot and edit all your videos. There is an element to the blogger or the writer that has a website and gets popular for their own writing, and then they get so big that they just start hiring people to write articles for them and for their site. It's like there's a disconnect there where I'm like, Filmmaking is an art form, and it's— your voice comes through in how you tell those stories. And I don't think as many people would follow Casey Neistat if he had somebody following him around with a camera shooting and editing everything.

Josh: Do you think you've created a beast that you can't control and that you have to constantly be giving content and new videos to?

Matt: Yes, I think that's one of the unexpected things that happens when you start creating original content, because I originally did it because I thought I'd have more freedom, you know what I mean? Where when I was doing client work, uh, I actually had way more time in the day. Well, it's almost—

Josh: I think what happens is that people leave their 9-to-5 job because they don't want a boss, then they get clients and realise that they've got a fucking hundred bosses. And now you've got the interesting perspective that Tommy and I don't necessarily have yet, which is What is that next stage to creating original content? Is it like having 10,000 bosses or 200,000 bosses?

Tommy: Josh is a Patreon subscriber. He's your boss.

Josh: Yeah, I'm a shareholder. I love what you've done with the blog.

Matt: I did call you guys out in my recent AMA, the end of the recent AMA podcast. I told people to go cheque out your podcast.

Josh: Thank you. If you're listening.

Matt: Yeah, it was actually going to be a test to you because I said in the podcast, I was like, Josh, if you're listening to this, like, we'll find out.—

Tommy: but, um, I'm the only one that looks like a tight-ass for not supporting Matt now.

Matt: Yeah, you son of a bitch. I'm a patron of myself. Yeah, dude, how many people do you actually support on Patreon?

Josh: Yourself, personally? I don't support anybody.

Matt: But it's the same thing as, like, I don't watch many documentaries, you know? I don't listen to many podcasts anymore 'cause I'm creating a lot.

Josh: 'Cause funnily enough, like, I think that I've, um— as a supporter of whatever it is that's happening right now, I don't completely understand how this monetization thing's gonna work for a lot of people. Especially smaller podcasters. Oh yeah, but people who are doing Patreon, like, I've almost— I got rid of a bunch of subscriptions that were costing me a bunch of money and said, okay, I've got $100 a month and I'm going to use this as like my fund where I'm just going to support a bunch of people who are doing cool shit, as an idea of like, we'll see what happens, see where this goes. It's kind of amazing.

Matt: And I mean, it's— I think it's becoming more and more acceptable. I mean, some people be like, well, I have the videos, if you wanna pay for the top tier, it's $12 a month. And a lot of people are like, "Matt, that's what I pay for Netflix. Why would I pay you $12 a month for a couple videos every month when I have all this content on Netflix?" And I'm like, "I don't have an answer for that." "Because you really care about me and you like the fact that I don't advertise." Do people actually say that?

Josh: Have people said that to you?

Matt: Yeah, in the comments. People are like, "It just doesn't make sense. Why would I ever..." pay for that. Um, but I get it. It makes sense. But that's actually not what we're comparing.

Josh: Yeah. What's the mindset shift then that people have to— like, who is paying the— like, what are they getting out of it? Or how are they viewing life that maybe the person who thinks that it's a far stretch—

Matt: I think it does go to, like, the 1,000 true fans, is that those are the people that really care about you and wanna support your work. And I think many of them have more flexible incomes. They're making a little bit more money Uh, they actually do little exit interviews on Patreon, so you can see why people are leaving, which I just found out about yesterday. And I was really nervous when I was going in there.

Josh: How many people did you have? Because I'm guessing when you start something like Patreon at the very beginning, you're going to end up with a higher drop-off rate because people are entering it probably to see whether it's worth it, and then they do it for the first month and they drop off.

Matt: Yeah, but I think then you have a balance of two people that just forget. Yeah, like, I mean, I mean, how many things have you signed up for that you forget?

Josh: I literally found out, uh, this is hilarious, Like a week ago, Bri was looking at our bank statements. It turns out that I had Netflix, the American Netflix, since 2011. And the Australian. But there was a point where the VPN stopped working. Like you couldn't use the VPN anymore when it came to Australia, but I'd still been paying. So, I've spent about, I think, $400 on a Netflix login that we haven't accessed. Wow. So, I don't know if we're going to be able to get that back.

Tommy: Well, if you said that, Netflix have 1% or 3% of people doing that, they're making a lot of money.

Matt: Well, it's the whole gym membership model. Yeah, how many people are just making a killing owning gyms when only 40% of people actually show up?

Tommy: All members went at once, it'd be chaotic.

Josh: Well, that's what I was saying to Tommy, I reckon like I've actually funded a bunch of original Netflix series through my subscription I didn't even know about. I'm sure that's the same with gym. I'm sure I've paid a fair few leases at gyms.

Matt: Yeah, I, uh, so I was going through those, the exit interviews. I think I've had— I don't have to count, but it might be 30 people. Yeah, that signed up, maybe 40, I don't know, that have signed up and exited out. Probably would get at least 15 every month, and a large majority of them, almost every single one, would just say financially, you know, they did it for financial reasons because they were trying to, to save money. Then there was maybe 3 out of the group that was like, "Not getting value." "Content not what expected." "Oh, really?" "Content creator did not deliver." And I wanted to sit that person down and say, "Listen, motherfucker." You were like—

Josh: I think I was telling Tommy before we got here, I think you are doing Patreon the best in the sense of it's not like you're— Some people were doing it where they were doing video content and audio, and then they took away something from their audience and said, you can only access video if you support me on Patreon, which what I like about what you've done is you've actually, you're using a new muscle with the, the vlogging type of stuff, and I actually see like real value in seeing that, uh, behind the scenes type of content.

Matt: Yeah, so it was like I had never done any vlogging really. Most of my videos would be more doc style or me sitting down talking to the camera, but not where you're holding the camera and maybe showing like a vacation type vlog or anything that you would Being obnoxious. He is so obnoxious, and Natalie loves it. Uh, but I— So, it was— For me, I knew I wasn't good enough yet, or I never even wanted to do that as part of my actual YouTube channel.

Josh: Did you think it was a bit too low status in regards to what you'd—? 'Cause I feel like that sometimes. I'm like, "I've done all of this beautiful shit where I've spent a lot of time," like— And the idea of then having, like, an RX100 point-and-shoot camera and using that feels like— I've taken a bit of a step back.

Matt: Yeah, but I think you can actually do it in a way that's beautiful. And I have learned a lot just about vlogging and turning the camera on myself about how to make it look better. And I think I still want to actually employ my own, my similar style of filmmaking. So integrating voiceovers, a nice colour grade, getting actual B-roll instead of just having everything be talking head and not using a cheap camera to use the Sony A7R II. So the quality is still there. And I mean, I've learned a lot just about filmmaking in general from it. And I feel like they're getting to the point where they're good enough where I could put them on my YouTube channel, which makes me be like, ah, damn, like, that could be easy content. Yeah. But, but then I see the value. Somebody actually asked me that on Patreon. They said, do you feel like an extra hurdle or challenge in knowing that if you put this video on your YouTube channel, it may get 50,000 views but when you put it on Patreon, you get 50 views. And I was like, you guys paid my bills last month, so I can make videos for you all day long. And I think that is it. It's the mindset of— you even said this with like the Seth Godin model, where it's like, what's the smallest audience that you could have that can— you could make a living from? And that's what Patreon is really allowing you to do if you're thoughtful and you make really high-quality content for it. But it just requires you to make more stuff.

Tommy: When I started my video stuff, I was like, I'll get everything— Twitter, um, YouTube, Vimeo, Facebook page, you know, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. Yeah.

Josh: And Tommy's actually quite big on LinkedIn.

Matt: Yeah, you've mentioned it before and I was like, I don't even have a LinkedIn. Yeah.

Tommy: And I've looked, you don't have a Facebook page?

Matt: Like, yeah, I just recently actually— I think I made my personal one private and then my—

Tommy: deleted my public one recently. Yeah. And so Have you thought, like, specific to a platform? Is that your whole intention? I'm being very focused on this.

Matt: It happened. I mean, the one thing is, should I get rid of my LinkedIn is what I'm saying. I think so. I mean, no, it really depends on— it goes back to the reactive thing and reacting to what's working and what's not. And nobody liked anything on Facebook, and if I'm getting 0.001% of interactions on Facebook. I think it actually hurts and it just looks bad. 'Cause if I'm reaching out to a big guest and like the first thing they happen to find is my Facebook page. Yeah. And they're like, oh, only 1,000 people follow him. Like, and nobody's commenting or interacting with him. It may look bad. It's also a mental strain. It's almost like a little bit of a weight where you know it's there. And even if you don't spend a whole lot of time posting to it or interacting on it, it is gonna take up a certain amount. Way too much time for what you're getting out of it. So I've tried to be very specific of most of my energy will go into YouTube and podcast, and then if I don't have those first set off, then I can't do newsletter, Instagram, Twitter.

Josh: What have you learned from doing, uh, the podcast that you've been able to bring across to video, video making, filmmaking? I think it's videographer.

Matt: Videographer. Yeah, yeah, as my mom would say. Uh, doing long-form content helps to break down the walls and the persona that people sometimes try to put on camera. So you try to be the, the person— hey everybody! My brother always makes fun of me because I was always like, I could do that like on camera, be like, hey guys, what's going on? Welcome back to my YouTube channel! He's like, so annoying, Matt. But you start to lose lose that. You lose this personality and, uh, trying to look good for people, which it just never looks good. It never feels authentic. And people react to you being yourself and you being comfortable. So I think when you do our 2-hour podcasts and you do over 80 of them, it starts to allow you just to be more comfortable on camera.

Tommy: I like that, meeting you for not— and not knowing you and meeting you in person you're very similar, consistent, which is— it's different being like an actor. I think about, yeah, meeting Tom Cruise. Who the hell is that guy? He plays so many different people. I think let's bring The Rock up. The Rock seems like he will be— he seems like he's nailed the consistency across everything he does. You could probably tell who— like, The Rock, you are like The Rock.

Josh: Yeah, I like The Rock.

Matt: Do you guys think of it? You are like The Rock. Oh, I'm like The Rock?

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, consistent. Uh, you know what you're gonna get? Biceps.

Matt: Can you guys put that in writing? Okay, that's gonna be my, uh, I'm gonna have to use that when I get him on the podcast.

Tommy: Yeah, let's talk about that. You have a photo of The Rock on the wall in this room. Yeah, appreciate it. He's got his fanny pack on. Yeah, otherwise known as a bum bag in Australia. It's a leather bum bag.

Matt: Sorry, I thought you just got it a pom bag. Pom bag. Yeah, fanny pack. Fanny pack, leather fanny pack. He's got a turtleneck and then a gold chain. It's amazing. Actually, he tweeted at me twice. Yeah, that's cool. And you lost your mind. Oh, I lost it. So I've been— for the past 2 years I've been trying to get him on the podcast, uh, and it started out— it was, it was way funnier when nobody listened to the podcast because nobody listens to it now. I mean, it's still laughable that he would come on the show just because I recorded out of my dining room. Why would The Rock ever wanna come on my podcast? But I just wanted to have a crazy stretch goal of— and something that people could follow along with, and like, it'd be a recurring theme on the show. Uh, just what are the creative ways that I could come up with to potentially get The Rock's attention?

Tommy: People are supportive. Yeah. I've noticed.

Matt: Yeah, no, it's actually one of the most common things that people will comment in a podcast or on Twitter. I have a— big tweet button on— there's a website, it's called gettherockonmatts.com, as well as a hashtag, #GetTheRockOnMattsPodcast. But there's a big tweet button on the site, so people will go there and it's almost like interactive. You can click on it, and every time you click on it, it creates a new tweet for The Rock. That's great.

Josh: And so your fiancée Natalie is Australian. What have you, what have you learned about Australians?

Matt: Uh, that's a great question. I didn't know— I had met one Australian before Natalie. Really? And now I know way too many. I feel like, well, you guys, just like, even if you're in America, you just find each other, and there's like these little alcoves and clusters. We went to London. I forget where we were staying, but it was just everybody in the block was Australian. If you want good coffee, you just hang around an Australian. This is a point of contention between Natalie and myself. 'Cause she will often say, "I mean, Americans, they don't know coffee. They're terrible with coffee." But my experience has been the opposite, at least lately, in the past 5 years. I mean, especially if you're living in LA or New York, there's just a great local indie coffee shop and roaster around every corner. But half of the baristas are fucking Australian.

Josh: Haven't you worked that out?

Matt: Some— yeah, no, it's heavily leaning.

Josh: PCP. You've got the— yeah, PCP, is it? The coffee shop, Australian. Yep, that one's nearby. Coffee Coffee. Coffee Coffee. Are they Australian? The barista was.

Matt: Yeah, so it does lean— there's something there, but I would say like definitely Middle America is Dunkin'. America runs on Dunkin'.

Tommy: I think we're adopting some of the American coffee culture in, in terms of like that really cheap, quick shit. I haven't drank— I haven't had a latte since being here. Like a strong latte is what I'll get at home because I'm going straight for that, that just big vat of coffee that I can just drink lots of.

Matt: It's an interesting point though, because I think this is where I think that we do coffee a little bit differently. In Australia, I don't know if they have yet, but they haven't adopted the pour-over method, like the drip coffee where it's like artisan drip coffee. But you guys do have the lattes and the cappuccinos.

Josh: I think we're known for the flat whites and things like that. But there is a bit like the hipsters hipster culture, especially in Collingwood where our office is. There's a lot of that. There's a coffee shop, Aunt Peg's, which we took Josh and Ryan to, and that's only black coffee. They do no milk. They literally don't have milk on the premises. You ask for milk and their beards do this like weird like movement. It's super expensive.

Matt: They shrivel up.

Tommy: It's really weird. As a Melburnite, I haven't gone to any of these places because it's too expensive and it's I don't know.

Matt: $5 for a cup of coffee is a lot of money. And that's what they usually— It's $5 or $6. And then, you know, you gotta tip. $7, $8 for a cup of coffee?

Josh: It's kinda crazy. Nah, it's outrageous. And yeah, the whole tipping thing has been time-based.

Matt: But Australia— Oh, yeah, the tipping is a whole nother story. But Australians in general, what have I learned? Yeah. I feel like, uh, yeah, they very much don't take themselves too seriously. Not easily offended. Yeah, uh, but can offend the world, you know what I mean? Like, like, you see them on the news every once in a while, Australia just won't learn. And it's like, I don't know, I'd rather be with like the Aussies who like are just making fun of themselves and other people. And, um, I don't know, there's a bit like the PC culture in America has definitely gone a little bit too far.

Josh: Yeah. Do you think that you would ever live in Australia, or do— when you visit Australia, is there anything that you try and take back to the way you live here in the States? Uh, I think that—

Matt: Well, Australia's become a second home to me, and I think it's always gonna be a place that— I mean, in an ideal world— It's funny, being a minimalist, but likely we'll have— I wanna have a home in Australia where we can actually go and spend either half the year there or months there at a time.

Josh: Brie would be rapt, because she was saying the other day, she's like, "Man, if Matt and Nat lived—" in Australia, it'd be so good.

Matt: Well, we gotta get you guys to move to Sydney.

Josh: Yeah, this is gonna be the content. Maybe we move to Canberra. It's in the middle, halfway. No, don't. Do not.

Matt: Not much there. No, nothing. Or we just go like the outback.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: We could do like Byron Bay or something, but that's just— Sydney's a great option.

Tommy: By the water in Sydney is crazy.

Matt: Yeah, can't beat it.

Josh: I mean, or you could come to Melbourne and be good.

Matt: Yeah, Sydney's easier, I think. I don't know, is Melbourne— is there a lot of direct flights? Yeah, there is. Yeah, there's a direction. I'd have to look into it.

Josh: Yeah. But we could definitely make something work. So, you, um... So that's what you've learned about Australia, is it's the... We're legends. No, we're a bit outrageous at times. Good people.

Matt: People in America love your fucking accents. Yeah. That was actually one thing Nat got really upset early on, 'cause I didn't say anything. 'Cause everybody, even my mom, is just like, "I could just listen to you talk all day." And I'm like, "But she's saying dumb shit." Like, she's not even being intelligent. America's so big.

Tommy: I remember driving through parts and speaking to locals, and they were fascinated by my accent because they hadn't met an Australian. It's like, this country is massive and there's so many people here.

Matt: Oh yeah, if you're, if you're outside of a major city and like— that was one thing that she would always expect somebody if we're in Jersey where I grew up, like in a small town, and she just waits. She gets upset if a barista doesn't say, "Oh, where are you from?" Yeah.

Tommy: We should— our strategy just to get this podcast out there, go to all over America, inland. Yeah, it's very— the Deep South.

Matt: What do you think? We could be good.

Josh: Do you think we could create an audience in the States? Do you think there is an appetite for two Australians talking, or do you think we're just a little bit too removed? I don't know.

Matt: I think so. I don't— that is interesting though, because even when you look at Hamish and Andy and it's like massive in Australia, And I only know about them because of Natalie. Yeah. And do they have much of an audience in America? I mean, they probably— it probably does.

Josh: I think it's like third on their list. I think it's like Australia, UK, the US. And they've done a bunch of— they did a show, like a night show for the Australian— or no, what they did is for the Australian audience, I was going to say. Oh yeah, outside of New York, in New York, uh, specifically for the Australian audience. So they've done heaps of stuff.

Tommy: And they were on Jay Leno, which is huge.

Matt: Oh, they were. That's—

Tommy: so that would have got them a few fans.

Josh: Yeah. But yeah, because I do wonder about that sort of stuff as we go, as, you know, there's more globalization, you know, around the world. Like, what, what does that mean for content creators, people doing stuff?

Matt: Yeah, I mean, my audience, at least on YouTube, and I think even in the podcast, is 50% United States. And then the other 50% is the rest of the world.

Josh: Australia would be up there, I would guess.

Matt: Yeah, Australia. It's like UK, Australia, Canada. And, like, those are the top 4. But then you have Germany, and it just gets obviously smaller and smaller. But it is interesting just to see 50% of my audience— If I was just in America and that's all I could only connect with, it would be much smaller. And I do get surprised, the fact that there are people in Germany that listen to it.

Josh: Yeah. What do you think is the bit that, having listened to a little bit of our show, what do you think wouldn't connect with, say, a US audience versus what might connect with the US? The C-word.

Matt: Offensive. The C-word. No, I mean, I think that there's— the more that I've gotten just to know Aussies in general and you guys, it's that there's really not much different. I think it would be interesting to like be able to learn about somebody else's culture. And as similar as we are, the only gap is gonna be getting over the isms and the vocabulary that Aussies use that nobody else in the world uses. You gotta end it at an O on every word. Bottle-o.

Tommy: Bottle-o.

Matt: It's not a thing anywhere else. Yeah, that's funny.

Tommy: Do you get our accents? Like, is this something that we would have to— struggle with? I don't think so.

Matt: I mean, I— but it's, it's hard because with Nat, uh, I feel like I've kind of— you pick up on it. But it is interesting because even like hearing Bri talk, it's— it takes a little while because it's based upon— it's a distinct accent, but it's also a distinct voice, and you get to know that person's voice with the accent. I don't know if that makes any sense. No, it does. But for me, it's like when— like, Josh, I've heard you talk so much that it's just easier for me to pick up what you're saying.

Josh: Yeah, not Tommy. Talking too much is just such a pain point with him. I've triggered— No, I think Bri has been, uh, whenever we travel, I think people struggle with Bri more. They understand what I'm saying. I don't know, maybe it's because I listen to so much American content, or yeah, Bri might sound like a bit of a bogan.

Tommy: I definitely noticed the differences in our accents, Josh, Bri, and me. When we're here, and I do think you're bogan accent-free. But I think Tommy's also a bit bogan.

Josh: Oh yeah, me too. Do you think like hearing Tommy and I speak, would you be able to pick that Tommy's Australian, do you think, before me? Or what's your take on our accents?

Tommy: The bogan metre is what Josh is saying. Which one's higher?

Matt: Yeah, probably Tommy is like higher on the bogan meter. Fuck yeah, man. Josh is so goddamn sophisticated.

Tommy: It's the the glasses and the turtleneck you've got on.

Josh: There's no turtleneck. I can— I can—

Matt: that's a subtle turtleneck. That's a subtle neck.

Josh: It's too hot in Los Angeles for a turtleneck. Matt D'Avella, mate, thanks so much for being on the Daily Talk Show, and I'm looking forward to this idea of you just fucking coming to Australia. Yeah, we can— we can pot out with our— it's party. I was gonna say pot out with our cocks out. We can do that. Yeah, great. It's part of your culture. Maybe it could be our next run. Our first live show.

Tommy: Looking forward to having you back on, mate. Yeah, thanks guys, have a good one.

Matt: See you guys, bye.