Josh Piterman Sings in Washington Square Park

Josh: Wait a minute! Crossface, the Daily Talk Show. A conversation sometimes worth recording with Josh Janson and Tommy Jackett.

Tommy: It's the Daily Talk Show, everyone, live from New York City and live from Washington Square Park.

Josh: Thank you, TJ.

Tommy: We've got a special guest with us. It's, um, it's nice when you sort of— worlds collide with friends from back home. Home when you're overseas. And that's what happened— has happened right now. Josh Pittiman.

Josh: You're making it sound like we bumped into Josh. Well, well, you did.

Josh: It was organized, but you did. But we basically did.

Tommy: And so, Josh, welcome to the Daily Talk Show.

Josh: Oh, good to be here. Thanks. What do we call it? Is it JJ and TJ?

Josh: Yeah, you can, you can do that. That can be our radio names.

Tommy: What I love about you is you, you sort of pick up— you've— your, like, your rapport with people is super quick. Like, when I first met you, I think you called me TJ pretty quickly. And I appreciate that. You feel like you're friends straight away.

Josh: Peterman's got the— like, he's very onto it.

Tommy: Definitely.

Josh: Yeah, it's a thing. But some people really don't appreciate it. Because I call myself the great equalizer. Like, no one is better than you and no one is worse than you. And that's a sort of— it's like an empathetic thing, but it's also like something that people hate if they feel like they're far superior to you. So when you start throwing in the nicknames straight up and then—

Tommy: yeah. Yeah, the worst is when you write an email to someone and use a nickname and then they respond back and they just have their full name at the bottom and they've written it with regards or best.

Josh: Yeah, best.

Josh: Or don't even put hello, they just say Tommy or it would be Tom. Like how many people write to you, Tommy, and just write Tom?

Tommy: Yeah, Tom. A few people use that. I disown them as friends. I just get rid of them.

Josh: Have you ever had the email and then that you've gone in with the with the man or the mate or the whatever, and they've gone in with prefix and— is it prefix and suffix? Where they're like, yeah, like Dr. Tommy Jacket, ayo.

Tommy: Well, let's just paint— before we sort of work out who Josh is and what the hell you're doing here, because I think that will kind of, you know, evolve over the episode. But we are sitting like we've just— Josh and I were just giving some commentary to a squirrel running up a tree. It's like—

Josh: I love the squirrels. And we said that they're like possums back home, but I don't think they are. It's a sexier sort of rodent.

Tommy: Just the word rodent can't be connected to sexy.

Josh: I'm a sexy rodent.

Josh: Well, that one guy up the tree had some panache.

Tommy: They're cute. They're so much cuter than a possum. And what I was saying was, I wonder if locals think that they are how we feel about possums. Like, possums are annoying. They eat your fruit.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: They shit everywhere and they piss.

Josh: Yeah. And they sound like an aggressive tiger out of your window at night.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. I used to freak out when I was growing up about it. Like I was like some large, you know, puma or cat is like, is at my windows. It turns out they're possums having sex.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: They can sound like babies crying too. Yeah. And I mean, joke's on them when they used to die underneath our house. Actually, no, joke's on us because it used to come through our—

Josh: The stench. Yeah.

Tommy: Through our heating system throughout the house. Oh, yeah.

Josh: It's a comedy show, just a series of jokes.

Josh: It was horrible.

Tommy: So Josh, I met you a couple of years ago at an event, and then we started doing— I did some— I made a video for you.

Josh: Yep.

Tommy: And then, uh, and then you did all the videos on my album. Yes. And then I—

Josh: they've really got around to your other passion.

Tommy: So you've kind of had a few things where you were— I met you when you were in the video, uh, the fitness space. You had a business called PitFit, and that was a passion for you, was it?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. It was a little passion project. It was a side project that became a full-frontal project.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: But then since sort of sold that off and back to the real full-frontal project, which is my performing career.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: Well, we're in the heart of— is this the heart of musical theater?

Josh: This is the Mecca.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is like the Wailing Wall for a Jew. So yeah, it's a pretty special place. It's always very inspirational coming to New York and seeing things on Broadway and just, you know, immersing in the culture of it. It's just the best. Like, there's no other way to describe it. I just— it just fills up my cup so much. Yeah. Yeah. So I always come back for this.

Josh: What's the big difference between sort of amateur theatre and— because I guess everyone has to go through the whole sort of spectrum starting off in school and then doing this sort of like, how much is it different? Yeah, in the sense of like the vibe in the community, because it does it just sort of like flow up to people just eventually?

Josh: I actually think the community element of theater, um, whether it be straight theatre or musical theater, is, um, sort of standard across the board. Yeah, there's something about doing theatre that, um, it's a vulnerability, it's an openness, it's a sharing, it's a trust thing. That makes you have these wonderful friendships with people and great pissy nights and great sing-alongs and, you know, people coming out and sharing their sexual identities. And so much goes on in those worlds regardless of whether it's high school, amateur, college, or, you know, being on Broadway. So that's the wonderful thing about it. Yeah. But the quality of talent, obviously, from my Year 11 production of Fame playing Tyrone Jackson, a black man, a white person playing a black man, so illegal. And to, you know, going off and doing things.

Tommy: How do they tackle that now? Does anyone play that character as a white person?

Josh: It's just not on. Wasn't there that thing on Hey Hey It's Saturday?

Josh: Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I think that was like, and Harry Connick was one of the judges and I think he just walked off. He's just like, this is 'No, we cannot.

Tommy: This is wrong.' Yeah, so people thought it was wrong back then, but it just wasn't.

Josh: But that was sort of mid-2000s when it happened on Hey Hey. Yeah, which has been wrong everywhere else in the world for a lot of years. Racist Aussies like, 'Oh yeah, we'll just blackface.' Yeah, until 2005.

Tommy: It blows my mind seeing people in footy clubs still doing that shit. It's like, do you not know, even if you don't quite understand the concept, don't you realise that you'll get beaten online for it? Like, if that's all you're going to worry about is just how you're going to come across and if you're going to get a few hecklers, forget about the racist bit. It's clearly racist.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And the most recently there's the whole Serena Williams thing and—

Josh: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I—

Josh: We don't really cover massive topics. That's about as far as we go.

Josh: Let's talk about the Aussies. Yeah, they've got a decent track record of being pretty racist.

Josh: Yeah.

Josh: And when you travel internationally, Yeah, you hear about it. Like, we, yeah, we cop it.

Josh: What is the observation?

Josh: We're just absolute racists. See you next Tuesday. Like, yeah, we're shocked.

Josh: And what do you think it comes from? Because I feel like it's not from a malicious place or even thinking negatively towards people. It's just this sort of maybe, I don't know, where does it come from?

Josh: Larrakoon, nonchalant sort of. Carefree society. Yeah, everything's sort of a bit of a joke and no one takes anything too seriously. Even as I'm saying that, like, my Aussie accent's just lifted up a notch.

Tommy: I just feel like, yeah, yeah, I just cracked a VB. I bought one. There's one around the corner.

Josh: I thought you were gonna say, I just cracked a fat.

Josh: That's our classic line of the Daily Talk Show. Didn't know you knew the tagline.

Tommy: We've got a lot of dick jokes on this show. There's been hundreds over the episodes. So I've got two Josh friends Josh Pitterman and Josh Jansen. One can sing and one can't sing. And you know what? It's the one that can't sing that actually sings more often.

Josh: You sing a lot.

Josh: Look, I do like to— I like that he was—

Tommy: No, no, no.

Josh: I was meeting Josh.

Josh: I like a bit. Like, I don't— I'm not much of a nightlife person, which I think is a good thing because otherwise karaoke would be a big part.

Tommy: But no, I was sober guy at karaoke, which is the most weird thing.

Josh: Is that because you want to make sure that you're impeccable vocal health?

Josh: Exactly. No, but I think that I was, when I was in high school, I was in a band with my brother called Jake and the Fat Man. I used to weigh 120 kilos.

Josh: That's why you're named Jake.

Josh: So you can work it out. And nearly every variety night we would over, over bake it. We'd do like 10 minutes of a big melody of all, sorry, a medley of all these. It didn't go down too well. What songs? A lot of like The Offspring, Blink-182.

Tommy: You can really just yell those songs.

Josh: A bit of Missy Higgins. Actually, that was the fight my brother and I had.

Josh: Hold up. So you switched from like All the Small Things to the special—

Josh: You'd like to cart a bar of soap and a scrubbing brush.

Josh: That's a good one. That's got a good Aussie sort of— Yeah. Yeah. You go from like that clown impersonating sound, which was the Blink-182— All the small things. —to sounding like Blinky Bill. Sorry, Missy. You sound great. Love you, Missy. Oh my God, this is so awkward.

Tommy: You know, the reality is Missy's husband could possibly listen to this.

Josh: Yeah, he's a podcast, he's a fellow podcaster.

Josh: And Josh is like, "Oh God." I actually, when I was doing the Ten Tenors, I had like emo time on the tour bus. You know, you spend a lot of time on those tour buses and I listened to The Sound of White on repeat. I was missing my girl at the time and I just like would just sit in the bus and just cry listening to Missy. Like she really got me. I may be taking the piss out of the Blinky Bill thing, but— She's great. She's one of the greats.

Josh: I did a whole— about 5 years ago, I had an internet radio station. I had about 10 listeners every day. So big numbers. Never bothered with an APRA license. Never worried about that. I felt like if you can have more people in a bedroom listening to music, I don't need to worry about licensing. That was sort of my defence anyway. But we did it for Australia Day. We did Missy Higgins all day, Australia Day, playing back to back Missy Higgins. It was great. What's your favorite? I know I do like Scar just because it's a, it's just a classic. And I loved the piano. I actually love the music video too.

Josh: Do you remember that with the piano? Yeah, I do like that one. But it's the one where she's in the car driving the country. I don't know. Oh, it'll come to me.

Tommy: If it comes to you, Josh, we'll put it in the show notes.

Josh: No, but the, Karen King.

Josh: Oh yeah, go on. And she does a little flick. Feeling falling off like clothing.

Josh: Oh, that's fucking, that's good. Yeah, yeah. That's solid.

Josh: Yes, he does. "Face it, it's rolling off your tongue." She does that little flick. Yeah, yeah.

Josh: I'm like, "Oh, she also is a yodeler." The, um, Carole King.

Josh: Yes, she's, she's very talented.

Josh: Yeah, Carole King's very good. Um, you were the, or you still are the male lead.

Josh: It finished 3 weeks ago.

Josh: Yeah, but in Brizzy now or no, is that done?

Josh: No, it's done. The whole Aussie scene and the show is closed in Australia.

Josh: Amazing. Yeah.

Josh: So how many months were you From go to whoa, it was about 13 months. Wow. 370 shows. Yeah, wow.

Tommy: And we caught up when you were in Sydney and you were sort of in the thick of it.

Josh: Thick of— oh no, we caught up right between the Sydney and Melbourne seasons. We had a week off and that's when I did all that album work with you.

Tommy: Yeah. And how was the experience? Unbelievable.

Josh: I mean, the show is incredible. It like ended up winning 5 awards in Australia, including Best Musical. And it's just, it's just an amazing storey of one of the most profound songwriters of the 20th century. She is the most successful female songwriter of the 20th century. And people sort of know Tapestry, that, um, you know, sort of iconic seminal album for so many people, especially the generation before us. Um, it just has so many hits.

Tommy: I will admit, when Josh said, oh, I'm in Carole King: The Musical— who's Carole King? I legit said that. But But a lot of Aussies are like that. In defense, when I did hear some of the songs she's written, I did know. Sing one for us, please. I feel the earth move.

Josh: See, I'm just asking Josh, who can sing, to sing it. That was actually my pump-up song, though. I can't go that high. I couldn't even go that low, let's be honest.

Josh: My range is about 2 notes. I've got Missy Higgins.

Josh: I can't even do Missy Higgins well.

Josh: What else? You've got a friend. James Taylor made that a hit as well. 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow.' I mean, there's just hit after hit. But what people sort of didn't know about her is before '71, when Tapestry came out, her and her husband Jerry Goffin, her first husband— Who you play. Who I played. Yeah. Wrote 50 top 40 hits together. Wow. From '59 to '71. What makes you— Oh, 'You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman.' Like, that's the sort of the big one for her.

Tommy: How's that go? How's that go?

Josh: Yeah. Go, Josh.

Josh: <LYRICS>I feel like a natural woman.</LYRICS> Is it 'natural woman'?

Josh: That's not how it goes, but you saw it was there. You make me feel like a natural woman.

Josh: Yeah, that's a woman.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, you got to do the other bit, the bebees. Yeah, yeah, I think that's why. You do both parts. You do the lead and the bebees.

Josh: I've done it before. I harmonise my own voice. Can you actually, can you live harmonize?

Josh: Is that a thing? It's a Himalayan throat singing involves harmonizing. Yeah, it's like they make multiple sounds. You know who sort of does do it is Missy Higgins.

Josh: You know what? I thought it. I was like, you know what? I'm done with beating Missy. And you did it anyway.

Josh: Who's the beatboxer?

Tommy: Who? Joel? No, American. Oh, Rahzel. Rahzel. Yeah, he does. Yeah. If your mother only knew that. Oh, he beatboxes as well. He's so skilled.

Josh: I'm pretty sure that I did do a few rehearsals for Jake and the Fat Man to do that.

Josh: Cats and Dogs?

Josh: I don't know what it's that.

Josh: No, Boots and Cats.

Josh: Boots and Cats, was that the— Ah, okay, yes, yes.

Josh: Isn't that— that's what Siri does if you ask Siri to beatbox?

Tommy: Yeah, she does. She can do it right now. Beatboxing was a— hang on, I'm gonna say, can you beatbox?

Josh: Here we go.

Josh: He's one I've been practicing, boots and cats and boots and cats and hats on cats and boots. That's the only thing Siri's good for. Yeah, trolling. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise, jokes, you know, but there's literally— she can't really, uh, tell you that much info. No, it's not that. But, um, I did actually— sorry, I just had— we just—

Josh: everyone just stopped for a second there. You tried to keep talking. Yeah, there was something very— like a really attractive woman just ran past us. We are in Washington Square.

Tommy: It's, it's an amazing place. You've got every color, every taste, every— I'm not even just talking about humans. Yeah, I'm talking about dogs at the moment. I feel very bland.

Josh: Being in New York. You feel like it's a buffet of animals.

Tommy: Oh yeah, there's animals everywhere, and I think you notice them because there's no park, like rare, not many parks, and so they're all shitting on the sidewalk. But then people are dressed so cool in New York. There's so many, like, the hair colours of people.

Josh: Yeah, everyone's got that. Everyone's doing their thing is what I sort of noticed in New York, and they feel like they can do it at whatever level they want to do it and give zero fucks about doing it. That's That's what I like. Like, I see dudes down the street, like, just dancing on the street in the middle of the day, like, with their headphones in. They're just like, I just feel like I need to express my life through the form of dance right now.

Tommy: This is a perfect segue. And Bri, can you start filming? So I asked you, I was like, oh, I somehow worked out you're in town or you were in America. I said, mate, are you there on these dates? And I thought How amazing would it be if we could get Josh Pitterman in Washington Square Park to be belting out some sort of—

Josh: With Josh Jansen.

Tommy: What about this? So you released an album which I helped you make some videos for, which were kick-ass. Mate, well done. High fives. You've nailed it.

Josh: So the style was— so you were an opera singer. Like, is that like the lead thing that you do?

Josh: Yes. Classical training is sort of— was my foundation, my base. And then they say if you have a good enough feel and a good enough ear and you listen to enough various music, you should have the technique to be able to motor into anything from classical. It's like, yeah, which isn't the case because I've tried to give it Snoop and Biggie and it just doesn't work for me.

Josh: Better foundation than Jake and the Fat Man. Yeah, probably better foundation than All the Small Things.

Josh: So yeah, that is my foundation, what I love most. Yeah, as you can probably tell, I'm not one of those sort of standard, you know, fat opera singer quintessential vibes. I grew up listening to just pop and rock, and so I wanted to make an album that was classical music with a really contemporary twist.

Josh: What's contemporary? What makes it contemporary?

Josh: Well, the tracks on it are like Radiohead, Goo Goo Dolls. Yeah. So Farnham, Christina Aguilera. Yeah.

Tommy: And then on top of that, they're in Italian.

Josh: Yeah. So I translated some of them to Italian and Spanish. And then some are in English. And then I went over to Prague. I had this incredible opportunity through my connections doing the Ten Tenors years ago to work with the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra. And so they are the orchestra on it. And then there's a pretty sick rock band led by John Foreman. Craig Newman's on that, who's been John Farmer's bassist for ages. So like the quality of the musos on it were just like, just fucking out of control. And they made me sound good.

Josh: So are you in the same room when they're Tracking the bass, is that what you're saying? Tracking the bass?

Josh: Oh no, just putting down the bass.

Josh: Okay, putting down the bass track. Almost.

Josh: Josh? I mean, I was in— that was cool, but like, I've been in, you know, rooms with, you know, with rhythm section. So, you know, bass, guitar, drums, piano. I've never been in a room with a 65-piece Philharmonic Orchestra and singing along with them. That was amazing. Crazy. Some of that vision that I saw. Cutting together, like, just nuts. Like, yeah.

Tommy: And it's their job. They just get together each day and pump out. Yeah.

Josh: So they play at concert halls and whatever around, well, in Prague and around Europe, but they're session musicians as well. So they get hired by everyone from Susan Boyle, Paul Potts, Bocelli to put down the tracks to their albums. Like they've, you know, they've worked with the best.

Josh: What's the lead instrument other than like the percussion? Like, is that the lead? Is the— is the conductor is probably because what I was thinking is an orchestra. Yeah. In an orchestra, like violin is your person.

Josh: Really?

Tommy: So the bass for—

Josh: is bass, is that the lead for a band? Yeah, probably keys. I don't know, with the rhythm section, if you're a drummer, you'll probably say I'm the most important. Yeah, yeah. You're the bass, you say I'm most important. Keys will say they're the most important.

Tommy: I want to bring us back on track because we've veered off now. You did a great intro to set up what I want you to do. So my thought when I spoke to you was like, okay, you're in New York let's do the podcast from Washington Square Park and get you to belt out something because—

Josh: I'm just looking at a chihuahua pissing. It's so funny! It legit is.

Josh: It's tiny.

Tommy: Is that Curtis Hilton? No, it's not. It's very small.

Josh: It's literally smaller than the squirrel.

Josh: Can you just give us something?

Tommy: Because I'm sick of hearing Josh, who can't sing, sing on this podcast. We need someone who can sing.

Josh: Did you have a favourite track? I hope you listened to it.

Tommy: We were listening to it just before we got here.

Josh: Maybe Hallelujah? No, no, no, no.

Tommy: It was the other one. Wish? No. There's Iris. Iris. Iris. I love that. Oh, you picked the hard one. Or just pick one that you think you'll sound the best at.

Josh: Oscar by Missy Higgins. Oscar.

Josh: E non morio, il mondo mi veda. E che non capirebbe il perché.

Tommy: E quando tutto perduto, voglio solo tu sappia di me.

Josh: Round of applause. People are going crazy. Everyone's just looking at me like, oh, he's just a standard American freak. They sing everywhere, they do crazy things.

Tommy: So, um, yeah, everyone was looking around for a fat man because that voice, they thought it was going to come from it.

Josh: I'm not a fat man, people. I'm not a fat man. I'm a Polish man. My t-shirt says it. Yes. Yeah. So Polish Man is— so it's a clean segue to the Polish Man campaign.

Josh: No, it's great. It's very good. So this— we're, uh, start of October, getting start of October. What's Polish Man, is this the first year you've been involved?

Josh: Not the first year I've fundraised. This is the third year I've fundraised, and I think they finally went, "Oh yeah, you can be an ambassador." So yeah, it was a no-brainer. Like, it's such an incredible cause. For those people who don't know it, the general crux of it is that— and it's just, this blew my mind, and it always blows my mind— one child every 5 minutes child in the world dies from violence. And, you know, much, much more often than not, the perpetrators are men. And it's just a sickening fact that like every time I sort of actually sit in that, like you can't help but feel fucking ill. Like it's just wrong. Like the world shouldn't have kids that fear for their life all the time. So we are part of the fundraiser. We paint one nail on our hand, one represent the 1 in 5, and hopefully it sparks up conversation, which it has a lot in New York. And we get people to start their own little fundraising campaigns or donate, and the money goes to the victims' families and to the communities to ensure that this sort of thing just ceases to exist in our world.

Tommy: I've seen about 5 blokes since being here with nail polish on, and it has nothing to do with the Polish Man. It's just we're in New York. Yeah, of course. But one, no, these guys had like full finger, full, all the nails done. But yeah, it's definitely—

Josh: Did it have a bit of, um, what do they call it, bejazzle?

Josh: You could. I remember seeing previous Polish men have done that.

Tommy: They've gone sort of sparkly, gone, um, I might try that.

Josh: I think, uh, if you're, if you're a performer, you, you sort of have licence to get away with that. Yeah, so I might go for maybe a rainbow one or, or whatever.

Josh: Do you feel that as a performer you have to sort of play like, do you naturally play in this a certain area of sort of as a character?

Josh: No, no. Like, I mean, I'm a pretty out there forward guy anyway, and I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that as a sort of persona, as an actor, it's just, just how I am.

Tommy: Well, I think you're high energy. I think when I, when I first met you, you don't, you don't watch me when I'm at home by myself. I've set up cameras that you don't know about. This is the time for me to tell you that. No, no, but I think like when I've observed you, like I do everybody, I just mean seeing them and being around people.

Josh: I like that TJ's trying to like play it down now. It's like, as I said, as I observe you, it does sound like—

Tommy: No, yeah, I said they sound like—

Josh: it's like when you say, as I observe you, I notice some of your mannerisms and I understand that maybe you think you are— I like his accent. I like his accent.

Tommy: Oh, that's a great accent. Reeled it out, mate.

Josh: It's got a lot of Australian politician about it. No, but you're high energy you're consistent in that.

Tommy: So it is just you, because I think when you meet people that are high energy, you go, fuck, are they— is this just them at one point, or are they gonna be completely different another time that you see them? Therefore they're playing a character. Yeah. And you are just you.

Josh: But it's not even performing, right? I think that, like, probably in the arts as well, mental health is such a fucking thing. Like, the highs can be met with massive lows.

Tommy: Have you experienced people that are like what I'm saying? Those people who ball of energy, but that's not them always.

Josh: 100%. Yeah. And it's not anyone always, I gotta say. Like, I have— I need to spend a lot of time alone.

Tommy: With squirrels in the park. With squirrels in the park.

Josh: No, like, I'm an avid meditator. I need a lot of alone time to sort of fill up my internal cup so that I can then share the contents of that cup with people when I'm with people. If I'm just constantly pouring, pouring out, like, you run the world dry of energy, of love, of all the things that you need in conversation and relationships.

Tommy: Do you think you need to do that more so because you're on stage giving so much? Yeah.

Josh: When I'm in a show, I'm really not very social.

Tommy: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah. Especially a role like Gerry, who, you know, most people won't know the storey of Gerry Goffin, but he was an incredible genius and wrote the lyrics to, you know, he wrote the lyrics to "You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman." He wrote the lyrics to like "Saving All My Love for You" with Whitney Houston. He wrote the lyrics to so many amazing hits, but he was a really troubled genius. He had alcohol and drug addictions. He had some serious mental health issues to a point where, I mean, he was on electroshock therapy for 25 years. Shit. So yeah, he was Seriously, not in a good way.

Josh: Did they cover that in the musical?

Josh: Not the electroshock therapy, but certainly the mental breakdown, the panic attacks, the, um, yeah, all of that. So going through that 8 times a week, um, for a year, like, it's, it's really quite exhausting. And so I just needed my own time. So I was, I was pretty antisocial for that year. And I think, um, you know, your mates after a while of doing, doing so many musicals, mates after a while just realise Oh yeah, when Pittman's in that, you know, doesn't spend as much time with us and whatever, he's just sort of in his own world and, and they just sort of understand it, that that's, that's where the priorities lie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yes, I am a high energy person, but I can be the opposite. Yeah, yeah. When, when I need to refuel.

Tommy: But today we're in a park and you're singing.

Josh: Yeah. And the low's coming. No, the—

Tommy: so we won't see him for a year.

Josh: Yeah. So after this. From an arts point of view, like, has it been something that you like having that sort of energy? Because I think like I'm fairly creative too, and I've been around creative people and it can sort of feed this—

Josh: I know this missy is.

Josh: It can sort of, it can feed a sort of community a certain way. What do you think the actual, what comes out of having that sort of energy? Is there a certain way like that you interact with people or how you work as a community that actually helps with things like being able to be antisocial or have those moments?

Josh: I'm not entirely sure. I think the thing about performers is there isn't one way. Like, a lot of people generally think that performers are always high-energy people. They're not. Like, I've worked with so many excessively introverted, quiet, shy people who The only time they sort of express any real, what we call sort of outward energy is on stage. And then other than that, they're like almost reclusive, very, very shy, terrible. It would be terrible at this situation just talking to people that, you know, people that they've never met before.

Tommy: Yeah. Chris Lilley, he's very much like that. I was like, whoa, because he plays these dynamic racist characters, but he plays these characters that are loud and noisy, and then he said—

Josh: and that's his, his vehicle to, to behave like that and express that. But other than that, you know, I've met Chris a couple of times too, and it's exactly that. Um, and there's, there's lots and lots of people like that, so it comes in all, um, in all, in all types.

Josh: Uh, and it doesn't sort of change the dynamic of, say, like, well, yeah, like, say a whole— because I'm guessing it's very close, as you've sort of mentioned, the community. Yep. Is there, because there's so many people who have the highs and the lows, do you think that it creates a more supportive community, or is everyone fucked together?

Josh: Well, what it should create, and I hope it does create, is that a knowledge of suffering that we all have. We all go through crap. And so what it should create is, is a sort of you know, some compassion towards each other. And I hope it does. I certainly feel like that, that, you know, you know that people are on the edge during audition times and that, and got to sort of deal with things lightly and be a bit more caring. There is a strong— there's some strong organisations around mental health. We know that the roller coaster of being a performer means that you do have ups and downs. I think I've learned that You've got to somehow find ways to squash the roller coaster. Yeah. Make the, make the highs a bit lower, make the lows a bit higher. And that means— I have this conversation a lot with people of like, it's about what, how you define yourself. And when you're sort of as an actor or as a performer in any way defined by your work, work, whether or not you're in it or not in it, and then when you're in it, the quality of the work that you're doing— if that sort of defines you as a person, then you're running the risk of the extremities of the roller coaster. Yeah. If you can find other ways to define you and, and, you know, other ways to, to find your truth and, and have self-love that doesn't come from, I got cast in that thing, or the audience supported me louder tonight, or whatever, um, you're much more likely to have a safer, longer journey on the path. And for me, it's all, you know, it's things like meditation have really helped me because they've helped me understand myself and then understand the broader community of the sufferers of being a performer, and then the broader community of this fucking world who, you know, to a degree we all suffer. We're all flawed, we all have our issues, and if you can walk around under the knowledge that we do.

Tommy: Then you're not weird or—

Josh: No, that you just, we all— Part of the journey. Yeah. That you can sort of seek comfort in that, that you're all, we're all special and none of us are special. Yeah. Yeah, in a way.

Josh: It's a paradox. I think the managing the highs is interesting because I don't think it's necessarily spoken about that much. How do you manage the highs?

Josh: Well, for example, like when the album came out, I had no expectations for it. It's a classical crossover album, you know, I just didn't have really just have any expectations on it other than it was this massive passion project for years. But then it went to number 1 on the ARIA and number 1 on the iTunes charts. Take that, André Rieu. In the in the classical world. And I like immediately I was like, like it was what the fuck? Like, what the fuck? And I was just like, I got the call from, from the record label. It was about 7:00 and I was about to do a show at 7:30 and I was just screaming in my dressing room. No one came in.

Josh: I think just the sound of you screaming, like, were you saying help or were you looking for attention?

Josh: I was like, I was like literally going, like a girl, like a little girl. Ah! What the fuck? What the fuck? What the actual fuck? Like, I was like, yeah, no one comes in. No one comes in the door.

Josh: Tried again. Just throwing shit around.

Josh: He was just doing his thing. And, you know, he wanted to share with the whole world, so he posted on social media. And then I was just like, cool, that was awesome. And in that week post it, I immediately did some reflecting and went, what was my— what was the best part of this album? Yeah. Like, and the journey is still going with it. But what was the best part? I go, it's actually the number one thing was a high for, I don't know, 5, 15, 20 minutes. The best fucking part was being in the studio with— in Prague and listening to the orchestra play the orchestrations and the music that we've spent the last half a decade creating. Because that moment when they played those first bars, Iris, the Goo Goo Dolls track, was the first one they played. I just broke down. Like, I was— it was so such an outpouring of emotion because you've been— I've been hanging on to this stuff for so long and it's been my baby and John Foreman's baby to a degree, sort of the two of us working on this thing. Then it expanded out to maybe 6 or 7 people working on it. And then suddenly this orchestra is creating the work. And like, yeah, for me that will be the most magical.

Tommy: Yeah, isn't it? The process is so rewarding, but yet the high from success of something, especially nowadays for everyone online, seeing numbers skyrocket and all this attention come and it can fuck with your head. Totally. But that, that high is higher than the feeling of that lower consistent, like, joy that you get from your creative craft. Yeah.

Josh: And so it's really process versus result. Yeah, that's what it comes down to.

Josh: You need to enjoy the process because if you say, if you do like daily vlogging, if you're vlogging every day and fucking hate that bit and only get the joy when it comes out, numbers, it means that you're only going to have joy for like half an hour.

Josh: Well, I do it. Same with me. If I'm, you know, waiting for the applause at the end of the number or at the end of the show and actually don't like doing the show at all, or waiting for the an album to go number one but don't like singing or don't like the creative process, well, there's no point in doing it. It's not art. There's actually no art in it. Well, here's the question for you.

Tommy: Do you think, like, because I haven't met many people that are doing something consistently that are doing it only for numbers, because I think the thing that they're doing is actually too hard to do if you're not passionate about it. So have you— do you think there are actually people that do it strictly for the number but are actually doing something hard, like people who make videos daily, that's a hard thing to do. Yeah.

Josh: So, you know what, I think if you ask anyone who's in any of those worlds, and pretty much, pretty much any, any, any career that involves a level of passion, they'll tell you that the process is the most important. But if they truly sort of analyse daily situations, are the— in that analyzing, are they sort of going Hang on, I'm more results-driven than process-driven. I don't actually, I'm actually not that present in what I'm doing. I'm outcome-based. I'm trying to get that email sent. I'm trying to get that document finished and signed. Like they're not actually in the process of writing it and enjoying it.

Josh: It's like health and fitness, right? Like, are you doing it because you want the abs or are you doing it because you enjoy the process?

Josh: Yeah, yeah. And it's exactly the same thing.

Tommy: So you're saying I shouldn't want abs? Am I? Because I want abs.

Josh: Um, yeah, I know, I mean— I love abs, but I don't like the process. And I love when I have abs too, and you go, fuck, I worked really hard for that, and here's the result of it. But if I fucking hated the 8-week transformation thing that I did, well then there's no longevity, there's no sustainability.

Tommy: If you love going and lifting weights 5 days a week because you'll probably get abs at some point. Yeah. If you just— yeah, just from the doing of it. Yeah. Did you get a sense when you said, I saw those numbers, number 1, and I— and you got all that high emotional state happening, were you like, okay, hang on, maybe I need to think about the process? I was very much—

Josh: no, no, not at all, because I love that process. But I was— I've become very aware the older I get of those highs because there have been some great moments in my career. And I'm much more like, all right, let's celebrate this. Let's have a fucking great night out. And that's about this. And then let's, let's move on and move forward to the next moment in my life. And that was, that was really it. I think you have to have the celebrations or else, yeah, you know, you're not really experiencing it in a way.

Tommy: Yeah, I find I don't actually celebrate enough.

Josh: Well, I think that's a part of the process too. Yeah, that's— I think that's a really important part of the process because you have worked your ass off on things and they deserve the celebration. Yeah. Even just the completion of the project, regardless of the external outcome, you know, or the external response to it. Well, here's the thing.

Tommy: You get rewarded from people in your community for having that one thing that does get the numbers or get the attention. And then they're saying congratulations or, you know, this is great. And it's only on one little piece where they're not saying, well done, you've worked really hard over the last 6 years on your singing and it's now at a point where you just like, it's beautiful and it's all coming together for you.

Josh: That's not what I say.

Tommy: No, I say, Josh, that number 1 beat that Andre Rieu guy.

Josh: That's why people seek that sort of thing, right? It's like with TJ was on The Project last week for doing an exposé on 7-Eleven coffee.

Tommy: It was a silly thing to be on The Project for, but What was the exposé about?

Josh: The quality of coffee?

Tommy: Do you wanna know? I do wanna know. Please, 'cause you guys haven't been in the country. I haven't been in the country. So it was just something, I saw a guy test— Tommy's the biggest fan of 7-Eleven coffee to start with. Getting a $3 coffee, you press the button and a guy poured it into a $2 cup and it fits. And so there's this size problem that they've got. Not the first time Tommy said it. A $3 fits into a $2, so they're ripping you off a dollar. That's the sort of essence of the video. It's just this fun little test that I did. But it's like, what did Kerry have to say about that?

Josh: She was on there.

Tommy: It's a bunch of other people.

Josh: Um, what are they on, like spring holiday or something?

Tommy: They're on, yeah, school holidays or something. Uh, Waleed Ali's wife was filling in. So it was, no, but it was fun. But a lot of people said to me, well done, like congrats mate, which is cool. It's like Sure, it's the thing that struck a chord with you.

Josh: And you said, "I've been working on an exposé for the last 5 years." Yeah, it's in the blood, sweat, and tears.

Josh: Do you find that, is it an individualistic or sort of a group process, what you do?

Josh: It depends on the project. I think when you're in a cast, there's gotta be a sense of we're a team. And when you're working with another actor, I, you know, it's, um, well, they, the great ones always say acting is reacting. So, um, if you're not, if you're not with that other person and you're not sharing that experience with them and it's all about you, then, well, then it's going to be fucked to a degree, I think. So there always has to be a sense of community, always sense of team, but it, it's, um, it's a solo thing at times, you know, and it's, and it's an alone world at times. And if you can separate an alone world from a lonely world, I think you'll be okay. When it gets lonely, that's when it gets dangerous. I think that's when people start turning to alcohol and drugs and whatever to sort of soothe the thoughts or whatever's going on within them.

Tommy: What creates the loneliness? Because you could have two people in the same position and one's lonely, one's not lonely. One's alone. Yeah, one's alone. Yeah.

Josh: And one's lonely. Yeah. And this is, I think this is probably one of the most important things. I think alone has an awareness to it. It has a presence to it. It has a comfortability to it. It has a self-love to it. That's some of the most valuable qualities you can have as any individual. A loneliness is a sort of involves things like playing the blame game, what, like, you know, psychoanalysing things in your head, creating storylines in your head. You know how we do that about anything, like, you know, she said that to me, or he said that to me, and then suddenly creating those narratives. Yeah, you create this narrative about it and you go, oh, fucking hell, I feel so lonely in this. I feel so Yeah, I've got a full bag of coke and a bottle of gin. You're gonna make me feel really better right now.

Josh: For a second there, you were in such an acting state.

Tommy: Yeah, at any point, there's a miniature little furry-looking creature that walked past. Not sure what that is.

Josh: And so, can you recognise when you're getting into the state of talking about narratives and thinking about that, and how do you get out of it?

Josh: Yeah, I mean, I guess that comes back to meditation too.

Josh: What sort of meditation do you do? Is it like a specific style?

Josh: I would say Vedic is the sort of the one I do, but like, I'm happy just to— I love Andy Puddicombe, like, who's the creator of Headspace. I think he's an amazing guy. And so I'm happy just to chuck on Headspace, the app, and get busy on that and sit with that. I love his, you know, his thoughts of the day and Um, had a really good one yesterday about letting go, which has been a huge part of narrative for, for me, like an internal narrative for me this year about, um, expectations of, of things and, and people. Um, and just learning to, to let go of it, not, not, um, yeah, not creating storylines and narratives around things that you can't control.

Josh: Um, how do you keep that for longer term? Because I feel like I have those moments too where I listen to an audiobook and I feel inspired. But how do you cement it from something that is with you for a day or you have an experience with a homeless person, then all of a sudden you have this extreme empathy and then you go on to your regular day and start to, you know. Well, I think it's about consistency.

Josh: You know, it's a practice. It's, you know, if you're meditating, 10 minutes a week, you're going to have a certain experience and a certain outcome. If you're meditating 20 minutes twice a day, things are going to be really different. It's just repeating those thought patterns. It's sort of a neural adaptation, I guess, that you can't help but become, you know, more grateful, more empathetic, more present.

Josh: I mean, is there a quality over quantity thing, and is there diminishing returns with it? Like, is it— because I guess— no, I don't think so.

Josh: I don't think you'd be good or bad at meditating. Yeah. Um, and I think that's the thing that people go into it a lot. They sort of go like, trying to be like, yeah, I, I don't know how to stop my thoughts. Yeah, I just can't stop my thoughts. I'm like, well, why don't you let go of the idea of stopping your thoughts and just understand you're gonna have thoughts. Yeah. But if you can have some sort of mantra, some sort of central thing that you're coming back to, whether it's a word or whether it's a phrase or whether it's a breath or whatever it is, that, you know, over time those thoughts will dissipate. There's a really good Andy Puddicombe animation. That's what I love about it. He does these little animations on Headspace that are great. And one of them is—

Josh: He's enlightened and also knows After Effects. Yeah, he does.

Josh: I just think it's really, really great way of communicating. He loves the process. He said sometimes we get into these, um, this storyline of, of thoughts, negative thoughts generally, and it's like being on a freeway with cars coming back and forth and you're running. The freeways, the cars are like your thoughts and you're running and chasing them all and trying to go, what about that one? And then you move from that one to the next one. Well, what about what we're doing right here right now? And you sit back objectively and on the side of the freeway, which is one, sort of better in terms of the thoughts, but two, just fucking safer because you're not gonna get hit by trucks. And just allow the cars to go by and watch them. And that's basically what it is. You watch the thoughts go by and you come back to your central thing. And over time, those thoughts sort of dissipate a little bit, or you learn to not engage in them as much. I don't know, there's nothing that's been more life-changing for me as a human, as an actor, than engaging in that.

Josh: What about ambition then? Because I guess you could say the same thing with like, say every one of those cars is an opportunity. Yep. You know, how do you control ambition? Is ambition something that needs to be kept in check? Or do you find that like you're better? Because I find sometimes that when I forget about something, when I, pull away from it, when I stop trying so hard, it actually starts to come towards.

Josh: That's exactly what this one was about yesterday. This letting go is, you try and chase something and you work out, it's like you become more confused or it's not coming to you and then you let it go and it comes to you.

Tommy: Is it too much focus on something?

Josh: I think it's actually like focus on outcome or a lack of clarity in your thought. When you're chasing cars, Great track.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, great track.

Josh: Very good. How's it go? I was really hoping the other Josh sang it. Which Josh? If I lay here, if I just lay here. Good track.

Josh: Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

Josh: Okay, that website's your new album, isn't it?

Tommy: Yeah, so if you, um, the JJ JJ album.

Josh: If you don't have clarity, back to it, if you don't have clarity on what you're actually going for, yeah, then I think you're always gonna fail. So ambition is like, I don't think with meditation and letting go you lose a sense of ambition. You actually can gain clarity. Yeah. And so you go, this is, this is my yeses, this is my nos, and this is where I want to go on my, on my path. And, um, I have the, the presence to, to enjoy it and watch it as it happens. I have peripheral to see what's happening on either side. It's not like I'm a racehorse with the blinkers on. And, but I know exactly what I'm trying to achieve here and I'm going to go on that path and I'm ambitious about it. And that's— I think that's healthy.

Josh: I think it must be hard for you being like sort of a triple threat or even—

Josh: I don't dance.

Josh: I'm not very good at dancing. Or whatever threat you want to call it. Like, you've got a lot of talents and so that must open up so many different opportunities. And so if you go, don't just do this, do I do this? You could present, you could do. And so how do you control that?

Josh: I mean, I, it's about, um, that's definitely about clarity. Like, yeah, what, what do I want to, to go for at the moment is I really want to be able to do my, my, my music, my classical crossover stuff, um, live as much as possible. So we're working on an Australian tour at the moment, but I mean, I hope Australia loves it, but I, I know that that music's more of a thing in Europe. Yeah, so how do I get, uh, you know, UK and Europe distribution of this album? Well, no one knows me in Europe, so, uh, I love also doing musicals, so I know my path is sort of go, all right, I gotta spend more time in London and audition there and, uh, and hopefully get some, um, big roles in the West End. And with that, I can sort of, um, you know, use the album as sort of collateral together with that and hopefully develop a bit more of a reputation. Bit more of a name there, and then that's going to give me opportunities to do my UK and Europe stuff with the album. So I go, well, there's a bit of a 3-year path there. And so that's what I'm sort of at the beginning of now. I'm spending— I'm going to be spending a bit more time in London.

Tommy: It's a strategy a lot of people use where they go, okay, I'll do the something to then get to that other thing. But the good thing in your case is the something is actually something you're actually passionate about, whereas people working a job—

Josh: I'm talking about something that's going God, I really love to play Phantom in Phantom of the Opera. Like, that's not a something. That's like—

Josh: it's huge. And it's still part of plan A.

Tommy: It's all a part of it. I think where people feel so unfulfilled is when they are just an accountant. No diss to accountants, but if you hate it and you're only doing it because of something—

Josh: if you're an accountant at the radio station hoping to get on air, it's probably— yeah, you're probably in the wrong area.

Josh: Or you're going, look, I can sing, I can sing in these few styles, I could go down that track or that. And I also like musicals, and I also like TV and film, and I also like hosting. And like, you just got— yes, it's good to have your finger in pies, but suddenly you are, you're spreading yourself too thin, I think. And you go, I can't actually do any of this well. Yeah, I can, but I can do a lot of things.

Josh: So contemporary opera isn't the biggest market in, you know, you're not turning on FM radio and hearing it. How do you navigate and decide around things where it's like, actually deciding to go down the path of having a niche?

Josh: Having a niche. Yeah. Well, maybe it's one of those things that you find and finds you. I don't know. When I started singing and doing singing training, I just loved that stuff. Yeah. You know, I loved Josh Groban. I love Pavarotti and looking at all the old tenors. And so I'm not going to mention the names because people go, I don't know.

Tommy: I like you mentioned one that I knew.

Josh: Yeah, Pavarotti. Got it. Yeah, Pavarotti. And I just love singing like that. Yeah. And so when I got to join the Ten Tenors and when I was like 21, I'm like, this is— So what is the Ten Tenors? The Ten Tenors is an Australian, a very successful Australian pop opera group that have travelled around the world, done albums to great acclaim since the mid-'90s. And the cast, it's got a sort of got a bit of a cast turnover. Yeah, now they started as 10 Queensland guys from the conservatorium there who, after the sort of success of the Three Tenors, got together and tried to get a bit of beer money together and ended up doing really well in Queensland and then started doing quite well in Australia in the late '90s and then got picked up to do stuff in Germany and suddenly just doors open all through Europe and the States. And ever since then they've been touring. They're probably next to like the Blue Man Group and the Wiggles.

Josh: It's like the Thunder Down Under. Is that what they are? Yes, it's the strippers.

Josh: I reckon they've been the top 5 most successful all-time Australian international touring groups. Who Thunder from Down Under? It's an incredible success storey of, you know, rags to riches. So doing that was amazing, but, you know, you're one-tenth, and I've always wanted to do it by myself. Some of those spots that we travelled to through Europe, I've just gone, that's exactly where I want to perform, you know, like in the— I guess it's like a piazza in Santiago, which is in the northwest part of Spain near Portugal. Like that, that for me, like looking like I could so vividly remember looking out there and singing there and just going, what the fuck is my life?

Josh: This is incredible.

Josh: 21. 21 doing this. But I want to go back there. Yeah, with my music.

Tommy: We've got such similarities. I was 19 touring with a stripping group in New Zealand.

Josh: So similar. It reminds me a lot of Jake and the Fat Man at Variety Night.

Josh: Not to mention.

Tommy: How does that sit now with where you're at and looking back and seeing where that fits in your journey to where you're going and where you are now looking to where this is going?

Josh: I think in my 20s I failed to look back. You had all the experiences and really fully appreciate them, the full gravity of them.

Josh: Because where were you looking?

Josh: We were forward. Yeah. At the next thing. Yeah. And now I definitely can spend much more time reflecting on that and that reflection actually inspiring the next part.

Tommy: Is it because you're more content with the progress you've made, or is it because you're more aware?

Josh: Probably both. Yeah, probably a bit of both.

Tommy: Yeah. Like it helps getting some wins and going, fuck, okay, that's, that's puts, puts me at ease here that I've, I've managed to reprove yourself, right?

Josh: Like when you're younger, there's this sense of like, well, I haven't done it yet and I need to. So maybe ego plays a bigger role because you know that you've got it inside you, but you don't have the runs on the board yet.

Josh: It's totally, but I think that, you know, the wins, I don't know whether wins teach you as much as the losses. Yeah. I actually reckon the losses are probably more important in terms of creating a, steeling you to be able to get through the shit. Yeah. And if they were all wins, I don't think anyone would do that well. You got to have that pain. You gotta have some form of pain. And I mean, it's relative pain. Like, my pain is different to, you know, a suffering refugee in Syria. You know, it's a different kind of pain, but we all have some form of pain.

Tommy: You look at child stars that have always had yeses, and you hear about trainwreck child stars. It's like maybe just when they start falling off a little bit, it's too difficult. Yeah. Because you've just felt such success all your life, you don't know any different, don't have those coping mechanisms.

Josh: Yeah. And so if— so acting's a really good thing for that because, um, no one really hears about all the rejections you get. Um, but like pretty much most weeks I'll— or months I'll be out for something, whether it's an ad or, um, a TV thing, or send through a self-tape, or do an audition or something, and you don't get it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and learning how to just go not emotionally attached to it. Like we're talking about saying before, like not allowing that to sort of define me. Like, just go, well, I'm still talented. That just wasn't right for me. Maybe they were looking for the blonde guy, or maybe I just didn't suit that role. My vibe's not the vibe they want. That's cool. Doesn't mean I'm shit.

Josh: What has been something that you've sort of— a rejection or sort of a trip that you've had where you've fallen over? That's been a big lesson for you? Has there been any real key ones? Um, yeah, I've always—

Josh: my, my being my bonnet, I guess it's still a bit in my bonnet. I always want to do Les Mis. Yeah. Um, so in 2012, I moved over to London, um, and, um, auditioned for it straight away. And they said, oh yeah, come back for a callback. And did a callback and didn't hear much. And then it was coming out to Australia. And so I went back to Australia to do sort of the final rounds of the auditions. And they go, well, we've seen you. It's the same creative team. So we've seen you twice already. We don't need to see you again for these initial stages. Come towards the end. So I went towards the end and didn't get it. And I've always not just thought of myself as that role in that show. Growing up through uni and whatever, I'm like, I am that role and I am perfect for that and I will play that. And so to go, "Nup, you're not right for it," was like, I just couldn't understand it. It just sat with me so ugly for so, so many months. I mean, how old was— it was, yeah, probably 5 or 6 years ago. And I just couldn't understand it that— and what you do is you start the conversations with people you talk about the auditions with mates and, you know, have that thing of like creating storylines about what they were hypothesizing, the creative team, and you go down these tracks about things. And these are conversations, hypotheses conversations that last 45 minutes to an hour. I'm like, it's all fabricated stuff in my head and in the head of my friends or whatever.

Josh: And that comes from like, we say that we've got a good gut instinct and we know these things. We don't know what other people are thinking.

Josh: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and we say it in order to allow ourselves to come to ease with it or to place blame on it. When at the end of the day, I am responsible for a huge component of it. The fact that I wasn't right for it. I wasn't the— I didn't do a good job in the room. And I was nervous as fuck in that audition because I placed so much emphasis on it. You were so attached. Yeah, I was so attached. It meant everything that if I didn't get it, I couldn't sort of live with myself. Yeah, so you set yourself up.

Tommy: I think if you were to describe a resilient person in that space, it'd be someone who can go to auditions, do them, get knocked back. Nah, it's not for me. Next one, do it. But to become a resilient person, it requires that. You need that shit.

Josh: You need it. And then I actually, um, found a video online probably 2 and a half years ago of Bryan Cranston. Do you know Bryan Cranston? Yeah, from Breaking Bad. Main character. Yeah, Modern Family. Yeah, uh, not Modern Family, um, Malcolm in the Middle. Um, good show. And he said the problem with actors is they're going in to an audition trying to get a job. Yeah, and that creates a scenario where they are going to fail. They're setting themselves up for fail. What an actor should be doing is going in with the most interesting, compelling version of whatever character they're trying to go for, and that's it. And you do that in the room, and then you let it go, you leave it. And he's like, and there's strength in that, and there's power in that. You can win. That's it. I have always gone in trying to get the gig.

Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it's outcome, not progress.

Josh: Totally. Yeah, and From then on, all I've done is gone, what is my most interesting version of it? So my prep for the audition is far more enjoyable because I'm coming up with all sorts of interesting things that like, I'm in my space going, ooh, that's a beauty. I'm like actually having a great time with it. And then it's just about going, I'm just gonna repeat that in the room and try and be present and see if I can come up with more things in the room. And when they throw me stuff, I'm gonna take on that direction and play with that. And that creates a really good energy. I think people probably want to work with that energy more, but I enjoy it more. And I go, well, on that day I did the very best version of that character I could in that place in time. Yeah. And that's all I can do.

Tommy: It's transferable advice to job interviews. Yeah. To life. It's hard to swallow for some people because I think you go— I remember me feeling like that, not getting something and being super destroyed about it. But if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't I wouldn't be the person I am now. And that's a hard thing to swallow.

Josh: It's like a part of the path.

Josh: Yeah.

Tommy: For people that are, at what point did you go from telling yourself, no, this is okay to actually, no, this is okay. Yeah. The lame is, yeah.

Josh: For you with that example, you know, you said it was 5 or so years ago. What has been the, what part of the process are you in now in the sense of accepting? Is there a level of acceptance that you have now?

Josh: There is, but there's also an understanding that sometimes I'll revert back to bad habits. Yeah. And get emotionally attached. And it's normally down the back end of a run of an audition, like when I get to the very final stage. Although I had a really nice one recently where I had some auditions to take over for a role in Aladdin across Australia and got down to the last two and didn't get it. Couldn't fucking ride the carpet. Kudara. And it's fucking mechanical. I don't know what they're doing. And I was in Byron. This is maybe 3 weeks ago. Yeah. And my agent called me. I was at Watergoes. I love Watergoes. And he called me and I can hear the sad tone in his voice. Hit me with it, mate. And he's like, they just called and they said they love what you did. And you couldn't have done a better job, but they're going with the other guy. And I went, okay. And I went, I couldn't have done a better job with what I had. And I was like, you know what, I have some really good feelings about my time in London and my time in New York and this holiday.

Josh: Byron is very relaxing though too. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Josh: But it was a— I'm in a much better headspace about dealing dealing with that. And I know that there will be times when I'll be really emotionally attached to something and, uh, it'll hit me like, you know, a tonne of bricks in the face. Um, and I'm also cool with that too. That's just to go, you know, you, you can't be just so easy about everything all the time. Like, you know, you revert.

Josh: But we're speaking with our mate, uh, Rhys Mitchell, who's an Australian actor, talking about about how you can be entrepreneurial as an actor with the idea that your job is basically getting picked for things. How do you find it when it comes to performing? How do you sort of manage being entrepreneurial? 'Cause you did PitFit. You were like, you actually had a crack and did business. Yep.

Josh: And I think I've always been someone, if you ask any of my sort of mates in the biz, they'll say he's very business. And I've always been like, hustled for gigs when I'm out of work. I mean, trying to get corporate gigs or singing an anthem at an event or whatever it is just to like pay the bills. I've always hustled really hard for that and had a supportive community. Like, you know, I'm Jewish and I would say Jewish. I'm not like hardcore. The ish is prominent, but the Jewish community in Melbourne have been really supportive of that and always, you know, booked me for something. Or whatever.

Tommy: And that does a lot of bar mitzvahs. Have you done a lot of bar mitzvahs?

Josh: No, no, no, never bar mitzvahs and weddings, just like events or whatever. Um, so I've always hustled hard for, for those sort of things. Um, but at the end of the day, I— the, the work is business, is a part of it. That's why it's called show business. But the art is primary. And if you're all business and no art, yeah, then you're stuffed. But sometimes if you're all art and no business. Yeah, this sort of stuff too, because it's all good and well doing some amazing work, but if you're playing to, you know, your living room, then no one's seen it. So, um, I think you gotta, you gotta strike a balance or surround— like, if you don't have that business head, yeah, really good people who can, can help you with that.

Josh: Yeah, the Anthem thing, like singing at an event, I feel like that's one of the scariest things someone could do. Like whenever I've been at a stadium and you see someone singing the anthem, that's sort of like, if people are scared of public speaking, then this is the epitome of like fear.

Josh: Because you can't do it well, you can only do it badly. Yeah, like it's not the original. Like when was the last time you heard, God, I came from that Aussie, that Socceroos game, Anthem! It was all about the anthem. He— she was it. Was just this vocal performance that blew me away. What about the score? I don't remember the football. Just remember the anthem. Never happens. You only get people who stuffed it up, forgot the lyrics or went to the second verse of Och Aye Cairie. Who did the American one really poorly?

Tommy: Mariah Carey? No, someone else.

Josh: From Black Eyed Peas. Oh yes, Fergie. She butchered it. I've got it. There's a great one of Michael Bolton.

Josh: She started with, "Let's get it started." That's good. I don't know many references. I'm really impressed by that because Black Eyed Peas did that song.

Josh: Let's get it started. So yes, it's so scary. What preparation do you do? Well, you just do what you can. The thing is, there's a lot of the words. There's so much external stuff that can go wrong and it generally sound related. Of course. Firstly, the sound bounces around the stadium and you get like, you know, the delay of hearing the sound coming back and also everyone singing out of time. So that's— So you have in-ears. You got your in-ears. Yeah. But more often than not, they don't work. Yeah. So I had one start of this year was the SCG, the test, the fifth test, and And it just— we had 2 soundchecks the day before, both at like 6 AM, outrageous times to come in and sing for a soundcheck because you've got to come in before anyone starts working or the members come in or whatever. So in-ears, beautiful, work a treat, you can hear the track, oh so lovely, can't hear any of the thing around the stadium. Get to the gig and standing on the sideline, in-ears working No, I can't hear a thing. Are you serious? Absolutely can't hear a thing. Alright, we'll keep working on that.

Josh: Okay, well, you just saw him have a panic attack.

Josh: Yep. 2 minutes go down. How are those in-ears? Still can't hear a thing. Alright, 30 seconds to go. We're on in 30. What about the in-ears? Oh, they're not working. No, they're absolutely not working. Oh no. Like, can't hear a thing. So like, I'm like, get them working. It's not going to happen, mate. You're going to have to go with the fallback. Fuck off. So you got the fallback, the wedges in front of you. Yeah. So you had to pull your in-ears out? Pull your in-ears out, work with the wedges. And it's just about, you know, you know how you can focus on a sound? Yeah. Like there's a million sounds in here, but you can focus on one. That's what you have to do. You just have to get your ears attuned to that and just shut out everything else. Luckily, Josh Janson was in the audience singing and in time, and he worked as my reference point. So that's— and people don't know that. They really just go, He was shit or he was good.

Josh: And how did you feel once you walked off?

Josh: What's the feel? An overwhelming sense of relief that I got the lyrics right and I stayed in time and I went for the money note at the end and it came out.

Josh: So you actually know that because can you hear yourself? Do you feel like, I think it sounds okay, but I'm not completely sure? Or you actually sense that you were doing all right?

Josh: No, I sense I was getting through it. Yeah, that's about how Much, yeah. And what you want that experience to be is this sense of national pride and patriotism, and I'm the guy singing the anthem, I'm having a great time. And, you know, that one— I've had ones where it has been that, but that one was just a tough one. There's a really good one though recently of a mate of mine, Ben Clark, who I did tennis with, and he was on The Voice recently, and he did— I think it was a bledislo. Yeah, and he went for the most optional high note a man has ever gone for at the end of the anthem and totally nailed it and held it for an eternity. On Fox Sports, probably the day after, um, they've cut to the vision of it. And so this is the only time anyone's talking about the national anthem being really, really good. At the end of it, it's sort of Benny surprised himself, I think. And the footage is like, no one can see my face, but he's giving it like the sort of appreciative stank face. He's gone, "Like that?" So Fox Sports have done this thing on him and he's like, they're like, "He knew he got it. He knew he did." Player of the day.

Josh: Yeah, he's sort of player of the day.

Josh: He's like, "Yeah, he knew it was all over it." And they're all giving him heaps of props for it.

Josh: It's funny, there's certain things where you just don't expect props. And one of them was us landing in New York City on the Turkish Airlines flight. The person landed, so the pilot, I shouldn't say person, it was a The pilot landed.

Tommy: Highly trained. Highly trained. Is dedicated to his craft.

Josh: Landed so well, you wouldn't believe it. Everyone applauded at the end of the flight. I couldn't believe it. I was just like, I'm going to do it too. Because it was just— because the thing is, they have screens in the seats where you can watch the plane land. Like they've got a camera at the front. So you actually see the runways. Like a GoPro. Yeah, exactly.

Tommy: Same on my flight. That's one occupation where you really should be focused on outcome.

Josh: Landing that motherfucker. I thought you were going to say the cameraman. I'm like, no, they've got a mount.

Tommy: I had on my flight from landing in LA, it was sick. You're just like seeing him line it up and you just— it's amazing. You hit like the middle point.

Josh: Well, people actually like— because it didn't—

Josh: I could imagine that's what was happening. It was an applause.

Josh: An applause is pretty—

Josh: I love that. You know when you land in Israel? Yeah. With a— I think it's El Al is the Israeli airlines. Everyone applauses. Applauds. Applauds. Applauds. Yeah. Because we're back in the chosen land. That's amazing. We're like applauding that we are back home. Back home. Yeah, now that's, that's emphasis on the Jew of Jewish.

Josh: How do you, do you know when you're doing a performance in general, say when you're doing the musical, anything like that, do you, how do you sense how you're feeling? Is there certain things whether or not it was good or not? Yeah, whether it's good or not. And do you actually feel it? Because when I'm watching things things. Like when I actually watch a performance, I'm more interested in— like we watched ballet a few months ago and I was more watching it and thinking about how the performers were feeling and what they were like. I wonder if they're friends, I wonder like what's the relationship here, all that sort of thing. Like what's actually going on in your head when you're doing a performance?

Josh: Uh, well I sort of feel like the more that's going on in my head, the less chance I have of doing anything remotely good. Okay. I do my best shows when I'm in a complete state of trust. I trust that my voice is working really well. I trust that my scene partner or partners are vibing and playing. I know exactly what I want. In that scene as my character, and I just let it all happen. And some of those performances, and they're the ones that you kind of go, that was, that was a bomb, when you go, I've got no idea what happened out there. Yeah, don't remember it, don't really remember it. It's a flow, isn't it? Yeah, state of flow. And I reckon if you speak to any, uh, probably elite athlete or whatever, like Fed probably doesn't remember every part of some of those, you know, those '65 Wimbledon. I thought you said Feb, like, yeah, going back from '60 before he got absolutely wasted. What about though? And I think that's the important state. That's just, that's where you wanna be. That's complete state of trust. And then you literally are just living in the moment and allowing emotion to do the work.

Tommy: What about though, say if you, have you had this, an emotional role that it requires you to be really emotional and channelling those things? Have you had a fight before you've gone on stage and it's actually been a great outcome because of the, bad feelings before. Yeah, totally.

Josh: Like, um, uh, doing Beautiful, I mean, he's probably the most emotional role I've played. And there were times when, uh, when, yeah, things would happen off stage that, uh, would dictate, um, moments on stage. And, and, uh, and for a time there I was like, no, I can't let this get in the way. But, but after a while you just go, I'll just use that.

Tommy: Yeah, fuck it, I'm tired.

Josh: And I, and I need something.

Josh: I'm just going to use that. Oh yeah, they fucking left the seat up.

Josh: Yeah, yeah, and they just, they put it in a bank and then that fight happens 6 months later and they fucking refer to every little thing you've done, you know, okay, because you're perfect.

Josh: How do you actually use it? What is the— and it like, is it in the actual performance or like if you've got negative energy, can you use it on a positive?

Josh: Negative energy, I just say like, um, you know, something, uh, something, something really funny happened offstage, yeah, and you know, you're about to enter a scene where you fall in love with someone for the first time, there's an energy that— a playfulness, yeah, that's really warm there. And I mean, if you see the show, if you saw the show 5 times, you probably go, I didn't notice anything different, but it's just a truth that is running through my veins at that time that you can you can use.

Josh: Can you enjoy watching other shows, or are you constantly analysing things like a filmmaker?

Tommy: Saw that cut, shit cut.

Josh: Uh, no, no, no, no, I, I, um, I, I have, I, I, I have to watch shows and enjoy them. Yeah, for what they are. Occasionally when there's a role, they go, oh, I'd like to play that, I start watching a little bit analytically.

Josh: But I mean, I saw, um, poor leads just trying to do the performance, they just see you in the corner miming their words.

Josh: Well, To tell you the truth, I was sort of doing that when I saw Waitress yesterday because I'm auditioning for that in London at the moment. Oh, awesome. And good business doing a post on Instagram.

Tommy: We saw that.

Josh: I'll see how it goes. But I saw Dear Evan Hansen the other night and it's the best thing I've seen in ages. And I just sat there as a complete audience member, just mesmerised by everyone in it, the subject matter of the piece. The quality of the production, I was just like, this is why I've come to New York. It's pure inspiration of just going— because after doing a long run of a show, you're just so zapped that you go, the thought of doing a musical sometimes for— well, for me, that's how I felt. I just can't bear it. So coming to— like, my well has run dry on that front. Coming here, it's just this incredible fuel that that enters me that I don't get anywhere else. It's pretty magical space.

Tommy: And so tonight you're going to—

Josh: I'm going to see Beautiful. You're going to see Beautiful. So I've never seen it.

Tommy: You'll be judging the guy that plays you, won't you?

Josh: Well, it's funny. Evan is— has become a mate of mine online. Like when I first got cast, probably about 2 months into the run or something like that. But I contacted him online and we just started getting chatting. I remember we had this long, long chat. It sort of started at interval. I messaged him during interval of a show and then by 2 AM we were still sort of chatting. So we've remained friends and then we caught up the other night and we went to Broadway— took me to Broadway Bowling. Which I was trying to explain to you guys off air and they told me to shut up so we can play for this. So the community here is so strong. I mean, when you got that many plays and musicals, you just have this incredible community. It's not like that at home. So they've got all sorts of things they do. They, like, in the summer there's like, each team has a baseball team. Each team, each cast has a baseball team. And in the fall and in the winter they go into bowling. And so I was playing on the Carole King Pins. Carole King Pins! And I think we were up against The Play That Goes Wrong, which is a play here that's been running for a long time. And so each Wednesday they do this after the show and there's drinks and food and whatever. And you get to sort of meet people in different casts and it's really, really cool. So anyway, I'm going to see the show tonight. I can't wait. I wonder what happens. And then we're gonna have drinks and stuff afterwards, and I'll meet some people in the cast and sort of, which I did the other day, but more. And I'll, you know, it's just interesting to share experiences because, you know, no, even though it's the same show, no two experiences will be the same.

Tommy: So I think you'll have an appreciation for it because you know exactly what goes into it.

Josh: Totally. Every second. And Evan did say he's like, I'm gonna have to like, you know, do big vocal warm-ups and like being like on my best game. I'm like, no, mate, I'm not going to be there judging you all the while going, I'm going to have my binoculars. No, I, I just don't need to be like that. I just want to appreciate it. And, um, yeah, he's, he's a great guy. And I spent time with Chalina, who plays— well, she's on a break at the moment, but she, uh, she plays Carol. I had lunch with her and went out for drinks with her the other night. Um, and, um, yeah, beautiful, beautiful energy and just great, great human. So when you know someone well, or when I know someone well, I don't go into a show, um, looking to pick them apart. I go in sort of wanting to do the best job and being super proud of them for that job.

Josh: Um, so yeah. How can we be a better audience to musicals?

Josh: And how can we be a better audience to musicals? Stop heckling. Number one. Have you had a heckler? Oh yeah, in Beautiful I had heckles because he's such an asshole to her. Gee, that's—

Tommy: you know you're doing a good job if you've got a heckler.

Josh: It's a play, dude, it's not real. I had a guy in the front row.

Josh: We've got some serious pumping going on, some music.

Josh: A lot of Italy in the audience. He had a durag on. And I love any guy who has a durag. I just think it's the sickest thing.

Tommy: He's getting it done.

Josh: What's a durag?

Josh: The headpiece? Is it like— okay, yes, yes, yes.

Josh: It's beyond a— what's the other one called? Bandana. It's beyond a bandana. Yeah, it covers the full head usually. So I had a guy in the front row once. There's just this scene where he's cheated on her a couple of times and she catches him really and knocks on the door of the apartment of the woman he's sleeping with. And she comes out and she said, "Is Jerry here?" The woman goes, "No." And then Cherry walks out and he's like, "Is it the food?" Oh no, it's Cal. And when that happens, I stood at the doorway and a guy in the front row goes, "Oh, you're a fucking dickhead." Did you reckon he meant it? He was like, "Did that come out?" That was a brilliant one. I had a woman in—

Josh: Did it have a reaction from the rest of the audience? Do you remember?

Josh: He said it sort of not loud enough that people behind, like maybe row 2 and 3 could hear it. Just you. Certainly the musical director could hear him in the pit. And certainly me and Esther could hear him, who play Carol. And then there was one, an incredible one. It's the all-time best. Woman, front row of the dress circle, in a silent moment in that scene too, where not only has he sort of come out and he's, you know, done this, he's totally unapologetic about his behavior. And she just goes, "You're an asshole!" And like, the whole theatre just stopped and then erupted in laughter. And then I have the next line and Esther's looking at me like— About to laugh. I just couldn't cope with it. And it turns out, and then that day, it turns out for the like 3 or 4 days in the whole run, I had to give a speech afterwards for for another charity that I'm an ambassador for called Entertainment Assist. So that's so noisy. Yeah, it is. It's time, as we're in New York. Entertainment Assist is basically a charity that looks after mental health of everyone in the industry. So I had this opportunity to speak after the show. And I said, first things first, where, who and where is the woman who called me an asshole? And she was like, whoa, It's me! It's me! She's like, wanted her moment. I go, you? I want to meet you afterwards at stage door for a selfie. So yeah, so it turns out she owns a place just around the corner called Mrs. Palmer's.

Josh: Yes, I love Mrs. Palmer's. Mexican.

Josh: Oh, it's so good. So, so good. Jalapeños. So, so—

Tommy: I'm sold. I'm going there.

Josh: So, um, Yeah, she was a hoot. So I don't know how we got onto this topic.

Tommy: Oh yeah, audience, how can we make that? So we've learned how to get a selfie with Josh Damon.

Josh: Unless you own a chicken schnitzel themed sort of—

Josh: Or something equivalent. So listen to the intro that says turn your mobile phones off. Because there's nothing worse than you're in an intense scene or in a song or something, whatever, and the mobile phone goes off. Stand up at the end. Yeah, just stand up. The thing is, you have to leave the theater. Yeah, yeah, within about a minute of when you would have to stand up in the program. You're gonna stand up anyway, mate, so just stand the fuck up.

Josh: It's the opposite of the, the aeroplane rule where everyone fucking stands up straight away. Yeah, when we're not even at the gate. This is the opposite. This is not an airplane. You can stand, stand up sooner rather than later.

Josh: On Broadway, everyone always stands Yeah.

Tommy: To give a clap or to just say, "Thank you, that was great." Yeah, standing ovation.

Josh: But I think they also are aware that in 30 seconds' time they're leaving.

Josh: Yeah. I'm sure the Germans—

Josh: Oh, the Germans! They're uphearted. Yeah, exactly. They are up. The Germans are very efficient. They love to stand up and dance in the house. That would make audiences better. Yeah. Yeah. Don't use your mobile phone during the show. That's another one.

Tommy: Yeah, because does that throw you when you're seeing people in there? Like, are you—

Josh: Face lit up. Are you doing your head in?

Tommy: Like, oh, does this person even give a shit?

Josh: Yeah, I, you know, if it's an emergency or whatever, I totally understand it. But if you're just like—

Josh: It's hard to get that context.

Josh: If you're just there looking at the gramme or the facey, I must be really boring. Yeah. Like, I must be doing a terrible job.

Josh: I think it reflects more on the audience of like, and also the day and age that we're in where it's like people don't even even realise that they're doing it, right?

Josh: They're checking. Totally. Yeah, well, I've had a few, a few chats to performers here about, um, the sort of future of the business. Yeah, where's it going? And I did see something on the West End last week called Six, which was amazing, but it was 75 minutes, um, no, no intermission. It's a long time. No, that's short. No, that's short. I mean, it's like normally it's— I could not, mate.

Josh: Normally an hour and 15. The last musical that Tommy went to is actually the ones where the school, you know, they have the school performances and the the, uh, the actors come, like, do the tour. Have you actually ever done that? The tour where the actors go to schools and they do like a performance on bullying? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Josh: They go— they're short, they're short. Sort of, sort of like, um, was it— was it Henry the Giraffe? Yes, yes.

Tommy: No, what was his name? Um, Harold. Harold.

Josh: Harold the Giraffe. Harold's done. Yeah, he's done.

Tommy: When I was in New Zealand, I saw the Harold like a funeral. No, no, well, they're all dead now, but there was a place with all of the vans of Harold over there. It's all done.

Josh: Is that when you were stricken?

Tommy: No, no, no, that was actually recently when I was there with my wife and baby. A lot different times.

Josh: So, but they're not— it's not short like a little school performance?

Josh: Like, so it's normally, uh, 2 and a half hours with intermission. So, uh, normally a 70-minute act and a 60-minute act and a 20-minute intermission. So to go just one through 75 minutes as a sort of new thing is basically because they're just going, people don't have the attention span. Yeah, totally. I understand.

Tommy: It's a long time. I mean, the only reason I wouldn't look at my phone is because I paid so much money to be there. That's half the time. I want to get my money's worth.

Josh: But the other thing about that is, shit or not, what I'm interested in is a producer's going to go, all right, well, the cost of that ticket, it's 70% of the cost of a normal running musical because, you know, you're only there for 75 minutes. But can we then do a 2 PM, 6 PM, and 8:30? Ah, they want the name. Or 9 PM? Or like, is that how we do it?

Josh: Do you think it's gonna be good for the industry?

Josh: Well, if it means that we go from doing 8 performances a week to doing 12 or 13. Yeah. I'm sort of scared about where that can go. I thought you were gonna say, "I'm going on strike." Yeah, I just don't want it to be like the performer can be an absolute robot. Yeah.

Tommy: Yeah. 8 a week. What day are you doing 2?

Josh: What day is that? Saturdays? Wednesdays and Saturdays. Yeah. Wow. So yeah, so that already is a lot to do 8 a week for a year or 2 years or how many years people do it for. But Yeah, I have scary thoughts about the 12, 13, 14 show week.

Josh: Well, the amount of energy it just takes, you'd all— you just have to have a revolving door of talent, wouldn't you?

Josh: Yeah, you'd want to have some shows off a week. Yeah.

Josh: Awesome. Josh Pittman, mate, thank you for spending your time in New York City just to hang out with us. So good.

Tommy: I love watching. You know what?

Josh: We got to a lot of stuff there.

Tommy: Yeah. You know, this podcast is that whole essence of what you said, progress. Progress versus outcome. The progress, like us doing this and going through the energy of the show, if we want to call it that. It is called the Daily Talk Show, so we'll call it the show. But you do, you feel different energies. You're singing one minute, like we've gone through so much. It's great.

Josh: Enjoy the rest of your trip, mate. And so what's next? You're off to London or Melbourne?

Josh: I'm actually off to Italy. Oh, awesome. For 12 days. Sick. Horrible. Horrible. It'll be hideous. You guys have just been there. Yeah. And I can't wait because I've never been to Italy as an adult. Oh, really? I think I was 8 or something when I went. And I'm just exploring and hopefully falling in love in every city. Like, I want to have that fantasy of like, bonjour, and then sort of like singing Italian to her. And she sort of— everything happens in slow-mo, and there's a vineyard in the distance, all that kind of stuff. So I hope that— I'm in 5 cities, so I hope that happens 5 times. And then I'm back to London for a few weeks. For some more auditions and stuff. Awesome. Thanks, mate.

Josh: It's The Daily Talk Show. Hi@TheDailyTalkShow if you want to send us an email, or you can cheque out our Reddit too, reddit.com/r/TheDailyTalkShow. Have a good one. See you guys. Thanks, guys.